1 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: I just have to say that my thirteen year old 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: self is dying. 3 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 2: I'm Susie Danacarum. 4 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 3: And I'm Jessica Bennett. 5 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 1: This is in Retrospect, where each week we revisit a 6 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:19,760 Speaker 1: cultural moment from the past that shaped. 7 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 2: Us and that we just can't stop thinking about. 8 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: Today, we're talking to Jane Pratt, the woman behind Sassy, 9 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: an iconic teen magazine that shaped a generation of nineties girls, 10 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: including us. 11 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 2: Jane Pratt, thank you so much for joining us today. 12 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 3: I am so excited to be here. 13 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:37,879 Speaker 1: I think I told you a story that I will 14 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,639 Speaker 1: start with, which is that when I was I think 15 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 1: I was a freshman in high school, I went to 16 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,480 Speaker 1: boarding school, as did you. I went to boarding school 17 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: in Connecticut, to a much less prestigious school than Jane did, 18 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: for the record, and. 19 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 3: I was barely surviving at mine. 20 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 4: By the way, the whole impetus for Sassy magazine came 21 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 4: out of what a loser I was at that school. 22 00:00:57,160 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: I was not the coolest either, but I was in 23 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: My sister was at Barnard and I came to town 24 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: to visit her, and she knew how much I love. 25 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 2: Sassy, and she was like, you know, what let's go visit. 26 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: And she took me to the offices and we just came, 27 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: which is a crazy thing for us to have done, 28 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: and we just went to the front desk and my 29 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: sister was like, this is my sister. She's obsessed with Sassy. 30 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: And I don't remember the names of anyone, but everyone 31 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: was so nice to me, like they gave me a tour. 32 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: I think they gave me like copies of the magazine. 33 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: It was just this really formative experience for me, and 34 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: I just thought, oh my god, this is so cool, 35 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: like this is what people get to do for a living. 36 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 2: So I feel like I should thank you for that. 37 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,919 Speaker 4: I actually have a recollection because I was basically living 38 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 4: in those offices at that time. I think it was 39 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 4: when we were one time Square. Yeah, and we had yep, 40 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 4: we had like a neon Sassy when you when you 41 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 4: got off the elevator. That was our big fancy look. Yeah. 42 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 4: And I remember Andrew Lynnette, who worked at the front 43 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 4: then and then became a beauty editor and then went 44 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 4: on from there. I remember her telling me that when 45 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 4: I was in a meeting, this girl and her sister 46 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 4: had come by the offices. 47 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 3: So I think it might that was. 48 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 2: Ah, oh my god, that's so amazing. 49 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 3: Isn't that crazy? 50 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 2: What a full circle moment this is for me? 51 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: Who Yeah, it really was so special, and I think, 52 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: you know, it really speaks to just what Sas was. 53 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: It was just this really accessible place for girls to go. 54 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: It felt like a community more than even a magazine, 55 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: which really did feel ahead of its time. So let's 56 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: start at the beginning, just for people who might not 57 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: be as familiar with Sassy as I. 58 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 2: Clearly, you famously. 59 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,839 Speaker 1: Became the editor of Sassy magazine in nineteen eighty seven 60 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: when you were just twenty four years old, which blows 61 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: my mind because what I was doing at twenty four 62 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 1: was not running like an iconic magazine, and I think 63 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: that made you the youngest editor in history at that time. 64 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 2: Tell me how it happened. 65 00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 3: You know, it's so funny. 66 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 4: My daughter is now turning twenty one this week, and 67 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 4: so I too, now have contact with people that are 68 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 4: the age that I was on a pretty regular basis, 69 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 4: And I mean it seems crazy to me now too. 70 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 4: At the time, I thought, God, I've been out of 71 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 4: school for a year and a half and I haven't 72 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 4: gotten this magazine start yet, come on, this is crazy. 73 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 2: You felt like you were behind the eight ball behind. 74 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 4: Really seriously, I was really agonizing about But it was 75 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:31,920 Speaker 4: really the foresight of the original president of our publishing 76 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 4: company that was based in Australia, who saw that someone 77 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 4: young could actually be more adept at accessing the way 78 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 4: that young people talk to each other and better able 79 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 4: to produce this magazine for teenage girls. So my age 80 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 4: actually was helpful to me. But I knew so little. 81 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 4: I just knew nothing, because what happened was there was 82 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 4: word out that this Australian publishing company was interested in 83 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 4: getting into the American market, and they were interested in 84 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 4: the teen market in particular. So I was like, well, 85 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 4: that is exactly what I've wanted to do since I 86 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 4: was fifteen years old. So I made up a whole presentation. 87 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 4: I accidentally in my presentation I did a fake editor's 88 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 4: letter and I said something about Panda bears instead of 89 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 4: Koala Bears for Australia. 90 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 3: I'll never forget, oh my god. 91 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 4: But I did a whole presentation of what the magazine 92 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 4: would be if I were to do it. 93 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 3: And I also. 94 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 4: Remember that in the meeting with her with Sandr Yates. 95 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 4: She asked me something about what causes I supported, and 96 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 4: I had just recently given some money to Nayral, the 97 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 4: National Abortion Rates actionally and I mentioned that to her, 98 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 4: and because I kind of wanted to be right up 99 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 4: front with who I was and what I was going 100 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 4: to do with this magazine if we got to do it, 101 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 4: and she was really supportive of that, and so anyway, 102 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 4: from there, I got a chance to start it, and 103 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 4: I hired a bunch of people, mostly slightly older than me, 104 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 4: but you know, but all within the same age range 105 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:08,799 Speaker 4: for the most part, So like a group of kids. 106 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: I'm curious, did it feel like an enormous amount of 107 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: pressure or were you so young that you had the 108 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 1: confidence of not knowing the way you didn't know? 109 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 4: Thank you, Thank you for recognizing that. I mean, I 110 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 4: was ballsy. And then, funnily enough, when I went to 111 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 4: start Jane Magazine, which was you know, nobody needs to 112 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 4: know about this. 113 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 3: But it was. 114 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 4: It was maybe eight years later than that, after Sassy 115 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 4: had been going on that long, I did not have 116 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 4: the same confidence. 117 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 3: It took me so much longer to get it going. 118 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 4: But this was just one of those like, yeah, I 119 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 4: deserve this I have a good idea, let's get it 120 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 4: out there. 121 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: How did you conceive of the magazine at the time, 122 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: because one thing I think about a lot is how 123 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: much intention we ascribed to art in retrospect, right, and 124 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 1: often I think lots of things happen by instinct, and 125 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: I'm curious for you how much of this was just instinct. 126 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, it was very verre cause oriented. I remember from 127 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 4: very early days talking to Christina Kelly, who was one 128 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 4: of my first hires as an editor there, and I 129 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 4: remember us saying, well, we don't know that this magazine 130 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 4: is going to be around forever, and that's not our goal. 131 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 4: Our goal is to really make an impact on society 132 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 4: with what we're doing. And at that time, Reagan was 133 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 4: president and I have just been able to vote I 134 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 4: think twice at that point, so I was, you know, 135 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 4: that's how young I was, right, Yeah, but I remember saying, well, 136 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 4: we could have with what we're doing here, we could 137 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 4: have an impact on the next election, because they're all 138 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 4: they're not that age yet, but they will be. Because 139 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 4: it was fourteen to nineteen year olds that we're gearing 140 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 4: to it, and so it was always about changing the 141 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 4: world like that was always the goal, and that was 142 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 4: very intentional. 143 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: And how did you conceive of the subject areas or 144 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: the coverage areas. I know, for example, you referred to 145 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: your sort of three most popular writers as sex, drugs, 146 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: and rock and roll, which I love. 147 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, yep. Christina was rock and roll. 148 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 4: Catherine was drugs because she did all the kind of 149 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 4: nitty gritty like reporting stuff, hardcore reporting. And Karen Ketchpoole 150 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 4: was sex because she wrote about sex in a very 151 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 4: open way. I hired her from Australia. She was one 152 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 4: of the few people I brought over from there because 153 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 4: it was really hard to find somebody in this country 154 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 4: at that time. This sounds insane, but who could write 155 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 4: so openly to women about sex and even I mean, 156 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 4: you would think that's crazy. You would think Cosmo had 157 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 4: been out for many years, but particularly for this age group, 158 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 4: so there was just no There wasn't even sex information 159 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 4: for girls out there. There was no birth control, there 160 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 4: was nothing like that. 161 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: That's interesting because I feel like, of course Cosmo existed, 162 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: but Cosmo was still. 163 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 2: Very geared towards landing a man, like so much of 164 00:07:58,360 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 2: the stuff that was out there. 165 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: There are the other teen magazines at that time were 166 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: really focused on how to be thin, how to get 167 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: a boyfriend, how to sort of make yourself this very stereotypical, 168 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: almost nineteen fifties ideal. So was that something you were 169 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: really conscious of or was that just not what you 170 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: were interested in? 171 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 4: I was extremely conscious of it. And it's funny because 172 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 4: in thinking about talking today and thinking about what am 173 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 4: I proud of, and a lot of what I'm proud 174 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 4: of with Sase is what we didn't put in. I 175 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 4: had a list of mandates to all to anyone writing 176 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 4: or contributing that included things like, you know, no diets, 177 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 4: no calorie counts. 178 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 3: If a reader a lot of what we did. 179 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 4: Were there advice columns in the magazine, So if a 180 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 4: reader wrote in and said my crush has been ignoring 181 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 4: me or whatever, nobody was allowed to assume that that 182 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 4: crush was a boy. 183 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: I mean, but that's a big deal considering sort of 184 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,599 Speaker 1: the context of the time. Reagan's America was not particularly 185 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: LGBTQ friendly, right right exactly? And the voice, the voice 186 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: was so specific and irreverent. Is it something that you. 187 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 2: Sort of did consciously or were you just like, this 188 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 2: is the way I talk. 189 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 4: I knew that I really wanted to be completely different 190 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 4: from what was out there, but it was intentional. Then 191 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 4: what I would do is I would hire a lot 192 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 4: of people that were not writers, but I liked their 193 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 4: personalities and what they had to say, and I would 194 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 4: just have them speak and record it and transcribe it. 195 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 3: Oh interesting, and yeah. 196 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 4: That was easier than hiring people who had been at 197 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 4: other publications because they were in that mode often of 198 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 4: having been trained to do things like use the words 199 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 4: tresses and locks and seb. 200 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 3: Hair and all that kind of stuff. 201 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 4: So it was easier to just get somebody who just 202 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 4: talked and had good things to say. 203 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: I know this is probably an impossible question, but there 204 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: were so many I on the cover, is do you 205 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: have a favorite? 206 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 4: It would be hard to say that I have a 207 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 4: favorite cover because and I don't have a collection assassin, 208 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 4: so it's not like something I look at regularly, but 209 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 4: it'll pop up when they're on sale on eBay or 210 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 4: whatever and make me wish that I had saved them 211 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 4: because they're worth a lot more now. But I would 212 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 4: say that every single issue that I look at has 213 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 4: battles that went into it that I remember vividly. Whether 214 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 4: it was the quirkier looking model that was on the 215 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 4: cover that I had to fight for and to be 216 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 4: able to run this cover with this cover model that 217 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 4: didn't look conventional, to the point where readers in the 218 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 4: early days would write in and they would say, we 219 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 4: know you're just getting started, but maybe soon you'll be 220 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 4: able to afford the good models that the other magazines use. 221 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 2: What are some of the battles you remember most. 222 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, there were tons of them. The very first issue 223 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 4: had the word sex on it. It was so you 224 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 4: think you're ready for sex? Read this first? And I 225 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 4: thought that was very, very tame. I actually didn't love 226 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 4: that cover line because I thought it could be a 227 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 4: lot more enticing than that. 228 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 3: I thought that's pretty measured. 229 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 4: But we went with that in a compromise, and that 230 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 4: was hard to get through because of the fact that 231 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 4: people weren't talking to teenage girls about sex at that time. 232 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 4: I remember also a cover where this is one where 233 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:37,839 Speaker 4: I ended up losing the battle even though I thought it, 234 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 4: which was putting a black model on a cover that 235 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 4: was one of our traditionally bigger selling months, and finally 236 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 4: getting it pushed through to where we got permission to 237 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 4: have the black model on the cover of Sasse, and 238 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 4: then the publisher, I guess, got cold feet and they 239 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 4: put on the newstand copies. Polly bagged a copy of 240 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,839 Speaker 4: a beauty booklet with a white model on the cover. 241 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 3: On top of that, Oh my god. 242 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 4: So on the newsstands. Yet it didn't. It didn't come 243 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 4: out on the newsstands the way that it was intended. 244 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 2: How did you react to that? 245 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 3: It was terrible. 246 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 4: I think that we we this isn't the this doesn't 247 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 4: paint me in the best light. But I think that 248 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 4: a few of us we went to the press quietly 249 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 4: and leaked that this had happened because we thought that 250 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 4: they should be called out for it. So I think 251 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 4: it came out somewhere the Village Voice or something like that. 252 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: It's interesting that you sort of say it doesn't paint 253 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: you in the best light. But to me, what it 254 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: speaks to is that even as the editor in chief 255 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: of the magazine, you didn't have the power to change that. 256 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 2: That was the only way you could do it. 257 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 3: You had to be. 258 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 4: Subvertinate, right, right, absolutely, that's absolutely right, And there was 259 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 4: a lot of that, and probably my age might have 260 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 4: hurt me in that regard or my lack of experience 261 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 4: might have hurt me in that regard because I didn't 262 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 4: necessarily know all of the ways that all of that 263 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 4: worked to be able to get in there and make 264 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 4: things go exactly my way. But there were battles constantly. 265 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 4: I was thinking too about people now talk a lot 266 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 4: about that Kurt and Courtney, Kurt Cobain and Courtney love cover. 267 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 2: Yes, that's I think the most iconic sassy cover. 268 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 4: It's so funny because that was a battle too, because 269 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 4: I remember going into my meeting with the publisher, the 270 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 4: president of the company and having to pitch Kurt Cobain 271 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 4: as basically I've hated him to be like one of 272 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 4: new kids on the block or backsheet. 273 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 3: Boys like. 274 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 4: That. 275 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 2: He would have hated it. 276 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 4: And yes, he would have hated it, but that was 277 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 4: what I had to do to get them to accept 278 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 4: it and to say it's going to sell really, really 279 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 4: well and moms are going to love it. 280 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 3: And all this kind. So we got we got permission 281 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 3: to do that. 282 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 4: It did not sell particularly well at the time, but 283 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 4: it had as definitely stood the test of time, that's 284 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 4: for sure. 285 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: How did it come to be, Like, how did you 286 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: have the idea. How did you approach them about it? 287 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: Were you there for the shoot? 288 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 2: What was it like? 289 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 4: Christina Kelly, who was the music entertainment editor, she was 290 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,199 Speaker 4: talking to the photographer Michael Levine and he had photographed 291 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 4: Courtney Love and he had photographed for us as well 292 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 4: for Sassin. So Courtney said to him that she loved 293 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 4: Sassin magazine and would he consider photographing her for that 294 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 4: And he came to us and we thought that was 295 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 4: a great idea, and to do it with Kurt would 296 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 4: be even better. I did not go to the photo shoot, 297 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 4: but I remember right when that came out, when that 298 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 4: issue came out, I got a phone call from a 299 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 4: friend of mine who worked at Rolling Stone at the time, 300 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 4: Chris Connelly, and he called me after right when that 301 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 4: issue came out, and he said that at the photo 302 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 4: shoot it was so obvious in the writing that Kurt 303 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 4: and Courtney were doing drugs. And did I think it 304 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 4: was irresponsible of us to run that story, and especially 305 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 4: in a magazine for teenagers without disclosing that they were 306 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 4: doing drugs? And was it journalistically sound? I thought, you 307 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 4: run that story, which I thought was really interesting. But 308 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 4: the funny thing was I had to tell them that 309 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 4: we didn't know they were doing drugs. We were very naive. 310 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 4: We were kids, really, so we hadn't done those drugs 311 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 4: and we didn't know much about them, and we didn't 312 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 4: so anyway, we just ran it as a love story 313 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 4: between Curtin Gordon. 314 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: One of the most famous things that came out of 315 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: the Sassy era was it Happened to Me, which is 316 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: a column that you carried over when you went to 317 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: Jaine magazine and you had at Exojane, which was the 318 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: digital publication you eventually launched. Why do you think that 319 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: sort of first person, confessional style of writing resonated so 320 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: much with the audience for Sassy. 321 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 4: I was carefully reading all of the other teen magazines 322 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 4: as I was getting ready to launch Sassy, and I 323 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 4: knew that when I read these articles that they were running, 324 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 4: particularly the more serious subjects, I would zone out and skim. 325 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 4: When it came to doctor so and so from Harvard 326 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 4: Medical School advises you to do da. 327 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 3: Da da da dah. 328 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 4: So I thought, what teenagers are going to trust is 329 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 4: someone else their age who's going through it and telling 330 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 4: them about it, not someone who has a degree or 331 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 4: is considered an expert, and so I said, why don't 332 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 4: we have a column called it Happened to Me where 333 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 4: it's strictly first person, and we don't clean up the language, 334 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 4: we don't make it sound magazini. We just leave it 335 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 4: the way that they wrote it and keep it raw 336 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 4: and so that they'll know that this is really real. 337 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 3: And was a true experience. 338 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 4: And I actually had to get my sister to do 339 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 4: the first one because nobody was reading it, of. 340 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 2: Course, so you had no submissions. 341 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 4: We had none, and then then we got overflowing submissions 342 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 4: after that and all coming through the US mail, but 343 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 4: tons and tons of people's stories, and so she was 344 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 4: my first one writing about her abortion, which was also 345 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 4: very controversial. The advertiser who was opposite that they were 346 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 4: not happy. 347 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 1: Someone one said that you foresaw the dawn of the 348 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: age of oversharing, And I think that is sort of true, right. 349 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: Something I've thought a lot about is how Sassey predicted 350 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: the self confessional era we live in now, and it 351 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,160 Speaker 1: explored the impact of trauma even before that was part 352 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: of the vernacular or the way we just like talk 353 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 1: about things. Why do you think that was something you 354 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: were so drawn to? 355 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,159 Speaker 4: I think It comes from being that isolated boarding school 356 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 4: student who felt really really alone in what I was 357 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 4: going through, and any media that I would turn to 358 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 4: for solas would make me feel more alienated because I 359 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 4: wasn't being reflected in it. You know, I didn't look 360 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 4: like those girls. I thought about other things that they 361 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 4: were not talking about. So I think that that's where 362 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,360 Speaker 4: it came from, is just how good it can make 363 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 4: someone feel to hear somebody else's true story that they 364 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:17,719 Speaker 4: are over sharing. 365 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 2: Right. It's just being able to see yourself in the. 366 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,199 Speaker 4: Work, Yeah, and being able to not have shame and 367 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 4: be free to say whatever you want. It's that basic, really. 368 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 2: But at times I feel like there's been criticism of that. 369 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 3: Right. 370 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 1: I think Slate once called it the first person industrial complex, 371 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,199 Speaker 1: and I think especially you know, with the rise of 372 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 1: the digital age, there's more cost of that sort of 373 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: confessional work because now women get harassed online. Have you 374 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: thought about that and how you respond to that criticism? 375 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 4: Yeah, that came up more at Exojane also because it 376 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 4: was digital, and so we were getting more and more 377 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 4: backlash about things that we would run that could be 378 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 4: hurtful to maybe not the person that was over sharing. 379 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 4: But someone else who was implicit in it or something 380 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:12,360 Speaker 4: like that. At the same time, I do still believe 381 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 4: in the idea of people being that open and the 382 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 4: benefits that come from that. So I don't stand behind 383 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 4: every single thing that we published. There was some stuff 384 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 4: that really ended up being really hurtful to people that 385 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 4: I wish we hadn't done, But I still believe in 386 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 4: the concept and I think that it's more good than bad. 387 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 4: And there's a section in the new publication that I'm 388 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 4: working on that goes even deeper. Oh interesting, So yeah, 389 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 4: that takes it even one step further than it happened 390 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 4: to me. 391 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting, right, because it's an authenticity. 392 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 4: Yes, there's nothing I like less than fake authenticity. And 393 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 4: even the word even someone calling something authentic is already 394 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 4: it already feels like, uh oh, that's already probably big. 395 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 3: So I really think it's. 396 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 4: So important to keeping it really real and raw for 397 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 4: all of us, because everyone's going through stuff, and just 398 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:12,439 Speaker 4: to have it out there in the real way I 399 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 4: think is so just so so therapeutic. 400 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: It is interesting, though, because it is so much of 401 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: what we sort of think of as social media now. 402 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 1: Although I think a lot of social media. Is that 403 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 1: performed authenticity versus real authentic. 404 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 4: Yes, right, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, absolutely. 405 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: Like I do think one of the reasons we don't 406 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: see things like SAS and Rookie is that they've been 407 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 1: to some degree replaced by influencers or content creators. 408 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 2: And that's not necessarily bad. 409 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,400 Speaker 1: I mean, that is really young women talking to each 410 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 1: other in the same way that SAS did to some degree. Right, 411 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: in some ways it has inherited that ethos, but it 412 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: doesn't create community in the same way. 413 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 4: That's right, you know you just because I was just 414 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 4: thinking that, I was just thinking that I really do 415 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,959 Speaker 4: appreciate the people that are out there who are being 416 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 4: truly real about who they are and getting an audience 417 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 4: for that and influencing in all those good ways. 418 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 3: I really appreciate that. 419 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 4: At the same time, I feel like that is it's 420 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 4: not what I've ever been interested in, because it's not 421 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,439 Speaker 4: what I needed back in those days and still not 422 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 4: what I need. Whereas I feel like I need community, 423 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 4: I need to be able to then respond back and say, well, 424 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,679 Speaker 4: this is my reality, and have us all kind of 425 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 4: group together and come to some mutual understanding. 426 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 3: Maybe it was going to Quaker schools when I was 427 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 3: a kid. That got me. 428 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 4: But that part of it, that component of the community 429 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 4: where it isn't just all of us listening to one 430 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 4: person and what they think, because that's not the point. 431 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 4: It's not what that person thinks or feels or went through. 432 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:57,360 Speaker 4: It's all of us together. 433 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: There is just this generation of women where SASE really 434 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 1: was such an iconic influence, right. I mean, women collect 435 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: the magazine, they trade them. Barnard now has every issue, 436 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,120 Speaker 1: it has an official archive. It really has had this 437 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: enduring influence. And I'm wondering what you think that is, 438 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 1: why it really has captured the imagination of that generation 439 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: of women in the way that it has. 440 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,400 Speaker 4: Man oh Man, I think that it was how really, 441 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 4: again I go back to this, but how real it was. 442 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,400 Speaker 4: How we were when we were producing SAS, We were 443 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 4: living every word. I could practically recite for you every 444 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,679 Speaker 4: single article that came out over the first number of 445 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 4: years of SAS and everything that we did. We were 446 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 4: really involved in it our selves, elves. It was never 447 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 4: talking about something, it was always living it and reporting 448 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,199 Speaker 4: on it. From that perspective, and I think that still 449 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 4: has a rawness to it when you read it, it's 450 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 4: still kind of surprised, is some of it is still 451 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 4: surprising even so many years later, and even with so 452 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 4: many people doing that same kind of voice. 453 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:19,199 Speaker 2: It really does hold up. 454 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I went back and looked at old is Shoes, 455 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 1: and I mean, I'm sure there are things you regret, right, 456 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: like any editor does from a certain period of their career. 457 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,680 Speaker 4: God, yes, but for the most part it holds up 458 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 4: right absolutely. 459 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 3: I think it really does too. 460 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 4: And then there were also the little subversive things we 461 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 4: would do that are just funny. Like we would make 462 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 4: up a slang word just to see how because we 463 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 4: knew that seventeen magazine was copying us, so we'd make 464 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 4: up a slang word and start calling everything that were 465 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:49,399 Speaker 4: daggy or whatever. 466 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 3: It was like an early one that we took. 467 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 4: And we would do that and see how long it 468 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 4: took for a to show up in seventeen usually about 469 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,919 Speaker 4: three to four months because of the lag time with 470 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 4: publication at that point. 471 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 2: Okay, that's hilarious. 472 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, we were. 473 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,880 Speaker 4: Doing a lot of little inside stuff like that too, 474 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 4: which is just funny. There's a lot to read between 475 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 4: the lines there, I'll say that. 476 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 3: And so that keeps it interesting. 477 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 4: I think it was also it was truly a no 478 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 4: judgment zone and very very open, and I think that 479 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 4: still carries a lot of weight. I do think also 480 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 4: the fact that we knew that we were the first 481 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 4: ones to run a lot of the kinds of content 482 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 4: that we ran, and that for doing it for teenage 483 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 4: girls was really controversial, And so when the moral majority 484 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 4: got a hold of it, and a group of women 485 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 4: that were part of that, called Women Aglow, they went 486 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 4: out and they went to newsstands and told them they 487 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,360 Speaker 4: wouldn't shop there if they carried Sassy magazine, and they 488 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,639 Speaker 4: had these little note cards they all were basically the 489 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 4: same thing on that were sent in mass to our 490 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 4: advertisers saying that they wouldn't buy their products if they 491 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 4: advertised in Sassy Magazine because of things we did, like 492 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 4: stories on gay teenagers, all kinds of things like that. 493 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: I mean, it's still hard to run ads against a 494 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: lot of these kinds of topics, right, I mean, I 495 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: think that's one of the things we're seeing. 496 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 4: It really is crazy to me, in looking back at 497 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 4: all this how the society has made so many inroads 498 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 4: in terms of acceptance of gender fluidity, queer rights, all 499 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 4: of that, but how the stuff geared towards women and 500 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 4: stuff involving women is still it just moves at a 501 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 4: snail's pace and keeps going back. 502 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: I see kind of the landscape, and it's hard to 503 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 1: kind of understand why we don't have voices like Sassy 504 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: or even Rookie. 505 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 4: Now. 506 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: I mean you were actually listed as the fairy godmother 507 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: of Rookie, right, so you were involved in that as well. 508 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,959 Speaker 2: But those voices for girls, it feels like we have 509 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 2: less of them as time goes on. 510 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,640 Speaker 1: And you know, with the recent sale of Jezebel, why 511 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: do you think it is such a challenge? 512 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 3: It is really something. 513 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 4: And when I learned about Jezebel, I was so bummed 514 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,880 Speaker 4: out because that just showed me once again how far 515 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 4: we have not come, and the fact that I think 516 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 4: that an issue there was the advertising not being there 517 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 4: to support it, but the readers were certainly there to 518 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 4: support it. And I think that it's that model that 519 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 4: in the advertising world we're still dealing with, for one thing, 520 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 4: a lot of men, a lot of white men in 521 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 4: particular older who just don't get that that actually can 522 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 4: work and can appeal to people who actually do buy things. 523 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 4: As a matter of fact, the company that I worked 524 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,479 Speaker 4: for at SASE bought Miss magazine to make it their 525 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 4: second publication way back when I remember the subscription only. Yeah, 526 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 4: because of the advertising battles with that. 527 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: It's interesting because I was running the newsroom Advice when 528 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter happened, and one of the things we 529 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 1: found that despite the fact that all these companies were, 530 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: you know, espousing their support for Black Lives Matter, when 531 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: it came to advertising dollars, they still didn't want to 532 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,880 Speaker 1: be around a lot of the content we were creating around it. 533 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: And I think that's something that's pretty invisible to the audience. 534 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,360 Speaker 1: You can still have a lot of traffic, you can 535 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,679 Speaker 1: have a big audience, but if the things you're writing 536 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: about don't feel brand safe to the brands, it really 537 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 1: doesn't make a difference. And I think that's why we're 538 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: actually seeing the ecosystem for really interesting, voicy digital brands 539 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: contract in the way we are, because even if there's 540 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: an audience for some reason, brands are just really nervous 541 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: about being around it. And I don't know that I 542 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:44,719 Speaker 1: can think of a good solution for that, you know, 543 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: I mean that just feel, I guess it's subscriptions, but 544 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: that is really challenging, right, It's a challenging market for that. 545 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 3: That's right, That's right. 546 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 4: And I do think it's subscriptions or it's selling your 547 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 4: own products through your publication or one of those other 548 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 4: revenue streams, because the advertising model doesn't allow for what 549 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 4: Jezebel did, for what SASE did for all of that. 550 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,679 Speaker 4: Still still if you tried to come out with the 551 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 4: Sase now, would still have I think many many of 552 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 4: the same battles. 553 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: Do you think it's also because it's hard to pinpoint 554 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,160 Speaker 1: what exactly it means to be a publication for women now. 555 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 4: Yes, And as a matter of fact, that's just one 556 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,959 Speaker 4: little part of my new project, which I actually wanted 557 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 4: to do back when I started Jane Magazine, but it 558 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 4: wasn't able to because it was it was ad supported. 559 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 4: So with that, I had to be able to present 560 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 4: to advertisers that it was a demographic of women eighteen 561 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 4: to forty nine, that kind of thing. But I've wanted 562 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 4: to ever since then do a magazine that is not 563 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 4: gender based, and so that's actually one of the things 564 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 4: I'm working on now. And so it's not geared toward 565 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 4: any specific gender and at the same time, and the 566 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 4: next battle that I want to wage is about age, 567 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 4: and this particularly does hurt women, I think, but in general, 568 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 4: I think that it's ridiculous that when you read something 569 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 4: or learn something about someone within the first paragraph, is 570 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 4: their age almost always why? 571 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 3: Why is that significant? 572 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 4: And I think the same way that the gender thing 573 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 4: is finally getting broken down and people taking control of 574 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 4: that themselves, I think that the same thing is going 575 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 4: to happen with age, where it'll just be considered not 576 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 4: cool to mention someone's age. 577 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 2: I love that. I feel like it's especially for women. 578 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 2: You can really be aged out of a lot of 579 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 2: things in. 580 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: A way that absolutely doesn't feel consistent with how we 581 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: experience age anymore. Like the world has changed so much 582 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: in terms of how you experienced life that I mean, 583 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: I love so many teen things and. 584 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I don't know, I don't want to be 585 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 2: aged out of that. So I'm very excited to see 586 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 2: what you do next. Does it get harder? I mean 587 00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 2: I think about this a lot. 588 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: When you've had so much success at such a young age, 589 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: is it harder to sort of do things without worrying 590 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: that You're not going to be able to recreate the magic. 591 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 4: Definitely, it does, and I think that in some ways 592 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 4: I won't recreate what Sas was and what it was 593 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 4: for that audience at that time. But I'm still always 594 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 4: surprised when I look at, for example, what the project 595 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 4: I'm working on now, when I look at it compared 596 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 4: to what's out there, I'm still surprised that I can still, 597 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 4: at this old age, I can still shake things up 598 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 4: and do things that nobody else is doing. So I'm 599 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 4: happy about that and happy to be able to do 600 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 4: that and to get the chances to keep doing it. 601 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 4: It is kind of remarkable, But it does get harder. 602 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 4: As I said, starting Sase, I think I got that 603 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 4: launched in a couple months. Cut to Jane Magazine a 604 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 4: couple of years, cut to Exo Jane five years. Each 605 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 4: subsequent project does get more. Yeah, gets just there are 606 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 4: more questions around it. 607 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 2: Well, I can't wait. I know it's going to be amazing, Jane. 608 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: I am going to end speaking of age with a 609 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: party trick I know you're famous for, which is that 610 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: you can. 611 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 2: Tell people what their emotional age is. So I'm so curious. 612 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: God, if yours is still fifteen, and what you think 613 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:19,479 Speaker 1: mine is? 614 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 4: This is such a great question. Okay, mine is still fifteen. Absolutely. 615 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 4: My daughter, who is chronologically twenty one, is way older 616 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 4: than I am at this point, especially, but I have Okay, 617 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 4: so now let me key in because I haven't been 618 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 4: doing it and it is something I have to get 619 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 4: in the mindset up. I want to say that you Okay, 620 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 4: let me. Let me just take a moment. I could 621 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 4: see you being also a teenager, but slightly older than me, 622 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 4: So I would give you about seventeen. 623 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 2: I like that. 624 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 4: I mean, because you're still you still definitely have that 625 00:31:58,480 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 4: teen thing. 626 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I would give you. Does that ring 627 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 3: at all? That feels very right. Yeah. 628 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 4: So you're my slightly older friend. You're like a little 629 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 4: wiser than I am. You can help me. 630 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 2: I love it. 631 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: I love being the slightly older friend, which is crazy 632 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 1: because I feel like Sassy Magazine was my cool older friend. 633 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 2: So that's a perfect way to end it. Jane, thank 634 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 2: you so much for doing this. It really was so 635 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 2: lovely to have this chat with you. 636 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 3: Thank you and thank you for doing this amazing podcast. 637 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 3: I love it. 638 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:33,719 Speaker 1: Jess, what do we have coming up next week? And 639 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: is it something you would have read about in sase? 640 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 5: Yes, actually it probably was. And also Why I Am, 641 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 5: which I also read it is about lip boss. 642 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 1: Oh I hope we get some really good product placement 643 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: out of that. 644 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 3: I mean, honestly me too. 645 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 5: We could use some lip glass. 646 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 3: But this is really about lip bloss as. 647 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 2: A symbol of teen girl bonding. 648 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 3: So we're going to go a little deeper. 649 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 2: This is in Retrospect. Thanks for listening. 650 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 1: Is there a pop culture moment you can't stop thinking 651 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: about and want us to explore in a future episode. 652 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 1: Email us at inretropod at gmail dot com or find 653 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 1: us on Instagram at in retropod. 654 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 5: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us 655 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 5: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you 656 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 5: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram, 657 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 5: which we may or may not delete. 658 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett 659 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books Feminist, 660 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: Fight Club and This Is eighteen. 661 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 5: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and the Media. 662 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 5: Lauren Hanson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our 663 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 5: engineer and sound designer. Emily Meronoff is our producer. Sharan 664 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 5: Atia is our researcher and associate producer. 665 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our 666 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stemp and Katrina Norbel. 667 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: Our artwork is from Pentagram. Our mixing engineer is Amanda 668 00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: Rose Smith. Additional editing help from Mary Do. We are 669 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: your hosts Susie Bannacharum. 670 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 5: And Jessica Bennett. We are also executive producers. For even more, 671 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,720 Speaker 5: check out in retropod dot com. See you next week.