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Speaker 1: I really was determined when I got out into the

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Speaker 1: journalism world that I would try to tell stories in

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Speaker 1: a more humanistic way so that I wasn't perpetuating that

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Speaker 1: very narrow view of success or that very narrow minded

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Speaker 1: in my view value system, that it's all about winning

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Speaker 1: and excellence.

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Speaker 2: It's winning or nothing.

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Speaker 3: This is the Reform Sports Project, a podcast about restoring

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Speaker 3: healthy balance and perspective in all areas of sports through

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Speaker 3: education and advocacy. Hi, this is Nick Bonacor from the

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Speaker 3: Reform Sports Podcast. Today, I'm speaking with Karen Krause, Award

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Speaker 3: winning journalist, acclaimed author, and former collegiate swimmer at the

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Speaker 3: University of Southern California. A New York Times sports writer

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Speaker 3: for sixteen years, Karen first entered the world of newspaper

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Speaker 3: reporting when she joined the Savannah News Press, where she

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Speaker 3: was the first woman to work in its sports department.

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Speaker 3: In twenty eighteen, Karen released her book Norwich, One Tiny

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Speaker 3: Vermont Town Secret to Happiness and Excellence, which explains how

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Speaker 3: a small town in Vermont has prioritized holistic athlete development

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Speaker 3: over performance and has produced more Olympians per capita than

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Speaker 3: any other place in the country. As a result, Karen

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Speaker 3: and I discuss how youth sports has become hyper competitive

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Speaker 3: as opposed to communal, the lesson she learned as a

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Speaker 3: Division one collegiate swimmer, and how damaging it can be

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Speaker 3: to wrap your identity in athletics. I got another awesome guest.

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Speaker 3: She is someone I've spoken with several times. It's been

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Speaker 3: a few years since we really hopped on a call together.

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Speaker 3: I'm excited to reintroduce her to the audience. She is

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Speaker 3: known by a lot of folks out there in sports

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Speaker 3: and journalism, and she's an author. She's a journalist and

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Speaker 3: all around. She's a former swimmer. She may still swim,

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Speaker 3: but she's a collegiate swimmer, and she's a bad a.

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Speaker 3: She's awesome, So I'm really fun to have her Karen Kraus. Karen,

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Speaker 3: thanks so much for hopping on Nick.

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Speaker 2: It is my pleasure and privilege.

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Speaker 3: Honestly, Well, I appreciate you, and I want to listen

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Speaker 3: how we got connected going back. Obviously a lot of

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Speaker 3: people know I partnered with Octagon the Olympics in Action

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Speaker 3: Sports Division, in particular Peter Carlisle and his team. They

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Speaker 3: represent a number of obviously Olympians. One of them being

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Speaker 3: Michael Phelps and if I'm not mistaken, I know you

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Speaker 3: covered MP for a while and maybe you still do.

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Speaker 3: But you know, through that relationship with Peter, who I

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Speaker 3: had on the podcast, you know, he was like, listen,

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Speaker 3: you gotta you gotta speak to Karen Krause. I mean,

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Speaker 3: she was also an athlete, but more importantly, she wrote

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Speaker 3: this crazy awesome book about you know this this town.

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Speaker 3: She I think you grew up there in Vermont Norwich

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Speaker 3: and and there's like the most athletes per capita of

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Speaker 3: any state. I believe her city in the country can

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Speaker 3: kind of get into the book. I'd love to hear

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Speaker 3: about it.

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Speaker 1: First of all, you know, I need to send my

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Speaker 1: check to Peter for being my my unpaid publicist.

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Speaker 2: I do appreciate his shout out.

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Speaker 1: And I am actually working on a project with Michael

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Speaker 1: we have. He's doing his mental health health memoir, and

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Speaker 1: I am super excited about that.

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Speaker 3: That's awesome.

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Speaker 1: He's been really open and honest to the detriment at

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Speaker 1: times of his own mental health and telling his story

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Speaker 1: and struggles. So really looking forward to that seeing the

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Speaker 1: light of publication. But anyway, yes, I actually did not

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Speaker 1: grow up in this tiny town in Vermont. I had

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Speaker 1: never stepped foot in Vermont.

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Speaker 3: Before I put my foot in my mouth on that one.

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Speaker 1: No, no, but it was What happened was when I

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Speaker 1: finally did visit this town, very tiny town across the

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Speaker 1: river from Dartmouth, I immediately felt at home in a

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Speaker 1: crazy way, because even though I grew up in California

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Speaker 1: in Santa Clara, a place everyone now knows thanks to

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Speaker 1: the Silicon Valley Revolution, the Tech Revolution, and the forty

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Speaker 1: nine ers moving their base there, but in the seventies

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Speaker 1: when I was growing up there, it was still very

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Speaker 1: much an agrarian place. We had orchards right across the

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Speaker 1: street from our subdivision. A bunch of my friends would

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Speaker 1: pick apricots every summer, you know, that would be their

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Speaker 1: summer job.

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Speaker 2: It was just very much not like it is.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty much the opposite of what it has become.

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Speaker 1: So when I spent time in Norwich, I immediately felt this

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Speaker 1: affinity to this place because it started out as an

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Speaker 1: agrarian town and has maintained that. Not that culture, but

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Speaker 1: the ethos, the agrarian ethos that you know, we're all

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Speaker 1: in this.

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Speaker 2: Together, we have to stick together.

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Speaker 1: And help everyone because you know, life is tough and

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Speaker 1: nature is unpredictable.

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Speaker 2: So that was what in many.

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Speaker 1: Ways, I felt like I had lived there forever when

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Speaker 1: I had been there less than forty eight hours. So

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Speaker 1: I went to the town just because I had heard

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Speaker 1: someone had emailed me when I was working at The

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Speaker 1: New York Times and said, you should check out I've

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Speaker 1: been reading your stories from the twenty fourteen Olympics.

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Speaker 2: You should check out this town in Vermont.

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Speaker 1: That Hannah Carney, who was a gold medalist in twenty

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Speaker 1: ten in Mogul's skiing and was competing defending her title

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Speaker 1: in twenty fourteen. So this person had been watching her

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Speaker 1: in the Olympics and said, you should go to Hannah's hometown.

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Speaker 1: It has produced, you know, more Olympians per capita than

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Speaker 1: any town in America. And so I kind of went

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Speaker 1: there with this jaundiced view of, oh, so this is

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Speaker 1: some kind of like a sport factory, you know, like

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Speaker 1: a Bradenton img Academy in Tampa or something like that,

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Speaker 1: where this is the whole purpose of the community is

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Speaker 1: to create these pro athletes and nurture them. What I

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Speaker 1: found was it could not have been further from that.

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Speaker 1: It was they almost produced these Olympic athletes accidentally. The

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Speaker 1: whole idea people live there. It's very isolated, not easy

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Speaker 1: to get to. Anyone who has been to Dartmouth knows that.

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Speaker 1: And so if you live there, you really want to

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Speaker 1: be there. I mean, it's not somewhere you accidentally end up.

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Speaker 3: Well, I grew up. I grew up in that interrupt you.

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Speaker 3: I grew up in Connecticut, and I got to tell

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Speaker 3: you that the climate is not exactly what I would

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Speaker 3: consider to be the most favorable.

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Speaker 1: And that actually is part of the story. Because the

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Speaker 1: winters are terrible there. You have to be a hearty

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Speaker 1: soul to survive them. And so what I found among

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Speaker 1: these vermonors is they're like.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, we have a choice.

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Speaker 1: We can be house bound for four or five months,

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Speaker 1: or we can just get out in nature and be.

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Speaker 2: Hardy and tough it out.

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Speaker 1: And enjoy the winter wonderlands such as it is.

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Speaker 2: And so that's what they do during the winters.

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Speaker 1: Every Wednesday, the kids are let out of school after

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Speaker 1: a half day so that they can go ski. There

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Speaker 1: were these schime programs where the parents were the instructors.

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Speaker 1: It was you know, free, everything was it was very egalitarian,

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Speaker 1: one for all, all for one. And the thing that

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Speaker 1: was most impressive to me, perhaps is that I'm.

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Speaker 2: Sort of used to sports being seen as a zero

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Speaker 2: sum game.

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Speaker 1: For my child to succeed, your child must fail, and

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Speaker 1: that it's very competitive, cutthroats, so like I want to

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Speaker 1: get all the metals, my child needs to get all

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Speaker 1: the trophies.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's sort of this.

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Speaker 1: That it's become very competitive as opposed to communitarian or

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Speaker 1: a communal or collaborative.

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Speaker 3: The word that's coming to my mind to interrupt you intent,

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Speaker 3: like people signed their kids up with intent. It sounds

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Speaker 3: like what you experienced or saw at Norwich was it

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Speaker 3: almost complete opposite.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, so much so that when I moved there for

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Speaker 1: six months, while I was reporting the book.

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Speaker 2: And I had very early on, I went to.

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Speaker 1: An exercise class and one of the other women in

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Speaker 1: the class said, oh, are you that New York Times

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Speaker 1: reporter here to do a book, And I said yes,

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Speaker 1: actually I am.

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Speaker 2: Oh, well you need to meet so and so because

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Speaker 2: her son is an upcoming mogul skier.

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Speaker 1: And it was almost as if in Norwich, one child's

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Speaker 1: success is everyone's success, so people would brag on other

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Speaker 1: people's children.

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Speaker 2: I mean, everyone bragged about Hannah.

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Speaker 1: They all felt so proud of her achievement because they

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Speaker 1: looked at it not as her parents' success, but the

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Speaker 1: town's success.

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Speaker 2: And they all felt as if they.

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Speaker 1: Had watched her grow up and watched her develop and

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Speaker 1: had been part of her story. And so it was

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Speaker 1: just this great, very again communal, generous spirit that reminded

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Speaker 1: me so much of Santa Clara when I was growing

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Speaker 1: up and in the seventies.

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Speaker 2: When I was growing up in Santa Clara, it was.

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Speaker 1: The swimming mecca, not only in the United States, but

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Speaker 1: arguably in the world.

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Speaker 2: And that was exactly.

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Speaker 1: How I felt when when someone would do well at

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Speaker 1: the Olympics or when a national title, everyone would be

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Speaker 1: so excited because it was like, that's our person from our.

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Speaker 2: Neighborhood that did that.

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Speaker 1: So I definitely saw that I saw people putting their

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Speaker 1: kids into sports so that they could develop social skills,

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Speaker 1: so that they could make friends, so that they could.

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Speaker 2: Get outside in the winter. They were not.

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Speaker 1: Doing it so that they could become then next Hannah

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Speaker 1: Carney or the next you know whoever. It was very funny.

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Speaker 1: Two of the Olympians there were eleven Olympians between nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty and two thousand and fourteen eleven Olympians from a

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Speaker 1: town of fewer than three thousand people, so you know,

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Speaker 1: it's crazy. And two of the Olympians were Summer Olympians,

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Speaker 1: including Andrew Reading, a track runner who competed in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and eight and twenty and twelve in Beijing and London.

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Speaker 1: And his mother was so funny, she said, you know, Karen,

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Speaker 1: after the book came out, she said, it's the craziest thing.

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Speaker 1: You just like, are this parent who just lets your

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Speaker 1: child go and do whatever they want. Some might even

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Speaker 1: call you neglectful, and you get a book written about you.

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Speaker 2: So you know, they were the opposite of helicopter parents.

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Speaker 1: Once their child found his or her passion, they were

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Speaker 1: so partive, but not you know, it wasn't that they

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Speaker 1: weren't chasing external goals, It was more intrinsicals. We want

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Speaker 1: you to develop a lot of these tools for your toolbox,

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Speaker 1: you know, self discipline, dedication, goal setting, you know, delayed gratification,

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Speaker 1: all these things.

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Speaker 2: That you learn through sport. We want you to make friends.

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Speaker 1: We want you to get outside instead of playing video games.

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Speaker 2: You know, after school.

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Speaker 1: All of this played into their sports participation, and yet

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Speaker 1: they become quite successful at it.

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Speaker 2: Two of the well.

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Speaker 1: Actually three of the athletes were ski jumpers, and two

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Speaker 1: of them are the best ski jumpers that America has

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Speaker 1: ever produced. And the one learned ski jumping because the

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Speaker 1: older of the ski jumpers knocked on his door one day.

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Speaker 1: They were like ten or eleven and said, Hey, I

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Speaker 1: have these skis for jumping, you want to come jump

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Speaker 1: with me? And that's how the kids started. And they

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Speaker 1: were competitive, I mean, clearly they were competitive. They were

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Speaker 1: the best jumpers we produced, so they were absolutely going

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Speaker 1: up against each other all the time, but in a

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Speaker 1: healthy way. They were making each other better as they

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Speaker 1: competed and trained together. So it was just such a

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Speaker 1: It's easy to become jaded about the Olympic movement, especially

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Speaker 1: in the wake of the twenty fourteen Olympics, and it's

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Speaker 1: only gotten worse since then. But think of the twenty

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Speaker 1: fourteen Olympics were held in so Chy, a winter Olympics

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Speaker 1: that was held in a climate where it was actually

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Speaker 1: the same climate as South Florida at this time.

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Speaker 2: You know, it was just seaside.

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Speaker 1: Resort that putin created an Olympics almost as stage craft

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Speaker 1: for his own agenda, and we held an Olympics there

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Speaker 1: for reasons that only the IOC.

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Speaker 2: Knows for sure, and it was.

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Speaker 1: Just this Really it was easy for Cynics to just say, Okay,

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Speaker 1: the Olympics.

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Speaker 2: Have jumped the shark.

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Speaker 1: Now it's just become it's lost all of its values.

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Speaker 1: And then I wander into this town where the values

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Speaker 1: that I really hold dear, why I value sports and

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Speaker 1: sports participations so much.

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Speaker 2: We're still very much in evidence and being practiced.

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Speaker 1: So it really restored my faith in sport and elite

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Speaker 1: sport to a large degree. Now, my timing probably couldn't

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Speaker 1: have been worse. They have not produced an Olympian since

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Speaker 1: Hannah was the last in twenty ten and fourteen, so

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Speaker 1: I hope I didn't jinx the town. But they're also

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Speaker 1: the tension of that is, you know, they're dealing with

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Speaker 1: the center of the winter sports scene in America. Used

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Speaker 1: to very much be the East coast Lake Classid because

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Speaker 1: of all of the facilities created for the eighty Olympics,

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Speaker 1: and now because of weather patterns, people are going out

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Speaker 1: to Utah to Park City and now they have the

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Speaker 1: big ski jumping area from the two thousand and two Olympics,

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Speaker 1: and you know, they just feel like it's better snow

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Speaker 1: and more predictable snow. So the center of the center

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Speaker 1: of the winter universe in America has shifted westward, and

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Speaker 1: that has probably impacted Norwich along with a bunch of

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Speaker 1: other factors that are in play.

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Speaker 2: You know, Americans can see it just in their own lives.

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Speaker 1: But there were just so many positives that I found

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Speaker 1: in Norwich that I think are lessons for us all if.

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Speaker 2: You know, we're paying attention. But I just am not

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Speaker 2: sure that America on a large scale is willing.

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Speaker 1: To change its value system, because that's what really you

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Speaker 1: need to shift the value and the culture from an

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Speaker 1: extrinsic reward system valuing the metals and the trophies and

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Speaker 1: the Olympic spots and professionalism and you know, money too well.

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Speaker 1: I want to value all of the experiences gained from

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Speaker 1: participating in athletics, all of the intrinsic benefits that you

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Speaker 1: can get from sport.

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Speaker 2: I'm such a.

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Speaker 1: Fierce proponent of the intrinsic benefits because for those people

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Speaker 1: who see sport as a zero sum game, they would

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Speaker 1: look at me as a failure I'm a loser because

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Speaker 1: I devoted ten years of my life to swimming, you know,

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Speaker 1: hours a day for most of those ten years, and

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Speaker 1: was a walk on at USC So I didn't even

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Speaker 1: get an athletic scholarship out of the deal.

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Speaker 2: I never made a national team. I certainly never even

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Speaker 2: sniffed an Olympic berth. So, gosh, what a loser I am.

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Speaker 1: And yet I could not say more vehemently how much

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Speaker 1: I disagree with that notion, because the lessons that I

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Speaker 1: gained from those that decade in sports I carry with

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Speaker 1: me to this day.

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Speaker 2: I'm sixty years old and.

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Speaker 1: Not a day goes by that I don't use one

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Speaker 1: of the tools I added to my toolbox during that

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Speaker 1: decade in swimming to positive effect, whether it's goal setting, discipline.

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Speaker 1: Even with the manuscript I was telling you about, I

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Speaker 1: had a time where I had to really grind and

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Speaker 1: get a rewrite in by a specific time, and it

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Speaker 1: was just like being in winter training and swimming. I

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Speaker 1: had to just you know, focus and zero in on

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Speaker 1: the task and was able to do it. And that's

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Speaker 1: all because of my swimming background. So I just feel like,

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Speaker 1: when we make it all about.

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Speaker 2: The extrinsic rewards.

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Speaker 1: We're setting up most of the kids that get into

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Speaker 1: sports to feel as if their failures are they wasted

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Speaker 1: their time. And that's so terrible because there's so much

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Speaker 1: value to sports beyond the medals and trophies and records

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Speaker 1: that frankly, ten or twenty years from now, nobody remembers.

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Speaker 1: You know, even Michael Phelps, as great as he is,

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Speaker 1: and he's the greatest, there's going to come a day

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Speaker 1: where people aren't going to remember who he is.

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Speaker 2: But you know, I have friends that I met.

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Speaker 1: Fifty years ago in swimming that are still in my

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Speaker 1: inner circle. And if you would dissect our lives, you

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Speaker 1: would say, how on earth do you people even know

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Speaker 1: each other?

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Speaker 2: You have such desparate lives.

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Speaker 1: But that bond in that developmental stage and sports was

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Speaker 1: so strong that it's withstood fifty years of maturation and

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Speaker 1: divergent experiences and whatnot.

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Speaker 2: So I'm just a huge proponent of.

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Speaker 1: Sports for sports sake, not for all of these bells

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Speaker 1: and whistles.

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Speaker 2: That people are espousing daily.

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Speaker 3: I can feel so many different things that you're saying,

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Speaker 3: especially from the teammate perspective, the experiences you know and

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Speaker 3: here you are. You know, you've been working in sports,

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Speaker 3: if I'm not mistaken, most or all of your you know,

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Speaker 3: professional career as a journalists and of course as an author.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I remember when we left off, you know,

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Speaker 3: way back, you had mentioned you had interviewed if I'm

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Speaker 3: not mistaken, Urban Meyer, and you know you talked about how,

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Speaker 3: you know, he was a big proponent of kids sampling

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Speaker 3: and playing different sports. He loved, you know, recruiting multi

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Speaker 3: sport athletes. But I feel like, you know, that is

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Speaker 3: such a challenging circumstance because as you mentioned, there is

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Speaker 3: or as I mentioned, there is this level of intent.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's not just you know, I take my

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Speaker 3: kids to his eight year old baseball team, and you know,

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Speaker 3: he's my fourth I've six, so I have three older

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Speaker 3: so I have been through it before where I'll go

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Speaker 3: to the car and sit and watch the practice, or

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Speaker 3: I'll come back and get them. I don't want to

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Speaker 3: stand by the fence. I don't want to do those

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Speaker 3: things because I want him to have his time with

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Speaker 3: his teammates, create that bond, you know. But at the

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Speaker 3: same time, there's the intent, right there's parents that aren't experienced,

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Speaker 3: they don't have any idea. They might not have been

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Speaker 3: an athlete themselves, and they think they need to be

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Speaker 3: all up. It's do or die in that moment. So

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Speaker 3: to circle back, like where and how do if we

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Speaker 3: have coaches like urban Meyer and there's so many that

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Speaker 3: I've interviewed who love the diversity, they love their well roundedness.

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Speaker 3: Why is it that you know it's such a challenge.

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Speaker 3: Do you believe, you know from your experience of interviewing

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Speaker 3: all these athletes and coaches that they feel the need

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Speaker 3: to have to concentrate in one thing so early? Is

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Speaker 3: it just because this pressure, this external I have.

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Speaker 1: A definite view on this, and it's such a wonderful question, so.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for it. This is my take.

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Speaker 1: I think that youth sport has become a cottage industry.

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Speaker 1: And you have all of these people who have seen

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Speaker 1: the economic gain to be made through youth sport and

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Speaker 1: through sort of exploiting every parent's you know, desire to

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Speaker 1: do what's best for their child, to help their child succeed,

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Speaker 1: to be successful and happy, et cetera. And right after

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Speaker 1: my book was published in twenty eighteen, that draft, JJ

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Speaker 1: Watt tweeted out, you know something like seventy percent of

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Speaker 1: the players drafted in the first round of that than

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Speaker 1: eighteen draft had done multiple sports through high school. And

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Speaker 1: JJ Watt tweeted.

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Speaker 2: This stat out and I would have to check. I'm

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Speaker 2: just saying at the top of my head, so I

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Speaker 2: could be mistaken, but it was will above fifty percent.

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Speaker 2: And he added, anyone who.

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Speaker 1: Tells you that your child needs to specialize doesn't have

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Speaker 1: your child's best interest at heart.

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Speaker 3: I remember that, and.

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Speaker 1: I immediately tried to get him a book of Norwich,

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Speaker 1: you know, the Norwich Book through he.

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Speaker 2: Was then with the Pexans.

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Speaker 1: But his point is so spot on that think about it.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you've already had your eight year old. You've

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Speaker 1: had people approach you and say, well, you know, if

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Speaker 1: he just got a little extra coaching, like I could

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Speaker 1: work with him once a month on his hitting and

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Speaker 1: he would be much better.

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Speaker 3: Once a month, it's well like I could like it

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Speaker 3: once a week and more like that.

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Speaker 1: Well, there you go, and they're not volunteering their time.

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Speaker 1: That's one hundred dollars a pop or whatever it is.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's what's happened.

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Speaker 1: This has become a whole cottage industry with a lot

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Speaker 1: of people trying to see how can I make money

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Speaker 1: off of parents desires for their children to be happy successful.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to say they're praying on parents.

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Speaker 3: You know, some of them are. Some of them are

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Speaker 3: praying on them.

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Speaker 2: But I think it's a question worth asking.

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Speaker 1: When you have a coach who says, well, okay, if

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Speaker 1: your child wants to play basketball and will miss our

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Speaker 1: off season baseball conditioning program, well, you know that's fine,

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Speaker 1: but I don't allow anyone on my.

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Speaker 2: Team that misses off season conditioning.

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Speaker 1: As a parent, ask yourself, does this person have my

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Speaker 1: child's best interest at heart? Just ask the question that

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Speaker 1: JJ Watt was posing in not tweet, because if you

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Speaker 1: think about it.

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Speaker 4: It's either a control move by the coach or they

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Speaker 4: want you to be all in for reasons that have

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Speaker 4: to do with numbers, money.

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Speaker 2: You know, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I just really truly believe in what JJ was saying

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Speaker 1: there that before the age of twelve at least, I

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Speaker 1: think kids should be able to try a number of things.

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Speaker 2: And I'll give you two examples. So Michael. Everyone thinks

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Speaker 2: that Michael was this.

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Speaker 1: Child prodigy swimmer and he was setting national age group

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Speaker 1: records at ten and under, eleven, twelve, et cetera. But

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Speaker 1: until he was twelve he was also playing football, baseball, soccer.

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Speaker 1: He played other sports. And in my book Andrew Reading

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Speaker 1: the track Star that I mentioned earlier, he played soccer

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Speaker 1: for many years before or he he came to.

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Speaker 2: Track quite late in high school.

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Speaker 1: Actually, and he also played basketball on his high school team.

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Speaker 1: Not because he loved basketball, mind you, but because he

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Speaker 1: was the tallest player. He was the tallest student in

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Speaker 1: his class. So the basketball coach begged him, will you please.

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Speaker 2: Come out for basketball? I need you in the paint.

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Speaker 1: So Andrew hated basketball because he did not like getting

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Speaker 1: jostled under the paint. He did not like that contact

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Speaker 1: under the basket.

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Speaker 2: He was the center who had come out and shoot threes.

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Speaker 1: But a funny thing when he started competing in track,

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Speaker 1: guess what when he got boxed in on those you know,

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Speaker 1: fifteen hundreds, he knew how to create space for himself

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Speaker 1: because of his experience in basketball. So in this way,

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Speaker 1: this other sport that he had done and not really loved,

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Speaker 1: but he realized, wow, this really gave me. This served

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Speaker 1: me well for what I ended up loving. There were

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Speaker 1: skills that I developed on the basketball court that are

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Speaker 1: absolutely directly helping me on the track.

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Speaker 2: And I think that Jordan speech.

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Speaker 1: I covered the PGA Tour for almost a decade, and

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Speaker 1: Jordan played baseball before, along with golf and basketball, and

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Speaker 1: he said the same thing. There are so many things

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Speaker 1: there's like cross training that it doesn't it seems maybe

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Speaker 1: even counterintuitive at times, but there really are skills that

439
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 1: you can develop in one sport that will help you

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Speaker 1: immensely and another sport that aren't immediately obvious. Like you

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Speaker 1: could say, well, all the running in soccer would help

442
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: you if you then become a track runner.

443
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 2: Well duh. But there are things that are more subtle.

444
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 1: Than that, like playing under the basket and then finding

445
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: yourself on the track trying to.

446
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,120
Speaker 2: Get you know, free and clear of the field.

447
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:17,679
Speaker 1: So I just don't think you can ever go wrong

448
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 1: by playing and trying different sports, no matter what you

449
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:28,639
Speaker 1: eventually end up in. But for the traveling teams, and

450
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 1: there's so much money to be made in these leagues,

451
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really crazy.

452
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 2: When you look at the money that is being.

453
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: Made through traveling softball leagues and volleyball leagues and all

454
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: of these tournaments where people are traveling to complexes that

455
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 1: were built specifically for these purposes, where there are eight fields,

456
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 1: and you know, it's just it's really insanity if you

457
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: think about it.

458
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 3: When we come back, Karen and I discussed why early

459
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 3: on in her journalism career, she set a goal to

460
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 3: tell athlete stories in a more humanistic way. Welcome back

461
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,439
Speaker 3: where we left off. Karen and I were about to

462
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 3: talk about athlete identity and mental health and why having

463
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 3: a narrow view of success is incredibly limiting. But at

464
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 3: the end of the day, Karen, with all of your experience,

465
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 3: you know, covering and obviously being an athlete yourself, I mean,

466
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 3: you kind of sell yourself short as far as your career. Mean,

467
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 3: you did swim at one of the biggest and most

468
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 3: notable institutions.

469
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 1: Sure, I'm very proud of it, but I have even

470
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 1: talked about my experience, and of course I'm traveling in

471
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: a world of Olympians and world record holders, and even

472
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: on my team at USC there were people who look

473
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 1: their noses down at me because like, what have I

474
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 1: ever it?

475
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 2: She I'm a.

476
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: Nobody in the ways that it mattered to them in

477
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 1: terms of I was not a record setter.

478
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 2: I was not a gold medal you know. We even

479
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 2: had on my team in nineteen eighty.

480
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 1: Olympic gold medalist, which given that the US boycott.

481
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 2: It is not a given on US teams at the time.

482
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 2: But it was an Australian distant swimmer.

483
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 1: So it just it's a mindset, and I never it

484
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 1: doesn't bother me because I understand where they're coming from.

485
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 1: They're coming from a very narrow version of success. Sports

486
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: is only worth doing if you become the best at it.

487
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 2: And I was lucky enough to grow up in Santa.

488
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: Clara, which was very much like Norwich in the nineteen seventies,

489
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: where you know, if you grew as a person, people

490
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: would embrace just your own improvement, you know, your self improvement.

491
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 1: People absolutely saw how I went from a very timid,

492
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: shy nine year old to a very self assured, you know,

493
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 1: high school senior. I owe all of that to swimming.

494
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: It gave me self confidence, It gave me resilience and

495
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 1: you know the knowledge that I could overcome adversity, that

496
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: adversity would not define me.

497
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 2: That it's not.

498
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: Whether you fail, but it's how well you get back

499
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: up afterward. All these things that made me a much

500
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 1: you know, better, more confident human being I gained.

501
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,239
Speaker 2: Through swimming, and people celebrated that.

502
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: It wasn't like, oh, you know, we love you because

503
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: you're the best in your high school or whatever.

504
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 2: And so then I got.

505
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: To USC where I saw a very different value system

506
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 1: in play, and it's like, okay, fair enough, that's your

507
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: value system, but that's not my value system. And I

508
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: really was determined when I got out into the.

509
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 2: Journalism world that I would try to tell.

510
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: Stories in a more humanistic way so that I wasn't

511
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: sort of perpetuating that.

512
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 2: Very narrow view of success or that.

513
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: Very narrow minded, in my view, value system that it's

514
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: all about winning and excellence.

515
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 2: It's winning or nothing, you know, all or nothing.

516
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: I did not have the career that Michael Phelps did

517
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: by any measure, but I got everything that I needed.

518
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 5: Out of swimming to become a functional human being in

519
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 5: our society and to live a meaningful life as an adult.

520
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: And when I was working with Michael on this project,

521
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: I would often say to him, you know, I don't

522
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: say this lightly. I'm kind of glad I was a

523
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 1: mediocre swimmer because I see all of the challenges he

524
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: faced as someone who from his teenage years was seen

525
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: as the champion swimmer. So a lot of the developmental

526
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: stages that you and I take for granted, he never

527
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: really got to ex experience because people from a very

528
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: young age saw him only as a performer and not

529
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: as a person.

530
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 2: I never had to worry about that, Nick, I knew

531
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 2: that if someone liked me, it was because of me.

532
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: It wasn't because of what I my time was in

533
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: the hundred fly So.

534
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 2: It was a bit of a gift, actually, you know,

535
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 2: he said, Karen, imagine that from the time.

536
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 1: You're fifteen, you can never make a first impression on

537
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 1: anyone because everyone you meet thinks they already know everything

538
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 1: about you.

539
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 3: I can't even imagine.

540
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: Can you imagine how the stabilizing that can be when

541
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: you're a teenager trying to figure out who you are sure,

542
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: and you can't even do that because everyone is already

543
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: reflecting back to you their version of you.

544
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, for God's sake, I'm forty three. I feel like

545
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 3: I'm still trying to figure myself out in many ways,

546
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 3: you and me both.

547
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's just you know, there's again, there are

548
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: trade offs and everything and I think that I'm so

549
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,959
Speaker 1: very thankful for my experience as a walk on at

550
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: USC because being around all these marvelous athletes was so

551
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 1: illuminating for me, because I saw how the sausage was made,

552
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: and I saw how they in some ways felt boxed in.

553
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 2: By the image, you know, like they were.

554
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: The girls next door, like, oh, just had everything going

555
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 1: for them.

556
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 2: They want the athletic lottery and they have this swimming

557
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 2: gift and oh they're so great, but it didn't allow

558
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 2: them to be humans.

559
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 1: So they felt like, oh, I can't make mistakes, I

560
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 1: can't fail, because.

561
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 2: Then I am not. I am letting down the people

562
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 2: who have this image of me and Bully. It's its

563
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 2: own kind of prison, isn't.

564
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 6: It to have such a you know, narrow image that

565
00:32:55,200 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 6: you feel you have to uphold, and for people like Michael,

566
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 6: for Simone Biles, that's just magnified a hundred times.

567
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 2: And when you see that and you hear.

568
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: Their stories and kind of put yourself in their shoes,

569
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: beyond the glamour part of it, of like, oh, they

570
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: get into all these VIP areas and they get to

571
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: go on all these shows and all these people want

572
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 1: them to be brand ambassadors, and when you get beyond

573
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 1: that and see what their day to day lives are,

574
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: you don't wonder how they have suffered the struggles they have,

575
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 1: but wonder why more people.

576
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 7: Like them don't because it almost seems as if it's

577
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 7: unavoidable because the images that they are expected to uphold

578
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 7: are unsustainable.

579
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 3: Man, I can talk to you for a long time,

580
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 3: and we're going to do this again. Where can people

581
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 3: find your work and how can they connect with you

582
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 3: to dig deep? And also, of course, you know, get

583
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 3: into Norwich and purchase your book.

584
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: Sure, so I would always advise you to find your

585
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: favorite independent bookstore and call them, or you can even google,

586
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: you know, independent bookstores order online.

587
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,320
Speaker 2: But as a last resort, there's.

588
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 1: That thing called amaz n dot com and you can

589
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 1: find my book there.

590
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 2: In January of twenty twenty four.

591
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 1: A book on ghosts writing with the figure skater Gracie Gold,

592
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 1: a twenty fourteen Olympian and bronze medal winner, is coming out,

593
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 1: so they can look for that.

594
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 2: But yeah, I would really love.

595
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 1: To have more people reading Norwich and then get their feedback,

596
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 1: get better indifferent.

597
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 2: I love it.

598
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 3: Karen Krause, Thank you so much. For your time coming

599
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 3: on sharing. I love your passion, love your energy, and

600
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 3: I just can't thank you enough for taking the time.

601
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 3: I know you're very, very busy and you have a

602
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 3: writing schedule, and just can't thank you enough for coming on.

603
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 2: Oh it's my pleasure, Nick, anytime.

604
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 3: That's Karen Krause, Award winning journalist and acclaimed author.

605
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 8: Thanks for listening to the Reform Sports Project podcast. I'm

606
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 8: Nick Bodacor, and our goal is to restore a healthy

607
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,240
Speaker 8: balance and perspective in all areas of sports through education

608
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 8: and advocacy.

609
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 2: For updates, please follow us

610
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,320
Speaker 8: On Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, or check out our website

611
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 8: by searching for the Reform Sports Project