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Speaker 1: Killer reads the Nancy Grace Book Club today. A Likable

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Speaker 1: Woman is a brand new book by May Cobb, and

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Speaker 1: this is how it starts. When her grandmother gives Kira

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Speaker 1: a memoir that her mother, Kia's mother had been working

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Speaker 1: on before she committed suicide. Kia gets into the mind

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Speaker 1: of her mother that she can no longer speak to,

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Speaker 1: can no longer ask questions of, and finds out about

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Speaker 1: a whole another side of her mother's life. This is

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Speaker 1: where I come in. Was it truly a suicide? Guys?

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace and joining me right now. May Cobb,

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Speaker 1: the author of A Likable Woman, also with us, and

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Speaker 1: I felt after reading the book that I really needed

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Speaker 1: a shrink. Okay, no offense make up. Also with me

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Speaker 1: as a renowned psychologist, joining us out of Manhattan trauma

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Speaker 1: and crime expert Karen Start at Karenstart dot com. That's

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Speaker 1: Karen went to see May, now in your book A

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Speaker 1: Likable Woman. First question I have is why do you

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Speaker 1: have a woman on the front in a swimsuit?

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Speaker 2: That's such a great question. So the publisher is terrific

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Speaker 2: at giving me these great catchy summary covers, and I

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Speaker 2: think they wanted something bold and beche. And there's that

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Speaker 2: scene in there with Sadie when she's in the pool

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Speaker 2: at their family's friend's house, so I think they also

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Speaker 2: wanted to capture like a pretty pivotal scene in the

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Speaker 2: book where something happens. So I think it just hints

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Speaker 2: at like sort of the mystery, the power of Sadie,

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Speaker 2: and sort of the the sexiness too, and the sizzling secrets.

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Speaker 1: Sizling secrets. Okay, that was my first question. You name

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Speaker 1: your book a likable woman may also wrote My Summer Darlings.

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Speaker 1: Explain your title?

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Speaker 2: So I really after my first two books came out,

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Speaker 2: the Hunting Lives and My Summer Darlings, And when when

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Speaker 2: those came out, you know, I got lots of great reviews,

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Speaker 2: and it was a Book of the Month pick and

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Speaker 2: Amazon Editor's Pick and you know, option for film TV.

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Speaker 2: Great stuff, but there was a little bit of a

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Speaker 2: backlash against my southern kind of unhinged female characters.

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Speaker 1: And I just don't like unhinged apply to women, because

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Speaker 1: have you ever noticed when a man raises his voice

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Speaker 1: and makes a point there being strong and assertive, when

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Speaker 1: a woman does it, she's hysterical. She's unhanched.

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Speaker 3: I don't like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't either, whip.

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Speaker 1: Ask on anybody that says that. I'm sorry, I got hysterical.

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Speaker 1: Go ahead, so hinged southern females. I don't like where

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Speaker 1: you're going. But coincident from where do you hail?

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Speaker 4: So?

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Speaker 2: I'm from Longview, Texas, which is in deep East Texas,

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Speaker 2: in the Piney Wood, about two hours east of Dallas,

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Speaker 2: near Louis Beautifa. And yeah, it is gorgeous there, and

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Speaker 2: it's also like Eurie and heavily forested, and so yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm very too nancy oddly protective of my female character,

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Speaker 2: and so I just decided it's kind of a tongue

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Speaker 2: in cheek title a likable woman, and I wanted to

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Speaker 2: play with Stadies character mainly because she's, you know, she's

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Speaker 2: an artist, and she's kind of a a little bit

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Speaker 2: of a rebel in her tupperware toting, you know, claustrophobic

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Speaker 2: suburban neighbor man.

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Speaker 1: What's wrong with tupperware? Although you can get a lot

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Speaker 1: shapeer at dollar Tree. Everybody you're buying cheothpaste, tupperware, toilet

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Speaker 1: paper anywhere, but a dollar Tree. You're crazy? But go

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Speaker 1: ahead now, you're also floats.

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Speaker 2: No, Now, I personally love tupperware, but I'm just trying

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Speaker 2: to paint a picture of just this very sort of

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Speaker 2: like a curtain twitching little neighborhood that she's in. And

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Speaker 2: you know, most of the women are housewives. Nothing against housewives,

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Speaker 2: but they don't really understand her, and neither does her husband.

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Speaker 2: So she's constantly chasing against these norms. Her story set

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Speaker 2: in the early nineties.

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Speaker 1: And then Kira, you're talking about Sadie. Now, yes, I

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Speaker 1: just want to understand. The protagonist in this book is Kira.

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Speaker 1: Now do you call her Kira or Tyra?

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Speaker 2: Kira? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Uh. You know a funny thing about that. I read

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Speaker 1: the entire series of Harry Potter to the children when

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Speaker 1: they would still want to hear me read to them,

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Speaker 1: I mean all of them, and all the Chronicles of

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Speaker 1: Narnia in quick succession. But we called Hermione, Hermione for

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Speaker 1: the entire series. So I just want to hear in

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Speaker 1: my hand you also call her Kira.

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Speaker 2: Correct, Yes, I call her Kira because she's in my mind,

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Speaker 2: she's based on Olivia Newton John's character and the Gonna

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Speaker 2: Do That movie.

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Speaker 1: Oh, okay, I can see that, Yeah, I don't know

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Speaker 1: where you are at where I got Jake Crime Stories

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Before the grandmother decides to give Kira

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Speaker 1: her mom's memoir, she was already getting threats about coming

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Speaker 1: back home.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, she was, yep. And that's the that's kind

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Speaker 2: of the scary, suspenseful part. You know who is sending

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Speaker 2: her these creepy texts and who doesn't want her to

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Speaker 2: come back home and find out the truth.

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Speaker 1: So it describes some of the texts for our listeners.

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Speaker 2: Gosh, it's it's like she lands at the airport in Dallas.

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Speaker 2: So Kira has been living in she fled the little

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Speaker 2: East Texas town Longview after her mom committed suicide, or

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Speaker 2: did she decades before, she's been living in Los Angeles

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Speaker 2: and so she's flying back for her friends or really

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Speaker 2: it's her frenemy's vow renewal party that set over a weekend,

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Speaker 2: and so as soon as.

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Speaker 1: She was from Longview to LA, that's quite a culture shock.

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Speaker 1: We'll right in LA and I think I was the

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Speaker 1: only one that was short and round. Everybody else was

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Speaker 1: tall and skinny with these really big breasts.

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Speaker 2: That's how I felt out there to Nancy, So I

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Speaker 2: came on back home for about a year and a half.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't take it.

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Speaker 1: And doing Dancing with the Stars did not help, because

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Speaker 1: all of those pros were perfect, and they were perfect

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Speaker 1: because they had surgery. They were just perfect. Okay. That said,

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Speaker 1: So she goes from long View to la Okay, then

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Speaker 1: what happens?

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Speaker 2: And then she gets sort of, you know, lured back

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Speaker 2: home against her better wishes and her better judgment. And

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Speaker 2: as soon as she lands in the Dallas airport, she

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Speaker 2: gets a text that says, you're making a very big mistake.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Karen Starr and joining me a psychologists joining us

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Speaker 1: at in Manhattan right there. Most people go, oh, okay, bye,

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Speaker 1: okay bye, I'll just take my bag now. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: but think about it, Karen. Somebody has her cell number,

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Speaker 1: somebody's threatening her, and they know she's touched down at

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Speaker 1: the airport.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I think that the book would never go anywhere

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Speaker 4: if they did that. But I wanted to say, Nancy

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Speaker 4: that what I really like is that whole idea that

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Speaker 4: you brought up before, that this mother is insane. You know,

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Speaker 4: people think that she's off the wall because she just

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Speaker 4: is her own person and that this has happened with

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Speaker 4: women so often. I love the way you capture that

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Speaker 4: that it was really she was just the creative, interesting person.

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Speaker 4: But they make her out to be that there's something

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Speaker 4: wrong because she's different, and being different is so hard

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Speaker 4: for people to absorb and take in. They're threatened by it.

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Speaker 3: Tell me, absolutely, mate, tell me why, well, tell our

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Speaker 3: listeners what is different about Sadie.

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Speaker 2: I think mainly the fact that she has a vision

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Speaker 2: for herself that doesn't just include being a housewife and

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Speaker 2: a mother. She has this big dreamer. She had a

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Speaker 2: big dream to go to New York and to study art,

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Speaker 2: and then her parents died in a car wreck, and

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Speaker 2: that dream sort of withered on the vine, and she

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Speaker 2: got married. But she's still nursing this artistic dream in

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Speaker 2: her backyard and her art shed, and she makes these

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Speaker 2: very intricate fatigues, and she you know, she reads her

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Speaker 2: true stein and she's just sort of an out of

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Speaker 2: the box thinker. And then she also so she just

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Speaker 2: and and her husband is he's abusive, and so she

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Speaker 2: just is really you know, pushing boundaries, pushing buttons. She's

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Speaker 2: right before her death, she was supposed to have her

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Speaker 2: first art show at the local you know, museum or whatever.

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Speaker 2: And so is that the reason she got killed? You know,

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Speaker 2: there's there's it's she's just like a dangerous woman in

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Speaker 2: terms of coloring outside of her you know, life.

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Speaker 1: Call up on what you're saying before all lose the

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Speaker 1: thought with me. In addition to May Cobb, who has

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Speaker 1: written this really incredible book, A Likable Woman, Karen started,

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Speaker 1: there was so much packed into what make Cobb just said. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so she's her parents die and there goes her financial

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Speaker 1: possibilities for her dream of becoming an artist or studying art.

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Speaker 1: She marries, the husband turns out to be abusive. Somehow,

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Speaker 1: this woman, Sadie, manages to nurture that dream. And that

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Speaker 1: is the chord that really struck with me. I mean,

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Speaker 1: regardless of her circumstances, she has found a way to

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Speaker 1: keep that dream alive. And then just before her I

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Speaker 1: guess showing her exhibition, she's found dead. And one thing,

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Speaker 1: this is not a good choice. Okay, very often we

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Speaker 1: don't have a good choice. There's no good alternative in

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Speaker 1: a lot of scenarios. But the daughter comes back, gets

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Speaker 1: this memoir written. She believes or is presented as written

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Speaker 1: by her mother about her whole life. The daughter had

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Speaker 1: no idea about what she was reading. And here are

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Speaker 1: the two bad choices. Your mother was either murdered or

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Speaker 1: your mother committed suicide. I don't like either choice, but

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Speaker 1: I would rather my mom be murdered if I had

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Speaker 1: to pick one of those horrible things, if I had

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Speaker 1: to go through life without my mother, because I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: want to believe that my mother chose to leave me.

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Speaker 1: So you've got this amazing woman who's considered unhinged, nurturing

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Speaker 1: a dream that is either murdered or commit suicide. Now

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Speaker 1: it's not a very good choice, is at Karen start

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Speaker 1: to want to pick I'd rather my mom be murdered

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Speaker 1: than commit suicide.

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Speaker 4: Well, if you think about it, Nancy, people who have

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Speaker 4: a parent that committed suicide, just as you said, they

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Speaker 4: really never get over the fact that not only did

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Speaker 4: they lose their parent, but that their parents chose to

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Speaker 4: leave them, And it becomes personal, like what did I do?

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Speaker 4: Why wasn't I able to stop my mom from doing that?

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Speaker 4: So it's on your shoulder. It's a burden for the

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Speaker 4: rest of your life. So even though it's terrible that

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Speaker 4: somebody would be murdered. It's a lot better to think

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Speaker 4: that they had no control over the circumstances than to

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Speaker 4: believe that they chose to leave you.

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine carrying that horrible burden around. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know if my father could have he would have

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Speaker 1: stayed with me till the very end, but he passed away.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how I would cope with a thought

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Speaker 1: that he chose to leave his children and wife. That's

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Speaker 1: there's a lot to figure out in this book, may

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Speaker 1: a lot. And then you've got Kia's sister. Didn't she

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Speaker 1: say something along the lines of the world is better

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Speaker 1: off without her?

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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, And that's so just piggybacking on what y'all

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Speaker 2: are saying. That was Kia's whole thrust of sort of

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Speaker 2: never believing the suicide line. She was like, there's no way,

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Speaker 2: because she was so close to her mom, and she

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Speaker 2: was out there making art with her and learning from her,

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Speaker 2: and they were besties and connected in a way that

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Speaker 2: her mom wasn't to her sister. So she was like,

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Speaker 2: no way, this woman, at the prime, you know, of

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Speaker 2: her life, when she's about to have the show, would

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Speaker 2: do this to me? Would do this to herself. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: but the sister is a whole different story. She was

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Speaker 2: closer to the dad and was, I would say, ashamed

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Speaker 2: of the mom. So yeah, it's probably just her being

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Speaker 2: a little you know, more free spirited. And maybe she

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Speaker 2: went dresses. Yeah, different dresses, different than the other women

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Speaker 2: the belt school. She she likes to wear like sort

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Speaker 2: of long flowing, you know, dresses. Sometimes she doesn't wear

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Speaker 2: a bra.

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Speaker 1: Oh, Dear Lord in Heaven.

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Speaker 2: Very bohemian.

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Speaker 4: I just want to add to that that it's really

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Speaker 4: so true that when you're young, what you want is

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Speaker 4: the same as everyone. You want. You don't want to

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Speaker 4: stand out as being different. You want to belong. And

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Speaker 4: I think about myself and when I grew up and

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Speaker 4: I lived in the projects, and my mother was a violinist,

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Speaker 4: and she would go for violin lessons and I would

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Speaker 4: be really embarrassed because I wanted her to be like

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Speaker 4: all the other mothers. I didn't want her to be

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Speaker 4: carrying a violin case and doing something that was different.

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Speaker 1: Star, you've kept a secret from me. I didn't know

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Speaker 1: you thought that about your mother.

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Speaker 4: I did, and I remember it so clearly.

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Speaker 1: I know that you don't judge anybody, but I'm totally

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Speaker 1: judging you. That was wrong, young lady. I'm never get

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Speaker 1: to say that to my daughter Lucy because if I

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Speaker 1: don't like mess her it up. But now I can

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Speaker 1: say to you, that was so wrong, Karen Star.

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Speaker 4: But that's that's what's so striking about it is you

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Speaker 4: realize when you get to be older, how wrong that was.

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Speaker 4: And here's somebody who understands that her mother is different

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Speaker 4: but accept it, where her sister can't deal with it.

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Speaker 1: That's quite the dichotomy. May You've got one sister embarrassed

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Speaker 1: of the mother, and you've got Kia is trying to

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Speaker 1: find out what really happened to mother. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I really wanted to play with that sort of

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Speaker 2: you know, dysfunctional family dynamic, or that there's battle lines

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Speaker 2: drawn where the sister's more in line with the dad

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Speaker 2: and Kira's more in line with the mom, because I

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Speaker 2: think that happens in family sometimes.

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Speaker 1: And then then we find out the mom Sadie I

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Speaker 1: love that name, by the way, that you picked had

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Speaker 1: a sex affair. Yes, okay, the walls really are crashing

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Speaker 1: down now.

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Speaker 2: Yes, she and that's part of her journey in becoming

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Speaker 2: like her own woman, is that she meets this man

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Speaker 2: who's just moved to town with his wife who's very.

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Speaker 1: Over there is she.

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Speaker 2: Sadie? So Sadie is having this affair with this man, Mike,

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Speaker 2: who's just moved to town, and he's more like her.

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Speaker 2: He's kindred spirit, he was like a professor in Dallas,

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Speaker 2: and his wife is overbearing and he's also unhappy in

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Speaker 2: his marriage. So their relationship begins, and it's just beginning.

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Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace Karen Stark psychologists joining us

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Speaker 1: in addition to the awesome Maycup, author of A Likable

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Speaker 1: Woman on Amazon. Now, Karen, it's so easy to judge

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Speaker 1: people that have an affair. Yes, it's wrong. I know

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Speaker 1: it's wrong. And I don't even want to consider the

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Speaker 1: fact that my husband, David could ever do that, because

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Speaker 1: I think he's perfect. But a what do you do

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Speaker 1: when you find out and there's no way to talk

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Speaker 1: to your mother about it because she's passed away about

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Speaker 1: your mother having an affair? And the other thing is

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Speaker 1: I think sometimes and I don't know, because I don't

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Speaker 1: plan on having an affair because that could cut into

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Speaker 1: my time with the twins. If my husband want to

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Speaker 1: get fifty percent custody. Plus I love David. Sometimes I

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Speaker 1: think people have affairs. You're the shrink, not me, Karen,

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Speaker 1: not because they are in love with the other person

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Speaker 1: or because they want to hurt their spouse. It's something

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Speaker 1: in them. They're unhappy and they're seeking happiness or fulfillment

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Speaker 1: in any way they can find it, regardless of the

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Speaker 1: damage it could do.

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Speaker 4: Without a doubt, Nancy, that's a great assessment. And that's exactly.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know what I just said. I would

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Speaker 1: be hard for us to repeat it.

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Speaker 4: But no, but you're right. What you just said is

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Speaker 4: that they're unhappy, and sometimes that's the only way that

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Speaker 4: they could feel that they had any kind of connection

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Speaker 4: in this case, especially because this woman is so different

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Speaker 4: than everyone.

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Speaker 1: Else, and domestic abuse exactly, and this is not the answer,

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Speaker 1: and a fair or sex fair it is not the answer.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I think that it's like a symptom of

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Speaker 1: something else wrong. But I'm just thinking about the mother.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I know your book is about Kira and

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Speaker 1: her investigation and her fear, her very legitimate fear, and

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Speaker 1: the threats on her about a mystery that's long been

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Speaker 1: put to bed many many years ago when the mom died.

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Speaker 1: But there's just so much going on with her, and

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Speaker 1: I feel that we can identify with so much of

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Speaker 1: what Kira is going through.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I really wanted to, like have her spend a

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Speaker 2: lot of time reading those pages and trying to piece

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Speaker 2: it together. And she has to do it, you know,

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Speaker 2: with this party going on, with these people who don't

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Speaker 2: really like her either or approve of her almost in

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Speaker 2: the way that her mother wasn't approved of. Like she's

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Speaker 2: the only single one there, you know, everyone else is

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Speaker 2: already married off, and she too, is an artist, even

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Speaker 2: though her life has been stunted by really survivor's guilt.

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Speaker 2: So it's instrumental that she finds out, you know, what

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Speaker 2: happened to her mom so she can move on to

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Speaker 2: and live her full life. But yeah, so she is

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Speaker 2: you know, not only reacting to, you know, these secrets

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Speaker 2: that her mom held, but then also actively trying to

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Speaker 2: find out who killed her mom And why am I getting.

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Speaker 1: If anybody killed her mom?

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Speaker 2: Yes, if anyone killed her mom, that's correct.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And she go ahead, she has to cope with

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Speaker 4: finding out that her mother had an affair, which no

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Speaker 4: matter how much you think that you know your parents

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Speaker 4: something like that is devastating. You have to make sense

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Speaker 4: of this.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, you're gonna love this. A friend of David's, this

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Speaker 1: is so funny. The mom and the dad and the

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Speaker 1: son and the daughter are at the breakfast table and

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Speaker 1: the son's sitting there eating cereal, and somehow it's somebody

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Speaker 1: mentions and the daughter is like, I don't know, thirteen fourteen,

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Speaker 1: and it comes out that the mom had been married

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Speaker 1: before in her youth, like in college or something, and

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Speaker 1: got a fairly divorce. The daughter slams down her breast

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Speaker 1: and goes, mom, you didn't tell me, and storms out

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Speaker 1: of the room, goes to her room, slams the door,

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Speaker 1: everything like shakes, and the son just keeps seeing cereal.

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Speaker 1: We couldn't care less. And the mom says, did you

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Speaker 1: hear what I just said? I was married before I

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Speaker 1: met your father, and goes okay and just keeps seeing me.

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Speaker 1: You know some people, that's a true story, very differently

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Speaker 1: to finding things out about your mother.

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Speaker 2: It's true. That's such a that's such a boy reaction.

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Speaker 1: Eh eh, I made it here, so I don't care.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I know your your book, which I

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Speaker 1: love a Likable Woman by Maycup is about Kira. Going

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Speaker 1: home could be more iconic than going home and suspecting

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Speaker 1: that her mother did not commit suicide. I knows about Kira,

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Speaker 1: but I am really fascinated with Sadie in all of

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Speaker 1: her flaws, like having the affair not just an affair,

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Speaker 1: but an affair with a married man and she's married.

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Speaker 1: I mean, like all the men in the world is

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Speaker 1: you have to pick one that's married. That her attempt

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Speaker 1: to keep her artistic dream alive and in any way

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Speaker 1: she can in her world, in the confines her self

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Speaker 1: perceived confines of her world, trying to become an artist.

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Speaker 1: It just there's something very heartbreaking about Sadie.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there is. And I really appreciate that that resonated

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Speaker 2: with you. I'm so happy to hear it. Sadie is

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Speaker 2: a lot. She's inspired a lot by my own mother,

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Speaker 2: who is an artist, but definitely had to, you know,

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Speaker 2: do the mom thing and live in the small town

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Speaker 2: like she was. She came down.

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Speaker 1: Moms don't like it when you say the mom thing.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean I'm a mom. Yeah, I'm a mom.

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Speaker 1: And do you have two guinea pigs? See, you don't

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Speaker 1: understand suffering. Okay, may you don't understand suffering until your

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Speaker 1: ninety two year old mother lives with you and you

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Speaker 1: have a cat, a dog, two guinea pigs, twins, and

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Speaker 1: a husband.

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Speaker 2: Okay, now the guinea pigs would put me over that

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Speaker 2: they really do.

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Speaker 1: So you were saying a mom who is very gifted artistically,

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Speaker 1: as you say in your vulgar way, doing the moms in.

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Speaker 2: My East Texas way.

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Speaker 1: But I like the fact that she has flaws, she

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Speaker 1: has a deep flaws, but yet she's just such a beautiful,

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Speaker 1: beautiful person.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you. That's that goes back to the title,

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Speaker 2: you know, a likable woman. I feel like women should

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Speaker 2: be allowed to be flawed, like you know men are

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Speaker 2: in fiction all the time, and not be judged for

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Speaker 2: it so harshly, or the author judged for it so harshly.

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Speaker 2: So I really did want to play with that notion

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Speaker 2: and have Sadie b full bodied be her own person. Yes,

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Speaker 2: she's tragic, but like you said, she's driven to, you know,

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Speaker 2: make her art against all the different, you know, constraints

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Speaker 2: in her life.

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Speaker 1: I've got so much to say because I know how

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Speaker 1: the book ends, but I'm going to leave that to

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Speaker 1: all of you, guys. A Likable a Woman by May

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Speaker 1: cop It's intrigue, it's mystery, it's riveting. The characters are

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Speaker 1: very complex, sometimes likable and sometimes not very likable at all.

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Speaker 1: But especially about Sadie, there's something really beautiful about her spirit.

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Speaker 1: And then there's Kira, who will not stop, even risking

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Speaker 1: her own life to find out the truth. It's amazing.

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Speaker 1: A Likable Woman on Amazon, well and everywhere now, May Cobb,

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Speaker 1: I wish you the very best with your book and

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Speaker 1: all your endeavors.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Nancy, thank you so much for

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Speaker 2: having me back on It's just such an honor.

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Speaker 1: Oh gosh, thank you and Karen Stark. I told you

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Speaker 1: we needed a shrink, right. I may need further therapy

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Speaker 1: after a full read of this book. Okay, guys, thank you,

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Speaker 1: and please pick up A Likable Woman. It's awesome. Bye, guys,