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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to the

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast.

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Speaker 2: Catch Just Live weekdays at noon Eastern on Appocarplay.

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Speaker 3: And then roud Otto with the Bloomberg Business app.

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Speaker 2: Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch

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Speaker 4: We are bringing you the latest on the indictment of

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Speaker 4: sitting New York City Mayor Eric Adams, who has been

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Speaker 4: indicted on a number of federal charges, including wirefraud, bribery,

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Speaker 4: and solicitation of a contribution by a foreign national. All

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Speaker 4: of this is in this fifty seven page federal indictment

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Speaker 4: that was unsealed today after first being reported last evening.

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Speaker 4: And as we've mentioned, Eric Adams is not intending at

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Speaker 4: this point to resign. He says he will continue with

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Speaker 4: his day to day work serving as mayor of New

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Speaker 4: York City and is looking forward to defending himself against

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Speaker 4: these charges. But we want to dig into what exactly

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Speaker 4: these charges entail now and turn to June Grosso, who

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Speaker 4: is the host of Bloomberg Law. This indictment is certainly

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Speaker 4: something to behold.

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Speaker 5: June.

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Speaker 4: There's a number of allegations listed in here related to

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Speaker 4: things like air travel, for example, on Turkish airlines. According

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Speaker 4: to this indictment, and Adam staff are actually texting with

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Speaker 4: an airline official about the price of a ticket, the

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Speaker 4: airline manager asking how much should be charged. After floating

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Speaker 4: fifty dollars, the staffer says, his every step is being

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Speaker 4: watched right now one thousand dollars or so, let it

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Speaker 4: be somewhat real. We don't want them to say he

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Speaker 4: is flying for free with that kind of detailed June

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Speaker 4: just how damning is this indictment?

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Speaker 6: Well, it is very damning, and I want to call

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Speaker 6: it a speaking indictment. So anyone could read this and

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Speaker 6: see what the prosecution, what the US Attorney's office alleges happened.

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Speaker 6: It's a very simple indictment to read. You don't need

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Speaker 6: to be a lawyer to look into it. So, and

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Speaker 6: it outlined all the different trips he took or upgrades

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Speaker 6: got from Turkish airlines and Turkish businessmen. I think what's

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Speaker 6: interesting about the quote that you just read. There are

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Speaker 6: a lot of quotes of texts between Adams staffers and

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Speaker 6: Turkish officials, unnamed Turkish officials or businessmen, but there are

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Speaker 6: very few of Adams himself. There are some references to

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Speaker 6: Adams saying something like I'll handle that. But that stood

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Speaker 6: out to me because if the US Attorney's Office had

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Speaker 6: those texts of Adams himself, I think they'd be in

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Speaker 6: this indictment front and center. So that may be something

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Speaker 6: that the Adams defense can work with. But I mean

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Speaker 6: there's a lot of sort of what you'd consider undeniable evidence.

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Speaker 6: And there's also not only that he took this, but

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Speaker 6: that he created a straw map sort of to try

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Speaker 6: a fake map to try to think that try to

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Speaker 6: make people think that he had paid for this. So

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Speaker 6: he created a paper trail. That's those are the two

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Speaker 6: words I want. He created a paper trail or tried

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Speaker 6: to create a paper trail. So that is really something

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Speaker 6: that a jury could, you know, latch onto and say, well,

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Speaker 6: obviously he knew what was going on if he's trying

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Speaker 6: to create a paper trail to cover it up. So

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Speaker 6: there's a lot of evidence here. And what also stands

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Speaker 6: out is that he abused the New York City, the

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Speaker 6: New York Matching Funds program where and I think they

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Speaker 6: said to the extent of ten million dollars where where

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Speaker 6: the York will match the donations you get. I believe

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Speaker 6: it's three dollars to one dollar, so that equal very quick.

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Speaker 6: And what comes out is this was you know, the

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Speaker 6: travel is one thing, and that goes back a decade,

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Speaker 6: but this was about getting money for him to run

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Speaker 6: for office in New York. I mean, you don't see

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Speaker 6: a lot of oh he got a goal watch from someone,

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Speaker 6: or you know, personal except for the travel sort of

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Speaker 6: personal benefits. It's about him trying to become mayor of

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Speaker 6: New York and the cost of that and and what

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Speaker 6: he needed to do. So it's it's very and I

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Speaker 6: just want to say he has hired a celebrity entertainment,

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Speaker 6: very very good attorney, Alex Spiro. He represented different points,

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Speaker 6: Jay z Elon Musk. He's one of Elon Musk's favorite attorney,

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Speaker 6: Alec Baldwin. So he's got already the you know, the

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Speaker 6: top of criminal defense lawyers who's already put out statements

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Speaker 6: about how this was a setup and it was a

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Speaker 6: dog and pony show at Gracie Manson this morning. I mean,

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Speaker 6: why did they have to raid Gracie Manchin. They already

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Speaker 6: had his phones and texts and the and the mayor

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Speaker 6: said he would turn over whatever they wanted.

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Speaker 4: So a lot there, Well, it is a lot. And

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Speaker 4: I wonder what kind of collective penalty if he's actually

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Speaker 4: found guilty of these crimes. He'd be looking at here too.

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Speaker 6: You know, I don't know what the what the crimes,

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Speaker 6: what the penalties would be. I mean, you've got to

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Speaker 6: believe it's it's decades. But but of course this is

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Speaker 6: something that you know, we always talk about. They're facing

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Speaker 6: one hundred years in prison, and no one gets that.

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Speaker 6: It's the judge will look at he has no prior convictions. Obviously,

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Speaker 6: he's the mayor of a large city, and the judge

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Speaker 6: would look at that and compare it. I mean, I

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Speaker 6: can't believe, but we're really jumping the gun here because

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Speaker 6: we have to go through I mean, he hasn't even

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Speaker 6: been arranged yet. And that was another thing that his

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Speaker 6: campaign brought out that you know, how they learned about this,

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Speaker 6: and they complained about leaks from the US Attorney's Office

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Speaker 6: of Grand Jury Information. The mayor mentioned that as well

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Speaker 6: as his attorney mentioned that in a statement. So it's

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Speaker 6: a long way from conviction, but this is the same

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Speaker 6: office that just won conviction against former Senator Bob Menendez,

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Speaker 6: So public corruption is something that they do rather well here.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, bribery charges of course in play in that case

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Speaker 4: as well. June Grosso, host a Bloomberg Lab will be

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Speaker 4: staying on top of this story for us all day

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Speaker 4: here on Bloomberg Radio. We appreciate it very much and

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Speaker 4: we want to add another voice to this conversation now.

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Speaker 4: I'm please to say joining me is Nick Ackerman, former

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Speaker 4: Watergate prosecutor, founder of the law Office of Nick Ackerman,

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Speaker 4: the former assistant US Attorney.

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Speaker 3: Nick.

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Speaker 4: Always great to see you. I almost struggle with where

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Speaker 4: to begin in this as we've been discussing extended indictment.

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Speaker 4: I guess the question is, given the stature of this defendant,

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Speaker 4: in particular, a sitting mayor of the largest city in

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Speaker 4: the country, how rock solid would the prosecution have needed

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Speaker 4: to feel this case was in order to bring these

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Speaker 4: charges forward.

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Speaker 7: Well, considering who the defendant is, they would have to

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Speaker 7: feel extremely comfortable on the evidence. And it's pretty obvious

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Speaker 7: from reading this indictment that they do. They lay it

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Speaker 7: out in such detail. This is not a one shot deal.

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Speaker 7: This goes over a period of time, starting when he

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Speaker 7: was the involved in politics. You know a number of

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Speaker 7: years ago, in twenty fourteen when he was the Brooklyn

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Speaker 7: Bureau President. I mean, this goes way back. You've got

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Speaker 7: very detailed evidence. You can pick out who the witnesses are,

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Speaker 7: you can pick out where the emails are, you can

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Speaker 7: pick out exactly who's testifying. This is absolutely looks like

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Speaker 7: on the surface and overwhelming case for conviction.

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Speaker 4: Well, I wonder how long it would take to actually

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Speaker 4: get to that point, though, Nick and I would just

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Speaker 4: point out we have a headline crossing the terminal now

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Speaker 4: that Adams is entitled to the presumption of innocence. This

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Speaker 4: is according to the Democratic leader in the House, Hackeen Jeffries,

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Speaker 4: of course, a member from the state of New York.

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Speaker 4: He says, the indictment of a sitting mayor is a

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Speaker 4: serious and sober moment for New York City. Like every

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Speaker 4: other New Yorker and American, Eric Adams is entitled to

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Speaker 4: that presumption of innocence. That principle is central to the

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Speaker 4: administration of justice in the United States of America. He

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Speaker 4: goes on to say, in the meantime, I pray for

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Speaker 4: the well being of our great city. So with that

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Speaker 4: kind of political consideration, in minds here, Nick, it is

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Speaker 4: worth pointing out that we're talking about a sitting mayor

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Speaker 4: of New York who has been indicted. We are also

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Speaker 4: talking about a Republican presidential candidate, the nominee, who has

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Speaker 4: not just been indicted, but in fact convicted in the

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Speaker 4: state of New York and indicted on a number of

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Speaker 4: other crimes. What does this say about the political moment

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Speaker 4: we are in when we're dealing with leaders at the

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Speaker 4: highest levels who are so entangled in legal battles.

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Speaker 7: Well, I'm not sure there's something general you can take

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Speaker 7: out of this. I mean, this has been going on

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Speaker 7: for years. I used to be an assistant UTI's attorney

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Speaker 7: in a southern district of New York. Public officials were indicted.

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Speaker 7: Back then, I was involved in the Watergate prosecution. We

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Speaker 7: would have indicted the president but for his pardon. All

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Speaker 7: of his aides were in guided and spent time in jail.

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Speaker 7: This has been going on for a long time, despite

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Speaker 7: the fact that the Department of Justice and local das

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Speaker 7: have been vigilant in going after public corruption. I think

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Speaker 7: even though Maar Adams does have the presumption of innocence here,

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Speaker 7: the political problem posed by this indictment is overwhelming in

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Speaker 7: the sense that it doesn't just allege general violations of law.

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Speaker 7: It gives very specific dates, times, places, benefits that he

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Speaker 7: received in terms of travel, certain actions he did in

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Speaker 7: return for those benefits that related to the New York

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Speaker 7: City Fire Department, the New York City Buildings Department. It

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Speaker 7: is so detailed it is hard to imagine under these

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Speaker 7: circumstances that he can continue as mayor.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 4: He though says that he will and that his day

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Speaker 4: to day won't change. I guess you might take issue

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Speaker 4: with that notion when you're fighting a legal battle like

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Speaker 4: this one a bit. But it goes back to the

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Speaker 4: original question I wanted to ask you about timing. How

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Speaker 4: long would you expect this process to play out? Considering,

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Speaker 4: as June pointed out to us, he has not yet

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Speaker 4: been arraigned, no arrest has taken place, or anything like that.

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Speaker 4: How long will it take for this to reach conclusion?

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Speaker 4: Would you estimate?

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Speaker 7: Oh, I think it's going to take at least six months,

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Speaker 7: possibly a year. First of all, he's got to be arranged.

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Speaker 7: He's going to plead not guilty. I presume based on

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Speaker 7: his statements. There's then going to be pre trial motions.

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Speaker 7: There's going to be discovery that takes a long time.

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Speaker 7: My senses from reading this indictment, there's lots of witnesses,

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Speaker 7: there's lots of documents. He has the right to have

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Speaker 7: all of that material beforehand. Then after he gets all

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Speaker 7: those documents, will be a time period for motions to

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Speaker 7: be made, and then ultimately the judge will have to

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Speaker 7: decide on those motions. That takes time. This is not

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Speaker 7: an uncomplicated case. In some ways, it's pretty straightforward and simple,

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Speaker 7: but it's got a lot of witnesses, a lot of documents.

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Speaker 7: I'm not sure there's too many legal issues here just

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Speaker 7: looking at this indictment. This is going to be a

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Speaker 7: hard one to get dismissed based on the face of

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Speaker 7: the indictment, but they're going to try, and all of

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Speaker 7: this does take time, and it just seems to me,

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Speaker 7: based on the granularity of the allegations here and what's

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Speaker 7: been identified, I think it's going to be very hard

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Speaker 7: for him to continue acting as mayor despite what he's saying. Now,

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Speaker 7: he can say whatever he wants, but I think that

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Speaker 7: once the reporters and the press start digging into the

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Speaker 7: granularity of what is in here and identifying who the

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Speaker 7: people are, the incidents that relate, for example, to the

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Speaker 7: Turkish government building that he gave preference to with the

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Speaker 7: fire department. All of these things can be verified by

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Speaker 7: the press, and I think the more of this that

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Speaker 7: comes out, the harder it is for him to be

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Speaker 7: governing as mayor of New York.

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Speaker 4: Well, of course, he doesn't govern alone either. There is

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Speaker 4: a whole city government to consider here as well. And

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Speaker 4: we have seen nick the resignations of some city officials,

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Speaker 4: others who have had who are close to Adams, who

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Speaker 4: have had their homes rated, for example, as a prosecutor,

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Speaker 4: how important should we be considering those other individuals into

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Speaker 4: the ultimate case the prosecution will make here This idea

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Speaker 4: that people could maybe roll on him, Is that what

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Speaker 4: you would be trying to achieve if you were the

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Speaker 4: Southern district of New York right now?

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Speaker 7: Oh, no question, that's what they're trying to do. And

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Speaker 7: it doesn't sound like this just relates to campaign contributions.

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Speaker 7: It sounds like this is much broader than campaign contributions,

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Speaker 7: that some of these other people who have resigned have

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Speaker 7: done other things. The question is what is the evidence

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Speaker 7: on Mayor Adams. What will they say about Mayor Adams

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Speaker 7: if they make a deal with the government. There's just

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Speaker 7: so many people involved, so many people have resigned over

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Speaker 7: the last couple of months. We don't really know the

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Speaker 7: complete scope and breath of what's out there, but I

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Speaker 7: think we're going to learn that as it goes along.

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Speaker 7: But yes, I think he's in a whole world have

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Speaker 7: hurt here because there's just too much There's too many

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Speaker 7: people that can come forward and testify against him.

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Speaker 4: And if this goes to jury trial, which I'm assuming

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Speaker 4: is what the course of action will take us to here,

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Speaker 4: how complicated is it to try to see a jury

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Speaker 4: in the city of New York when it's the mayor

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Speaker 4: of New York in question. These are his constituents, some

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Speaker 4: of them may be people who voted for him. How

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Speaker 4: complicated is this likely to get?

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Speaker 3: Nick?

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Speaker 7: Well, I don't think it's going to be complicated. Look,

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Speaker 7: they were able to set get a jury for Donald Trump,

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Speaker 7: who is the former president United States, and it didn't

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Speaker 7: take more couple of days to do that. It's all

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Speaker 7: done in the questioning of the jurors, which is known

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Speaker 7: as the vaidere to determine whether anybody has any preconceived

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Speaker 7: notions or prejudices. This can all be done pretty quickly.

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Speaker 7: You'd be surprised how many people have not focused on this,

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Speaker 7: don't know anything about it, and are going to be

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Speaker 7: clueless as to the facts of the case. And we'll

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Speaker 7: be able to serve as good jurors on this case.

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Speaker 7: So I don't see that being any kind of major

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Speaker 7: obstacle in terms of delay, mainly because Donald Trump they

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Speaker 7: were able to get a jury on him in less

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Speaker 7: than two days. I mean, this shouldn't be any different.

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Speaker 4: Well, fair enough, and of course Donald Trump was convicted

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Speaker 4: on thirty four felony charges in New York earlier this year.

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Speaker 4: This is still an indictment. He does carry the presumption

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Speaker 4: of innotance. Finally, it before we let you go here,

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Speaker 4: would you expect that because we've had this conversation in

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Speaker 4: the Donald Trump case as well. If Eric Adams were

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Speaker 4: to be found guilty of any or all of these crimes,

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Speaker 4: could he serve time in prison?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 7: Absolutely, I mean, it all depends on the federal sentencing guidelines.

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Speaker 7: You'd have to look at the guidelines for each of

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Speaker 7: these violations. You've got wire fraud, a fraud on the

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Speaker 7: City of New York for being able to get matching

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Speaker 7: funds from the city. You've got bribery and other violations here.

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Speaker 7: That it all depends on the federal sentencing guidelines and

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Speaker 7: they what amounts of money involved, the seriousness of the crime,

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Speaker 7: et cetera. So there's no way to know what that

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Speaker 7: will be at the point, but it's serious, all right.

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Speaker 4: Nick Ackerman, former Watergate prosecutor, thank you so much as

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Speaker 4: always for joining us on this historic day as a

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Speaker 4: sitting mayor of New York City is indicted on federal charges.

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Speaker 4: Will have much more still ahead here on Balance of Power.

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Speaker 1: On Bloomberg, you're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power

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Speaker 1: podcast Ken Just Live weekdays at noon Eastern CarPlay.

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Speaker 3: And then ron Otto with the Bloomberg Business app.

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Speaker 2: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our

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Speaker 2: flagship New York station, Just Say Alexa playing Bloomberg eleven thirty.

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Speaker 4: The indictment of New York City Mayor Eric Adams on

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Speaker 4: bribery and fraud charges. He, of course, in the face

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Speaker 4: of those is saying he looks forward to defending himself

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Speaker 4: and will continue to serve as mayor. Of New York City,

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Speaker 4: despite some calls from both Republicans and Democrats who represent

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Speaker 4: New York and Congress for him to resign. Not an

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Speaker 4: outright call for that though from the House Democratic Leader

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Speaker 4: Hakeim Jeffries, who of course represents a district in New

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Speaker 4: York City. He says the indictment of a sitting mayor

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Speaker 4: is a serious and sober moment for New York City.

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Speaker 4: Like every American, other New Yorker and American. Rather, Eric

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Speaker 4: Adams is entitled to the presumption of innocence. So we

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Speaker 4: wanted to get into this now with our political panel

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Speaker 4: joining me today as Rick Davis, Bloomberg Politics contributor and

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Speaker 4: Republican strategists, together with our Democratic strategists today Caitlin Lagaki

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Speaker 4: Kitlyn and as the Democrat I have to come to

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Speaker 4: you first. What is the responsible way for Democrats to

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Speaker 4: be responding to this. Frankly one Democrat in particular, Eric Adam.

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Speaker 4: Should he resign?

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Speaker 8: Yes? I mean, if you read even the first page

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Speaker 8: of his indictment, it's pretty alarming stuff. I expect that

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Speaker 8: Leader Jeffries is working the phones pretty aggressively to help

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Speaker 8: move Adams to the right decision. You know, I think

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Speaker 8: we would all get a lot of short term satisfaction

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Speaker 8: from Jeffries coming out immediately and calling on him to

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Speaker 8: step aside. But you know, what I have seen previously

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Speaker 8: is that it's just typically a lot more effective to

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Speaker 8: work behind the scenes and get these people to step

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Speaker 8: aside then to call on them publicly. So, you know,

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Speaker 8: I fully expect that's what he's doing. And the indictment

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Speaker 8: is so bad that I can't imagine that it lasts

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Speaker 8: longer than a few days.

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Speaker 4: Well, Caitlin, just to follow up if he does not

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Speaker 4: do it, though, if he cannot be convinced to resign,

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Speaker 4: what resign? What do you expect the consequences will be

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Speaker 4: for other Democrats who represent New York and its surrounding areas,

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Speaker 4: some of who might find themselves in tough races this cycle.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, you know, I hope that Eric Adams, you know,

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Speaker 8: for once, does the right thing and he steps aside.

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Speaker 8: There are a handful of congressional seats in suburban New

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Speaker 8: York City that are clear toss ups, and if Eric

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Speaker 8: Adams's goal is to help Republicans hold those seats, then yes,

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Speaker 8: he should stay in office. But I think he's going

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Speaker 8: to be in self preservation mode. I wouldn't be surprised

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Speaker 8: if he starts aligning himself with some characters who are unsavory,

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Speaker 8: but who also argue that they are persecuted by the government.

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Speaker 8: But you know, I don't think it has a huge

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Speaker 8: impact on individual races. But it's just a distraction that

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Speaker 8: cuts away from the narrative that these candidates want to

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Speaker 8: be driving in their own races, and it undermines confidence

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Speaker 8: in government, which I think is bad for everyone.

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Speaker 4: Well, and Rick, on that point, I would love to

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Speaker 4: bring you in on that. We're talking about the sitting

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Speaker 4: mayor of New York City who is now under federal

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Speaker 4: criminal indictment. At the same time, we have a Republican

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Speaker 4: presidential nominee who is under multiple indictments, in fact, has

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Speaker 4: been convicted on charges in the state of New York already.

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Speaker 4: What kind of moment in politics are we in right now?

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Speaker 9: A very litigious moment in politics. It seems to me

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Speaker 9: most of the election yeer has been defined by indictments.

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Speaker 9: Don't forget Senator from New Jersey also, Yes, I mean,

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Speaker 9: you know, it just goes on and on, and I

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Speaker 9: would say this is an era that we are suffering through.

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Speaker 9: Maybe there's a level of.

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Speaker 3: Corruption and.

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Speaker 9: Misbehavior that the era is going to be known for,

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Speaker 9: but it's not positive. And I think Caitlin's right. I

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Speaker 9: think that, you know, I come from an era, maybe

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Speaker 9: bygone era, where a politician like Eric and Adams would

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Speaker 9: look at this and say, you know what, I can't

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Speaker 9: do my job effectively for the people of New York.

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Speaker 9: I want to live to fight another day. Clear my name.

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Speaker 9: So I'm going to step down, you know, and clear

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Speaker 9: my name and then come back hard. And there are

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Speaker 9: examples where that has worked. And of course he's not

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Speaker 9: going to do that, not without a massive campaign with

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Speaker 9: people like you know, the House Minority Leader Hakim Jefferies,

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Speaker 9: who is a colleague from New York, who didn't take

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Speaker 9: the opportunity to make that suggestion today. It'll be interesting

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Speaker 9: to see how long it takes to get him to

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Speaker 9: that point, because it is a massive political distraction in

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Speaker 9: what is otherwise a intensely watched campaign around the country.

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Speaker 9: And a day we're talking about Eric Adams is a

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Speaker 9: day we're not talking about congressional candidates who have got

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Speaker 9: tight races in New York or the presidential race. So

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Speaker 9: it is legitimately a distraction of the people in New York.

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Speaker 4: Well, and I wonder about how it plays more broadly

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Speaker 4: as well. Caitlin, just quickly here, Kamala Harris is running

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Speaker 4: in part as a prosecutor. What should she be saying

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Speaker 4: in response to this? Does she have a role to play?

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Speaker 8: You know, I think she has a role to play

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Speaker 8: in terms of fighting for the rule of law. I

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Speaker 8: think that's where you'll see her draw a clear contrast,

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Speaker 8: is that she believes that we live in a country

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Speaker 8: where everyone is equally accountable to the law, whereas Donald

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Speaker 8: Trump does not. I don't think she's going to want

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Speaker 8: to weigh in on the individual allegations just because she

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Speaker 8: understands as a prosecutor that you don't want to get

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Speaker 8: in the middle of an ongoing legal process. But I

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Speaker 8: do think that, you know, she is a prosecutor, She

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Speaker 8: has a strong record on this, and I it gives

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Speaker 8: her another opportunity to remind voters of whom possibly still

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Speaker 8: don't know that Donald Trump has been indicted, that there

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Speaker 8: is a clear distinction there, and that she's going to

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Speaker 8: continue to make that.

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Speaker 4: Argument, all right, Caitlin Lagaki and Rick Davis, our Political

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Speaker 4: panel today. Thank you so much. We'll have much more

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Speaker 4: with them in our next hour of Balance of Power.

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Speaker 4: But we want to turn out a representative in Congress

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Speaker 4: from the state of New York. Congresswoman Nicole Maliatakis is

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Speaker 4: with me now. She represents New York's eleventh Congressional district.

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Speaker 4: Her constituency covers Staten Island and southern Brooklyn, so areas

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Speaker 4: of New York that are very much affected by this news. Congresswoman,

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Speaker 4: thank you so much for joining us here on balance

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Speaker 4: of power. You already have called today for either the

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Speaker 4: resignation of Eric Adams or his removal by Governor Hochel.

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Speaker 4: Why exactly does he need to resign with not being

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Speaker 4: found yet guilty of these crimes when Donald Trump is

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Speaker 4: still running for president, haven't been felt guilty of crimes

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Speaker 4: and indicted on many others.

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Speaker 10: Well, first of all, we have a city right now

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Speaker 10: that is in peril, and I think that this is

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Speaker 10: a major distraction for the mayor. I think the mayor

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Speaker 10: needs to focus on these serious charges. You have to

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Speaker 10: remember that there are multiple people within his cabinet that

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Speaker 10: have resigned, So I think this is really the tip

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Speaker 10: of the iceberg. But it has made this city really failing.

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Speaker 10: It's failing and people are suffering as a result. We

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Speaker 10: have so many problems right now, skyrocketing crime, We have

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Speaker 10: this mass illegal migration.

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Speaker 11: We have our hotels have been taken over with these lucrative.

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Speaker 10: Contracts to re operated as migrant shelters, and the people

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Speaker 10: in them are committing crimes and they are wreaking havoc

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Speaker 10: in our city, rapes, shooting at police officers. We have

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Speaker 10: an education system that is failing and a chancellor that

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Speaker 10: just said he was going to resign at the end

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Speaker 10: of the year. We have a police commissioner recently resigned

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Speaker 10: when we have serious public safety issues. So the city

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Speaker 10: is becoming completely mismanaged and the mayor is distracted, and

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Speaker 10: the best thing for him to do is to step.

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Speaker 11: Aside to deal with these issues, and that is I

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Speaker 11: think the best thing for the city.

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Speaker 10: Although I am concerned that we may end up with

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Speaker 10: somebody worse than Mayor Adams, but I think it's the

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Speaker 10: right thing to do if we are going to have

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Speaker 10: any hope of restoring some sanity to this city, to

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Speaker 10: make it governorable again, and to really give New Yorkers

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Speaker 10: the government that it deserves.

437
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 4: Well, of course, if he does choose to resign, which

438
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 4: at this point he maintains he will not, acting mayor

439
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 4: would be put into place, then a special election would

440
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 4: be held to choose a replacement. Congressman, would you be

441
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 4: interested in the role should it be vacated?

442
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 11: Okay, you know I ran in twenty seventeen.

443
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 10: People have made it clear they don't necessarily want a

444
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 10: Republican being the mayor of New York City. I think

445
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 10: that we have to, though, collectively, find a candidate that

446
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 10: is palatable across the political spectrum, somebody that could have

447
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 10: a like a business background, somebody who can really take

448
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 10: the problems that we're facing as a city and bring

449
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 10: some management.

450
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 11: One of the biggest problems facing our city right.

451
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 10: Now is the fact that they're contracting hundreds of billions

452
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 10: of dollars out to nonprofit organizations. This is work that

453
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 10: should be doing number one within the city government, and

454
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 10: the government has just gotten so big and so broad.

455
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:36,120
Speaker 10: They're outsourcing so much of its responsibility in areas where

456
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 10: the city shouldn't even be focusing. So we need to

457
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 10: get the city budget under control. We need to make

458
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 10: sure that we're actually using taxpayer money wisely for the

459
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:51,439
Speaker 10: things that we need in this city, transportation, infrastructure, public safety.

460
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 11: And good education for our children. Those should be the

461
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 11: top focuses.

462
00:25:55,240 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 10: Not providing billions of dollars in taxpayer funds to citizens

463
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,640
Speaker 10: of other countries who came into the country legally and

464
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 10: are even committing crimes. So I think that you know,

465
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 10: I would like to see somebody like a Mike Bloomberg

466
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 10: run again. Somebody who has a business background, knows how

467
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 10: to manage a large organization, and somebody who'll be more

468
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 10: of a centrist that Republicans and Democrats and independents can embrace,

469
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 10: because this city has gone way too far to the

470
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 10: left and we're paying for the policies of Bill de

471
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,400
Speaker 10: Blasio and Eric Adams. But remember the reason why this

472
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 10: is a sanctuary city, not supporting people committing crimes in

473
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 10: our city is because of Bill Deblasa in the far

474
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 10: left council.

475
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 11: So we need somebody who's gonna bring it more to

476
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 11: the center.

477
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 4: At this point, Congressman, I will disclose that Michael Bloomberg

478
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 4: is the founder of majority owner of Bloomberg LP, which

479
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 4: saws Bloomberg Media and this radio network. But we appreciate

480
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,160
Speaker 4: your thoughts. As always, I do wonder about your thoughts

481
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 4: as well and what this does. We know that New

482
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 4: York's congressional districts are very much battleground zones in this election,

483
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,879
Speaker 4: some of your colleagues are in tough races. Do you

484
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 4: think whatever detrimental effect this may have on New York City,

485
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 4: there is some benefit for your colleagues in this news.

486
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 4: Does it make it easier for Republicans to keep the House?

487
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 10: Well, Look, I think that the fact that there's been

488
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 10: quite a few Democrats that I've had to resign and

489
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 10: disgrace at the city and state level over the past

490
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 10: few years may may bring some benefits to Republicans. I

491
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 10: think maybe people see that, you know, we need some

492
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 10: type of balance and common sense in our government and

493
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 10: elect honorable people, not just by party label, but people

494
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 10: that are actually going to do the job and do

495
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 10: it right and do it honestly. But certainly I see

496
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 10: no joy in seeing my city being torn apart right

497
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 10: now and the issues that we're facing that you need

498
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 10: desperate leadership and management, real management. And I'm very concerned

499
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 10: about the future of our city. I've been concerned for

500
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 10: quite some time over the late last years has taken

501
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 10: a real downward turn, and we need to put somebody

502
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 10: in the helm that is going to correct this ship,

503
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 10: or else we're gonna have real fiscal problems for forever.

504
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 10: And I don't know that New York City can return

505
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 10: if we don't If we don't fix.

506
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 4: It now, Congressman, I have less than a minute left here.

507
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 4: But one of your Republican colleagues has also faced some

508
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 4: allegations within the last week about uh corruption and more specifically,

509
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,199
Speaker 4: actually paying those close to him to serve in his

510
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 4: office with taxpayer dollars. Anthony Desposito. Should he resign as well?

511
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 10: Well what we've done in the past, or we refer

512
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 10: it to Ethics Committee to do an investigation. Based on

513
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 10: what I've seen so far, there has been nothing that's

514
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 10: been that violated any laws taking place. But should we

515
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 10: find out more information than we should handle that accordingly

516
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 10: when the time is appropriate.

517
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 11: As you know, I've had no problem calling for George

518
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 11: Santos to resign. I've voted to expound, do you remember,

519
00:28:59,360 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 11: so I have.

520
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 10: No problem calling on those of my party when it's

521
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 10: proven that they've done something illegal and wrong.

522
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 4: All right, Congresswoman, really appreciate you hopping on with us

523
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 4: as we deal with this historic news in New York,

524
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 4: that is, the Republican Congresswoman Nicole mally Takis of New York.

525
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 4: Appreciate your time joining us on the day in which,

526
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 4: as we've been telling you here on Bloomberg Radio, Mayor

527
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 4: Eric Adams has been indicted on federal bribery and fraud charges.

528
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 4: We will continue to follow this story.

529
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch

530
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: Just Live weekdays at noon Eastern on Apple car Play,

531
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 1: and then roudo with the Bloomberg Business app.

532
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 2: Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch

533
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 2: us live on YouTube.

534
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 4: We're going to continue this conversation now and move to

535
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 4: other subjects as well, as we head to Capitol Hill,

536
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 4: where we find Republican Congressman Byron Donalds of Florida, who also,

537
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 4: of course, is a vocal surrogate for the Trump campaign. Congressman,

538
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 4: always great to see you here on bloom TV and radio. Obviously,

539
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 4: we are seeing another indictment of a very high profile

540
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 4: political figure in American politics. Donald Trump himself, as you

541
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 4: well know, has come under multiple indictments as well. Do

542
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 4: you see any parallels between this Adams case and the

543
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 4: Trump ones.

544
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 12: I really don't, because you're talking about two very different issues.

545
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 12: If you look at the indictments of President Trump, you're

546
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 12: talking about novel legal theories never been tried before, where

547
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 12: they tried to basically push a square peg into a

548
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 12: round poll to try to get the top Republican in

549
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 12: the United States the nominee for the President of the

550
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 12: United States and Donald J. Trump Versus what appears to be,

551
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 12: according to the allegations against Eric Adams, a very deep

552
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 12: and massive campaign finance violation where they were bringing wirefraud charges, etc.

553
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 12: The very scheme is very different altogether. They're using tried

554
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 12: and true criminal charge against the mayor of New York

555
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 12: versus these insane novel legal theories trying to criminalize Donald Trump.

556
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 12: They are very two things, and I could go step

557
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 12: by step with you through every one of these indictments,

558
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 12: but the two are not the same. And I think

559
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 12: we got to be careful not to try to make

560
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 12: it seem as that now the Department of Justice is

561
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 12: operating with clean hands all the time. What we have

562
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 12: seen on Capitol Hill is that that.

563
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 3: Is not the case.

564
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 4: Well, Congressman, as we consider the difference in these cases here.

565
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 4: I was just speaking with one of your Republican colleagues

566
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 4: from New York, Nicole Mallya Tacas. He was talking about

567
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 4: how frankly, city leadership just doesn't need this distraction because

568
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 4: the city needs to run. And it's at that point

569
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 4: I would point out that many of these cases against

570
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 4: Donald Trump have not been wrapped up yet. In fact,

571
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 4: he hasn't been sentenced in the case in which he

572
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 4: was actually convicted. Why should New Yorkers worry about the

573
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 4: distraction of having to fight a legal battle on the

574
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 4: part of the New York City mayor, but not worry

575
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 4: about the distractions that could face a president of the

576
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 4: United States.

577
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 12: Well, this is a great question, and let me unfold that.

578
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 12: Number One, the charges that have been brought, in my view,

579
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 12: ridiculously against Donald Trump will have no bearing whatsoever on

580
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 12: his ability to run the United States of America. Why

581
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 12: would I say that. Number One, these charges that were

582
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 12: brought around around mar Lago documents, the same stuff could

583
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 12: have been charged against Joe Biden. The Department of Justice

584
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 12: did not charge Joe Biden. And the reason why they

585
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 12: didn't do that is because they said he was a

586
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 12: well meaning old man. He was facing the same investigation.

587
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 12: I would say, Joe Biden's done a terrible job, but

588
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 12: it's not stopped him from doing his job when it

589
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 12: comes to Eric Adams in New York. And this is

590
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 12: why I'm saying it's important that you cannot try to

591
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 12: create some moral equivalency between these two situations. What Eric

592
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 12: Adams apparently is facing is dealing with major campaign finance violations,

593
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 12: and I mean major to the tunes of tens of

594
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 12: millions of dollars from overseas. Very different matter than the

595
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 12: ridiculous indictments brought to us by Jack Smith Merrick Garland,

596
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 12: the ridiculous rec go charges down in Georgia that make

597
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 12: no sense at all. And obviously what happened in Lower Manhattan,

598
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 12: where they had to reach into the past for something

599
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 12: that the Federal Election Commission even said there was no

600
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 12: there there. In New York, they basically tried to make

601
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 12: a crime that did not exist. That's wrong, and that's

602
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 12: not going to stop Donald Trump from being able to

603
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 12: lead our country and get our country back on track

604
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 12: and making America great again.

605
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 4: Congressman, I'd like to ask you about the business of

606
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 4: your chamber as well as we find you on Capitol

607
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 4: Hill today, having yesterday, of course, seen the House and

608
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 4: the Senate pass a three month continuing resolution to keep

609
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 4: the government funded until December twentieth. I understand you or

610
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 4: a know on that bill, and I wonder what you

611
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,479
Speaker 4: make of the way Speaker Johnson handled all of this,

612
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 4: knowing his original plan for a six months R with

613
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 4: the Save Act attached didn't make it through. It had

614
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 4: to go with this clean cr plan B. Does he

615
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 4: deserve to be Speaker again if the House is able

616
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 4: to maintain the Republicans that is the majority.

617
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 12: Well, look, I think the first answer to your core

618
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 12: question is yes. Mike Johnson's in a tough spot. It's

619
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 12: been a very difficult Congress to navigate. I will add

620
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 12: that one of the reasons we are at this point

621
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 12: here on Capitol Hill is because Chuck Schumer, Senate Democrats,

622
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 12: and the White House have done nothing with respect to

623
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 12: trying to find common sense solutions to funding the government

624
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 12: going forward. In the House, under the leadership of Mike Johnson,

625
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 12: we passed five of the twelve appropriation bills, which fund

626
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 12: seventy three percent of the government. What did the Senate do.

627
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,359
Speaker 12: I will tell you what the Senate did under Chuck

628
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 12: Schumer's leadership.

629
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:36,720
Speaker 5: They did nothing.

630
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 12: They did no homework, They passed no bills, They came

631
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 12: with no solutions. They didn't even try to work on

632
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 12: this over the summer months. They basically sat in the

633
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 12: Senate and just waited till the last minute, which is

634
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 12: typical of Washington, DC to wait till the last minute

635
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 12: so you can have to you're forced to deal with

636
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 12: some massive bill to avoid a shutdown, which I did

637
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 12: vote against because I don't believe we should be doing

638
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 12: that right now. But then you set up a situation

639
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 12: where you go into a Christmas on the bus that

640
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 12: nobody reads. It is the same song in dance in Washington, DC.

641
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 12: That's at the feet of Chuck Schumer and Joe Biden

642
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 12: and Kamala Harris. Because they've had months to come to

643
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 12: an agreement with House Republicans on federal spending, they have

644
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 12: chosen not to. So I think what people really need

645
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 12: to understand is that it's a difficult situation. Whether whether

646
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 12: it was Mike Johnson or Kevin McCarthy or Paul Ryan

647
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 12: or John Bayner or any other Republican Speaker, because the

648
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 12: truth on Capitol Hill is that Senate Democrats and House

649
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 12: Democrats for that matter, do not want to negotiate spending

650
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,839
Speaker 12: in an orderly manner where people can come to compromise.

651
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 12: They want to wait for the last minute where you

652
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 12: have to take you where you're dealing with a take

653
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 12: it or leave it deal. And you have members on

654
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 12: Capitol Hill who don't want the American people to be

655
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 12: left in the lurch.

656
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 5: It is an indictment of the process here.

657
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 12: Democrats need to step up and do their job for one.

658
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 4: And of course we all have questions as to whether

659
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 4: or not the deal that former Speaker Kevin McCarthy, who

660
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 4: you just mentioned, and the deal he did strike with

661
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 4: Democrats will stand ultimately at the end of the day,

662
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 4: especially that side deal we have all heard so much about.

663
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 4: I'd like to ask you, as well, Congressman, about what's

664
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 4: happening in the capital today. Ukrainian President of Vladimir Zelensky

665
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 4: is there visiting with some of your colleagues before he

666
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 4: meets with Biden and Harris later this afternoon. Many of

667
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 4: your Republican colleagues have had criticism for Zelensky, with some

668
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 4: of the comments he has made about Donald Trump while

669
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 4: here in the US in the last week, as well

670
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 4: as a visit to Pennsylvania and specifically a plant that

671
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:39,919
Speaker 4: is making ammunition that is helping Ukraine in this war.

672
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 4: Mike Johnson, the Speaker, did call for the firing of

673
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 4: the Ukrainian ambassador to the US over that visit. What

674
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 4: is your thought on all of this?

675
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 12: I agree with I agree with Mike Johnson. And here's

676
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,760
Speaker 12: why you now have a foreign leader who's now making

677
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 12: plant visits in one of the key battleground states in

678
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 12: our presidential election. Vladimir Zelenski is now talking tough or

679
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 12: talking badly about Donald Trump.

680
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 5: And he's here me.

681
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 12: Obviously he's gonna have meetings with the President and members

682
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,720
Speaker 12: on Capitol Hill. But that stop in Pennsylvania was highly

683
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 12: political in the middle of a presidential election. You know,

684
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 12: the Democrats would lecture us about foreign influence in our elections. Well,

685
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 12: what is more, what demonstrates foreign influence anymore than the

686
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 12: leader of a foreign nation touring a facility in a

687
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 12: battleground state forty days before a presidential election. This is outrageous.

688
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 12: But I just want to be very clear with your viewers.

689
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,720
Speaker 12: The reason why this is allowed to occur is because

690
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 12: most of the media will not question Kamala Harris or

691
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,399
Speaker 12: Joe Biden. That's if Kamala Harris or Joe Biden are

692
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 12: even available to answer your questions, and they have no

693
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 12: problem taking whatever help they feel they need from anywhere

694
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 12: around the globe to win an election. It is election interference.

695
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 12: It is wrong, and that's why Mike Johnson has made

696
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 12: his stance. I stay with him in that and my

697
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 12: colleagues on Capitol Hill, we need to be investigating this

698
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 12: because you can't have foreign leaders coming into our country

699
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 12: laying laying down their markers of who should be the

700
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:11,839
Speaker 12: next commander in chief.

701
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:12,399
Speaker 5: For our nation.

702
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 4: And finally, Congressman, with your district in mind, in our

703
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 4: last minute with you, we all are obviously watching Hurricane

704
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 4: Helene as well as barrels toward Florida. Could be an

705
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 4: incredibly strong storm. What does the state of Florida need

706
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 4: in preparation and potentially in the aftermath is it getting

707
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 4: is it not getting anything that it needs?

708
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 12: Well, Look, I know our governor has been in contact

709
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 12: with FEMA. They've been they've already been working on this

710
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 12: in Florida. Unfortunately. Yes, we deal with hurricanes. Our leadership

711
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 12: knows how to get this done. I know Governor DeSantis

712
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 12: has already pre positioned assets in key areas to respond

713
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 12: to the aftermath of the storm. In my district, we

714
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 12: were hit with Hurricane Ian two years ago. We worked

715
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 12: with the governor, with the governor of our state, we

716
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 12: worked with FEMA and other partners to try.

717
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 5: To build our area very quickly.

718
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 12: Florida, unfortunately, unfortunately, is accustomed to this. We will get

719
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 12: through it once again, and we'll be working with everybody

720
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 12: to make sure that the people of Florida are restored

721
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 12: and they get back on their feet as quickly as possible.

722
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 4: All right, Congressman, appreciate your time today, sir. That is

723
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 4: Republican Congressman Byron Donald of the state of Florida. Thank

724
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 4: you so much, and stay safe out there if you're

725
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 4: heading home in the next few days. This, of course,

726
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 4: is Balance of Power on Bloomberg TV and radio. We

727
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 4: will have much more ahead.

728
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,839
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast kens

729
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 1: Just Live weekdays at noon Eastern on Applecarplay, and.

730
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 3: Then Rodoto with the Bloomberg Business app.

731
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 2: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our

732
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 2: flagship New York station, Just Say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

733
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 4: Love here in the US, which of course follows a

734
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,720
Speaker 4: big update in the Asian session, specifically for Chinese equities.

735
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 4: Rallied more than four percent in the aftermath of new

736
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 4: promises from the polab Buro as they aim, they say,

737
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 4: to revive growth with pledges to support fiscal spending and

738
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:11,720
Speaker 4: to stop the declining they see in the property sector.

739
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 4: More promises of stimulus coming to shore up the world's

740
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 4: second largest economy. And our next guests just actually returned

741
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 4: from a visit to China to discuss some of their

742
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,799
Speaker 4: macroeconomic issues. I'm pleased to say joining me here on

743
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 4: Balance of Power on Bloomberg TV and Radio as Jay Shambah,

744
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 4: he is the US Treasury Undersecretary for International Affairs. Sir,

745
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 4: thank you so much for being with us. As I mentioned,

746
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 4: you just returned from China, where I believe your fifth

747
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 4: round of talks with your economic counterparts. They're part of

748
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 4: what you were planning to raise, were issues of Chinese

749
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,879
Speaker 4: over capacity, the concern that China is generating so much

750
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 4: that they don't necessarily have demand for at home and

751
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 4: therefore flooding the global markets with it. Do the stimulus

752
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 4: measures that we have seen China outline over the course

753
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 4: of the last week satisfy some of your concern? Do

754
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 4: they go far enough to revive domestic demand in China?

755
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 13: Well, first, thanks very much for having me here. What

756
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,800
Speaker 13: I would say is I'm glad to see the Chinese

757
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 13: senior policy makers talking about a lack of demand in

758
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 13: the economy, about the need to support growth in the economy,

759
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 13: especially from domestic demand. I don't know that I've seen

760
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 13: anything concrete yet that I think would really answer the

761
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 13: mail on that, but I think it's an important step

762
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,800
Speaker 13: that they are acknowledging that domestic demand needs to go faster,

763
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:29,759
Speaker 13: and that they need to support domestic their growth with

764
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 13: consumption and with domestic demand. I think you know when

765
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 13: we've as you mentioned, we were there for what we

766
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 13: call the Economic Working Group. I led a kind of

767
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 13: senior delegation of treasury officials there to talk to senior

768
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 13: Chinese policy makers, and one of the key points we

769
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 13: raised with them is that their savings rate is really

770
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 13: high that leads this huge kind of imbalance in their

771
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 13: economy unless they can drive some sort of demand for it,

772
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 13: and otherwise what they've been doing is channeling that savings

773
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 13: towards subsidies to manufacturing industry, producing a lot that they

774
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 13: don't have domestic demand for. And that's what I'd like

775
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 13: to see more of. And I think it's a good

776
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 13: start to see them talk about it. I think we

777
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:10,800
Speaker 13: need to see more concrete policies.

778
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,800
Speaker 4: Did you censor that your counterparts are understanding of those

779
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 4: concerns and maybe thinking about wider behavioral changes in that regard.

780
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 4: What was the reception like when you raised these things.

781
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 13: So this is something we've been talking to the Chinese

782
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 13: about for quite a while. I'd say that in one

783
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,359
Speaker 13: of our trips in February, we really pushed the point

784
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 13: quite hard. And then when Secretary Yellen was there in

785
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 13: April of this year, she really tried to lay out

786
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 13: the case for why this was a problem for both

787
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:39,720
Speaker 13: the world economy and really why it was a problem

788
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 13: for the Chinese economy. You don't want to subsidize a

789
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 13: lot of firms that are losing money. It's inefficient, it's

790
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 13: a waste of fiscal resources. It's also just low productivity

791
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 13: for your economy. So one of our advantages, frankly at

792
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 13: Treasury right now is we have a world renowned economists

793
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 13: leading Treasury, and so people take her seriously when she's there,

794
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 13: and they really do want to listen to her. From

795
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 13: a political perspective, they certainly push back on the narrative

796
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 13: of over capacity. But I think what we're seeing on

797
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 13: the policy grounds are steps hopefully that it will lead

798
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 13: to ones in the right direction.

799
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 4: Well to your point, sir, on Secretary Yellen, do you

800
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 4: expect we will see another meeting between her and Holly

801
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 4: Fung before this administration is over, I'm not sure.

802
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 13: I think both sides view this channel as a really

803
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 13: important one, and that's one reason I was just there,

804
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 13: was to make sure that we could keep robust engagement.

805
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 13: We've always said it's not tenable to have the two

806
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,439
Speaker 13: largest world economies not talk to each other.

807
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:36,760
Speaker 5: And one thing the Secretary.

808
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,319
Speaker 13: Has often said is we need to talk about the

809
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 13: things we agree about and where we can work together,

810
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 13: but it's equally as important, if not more so, to

811
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 13: talk about the things where we don't agree.

812
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 5: And so that's we try to go and do both.

813
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:52,760
Speaker 4: Cooperation and competition, if you will, Sir, I do wonder,

814
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:54,880
Speaker 4: especially given some of the rhetoric we're seeing on the

815
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 4: campaign trail from Donald Trump, which I won't ask you

816
00:43:57,640 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 4: to comment directly on, but he of course is talking

817
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 4: about implementing higher tariffs on Chinese exports. Do you see

818
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,319
Speaker 4: tariffs as a mechanism to address some of these over

819
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 4: capacity concerns essentially raise the cost of some of these

820
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:11,919
Speaker 4: goods that are being made so that people don't want

821
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 4: to import them and that supply doesn't actually hit foreign markets.

822
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,399
Speaker 4: What is the proper role of trade specific measures here?

823
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 13: So we have used trade tools already, I think narrowly

824
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:27,240
Speaker 13: targeted and strategic trade measures can sometimes try to either

825
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 13: shift the calculus for a specific product, or for that matter,

826
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 13: maybe change the other countries strategy a little bit. So

827
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 13: I think narrowly targeted strategic tariffs can be a useful tool.

828
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 13: One of the reasons we've been trying to have this

829
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 13: conversation with China is to make clear that it won't

830
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 13: just be the US doing this. You'll see this happening

831
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 13: from a lot of countries, and that if they do

832
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 13: start to see whether it's tariffs or other trade measures,

833
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 13: they shouldn't think of it as US attacking China or

834
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 13: US being against China. They should recognize that this is

835
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,840
Speaker 13: really defensive on our part, and China sometimes has agency

836
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 13: here they can change their own policies in ways that

837
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 13: would not lead to the rest of the world putting

838
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 13: tariffs on their goods.

839
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,279
Speaker 4: Of course, sirwell, the US's focus is on its own

840
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 4: relationship with China. There is concern as well about China's

841
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 4: relationship with other countries, including adversaries like Russia. We of

842
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:23,280
Speaker 4: course saw Secretary Yellen earlier this year warning about companies

843
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,359
Speaker 4: providing material support Chinese companies that is, to Russia's war,

844
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 4: whether it's through banking or other goods, that if there

845
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 4: are providing the support, they risk being sanctioned by the US.

846
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 4: Have you started to see behavioral changes on the parts

847
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 4: of Chinese banks or other companies when it comes to

848
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 4: dealing with Russia.

849
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 13: So this is a topic that we talk about a

850
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 13: lot with our counterparts. They recognize this is something that

851
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 13: is a serious strategic interest of ours, and so China

852
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 13: has said many times that they have no intention of

853
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 13: allowing lethal aid to go to Russia. Where we've been

854
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 13: really pressing them is on dual use goods that could

855
00:45:58,160 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 13: be used by Russia to kind of build up the

856
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 13: war machine. What we've made clear is that if financial

857
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 13: firms are processing transactions towards sanctioned entities or with these

858
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,720
Speaker 13: dual use goods, they're exposed to sanctions. Large Chinese banks

859
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 13: understand that connectivity to the US financial system and the

860
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 13: global financial system is essential for them, and so neither

861
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 13: those firms nor their regulators want them to do anything

862
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 13: that runs afoul of our sanctions.

863
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 5: So a lot of this is.

864
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:25,839
Speaker 13: Doing the hard work of making clear what really would

865
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 13: expose you to risk and what wouldn't what exactly we're

866
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 13: trying to get firms not to do.

867
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,320
Speaker 5: Sometimes that can lead to where we've had to sanction

868
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 5: a firm.

869
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 13: Not financial firms so far, but we have had to

870
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 13: sanction a few Chinese firms because we felt that they

871
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 13: were crossing lines. And what we try to do through

872
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 13: dialogue is in some sense stop the behavior before it

873
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 13: ever happens and before we have to take sanctions.

874
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 4: And finally, Sir, in our last minutes with you here,

875
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 4: i'd like to ask you kind of a wider question.

876
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,720
Speaker 4: It does relate to Russian behavior as well, the ongoing

877
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 4: war between Russia and Ukraine and one of the great

878
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 4: bread baskets of the world, a hot war in the

879
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:03,799
Speaker 4: Middle East as well, where of course a lot of

880
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 4: energy is centered. How concerned are you when you look

881
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 4: at the global economic outlook and some of these risks

882
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 4: that are present about things that could refuel inflation, for example,

883
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 4: or otherwise be disruptive to a global economy and a

884
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:19,240
Speaker 4: US economy. Frankly that to this point has been able

885
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,240
Speaker 4: to hold in there even as we've seen inflationary pressures

886
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 4: come down.

887
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 13: Look, I'm an economist by training, and so I worry

888
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 13: about everything.

889
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:29,280
Speaker 5: But that being said, I think.

890
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 13: What we know is that geostrategic risks or geopolitical risks

891
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 13: are always out there. What we try to do is

892
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 13: minimize any potential impact on the US economy. As you noted,

893
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 13: I think we've seen a really strong US economy.

894
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 5: I think it was a bloomberg pole.

895
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 13: Maybe a year and change ago, where one hundred percent

896
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 13: of the people polled thought we'd have a recession in

897
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:48,240
Speaker 13: twenty three.

898
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 5: We didn't.

899
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 13: We got through the year with actually quite strong growth,

900
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 13: and we've managed to see inflation come down while the

901
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 13: unemployment rate has stayed at a fairly historically low level.

902
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 13: That's despite lot of challenges around the globe. We're obviously

903
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,399
Speaker 13: doing everything we can at Treasury and across the US

904
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 13: government to minimize any of those challenges to prevent disruptions

905
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,439
Speaker 13: to energy markets or food markets or things like that

906
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 13: that could damage the world economy and really blow back

907
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 13: on US consumers. So we think about it all the time,

908
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 13: we worry about it all the time, but we are

909
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 13: hopefully taking the steps that would prevent those shocks from

910
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 13: really reverberating.

911
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 4: Here all right, Jay Shamba, the US Treasury Under Secretary

912
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 4: for International Affairs, Affairs greatly appreciate your time today, sir,

913
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 4: thank you so much for being here with us on

914
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 4: balance of power.

915
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 3: Now.

916
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 4: Of course, the other big story we're following here on

917
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 4: balance of power comes from New York with the federal

918
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 4: indictment of Mayor Eric Adams on bribery and fraud charges.

919
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 4: We want to dig more into the actual charges he

920
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 4: is facing now and turn to Dave Ehrenberg, who is

921
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 4: state attorney for Palm Beach County in Florida, but is

922
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:53,320
Speaker 4: in New York today. It is the place to be

923
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,359
Speaker 4: in the news today, Dave. Great to have you back

924
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 4: here on Bloomberg TV and radio. Obviously, there's a number

925
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:03,400
Speaker 4: of federal charges here, alligation of accepting illegal contributions, including

926
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 4: from foreign agents. How serious are these charges as a prosecutor?

927
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 4: How easy is this case to prosecute? How hard will

928
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 4: the defense be for Mayor Adams?

929
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 5: Kaylie Good to be with you.

930
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 14: The challenge is proving intent that Adams knew that he

931
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 14: was accepting illegal campaign contributions and bribes. It's much easier

932
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 14: to prove the free gifts, the air travel, that kind

933
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:28,840
Speaker 14: of stuff. But really the bread and butter of this

934
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 14: indictment is the wire fraud accusation, which is a federal

935
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 14: prosecutor's best friend. It's relatively easy to prove, and he

936
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 14: can get you up to twenty years in prison. He's

937
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 14: facing up to forty five years in total. I think

938
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 14: the stuff that was laid out in the indictment shows

939
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:45,959
Speaker 14: that that Adams allegedly was trying to obstruct, was trying

940
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,240
Speaker 14: to hide his involvement in all this, changing his passwords

941
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 14: on his phone, trying to cover up the documents that

942
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 14: would have shown that he took these trips and these

943
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 14: campaign contributions. So they've got a good case against him.

944
00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 14: After all, they're not going to go after the powerful

945
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 14: mayor of New York City unless they've got the goods.

946
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:04,839
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, that was a question I had when this

947
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 4: news first drop. How ironcloud does a case need to

948
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:11,400
Speaker 4: be to essentially make a sitting mayor of the country's

949
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 4: largest city a criminal defendant. It was raised to me

950
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 4: though earlier on the program, Dave this notion that while

951
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 4: this indictment is vivid in detail in terms of messaging

952
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 4: and texting that was exchanged with Adam staffers and various others,

953
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 4: included representatives from Turkish airlines, for example, when it comes

954
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 4: to some of this travel, not much of it is

955
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 4: actual messaging from Adams himself. Is that a complicated factor

956
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 4: here for the prosecution.

957
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 14: It'd be better if you have his own words. But

958
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,839
Speaker 14: they do have the cell phones and the computers of

959
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 14: a lot of his associates, and that's how you know

960
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 14: that the Feds are serious. Once they have your electronic communications,

961
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 14: something's going to go down. They've been investigating this for

962
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,279
Speaker 14: a while. I mean they've traced this back for nine

963
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 14: years that he's allegedly received these improper benefits, and then

964
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 14: they were specific that The alleged bribe occurred when the

965
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 14: Turkish got sought to get an expedited approval of this

966
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:05,840
Speaker 14: thirty story consulate that was ready to go, except the

967
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 14: Fire department said that doesn't meet code. Well, they invested

968
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 14: allegedly in atoms and then Adams supposedly leaned on the

969
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 14: fire department and the certificate of occupancy was granted thereafter.

970
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 14: So that's where you have your bribery, that's where you

971
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,359
Speaker 14: have your wire fraud in partment. And then you have

972
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 14: the abuse allegedly of the matching contribution.

973
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 5: Laws in New York, where you're entitled to.

974
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 14: Get matching campaign contributions if it comes from an individual donor.

975
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 14: So then the Turkis's government apparently funneled the money through

976
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 14: individuals so that it could then be multiplied under the

977
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 14: campaign finance laws. So he get advantage of that, and

978
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 14: that's where he's also being charged. So he's got a

979
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 14: lot of problems ahead, and I would suspect that some

980
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 14: of the people closest to him will flip on him

981
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 14: to save their own hides.

982
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:56,720
Speaker 4: Well, and we have seen the resignation of a number

983
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 4: of city officials others who of course have had their

984
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:01,919
Speaker 4: own proper already searched over the course of the last

985
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:05,440
Speaker 4: several months as this corruption investigation was ongoing. Is that

986
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 4: really what's what's the lynchpin. The critical point here for

987
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,800
Speaker 4: the prosecution is to get to those flips to actually happen.

988
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 14: That matters a lot to have him on the stand.

989
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 14: Adams has some very prominent attorneys representing him, so the

990
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 14: FEDS are going to have to come with all their

991
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 14: firepower here. That means flipping witnesses who know where the

992
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 14: bodies are, very metaphorically speaking, also using the electronic communications

993
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 14: against Adams. One interesting anecdote need the indictment is that

994
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 14: Adams apparently was tipped off that he was about to

995
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 14: be searched having his phone seized, So when the Feds

996
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:45,240
Speaker 14: got his phones, he didn't have his personal phone on him,

997
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 14: that was left at home or wherever. And then he

998
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 14: previously had changed the password on that personal phone. The

999
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 14: personal phone is where the more incriminating stuff apparently was,

1000
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 14: and he changed the password made it much harder for

1001
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 14: the Feds to access. And so he apparently knew what

1002
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 14: he was doing and that's going to be used against

1003
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 14: him too. It's all about intent.

1004
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 4: Finally, Dave. In our final moment with you, I'd like

1005
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 4: to ask you about a question a legal case much

1006
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 4: closer to home in Florida, which of course, was the

1007
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:18,240
Speaker 4: attempted assassination of Donald Trump just weeks ago. The man

1008
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:23,400
Speaker 4: Ryan Ruth, who was initially charged with firearms charges related

1009
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:27,319
Speaker 4: to that, was indicted on an attempted assassination charge just

1010
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 4: this week. How does that case move forward from here?

1011
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 14: The Feds are doing a good job. First, they started

1012
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 14: with a low hanging fruit, the firearms offences that kept

1013
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:38,840
Speaker 14: Ruth in jail, and then they came back after the

1014
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 14: evidence was developed to charge Ruth with attempted assassination that

1015
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 14: can get the guy up to life in prison. So

1016
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 14: when Governor DeSantis and former President Trump accused the feds

1017
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 14: of small ball, no, they're going for it all here

1018
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:55,239
Speaker 14: because they've got that handwritten note from Ruth that shows

1019
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 14: that he did apparently intend to assassinate Donald Trump. So

1020
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:00,720
Speaker 14: the Feds are going to move forward with this. Ruth

1021
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:03,239
Speaker 14: will continue to plead not guilty. I don't think he

1022
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:05,240
Speaker 14: could a plead deal out of this unless it involves

1023
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 14: decades in prison. So he's not going anywhere anytime.

1024
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 4: Soon, all right, Dave Ehrenberg, the state attorney for Palm

1025
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:15,719
Speaker 4: Beach County. Always great to have you here on Bloomberg

1026
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 4: TV and radio. We appreciate your time, and of course

1027
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:20,320
Speaker 4: Bloomberg will be staying on top of this story.

1028
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:26,839
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast Ken

1029
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 1: Just Live weekdays at noon Eastern on Apple.

1030
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 3: Car Play and then roud Oto with the Bloomberg Business app.

1031
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 2: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our

1032
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:40,719
Speaker 2: flagship New York station, Just Say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

1033
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 4: We're keeping an eye on not just those down ballot campaigns,

1034
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:47,840
Speaker 4: the presidential campaign as well. As this has been I

1035
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:50,520
Speaker 4: think we could call it Economy Week for the presidential candidates,

1036
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 4: both Donald Trump and Kamala Harris giving speeches and key

1037
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 4: battleground states this week outlining their different policy proposals, some

1038
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 4: of them specifically targeted, for example, at manufacturing. Harris spoke

1039
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:05,359
Speaker 4: in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, yesterday, and after doing so, sat down

1040
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 4: for an interview on MSNBC, where she faced more questions

1041
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 4: around these proposals and some questions around the proposals of

1042
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 4: her opponent, Donald Trump. Here's one thing she said to

1043
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 4: Stephanie Ruy.

1044
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 15: Part of it is you don't just throw around the

1045
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 15: idea of just tariffs across the board. And that's part

1046
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:24,719
Speaker 15: of the problem with Donald Trump. Frankly, and I say

1047
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 15: this in all sincerity, he's just not very serious about

1048
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 15: how he thinks about some of these issues. And one

1049
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 15: must be serious and have a plan, any real plan

1050
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 15: that's not just about some talking point ending in an

1051
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 15: exclamation at a political rally, but actually putting the thought

1052
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 15: into what will be the return on the investment, what

1053
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:49,160
Speaker 15: will be the economic impact on everyday people.

1054
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:53,839
Speaker 4: So we want to get more into those questions now,

1055
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:56,040
Speaker 4: and turned to row Hit Kumar, who was principal and

1056
00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:59,400
Speaker 4: co leader of Washington's National Tax Services at PwC and

1057
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 4: former policy director and deputy chief of staff to Senate

1058
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 4: Leader Mitch McConnell. Here with me in our Washington, d C. Studio.

1059
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 4: It's good to see you, as always, row Hit. She

1060
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 4: suggested that some of the ideas put forward by Trump,

1061
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 4: including around blanket tariff policy, she called them not serious policies.

1062
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:16,400
Speaker 4: Would you agree with that?

1063
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 16: Creation serious policies? And I think people dismiss them at

1064
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:25,000
Speaker 16: their own peril. Congress over the last almost one hundred years,

1065
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:27,719
Speaker 16: has actually delegated quite a bit of authority to the executive.

1066
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:31,239
Speaker 16: Those authorities have never been tested in the way that

1067
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:34,799
Speaker 16: foreign President Trump is talking about testing them. So one

1068
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:36,759
Speaker 16: assumes that if he actually does the things that he's

1069
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:38,840
Speaker 16: saying he's going to do, that ends up in litigation

1070
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:41,759
Speaker 16: and the courts to ultimately adjudicate the question. But I

1071
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:44,359
Speaker 16: think one thing that is lost in this conversation, so

1072
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 16: you know, there's a criticism of the tariff policy, which

1073
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 16: is that, well, this is a cost that's ultimately born

1074
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 16: by regular consumers sales tax, sales tax, right, which is

1075
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:54,480
Speaker 16: actually not too different than the way most of Western

1076
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 16: Europe funds it's government.

1077
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:56,960
Speaker 17: But that's maybe a separate question.

1078
00:56:57,320 --> 00:56:59,640
Speaker 16: I think what's lost in this conversation is we're sort

1079
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:03,240
Speaker 16: of there is a little bit of intentional fiction being engaged,

1080
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 16: which is these tariffs born by middle class consumers, et cetera.

1081
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:11,520
Speaker 16: But like the corporate tax increases that Vice President Harris

1082
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 16: is proposing, it embracing many of the Biden proposals that

1083
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:16,680
Speaker 16: those somehow come out of like a you know, out

1084
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 16: of a money tree that sits in a corporate boardroom

1085
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 16: or something like that. But the truth is, and there's

1086
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:25,240
Speaker 16: a ton of academic research on this question corporate tax increases.

1087
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 16: You know, corporations at some level don't actually have their

1088
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 16: own money. They have other people's money, right, They have

1089
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:33,240
Speaker 16: the money of their workers, their customers, and their shareholders.

1090
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 16: And so when you raise corporate taxes, it comes from

1091
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 16: some combination of workers, customers, and shareholders. And the academic

1092
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:42,400
Speaker 16: data sort of varies. What's the distribution of the burden,

1093
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 16: but it's roughly half. You know, some would say it's

1094
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:48,280
Speaker 16: half customers, some would say half labor. No one thinks

1095
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 16: it's all shareholders. And even if it were all shareholders,

1096
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 16: sixty one percent of the public owns share So all

1097
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:57,160
Speaker 16: of these proposals that are being kicked around the cost

1098
00:57:57,160 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 16: of it is ultimately born. To the extent that we

1099
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 16: actually pursue any of these policies, that's a separate question

1100
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 16: for Congress. Ultimately, perhaps to adjudicate the cost is born

1101
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:08,880
Speaker 16: by largely the same population of individuals.

1102
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:10,560
Speaker 17: It just shows up in slightly different ways.

1103
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:12,840
Speaker 4: Okay, So I guess it raises the question of what

1104
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:16,200
Speaker 4: is the more responsible policy to fill the Treasury's coffers.

1105
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 4: If you're looking at tax cuts or credits for certain

1106
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:23,240
Speaker 4: portions of the population, which they both are. Do tariffs work?

1107
00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 4: Is that offset or does it have to be higher

1108
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:29,600
Speaker 4: taxes of some would work economic consequence of that.

1109
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1110
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 16: So that's an interesting question because the tariff play is

1111
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 16: a little more complicated because it's not just one bounce

1112
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 16: of the ball. You raise tariffs and some other sort

1113
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 16: of third party estimators. I suggested that the tariffs AT's

1114
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 16: sort of the low end of what foreign President Trump

1115
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:46,479
Speaker 16: is talking about could raise. You have three hundred billion

1116
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:49,480
Speaker 16: dollars a year or three trillion dollars over the ensuing decade.

1117
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:51,920
Speaker 16: Just as a reminder, the tax cuts that expire at

1118
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 16: the end of twenty twenty five to fill that hole completely,

1119
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 16: if you want to extend all that tax relief, that

1120
00:58:57,200 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 16: would cost about four and a half trillion dollars over

1121
00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:00,600
Speaker 16: the next ten years.

1122
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:02,440
Speaker 17: This is real money even for the US government.

1123
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 16: So tariffs could you know, hypothetically fill a substantial peace,

1124
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:10,280
Speaker 16: if not the entirety of that whole. So it is real,

1125
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 16: it is certainly there. And likewise, on President or Vice

1126
00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 16: President Harris, potentially President Harris's side, allegor you raise the

1127
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 16: corporate tax rate to twenty eight percent. You know, that's

1128
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 16: worth at least a trillion dollars or so of additional revenue,

1129
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:23,680
Speaker 16: could be more, depending on you know where.

1130
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:24,120
Speaker 17: You draw the line.

1131
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:27,640
Speaker 16: Again, though, you know these are campaign proposals, right.

1132
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:30,280
Speaker 4: And as you pointed out, you need Congress to implement.

1133
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:32,600
Speaker 16: Well, you need Congress on corporate, corporate or any tax

1134
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:36,400
Speaker 16: policy changes that requires Congresses. Kind of blessing the tariff

1135
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:40,440
Speaker 16: play potentially right, And again, these these authorities have not

1136
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:42,640
Speaker 16: been tested in the way that former President Trump is

1137
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:45,520
Speaker 16: talking about testing them. But potentially tariffs could be done

1138
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:48,240
Speaker 16: by execute authority. They could certainly be done by Congress.

1139
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:50,600
Speaker 16: But separate question about whether you'd have the votes in

1140
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:51,160
Speaker 16: Congress to.

1141
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:52,920
Speaker 4: Do this well. And with that question, what are you

1142
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 4: telling clients right now with PwC about what you think

1143
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 4: is realistic knowing that there could be divided government? Are

1144
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 4: there areas of ten policy you do expect will change

1145
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 4: regardless of who is in ultimate control?

1146
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 16: I do, yeah, So you know, on the on the

1147
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:08,720
Speaker 16: sort of good news side, for lack of a better term,

1148
01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:10,920
Speaker 16: both parties have agreed that no one making less than

1149
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:13,640
Speaker 16: four under thousand dollars should experience this automatic tax increase

1150
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:16,240
Speaker 16: that happens at the end of twenty twenty five. So

1151
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:19,400
Speaker 16: that is now like table stakes in a divided government

1152
01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:21,840
Speaker 16: or even in unified control. No matter which party had

1153
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:24,439
Speaker 16: unified control, both parties say no one lessen four unite

1154
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:27,439
Speaker 16: thousand dollars should experience this automatic tax increase. That's about

1155
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:30,640
Speaker 16: ninety five percent of all income tax payers in the country.

1156
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:32,960
Speaker 16: There will be a negotiation if in divide a government

1157
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 16: of the more than four hundred thousand dollars crowd, There'll

1158
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:39,880
Speaker 16: be a negotiation over the pass through deduction, the state

1159
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:42,200
Speaker 16: tax exemption, you know, all the other child tax credit

1160
01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 16: which gets cut in half at the end of twenty

1161
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 16: twenty five, although there's I think general consensus that letting

1162
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 16: that cut in half is not preferred policy. And look,

1163
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:53,120
Speaker 16: I don't know who the next president is going to be,

1164
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:57,080
Speaker 16: but if former President Trump becomes President Trump again, then

1165
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:00,120
Speaker 16: you have to take this tariff question quite seriously and

1166
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 16: start looking at do we import product, where do we

1167
01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:06,120
Speaker 16: import it from? Is there a domestic alternative, and the like.

1168
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 16: So these are the kind of scenario planning questions we're

1169
01:01:08,280 --> 01:01:08,960
Speaker 16: going through.

1170
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:11,120
Speaker 4: Well and as we continue to do. So please come

1171
01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:12,960
Speaker 4: back and talk to us more about it. Wish we

1172
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:15,000
Speaker 4: had more time today. Rohit Kumar as principal and co

1173
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:18,640
Speaker 4: leader of Washington National Tax Services at PwC and of course,

1174
01:01:18,680 --> 01:01:21,520
Speaker 4: former deputy Chief of Staff to Mitch McConnell in the Senate.

1175
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:26,320
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Balance of Power podcast.

1176
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:30,680
Speaker 14: Make sure to subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify.

1177
01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:32,240
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1178
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:34,919
Speaker 9: You can find us live every weekday from Washington, DC

1179
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:37,760
Speaker 9: at noontime Eastern at Bloomberg dot com.