WEBVTT - On with Kara Swisher: Deepfake abuse panel, featuring Laurie Segall 0:00:01.280 --> 0:00:04.600 Hi, Mostly Human listeners, It's Lori Siegel. Today, I have 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:05.640 a treat for you. 0:00:06.040 --> 0:00:09.200 I'm sharing an episode of Kara Swisher's podcast On with 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:12.080 Kara Swisher. In it, Kara hosts a panel of deep 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:16.120 fake experts, including me, to discuss the threat, the current scope, 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:19.440 and the future of sexually explicit defake abuse. Now, if 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:21.680 you've been listening to our four part series Searching for 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:24.880 Mister deep Fakes, this is a perfect cap. If you're 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:26.880 new to the subject, it's a fantastic primmer. 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:30.479 Hope you enjoy. 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:35.559 Hey, folks, award of warning before we begin. Today's episode 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:40.360 discusses sexual violence, including rape, graphic sexual content, and suicide, 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:42.560 so you might want to keep this in mind when 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:57.760 you decide if and where to listen. Hi, everyone from 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:00.279 New York Magazine and the Vox Media podcast Now Work. 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:03.280 This is on with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:06.720 My guests today are attorney Kerry Goldberg, tech journalists and 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:11.080 CEO of Mostly Human Media, Lori Siegel, and VS. Supermanian, 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:15.759 the Walter P. Murphy, Professor of Computer Science at Northwestern University. 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:19.959 We're talking about non consensual deep fake pornography or AI 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:23.760 generated explicit videos and images that use real people's likenesses 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:27.400 without their consent. Celebrities were often the target of early 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:30.880 pornographic deep fakes. Now, according to one survey, one in 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:35.200 eighteen's personally knows someone who has been targeted. Nearly all 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:39.640 deep fake porn depicts women. Despite laws and moderation efforts, 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:43.680 pornographic deep fake websites and so called newdify apps continue 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:47.200 to multiply, and a recent analysis from Wired found that 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:51.360 Elon musks rock chatbot is still being used to generate 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:55.560 and host non consensual deep fakes. I am not surprised 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:59.240 in the least. Carrie Goldberg is a victim's rights attorney. 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:03.320 Her law firm specializes in fighting Internet abuse and revenge. Porn. 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:07.559 Journalist Lori Siegel recently released Searching for Mister Deep Fakes, 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:12.200 an investigative docuseries created for TikTok and partnership with Paris Hilton. 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:16.200 It follows an investigation to unmask the anonymous operator behind 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:20.080 one of the Internet's most notorious deep fake porn platforms. 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:24.760 VS Subramanian is a top computer scientist and deep fake expert. 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:27.880 He led the team that developed the Global online deep 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:32.399 fake Detection system a free platform to help journalists detect 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:35.320 deep fakes. I think it's critically important to talk about 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:38.120 this issue. When I started my career, pornography was at 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:41.000 this heart of the problems with the early Internet and 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:43.640 the uses of it and the abuse of it was 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:46.880 built into the system at the start. A lot of 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:48.560 people were aware of it then and have had a 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:51.280 very hard time dealing with it even as technology has 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:54.000 gotten better and better at being more and more abusive. 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:56.560 So it's critical that we keep talking about it, we 0:02:56.680 --> 0:03:00.880 criminalize this, and we start to hold platforms, big platforms 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:05.240 responsible for the stuff that they distribute. Our expert question 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:08.760 today comes from Wall Street Journal tech reporter Georgia Wells. 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:11.840 This is an important conversation and one we will keep having, 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:15.160 so stick around and one more thing before we get started. 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:18.000 If you're going to be in Washington, DC on July sixteenth, 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:21.560 please join us live at the Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.200 Center for a taping up on I'll be talking to 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:28.320 Gina Rimando, Commerce Secretary under President Biden and former Rhode 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:32.080 Island governor about what AI means for the American workforce, 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:35.160 and as a special bonus before that, conversation. I'll be 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:38.520 speaking with Johns Hopkins University President Ron Daniels and the 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:42.800 University of Notre Dame President Father Robert Dowd about how 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:46.760 universities are approaching AI and workforce issues. You can get 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:50.000 tickets and learn more at boxmedia dot com. Slash Kara 0:03:50.120 --> 0:04:04.000 Swisher Live, Carrie, Laurie and VS. Thanks for coming on on. 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:05.000 Could you be here? 0:04:05.320 --> 0:04:06.200 Thrilled to be here? 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:10.280 Hello, Hello, So. I talked to experts back in January 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.960 about the proliferation of sexualized non consensual AI deep fikes, 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:17.280 including images of children on Elon muss x that were 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:21.200 generated by its groc chatbot. Obviously, AI created deep fake 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:24.599 porn hasn't gone away on Groc or elsewhere, and the 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:27.400 technology continues to improve. And like each of you to 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:30.800 explain the current scope of the problem and how pervasive 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:35.280 it is and who it's affecting, and how technically advanced 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:37.200 it is. We're going to get more into detail, So 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:40.760 go high level here, Carrie, We'll start with you, than Laurie, 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:41.880 than VS. 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:42.320 So. 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:48.040 I'm a plaintiff's attorney that sues tech companies, and generally 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:52.479 I see problems at the very early stages. So you know, 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:55.960 back probably seven years ago, we started getting situations where 0:04:56.160 --> 0:05:00.760 celebrities and really high level content creators were deep faked. 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:04.919 And then over the last just i'd say year or so, 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:09.000 it started trickling down to middle schoolers getting deep faked. 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:12.840 But all the apps involved were these pretty obscure things. 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:17.719 But then everything totally changed when Elon started sending around, 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:20.599 you know, pictures of toasters in bikinis, and it just 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:25.880 unleashed this never before seen sort of situation where everyone 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:29.200 was able to create deep fakes and then immediately publish 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:31.640 them on the X platform. 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:33.320 So that's where you saw it, Laurie. 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:36.000 Yeah, when we started looking at this years ago, it 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:41.160 was very much focused on celebrities, oftentimes women in power politicians. 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:42.599 It seems like the first line of defense. 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:45.080 And I remember thinking at the time, oh, no, you know, 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:47.040 you might not care about these people. We should care 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:49.240 about these people. But what this means is this is 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:52.160 going to happen in our high schools, and unfortunately that's 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:55.599 what we're seeing happening. So I would just say it's rampant, 0:05:55.760 --> 0:06:00.359 and it's happening in our communities. It's happening to women, 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:03.800 to all sorts of folks, and unfortunately it's something that 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:06.640 teenagers are learning and it's becoming commonplace. 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:11.240 Go ahead, yes, Kara, I'm a technologist, and so I've 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:15.400 spent a lot more time thinking about the technology over 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:19.400 the last you know, five six years ago, the ability 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:23.760 to create deep fakes was in its infancy, but over 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:26.760 the last five years, and in particular over the last 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:29.640 year or two, it's really gotten to a stage where 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:33.240 even experts like me on the detection of deep fakes 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:38.160 have difficulty eyeballing something, listening to something, and telling if 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:40.520 it's real or fake. So what we're seeing is something 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:43.160 where you really need humans and AI to come together 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:47.200 to work as some kind of partnership to try and 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:50.640 figure this out. And you know, until we can get 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:52.920 that right, I don't see an end in sight. 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:56.640 And how has the technology improved in the last year 0:06:57.279 --> 0:06:58.120 Just ease of use. 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:02.000 Ease of use has always been there. The improvement has 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:05.360 been in the quality of the generator deep fakes. So today, 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:09.280 for example, we're seeing things like face swapping, so I 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:15.280 could record something of myself saying something thoroughly objectionable and 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:18.680 then put, you know, replace my face with that of 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:22.040 a celebrity in the past that was difficult to do. 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:24.840 There were things around the edges of the face that 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:28.320 would be noticeable. Today, much of that has been worked 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:28.800 out and. 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:31.400 Ease of use for normal people to do so correct. 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:32.960 Indeed, absolutely yeah. 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:36.320 So mister d Fakes launched in twenty eighteen and was 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:39.440 once again the largest deep fake porn site online, getting 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:43.000 seventeen million visits a month at its peak. Laurie, talk 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:46.240 about your investigation into mister deep Fakes and how it began. 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:49.040 I began a bit with an obsession, to be quite 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:52.680 honest with you. I remember it was twenty twenty two, 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:56.080 chatch Ept had launched. Everybody was talking about how AI 0:07:56.280 --> 0:07:58.160 was going to just do these incredible things. It's going 0:07:58.200 --> 0:08:01.320 to cure cancer, it's going to to you know, give 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:02.480 us all this free time. 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:04.520 And of course, I mean, car, you know this better 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:04.920 than anyone. 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:06.920 We're all kind of looking at this and saying, okay, 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:09.400 there are a lot of unintended consequences, and this is 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:13.320 moving very quickly without the correct guardrails. And someone told 0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:16.640 me about mister deep Fakes. I will never forget going 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:21.520 to this site and opening it up and seeing thousands, 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:26.600 thousands of highly sexually graphic images, deep fakes of women 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:29.480 who did not consent, and they were violent in nature. 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:33.080 It was a website where a creator could say, you know, 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:35.600 could go and make money, and someone could go and 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:38.439 say I want this woman doing this, and they could 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:38.920 pay for it. 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:41.119 So it was beyond just a website. It was a platform. 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:43.200 And then what was even more concerning as we were 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:46.400 digging into it was, you know, there was everything from 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:50.040 training data of women's faces to create hyper realistic deep 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:53.320 fake pornography, and then there were forums where people would 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:56.160 exchange notes on here's the latest deep fake tools, here's 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:58.720 how you can do this. You can pay a premium 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:01.720 and get a deep fake training manual. And so my 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:04.000 initial thought was this isn't going to just be for 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:06.520 these high profile women and high profile I would say, 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:08.760 let's take it with a grain of salt. And I 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:11.120 remember thinking at the time, well, it's not going to 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:13.760 stop here. You know, this is just the beginning of it. 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:15.760 And by the way, you're looking at these forums and 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:18.160 you're seeing people say, is it wrong that I want 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:20.360 to do this to my sister in law? And oh, 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:23.319 this is so easy to do, and so it's almost 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:27.320 creating entertainment around deep fake abuse. And so as I 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:30.080 was looking at this, I thought, well, surely there's something 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:33.920 these women can do to help themselves, and the reality 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:36.560 was absolutely not. There was nothing they could do because 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:39.559 the man behind it was anonymous, and he'd been anonymous 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:42.679 for six years. And even so, even if he wasn't anonymous, 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:45.400 the laws hadn't caught up. And even when I went 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:47.079 out and started talking about this, and by the way, 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:48.480 you never want to be the person talking about deep 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:50.520 fake porn at the dinner table, but turns out I was. 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:53.560 People were like, well, the images aren't real that and 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:57.200 so it doesn't matter, and I'm sure everybody on here 0:09:57.280 --> 0:09:59.200 is kind of just shaking their head. So we also 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:02.120 had a cultural problem. We needed people to realize that 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:03.920 these are so hyper realistic. 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:05.920 Actually this causes. 0:10:05.640 --> 0:10:08.520 Deep, deep psychological abuse, and it can be used to 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:11.840 try to digitally abuse a woman, I say, a woman anyone, 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:14.280 And so that was what was alarming, and so we 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:16.920 decided we had to go find him and raise awareness. 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:18.600 So that was the beginning of the investigation. 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:22.199 Let's hear from Joanne Chu. She's an artist and actor. 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:25.079 One of the women featured in Laurie's investigation. She's talking 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:27.600 about the moment when she realized her image had been 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:29.800 used in porn on mister deep Fakes. 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:33.040 I was just bored one evening and I'm just gonna 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:35.199 google Google my name and see what comes up. I 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:37.240 kept scrolling down, and then I said. 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:38.280 What what what? What? 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:38.520 What? 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:39.040 What is this? 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:45.439 It's like my face on very uh disturbing and graphic 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:51.760 graphic content. It's you know, Joanne cho or Joanne Cheo. 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:55.560 In the beginning, it was just a few listings mister 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:58.920 deep fakes came up social media girls e Porner, and 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:02.400 then when I typed it in against it multiplied. It's 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:06.560 very much akin to physical assault. I have like less 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:09.880 than three thousand followers, but it doesn't matter if you're 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:12.480 famous or you're not. Just looking at mister dee fakes. 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:15.720 It's like they have a whole alphabetized database. At one point, 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:18.920 when I typed in my name, my stuff wasn't coming 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:20.760 up first anymore. It was all of this content. 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:24.240 So she compares to being physically assaulted. Carrie, does this 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:26.680 reflect what you've heard from your clients, because it sounds 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:29.560 like perpetrators are telling themselves that it isn't real harm. 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:32.959 Yeah, I remember this when I first started my firm 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:36.520 back in twenty fourteen, and it was everyone's attitude about 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.640 revenge porn and how you know, this is just an 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:44.000 online problem. And back then there were all these revenge 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:47.839 porn websites and people were searchable through Google, which would 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:51.920 lead people to the search engine results and it would 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:55.640 just be pages and pages of nude images. Like all 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:58.880 the harm was really really underestimated back then, and it 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:04.280 took a huge, huge amount of advocacy to change the 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:07.880 public opinion about the shame around being you know, nude 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:11.840 online and we're just we're seeing something really really similar. 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:14.800 The difference though, is that back you know, ten years ago, 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:19.280 women were being blamed for having shared an intimate image 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:22.400 in the first place, and with deep fakes, I don't 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:25.880 see that same kind of victim blaming because here no 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:29.800 one consent it to the image in the first place. 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:33.920 But there is still a lot of I think marginalization 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:36.320 and minimizing of the harm. 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:38.559 That it's not physical assault, that it's. 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:43.360 Yeah, I feel it is conceptually different than a physical assault, 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:47.400 but that doesn't mean that it's not still really really 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:52.440 harmful and humiliating for victims, especially like I see so 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:57.240 many young people who are like victims, and it's other 0:12:57.400 --> 0:12:59.600 young people's doing it to them, you know, like where 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:03.160 it's on peer in junior high school and high school settings, 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:05.320 and a lot of times the offenders just think that 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:09.680 they're doing a prank or if you know, and always 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:12.440 the defense is, well, I barely shared it with anybody, 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:15.720 I didn't post it online. But these things find a 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:17.000 way to get published. 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:20.600 So deepig technology first to merge around twenty fifteen. VS 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:24.240 talk about the online communities that exist for sharing information 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:28.400 making so called newdified tools accessible and how has it 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:31.199 evolved over the past ten years in terms of how 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:32.079 it's used. 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:36.120 So Kara, there are a number of neutification AI tools. 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:40.640 So these are tools that are of various varieties. One, 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:44.400 as I mentioned earlier, is face swapping, where you've got 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:49.680 an individual who's nude performing some sex act and their 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:52.760 face has been replaced with the face of somebody like 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:55.760 miss Chew, who you alluded to a couple of minutes back. 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:59.880 So that's one class of techniques. Another is to use 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:07.240 massive databases of training data of existing nude individuals to 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:10.800 create and generate new nudes of people who are hyper 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:16.120 realistic who are performing acts which the real individual portrayed 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:19.600 never performed. So that's another class of techniques, and I 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:21.840 don't want to go into the gory details of how 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:24.640 that's done, but there are a number of techniques. These 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:28.480 techniques have evolved better and better every single year, and 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:32.320 so as a consequence, what we see is really a 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:36.760 huge number of websites that can disseminate such stuff, not 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:41.560 just the produced content, but also the tools that are 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:45.120 used to create and disseminate this stuff. And that's typically 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:48.479 done on the dark web through some kind of distribution 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:49.840 network on the dark web. 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:53.080 And what changed when Elon made it easy to do 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:55.120 so because for all eyes in the dark web, you 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.280 have to actually make an attempt to go get it right. 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:00.240 It's like go into a porn store or go going 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:02.560 to a porn movie or something back in the old days. 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:05.160 Talk a little bit about how that changed. 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:09.440 Well, I can't speak specifically to Elon and what he did, 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:12.840 but what I can say is that the more these 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:19.239 tools are available through normal channels, the more the audience 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:23.360 that gets access to them. And as soon as you 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:26.720 have a big audience, you have a bigger audience of 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:32.840 bad guys or as Carrie mentioned, just teenagers who don't 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:37.160 know better and haven't been taught better, possibly because their 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:41.280 teachers and their parents, however decent they may be, were 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:44.080 not aware of the threat, and by the time they 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:46.120 figured out it was too late. 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:48.720 Deep fakes and newifi apps are also a big problem 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:51.720 in schools. As we mentioned earlier, recent survey of roughly 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:54.040 five hundred and fifty US teens found that over half 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:57.320 had created at least one image using neuification tools, while 0:15:57.320 --> 0:16:00.120 a third of the teens reported having their image created 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:03.040 and shared non consentually. I'm sure the numbers are higher. Actually, 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:06.680 Sites like mister deep Figs and apps like groc as 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:09.880 we know to have normalized creating nons consensual in some 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:13.600 cases violent sexual imagery, often of women. Laurie talk about 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:15.480 the consequences for young people. 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:19.240 Yeah, you know, I'll start. I always like to say, 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:20.960 like to try to make it a little bit personal. 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:22.920 I'll never forget, and I'm going to take it here 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:25.240 and I promise I'll get to young folks, but I'll 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:27.520 never forget. I think it was twenty twenty three when 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:30.320 a group of technologists approached me and say, can we 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:32.360 can we have AI attack you and see what it 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:36.160 could find. And because I am a crazy person, I said, sure, 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:39.200 let's see. And what they did was they had AI 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:41.760 come up with an attack against me. And it took 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:45.000 some true things, right, like I've interviewed Mark Zuckerberg before, 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:46.720 or I'm a technology journalist. 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:49.560 And then it ended up in front of an audience. 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:52.600 It ended up creating the created sexually explicit deep fix 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:55.880 of me. And I'll never forget because this I had consented. 0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:57.320 I didn't realize they were going to do that, but 0:16:57.360 --> 0:16:59.880 I had consented to this demo, and I'll never forget 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.200 looking at the audience look at these sexually explicit deep 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:05.760 fakes of me, and I could, as a person who 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:08.760 generally formed sentences for a living, I stopped being able 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:09.600 to form sentences. 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:12.240 I felt shame, I felt humiliation. 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:14.840 I felt like the world had seen me naked, to 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:17.760 be quite honest with you, and then I thought to myself, well, 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:20.320 if that's how I feel, and I know what this 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:23.440 technology is, imagine what that's going to be like for 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:26.480 an eleven year old girl, you know. And I think 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:28.960 that's what we started hearing. So I've spoken to a 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:31.800 lot of parents, a lot of teenagers, who've had this 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:34.520 happen to them. I spoke to one woman who said, 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:37.000 and you know, she's in her early twenties. She said 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:39.159 she after this was happening, and she went out and 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:41.040 she tried to get this stopped, and people said, there's 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:43.520 nothing you can do. They blamed her, very similar to 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:45.840 what Carrie is talking about. Back when we were talking 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:49.159 about non consensual pornography, people didn't quite understand it. She 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:51.560 told me she walked to the roof of her building 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:54.399 and she considered jumping off. And you talk to a 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:57.760 politician who describes this as digital rape. And so for me, 0:17:57.880 --> 0:17:59.879 it was really confusing because I was looking at this 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:04.080 website that for me, this website represented this dystopian era 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:07.320 where we lose consent, in an ai era where you know, 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:10.359 our most intimate qualities can be weaponized against us. And 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:13.359 then externally we were hearing but it's not real. It 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:17.720 doesn't matter when it really impacts the way a young person, 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:20.560 any person walks through the world. We spoke to a 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:23.479 woman named Mollie who was a mother who had this 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:27.639 her her husband's best friend. Deep faked the whole neighborhood, 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:32.120 eighty women and the community and created it's sexually explicit 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.080 deep fakes, and she said it impacted how she would 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:37.280 go on the bus and look at people and wonder 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:39.679 if they'd seen this, and she had to go on 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:42.320 a she said, a porn hunt for her own face 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:45.960 on the web. And I think it really impacts from 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:48.320 a human perspective, how you walk through the world and 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:49.120 how you hold. 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:51.520 Yourself, and it can have reputational harm. 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:54.720 Right, So, Carrie, your law firm in your or ensues 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:58.800 quote psychos pervs, trolls and toxic tech. In January, you're 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:01.399 from file the lawsuit against say On behalf of Ashley 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:04.639 Saint Clair, a conservative influencer who had a child with 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:07.400 Elon Musk. She alleges that his company's Chapbot was used 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:11.240 to create and disseminate sexually explicit, non consensual images of her. 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:14.479 Talk about the lawsuit and how is it representative of 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:16.960 bigger legal issues around deep big porn. 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:21.399 When Grock suddenly had this new capability of being able 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:26.600 to create neutification images, this was the first time in 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:31.520 history that a newdifying tool was integrated into a widely 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:36.000 used social media platform, which combined the ability to just 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:42.400 generate an image with the widespread dissemination network, and so 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:46.160 an image could just be viewable by millions and millions 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:49.600 of people. But also, I mean, you know, x's for 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:53.159 people thirteen and up, and so children were also then 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:58.040 consumers of the images, which is illegal. And we're also 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:01.119 there were children that were the victims of it. And 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:04.800 the images posted were not just people in bikinis, but 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:09.159 GROC would pose them in sexual positions. It would respond 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:12.879 to prompts telling them to drench their body and blood 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:17.920 and seamen like fluids, whold suggestive props, and just really 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:22.760 vulgar and explicit images, and it seemed very clear that 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:28.120 this was an intended rollout a product that was known 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:30.960 to be harmful. They were like something like one point 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:34.800 eight million posts of women and children being deep faked, 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:37.879 which accounted for like forty one percent of all the 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:42.480 images posted during this nine day period. So Ashley Saint 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:46.520 Clair is somebody who is really demonized on the X 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:49.440 platform because of some of the hostile things that Elon 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:52.119 Musk has said about her, was a huge target of 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:54.400 the deep fakes, and there were just so many images 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:59.720 that GROC generated and published on her own page, and 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:03.159 so we sued them. We first got you attempted to 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:07.640 get a temporary restraining order to stop Grock from deepfaking her, 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:11.600 and then we sued them for defective design and other 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:15.879 sort of product liability types of lawsuits, negligence, and the 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:17.920 claim that I like the best is that we sue 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:19.360 them for public nuisance. 0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:22.359 There's just no reasonable. 0:21:21.920 --> 0:21:26.080 Safe use of this product but to harass people publicly. 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:27.760 So that's where it stands now. 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:33.000 And yeah, well, we had to give XAI statutory notice 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:37.159 that we were filing for a temporary restraining order, and 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:42.280 they immediately sued Ashley in Texas, claiming that she had 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:46.560 breached the XAI terms of service by even threatening to 0:21:46.600 --> 0:21:49.280 sue them in her home state of New York. So 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:53.120 now we are litigating the issue in two different venues. 0:21:53.440 --> 0:21:57.280 They're also trying to use the x terms of service 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:01.800 to get the XAI case transfer to New York, and 0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:05.440