1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by uncontrollable Flagelence, 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: instead is supported by the generous contributions of people like you, 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: our listeners on Patreon. Visit patreon dot com slash thinking 4 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: sideways to learn more Thinking Sideways. I don't know stories 5 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: of things we simply don't know the answer too. Hey there, 6 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:38,239 Speaker 1: and welcome again to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I 7 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: am Steve as always, joined by and Wolf Wolf. Yeah, 8 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 1: that's my new name, turning a new I want to 9 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,599 Speaker 1: suthing a little more macho a wolf, so you can 10 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: all call me Wolf, all right, Wolf, Okay, we'll go 11 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: with that. Okay, So it's it's Steve Devon and the 12 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: old Wolf. No bark bark another that. Well, hey everybody, 13 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: this week, as always, we have a mystery. This mystery 14 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 1: was a listeners suggestion. It was suggested by Meredith, So 15 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: thank you Meredith. I know she said this one in 16 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: a while back. I'm gonna say Meredith was the first 17 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: of many. Oh yeah, we probably just didn't record the 18 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: rest the first come, first served kind of thing. But 19 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: what we're going to talk about this week is the 20 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 1: Lost Dutchman's Mind. The Lost Dutchman's mind. Crap, I misread it. 21 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: I thought it was the Lost Dutch Boy paid store franchise. 22 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: Sounds so similar. Yeah, well, that's actually a legitimate mystery. 23 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: They built this franchise and they wrote the address down 24 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: a piece of paper, and then somebody lost it the 25 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: piece of paper that is. Oh I thought they lost 26 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: a little boy. No, no, that's another mystery. Yeah, so 27 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: we just proved that one. Alright, Well, let's let's focus 28 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: on this, okay. So before we get started with the mystery, 29 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: I do want to say that there's several lost Dutchman's 30 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: minds across the US. So we are specifically talking about 31 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: the one that is believed to be in the Superstition 32 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: Mountains in Arizona. That's it is the big one, but 33 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 1: there are others, so I just want to make sure 34 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: a brief overview before we get into most of it 35 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: is the legend of the Lost Dutchman's Mind, which says 36 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: that there is a gold mine with an amazingly pure 37 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: vein of gold and it was found either by the 38 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: Apaches at some unknown time in history, by the Spanish 39 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: in the fifteen hundreds, or a German immigrant in the 40 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds. The mine is believed to be located somewhere 41 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: in the Superstition Mountains, and it's believed to be in 42 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 1: the vicinity of there's a peak called Weaver's Needle, and 43 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: that's where everybody thinks it's at. And supposedly the mine 44 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: is lost. But the funny thing is is that it 45 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: wasn't lost before gold was pulled out of it and 46 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: brought back to civilization, possibly along with a map, maybe not. 47 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: I don't know stories very and that's something i'll preface 48 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: this with. There are multiple versions of the story. That's 49 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 1: what makes it so fun it is. It's kind of 50 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: boring if you just say, I know there was a mind, 51 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: but we don't really know where it is anymore. Yeah, Yeah, 52 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: an episode over done. No, that's the way it's gonna go. Right. So, 53 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: since the story came out in whichever time frame it 54 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: is that it came out, whether it was with the 55 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: Spanish or with the German minor in the eighteen hundreds, 56 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: people have since been going out into the desert searching 57 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: for the mind. If they're lucky, they just lose their fortunes. 58 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: If they're not so lucky, they're losing their lives. Happens 59 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: it does. And part of the reason for that is 60 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: because people go looking for it and they aren't exactly 61 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: seasoned prospectors. They didn't know what they were doing, and 62 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: they weren't prepared. And so you add that in with 63 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: the weather and the country side, and it's a recipe 64 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: for disaster, especially if you go out by yourself, which 65 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: some people, which is a lot of people seem to 66 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: have died and anything. You go out in the wilderness 67 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: by yourself, by the way, you know, you're taking a 68 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,839 Speaker 1: big chance, a bad idea. Yeah, it is. So let's 69 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: give a little bit of geographic info here, just what 70 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 1: people know where we're talking about. Superstition Mountains themselves are 71 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: roughly fifty miles or eighty kilometers east of Phoenix, Arizona. 72 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: The temperatures in the area swing. This is in the summers. 73 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 1: They swing from a low of eighty degrees to a 74 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: high of a hundred and six degrees and that is 75 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: the average in that time frame. Yeah, in the winter, 76 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: it's like also super weird. It's super cold because it's 77 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: high plains, right, yeah, and it's it's it's desert, and 78 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: deserts aren't known for being warm in the winter. Actually, 79 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: even in the summertime, the desert gets pretty damn cold 80 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 1: at night. Actually, I would saying, are you talking eighty 81 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: degrees at night? I'm sure I would take it to 82 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: get a lot lower than that it can. But this is, 83 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: you know, I'm this is this is the highs. So 84 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: this is a big peak July August. You know, then 85 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 1: there's not so much a temperate swing at that part. Okay, 86 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 1: So these are highs. Okay. So the other reason, you know, 87 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: as we said, it's a desert, it only gets a 88 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: couple I think, what is it, eight inches of rain 89 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 1: a year, So it's not as if you're just gonna 90 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: find pools of water laying around your canteen up with 91 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 1: none of that. So the whole place is it's rock, 92 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: it's scrub, it's valleys and bluffs, and it's just not 93 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: the place that anybody should be going wandering into unprepared 94 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: and most definitely not on their own. I recommend you 95 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 1: get a guide if you're gonna go, like five, do 96 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: they have rattlers up there, the ones that little babies 97 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: have or the snake? Yeah they do, they have. They 98 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: have snakes and probably some other creepy crawleys kind of 99 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: like Australia, not as bad as Australia, and Australia everything 100 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: wants to kill you. Arizona is the Australia of America. 101 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: Let's be probably. I don't know about that, but I'm 102 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: sure there's some other places that will take Umbridge at that. 103 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: So I'll let them email us. You're the most poisonous 104 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: state in America. We want to hear from you New Jersey. Wait, 105 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: that's around kind of poison. Okay. So there's there's a 106 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: misnomer in our story that I want to clear up 107 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: real quick also before we get into it, and that 108 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: is the name of the mind. We here in the 109 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: US were super culturally sensitive, especially in the eighteen hundreds, 110 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: and so that's where this comes from. Is the mine 111 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: was found by a man who was called the Dutchman, 112 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: but he wasn't Dutch. He was Chairman. So Deutsch. Being 113 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: as like I said, sensitive, it was we are Deutsch 114 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: Dutch potato potato, they're the same thing. So that's why 115 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: it's called that. So, as I said before, there are 116 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 1: multiple versions of this story, and there are multiple variants 117 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: of each version. So what I've decided to do here 118 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: is kind of what I've done in the past. I've 119 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: packed each one up into as much of a stories 120 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: I can without yep, without going veering down every little 121 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: side alley here. So if you're familiar with the story 122 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: and this doesn't made up exactly with what you've heard, 123 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 1: well that's because it's a variant initially the story. So 124 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: this is the earliest version of the story of the 125 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: Lost Dutchman's mind. It comes from the Apaches, the Indians, 126 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: American Indians who lived in the area, and they of 127 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: course were there before Spanish or Europeans showed up. The 128 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: story that they tell is about a sacred cave that 129 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: houses the spirits that protect the mountain. The entrance to 130 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: the cave, according to their legend, is protected by a 131 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: pair of rattle snakes, one is male and one is female. 132 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: Between those snakes are two cops, and I believe it's 133 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: shell cups if I remember right. To enter the cave, though, 134 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: you need to walk up to the cups and have 135 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: a bluestone and a white stone and you need to 136 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: put those into the cups. The or in some other 137 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: versions they're blue and a white feather. But you're gonna 138 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: put him into the cups. It is going to be 139 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: that the female will get the white stone and the 140 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: male will get the bluestone, and when you do that, 141 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: that will prompt the snakes to leave the entrance of 142 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: the cave and you can enter it. What's really interesting 143 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: is when I was listening to when I was reading this, 144 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: and then I watched UM in Search of the old 145 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: Leonard Nimoy show, which was a lot of fun. I 146 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:42,599 Speaker 1: didn't realize he hosted that show for it just completely 147 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 1: evaporated from my head. But the guy was telling the story, 148 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: and then I was like, Okay, so this is just 149 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: kind of it is allegory. Is at the right word 150 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: to say? Yeah, I think it's allegory. Okay. So I 151 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: was saying, Oh, it's just an allegory whatever whatever story 152 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: with a hidden right, And then I started reading on 153 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: some boards about this, and people are saying that they 154 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: were interpreting this to mean that the entrance of the 155 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:14,559 Speaker 1: cave was protected or covered by two actual rattlesnake stone statues, 156 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: and that the stone, the blue and the white stone 157 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: would act as a key to open it, which doesn't 158 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: mate up at all with what we know of what 159 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: the tribes of the American Indians did, but it was 160 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: an interesting idea to me. No, absolutely sure. This wasn't 161 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:40,239 Speaker 1: on web slues. This was on some miners board statues 162 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 1: that are closed Indiana jones Es. Yeah, and then you 163 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: put the stones in and give them a twist and 164 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,839 Speaker 1: they slide apart. You got it. That's I think that's 165 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: a little bit beyond a patch of technology to tell 166 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: you the truth. Well, maybe it was alien technology. I 167 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: love the idea. Yes, it's pretty cool. It was pretty interesting. Again, 168 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: I don't I agree. I don't think it's right, but cool, Yeah, 169 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: I think. Yeah, alright, well let me finish up just 170 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: with this bit of story, then we'll keep going. I 171 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:07,199 Speaker 1: know you don't think that's right, and that's fine. I 172 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: just thought it was fun good. I got the feeling 173 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: from what I read and listened to about the story 174 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: from the Apache that the cave is not so much 175 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: you know, this this gold filled thing, but instead was 176 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: a place to go to commune with the spirits of 177 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,319 Speaker 1: the Suspicions Mountains. Um, you know, I think it was 178 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:31,959 Speaker 1: a thunder god. I heard it referred to and referred 179 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: to in one place, so I don't know, but it 180 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: seems like it's more of a spiritual place for them, 181 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: not a gold thing. That would make sense. I mean, 182 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: it's my understanding that historically Native American people's have had 183 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 1: more of like a reverence for the space that they're 184 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: in than the sort of wow, that's gold. Um, let's 185 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: take it. They didn't really. Yeah, I'm sure they would 186 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: have loved to have had the gold if they had 187 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: been valuable in their economy, but it really wasn't wasn't. Yeah, 188 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: And it would makes sense that you might look at 189 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: that and think, yeah, that's a special place that I'm 190 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: going to talk to somebody important in. But the value 191 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: is not what's in the walls. The value was in 192 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: the space itself released on your system. Yeah, yeah, okay, 193 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: well let's go on from here. We have our next Actually, 194 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: we have two versions of this story that revolve around 195 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:27,079 Speaker 1: the Spanish. According yeah, of course, according to this version 196 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 1: of the story, about fifteen forty, a Spanish conquistador named 197 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: Francisco of Vasquez de Coronado, he came to the area 198 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: and he was looking for the seven Golden Cities of Cibola, 199 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: and they the Spanish, met the Apache and they told 200 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: him about the Suspicion Mountains and he immediately interpreted their 201 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: stories to mean that one of the golden cities of 202 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: Cibola was there, and he is his men immediately went 203 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: to search the area. They obviously they never found it, 204 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: but while they were in the area, they kept mysteriously 205 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:07,959 Speaker 1: losing men. And that's the way you'll see it described 206 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: as men would just evaporator disappear. And I don't know 207 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: if really they were deserting or if they're falling off cliffs. 208 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: I have no idea, although as always possible, the apaches 209 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,839 Speaker 1: were kidnapping him in murdering him, Yeah, that's absolutely possible. 210 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 1: Um So, so I don't know. That's where the Spanish 211 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: the actual fifteen forty version of the story ends, and 212 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: it disappears from there, but it's dovetails quite nicely in 213 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: with the second part of our story. Here, the last 214 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: telling of the story, which is probably the most fleshed 215 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,959 Speaker 1: out because I think it's the most popular, pushing us 216 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: into the eighteen forties, there's a man named Don Miguel Peralta, 217 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: and he's the member of a prominent family, and he 218 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 1: goes out looking for the gold that de Coronado couldn't 219 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: find in the years earlier. He By the way, remember 220 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 1: that name, Well, I watched the wire, so yeah, not 221 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: not not that uh. In this story, his name is 222 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: peppered all over the place. So the story goes that 223 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 1: Don Miguel Perelta went out searching for the gold in 224 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: the Suspicion Mountains and he indeed founded and he returned 225 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: to the site that he had found the gold with 226 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: a whole host of workers and began to mine it. 227 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,119 Speaker 1: Being that he was digging in sacred territory, the apache 228 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: were none too keen with that, and he figured, well, 229 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: it's probably time to pack up and get out of here. 230 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 1: But being unwilling to just leave his gold mine open 231 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: for any old schmode to just walk in and start working, 232 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 1: he somehow covers the entrance of the mine. And I 233 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 1: don't know how he does that, Probably a pretty good way, yeah, 234 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: but it makes it hard to go back can start working. 235 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: That's that's why I don't know how he did it. 236 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: But that doesn't really pay too much into this, because 237 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 1: what happens is that he loads his pack animals with 238 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: gold and his equipment and his men and then they 239 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: take they go to leave. But he probably shouldn't have 240 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: spent so much time oh, I don't know, packing up 241 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: his stuff and blowing up the entrance to the mind 242 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: because the Apache show up and they kill every last man. 243 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: The pack animals, however, are not killed, and they are 244 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: loaded with gold and they run away, and supposedly, for 245 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: about fifty to eighty years, people wandering in the area 246 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: would find the corpses of these pack animals with statchells 247 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: of gold attached to them, so they were they were 248 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: above find. Yeah, I my my one issue with it 249 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: is that I don't exactly know how anybody knows that 250 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: that's what the what happened to him and the men, 251 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: because yeah, they had to be survived. Or there's other 252 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: people who said they found a whole host of corpses 253 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: several miles out away from Weaver's Needle, so that must 254 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: have been the indication that the Apaches. I as, I 255 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: don't know why you have such a problem with this, 256 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: because what we're saying is a group of Apache Indians 257 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: came and killed a bunch of dudes who were messing 258 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: with their sacred site and survived that attack and left. 259 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: And I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that they 260 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: might have bragged to some people about it. And that's 261 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: how we got this story, was that they said, yeah, 262 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: that guy that was digging in there, we killed them all, 263 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: because that's what happens to people. So you're saying the Apache, 264 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: we're spreading the story that they had. Okay, Okay, I 265 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 1: just making sure I understand who when you said that guy. Yes. 266 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: So for me, it's like, there are a bunch of 267 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: there are a bunch of people who left that scene alive. 268 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: And it wouldn't be so crazy to me to say, 269 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: especially if they were trying to disencourage what's the discourage, 270 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: thank you discourage people from going out there and searching 271 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: for it anymore? They would say, yeah, you don't happened 272 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: to Laska who did that? We killed him at all 273 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: of his men, We killed them all. And there is 274 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: an addition to this story which I initially hadn't included, 275 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: which is that they're supposedly so there was a doctor 276 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: who was friendly to the APACHE and helped them, and 277 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: so what they did one day was they said, we're 278 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: going to pay you back, and we know what, old 279 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: viable valuable can't say the word valuable all of a sudden, 280 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: but they blindfold him, put him on a horse, take 281 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: him somewhere and he picks up as much gold as 282 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: he can off the ground from there. So I don't know, 283 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: maybe maybe you're right, maybe there is that's that's how 284 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: we spread from there. I don't know. I'm always just 285 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: always questioned when it's and every man was killed, you 286 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: know the story. Yeah, but again it's like not literally 287 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: not everyone was killed, right, just just all of the 288 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: workers who were digging the minds were killed. There were 289 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: a bunch of people who did the killing. And actually 290 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: the workers are probably slated to get killed any because 291 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: they knew the where the mind was possible. Yeah. Oh, 292 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: and by the way, that's the one thing I was 293 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: going to say, is that story about the guys who 294 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: were found away from Weaver's Needle that people said must 295 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 1: have been the killing ground. That's that's actually it's called 296 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 1: Master Grounds. It's actually a known site, so you can 297 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: find it on the map. And I was all over 298 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: Google Earth looking at this stuff. No, no, I gotta 299 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: be honest with you. On Google Earth. This whole place 300 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: is really not that fun to look at. It's brown, 301 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 1: a little bit of scrubby green and valleys and ravines, 302 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: but it's a known site as in a known place 303 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: where there was known historical site where bodies were found, Yes, 304 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: where bodies were found. Not, there's there's verse. There's accounts 305 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: that say that some gold was collected at that site, 306 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 1: but I I didn't dig too deep in if that 307 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: was historically true or not. You know, this was one 308 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: of those things. It's just it's in that that slide 309 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 1: of so many bits of the story that you can 310 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 1: only run down so many. Okay, so lastly, let's move 311 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: on to our most popular version of the story, which 312 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 1: is the Dutchman himself. Yeah, so our friend the Dutchman 313 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 1: was an actual guy. We've historically know who he is. 314 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: His name was I'm gonna say it's Jacob Waltz, but 315 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: it could be Yakub. I'm not sure which it's gonna be, 316 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: but I'm just gonna refer to him as Waltz because 317 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: that's safe. He was born in Germany in the early 318 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds. He came to the America's or came to 319 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: the US in eighty five, and he made his way 320 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: in kind of this zig zaggy route south from New York. 321 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: He went through North Carolina and then he you know, 322 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: came across towards Texas, always chasing gold. He was always 323 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 1: looking for the next place, because you gotta remember, there 324 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 1: was a lot of boom towns at this this time 325 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,919 Speaker 1: in history, and people were mining things all over and 326 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: they died out pretty quickly, they did. They would die 327 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 1: out super fast. So he was chasing that all the time. 328 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: And he eventually ended up in Arizona around Phoenix, and 329 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: he ended up living out his years in that area. 330 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: He was working his own minds there. And I don't 331 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: we all have that that mountain man minor idea in 332 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 1: your head, where the guy's up in the hills in 333 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 1: a hole in the hills, and then he comes out 334 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: once in a great while to go to town and 335 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 1: get his supplies, and that's all you ever see them. 336 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: And while it's true that he would spend time at 337 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: his own minds, he couldn't make a living doing that 338 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 1: because he never had a really any kind of profitable claims. 339 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: So he would go do work for other people. He 340 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 1: would work in town. I mean, it was not uncommon 341 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 1: to to do that. A lot of these prospectors had 342 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 1: to do that to be able to feed themselves. There 343 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 1: wasn't actually, you know, all that many rich vines to 344 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 1: be had at the things aren't just still did his 345 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: day aren't very common. I think of it like a 346 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: deadwood sort of situation. Do you guys ever watch? Yeah, 347 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: and how the prospectors were more for higher than anything 348 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,679 Speaker 1: else and would be you would go work for the 349 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: rich people who came into town thinking that their claimed 350 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 1: that they had just bought was going to be worth 351 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,439 Speaker 1: a lot of money. And you know, that's kind of 352 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: what I picture prospecting really like, not you know, down 353 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: in the mind pulling gold out. I don't know pretty much. Well, 354 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 1: there you go two ways to look at it. But yeah, 355 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: that's exactly right. They didn't do it full time. So 356 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: we we reach a little bit of a split in 357 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:34,160 Speaker 1: our story here with Mr Waltz. From here, there are 358 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 1: variants of the story that he um so he met 359 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: a fellow German by the name of Jacob Wiser who 360 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 1: had been in the area as well. And there's some 361 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 1: version of the story, like I said, though, that have him. 362 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,240 Speaker 1: There's versions that don't. So we're just going to kind 363 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: of run on. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't exist. 364 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: But they showed up in the Phoenix area in seventy 365 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: and suddenly had a bunch of gold and drank on 366 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: it for days before they packed up and headed back 367 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 1: out into the mountains. And according to the legend the story, 368 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: Wiser did this for twenty years. He would show up 369 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: with gold and you know, live high on the hog 370 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: for a while, and then he'd head back out in 371 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,439 Speaker 1: the hills. And there are variations that say how he 372 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: found the gold. So this is some of the difficulty 373 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: with the story. Some people say that, uh, he accidentally 374 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: stumbled onto one of those piles of gold that was 375 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: attached to a dead pack animal. That would be reasonable 376 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: and easy. There are others that say that he or 377 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: he and his heat and or his partner killed two 378 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: Mexican miners who they took to be apache and then 379 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: after they had killed and realized they were mining the area, 380 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: and then realized they had a valuable mind. Or there 381 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 1: are the versions that say that these two were given 382 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: a map by a Mexican don whose life they saved. 383 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 1: And let's flesh that out just a little bit. The 384 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 1: Mexican don, because it it turns out it was a 385 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: man who was Don Miguel Peralta, Peralta that guy again again, 386 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 1: and he was according to this he's a descendant of 387 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 1: the man who had found the mind the first time, 388 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 1: and the Dutchman saved him from certain death in a 389 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: knife fight, certain death, and as a reward he let 390 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: him look at a map he had of the mind, 391 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: and then eventually he took him and if his partner 392 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 1: Wiser existed out there, and supposedly they started working it, 393 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: and eventually he was bought out. And then after a 394 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 1: while suddenly the partner stop stopped showing up, and people 395 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: can't decide if he just died of natural causes, if 396 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: the Apache killed him, or if Wise killed him, Waltz Wise, 397 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: I don't know who very similar or if Waltz had 398 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 1: killed him. So he kind of disappears at that point, 399 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: Walts himself dies, but not before he meets a woman 400 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 1: named Juliet Thomas. And it's really funny when you read 401 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: the accountings of her. I've heard that she was a 402 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 1: rather young woman. I have heard that she was a 403 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: rather old widow. Uh. You know, it goes back and 404 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: forth what she did. But apparently he befriended her and 405 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,919 Speaker 1: maybe they had some kind of romantic relationship, and he 406 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: kept dropping hints about where his mind was and telling 407 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 1: her that he would take her to it to see 408 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 1: it in the spring. Unfortunately, he died in I believe 409 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 1: it was October. It was October of Julia Thomas, perhaps 410 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 1: a very young beautiful girl who had found a guy 411 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 1: who was promising an older guy who was promising her 412 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff. Possibly she is possibly that she 413 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: could also be a woman of you know, mature woman, 414 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 1: so not a twenty year old girl, but at forty 415 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: or fifty, because she's always described as a widow, So 416 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 1: she could have been the widow of a minor at 417 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: of a man at twenty, or she could be the 418 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: widow of a man in her fifty You'd never know that, 419 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,879 Speaker 1: and her age is never specified anywhere. When they collected 420 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: his body to take it away, they found underneath his 421 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: bed a sack of gold, was very pure gold in it. 422 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: So everybody is excited to say that he got it 423 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: from the lost Dutchman's mind, and you know, we've we've 424 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: got to go get that. And then of course since 425 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 1: then people have been going out into the hills and 426 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: digging holes like their gophers and just riddling the area 427 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: with with pock marks. So that's kind of where our 428 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: story ends. There is one thing about this that I 429 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 1: feel like I'd be remiss if I didn't talk about, 430 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: and that is the Peralta stones. Course, again, the Peraltas 431 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 1: pop up in our story. In the early nineteen fifties. 432 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 1: Three stones, I guess technically four stones, three rectangular stones, 433 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: were discovered in Apache Junction, Arizona, and along with them, 434 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,439 Speaker 1: there was a heart shaped stone that was found. The 435 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: rectangular stones are made of sandstone, and they're called the 436 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: Peralta stones, and then the heart stone is called the 437 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: Latin heart. And we're talking things that had been made 438 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: to be that shaped by men, right. They are man made, yes, 439 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 1: so somebody did carve them somehow, right, and they're like 440 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: bricks about what eight by fourteen inches something like that. 441 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: I think they're I thought they were more candle to 442 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,120 Speaker 1: like eleven by seventeen, but somewhere in that range. Yeah. 443 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I've always seen pictures of them, but I 444 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: never got good dimensions for scale, no banana for scale. 445 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,199 Speaker 1: So on one face, so one of the stones is 446 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 1: carved on both sides and on one face of that 447 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: that's referred to as the pre map, and it shows 448 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: an etching of a person wearing a pointed hat standing 449 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: on a rectangle which I believe is supposed to be 450 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 1: a block, and it's got eighty seven etched into that block, 451 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: and they're swinging across the shape of a cross down 452 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: and underneath that there's a rectangle with a cross in 453 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 1: it and a heart, almost like they're falling away from 454 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: the cross. Then to the right of that there are 455 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 1: several lines of text in Spanish. On the opposite side 456 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: of the stone is what is called the horse map, 457 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 1: and that also has more Spanish on it, along with 458 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: the engraving of not surprisingly all horse. And then there's 459 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: some squiggly lines and some numbers on it. To take 460 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 1: the other two stones, which these stones get stacked on 461 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,719 Speaker 1: top of one another, so there appears to only be 462 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: carved on one face of each, and they have on 463 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: their face again this is a series of squiggly line 464 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: and some numbers, and there is in one of them 465 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: a depression that has been carved in that is in 466 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 1: the shape of a heart. And by the way, when 467 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:10,479 Speaker 1: I say the shape of a heart, I mean, you know, 468 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: like the the Europpean Valentine heart shape exactly, that's exactly it. 469 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 1: The lines that are on the stone run up to 470 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: the edge of the heart, the part of it that's 471 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,719 Speaker 1: carved out, and if you take the Latin heart and 472 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: put it into the spot they made up perfectly, and 473 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: those lines continue across the Latin heart. So people interpret 474 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: this to mean that these stones are a map, that 475 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 1: they are reflective of certain geographic features in the area, 476 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 1: and so they're trying you see people always trying to 477 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: make these up to different maps, which depending on how 478 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,160 Speaker 1: you zoom in or out, you can put it into 479 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: a thousand places. So one of them definitely looks to 480 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: me to have maybe some like constellation drawings on it 481 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: maybe or something like that as well, so you're probably 482 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 1: referring to it. It looks like a series of dots 483 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 1: with lines connecting it. No, that's that's what I wouldn't 484 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 1: interpret as a trail a cath right. But then there's 485 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: the squiggly like one that looks kind of like a 486 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 1: W and one that looks maybe like you're interpreting them 487 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,879 Speaker 1: is constellations. I got it, okay, or I mean mountains, 488 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 1: because one of them definitely looks like mountains. And then 489 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: there's a bunch of the sky that looked like constellations 490 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,679 Speaker 1: to me. I don't know. It's totally up to interpretation. 491 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: Those it absolutely is. I mean everybody, okay, not everything. 492 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: A lot of people are convinced that it is a 493 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: bath that's meant to lead you to the lost Dutchman's mind. 494 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: I find it strange that it showed up in the 495 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, But hey, what do I know? Oh? Wait, um, 496 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: I I do know something, because it turns out that 497 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 1: most of the authorities on engraving from the eighteen hundreds 498 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: and stoneworking have looked at these things and said they're 499 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: fakes because the faces of the stone owns where they're 500 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: the etching is. They're they're rather smooth, and to have 501 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: done that at the in period in the eighteen hundreds, 502 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 1: you have to rub two stones together for quite a 503 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: while with moist with water between them to wear them down. 504 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: Doesn't appear to be that way. The lines in the 505 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 1: shapes that are cut into them appear to have been 506 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: cut with a modern power tool, and then somebody took 507 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: some other implement to them to try to rough them 508 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: up and make it look real antiquing. Yeah, that's exactly it, 509 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: but they don't. For for a lot of of experts 510 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: from that kind of work that they don't pass must 511 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: also don't I mean, they don't look for as old 512 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: as they're supposed to be. Those fine lines have held 513 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: up remarkably well in the arid wasteland of the desert. 514 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 1: So you know, the other problems are, oh, tell me 515 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: all of them. Okay. So the Valentine's Heart that it's 516 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: kind of it's a European thing that didn't show up 517 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: in Latin cultures until the twentieth century, so couldn't be 518 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: in era. And the Spanish is poorly assembled sentences that 519 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: are also using modern words and phrases, So there's a 520 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: lot of things that call this out as not being 521 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: truly period. Yeah, I and yeah, the maps, supposedly it's 522 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: on him, it's just kind of like crude and meanless. 523 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: That's yeah, it's hard to say. I've actually watched previews. 524 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: There's a TV show, apparently reality show of a bunch 525 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: of guys hiking around in that area using a map 526 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: similar to this to try to locate the mind, and 527 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: it is just so funny to watch them do it 528 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: and overlay it on this and overlay it on that, 529 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: Like you can put that on whatever you want if 530 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: you zoom in and out, you'll eventually make it fit 531 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: something something. So yeah, theory time. Yeah, shall we go 532 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: down the rabbit hole here and we'll we'll start off 533 00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: let's start off with the whole thing is a fake, 534 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: because that's one of this the two very basic theories here. Yeah, 535 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: so let's start off with is fake. Not long before 536 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: Waltz showed up in Phoenix in eighteen seventy or so 537 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: with all of that gold that he was spending around town. 538 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: Remember I said that he had been working other claims 539 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: and things like that to make ends meet. Well, it 540 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: turns out that he had been working at a mind 541 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: known as Vulture Mind, which was actually a super productive mind. 542 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: It ran from eighteen sixty three to nineteen forty two, 543 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: so years. Yeah, Well, he was fired apparently for stealing. 544 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: So it is very possible that he simply stole some 545 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: going from Vulture the folder mind, went out in the 546 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: superstitions and then came in and said he had totally 547 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: found it. So that is totally a plausible thing. Money, 548 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: it's a good way to under your money. It's also 549 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: a really good way to build trust to open a 550 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 1: line of credit. Say, if you come rolling into town, 551 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: with a bunch of really pure gold and you spend 552 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: it all. But you've said that from that one, that thing, 553 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 1: you know it's out there, there's a mine out there. 554 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: It's super productive. You've seen it. I'm going to go 555 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: out in a couple of days. I just need, you know, 556 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: a couple more drinks, one more night in the hotel, 557 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: and then I'm good. I mean, I know that's not 558 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: attached to the story necessarily, but yeah, I know that 559 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: that stuff did happen, and maybe he did it several times, 560 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: came back several times, and that's how he built up 561 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: that kind of trust me. Yeah, it could be. I 562 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: don't know, he could have hit a bunch of Actually, 563 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: in those days, you probably didn't want to walk around 564 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: with your entire fortune for disaster. Yeah. These days even too. Yeah, 565 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: but you know, stealing a bunch, getting fired for that, 566 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: and then needing to build up a name for yourself 567 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 1: somewhere else. It's not unreasonable to think this is a 568 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: good way to curry trust from people. They'll think that 569 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: I have a lot of money, they think I have 570 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: a productive claim, and then when I run out of 571 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 1: this money, they'll trust me. Yeah, I do what I 572 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,719 Speaker 1: gotta do, and maybe he intended town but he had 573 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: enough stretched it out. I don't know. Let's go and 574 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: quickly talk about his dear lady friend, Julia Thomas. Julia 575 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: took care of him and his last his later years, right, 576 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 1: according to versions of the story, yes, at least in 577 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: the last year. Do we know how he died was 578 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: an old age. I believe he just died of old age. 579 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: It wasn't as if he died of a mysterious knife 580 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: wound to the back, right, But I didn't know if 581 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: it was an injury or an illness or something. As 582 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: far as I can tell, his seventies. Yeah, yeah, I've 583 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: been working out the mountains his entire life. So she though, 584 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 1: Julia Thomas, she might actually be the reason that we 585 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: know this story and that it's so popular. And that's 586 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: because after Waltz died, she and two other men went 587 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: out into the Suspicion Mountains looking for the mine, and 588 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 1: after they couldn't find it, they came back and she 589 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 1: started selling maps to the mine. So now she's making 590 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: money by saying this is this is a map based 591 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,399 Speaker 1: on what he told me or gave me, which is suspicious. 592 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,479 Speaker 1: It's almost a gold mine and of itself well played there. 593 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:25,879 Speaker 1: In eight two, she spoke with a writer named Pierre 594 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: pont Ce Bicknell, and he wrote, he wrote several stories 595 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,360 Speaker 1: over the years about this, and not surprisingly that the 596 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 1: details changed from addition to addition. He was writing his articles. 597 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:47,879 Speaker 1: At least the one that we're going to cite came 598 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,959 Speaker 1: from the San Francisco Chronicle, which actually had a pretty 599 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 1: decent circulation for the time. Yeah, and there's no internet 600 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: archive very easily. Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's the only 601 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: way to go. So it's easy. It's easy to just 602 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: print a bunch of different stuff. Just do what you want. Okay. 603 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 1: So we're gonna take an excerpt from an article that 604 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: he put A wrote and it was in the January thirteen, 605 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: eighteen edition of the San Francisco Chronicle. Joe, can you 606 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:21,359 Speaker 1: do your best eighteen nineties newsman voice for us? Oh? Yeah, 607 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 1: let's see, I'm gonna do a gruff mountain man voice here. Well, 608 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: that's not very imaginary circle, it's not more than five miles. 609 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 1: I don't think that's gonna I think that's gonna work. Alright, 610 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,919 Speaker 1: let me let me start over again. Okay, Okay, let's 611 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: just do it this way, just a flat Midwestern accent. 612 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,880 Speaker 1: The mind lines within an imaginary circle whose diameter is 613 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: not more than five miles and whose center is marked 614 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: by the weaver's needle, which is about feet higher. I'm 615 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 1: like a confusion of lesser peaks and mountain masses of 616 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 1: basaltic rock. The first orige. On the south side from 617 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 1: the west end of the range, they found a monument 618 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 1: structure a little weird night. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're missing 619 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 1: We're missing a verb there. Uh. They found a monumental 620 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 1: trail which led them northward past Sombrero Butte into a 621 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: long canyon, traveled northward in the gorge, and up over 622 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: a lofty ridge, hence downward past the needle, into a 623 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 1: canyon running north, and finally into a tributary canyon very 624 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,800 Speaker 1: steep and rocky and densely wooded, with the continuous thicket 625 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 1: of scrub oak. Reads like a legal description. Yeah, so 626 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,279 Speaker 1: it's not exactly and where he got all these details 627 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,719 Speaker 1: is really really confusing to me. Uh. The only thing 628 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 1: that I can guess, and I know a lot of 629 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: people think, is that he gave an interview to Julia 630 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 1: or Julia Thomas gave an interview to him, I should say, 631 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,240 Speaker 1: and then he ran with it and he added things. 632 00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 1: He changed the name of Weaver's needle to uh so, 633 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 1: like it says in here, I thinks Sombrero beaut He 634 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,320 Speaker 1: used to call it Sombrero peak, like the name's always 635 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 1: kind of got shuffled about. Is that what that is? Okay? 636 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 1: Here's the thing about about this description, and and of 637 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: course the map that Julia Thomas says was selling, is 638 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,239 Speaker 1: that Walts did drop some hints. Apparently he was known 639 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: for dropping some hints about where the mind was, But 640 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 1: nothing anywhere seems to lend me to believe that it 641 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 1: was as such a detailed description as this. There were 642 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 1: people who tried to follow him. It's according to the 643 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: legend he would go out and people say, I'm gonna 644 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: follow him, I'm gonna knock him over his head when 645 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:45,840 Speaker 1: I find his mind. I'm gonna take his claim, except 646 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: that he would always shake who was ever following him. 647 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: So I sometimes wonder if if that is true, that 648 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: bit about him shaking people. Maybe people he Bicknell talked 649 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 1: to people who gave bits and pieces that then Bicknell 650 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 1: assembled al on with the stuff that he got from 651 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 1: Julia Thomas. I don't know. I mean, that's that's a 652 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 1: complete guess on my part as to where this fantastic 653 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: word problem of a description comes from. Okay, let's move 654 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 1: on to the other thing that makes me think that 655 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 1: possibly this whole thing is a fake, and that is 656 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 1: the Peralta's. Once again, we're gonna talk about those folks. 657 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 1: They did. The first mention of them comes from documents 658 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:32,800 Speaker 1: that were filed in two and that documentation was from 659 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: a scam that was made up by him hand named 660 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 1: James Rivas. Supposedly, the Peraltas were actually in the area 661 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: for a long long time before that, right according to 662 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:48,840 Speaker 1: the lineage that Vas made, Yes, the name Peralta is 663 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,439 Speaker 1: a very common name, so there were it is very 664 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 1: possible that there were people with that name in the area. 665 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: But it seems that the lineage that is assigned to 666 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 1: this may have actually been taken from this scam that 667 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: that he was doing, because he's trying to do it 668 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 1: in a in a land grab bid. He claimed to 669 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:11,719 Speaker 1: be related to the family, and he claimed that he 670 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:13,879 Speaker 1: was working with the family or they had they had 671 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: given him this and there was some land claimed deed 672 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: deed stuff going on. He pulled this at least one 673 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 1: other time, um, and he he would double down on 674 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 1: it and then he get caught and he'd go to 675 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 1: jail and he'd start a different scam. But then from 676 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:32,279 Speaker 1: there the name didn't show up again until the Big 677 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 1: Nail article. So it may be that McNeill heard, oh, well, 678 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 1: there was the Peraltas, Well, let's go ahead and pull 679 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,360 Speaker 1: that into the story, and maybe that's where the seed 680 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,239 Speaker 1: of that part came from. I don't know this part 681 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 1: of the story, and that there's variants on that I 682 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 1: believe it was. One is that the Peraltas had a 683 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,759 Speaker 1: minor two or another one is that they just had 684 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:55,920 Speaker 1: a but little gold that they hid up in the 685 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,640 Speaker 1: Superstious Mountain. There was also that they were rich cattle ranchers. 686 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 1: There was also that that controlled a huge swath of 687 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,279 Speaker 1: the area, although I think the cattle rancher one is 688 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:09,400 Speaker 1: from the Reeva's scam. Probably. Yeah. The last thing that 689 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:13,760 Speaker 1: I have for this theory is that, you know, people 690 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 1: have been scouring the Superstition Mountains and especially in the 691 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:22,280 Speaker 1: area around Weaver's Needle for over a hundred years and 692 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:27,879 Speaker 1: nothing has been found. Nobody has found a thing. Um 693 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: and if indeed the thing is truly there, the chances 694 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 1: of anybody finding it, well, they're they're amazingly fantastic, and 695 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,880 Speaker 1: they're very low. And I say they're very low because 696 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 1: the area has been closed to mining. Uh. It was 697 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:47,799 Speaker 1: closed in four under the Wilderness Act of nineteen sixty four, 698 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,640 Speaker 1: which said you can't go in and do this stuff. 699 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 1: Prospecting today is allowed, and that is wander around, pick 700 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 1: up rocks off of the ground and then take them 701 00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 1: home and figure out what they are. No dig. If 702 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,399 Speaker 1: you want to dig, that is considered mining, and you've 703 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: got to get a permit to mine. You can also 704 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,480 Speaker 1: do what is called treasure trove hunting, which as you 705 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:12,880 Speaker 1: go along and you try to find some kind of 706 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:17,319 Speaker 1: treasure that's just sitting around, but you've also got to 707 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,880 Speaker 1: get a permit for that. So it's a real The 708 00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:22,760 Speaker 1: act is set up with a real catch twenty two. 709 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,359 Speaker 1: You can't show a fine unless you did for it, 710 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 1: but you can't did for it to have a claim 711 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:31,760 Speaker 1: to show. And if you did for it you suddenly 712 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:33,880 Speaker 1: show up with this claim, they're gonna put you in 713 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 1: irons and lock you away for digging unprotected layers. I 714 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: love a bureaucracy. I know, is I knew. I used 715 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 1: to work with somebody in her husband was a scuba 716 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:46,759 Speaker 1: diver and he and a friend discovered this treasure trove 717 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 1: of cars at the bottom of the Lamor River because 718 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,440 Speaker 1: people back before they closed the ramp by the Cellar Bridge, 719 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:57,240 Speaker 1: people would just like shove their cars out of the river. Yeah, 720 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 1: and so they wanted to salvious these cars and say. 721 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,879 Speaker 1: It was like, well, you can't. You can't salvage those cars. 722 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 1: Let's you have title to them. And they were like, well, 723 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 1: how are we going to get title unless we pull 724 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,640 Speaker 1: them out of the water. Well, we don't care. Actually 725 00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:11,759 Speaker 1: they worked it out, but yeah, it took him a 726 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 1: while bereacratic mindset, and yeah, I don't even want to 727 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 1: know how they had to go about that, but yeah, awesome, Okay, ok, 728 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,319 Speaker 1: let's go on to theory section number two, which is 729 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,960 Speaker 1: it's real you like how they put a little bit 730 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 1: of feeling behind that. I mean, I guess, yeah, you 731 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,360 Speaker 1: are you giving me a C minus on my my acting? Still, 732 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 1: I am no. I was more going to say, to 733 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,000 Speaker 1: the point of nobody's found it, you know, for me, 734 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,000 Speaker 1: it's kind of like, well, okay, you can't mind right, 735 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,400 Speaker 1: So even if there was this mine, and also, what's 736 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,719 Speaker 1: what's to say that it wasn't just totally mind dry, 737 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,080 Speaker 1: it's actually very possible, you know, that would account for 738 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,400 Speaker 1: nobody having found it. But well, and people have said 739 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: they found it. So if we're going to start and 740 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:56,640 Speaker 1: this isn't something that I got on what you guys 741 00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,400 Speaker 1: are looking at. But there is a guy who in 742 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,920 Speaker 1: the late seventies, I believe it was maybe it was 743 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:08,880 Speaker 1: the sad said he, I believe it was that age. 744 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,080 Speaker 1: He said he had met some men who had known 745 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,920 Speaker 1: the Dutchman and they had told him what the Dutchman 746 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,520 Speaker 1: had told them, and he went out and he found 747 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,800 Speaker 1: the Dutchman's mind. But it wasn't around Weaver's needle. It 748 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,120 Speaker 1: was in another area, in a valley, up a hill, 749 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,919 Speaker 1: up a mountain, and it was a pit mine and 750 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,480 Speaker 1: he pulled out, you know, a couple ten or twenty 751 00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,239 Speaker 1: thousand dollars worth of gold at the time, and the 752 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:39,680 Speaker 1: thing ran dry. So it is possible that somebody else 753 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:45,240 Speaker 1: found it, not knowing it was the Dutchman's mind. You're okay, 754 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:47,960 Speaker 1: so no, that's fine, because this is this is right 755 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:49,799 Speaker 1: along the lines of the fact that, yes, lots of 756 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,719 Speaker 1: people have been finding gold in and around the Phoenix area. Mean, 757 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,320 Speaker 1: we just we talked about the Vulture Mine, almost a 758 00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:00,320 Speaker 1: hundred years in operation for for God's sakes, um although 759 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,279 Speaker 1: I've I've heard too, though that geological surveys of the 760 00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 1: Superstition Mountains indicate there isn't likely to be any gold there. Well, 761 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:11,319 Speaker 1: that's yeah, that's I've heard that. I've also heard people say, well, 762 00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:13,680 Speaker 1: you've got to find the vein. There are precious metals. 763 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,319 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a huge copper mine right just to 764 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:22,120 Speaker 1: the east of the Superstitions that is being mined. So 765 00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,080 Speaker 1: there is stuff in the ground. I mean, I I 766 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,399 Speaker 1: don't know. And well, is it the mercury vapor test? 767 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:29,239 Speaker 1: Is that what you're talking about? Is that the one 768 00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:31,520 Speaker 1: you're referring to that was saying that there wasn't probably 769 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:33,600 Speaker 1: a lot of golden area. I don't know. I just 770 00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,000 Speaker 1: rather as they did a survey. I'm not sure exactly 771 00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,719 Speaker 1: how that A chairman who if it was just geological, 772 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:40,960 Speaker 1: It's like this is a kind of rock where you're 773 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 1: just not you know, it's like igneous rock. Volcanic in origin. 774 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:46,400 Speaker 1: My understanding is that gold veys comes from things like 775 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:50,000 Speaker 1: meteor impacts. Yeah and so, but a lot of the 776 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,200 Speaker 1: volcanic activity in the West is actually pretty recent in 777 00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:57,160 Speaker 1: geological terms, and so and so there probably are some 778 00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,640 Speaker 1: rich gold veins, but they're buried underneath a huge slab 779 00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:04,240 Speaker 1: of lava. True. Yeah, and but you know, I mean again, 780 00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,719 Speaker 1: there there were gold fields found. I mean, there's a 781 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:10,840 Speaker 1: place called Goldfield. There was not too far away from 782 00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:14,799 Speaker 1: where people think the Lost Dutchman's Mind is. There was 783 00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:18,960 Speaker 1: the Black Queen minds, which were super productive minds for 784 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:21,920 Speaker 1: a while. So, I mean, there is gold, There is 785 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,120 Speaker 1: gold in the area. Getting to it and finding it 786 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:27,919 Speaker 1: is the problem. And you know then that's that's part 787 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,000 Speaker 1: of the reason that like the Wildlife Act of nineteen 788 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,120 Speaker 1: sixty four was used to close the area because you 789 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,960 Speaker 1: know how people used to go prospecting dynamite dynamite just 790 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,920 Speaker 1: blow stuff up until something sparkles, so it looked like 791 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,200 Speaker 1: the whole area started looking like the surface of the moon. 792 00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:45,439 Speaker 1: And that's one of the reasons they did it because 793 00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:47,680 Speaker 1: people were just going crazy because they could because it 794 00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:51,080 Speaker 1: was who cares, it's the middle of hour. So but 795 00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:53,640 Speaker 1: people did find gold. I mean it did get found. 796 00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:56,799 Speaker 1: Now does that mean that the lost Dutchman's mind is real? 797 00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:01,799 Speaker 1: I don't know. I mentioned to briefly a second ago 798 00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:05,080 Speaker 1: was the I used the term pit mine. We I, 799 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:07,840 Speaker 1: at least in my head, always had this idea that 800 00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,520 Speaker 1: the Dutchman's mind must be your typical mind. That is 801 00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:13,720 Speaker 1: just a hole cut in the side of a mountain 802 00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:17,279 Speaker 1: and it burrows straight down and slowly slopes down. But 803 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,600 Speaker 1: there's there's our minds where guys just dig straight down. 804 00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:24,239 Speaker 1: It's literally just a pit in the ground. You dig 805 00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,400 Speaker 1: a hole and you put timbers around it so it 806 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,399 Speaker 1: doesn't collapse on you, and eventually stopped getting anything out 807 00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,760 Speaker 1: of it, and then you just walk away and nature 808 00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,840 Speaker 1: fills it in. So that's why we talked about the 809 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,920 Speaker 1: It could have been mined out or maybe he minded 810 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:41,600 Speaker 1: out and it just over time filled in. We don't know. 811 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:44,480 Speaker 1: I don't know how often they fill in. They fill 812 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:48,520 Speaker 1: in with dead bodies because people keep falling into well. 813 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,480 Speaker 1: You know, actually the landscape in the area has changed 814 00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,120 Speaker 1: in the last hundred years, not just because of bozos 815 00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:59,000 Speaker 1: out there with dynamite, but there are there have been earthquakes. 816 00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:04,040 Speaker 1: I think there have been a half dozen strong earthquakes 817 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:08,880 Speaker 1: in the last hundred years, enough that collapse of mind 818 00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:13,040 Speaker 1: shaft cause rock slides. So it could be that the 819 00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:16,640 Speaker 1: pit was filled in with material, or the entrance collapsed, 820 00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,120 Speaker 1: or it was covered in a rock slide, and this 821 00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,440 Speaker 1: is these are things It very easily could have happened. 822 00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,279 Speaker 1: And so that's why we don't see anything. You know, 823 00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,000 Speaker 1: everybody's like, oh, well, that's obviously just a bunch of 824 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,200 Speaker 1: stuff that's sloughed off. It can't be behind that. You 825 00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:34,680 Speaker 1: just keep going, Yeah, I don't know. It's it's a 826 00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:37,440 Speaker 1: total guess. I do want to say as a public 827 00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,359 Speaker 1: service announcement here that if you do decide to go 828 00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,160 Speaker 1: out and mind for the Lost Dutchment on your own, 829 00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:45,080 Speaker 1: you want to go dutching, because that's what it's called. 830 00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:50,440 Speaker 1: I want you. You need to get a guide, You 831 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:53,040 Speaker 1: need to take the right provisions because it is very 832 00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:56,879 Speaker 1: easy to get lost and to suffer great injury, if 833 00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:00,520 Speaker 1: not die. If you really want to do this, you 834 00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:05,080 Speaker 1: can actually join the Lost Dutchman's Mining Association and for 835 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,000 Speaker 1: a small fee of just under five thousand dollars, they'll 836 00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,640 Speaker 1: let you go to their site, which is right near 837 00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:12,960 Speaker 1: where they say the Lost Dutchman's Mine is and you 838 00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:15,880 Speaker 1: can dig for gold. Dare. Yeah, I think that's probably 839 00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:19,239 Speaker 1: a better way to invest your I agree. And five 840 00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:22,640 Speaker 1: dollar one time fee. That's if you pay all up 841 00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:24,880 Speaker 1: at once. You they've got payment plans you could you 842 00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:26,320 Speaker 1: could spread it out as long as you want. You 843 00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:28,240 Speaker 1: don't get the discounts if you don't pay up front. 844 00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:31,319 Speaker 1: But well, I mean, I guess you know. For me, 845 00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:35,960 Speaker 1: one of the things is it's all circled around the needle, right, 846 00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:39,600 Speaker 1: we're seeing it's weavers needle. It's all weaver's needle. But 847 00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:48,160 Speaker 1: I've been hiking before. It's cool. And we live near 848 00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:50,640 Speaker 1: the Cascades, so you go in the Cascades and you 849 00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,879 Speaker 1: can tell the difference between that's the mountain and this 850 00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:58,759 Speaker 1: is all of the other little er mountains combs things 851 00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:01,960 Speaker 1: around it. But I don't know that I can necessarily, 852 00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:05,040 Speaker 1: and granted I'm a layman, right, but I can't necessarily 853 00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,440 Speaker 1: when I'm standing next to a thing, say oh, this 854 00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:10,440 Speaker 1: is the tallest peak in this area versus that's the 855 00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,560 Speaker 1: tallest peak in this area, versus that thing that's twenty 856 00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,440 Speaker 1: miles away. The tallest peak in this area. So I 857 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,880 Speaker 1: don't know how much room for error there is on 858 00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:21,600 Speaker 1: saying yeah, it was the biggest thing around because we 859 00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:25,320 Speaker 1: were it was very distinct. It is a very distinct. 860 00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:29,080 Speaker 1: It's almost looks like an obelis and it has been, yeah, 861 00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,640 Speaker 1: throughout all of the earthquakes and stuff, and you know, 862 00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:33,960 Speaker 1: it might just be one of these one of those 863 00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:35,480 Speaker 1: things that's like the guy who's looking out of the 864 00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:37,480 Speaker 1: of the street light for his car key's even though 865 00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:39,520 Speaker 1: he didn't drop them there. You know, it's kind of 866 00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:42,800 Speaker 1: like that weaver's needle is such a distinctive landmark that 867 00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:44,440 Speaker 1: how could you leave it out of your story? You know? 868 00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,640 Speaker 1: That's great? Wow, this is this fabulous landmark that's easy 869 00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:50,879 Speaker 1: to find. Everybody knows what it is, very recognizable. Yeah, 870 00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,040 Speaker 1: and so yeah, so not surprising, I guess. So, but 871 00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,080 Speaker 1: that sort of leads me towards a fake part of things. 872 00:49:56,120 --> 00:50:02,359 Speaker 1: I guess. Okay, Well, although I for me, if I'm 873 00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:05,040 Speaker 1: trying to hide a mind and people are really pushing 874 00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:10,279 Speaker 1: me for info, and especially especially if this is the 875 00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:12,640 Speaker 1: sort of situation where I've got a mind and I 876 00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:14,040 Speaker 1: just want to line of credit for a couple of 877 00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:17,400 Speaker 1: drinks and they're like, okay, Joe, I'll pour you another 878 00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:20,360 Speaker 1: drink if you give me like one hint as to 879 00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,160 Speaker 1: where your mind is. And you say it's near Weaver's Needle, 880 00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:26,399 Speaker 1: and they'll go, okay, yeah, I know where that is. Okay, cool, 881 00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:30,120 Speaker 1: here's your you know, here's your thing. Yeah, versus saying 882 00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:35,080 Speaker 1: you know that fourth biggest peak on the east side 883 00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:39,480 Speaker 1: there that area you I mean, that's not what you're 884 00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:42,000 Speaker 1: gonna say. You might know in your brain that's where 885 00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:44,680 Speaker 1: it is. But I think, especially if you're trying to 886 00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:48,719 Speaker 1: sell maps like Julia Thompson, you're just gonna say it's there. 887 00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:54,520 Speaker 1: But I think it exists. I do. I would like 888 00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:57,360 Speaker 1: to think it does, but I also have a feeling 889 00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:01,120 Speaker 1: that if it did, it's it's been leaned out long ago, 890 00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:04,520 Speaker 1: and it's just it's a story as always, it's it's 891 00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:08,200 Speaker 1: the story is snowballed, and the mind is now in 892 00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:11,960 Speaker 1: telling is much greater than it ever was. An actuality. Yeah, 893 00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,760 Speaker 1: I think there's definitely a nugget of truth here. Oh god, 894 00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:20,279 Speaker 1: oh wow wow. Well. The last thing I was gonna 895 00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,279 Speaker 1: tell you guys I really found interesting is there was 896 00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:27,600 Speaker 1: a book called Earthcore that I listened to several years ago, 897 00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:30,719 Speaker 1: and it had. When I was listening to it, all 898 00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:34,359 Speaker 1: these features that were described and about these guys were 899 00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,640 Speaker 1: mining and YadA YadA, And as I was researching the 900 00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,319 Speaker 1: Lost Dutchman's Mind, I realized I was like, Wow, a 901 00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:45,800 Speaker 1: lot of this sounds like the terrain around Weaver's Needle 902 00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:47,560 Speaker 1: and makes me wonder if this is what was the 903 00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,239 Speaker 1: foundation of the story or the inspiration for stories set 904 00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:54,840 Speaker 1: somewhere else. But it was just really interesting. It's like, Oh, 905 00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:56,839 Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to go pick up Earthcore again, damn 906 00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:01,080 Speaker 1: it and find out if that's it. Um. Yeah, I'm 907 00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:03,640 Speaker 1: kind of I'm kind of tending to think that if 908 00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,440 Speaker 1: I found a great vein of gold and I'm going 909 00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:08,080 Speaker 1: to the town that people are asking me about it, 910 00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:10,400 Speaker 1: I would send them totally in the wrong direction. So 911 00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:12,399 Speaker 1: there might be a lost mine or a great vein 912 00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:17,040 Speaker 1: of gold, but it's probably not in the superstitions at all. Yeah, 913 00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:19,319 Speaker 1: it's right along the same thing as what Devil was saying. Yeah, 914 00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:22,920 Speaker 1: you might you might walk out towards Weaver's Needle knowing 915 00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:25,520 Speaker 1: that you can easily ditch the guys that are following 916 00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:29,120 Speaker 1: you and then hang it right and start heading east 917 00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:32,080 Speaker 1: to your real site, which is not even in the mountains, 918 00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:36,120 Speaker 1: which is not even there. Yeah, exactly exactly. That's uh so, Yeah, 919 00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:39,480 Speaker 1: I'm thinking that probably it might have been a rich 920 00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:42,360 Speaker 1: vein somewhere, but not in the Superstition Mountains. Yeah, I 921 00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:44,239 Speaker 1: don't know. It's it's hard to say. I mean, like 922 00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,160 Speaker 1: I said that, there are minds right in that area, 923 00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:49,960 Speaker 1: right around where everybody thinks it. And I think that's 924 00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:53,600 Speaker 1: part of why the legend is so solid and built in. 925 00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:56,920 Speaker 1: It's just because there was actual productive minds. Well, it's 926 00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,719 Speaker 1: a cool legend. I mean, I've liked I've enjoyed reading 927 00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:01,520 Speaker 1: about this onceince I was a kid. Yeah, it's been 928 00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:03,359 Speaker 1: around a long time, it has, and I think we've 929 00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:06,520 Speaker 1: probably sunk enough time into this one. So let's go 930 00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,600 Speaker 1: dev it. Devin started it. Let's go ahead, and so 931 00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,120 Speaker 1: we should probably go ahead and give everybody their favorite 932 00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:16,759 Speaker 1: bit of information because and she already used that one. 933 00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,760 Speaker 1: You got to come something better. You're really you're minding 934 00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,480 Speaker 1: for something now that was just as bad. Well, we 935 00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:25,759 Speaker 1: have a website if you want to go see that website. 936 00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:29,279 Speaker 1: It is thinking Sideways podcast dot com. We'll have some 937 00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,920 Speaker 1: links for research on this episode, along with all of 938 00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:35,440 Speaker 1: our other episodes, so you can listen to and download 939 00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:39,080 Speaker 1: from there. I know a lot of people are using iTunes, 940 00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:42,680 Speaker 1: so if you're on iTunes, subscribe, do you take the 941 00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,200 Speaker 1: time to leave a rating and a review, because that's 942 00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,600 Speaker 1: what helps other folks find us. We're on pretty much 943 00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:51,840 Speaker 1: every streaming service that's out there. I know that people 944 00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:53,920 Speaker 1: are using Stitcher. I also know that we hear a 945 00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:56,560 Speaker 1: lot from Google Play. A lot of people are finding 946 00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:00,160 Speaker 1: us on there. So whatever service you're using, we're on there, 947 00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:02,640 Speaker 1: and if it allows you to rate and review, please 948 00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:05,720 Speaker 1: do so on that as well. We're on social media, 949 00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:09,160 Speaker 1: so we have multiple accounts. We are on Facebook, where 950 00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:12,440 Speaker 1: we have a Facebook page and a Facebook group, so 951 00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:14,160 Speaker 1: you have to join the group, but there's always good 952 00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:16,920 Speaker 1: stuff and fun discussions going on in there. We are 953 00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:20,160 Speaker 1: on Twitter. We're thinking sideways without the G in the 954 00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:23,400 Speaker 1: middle because there's that character limit thing on Twitter, just 955 00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:28,040 Speaker 1: like what you can tweet abbreviated as well, where Devin 956 00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:31,560 Speaker 1: sends out weird stuff and confuses people and it's it's 957 00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:34,520 Speaker 1: quite entertaining. I keep making jokes and nobody's getting them anymore. 958 00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:42,600 Speaker 1: They're falling flat account and I'll pretend to get them. Yeah. Um. 959 00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:46,120 Speaker 1: We are also on Reddit, so we have a subreddit 960 00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:49,120 Speaker 1: which is Thinking Sideways and there. I've been noticing a 961 00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:53,560 Speaker 1: lot more stuff coming through Reddit lately, so it's taken 962 00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:56,600 Speaker 1: some time. If you want to go ahead and get 963 00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:58,839 Speaker 1: a hold of us, you can do so through our 964 00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:01,360 Speaker 1: email account. So if you have a question, you have 965 00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:03,640 Speaker 1: a concern, you want to share a story, you just 966 00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:06,480 Speaker 1: want to chat, you send us that email at Thinking 967 00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:10,200 Speaker 1: Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. Do be aware, we 968 00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:12,560 Speaker 1: get a lot of emails, so these days were typically 969 00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:15,279 Speaker 1: a little bit behind, but we're still working. We're still 970 00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:18,960 Speaker 1: trying to get to everybody as best we can. Now 971 00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:21,759 Speaker 1: you're probably thinking to yourself, well, this is awesome and 972 00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:23,560 Speaker 1: I'd like to help you out. Well, there's a couple 973 00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:26,560 Speaker 1: of different ways you can support the show. We sell merchandise. 974 00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:30,880 Speaker 1: We have shirts and mugs and other stuff that I 975 00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,240 Speaker 1: can't even think of of what it is at the moment. Stickers, 976 00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:35,840 Speaker 1: that's the other word I couldn't think of. I lost stickers. 977 00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:38,799 Speaker 1: They are both avail. All those things are available through 978 00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:41,520 Speaker 1: Zazzle and red Bubble. You can find those on the 979 00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:44,200 Speaker 1: right hand panel of our website. The links to those 980 00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:49,080 Speaker 1: two directly to our pages. We have a account with PayPal. 981 00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:51,120 Speaker 1: If you want to do a one time donation, you're 982 00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:53,600 Speaker 1: more than welcome to do that, and we appreciate that. 983 00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:56,000 Speaker 1: If you'd like to do it on a recurring basis, 984 00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:00,000 Speaker 1: then that's where you're gonna go to Patreon patreon dot com, 985 00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,520 Speaker 1: slash thinking Sideways, where you can pledge a certain amount 986 00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:07,160 Speaker 1: per episodes, so every time an episode drops, then what 987 00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:09,359 Speaker 1: you have pledged would be the amount that would come 988 00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:12,000 Speaker 1: out and go to us. And we appreciate that just 989 00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:14,680 Speaker 1: as much as people who are buying merchandise and people 990 00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:18,160 Speaker 1: who are using the PayPal and it is very awesome 991 00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:20,800 Speaker 1: and thank you. And if you prefer to sort of 992 00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,240 Speaker 1: stay off the radar, if you're like a drug kapin whatever, 993 00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:25,960 Speaker 1: just send us an email. Will give you r PO box. 994 00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:28,240 Speaker 1: You can send us a novel, pull of cash, or 995 00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:32,799 Speaker 1: maybe you know, a kilo cocaine whatever. We appreciate all contributions, 996 00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:35,319 Speaker 1: we really do, so send us out an email for ever. 997 00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:38,680 Speaker 1: Anybody who's listening. Disregard what Joe said, except for the 998 00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:41,560 Speaker 1: part of sending us cash. Yeah, yeah, the drugs not 999 00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:45,360 Speaker 1: so much. Okay, okay, we are going to go ahead 1000 00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:48,600 Speaker 1: and wrap this one up and call it a night. 1001 00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:51,560 Speaker 1: So thanks a lot everybody, and we will talk to 1002 00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:54,759 Speaker 1: you next week. Bye. Uys. I was waiting for a 1003 00:56:54,760 --> 00:57:00,680 Speaker 1: better pun. I got nothing. Mind out, tapped out at 1004 00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:05,719 Speaker 1: the bottom, nothing more in there? Really run this vein dry? Yeah? I, 1005 00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:09,200 Speaker 1: Like I said, keep digging next week.