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Speaker 1: Okay for the High and Mighty Tour people, we are

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Speaker 1: rocket and rolling. These are the shows we have coming up.

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Speaker 1: April twenty third is Kansas City, Missouri. April twenty fourth

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Speaker 1: is Saint Louis, Missouri. April twenty fifth is Minneapolis. April

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Speaker 1: thirtieth Nashville. May first, Charlotte, North Carolina. May second is Durham,

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Speaker 1: North Carolina. May sixth in Los Angeles at the Sabon

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Speaker 1: Theater for Netflix as a joke. May fifteenth, I will

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Speaker 1: be in Saratoga May sixteenth, Monterey, May seventeenth, Modesto.

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Speaker 2: I will be in port Chester on June fourth, and

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Speaker 2: we added two new dates to the High and Mighty Tour.

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Speaker 1: On June third, I am coming to Saratoga Springs, New York.

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Speaker 3: So pre sale has.

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Speaker 1: Begun for that, and then on June twenty eighth, I

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Speaker 1: am coming to Nantucket and presale has started on that.

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Speaker 1: June fifth, I will be in Boston, Massachusetts. June twelfth,

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Speaker 1: I will be in Portland, Oregon. And June thirteenth I

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Speaker 1: will be in Seattle, Washington. June twenty seventh is going

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Speaker 1: to be Hyenna's, Massachusetts. August sixth is Red Bank, New

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Speaker 1: Jersey August seventh. I'm coming home to Montclair, New Jersey

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Speaker 1: August fifteenth. Is Calgary, Alberta, Canada, September eighteenth, Santa Barbara

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Speaker 1: September nineteenth, San Diego September twenty fifth. I will be

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Speaker 1: at the Beacon in New York City September twenty sixth.

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Speaker 1: I will be in Philadelphia September twenty seventh, New Haven, Connecticut.

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Speaker 1: October second, Atlanta, Georgia, October third, Baltimore, Maryland, October fourth, Saginaw, Michigan,

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Speaker 1: October ninth, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, October tenth, Toronto, Canada, October sixteenth.

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Speaker 1: I'm coming to Boise, Idaho, October seventeenth, Spokane, Washington, November seventh.

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Speaker 1: I will be in San Francisco and November thirteenth, Salt

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Speaker 1: Lake City November twentieth, Austin November twenty first, Houston, Texas,

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Speaker 1: November twenty second, Irving, Texas.

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Speaker 2: December fifth.

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Speaker 1: I am adding a second show in Denver for those

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Speaker 1: of you who can get tickets to the first one.

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Speaker 1: And on December sixth, I will be coming to Vancouver, Canada. Okay,

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Speaker 1: those are all my dates for the Hide Mighty Door.

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Speaker 1: Go to Chelseahandler dot com for tickets.

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Speaker 4: Hello Catherine, Hi Chelsea, how's the tour going?

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Speaker 1: Tour is going. It's a lot with Yaminika. It's a

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Speaker 1: full time job having her on tour with me.

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Speaker 4: It's like a nanny job situation.

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Speaker 1: It's basically I've turned into a nanny.

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Speaker 2: She slept in my room again.

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Speaker 1: I opened that door accidentally one weekend when she had

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Speaker 1: overbooked her double booked herself. And now she wants a weekend,

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Speaker 1: wants to sleep together, which you know is once too

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Speaker 1: many times for me. So I don't know, We're gonna

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Speaker 1: have to really reconfigure this weekend. I have Kansas City,

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Speaker 1: which I'm so excited about. I haven't been back to

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Speaker 1: Kansas City in a while. I'm going to Kansas City

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Speaker 1: Thursday night. And then I have Minneapolis and I have

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Speaker 1: Saint Louis, so I have lots of good stuff.

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Speaker 3: Oh nice.

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Speaker 4: Actually, I think our minisode callers for this week are

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Speaker 4: going to be seeing you in Minneapolis, so.

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Speaker 2: You'll, oh good. Yeah, I can't wait to go to

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Speaker 2: Minneapolis and give them some love too. They need it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that'll be coming out tomorrow. So oh, everybody listened

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Speaker 4: into that minisod it's very cute and funny.

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, yes, yeah, I said about the couple's counseling.

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Speaker 3: Yes, some couples counseling.

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Speaker 4: Chelsea, I have a question for you that's related to

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Speaker 4: the guest for this week. So I've been trying to

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Speaker 4: do the gratitude journal and it feels a little stiff

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Speaker 4: to me to just be like I am grateful for this.

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Speaker 3: I am grateful for this.

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Speaker 2: Like how are you writing it?

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Speaker 4: Is that what you're doing like listing things?

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Speaker 3: Are you getting more creative with it?

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Speaker 2: It's funny.

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Speaker 1: I'm reading another book called like Mind, Mind, Mind your Body,

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Speaker 1: this new book which is also talks about journaling, and

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Speaker 1: like the big which which we talk about in this

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Speaker 1: episode with our guest, is like you want to write

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Speaker 1: it freestyle, knowing like I think anything that prevents us

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Speaker 1: from this isn't to your point exactly, but like you

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Speaker 1: want to write it assuming no one's ever going to

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Speaker 1: fucking read it, you know. Like Ben Bruno was over

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Speaker 1: this morning and he's like, I'm writing it as like,

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Speaker 1: you know, to vent he goes, So I delete it

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Speaker 1: every day too, because I'm like, I don't want anyone

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Speaker 1: to ever see this but that's how I'm able to

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Speaker 1: be my most honest self. And I think that is

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Speaker 1: like I do think that stops everyone from being fully honest,

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Speaker 1: because you, like you want to be grateful just for

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Speaker 1: the things that you're supposed to be grateful for, in

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Speaker 1: case anybody ever reads your gratitude list, Like, that's how

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Speaker 1: I think about it.

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Speaker 2: So I do think it's a little stiff, but I

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Speaker 2: mean I do it just.

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Speaker 1: More of an exercise, and I do write or I

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Speaker 1: sometimes do it in Spanish and I write so agri

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Speaker 1: desido or you know, uh or astoy agri desido and practicamos. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like just to do it. I don't know, but it

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Speaker 1: is kind of perfunctory. Yeah, you're just doing I don't

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Speaker 1: say the same things every day, but I do just

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Speaker 1: go through mine is like how are you going to

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Speaker 1: make today special?

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Speaker 2: And name three.

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Speaker 1: Words to describe yourself and what are you grateful for?

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Speaker 1: So it's like three different things.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I guess it can be.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think if you're really getting into journaling,

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Speaker 1: you really do have to get a journal and just

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Speaker 1: like let it rip and then put it in a

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Speaker 1: fucking safe Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, see, I have like my journal journal that I've

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Speaker 4: been trying to get back into. And then I have

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Speaker 4: like my little Gratitude journal, which is my little like

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Speaker 4: daily my daily driver.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really hard for me to write long form

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Speaker 1: in handwriting, like I've lost that, Like I'm I'm on

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Speaker 1: a computer, you know what I mean. That's where So

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Speaker 1: it's yeah, I don't know. I've got to get into

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Speaker 1: it though, because everything I'm reading about it, it's everywhere

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Speaker 1: I go.

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Speaker 2: So that's a sign. Is that?

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Speaker 4: Did they talk about that in Your Mind Body book

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Speaker 4: that you're reading right now.

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Speaker 2: To Mind your Body.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a lot about meditation and journaling so like

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Speaker 1: so that you just to like connect with yourself, you know,

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Speaker 1: to to connect our conscious to our unconscious.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Okay, ooh and I love our guest today. She's perfect

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Speaker 4: for this conversation.

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Speaker 2: Oh well, she's very exciting.

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Speaker 1: She wrote the book Between Two Kingdoms and her new

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Speaker 1: book is called the Book of Alchemy. So please welcome

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Speaker 1: Suleika Joad. Well, I am so thrilled to be sitting

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Speaker 1: down and talking with you, because, first of all, Catherine's here,

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Speaker 1: this is my producer, she's an.

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Speaker 2: She's gonna chime in and whenever so you just so.

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Speaker 1: You're aware amazing periodically periodically with her own questions. I

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Speaker 1: first became familiar with you with your last book, Between

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Speaker 1: Two Kingdoms, which was so beautiful. A friend of mine

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Speaker 1: handed it to me and was like, you have to

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Speaker 1: read this book. You're gonna love it. And I was

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Speaker 1: blown away by your story and so and you're just

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Speaker 1: your attitude, the way that you dealt with everything in

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Speaker 1: such a graceful way, at least in the book. That's

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Speaker 1: how it came across. And I'm sure you had your

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Speaker 1: moments that maybe weren't so graceful. But then I started

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Speaker 1: following you on Instagram and I didn't realize you were

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Speaker 1: married to John Batiste, and so then I started watching

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Speaker 1: your relationship from Afar and I was like, these two

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Speaker 1: are such a magical couple, and not an Instagram magical couple,

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Speaker 1: a magical couple and there's magic there. And so I've

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Speaker 1: just been so blown away by your perseverance, your fortitude,

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Speaker 1: all of it. I just find it so inspiring and

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Speaker 1: such a wonderful story to be sharing with people, you know,

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Speaker 1: anyone going through something like this, which I don't know

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Speaker 1: anybody else who's gone through something like this, but I

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Speaker 1: know there are people out there that have. So let's

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Speaker 1: just start with I know you have a new book out.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about that. I've read it, but

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Speaker 1: I want to start talking about Between two Kingdoms and

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Speaker 1: when you found you were able to start to write

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Speaker 1: about your experience.

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Speaker 3: So I'm someone who was never interested in writing in

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Speaker 3: the first person. When I graduated from college, I wanted

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Speaker 3: to be a war correspondent. I have whatever that missing

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Speaker 3: genius when it comes to fear, Like if there's a

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Speaker 3: building on fire, my instinct is to run toward it.

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Speaker 1: It's like an amygdala that you're yeah, yeah, that's your

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Speaker 1: fear part, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Like I'm most comfortable in crisis, Like if you're going

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Speaker 3: through shit, I'm the person to call, Like I get

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Speaker 3: calm when there's chaos. Okay, every day normal life a

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Speaker 3: little harder for me to manage. I could have been

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Speaker 3: like an er doctor in a different life. But when

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Speaker 3: I got sick myself. You know, I was twenty two

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Speaker 3: years old, diagnosed with leukemia, diagnosed with leukemia, and about

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Speaker 3: to begin your life right exactly. It's like what do

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Speaker 3: they say in college graduation speeches, Like you're going to

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Speaker 3: be entering the real world, and that was the goal.

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Speaker 3: The goal was independence, The goal was to find my way.

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Speaker 3: The goal was to do what all my other friends

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Speaker 3: were doing, which was launching their careers and traveling and

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Speaker 3: all the other you know, big and small milestones of

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Speaker 3: early adulthood. And I, for as long as I can remember,

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Speaker 3: have had this sort of ambition monster at me. And

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Speaker 3: I had my one year plan and my five year

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Speaker 3: plan and my ten year plan, et cetera, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: And suddenly I found myself, for the first time ever,

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Speaker 3: stuck in bed without the possibility of doing anything. And

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Speaker 3: that was really hard for me, and it was really

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Speaker 3: important for me, because when you're a person who can easily,

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Speaker 3: as I do, conflate productivity and momentum with a feeling

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Speaker 3: of self worth and meaning, to be stripped away from

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Speaker 3: the ability of doing anything is really hard, and for

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Speaker 3: me was really necessary, and so in a weird kind

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Speaker 3: of perverse way, it felt liberating to not have expectations

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Speaker 3: of myself, to not have external expectations, and to not

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Speaker 3: be able to do anything.

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Speaker 1: So if you can recall, like what was the period

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Speaker 1: of time between your diagnosis and the acceptance of what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about, like, because initially you would think, Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's get how are we going to fix this, Like

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Speaker 1: I'm going to do the chemo, I'm going to do

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Speaker 1: all the tree, and I'm going to be you know,

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Speaker 1: you have your plan for that, right, which also obviously

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Speaker 1: doesn't go your way all the time. But I know

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Speaker 1: you had a lot of support from your parents. You

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Speaker 1: talk about that in the book Your parents sound amazing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what was a period of time between finding out about

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Speaker 1: that and then accepting, Okay, I'm not going to be

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Speaker 1: doing any of the things that I had planned on

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Speaker 1: doing in the moment that I wanted to do.

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Speaker 3: Them, Okay. So I remember so clearly the day I

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Speaker 3: was admitted to the hospital right after my diagnosis. I

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Speaker 3: was going to be in the hospital for six weeks,

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Speaker 3: and I packed a giant suitcase filled with books, and

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Speaker 3: I told my professor father, I'm going to use this

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Speaker 3: time to read through the rest of the Western canon,

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Speaker 3: And I had worn Peace on my best side table.

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Speaker 3: And it's kind of absurd to me now, because of

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Speaker 3: course I didn't read any of those books. Instead, what

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Speaker 3: I attempted to do was to set the world record

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Speaker 3: for the number of Grace Anatomy episodes watched consecutively, and

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Speaker 3: I think it was this real reckoning with these new limitations.

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Speaker 3: And at first I bucked against those limitations. I tried

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Speaker 3: to muscle through them. And at some point, after weeks

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Speaker 3: and weeks of trying and failing and feeling even worse

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Speaker 3: for failing than I already did, I realized I had

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Speaker 3: to surrender to these new limitations.

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Speaker 1: Was it like in a spiritual sense, like were you

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Speaker 1: feeling that in a spiritual sense or in a pragmatic

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Speaker 1: sense both?

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Speaker 3: Honestly? Like, I had such limited energy that I could

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Speaker 3: maybe do three things, two or three hours worth of

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Speaker 3: you know, spending time with family or whatever it was

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Speaker 3: that I was doing. And what that forced me to

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Speaker 3: do was to figure out what was possible within those

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Speaker 3: limitations and to get really clear a reframe of what

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Speaker 3: had been the central question, which is, you know, what

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Speaker 3: does success look like? And a shift to a question

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Speaker 3: of what does success feel like for me today? And

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Speaker 3: the answers to those two questions were really different. It

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Speaker 3: wasn't reading more in peace, It was spending time with

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Speaker 3: my family. It was laughing, it was watching something silly,

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Speaker 3: It was not trying to do something big and ambitious,

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Speaker 3: but something much quieter and just kind of following my

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Speaker 3: curiosity without having a goal in mind.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's applicable to so many people in

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Speaker 1: so many different circumstances, not just if you are very

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Speaker 1: sick in the hospital or going through a treatment in

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Speaker 1: the hospital. I think it's really important for all of

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Speaker 1: us to sometimes be like, Okay, today's not the day

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Speaker 1: for me to be successful. Today's not for the day

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Speaker 1: for me to accomplish all of these ideas of what

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Speaker 1: I believe accomplishment is sometimes you do need to lie

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Speaker 1: back and watch Gray's Anatomy, whether you were sick.

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Speaker 3: Or not totally and sometimes that's what success is for

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Speaker 3: that day, right right. And so that led me on

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Speaker 3: this journey of not having goals, which counterintitively was an

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Speaker 3: important course correction because what I ended up doing was

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Speaker 3: not trying to be a work correspondent because I couldn't

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Speaker 3: be a work correspondent. It was becoming friends with like

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Speaker 3: my hilarious hospital neighbor Dennis, who was mounting a strike

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Speaker 3: against the cafeteria because our meal trays kept coming up

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Speaker 3: with the food still frozen. It was, you know, getting

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Speaker 3: to know my nurses and residents. If you've ever been sick,

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Speaker 3: then you know that the nurses are the ones who

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Speaker 3: run the show, and you know, just writing in my

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Speaker 3: journal just for myself. I remember like one of the

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Speaker 3: first little anecdotes I wrote was about Gray's anatomy, because

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Speaker 3: a resident came to my room and I said, does

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Speaker 3: your life have any resemblance to the cast of Grace?

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Speaker 3: And she was like, we have just as much sex,

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Speaker 3: but everyone is significantly less attractive. And I wrote that

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Speaker 3: down in my journal and made me laugh. And suddenly

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Speaker 3: the hospital was not this grim, depressing place that I

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Speaker 3: was forced to be, and it was a place where

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Speaker 3: a lot of life was happening and a lot of

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Speaker 3: story was unfolding. And I realized, in you know, in

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Speaker 3: keeping this journal, that I was using it as a

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Speaker 3: kind of reporters pad, and that while I wasn't going

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Speaker 3: to be a war correspondent in the way that I'd hoped,

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Speaker 3: I could report from the front lines of my hospital

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Speaker 3: bed from a very different kind of conflict zone. And

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Speaker 3: so that's how I started writing about that extent.

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Speaker 1: And I love that because it's so emblematic of life,

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Speaker 1: Like everywhere you look there's life happening totally, and sometimes

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Speaker 1: we are so wrapped up in our own lives that

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Speaker 1: we don't look around, you know, we're so concer I

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Speaker 1: know that I've felt that way the last couple of weeks.

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Speaker 1: I'm just like, oh my god, what's wrong, Like I

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Speaker 1: can't even you know, I've been so busy that i

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Speaker 1: haven't been able to stop and look around and like,

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Speaker 1: look at people, take them in, you know, make eye contact,

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Speaker 1: make sure you're smiling and saying thank you and please

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Speaker 1: and all of the basic things. But beyond that, there's

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Speaker 1: so much more to look at. When you ever you

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Speaker 1: are in an environment that you're unfamiliar with, there's so

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Speaker 1: much life happening.

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Speaker 3: And while it's important to have goals, sometimes the goals

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Speaker 3: can distract you from the unexpected things that are unfolding

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Speaker 3: in the meantime, from the more interesting story or the

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Speaker 3: more interesting goal that may not be part of the plan,

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Speaker 3: that may not make sense, but ends up actually being

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Speaker 3: the thing that opens up a whole new world. And

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Speaker 3: that was it for me. I'm still a really private person,

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Speaker 3: but in writing in the first person, I realized, you know,

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Speaker 3: as uncomfortable and exposing as it felt there was so

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Speaker 3: much grists there. There's so much I wanted to talk about,

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Speaker 3: not specifically about illness, but about things like early menopause,

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Speaker 3: which I went through when I was twenty four years

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Speaker 3: old as a result of chemo, about you know, the

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Speaker 3: impact on relationships, about how you keep yourself sane when

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Speaker 3: you're navigating an insane healthcare system. Like, there was just

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Speaker 3: so much there, and it was that important lesson of

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Speaker 3: you don't have to reinvent the wheel. You don't have

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Speaker 3: to like travel far to find an interesting story. There's

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Speaker 3: always something interesting unfolding right in front of you.

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Speaker 1: Right and even though your story is very interesting, I

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Speaker 1: mean you being in and out of the hospital as

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Speaker 1: many times, you were so many close calls, and I mean,

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Speaker 1: it was that book was just astounding. I couldn't believe

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Speaker 1: when I was reading your first book, I was just like,

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Speaker 1: I can't believe this woman is alive to tell the story.

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Speaker 1: So I can't imagine the gratitude and like the depth

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Speaker 1: in which you came out of that, you know, with

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Speaker 1: the depth that you came out of it with to

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Speaker 1: become such a person that has survived.

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Speaker 2: Something like that.

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Speaker 1: And also for your parents, I mean watching your parents

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Speaker 1: care for you, watching how much it must have how

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Speaker 1: difficult it must have been for them to watch you,

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Speaker 1: you know, go through all of that. That really had

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Speaker 1: a huge impact to think about, To think about what

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Speaker 1: it must be like to be parents and have your

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Speaker 1: child be in that situation was really heartbreaking.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, you know, there's that old Hemingway

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Speaker 3: saw of the world breaks you and you are stronger

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Speaker 3: in the broken places. Like I don't think that sense

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Speaker 3: of gratitude just naturally happens. I don't believe that people

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Speaker 3: necessarily go through something difficult and emerge better and braver

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Speaker 3: and stronger and wiser for what they've been through. Victor Frankel,

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Speaker 3: there's a quote attributed to him that says, there's a

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Speaker 3: space between stimulus and response, and in that space is

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Speaker 3: how you choose to respond, and then that response is

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Speaker 3: your freedom and growth. So lots of people go through

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Speaker 3: almost lots of people go through hard things. It doesn't

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Speaker 3: just automatically turn you into a better person. To as

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Speaker 3: my friend Max said, who is a friend of mine

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Speaker 3: who I met in treatment, was also in treatment. He said,

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Speaker 3: you know, just because you have cancer doesn't mean you

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Speaker 3: can't also be an asshole. But I think those moments

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Speaker 3: when you get brought to your knees open up an

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Speaker 3: invitation for reckoning about what is working and what is not,

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Speaker 3: and what your priorities are and what it means to

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Speaker 3: actually live a good and meaningful life, because I think

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Speaker 3: for so many of us, you know, we move through

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Speaker 3: time as though time is in it. Especially at twenty two,

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Speaker 3: I was like, I have time to figure out who

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Speaker 3: I am, time to figure out what I want to do.

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Speaker 3: And I think the biggest shift for me was that

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Speaker 3: relationship to time. We're not here for that long. It

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Speaker 3: goes by like this, And while I may live a

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Speaker 3: little closer to that truth, it's the case for all

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Speaker 3: of us, and you have to ask yourself those questions.

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Speaker 3: Otherwise it's too easy to be swept up in the

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Speaker 3: busyness of life and to kind of tumble into your

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Speaker 3: to dos and into every day head first without actually

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Speaker 3: taking a moment to get still and to ask yourself

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Speaker 3: what it is you really want. I mean, you have

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Speaker 3: this great framing in your memoir, and I think it

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Speaker 3: was a Victor Frankel quote too.

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Speaker 1: It's just so funny that you just said that Victor

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Speaker 1: Frankel quote, because yesterday I was an interview and somebody

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Speaker 1: read that quote to me no way, and I was

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Speaker 1: being interviewed and they read that exact quote that you

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Speaker 1: just just said, and I was it's like, God, Victor

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Speaker 1: Frankel must be in the room with us, and with pleasure,

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Speaker 1: I invite him to stay.

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Speaker 2: I need a little bit more Victor Frankel in my life. Really,

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Speaker 2: that's a beautiful He has so many beautiful quotes.

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Speaker 1: And yes, everything you're saying is so beautiful, and you're

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Speaker 1: so eloquent. Like I just love your voice, Like I

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Speaker 1: just I wish you would just do voiceover for all

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Speaker 1: these books audio books, because I could listen to your

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Speaker 1: voice for a long time.

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Speaker 2: I want to ask you.

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Speaker 1: You talk in your book, your first book and then

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Speaker 1: the Book of Alchemy, and you also have the Alchemy

385
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Speaker 1: Journal that also was released recently. You talk in your

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Speaker 1: book about this time period of time in your life.

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Speaker 2: That's when you started to really journal.

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Speaker 1: You commit it to saying like I'm going to write

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Speaker 1: no matter how I feel in the hospital every day,

390
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Speaker 1: I'm going to start writing. And that's how you began,

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Speaker 1: and that's where this book came from. Right between two

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Speaker 1: kingdoms exactly. And so I think when you make a

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Speaker 1: commitment like that. When I started reading your book, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this

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Speaker 1: hundred commitment, because the Book of Alchemy is about committing

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Speaker 1: to journaling for one hundred days, and then it's a series.

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Speaker 1: You talk a lot about why you know in the

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Speaker 1: beginning of the book, about why you started journaling, how

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Speaker 1: you started journaling, what it's given to you, and then

400
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Speaker 1: you there's lots of prompts from lots of famous authors

401
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Speaker 1: about why they journal and what their prompts are, which

402
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,399
Speaker 1: are beautiful because it really gives you an avenue to

403
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Speaker 1: really pick your own lane and figure out how to

404
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,480
Speaker 1: give back to yourself in a meaningful way. I think

405
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,720
Speaker 1: when you talk about something like journaling, and I love

406
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Speaker 1: what you said, because this has been my never ending question.

407
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Speaker 1: Can you write it or do I mean, can you

408
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:41,399
Speaker 1: type it into your phone? Or do you have to

409
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Speaker 1: write it? And you talk about how important it is

410
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Speaker 1: to you personally to write it, to feel the pen

411
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Speaker 1: in your hand, and to and there's even a suggestion

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Speaker 1: there to write with your non dominant hand, which I

413
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Speaker 1: thought was like, oh wow, what an interesting way, because

414
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Speaker 1: then you're.

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Speaker 2: Really out of your head.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're really trying to like write with the

417
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Speaker 1: hand that's non dominant, and like that's an interesting way

418
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Speaker 1: to get out. But you could also paint, you could out.

419
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Speaker 1: There's so many beautiful suggestions in this book. So talk

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Speaker 1: to me a little bit about the impact that you

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Speaker 1: felt from actually, and I know you've taught this in

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Speaker 1: your classes, the impact that you felt personally after completing

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Speaker 1: like one hundred days of doing this.

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Speaker 3: So I am someone who is really bad at being consistent.

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Speaker 3: I feel like you're different. You're probably someone who wakes

426
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Speaker 3: up and works out every day. I have never been

427
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Speaker 3: that person. I am the person who like starts not

428
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Speaker 3: just strong, but like in an extreme way for about

429
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,919
Speaker 3: two to three weeks. Then I drop off. Then I

430
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,400
Speaker 3: never do it again. And that was true of journaling

431
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Speaker 3: before this period. Like I was the person who would like,

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Speaker 3: buy a beautiful journal with the intention of filling it

433
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Speaker 3: out right in the first couple of pages, stop, then

434
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Speaker 3: buy a new journal because that journal was ruined and

435
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Speaker 3: proof of my failure, and start all over again. And

436
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 3: so I really liked the one hundred day project, which

437
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 3: came at the suggestion of a friend when I was

438
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 3: in that first summer of just being in such a

439
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 3: low down place, Michael Michael Broot, Yeah, okay, and I

440
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 3: liked it. I was hesitant about it because I didn't

441
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 3: think I could actually get through the hundred days, and

442
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 3: I didn't need further proof of failure. So I knew

443
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 3: I had to keep the bar really low, and I

444
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 3: decided I was going to write every day. But it

445
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 3: didn't matter what it was. It could be five pages,

446
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 3: it could be one word, it could be a doodle,

447
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,119
Speaker 3: it could be a mark in the margins, but that

448
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 3: I was going to do it every day, and I

449
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 3: needed that accountability of doing it with friends and family.

450
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 3: But what was interesting in the course of doing it

451
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 3: every single day was that, of course there were days

452
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,199
Speaker 3: where I felt like I had nothing to say, but

453
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,959
Speaker 3: often it was especially on those days where if I

454
00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 3: pushed through that resistance, I realized it was when I

455
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,879
Speaker 3: needed it most. And so at the end of that

456
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 3: one hundred day project, I had a body of work.

457
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 3: And it's kind of amazing when you do one tiny

458
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,959
Speaker 3: thing every day, the way in which it can accrue

459
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 3: and not only felt the satisfaction of having completed it.

460
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 3: But what it showed me was that within these very

461
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:29,719
Speaker 3: constrained circumstances that I found myself in, there was actually

462
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 3: a lot I could be doing right there from my bed.

463
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 3: I got really inspired by the long lineage of artists

464
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 3: and writers and musicians who found themselves bedridden for one

465
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 3: reason or another. Free to Callo is a famous one who,

466
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,920
Speaker 3: when she got into an accident and found herself bedridden,

467
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 3: started painting these self portraits that ended up making her

468
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 3: one of the most famous artists of all time. But

469
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 3: what it also made me realize was that I had

470
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 3: always loved to write. I knew this, I didn't quite

471
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 3: know that it could be a career. But I think

472
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 3: in that fallow period where I was just doing something

473
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:17,360
Speaker 3: for myself for the first time, I was following the

474
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 3: thread of my curiosity and my intuition without any expectation

475
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 3: of it going somewhere or becoming something, And that ended

476
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 3: up leading me to the thing that I not only

477
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 3: wanted to do, but could do. And so that the

478
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 3: source material of that journal became my first ever writing gig,

479
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 3: my first time being published, which was this New York

480
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 3: Times column and video series called Life Interrupted and that's

481
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 3: a lesson I've learned again and again as someone who

482
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 3: likes to be busy, who likes to constantly fill my

483
00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 3: days to the brim, that I need to schedule unstructured

484
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 3: time to do things for myself just because I'm interested

485
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,159
Speaker 3: in them, but to do them with consistency, or to

486
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 3: do nothing at all, And that often the best ideas

487
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 3: happened when you get quiet enough to notice what you're

488
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 3: thinking or feeling or what's happening around you.

489
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 2: And your parents did this with you, My parents did

490
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 2: this with me.

491
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 3: My mom painted a tile every day, she's a visual artist,

492
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 3: and she assembled it into a shield and hung it

493
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 3: above my bed and told me it had protective powers.

494
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 3: And my dad, who grew up in the south of Tunisia,

495
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 3: who rarely talks about his childhood, decided to write one

496
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,439
Speaker 3: hundred and one in a nod to one thousand and

497
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:48,719
Speaker 3: one Arabian Nights, childhood memories, and he ended up compiling

498
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 3: them into a little stapled booklet from my brother and me,

499
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 3: and so it was like this really beautiful project. And

500
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 3: I've done many of them since, especially I think in

501
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 3: periods where I feel profoundly stuck and my impulse is

502
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 3: to just like force myself through it and muscle through.

503
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 3: What it's taught me is that there's like a lot

504
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 3: of interesting stuff to learn in the stuck place, and

505
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 3: it's not actually the moment to force yourself forward, but

506
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 3: to maybe sit in the uncertainty and to excavate whatever

507
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 3: is coming.

508
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 1: Up, Yeah, and to lean into that discomfort in a sense, right,

509
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 1: to lean into the resistance of the moment.

510
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 5: You know.

511
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 1: I think we live in a world now where we

512
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,640
Speaker 1: want instant results from things. Also, so we think, oh,

513
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: we're going to meditate for three days and if it

514
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: doesn't work, it doesn't work, it's over.

515
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 2: It's like, well, that's not really how it works exactly.

516
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 3: You know.

517
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: It's a cumulative effect, and I think what you're talking

518
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 1: about it also is accumulative.

519
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think journaling just like anything else. It's like

520
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 3: going to the gym. You can't just go five times

521
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 3: and reap the rewards. It's a muscle you have to build,

522
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,120
Speaker 3: and you have to push yourself through the period of resistance,

523
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 3: through the period of exhaustion, and then you start to

524
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 3: reap its rewards.

525
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 2: It's so beautiful, it really is. It's so inspiring.

526
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 1: I just want to, Like, I mean, your parents must

527
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 1: be so grateful to have this experience with you, you know, Like,

528
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: what a beautiful experience to share with both of your parents,

529
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: What a beautiful project to share.

530
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 2: Even though the circumstances weren't beautiful, It is beautiful.

531
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: You made something that could have been ugly and hard

532
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: to think about into a beautiful experience.

533
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 2: Yeah.

534
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 3: And I think it's you know, it's why I'm obsessed

535
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 3: with alchemy, this idea of transforming something base or worthless

536
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 3: like lead, into something precious like gold. And I think,

537
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 3: especially in a moment of upheaval, there's an invitation to

538
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 3: do that. But for us as a family, it was

539
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 3: really transformative. I grew up and pull yourself up by

540
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 3: the bootstraps, have tough skin household. Both my parents are immigrants.

541
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 2: Your dad's too Nisian, and your mom's Swiss.

542
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 3: My mom's Swiss, exactly. And when we first went through this,

543
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 3: you know, the impulse was to be stoic, was to

544
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 3: put on a brave face for each other, was to

545
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 3: wait until we were alone to cry individually. And I'm

546
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 3: no longer a proponent of tough skin. What I realized

547
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 3: through that experience not just myself, but as a family,

548
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 3: was that we wanted to have tender skin. We wanted

549
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 3: to feel the things that were happening to us, the heartbreak,

550
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 3: the joy, the funny moments, because there's a lot of

551
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 3: things might sound strange to say that are funny about

552
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 3: having cancer that emerge.

553
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 2: I believe that, yeah.

554
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, And more than feeling them, we wanted to be

555
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 3: able to share them together, to not just put on

556
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 3: our brave faces and to privately deal with our fears

557
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 3: and our grief, but to talk about it because it's

558
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 3: such a missed opportunity, not just for supporting each other,

559
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 3: but for a depth of intimacy that I think when

560
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 3: we're all trying to be tough, when we're all trying

561
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 3: to be brave, gets lost.

562
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean it's fascinating to think of.

563
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: It's almost kind of like, you know, you want all

564
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: the families that are unable to communicate healthfully, which is

565
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 1: basically every family, sure totally whatever our dynamics are, they're off.

566
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 1: You know, Like if you have a great, fun family,

567
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: that's great, but there's something off. I was thinking about

568
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: this family that I admire so much, like they have

569
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: so many siblings and It's just joyful every.

570
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 2: Time you go over there.

571
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:47,959
Speaker 1: And then I once went on vacation with them and

572
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: I realized how fucked up their family was, Like everyone

573
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: was fighting, it was crazy chaos, and I was like,

574
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: oh god, this is everything you know you always look

575
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: and you're like, but to go through an experience like

576
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: where someone's you know, life is on the line with

577
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: as a family, and to actually level up to that

578
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: experience is what you're describing, and it yields such beauty

579
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: and such a great result. And then to top it off,

580
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: I know you you were in a relationship when that happened,

581
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: when you were, you know, very sick, and that went

582
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 1: on for like was it four years?

583
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 3: Four years?

584
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: And then your relationship ended, and then you met John,

585
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: who you already knew from band camp?

586
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 3: Is that right when we were teenagers? Yeah?

587
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: Right?

588
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 2: And so you guys re how did you guys reconnect? Again?

589
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 3: We reconnected not long after I got out of treatment

590
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 3: and that big heartbreak and I was in a place

591
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 3: and frankly, for as long as I can remember, I

592
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 3: always thought to myself, like, I am not someone who's

593
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 3: built for long term relationships, and I thought to myself,

594
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 3: I will either have no husband or I will have

595
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 3: ten husbands.

596
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 2: That's like exactly how I feel.

597
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 3: And so when I met John, I was like, not

598
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 3: only is this bad timing, I'm not ready for this.

599
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 3: I'm still sobbing every single day over this breakup that

600
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 3: I've gone through. I'm a wreck physically. But I also

601
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 3: loved John because he was my friend, someone i'd known

602
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 3: for a long time, and I certainly didn't want to

603
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 3: put him through my chaos. And then there were other

604
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 3: things too. You know, I was infertile, I was going

605
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 3: through metopause. How when do you bring that up when

606
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 3: you're dating someone new, Like at what point? All of

607
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 3: it just sounded like a bad idea to me. And

608
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 3: John is someone who, for as long as I've known him,

609
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 3: has been unlike anyone. But he was so good about it.

610
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 3: Like he'd come in and into my apartment and I'd

611
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 3: be crying over in my ex, and he would say,

612
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 3: of course you're crying over your ex. Not only were

613
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 3: you together for as long as you were, but you

614
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 3: lived through something so intense and so hard. It would

615
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 3: be weird if you weren't crying for your ex. And

616
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 3: it takes a particular kind of man to say that,

617
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 3: to not feel threatened by it, to give you the

618
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 3: space to grieve and to move forward. But even so,

619
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 3: you know, we were together ten eleven years before we

620
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 3: got married, and I think John and this relationship, this

621
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 3: marriage that we now have has surprised me in every way.

622
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you must think of that as alchemy.

623
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 3: It is alchemy, certainly my own personal alchemy when it

624
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 3: comes to my understanding of myself and relationships. But I

625
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 3: think any relationship requires acts of alchemy.

626
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and to have I mean, he's such a huge

627
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 1: He's got magic all around him. You know, you just

628
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: see him do his thing on stage or even when

629
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: he's talking, Like everything he does has just this kind

630
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: of energy that is very unique. And it's easy to

631
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 1: see that you know about him, and I can see

632
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 1: that about you as well. So for those kind of

633
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: and they're not the same kind of energy. So for

634
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: those two energies to come together is alchemy. And yes,

635
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,240
Speaker 1: it's true for all couples. But there's a certain magic

636
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: surrounding you. I mean, I don't want to put that

637
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 1: on you, but I think you buzz feel that way too.

638
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 1: To have met someone like that at the time in

639
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 1: your life and to have it be so have someone

640
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 1: that is such an understanding person, that is so gracious

641
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 1: and is you know, not a lot of people would

642
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: be understanding of watching another person cry about their relationship

643
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: that ended when you're entering into a new one.

644
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 3: Totally.

645
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: Not a lot of people know how to give that

646
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 1: space or are secure enough to be able to give

647
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 1: that space.

648
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 2: Certainly not a lot of men.

649
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,280
Speaker 3: And I remember, you know, like maybe three weeks into dating,

650
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 3: I brought up the infertility piece and he said to me,

651
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 3: there are many ways to make a family. Let me

652
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 3: back up and just say, for someone who is terrified

653
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 3: of marriage and had very mixed feelings about it, the

654
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 3: first week we started dating, he said to me, what

655
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 3: are your intentions, because just so you know, I'm not

656
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 3: interested in dating unless there's a possibility of it leading

657
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 3: to marriage, which was actually so endearing to hear, you know,

658
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 3: a man in his twenties say, and also a little scary.

659
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 3: But about two or three weeks in when I brought

660
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 3: up the infertility piece, he said to me, there are

661
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 3: many ways to have a family, And he said, if

662
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 3: we end up together, maybe that'll look like having kids.

663
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 3: Maybe it'll look like fostering or adopting, or maybe it

664
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 3: won't and maybe we'll just be like the world's best

665
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:44,839
Speaker 3: aunties and uncles or godparents for our friend's kids. So

666
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,279
Speaker 3: he got it. And that's not to say, you know,

667
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 3: it was all magic the whole way through. But I

668
00:35:52,840 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 3: think he's someone who puts in the work, who understands

669
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 3: that people have their ups and downs, that we evolve

670
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 3: and grow, and who is there for every step of

671
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 3: it and there to put in the work to make

672
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 3: it work.

673
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 1: Why were you so scared of marriage, hm, because your

674
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,280
Speaker 1: parents seem like they have a strong union.

675
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 2: Like, where does it come from? Do you think?

676
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 3: Wow? I mean, this is probably a much bigger conversation

677
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 3: that can be contained in this time that we're spending together.

678
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 6: You know.

679
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 3: I think, prior to getting sick, was a bit of

680
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 3: a health raiser. My dad used to always say, I

681
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,959
Speaker 3: pity any man who falls in love with Suleika. And

682
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 3: I think I just thought I was someone who there

683
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 3: were a lot of things I wanted to do. I

684
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 3: was someone who went through a lot of phases, and

685
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 3: for whatever reason, maybe based on early dating experiences, what

686
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 3: I took to be a fact was that the longer

687
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 3: you are in a relationship with someone, the harder things get,

688
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 3: the more distance that grows, the more incompatibilities that reveal themselves.

689
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,760
Speaker 3: And I didn't see myself wanting to or being able

690
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 3: to sustain that over the course of an entire life.

691
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 3: You know, I grew up with a mom who was

692
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 3: very much a feminist, who never wanted to get married,

693
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 3: who was very focused on her career, who ended up,

694
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 3: you know, I was a surprise, and who ended up,

695
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 3: much to her surprise, loving being a mother. But my

696
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 3: whole life would say things to me like, focus on

697
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 3: your career. Only have a kid if and when you've

698
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 3: established your career and have enough momentum to sustain that,

699
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 3: be financially independent, never be dependent on a man like

700
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 3: I think there were a lot of important things that

701
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 3: she was passing on to me, but that for whatever reason,

702
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 3: especially as someone who had a lot of ambitions and

703
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 3: a lot of big dreams, felt like the math of

704
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,280
Speaker 3: it didn't work. How to do that and then also

705
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 3: how to be a wife or maybe a mother. I

706
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 3: also happened to graduate the year that Anne Marie Slaughter

707
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 3: wrote that essay about can Women Have It All? And

708
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 3: her conclusion at the end of it was no. You know,

709
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 3: women of our generation were told you can go to college,

710
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 3: you can have the big career, and you can have

711
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 3: the family, but the question of how to make that

712
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 3: all work and the math of it was never clearly

713
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 3: explained to most of us.

714
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, And I do think it possible, but it's

715
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 1: it's like a future idea, you know, when we figure

716
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 1: out our roles, our gender roles in a more equal way,

717
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 1: then that.

718
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 2: Will be possible. But it is. I don't think it's impossible.

719
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 1: I just think it's not as easily attainable as it

720
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 1: will be in the future.

721
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,359
Speaker 3: Why do you think you thought you were someone who

722
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 3: would either have no husbands or ten.

723
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 2: For similar reasons to what you're describing.

724
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: I was a hell raiser and I am kind of

725
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 1: still like you seem like that's my next question for you,

726
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 1: and and I want to answer your question, but like, do.

727
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,240
Speaker 2: You still feel like a hell raiser?

728
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 3: Definitely? Yes, okay, and an intentionally directed way. I'm no

729
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 3: longer a chaos hell raiser in every area of my life.

730
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, so I feel that way too, Like there

731
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 1: has been an evolution and while I haven't been through

732
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 1: anything like what you've been through.

733
00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 2: I've had my own kind of growth.

734
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 1: Just you know, things that make you go, oh, like

735
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,760
Speaker 1: I want to take all these great attributes and refine

736
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 1: them instead of having them be I don't want to

737
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 1: be in attack mode. I want to be in you know,

738
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 1: I want to be a strong woman, and I want

739
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 1: to stand up for things and make sure that people

740
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 1: know I'm reliable, dependable, consistent, you know, like those attributes

741
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 1: are meaningful to me.

742
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:25,760
Speaker 2: But with regard to.

743
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 1: A husband, I just always felt like that was an

744
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 1: antiquated idea, maybe like it's too old fashioned, like there's

745
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: got to be a new iteration of marriage or And

746
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 1: I also had this fantasy in my life of just

747
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 1: having lots of lovers, like I just always and I

748
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 1: still do.

749
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 2: I'm always like I just want lovers, you know.

750
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:49,240
Speaker 1: I just want to be this kind of bond yvon

751
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 1: that just goes around the world, you know. And now

752
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 1: I'm seeing someone, so I'm in a monogamous relationship as

753
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: we speak. But I still have these ideas and I

754
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 1: still have these kind of and I'm always willing to

755
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 1: examine them further and actually, Okay, maybe this relationship changes you,

756
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 1: or maybe this circumstance changes you. I'm not locked and

757
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: loaded like I thought I was when I was younger,

758
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 1: and I think that's something that you attain as you

759
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: become older. You start to realize that everything is malleable

760
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 1: and nothing is fixed.

761
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 3: I think that was my big unlock as well. Like

762
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 3: much like any creative process, I think a relationship is

763
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 3: something you co create. It doesn't have to look like

764
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 3: the thing that your parents had or what people tell

765
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 3: you a relationship should look like. I'm someone who loves

766
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,359
Speaker 3: to spend time alone. I love to spend time with

767
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,359
Speaker 3: my friends, and we've built a kind of life that

768
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:50,320
Speaker 3: accommodates that. You know, when John goes on tour, people

769
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 3: will often say to me, is that hard for you?

770
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 3: And I'm like, no, I love it. I love to

771
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 3: miss him, you know. I love when he's home, but

772
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 3: I also love having my own time. I get to

773
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 3: have my girlfriends come and stay with me for two weeks,

774
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 3: which I do. Also when he's there, I get to

775
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 3: just be with myself and my dogs and go deep

776
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 3: into a project and vice versa. When I'm on the road,

777
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 3: he's happy too. And there's something really beautiful about realizing

778
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 3: you get to be the architect of your relationship, even

779
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 3: if it looks like nothing like anyone else's relationship, and

780
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 3: you figure out the thing that works for you.

781
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 1: And congratulations on your new chihuahuas. Oh my god, I

782
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,760
Speaker 1: saw yesterday that you posted on Instagram. How many chihuahuas

783
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 1: did you end up getting too, or Chelsea? It looked

784
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,240
Speaker 1: like there were about eight chihuahuas in that picture, okay pictures,

785
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 1: And I was like, I hope they didn't get all

786
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:46,280
Speaker 1: those dogs.

787
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 3: So the love of my life was a little terrier

788
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 3: rescue I got at twenty two, who died four years ago.

789
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 3: And after that I was like, I can't go through

790
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 3: this again. I don't think I can ever have a

791
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 3: dog again. Fast forward, we've gotten one dog every single

792
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,919
Speaker 3: year since when you go to La Well, the first

793
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 3: two were not in La. So two years ago we

794
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 3: went to the Oscars. Our documentary American Symphony was nominated,

795
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 3: and normal.

796
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 2: People want a grammyfore that also we did.

797
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,280
Speaker 3: Normal people when they're traveling somewhere look up like cool

798
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 3: bars to go to great restaurants. I always go on

799
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 3: pet Finder on the flight over. I see this senior toothless,

800
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 3: hairless dog that's seven pounds named Lentil, and without consulting John,

801
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 3: without consulting anyone, I filled out the application on a

802
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 3: whim and when I landed the application had been accepted,

803
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:49,919
Speaker 3: and I was too scared to tell John what I'd done.

804
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 3: So I woke up the next morning ubered to go

805
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 3: pick up this dog, brought it back to the hotel

806
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,439
Speaker 3: and John woke up and he was like what. First

807
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 3: of all, what is this? Is this a dog? Which

808
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 3: is it a bat?

809
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 6: Like?

810
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 3: Is it a mirracat? And also why are it here?

811
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 3: And I was like, it's fine, We're just fostering. And

812
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 3: he was like during Oscars weekend when we have so

813
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 3: much to do, and I was like, yes, it's all,

814
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,280
Speaker 3: It's all good. And a few hours later, a TSA

815
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 3: approved dog carrier arrived at our door and he was like,

816
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 3: and what is this? And I was like, just in

817
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 3: case anyway, I've decided this is my tradition and that

818
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 3: it's happened once. And so when we were back and

819
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 3: the Oscars. At the Oscars, I was joking about how

820
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 3: maybe I should get, you know, another dog, and the

821
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 3: joke was on me because we ended up coming home

822
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 3: to Senior toothless Chuabas. So we currently have five dogs

823
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 3: in our house.

824
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 2: Where did the other two come from? Oh?

825
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:51,919
Speaker 1: This has happened every year. Yeah, oh so five? Okay,

826
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:53,280
Speaker 1: so you have okay.

827
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, the math is getting complicated.

828
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 2: Oh okay, here's a question.

829
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: When you're going to all these events, are you bringing

830
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:01,359
Speaker 1: the chihuahu with you the rescue or the fall as

831
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 1: a foster when you're fostering, or you leave it in

832
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 1: the hotel room.

833
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 3: I leave it in the hotel room. Might get a

834
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,719
Speaker 3: dog sitter, Oh you do. I briefly considered skipping all

835
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 3: of the Oscar events because the dogs were arriving that

836
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 3: day and I was very excited to meet them. I

837
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 3: think I'm veering dangerously close to crazy dog lady territory.

838
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 3: But to me, like I don't.

839
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 1: Know, there's a lot of joy coming home to a

840
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 1: group of dogs. Really, I have fantasized about this. I

841
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,359
Speaker 1: have fantasies of my own about this, which my type

842
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: as a chow chow.

843
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 2: Your type is a chiuoha.

844
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,319
Speaker 1: I want to have five chow chows coming at me

845
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 1: when I come home. But it's really I'm just never home,

846
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 1: so that would just it's not ideal. But I'm going

847
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:45,720
Speaker 1: to make that happen at some point in my life.

848
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 1: I want a farm, you know what. I just want

849
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 1: them all playing with each other all day, being friends,

850
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 1: hanging out, you know, a big backyard, which I have. So,

851
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess I could do it, but I

852
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 1: mean it is I love. I like that kind of

853
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 1: lack of control.

854
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 3: And I'm gonna say on the record, my type is

855
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,399
Speaker 3: not a Chihuahua. If it's never a small dog person, Oh,

856
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 3: I thought we have a lab. We have a medium

857
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 3: sized dog. And then what I will say, my most

858
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 3: recent type is is a baby grandma.

859
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 2: I thought you, guys, I thought the chihua was your

860
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 2: rest today? Am I miss speaking?

861
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 3: No? The most recent or to chuah?

862
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 1: Okay?

863
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 2: Out of five two fifths?

864
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, okay, okay.

865
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 2: Oh, so you do have a lab?

866
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 3: We have?

867
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 2: And what are the other two?

868
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,840
Speaker 3: The other one's a medium sized mut The third is

869
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:35,800
Speaker 3: a hairless Mexican dog.

870
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 2: The first one the og.

871
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 3: The yeah, the og oscar rescue.

872
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:43,400
Speaker 2: So who walks all these dogs? Do you walk all

873
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:43,759
Speaker 2: the dogs?

874
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 3: I walk the dogs. But I also feel like we're

875
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:48,840
Speaker 3: nearing a point where we may need to hire a

876
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 3: dog nanny.

877
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 1: A third party right, Yeah, that's inspiring.

878
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 2: I like that. I like that. That's how you spend

879
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 2: your oscar weekend.

880
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 3: I do. It's like, you know, those weekends from your

881
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 3: are kind of stressful. I'm like an introverted extrovert. I

882
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 3: like a small group hang but after a couple of

883
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 3: hours of small talk, I start to go blink behind

884
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 3: the eyes. I get anxious. And those things are anxiety inducing,

885
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 3: but they're also not. It's like it feels high stakes,

886
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 3: but it's not like we're doing, you know, pediatric brain surgery.

887
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:27,839
Speaker 3: No one's life is on the line. It's like your

888
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 3: shoes don't fit or whatever. Right, and so I like

889
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,840
Speaker 3: when my brain is hijacked by something other than that,

890
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 3: preferably yeah, a senior dog who needs some.

891
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 2: Senior dog rescue.

892
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: Okay, on that note, we're going to be right back

893
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:44,720
Speaker 1: with Seleka Jawad.

894
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 2: There we go, fanatically got it?

895
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:47,799
Speaker 6: Yeah?

896
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 2: Okay, great? Did I get it?

897
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:49,839
Speaker 3: You got it?

898
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 2: Okay? Great?

899
00:47:54,640 --> 00:48:00,040
Speaker 1: I were back with Seleka Jawad Jawad. Tell me we

900
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 1: had to say.

901
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 3: Jawad like a thought, but not really Sleaka Jawad Jawad.

902
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. I have problems with fanatics and names.

903
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:10,399
Speaker 3: That's Okay, I have four vowels in my life.

904
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it is a beautiful name if

905
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 2: you get it right.

906
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 1: Sean calls it a vowel salad. Okay, we have callers

907
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 1: calling in for advice. Ready for this, Jo Catherine, What

908
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:22,800
Speaker 1: do we have in store for Seleka today?

909
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:25,760
Speaker 4: Well, let's start with our caller today.

910
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 3: This is Tara, she says.

911
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 4: Dear Chelsea, my husband and I have been together for

912
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 4: five years and married for one. This past year has

913
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:38,839
Speaker 4: been incredibly difficult. He underwent several surgeries, numerous medical appointments,

914
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 4: and er visits. We also had to move in the

915
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:45,280
Speaker 4: middle of it all, I handled everything, planning the move, packing,

916
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,799
Speaker 4: coordinating movers, while also managing his medical care. As a

917
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,320
Speaker 4: medical social worker. I was the one scheduling appointments, contacting

918
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 4: insurance companies, and making sure his care stayed on track.

919
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 4: All of this while working full time, maintaining the household,

920
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:01,760
Speaker 4: caring for our two dogs, and managing the financial responsibilities.

921
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 4: This year took a significant toll on me mentally and physically.

922
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 4: It felt like I was in constant survival mode. His

923
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 4: last surgery was in October of last year, and he

924
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 4: returned to work in January. Now that life has returned

925
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 4: to some sense of normalcy, a new challenge has surfaced

926
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 4: in our relationship, our intimacy. While he was sick, our

927
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 4: sex life was understandably limited. Now that he's feeling better,

928
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 4: there's a lot of pressure from him to have sex frequently.

929
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 4: He expresses that sex is more than physical for him.

930
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 4: It's how he connects and feels valued, and I understand

931
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 4: that perspective. However, at forty five, my sex drive is

932
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 4: not the same. We're currently intimate two to three times

933
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,319
Speaker 4: a week, but this isn't enough for him. He also

934
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 4: wants more variety, more experimentation, lingerie, use of toys. It

935
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 4: feels like the expectations keep increasing and I struggle to

936
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 4: keep up. At the same time, I feel overwhelmed. At home,

937
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:52,320
Speaker 4: I handle the majority of the household responsibilities, cleaning, laundry,

938
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,879
Speaker 4: caring for the dogs, managing daily tasks. He does cook,

939
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 4: which I appreciate, but beyond that, I carry most of

940
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:00,319
Speaker 4: the load. It's difficult to feel emotionally or physically open

941
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 4: when I feel exhausted and unsupported. I am trying. I've

942
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 4: made efforts to initiate more intimacy and to wear things

943
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 4: that make him feel desired, even when I don't particularly

944
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 4: enjoy them. I really value your guidance on how we

945
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 4: can approach this in a healthier way.

946
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 3: Tara O, Hi, Tara Hell.

947
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 1: We have a special guest today, Seleka Juwad, who actually

948
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 1: has been through many similar things that you've mentioned.

949
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 2: First of all, thank you for calling in.

950
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 1: And Wow, you've really been through a lot and you've

951
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 1: held it together and I can totally understand why you

952
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 1: feel you're in a state of overwhelm.

953
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 6: Definitely, Yes, it's been really hard.

954
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Do you have someone that you're talking to? Do

955
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 2: you have a therapist?

956
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:45,839
Speaker 1: Yes?

957
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:48,239
Speaker 6: I talked to my therapists every two weeks and have

958
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 6: a great support of friends and the spiritual practice.

959
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 5: Right.

960
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 3: Good.

961
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 1: Great, So you're already firing on a lot of cylinders,

962
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 1: so that's important. I'm going to say a couple things,

963
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 1: and then obviously I want you to jump into with

964
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 1: any feedback you think might be helpful. I think you

965
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 1: know this is a really difficult situation and not something

966
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 1: that so many people can relate to. Not everybody experiences

967
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:12,439
Speaker 1: these things, but you know, you're like you're a rock

968
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 1: star for being able to support him in this way

969
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 1: during this time, so you know, make sure you're telling

970
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 1: yourself that every day. And while that doesn't give you

971
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,799
Speaker 1: permission to like control the dynamic of the relationship, it

972
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 1: does give you a sense of value and purpose independent

973
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: from everything else in your life. So just like kudos

974
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 1: to you for like staying the course and being like

975
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:38,320
Speaker 1: a rock for somebody, because that's really important, and everyone

976
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:40,880
Speaker 1: in his situation are going through something similar needs that

977
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:44,279
Speaker 1: with regard like to sex and stuff. And I mean,

978
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 1: it does sound like you guys have to have a

979
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 1: conversation with a third party to kind of, you know,

980
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 1: balance everything out.

981
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 2: It does.

982
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 1: It seems a little bit demanding from your ass from

983
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 1: your side of things, a little demanding and a little

984
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:00,959
Speaker 1: bit you're not required to deliver on all of those

985
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:02,840
Speaker 1: fronts at all the times. You know, you have a

986
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:05,239
Speaker 1: lot on your shoulders, and so I feel like there

987
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 1: is an avenue for him to gain a better understanding

988
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 1: of everything that this has had on you. Like this

989
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:11,759
Speaker 1: kind of not I don't want to say onus because

990
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 1: it has a negative connotation, but all of these responsibilities

991
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:16,799
Speaker 1: have taken a toll on you in a way that

992
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 1: he needs to have probably a little bit at a

993
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:22,360
Speaker 1: better understanding of So I guess my next question is,

994
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 1: do you guys have a part of a therapist that

995
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 1: you speak to or does he have one that you

996
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 1: speak to together or does he have one?

997
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 6: No, he doesn't have one. And I've been looking into

998
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:37,800
Speaker 6: trying to find a male therapist for us as a couple,

999
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 6: because I feel like a lot of times if a

1000
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 6: male tells him like, your expectations are way too high,

1001
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:47,360
Speaker 6: he might be able to be more open to it.

1002
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:51,840
Speaker 6: If it's another female therapist saying you're asking for too much,

1003
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 6: so that would be our next step.

1004
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 5: But it's been hard, Like I feel the barkeets I'm

1005
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 5: getting up. It's not only we don't have and now

1006
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 5: so now we have enough time, but then he's the

1007
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:06,839
Speaker 5: same positions or can we get a toy or can

1008
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 5: we do something else? And so I feel like I'm

1009
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:14,360
Speaker 5: constantly trying to keep up with what's next in order

1010
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 5: for him to be one hundred percent happy with our

1011
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 5: sex lie right.

1012
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 1: And I also think that like he's probably feeling great

1013
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 1: for the first time in a long time, and really

1014
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:25,719
Speaker 1: like this is a way of expression and a way

1015
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 1: to make him feel better, and so that's totally understandable

1016
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 1: as well. But I think a good therapist will be

1017
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:33,760
Speaker 1: able to end You're right to get a male therapist,

1018
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:36,759
Speaker 1: I think because there's there's so many emotional things that

1019
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:40,799
Speaker 1: go along with this lake and not just the sexual component, right, Like,

1020
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:43,760
Speaker 1: he has to have an understanding of everything you've been through.

1021
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:49,440
Speaker 3: I just want to first acknowledge how much you've been carrying.

1022
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 3: Caregiver burnout is very real and the someone who is

1023
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 3: in the patient's chair, so much of the focus often

1024
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:02,439
Speaker 3: is on the patient, but you're living alongside it too,

1025
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 3: And I know, both for me but also for my

1026
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 3: caregivers in a way, it was only once the crisis

1027
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:14,320
Speaker 3: was past us that they were actually able to take

1028
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:21,239
Speaker 3: inventory of what had happened, of the exhaustion of the

1029
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:27,560
Speaker 3: cumulative traumas, And so I couldn't agree more with Chelsea.

1030
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 3: I love couple therapy. We think of it as car

1031
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:37,360
Speaker 3: maintenance in my marriage, and I think often it's sometimes

1032
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 3: people think, oh, couple therapy is something you do when

1033
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 3: you're on the verge of breaking up, But it's something

1034
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 3: I think that's good to start before its things reach

1035
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 3: an inflection point. The other thing I'll say is sometimes

1036
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 3: having these conversations as hard, and right now you're doing

1037
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:57,839
Speaker 3: not just a lot of labor, but also a lot

1038
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:02,360
Speaker 3: of invisible emtional labor, and it can be hard to

1039
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 3: talk about that in a way where it doesn't feel

1040
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:08,880
Speaker 3: like you're saying, look at all the things that I

1041
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:11,400
Speaker 3: do for you, and someone responds with, but look at

1042
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 3: all the things that I do for you. And so

1043
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:18,400
Speaker 3: my husband John, you know, years ago, in the early

1044
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 3: years of our relationship, when we were navigating, you know,

1045
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:27,239
Speaker 3: feeling like we were both overwhelmed, had this idea that

1046
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:31,239
Speaker 3: instead of writing in a journal individually, which we both do,

1047
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 3: we would start writing each other letters, because sometimes the

1048
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:41,760
Speaker 3: thing you say in conversation makes it difficult to actually

1049
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:44,279
Speaker 3: get to the there there you end up in a

1050
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:47,280
Speaker 3: back and forth and everyone's interrupting each other or queuing

1051
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 3: up their next thought. And to my surprise, like I

1052
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 3: would write this letter to John or do it in

1053
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:57,880
Speaker 3: a voice note, and I didn't even really know what

1054
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:01,319
Speaker 3: I was feeling until I had quiet to actually say

1055
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:04,600
Speaker 3: it myself, and then we'd take a photo, I text

1056
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:06,959
Speaker 3: the letter to him and he would write one back.

1057
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 3: But I think the communication piece here is so important

1058
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:17,839
Speaker 3: and I'm curious if he has a sense of how

1059
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 3: much you're carrying and how much of that you share

1060
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 3: with him.

1061
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 6: I think he did have a sense because he was

1062
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:27,960
Speaker 6: encouraged me to tun time off, and I took time off.

1063
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:31,319
Speaker 6: Finally I went away for a whole week and he

1064
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 6: was great. So he did have a sense. But then

1065
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:38,240
Speaker 6: when it comes to sex, I think that he gets blinded.

1066
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:41,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, I do want to also point out that, like

1067
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:44,200
Speaker 4: three times a week is above average for a.

1068
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:49,799
Speaker 2: Couple that's been I love getting a.

1069
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 4: Man involved to be like that's that's a lot, Like

1070
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:56,360
Speaker 4: that's doing great, and like yes, but you know, you

1071
00:56:56,440 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 4: might also engage him in like one of the sexiest

1072
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:02,879
Speaker 4: things that you could do for me is to help

1073
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 4: take some of this off of my plate so I

1074
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:07,239
Speaker 4: have the energy to feel sexy later in the day.

1075
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:09,320
Speaker 4: You know, if you take the dogs for a walk

1076
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:11,800
Speaker 4: and give them their dinners or whatever, you know, whatever

1077
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 4: the daily tasks are, Like, relate those two things together

1078
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 4: in a really concrete way for him, so you can

1079
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 4: be like, if you are able to take these things

1080
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 4: off my plate, there's a better chance that I will

1081
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 4: feel sexy later or like have the space in my

1082
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 4: mind body and brain for that great, But I also

1083
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 4: think it's important for men to understand that women we like,

1084
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 4: we don't always love to be pursued.

1085
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:36,800
Speaker 1: Sometimes we want to come to you and you know,

1086
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:39,400
Speaker 1: like that's something that you can say in a very gentle,

1087
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 1: loving way, like it it's not so sexy all the

1088
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:45,920
Speaker 1: time when I feel pursued all the time by you sexually,

1089
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 1: Like I want an opportunity to come to you and say, okay,

1090
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 1: you know I'm in the mood or initiate sex. Like

1091
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:55,480
Speaker 1: those are different ways of communicating things so that he

1092
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:58,000
Speaker 1: because I have a feeling, he feels like this is

1093
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:00,959
Speaker 1: his like he's feeling healthy and strong again and wants

1094
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:03,240
Speaker 1: to like kind of show his manhood off. You know,

1095
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:05,080
Speaker 1: there could be an element of that, which is why

1096
00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 1: if male therapists will be great to deal with that.

1097
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 1: But there's also gentle ways that you can communicate that

1098
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:14,240
Speaker 1: and how you're feeling because you know, as Luka said,

1099
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:17,840
Speaker 1: like you are in triage during this time and you're

1100
00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 1: just coming out of it. I mean, you're out of it,

1101
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 1: but like your body and your brain aren't always in

1102
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:27,800
Speaker 1: the same moment together, so like there is trauma involved,

1103
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:30,040
Speaker 1: Like you're you were in survival mode for a long

1104
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:32,720
Speaker 1: time and now you're just kind of like coming down.

1105
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:34,200
Speaker 2: So there's a lot to deal with there.

1106
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:36,400
Speaker 1: And so I'm so glad you're seeing a therapist and

1107
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:39,960
Speaker 1: talking to someone about it, because that stuff and getting

1108
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:44,919
Speaker 1: yourself recalibrated to these new or healthier circumstances is also

1109
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:45,600
Speaker 1: an adjustment.

1110
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 4: And if he's really into this, like exploring some kink stuff,

1111
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:51,520
Speaker 4: maybe you need to do like a dom sub thing

1112
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 4: where like you're making him Catherine.

1113
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:56,040
Speaker 2: Loves the shit, she loves it. I love it.

1114
00:58:56,720 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1115
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 4: Put on some high heel, yeah, boss him around, make

1116
00:58:59,360 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 4: him do.

1117
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:04,880
Speaker 3: The house work, be very hot for sex. Yeah, two

1118
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 3: birds with one stone, more healths on the domestic front

1119
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 3: while playing into the kink exactly exactly.

1120
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 6: I like that idea.

1121
00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:15,920
Speaker 4: All right, Tara, will you follow up with us after

1122
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:17,400
Speaker 4: you guys see a therapist together.

1123
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:18,560
Speaker 6: Yes, we'll do.

1124
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:19,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1125
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:21,160
Speaker 2: Tara, you're amazing. You're amazing.

1126
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:25,920
Speaker 1: Everything you've done rock solid. This, You're a rock solid woman.

1127
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:31,400
Speaker 6: Thank you so much. Bye bye.

1128
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:34,960
Speaker 3: All right, Well we'll wrap up with a little quickie.

1129
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's close out with a little quickie.

1130
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 4: So our wondering question today is Dear Chelsea. I'm thirty five,

1131
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:44,400
Speaker 4: and lately I've been trying to get back into journaling.

1132
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 4: But I'm having trouble writing without thinking. I have to

1133
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:49,919
Speaker 4: write as if someone is reading it. I sit down

1134
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:51,880
Speaker 4: to spill my heart onto the page, and it said,

1135
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 4: it comes out censored and dry, just a list of

1136
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 4: what happened that day, without any color. How do I

1137
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 4: get past that?

1138
00:59:57,080 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 2: Brittany, Oh, yeah, you talked about this in the book.

1139
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:02,320
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that's one of the biggest reasons people

1140
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:06,800
Speaker 3: don't journal. This is what lock boxes are for. And

1141
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:11,480
Speaker 3: you know, I had this semi traumatic experience in the

1142
01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:15,720
Speaker 3: eighth grade of leaving my journal in my bag in

1143
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 3: a gym locker room and a girl at my school

1144
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:21,840
Speaker 3: finding my journal and reading it. Oh. Now, I've always

1145
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:27,280
Speaker 3: been a very adventurous journaler, which is that I don't

1146
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 3: think of the journal as a space where you have

1147
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:33,600
Speaker 3: to necessarily write in the first person about things that

1148
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:39,600
Speaker 3: are happening. My journals were like full of fantastical stories

1149
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:47,760
Speaker 3: with aspirational, you know, female protagonists, and so in my journal, I,

1150
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:52,200
Speaker 3: you know, had written essentially a bunch of lies about boys.

1151
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:55,440
Speaker 3: I said, I kissed that. I certainly hadn't, and it

1152
01:00:55,520 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 3: was like in that blurred line between nonfiction and fantasy.

1153
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 3: And so she went around and told everyone that I

1154
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:05,640
Speaker 3: had written these things, that I was a liar, et cetera,

1155
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:09,560
Speaker 3: et cetera. I now look back at that moment and

1156
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:13,400
Speaker 3: I wish I had just owned it and said, yeah,

1157
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:16,440
Speaker 3: it's not lying. It's a journal. It's private. I get

1158
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:19,280
Speaker 3: to write whatever I want in there. I get to play,

1159
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:22,800
Speaker 3: make believe, I get to whatever. But I think it's

1160
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 3: really scary to show up as your most unedited, vulnerable

1161
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 3: self in any space, let alone and a physical object

1162
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:39,800
Speaker 3: that might fall in the wrong hands. And so my

1163
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:43,600
Speaker 3: advice to you, get a little carry on suitcase with

1164
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 3: a lock get a lock box, do whatever it is

1165
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 3: that you need to do to feel like you can

1166
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:53,920
Speaker 3: say whatever it is you need to say, write your

1167
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:56,920
Speaker 3: journal entry, and then paint over it. How do you

1168
01:01:56,920 --> 01:01:57,600
Speaker 3: feel about that?

1169
01:01:57,920 --> 01:01:59,479
Speaker 2: I totally relate to what she's saying.

1170
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:00,920
Speaker 1: And when I read it in your book, in the

1171
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:04,280
Speaker 1: Book of Alchemy, like when you talked about people's reluctance

1172
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:07,000
Speaker 1: to journal, the same thing, It's like I always kind

1173
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:10,320
Speaker 1: of even when I'm alone, like even when I get

1174
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:13,040
Speaker 1: on my knees and pray. I feel like I'm being

1175
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:16,280
Speaker 1: watched and I'm like, hopefully the person who's watching me

1176
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:19,920
Speaker 1: can help me. But I've always have this idea that

1177
01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:22,280
Speaker 1: someone will see it or watch it, so I can

1178
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:26,360
Speaker 1: totally relate to that. But in a more practical sense,

1179
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:29,280
Speaker 1: there are ways to keep privacy, you know, there are

1180
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:31,440
Speaker 1: ways to remain private. There are you know, you can

1181
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:34,400
Speaker 1: do all of these things. And I liked what you

1182
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:38,360
Speaker 1: said in the book or about you know, the idea

1183
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:40,400
Speaker 1: of tearing it up once you write it, you know,

1184
01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:43,640
Speaker 1: to kind of start with that idea to because now

1185
01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:46,040
Speaker 1: I have a gratitude journal that I write in every

1186
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:49,400
Speaker 1: morning just to write, and sometimes I think, oh, this

1187
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:51,560
Speaker 1: sounds so and I was like, it doesn't matter.

1188
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:54,360
Speaker 2: Stop that, you know, stop thinking someone's going to read this.

1189
01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:58,560
Speaker 1: And just also I kind of think about it in

1190
01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:01,400
Speaker 1: a way, so what if everybody does also?

1191
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:03,800
Speaker 2: Who cares? But that doesn't really help this person.

1192
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 1: But that's when you're asking me how I feel about that,

1193
01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 1: I kind of think like, it doesn't matter what anyone

1194
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:11,280
Speaker 1: sees that I write to myself. It doesn't it doesn't

1195
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:13,600
Speaker 1: change how I feel. It doesn't change how I am

1196
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:16,680
Speaker 1: in this world. If anything, it's more liberating to know that,

1197
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:18,800
Speaker 1: like I stand by everything I say, you.

1198
01:03:18,680 --> 01:03:22,720
Speaker 3: Know totally and that we all have the same insecurities

1199
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:27,439
Speaker 3: and fears and anks. But I think what you said

1200
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:31,200
Speaker 3: is so as to and so interesting, which is sometimes

1201
01:03:31,560 --> 01:03:34,520
Speaker 3: the deeper fear isn't that someone will read it. It's

1202
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 3: actually writing and reading what it is youth for yourself

1203
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:45,919
Speaker 3: that you want to say. It's so vulnerable to articulate

1204
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:48,520
Speaker 3: what it is that you're the truth of what you're feeling.

1205
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:50,920
Speaker 3: I'm reminded of during my first book, I had this

1206
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:53,480
Speaker 3: post it note above my desk that said, if you

1207
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:56,800
Speaker 3: want to write a good book, write what you don't

1208
01:03:56,840 --> 01:03:59,800
Speaker 3: want others to know about you. If you want to

1209
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:03,040
Speaker 3: write a great book, right what you don't want to

1210
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:07,880
Speaker 3: know about yourself. And I think journaling, when you're doing

1211
01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:13,160
Speaker 3: it deeply requires you sometimes to write things you don't

1212
01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:18,120
Speaker 3: want to know about yourself, and that feeling of being

1213
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:22,360
Speaker 3: exposed may actually not be so much about other people

1214
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:25,240
Speaker 3: at reading X or lots as you put it, practical

1215
01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:27,400
Speaker 3: ways to make sure that that doesn't happen.

1216
01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:31,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's really beautiful. I think it's also

1217
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:35,920
Speaker 1: so important to own for women, especially to own your thoughts,

1218
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:40,040
Speaker 1: Like I have a feeling that there's a big differentiation

1219
01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:43,560
Speaker 1: between as a whole men thinking about you know, what

1220
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:46,400
Speaker 1: people know about them versus women, Like we also have

1221
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:49,280
Speaker 1: to be a little bit more. We have to embrace

1222
01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:51,280
Speaker 1: ourselves a little bit more than we do. You know.

1223
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:53,880
Speaker 1: It's a little bit too critical, a little bit too judgmental.

1224
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:56,200
Speaker 1: And this has been going on for the last ten

1225
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:59,280
Speaker 1: thousand years, you know, since we turned into a patriarchy

1226
01:04:59,640 --> 01:05:03,160
Speaker 1: that are so we're scared, you know, and that's how

1227
01:05:03,160 --> 01:05:06,320
Speaker 1: we shrink. And so I think that really embracing that

1228
01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:11,000
Speaker 1: idea and really writing down the things that you're icked

1229
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:13,560
Speaker 1: out about, you know, for lack of a better term,

1230
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:16,840
Speaker 1: in this moment about yourself is like a great liberation.

1231
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:21,240
Speaker 1: Like it's really great to write down all of the

1232
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:23,720
Speaker 1: things and read them and be like, this is who

1233
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:26,240
Speaker 1: I am, and it's beautiful totally.

1234
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:32,080
Speaker 3: The poet Muriel Rikaiser has this great line she said,

1235
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:36,520
Speaker 3: what would happen if one woman told the truth about

1236
01:05:36,560 --> 01:05:40,120
Speaker 3: her life? The world would break open. I think it's

1237
01:05:40,160 --> 01:05:43,720
Speaker 3: scary to tell the truth about your life, about what

1238
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:48,560
Speaker 3: you're feeling, about what you want, especially when you're not

1239
01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 3: doing it with an audience.

1240
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:51,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exact.

1241
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:53,480
Speaker 3: Then you actually have to tell the truth.

1242
01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:55,560
Speaker 2: Yes, right, and you have to look at it.

1243
01:05:55,560 --> 01:05:58,040
Speaker 3: And then inevitably you have to do something about it.

1244
01:05:58,320 --> 01:05:59,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1245
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:03,240
Speaker 3: And so I guess, to me, what's on the other

1246
01:06:03,560 --> 01:06:10,880
Speaker 3: side of that fear maybe the thing that is needed most.

1247
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:12,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1248
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 1: Well, beautifully said, you're a beautiful person. I'm just blown

1249
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:16,200
Speaker 1: away by person.

1250
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:17,280
Speaker 2: Thank you.

1251
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:20,280
Speaker 1: But I mean, I just really, I'm so moved by

1252
01:06:20,280 --> 01:06:21,960
Speaker 1: your story. I'm so moved by your life. I'm so

1253
01:06:22,040 --> 01:06:24,240
Speaker 1: happy that you're Are you healthy.

1254
01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:24,880
Speaker 3: Now, I'm not.

1255
01:06:25,160 --> 01:06:25,520
Speaker 2: You're not.

1256
01:06:25,840 --> 01:06:29,240
Speaker 3: I'm not. I had a recurrence three years ago and

1257
01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:32,640
Speaker 3: then again two years ago. But the weird thing is,

1258
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:37,040
Speaker 3: even though my prognosis may be worse than it's ever been,

1259
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:44,040
Speaker 3: I think, in a weird way, my relationship to my illness,

1260
01:06:44,160 --> 01:06:48,280
Speaker 3: but also my life in general, is healthier than it's

1261
01:06:48,280 --> 01:06:48,760
Speaker 3: ever been.

1262
01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:49,760
Speaker 2: I believe that.

1263
01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:50,800
Speaker 3: I believe that.

1264
01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:53,680
Speaker 1: And you said something I don't know if you said

1265
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:56,040
Speaker 1: it or John said it about the attention that you

1266
01:06:56,160 --> 01:07:01,320
Speaker 1: give to your illness that doesn't overpower your existence, that

1267
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:04,120
Speaker 1: you give it the amount of attention it deserves.

1268
01:07:04,160 --> 01:07:07,240
Speaker 3: And not one ounts more, right, And so what does

1269
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:10,360
Speaker 3: that mean for you. So when I learned two years

1270
01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:14,480
Speaker 3: ago that leukemia was back a third time, I was

1271
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:19,280
Speaker 3: like just undone. I spent a month in bed, and

1272
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:22,000
Speaker 3: I just didn't know how to deal with that level

1273
01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:25,200
Speaker 3: of uncertainty, how to move forward with it. And I

1274
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:27,880
Speaker 3: kept saying to my doctor, like, how do I live?

1275
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:30,080
Speaker 3: Like what do I do with this? What do you

1276
01:07:30,680 --> 01:07:34,240
Speaker 3: do when you have no idea what's going to happen

1277
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:36,680
Speaker 3: in three months or six months? How do I make plans?

1278
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:39,760
Speaker 3: How do I go on trips? How do I make

1279
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:44,720
Speaker 3: commit to work projects that might take several years to

1280
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:47,400
Speaker 3: see through? And the thing he said to me is

1281
01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:50,040
Speaker 3: the thing people often say, which is you have to

1282
01:07:50,120 --> 01:07:54,480
Speaker 3: live every day as if it's your last. And I've

1283
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:58,360
Speaker 3: come to believe that that is the worst advice. It's

1284
01:07:58,400 --> 01:08:02,840
Speaker 3: a lot of pressure to make every family dinner meaningful,

1285
01:08:03,040 --> 01:08:06,000
Speaker 3: to make every day as great as it can be,

1286
01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:09,280
Speaker 3: and it's just exhausting. So I'm done doing that. I've

1287
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:12,440
Speaker 3: come to believe it's bad advice generally, because if we

1288
01:08:12,440 --> 01:08:18,760
Speaker 3: were all doing that, we'd be declaring bankruptcy and the

1289
01:08:18,800 --> 01:08:23,000
Speaker 3: world would devolve into chaos. And so the way that

1290
01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:28,120
Speaker 3: I do that, in terms of right sizing my fear

1291
01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:31,320
Speaker 3: and going about living my life. Is that I've had

1292
01:08:31,320 --> 01:08:36,519
Speaker 3: to shift to a gentler mindset of living every day

1293
01:08:36,800 --> 01:08:41,160
Speaker 3: as if it's my first, which is to say, waking

1294
01:08:41,240 --> 01:08:46,560
Speaker 3: up with a sense of curiosity and wonder and playfulness

1295
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:50,400
Speaker 3: that little kids do so easily. And when I do that,

1296
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:55,960
Speaker 3: it's not about like the big bucket list things. It's

1297
01:08:56,040 --> 01:09:02,519
Speaker 3: about finding small joys. It's about lowering the pressure and

1298
01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:08,400
Speaker 3: the barrier to entry and just moving towards what feels nourishing,

1299
01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:11,200
Speaker 3: what feels fun, what feels interesting, and the.

1300
01:09:11,240 --> 01:09:15,040
Speaker 1: Things that make you smile, you know, sharing smiles with strangers,

1301
01:09:15,080 --> 01:09:18,120
Speaker 1: like those innocent acts or like, you know, little acts.

1302
01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:19,920
Speaker 2: I guess those things.

1303
01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:22,120
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, when you find yourself smiling alone

1304
01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:25,120
Speaker 1: at your house, you know, like looking out the window

1305
01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:26,519
Speaker 1: and looking at the tree and smiling.

1306
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:28,719
Speaker 2: You're like, that's actually quite.

1307
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:30,920
Speaker 1: Beautiful to have moments like that, and we all get

1308
01:09:30,920 --> 01:09:33,480
Speaker 1: swept up in the sea of craziness.

1309
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:35,920
Speaker 2: So it's a great reminder.

1310
01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:39,479
Speaker 3: Or adopting five dogs, not because it makes sense, it

1311
01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:42,759
Speaker 3: certainly does not, but because it makes you happy.

1312
01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:48,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so Leca, thank Youllouska Jawad, Is that right?

1313
01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:48,919
Speaker 3: Perfect.

1314
01:09:49,040 --> 01:09:52,080
Speaker 1: I got it, I knew, I got I get it

1315
01:09:51,240 --> 01:09:52,559
Speaker 1: now all the.

1316
01:09:52,479 --> 01:09:53,479
Speaker 2: Time I fucked up.

1317
01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:54,880
Speaker 3: Okay.

1318
01:09:54,880 --> 01:09:56,800
Speaker 1: The book is called the Book of Alchemy, and there's

1319
01:09:56,800 --> 01:09:59,760
Speaker 1: also the Alchemy Journal. Both are out now, and her

1320
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:03,719
Speaker 1: p book Between Two Kingdoms you can also purchase. And

1321
01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:05,960
Speaker 1: her column that you mentioned New York Times is called

1322
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:09,800
Speaker 1: Life Interrupted, and also American Symphony if you haven't seen

1323
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:11,160
Speaker 1: American Symphony on Netflix.

1324
01:10:11,160 --> 01:10:13,479
Speaker 2: It was produced by the Obamas, wasn't it Yeah? Yeah?

1325
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:16,880
Speaker 1: That was an Oscar nominated film, a Grammy Award winning film,

1326
01:10:16,920 --> 01:10:20,559
Speaker 1: and it was a beautiful illustration of your lives together

1327
01:10:20,840 --> 01:10:22,120
Speaker 1: and just everything.

1328
01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:24,160
Speaker 2: So thank you so much for your time today.

1329
01:10:24,240 --> 01:10:25,120
Speaker 3: Thank you, Chelsea.

1330
01:10:25,439 --> 01:10:25,880
Speaker 2: Thank you.

1331
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:29,759
Speaker 4: If you want advice from Chelsea, write into Dear Chelsea

1332
01:10:29,800 --> 01:10:33,160
Speaker 4: podcast at gmail dot com. Dear Chelsea is a production

1333
01:10:33,360 --> 01:10:37,200
Speaker 4: of iHeartMedia. Follow Chelsea on all socials at Chelsea Handler,

1334
01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:40,759
Speaker 4: and find Katherine on TikTok at flash Cadabra. Dear Chelsea

1335
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:45,160
Speaker 4: is edited and engineered by Brandon Dickert executive producer Katherine Law.

1336
01:10:45,439 --> 01:10:48,680
Speaker 4: Find full video episodes and minisodes now on Netflix, and

1337
01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:52,200
Speaker 4: get tickets to see Chelsea live at Chelseahandler dot com.