WEBVTT - Week in Tech: 23andBankruptcy

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Tech Stuff, a production of iHeart Podcasts and Kaleidoscope.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm os Vlosian, and today Cara Price and I will

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<v Speaker 1>bring you the headlines this week, including a bipartisan bill

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<v Speaker 1>that could change the future of the Internet. Then, in

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<v Speaker 1>our Tech Support segment, we'll talk to Jeffrey Fowler of

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<v Speaker 1>the Washington Post about the twenty three and me bankruptcy

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<v Speaker 1>and what that might mean for your genetic data. All

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<v Speaker 1>of that on the Weekend Tech. It's Friday, March twenty eighth. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm very, very excited to finally be able to say it.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back, Cara Price.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello, it's good to be back as Valashan.

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<v Speaker 1>You're armed with a document dossier.

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<v Speaker 2>I am, I have papers. I created a dossier of

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<v Speaker 2>all the tech stories that I want to bring up.

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<v Speaker 2>And then, of course you've already reported what happens with me.

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<v Speaker 2>But no, some of them, some of them are true

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<v Speaker 2>to my own weirdness and obsession. One of them is

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<v Speaker 2>Kim Kardashian's photoshoot for Perfect magazine, which came out a

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<v Speaker 2>couple of weeks ago.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, tell me about that. I remember, Kim Kardashian, you

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<v Speaker 1>and I were entertained last November by her sort of

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<v Speaker 1>first trap photos with the Tesla robot. But is this

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<v Speaker 1>a development?

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<v Speaker 2>So if you're Kim, you're gonna pose, and if you're Kim,

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<v Speaker 2>you're gonna post with the hottest stuff. Right, what's the

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<v Speaker 2>hottest stuff? The cyber truck and a Tesla robot And

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<v Speaker 2>those poses are not exactly of the doge variety. They

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<v Speaker 2>are sultry. But no, you know, there's actually a more

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<v Speaker 2>serious story here. The Associated Press reports that Tesla has

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<v Speaker 2>recalled nearly all cyber trucks, so it's more than forty

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<v Speaker 2>six thousand in fact, and the National Highway Traffic Safety

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<v Speaker 2>Administration warned that panels on either side of the truck's

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<v Speaker 2>windshield are in danger of detaching and creating a road

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<v Speaker 2>to hack. It's not funny, but it's like you're in

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<v Speaker 2>the hand, I mean, where you see it.

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<v Speaker 1>It's funny because ironic, because it's supposed to look like

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<v Speaker 1>you're living in the future but supposed to be roane.

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<v Speaker 2>It's RoboCop but with like an old hyende vibe. And

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<v Speaker 2>so the issue is actually the adhesive. It's vulnerable to

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<v Speaker 2>environmental embrittlement. According to the NHDSA.

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<v Speaker 1>I thought that was your phrase.

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<v Speaker 2>So drivers can get the panel replaced by Tesla for free, actually,

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<v Speaker 2>which I mean I imagining going to do that?

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<v Speaker 1>Fool's Errand yeah, I mean Tesla shares a down forty

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<v Speaker 1>two percent for this year, and I can't imagine this

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<v Speaker 1>story will help on the subject of corporate drama. I

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<v Speaker 1>was drawn to this story this week of tech enabled

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<v Speaker 1>business espionage. Here's the headline from tech Crunch. Rippling seu's deal.

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<v Speaker 1>Deal denies all legal wrongdoing and Slack is the main witness.

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<v Speaker 2>Can you explain to me how Slack is a witness? Actually,

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<v Speaker 2>Slack is a witness to a lot of our bacchanalia

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<v Speaker 2>for this show, So Slack as a witness actually makes

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<v Speaker 2>sense to me.

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<v Speaker 1>So yes, I mean, this is kind of a story

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<v Speaker 1>about who's watching on You're on your work software or computer.

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<v Speaker 1>But Rippling and Deal are HR startups that offer payroll

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<v Speaker 1>and other HR resources and their rifles. This is the

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<v Speaker 1>Pepsi and Coke of the HR software.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, that's the sexiest sentence.

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<v Speaker 1>In Rippling recently announced a lawsuit against Deal in a

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<v Speaker 1>fifty page complaint, the ledges racketeering, unfair competition, misappropriation of

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<v Speaker 1>trade secrets and more. And here's the real intrigue. The

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<v Speaker 1>lawsuit centers around an employee that Rippling alleges acts as

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<v Speaker 1>a spy for Deal.

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<v Speaker 2>The worst thing you could be at Coke's a Pepsi

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<v Speaker 2>spy and vice versa. But then again, I'm like, who

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<v Speaker 2>cares about trade secrets at Rippling and Deal? But I

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<v Speaker 2>guess it's the comtes.

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<v Speaker 1>Twelve and thirteen billion dollar HR companies. They're almost exactly

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<v Speaker 1>the same size, they have a very similar offering and

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<v Speaker 1>so so yeah, I think the stakes are high, and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, there's been a kind of public relations war

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<v Speaker 1>going on. In parallel, Rippling created a game on their

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<v Speaker 1>website called the Snake Game. You of course remember Snake.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I just download a black puzzle again, which

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<v Speaker 2>is the closest I can get, but Nokia.

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<v Speaker 1>Well it's not the closer you can get because you

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<v Speaker 1>can now play Snake on Ripling's website. Here are the instructions.

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<v Speaker 1>Deal often claims to be a one stop solution for

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<v Speaker 1>all your global payroll needs, but their customers pay the

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<v Speaker 1>price for gaps beneath the surface. Play this game to

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<v Speaker 1>find the difference between Deal's claims and the reality of

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<v Speaker 1>their proce.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the pettiest. This is pettier than some of

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<v Speaker 2>the stuff that my friends did in college.

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<v Speaker 1>But I'm sure you want to play the game, right, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So it won't be interesting to the listener to listen

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<v Speaker 2>to us play. But just like imagine playing Nokia Snake,

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<v Speaker 2>you gobble up all of the alleged deal falsehoods that

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<v Speaker 2>are at play. But the lawsuit was filed by Rippling.

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<v Speaker 1>That's right. And the reason it fascinates me, as I mentioned,

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<v Speaker 1>is because it's kind of about privacy, especially privacy as

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<v Speaker 1>an employee, right, Like, if you think you're alone on

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<v Speaker 1>your work computer, you're wrong, man.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, especially if you're a spy.

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, according to Ripling's own lawyers, the company keeps a

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<v Speaker 1>detailed log of what people do on Slack, Like when

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<v Speaker 1>an employee accesses Slack channels, or conducts searches on Slack,

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<v Speaker 1>or opens a document on Slack. All those things are logged.

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<v Speaker 1>And so the lawsuit contends that according to this logged activity,

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<v Speaker 1>the Rippling employee, who is allegedly a spy for Deal,

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<v Speaker 1>started looking at content associated with the word Deal at

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<v Speaker 1>a much higher rate beginning November, including perusing sales related

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<v Speaker 1>Slack channels that weren't necessary for his job in payroll operations.

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<v Speaker 2>But when they say looking, we're looking at.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I'll give you. I'll give you a clear example

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<v Speaker 1>of this. So this morning, when you slacked me and

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<v Speaker 1>said how can I find the log in details to

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<v Speaker 1>all of our subscriptions, what I did was I searched

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<v Speaker 1>log in in Slack and then that's how I found it.

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<v Speaker 1>So you used me as a human function, but you

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<v Speaker 1>actually there is a search function.

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<v Speaker 2>They're like OS has been trying to log in.

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<v Speaker 1>Quite a bit recently. So that's exactly right. So this

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<v Speaker 1>dude was writing deal into the Rippling corporate Slack and

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<v Speaker 1>seeing what he could find allegedly.

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<v Speaker 2>Fascinating, and so slack was basically, I mean, slack wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>doing anything. But like when people went looking for what

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<v Speaker 2>this guy was doing, Slack was like, here's what this

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<v Speaker 2>guy's doing.

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<v Speaker 1>People didn't just go looking, They actually created a honeytrap. Explained,

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<v Speaker 1>So Rippling created a Slack channel and started a rumor

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<v Speaker 1>that it had a bunch of embarrassing information about Deal

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<v Speaker 1>in it, and of course allisuredly this employee headed straight

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<v Speaker 1>for that slack channel.

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<v Speaker 2>And the spy employee searched for this channel and that

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<v Speaker 2>was picked up by the slack log is.

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<v Speaker 1>That's according to the lawsuit anyway. It also claims that

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<v Speaker 1>when the alleged spy was asked by court order to

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<v Speaker 1>hand over his phone, he escaped the bathroom, locked the

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<v Speaker 1>door behind him, and possibly even attempted to flush the

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<v Speaker 1>phone down the toilet.

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<v Speaker 2>As someone who's heard anxiety attacks, at first, I hear, well, honey,

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<v Speaker 2>that phone ain't going down the toilet, And then I'm like,

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<v Speaker 2>you know what, I would flush a phone down the toilet,

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<v Speaker 2>especially if it was a Nokia phone that things goes

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<v Speaker 2>right down, not my iPhone.

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<v Speaker 3>I know.

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<v Speaker 1>You have to imagine fishing your wet phone out of

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<v Speaker 1>the toilet having to fail to flush it is not.

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<v Speaker 2>The the way I have fished phones out of a toilet.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd be a millionaire if you paid.

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<v Speaker 1>Next, I have a story that doesn't exactly debunk the

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<v Speaker 1>claim that crypto is the Wild West. The story is

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<v Speaker 1>about something called a crypto mixer, and he guess what

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<v Speaker 1>that is, Cara.

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<v Speaker 2>Like something between the world's Saddest job fair and the

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<v Speaker 2>Saddest Prome.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I thought too, but then I asked Google Gemini. Ah,

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<v Speaker 1>And here's how Gemini explains. A crypto mixer, also known

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<v Speaker 1>as a tumbler, aggregates cryptocurrencies from multiple users, mixes them,

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<v Speaker 1>and redistributes them randomly, making it harder to trace the

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<v Speaker 1>origin and ownership of the funds. So, of course there's

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<v Speaker 1>a public ledger for cryptocurrency, the blockchain, but after the

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<v Speaker 1>mixing process, the coins are we distributed back to the

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<v Speaker 1>original depositors in a random manner.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like if everybody bought a bottle of vodka and

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<v Speaker 2>you made a huge batch martini and then you were like,

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<v Speaker 2>can I have my drink? You get your drink, and

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<v Speaker 2>you're like, I don't know if that was from my

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<v Speaker 2>bottle or who somebody else's voca battle.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that that is very very well put, and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sober. The metaphor the founders of this particular mixer chose, however,

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<v Speaker 1>was the Tornado, hence the name of Tornado Cash.

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<v Speaker 2>That sounds like a celebrity baby name.

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<v Speaker 1>Well wait till we get to the alleged perpetrator. In

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty two, the Justice Department alleged hackers, including the

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<v Speaker 1>Lazarus Group, which is allegedly run by the North Korean government,

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<v Speaker 1>launded billions of dollars in stone assets using Tornado Cash.

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<v Speaker 1>So the US took action and sanctioned the company, and.

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<v Speaker 2>So nobody in the US could use Tornado Cash anymore.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that was the name. That was one of the

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<v Speaker 1>consequences of the sanctions. Another was criminal charges against two

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<v Speaker 1>founders of Tornado Cash. The Wall Street Journal recently spoke

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<v Speaker 1>to one of the founders, whose name is get this,

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<v Speaker 1>Roman Storm.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't These are Kardashian children's names.

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<v Speaker 1>That's right. So Roman Storm the founder of Tornado Cash.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, all jokes aside. He was actually arrested

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<v Speaker 1>at gunpoint after federal agents stormed his home in twenty

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<v Speaker 1>twenty three to arrest him for his involvement in Tornado Cash.

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<v Speaker 1>He's now out on bail and says he's not guilty

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<v Speaker 1>of charges of money laundering and sanctions violations. In this

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<v Speaker 1>week's Wall Street Journal article, he maintains that the software

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<v Speaker 1>he created is neutral and has both good and bad

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<v Speaker 1>use cases.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's my understanding that the whole point of the

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<v Speaker 2>blockchain is to create a ledger that traces back the

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<v Speaker 2>original transaction. So what could possibly be a good use

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<v Speaker 2>of crypto mixing, Well, Storm.

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<v Speaker 1>Said, it's financial privacy. So an example he used actually

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<v Speaker 1>was that you could donate crypto to assist Ukraine in

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<v Speaker 1>their war effort without identifying yourself, for example, to Russian authorities.

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<v Speaker 2>So that actually makes a lot of sense.

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<v Speaker 1>There is some good news for Storm, we could go

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<v Speaker 1>the US actually lifted sanctions against Tornado Cash, and while

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<v Speaker 1>Storm is still awaiting trial, his ally seems to be

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<v Speaker 1>encouraged by the Trump administration's desire to make the US

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<v Speaker 1>the crypto capital of the world.

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<v Speaker 2>Unbelievable. I love that story. Else, The next story that

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<v Speaker 2>I want to talk to you about is one that

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<v Speaker 2>I have not shut up about since probably we started

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<v Speaker 2>doing Sleepwalkers.

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<v Speaker 1>Seven years ago, seven years ago.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know what, a lot of people in the

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<v Speaker 2>US government have not shut up about it over the

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<v Speaker 2>last seven years either. But this is the first time

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<v Speaker 2>in my research that I've felt like, Okay, there's actually

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<v Speaker 2>going to be some movement on this because members of

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<v Speaker 2>the bipartisan members of the US government are getting involved.

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<v Speaker 2>So Section two thirty sounds extremely boring, and I bring

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<v Speaker 2>it up at parties and people look like shut up.

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<v Speaker 2>But if I want to kind of plagiarize the way

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<v Speaker 2>that Section two thirty has been described by those who

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<v Speaker 2>care about it, it is the twenty six words that

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<v Speaker 2>created the Internet, the twenty six words of the following.

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<v Speaker 2>No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall

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<v Speaker 2>be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information

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<v Speaker 2>provided by another information content provider. What does that mean

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<v Speaker 2>to you?

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<v Speaker 1>Doesn't mean that much to me on the face of it,

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<v Speaker 1>But I know that those twenty six words have been

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<v Speaker 1>some of the most consequential in the history of technology legislation,

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<v Speaker 1>and arguably are lifetimes. They represent this addition to the

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<v Speaker 1>Communications Decency Act that was passed in the mid nineties,

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<v Speaker 1>and those twenty six words that created the Internet basically

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<v Speaker 1>meant that Internet platforms were not legally liable for third

0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:46.680
<v Speaker 1>party content like content created by users that lives on

0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:50.079
<v Speaker 1>their platforms when the law was struck. It was basically

0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:54.960
<v Speaker 1>designed to allow these Internet platforms to grow and to

0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:57.480
<v Speaker 1>host content without fear of liability.

0:11:58.000 --> 0:11:59.000
<v Speaker 2>They did that successful.

0:11:59.000 --> 0:11:59.760
<v Speaker 1>Boy did that work.

0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:03.400
<v Speaker 2>And it was also related to free speech concerns, which

0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:06.480
<v Speaker 2>is still something that you know people are talking about today,

0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:09.440
<v Speaker 2>which is this idea of like, how much is a

0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:10.760
<v Speaker 2>two moderated internet?

0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:10.960
<v Speaker 3>Right?

0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:15.360
<v Speaker 2>And so, ultimately, as you were saying, Section two thirty

0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:19.120
<v Speaker 2>allowed companies to put less effort into regulating their content

0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:20.959
<v Speaker 2>because they're not treated like publishers.

0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:25.040
<v Speaker 1>Publishers obviously are constantly subject to lawsuits for saying stuff

0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:29.439
<v Speaker 1>which is defamatory or for publishing content which is extreme,

0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:32.520
<v Speaker 1>whereas websites and social media platforms are immune.

0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:36.240
<v Speaker 2>Right, And in the nineties, nobody could have anticipated how

0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:38.920
<v Speaker 2>this law would fuel the explosion of what we now

0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:42.199
<v Speaker 2>know as social media. The story here is that thirty

0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:46.600
<v Speaker 2>years later, there is now some bipartisan support for modifying

0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:50.200
<v Speaker 2>Section two thirty, and two senators, one being Lindsay Graham,

0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:53.079
<v Speaker 2>who's a Republican from South Carolina, and the other Dick Durbin,

0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:57.240
<v Speaker 2>a Democrat from Illinois, plan on introducing a bill to

0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:00.679
<v Speaker 2>set an expiration date for Section two thirty, and that

0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:04.079
<v Speaker 2>date is January one, twenty twenty seven. Mark your calendar,

0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:05.840
<v Speaker 2>less than two years from now, less than two years

0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:10.400
<v Speaker 2>from now. But the Information reported that the lawmakers don't

0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:14.360
<v Speaker 2>actually want to repeal Section two thirty outright. It's really

0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:18.120
<v Speaker 2>more of an invitation to the tech companies to negotiate,

0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:20.760
<v Speaker 2>which is something that they have been unwilling to do

0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:22.160
<v Speaker 2>without an ultimatum thus far.

0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:24.360
<v Speaker 1>I think one of the interesting things about this story

0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:26.960
<v Speaker 1>is the first place you sort reported was in the

0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:29.640
<v Speaker 1>Information which is like the go to source for the

0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:30.960
<v Speaker 1>whole tech industry.

0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:33.800
<v Speaker 2>And I think what that signals is that big tech

0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:38.240
<v Speaker 2>is actually watching very closely. And one of the things

0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:41.960
<v Speaker 2>that I've noticed is just this increased anger towards tech

0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:45.080
<v Speaker 2>companies in recent years from both sides of the aisle.

0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:47.439
<v Speaker 2>You know, there's the growing concern for the safety of

0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:51.040
<v Speaker 2>kids online and frustrations about failed attempts to regulate big

0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:54.680
<v Speaker 2>tech again on both sides of the aisle, which may

0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:57.000
<v Speaker 2>bode well for this yet to be introduced Bill.

0:13:57.800 --> 0:13:59.679
<v Speaker 1>It's definitely a story we'll be following up with over

0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:02.679
<v Speaker 1>the come months. But right now, let's take a quick break.

0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:05.080
<v Speaker 1>We'll be back with a few more headlines, and then

0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:07.960
<v Speaker 1>we'll hear from Jeffrey Fowler of The Washington Post about

0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:11.839
<v Speaker 1>what twenty three and meters bankruptcy filing could mean progenetic data.

0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:28.280
<v Speaker 1>Stay with us, Welcome back. We have a few more

0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:30.480
<v Speaker 1>quick headlines to you this week before we dive into

0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:33.120
<v Speaker 1>our conversation with Jeffrey Fowler about twenty three and meter.

0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:36.240
<v Speaker 1>Casey Newton wrote this week in his newsletter about two

0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.520
<v Speaker 1>new studies, one from the MIT Media Lab and one

0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:42.960
<v Speaker 1>actually from Open ai itself, which suggests that heavy chatbot

0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:47.120
<v Speaker 1>use is correlated with loneliness and reduced socialization. Now, of course,

0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:50.960
<v Speaker 1>as Casey Newton and the studies both point out, correlation

0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:54.600
<v Speaker 1>is not causation. There's always a possibility that loneliness is

0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:57.440
<v Speaker 1>what propels someone to seek an emotional bond with a bot.

0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.440
<v Speaker 1>But the studies do point at a potent danger, which

0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:04.560
<v Speaker 1>is that engaging with compelling chatbots might pull people away

0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:07.680
<v Speaker 1>from connections with other humans, which may in turn drive

0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:11.320
<v Speaker 1>more loneliness and more dependence on a computer companion.

0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:14.640
<v Speaker 2>This is the digital chicken egg. Am I lonely seeking

0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:17.360
<v Speaker 2>a chatbot? Or is the chatbot so hot that I

0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:18.240
<v Speaker 2>can't stay away?

0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:19.080
<v Speaker 1>That's it.

0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:22.680
<v Speaker 2>There's another story that Semaphore reported on that an off

0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:26.400
<v Speaker 2>Broadway theater in New York is offering live AI powered

0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:30.800
<v Speaker 2>translations for the play Perfect Crime. So theatergoers can scan

0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:34.840
<v Speaker 2>a QR code and choose from sixty languages. So actors

0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:39.040
<v Speaker 2>wear microphones that feed their voices directly into the translation system,

0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:42.720
<v Speaker 2>so no side conversations or audience noises get accidentally picked

0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:45.680
<v Speaker 2>up by the AI powered translation services. This is an

0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:48.000
<v Speaker 2>incredible use of AI, which is like, you could be

0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:51.120
<v Speaker 2>a tourist from anywhere and see this show and still

0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:51.880
<v Speaker 2>understand it.

0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:57.200
<v Speaker 1>Finally, obviously we can't pass the headlines by without a

0:15:57.280 --> 0:15:58.760
<v Speaker 1>nod to this week.

0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:00.080
<v Speaker 2>The dofist Pentagon pracs.

0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:02.800
<v Speaker 1>Hashtag signal Gate. Just a few weeks ago we had

0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:05.960
<v Speaker 1>Meredith Whittaker, who runs Signal, the encrypti mesching app on

0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:08.960
<v Speaker 1>tech Stuff and Signal is absolutely the flavor of the

0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:12.320
<v Speaker 1>week because Jeffrey Goldberg, the editor of The Atlantic, was

0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:15.440
<v Speaker 1>accidentally included in a Signal group with JD. Vance and

0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:19.240
<v Speaker 1>Pete Hegseth to discuss highly sensitive battle plans for Yemen,

0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:22.480
<v Speaker 1>which are now absolutely all over the Internet. The lesson

0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:24.720
<v Speaker 1>here is that it turns out encryption doesn't work if

0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:29.200
<v Speaker 1>you invite journalists into your group chat. The story broke

0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:32.960
<v Speaker 1>the internet per Axios. Hashtag signal Gate is the most

0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:37.040
<v Speaker 1>interacted with story of the year to date. The Atlantic story,

0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:40.560
<v Speaker 1>which is titled the Trump administration accidentally texted me its

0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:44.520
<v Speaker 1>war plans has approaching five hundred thousand interactions on social media,

0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:47.400
<v Speaker 1>which is more than the second and third place stories

0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:50.560
<v Speaker 1>of the year combined. For your reference, those two are

0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:53.720
<v Speaker 1>Meet the World War II veteran that recently celebrated its

0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:57.520
<v Speaker 1>hundredth birthday from the venerable news source eleven Alive. And

0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:01.120
<v Speaker 1>Elon Musk's networth dropped twenty nine billion dollars in one

0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:05.920
<v Speaker 1>day as Tesla stock tanks from Business Insider. So lots

0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:08.760
<v Speaker 1>of emojis in the in government communication, many more than

0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:22.560
<v Speaker 1>one would suspect fireflames. So for our next segment, we're

0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:25.480
<v Speaker 1>going to explore what happens when a company that you've

0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:29.280
<v Speaker 1>given your personal data to hits a crisis. Now, companies

0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:32.320
<v Speaker 1>file for bankruptcy all the time, from major retailers and

0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:37.320
<v Speaker 1>restaurant chains to tech startups and bitcoin exchanges, but they

0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:41.840
<v Speaker 1>usually don't own the DNA sequences of millions of people.

0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:45.080
<v Speaker 1>So such as the case Carrot with twenty three and me, yeah.

0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:47.360
<v Speaker 2>They have my oh boy, do they have my data?

0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:49.399
<v Speaker 1>Was so you were one of the people in the

0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:51.600
<v Speaker 1>twenty tens when this was the hottest game in town

0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:52.520
<v Speaker 1>who couldn't resist.

0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:57.919
<v Speaker 2>I did it in twenty twenty one because it was

0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:02.720
<v Speaker 2>a thing that it was a thing that somebody bought

0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:05.040
<v Speaker 2>me as a gift, oh okay, And I kind of

0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:06.080
<v Speaker 2>sat on it for a little bit.

0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:09.200
<v Speaker 1>You're buying the dip as a user, not as an investor.

0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:12.680
<v Speaker 2>One thousand percent, and I, I don't know, I just

0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:15.560
<v Speaker 2>looked at it. I'm obsessed with my family history and

0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:17.440
<v Speaker 2>to get a little bit more serious, you know, it's

0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:20.760
<v Speaker 2>like I have a lot of dead relatives and I

0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:23.680
<v Speaker 2>don't have the ability to ask them, you know, who

0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:27.520
<v Speaker 2>was our extended family. And so I decided to take

0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:30.280
<v Speaker 2>matters into my own hands. And you know, lo and

0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:34.000
<v Speaker 2>behold found out that I'm incredibly Jewish, which doesn't surprise me,

0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:40.720
<v Speaker 2>and that's it, but that was still exciting. I struggle

0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:42.879
<v Speaker 2>with something that I think is really at the core

0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:46.560
<v Speaker 2>of this bankruptcy filing and how it affects people, which

0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:51.840
<v Speaker 2>is I love to give my data away. I don't care.

0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:55.400
<v Speaker 2>I want it now. I want Wi Fi at La Guardia,

0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:57.200
<v Speaker 2>I want Wi Fi in the middle of the street,

0:18:57.480 --> 0:18:58.800
<v Speaker 2>and I'm going to give you my pass where I'm

0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:01.520
<v Speaker 2>going to give you my email address. I also report

0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:03.679
<v Speaker 2>in a technology podcast where I know that that's a

0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:06.679
<v Speaker 2>terrible thing to do, and such as the case with

0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:09.520
<v Speaker 2>twenty three and Me, where everyone was like, Kara, don't

0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:12.880
<v Speaker 2>do that, just don't do it. Talk to your family

0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:14.399
<v Speaker 2>members and don't do it.

0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:16.760
<v Speaker 1>Now. Can I ask you? One of the things that

0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:18.440
<v Speaker 1>twenty three and Me was trying to do to kind

0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:21.680
<v Speaker 1>of make its business model more robust than just providing

0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:24.680
<v Speaker 1>a one off test that you literally never needed to repeat,

0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:26.960
<v Speaker 1>was to kind of build in this like social aspects

0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:32.200
<v Speaker 1>to the platform. Did you connect with any distant, previously

0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:33.639
<v Speaker 1>uncontacted relatives.

0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:38.320
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and we figured out we were related. You know,

0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:41.440
<v Speaker 2>no profound It was not a profound thing. And look,

0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:43.560
<v Speaker 2>I know that for a lot of people what happened

0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:46.119
<v Speaker 2>was like people found out they had like a brother

0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:48.520
<v Speaker 2>or another family. You know, it was I think it

0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:50.320
<v Speaker 2>was a It had a profound effect on a lot

0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:52.439
<v Speaker 2>of people. It did not have a profound effect on me.

0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:56.520
<v Speaker 1>So my sister is pretty interested in genealogy, family tree, etc.

0:19:57.000 --> 0:20:01.480
<v Speaker 1>Scarce and she, to her enormous credit, said to my father,

0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:04.280
<v Speaker 1>would you mind if I do twenty three and meters?

0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:07.680
<v Speaker 1>And he said, I would really prefer it if you didn't,

0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:11.040
<v Speaker 1>because I don't want to know if there's a serial

0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:16.480
<v Speaker 1>killer in the family. We both raised the eyebrows with this,

0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:20.000
<v Speaker 1>and of course the question arose, was there a suspect

0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:20.560
<v Speaker 1>in mind?

0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:23.360
<v Speaker 2>You're like, are you exact?

0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:27.400
<v Speaker 1>So she didn't do it? You know how paranora I am.

0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:30.439
<v Speaker 1>Of course I didn't do it either, But fifteen million

0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:33.200
<v Speaker 1>people did. And many of those people who know about

0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:35.919
<v Speaker 1>the bankruptcy, I'm sure are concerned about what's going to

0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:39.120
<v Speaker 1>happen to their personal data. Here to help us understand

0:20:39.240 --> 0:20:41.760
<v Speaker 1>is Jeffrey Fowler, who writes a column for The Washington

0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:45.240
<v Speaker 1>Post all about the user experience of technology, the good

0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:47.600
<v Speaker 1>and the bad. And what I particularly like about his

0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:51.520
<v Speaker 1>writing is that he really centers the user in his column.

0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:54.000
<v Speaker 1>It's tech journalism, but it's practical tech journalism. What does

0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:56.639
<v Speaker 1>this mean for me? How can I make things better?

0:20:57.200 --> 0:20:59.040
<v Speaker 1>What should I know? And so he wrote a column

0:20:59.040 --> 0:20:59.960
<v Speaker 1>this week that called both of our I.

0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:01.919
<v Speaker 2>Jeffrey, welcome to tech stuff.

0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:04.879
<v Speaker 1>Hello, Hello, So you wrote a story this week and

0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:07.760
<v Speaker 1>the headline was delete your DNA from twenty three and

0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:11.480
<v Speaker 1>me right now, which was quite a captivating headline. Could

0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:13.239
<v Speaker 1>you just start off by giving us a little bit

0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:15.800
<v Speaker 1>of the background On twenty three and meters. And then

0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:17.960
<v Speaker 1>while you wrote this story, I wrote.

0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:23.120
<v Speaker 4>It because fifteen million people around the world spat into

0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:25.760
<v Speaker 4>a little vial and sent their DNA to a company

0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:29.480
<v Speaker 4>in Silicon Valley with the promise of unlocking all sorts

0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:32.480
<v Speaker 4>of things about our ethnicity, our background, our family tree,

0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:36.800
<v Speaker 4>and our health. But it turns out that the company

0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:41.320
<v Speaker 4>that we trusted with that information, that really really precious information,

0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:46.680
<v Speaker 4>was a terrible business, and it declared bankruptcy late Sunday night.

0:21:47.200 --> 0:21:48.800
<v Speaker 4>And if there's one thing I know, it's true you

0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:51.240
<v Speaker 4>do not want a company that is bankrupt to be

0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:55.720
<v Speaker 4>responsible for protecting your very precious information. And that's the

0:21:55.760 --> 0:21:58.440
<v Speaker 4>situation we find ourselves in. So the moment I heard

0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:01.160
<v Speaker 4>about it, I was like, we need to press published

0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:03.280
<v Speaker 4>on this story right now. And it seems like a

0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:06.440
<v Speaker 4>lot of people agreed, because so many people have been

0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:08.560
<v Speaker 4>trying to delete their data from twenty three and me

0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:11.840
<v Speaker 4>that the site has been down for large periods of

0:22:11.840 --> 0:22:12.640
<v Speaker 4>this week.

0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:14.879
<v Speaker 2>And yet you, like me, could not resist getting a

0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:17.480
<v Speaker 2>twenty three in me account. What were your reasons for

0:22:17.520 --> 0:22:19.199
<v Speaker 2>getting an account originally?

0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:23.080
<v Speaker 4>You know, I think it sort of tracks the arc

0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:26.080
<v Speaker 4>of a lot of our relationships with technology and with

0:22:26.200 --> 0:22:28.720
<v Speaker 4>data over the last twenty years. Look, this was the

0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:35.720
<v Speaker 4>two thousands for me. There was so much possibility out there, right,

0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:39.840
<v Speaker 4>and you know, in two thousand whatever, when I did

0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:42.480
<v Speaker 4>my twenty three and me test, what I could imagine

0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:45.159
<v Speaker 4>was what the company was promising, which was just a

0:22:45.160 --> 0:22:49.199
<v Speaker 4>fascinating idea, right that together, if they were able to

0:22:49.240 --> 0:22:51.520
<v Speaker 4>gather enough DNA data, they could use the power of

0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:55.119
<v Speaker 4>technology to unlock all kinds of secrets about the human body.

0:22:55.320 --> 0:22:57.560
<v Speaker 4>They could already even in those early days, tell you

0:22:57.640 --> 0:23:00.639
<v Speaker 4>curious things about yourself, Like I remember one information they

0:23:00.640 --> 0:23:02.880
<v Speaker 4>gave me is that I have a gene that makes

0:23:02.880 --> 0:23:04.600
<v Speaker 4>me likely to have wet ear wax.

0:23:06.359 --> 0:23:09.280
<v Speaker 1>While that is, I feel so seen. I was always wondering.

0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:10.600
<v Speaker 1>It's a thing. It does.

0:23:10.680 --> 0:23:11.880
<v Speaker 2>It's very validating.

0:23:12.359 --> 0:23:14.160
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, And so while that's like the wet ear wax

0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:15.960
<v Speaker 4>is not going to change the world, they maybe could

0:23:16.040 --> 0:23:19.600
<v Speaker 4>learn things about cancer or all kinds of mysteries about

0:23:19.640 --> 0:23:22.919
<v Speaker 4>the human body. That is, That was and remains a

0:23:22.960 --> 0:23:24.960
<v Speaker 4>pretty exciting idea.

0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:27.200
<v Speaker 2>All of these things are true about twenty three and

0:23:27.240 --> 0:23:30.560
<v Speaker 2>meters And as a user, I also experienced, you know,

0:23:30.600 --> 0:23:34.760
<v Speaker 2>some interesting information and connection with people that I didn't

0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:38.360
<v Speaker 2>even know were distant cousins. But as you said earlier,

0:23:38.840 --> 0:23:42.200
<v Speaker 2>this is no longer a viable company. Can you talk

0:23:42.240 --> 0:23:45.320
<v Speaker 2>a little bit about why it went bankrupt and how

0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:46.679
<v Speaker 2>it started to run into trouble.

0:23:47.080 --> 0:23:49.200
<v Speaker 4>So all preface this was saying like, I've not been

0:23:49.320 --> 0:23:52.480
<v Speaker 4>tracking the financial fortunes of twenty three and meters over

0:23:52.520 --> 0:23:55.200
<v Speaker 4>the years, but I know at the high level they've

0:23:55.240 --> 0:23:58.120
<v Speaker 4>tried a lot of different ideas to make the business work.

0:23:58.240 --> 0:24:00.760
<v Speaker 4>Because it turns out that when you asked people to

0:24:00.800 --> 0:24:03.600
<v Speaker 4>spend roughly one hundred bucks to send you their DNA,

0:24:03.960 --> 0:24:06.680
<v Speaker 4>they only want to do that once, right, So twenty

0:24:06.720 --> 0:24:09.399
<v Speaker 4>three and ME had this problem, which was once people

0:24:09.440 --> 0:24:11.400
<v Speaker 4>did the test, that you couldn't get any more money

0:24:11.440 --> 0:24:13.160
<v Speaker 4>out of them. So they had to figure out other

0:24:13.200 --> 0:24:16.199
<v Speaker 4>ways to keep going as a business, to make some

0:24:16.240 --> 0:24:18.040
<v Speaker 4>money out of the data that they had. And I

0:24:18.080 --> 0:24:19.760
<v Speaker 4>think the big idea that they had was that it

0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:22.560
<v Speaker 4>was going to be useful for developing drugs, and they

0:24:22.600 --> 0:24:25.840
<v Speaker 4>made a big partnership with GSK, and GSK took a

0:24:25.880 --> 0:24:28.520
<v Speaker 4>stake in the company, and that went on for several years,

0:24:28.520 --> 0:24:31.600
<v Speaker 4>but it wasn't producing results at a scale that was

0:24:31.640 --> 0:24:34.239
<v Speaker 4>helping them and I guess the costs associated with it

0:24:34.240 --> 0:24:37.440
<v Speaker 4>were just gigantic. They've then tried other things. They tried,

0:24:37.520 --> 0:24:41.600
<v Speaker 4>I think most recently selling GLP once as kind of

0:24:42.240 --> 0:24:44.280
<v Speaker 4>a home kind of health kind of service like Pivot

0:24:44.320 --> 0:24:47.440
<v Speaker 4>to Health, and it just didn't work, leading to around

0:24:47.440 --> 0:24:49.840
<v Speaker 4>twenty twenty one that they went public and they were

0:24:49.880 --> 0:24:53.920
<v Speaker 4>valued at six billion dollars roughly, and then as a

0:24:53.920 --> 0:24:56.800
<v Speaker 4>Sunday night when I checked, it was around fifty million dollars.

0:24:56.840 --> 0:24:58.439
<v Speaker 4>They have no idea what it would be now that

0:24:58.480 --> 0:25:04.000
<v Speaker 4>it's in bankruptcy court. Probably less, probably less. And along

0:25:04.040 --> 0:25:05.560
<v Speaker 4>the way they had one other thing that we should

0:25:05.560 --> 0:25:08.720
<v Speaker 4>definitely talk about, which was they had a big hacking attack.

0:25:09.160 --> 0:25:11.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I wanted to ask you about that because I think,

0:25:11.840 --> 0:25:13.879
<v Speaker 1>you know, you sort of pointed out that there was

0:25:14.320 --> 0:25:16.639
<v Speaker 1>a time in the two thousands where we just couldn't

0:25:16.640 --> 0:25:19.440
<v Speaker 1>wait to give our data to all comers and see

0:25:19.440 --> 0:25:22.600
<v Speaker 1>what kind of surprising results that we got back that change,

0:25:22.600 --> 0:25:25.000
<v Speaker 1>which presumably became a headwind for twenty three and meters.

0:25:25.080 --> 0:25:28.320
<v Speaker 1>But there also some specific issues they had that may

0:25:28.359 --> 0:25:29.560
<v Speaker 1>have put customers off.

0:25:30.160 --> 0:25:32.800
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and I think the attacking attack is a big one.

0:25:33.160 --> 0:25:36.160
<v Speaker 4>My memory of it is that they had a problem

0:25:36.200 --> 0:25:39.800
<v Speaker 4>with users that were reusing passwords or using passwords that

0:25:39.800 --> 0:25:42.280
<v Speaker 4>had been otherwise compromised on the internet. This is a

0:25:42.280 --> 0:25:45.080
<v Speaker 4>common thing to all our listeners if you do not

0:25:45.160 --> 0:25:47.480
<v Speaker 4>already have a password manager and use it to get

0:25:47.840 --> 0:25:50.560
<v Speaker 4>distinct passwords on every single site, and Appy used and

0:25:50.560 --> 0:25:52.960
<v Speaker 4>do that now because that is a big risk. But

0:25:53.200 --> 0:25:55.480
<v Speaker 4>turns out a lot of twenty three meter users fit

0:25:55.520 --> 0:25:58.280
<v Speaker 4>in that bucket, and folks were able to get into

0:25:58.560 --> 0:26:01.159
<v Speaker 4>a whole bunch of accounts and then even offer to

0:26:01.400 --> 0:26:04.200
<v Speaker 4>sell some of that some of what they learn online.

0:26:04.320 --> 0:26:06.600
<v Speaker 4>I think it was mostly information about like family trees.

0:26:06.640 --> 0:26:09.439
<v Speaker 4>I don't think they got people's like DNA samples, but

0:26:09.520 --> 0:26:12.680
<v Speaker 4>still it was enough to really really spook people. And

0:26:12.880 --> 0:26:14.960
<v Speaker 4>you know, because at that core of it, I think

0:26:15.000 --> 0:26:18.200
<v Speaker 4>people are and even back then, we're pretty nervous about

0:26:18.240 --> 0:26:20.880
<v Speaker 4>the idea of spinning into a vial, and any breach

0:26:20.920 --> 0:26:23.239
<v Speaker 4>of that trust by by twenty three and me was

0:26:23.359 --> 0:26:24.840
<v Speaker 4>just it was just killer.

0:26:30.400 --> 0:26:32.960
<v Speaker 1>After the break, we're going to get Kara to finally

0:26:32.960 --> 0:26:47.680
<v Speaker 1>delete her account, stay with us. So, Jeffrey, what happens

0:26:47.680 --> 0:26:49.919
<v Speaker 1>is you don't delete your data from twenty three and me, Like,

0:26:49.920 --> 0:26:50.919
<v Speaker 1>what would happen then.

0:26:51.040 --> 0:26:53.320
<v Speaker 4>If you don't delete your data from twenty three and

0:26:53.400 --> 0:26:57.359
<v Speaker 4>me it is now essentially up for sale. So the

0:26:57.440 --> 0:27:01.520
<v Speaker 4>company has said that it is in bankruptcy court, which

0:27:01.520 --> 0:27:03.480
<v Speaker 4>means it has to find it either find a buyer

0:27:03.480 --> 0:27:05.920
<v Speaker 4>for the whole company or sell it off for parts.

0:27:06.080 --> 0:27:08.840
<v Speaker 4>And the most valuable asset they have is the DNA

0:27:09.000 --> 0:27:12.800
<v Speaker 4>data of sensibly still millions of people. Who is going

0:27:12.840 --> 0:27:15.879
<v Speaker 4>to buy that, We don't know. There's lots of speculation,

0:27:16.040 --> 0:27:17.320
<v Speaker 4>maybe insurance.

0:27:16.880 --> 0:27:22.040
<v Speaker 3>Companies, insurance we have well, we have some laws, some

0:27:22.160 --> 0:27:25.600
<v Speaker 3>laws in the US that protect users from not users

0:27:25.680 --> 0:27:27.240
<v Speaker 3>protect people from.

0:27:27.000 --> 0:27:30.439
<v Speaker 4>Having their their data, their genetic data used to keep

0:27:30.480 --> 0:27:34.000
<v Speaker 4>them from getting things like healthcare coverage. But it's not

0:27:34.080 --> 0:27:36.440
<v Speaker 4>an airtight law and it doesn't apply to other kinds

0:27:36.480 --> 0:27:39.040
<v Speaker 4>of insurance. And again, it can also be bought by

0:27:39.040 --> 0:27:41.600
<v Speaker 4>somebody who we have no idea what they're going to

0:27:41.680 --> 0:27:43.520
<v Speaker 4>do with it, and they may not try to do

0:27:43.520 --> 0:27:47.080
<v Speaker 4>anything with it for like a long time. Because that's

0:27:47.119 --> 0:27:49.000
<v Speaker 4>the thing about data. I think that is the key

0:27:49.440 --> 0:27:52.119
<v Speaker 4>takeaway lesson for everybody from this that you know, you

0:27:52.119 --> 0:27:53.879
<v Speaker 4>can think you know what's going to happen to it

0:27:53.920 --> 0:27:56.480
<v Speaker 4>at one time, and then in the future. It has

0:27:56.480 --> 0:27:58.840
<v Speaker 4>a totally different use, and that applies to our genetic data,

0:27:58.880 --> 0:28:00.560
<v Speaker 4>but all kinds of things about our lives.

0:28:01.080 --> 0:28:03.440
<v Speaker 1>Can anybody delete that twenty three meter day secause? I

0:28:03.440 --> 0:28:05.520
<v Speaker 1>think I read in the piece there's a California law

0:28:05.520 --> 0:28:09.080
<v Speaker 1>that makes this particularly easy to do, or at least

0:28:09.080 --> 0:28:11.720
<v Speaker 1>possible to do. But what about for other people elsewhere

0:28:11.720 --> 0:28:13.160
<v Speaker 1>in the US or elsewhere in the world.

0:28:13.480 --> 0:28:15.879
<v Speaker 4>I'm glad you asked this question. So we've been pretty

0:28:15.960 --> 0:28:19.040
<v Speaker 4>sort of gloomy so far in this conversation. But there's

0:28:19.080 --> 0:28:21.439
<v Speaker 4>a glimmer of good news here, so let's talk about that.

0:28:21.440 --> 0:28:21.840
<v Speaker 1>I love it.

0:28:23.119 --> 0:28:29.320
<v Speaker 4>Starting back in twenty eighteen, California passed a law that said, you,

0:28:29.760 --> 0:28:34.159
<v Speaker 4>dear consumer user citizen, have some privacy rights, and among

0:28:34.200 --> 0:28:37.080
<v Speaker 4>those are you have the rights to delete data that

0:28:37.119 --> 0:28:40.080
<v Speaker 4>companies collect about you. And then a couple years later,

0:28:40.120 --> 0:28:43.480
<v Speaker 4>actually during COVID, California passed another law that everybody was

0:28:43.520 --> 0:28:46.560
<v Speaker 4>so distracted by COVID about we forgot even existed, which

0:28:46.600 --> 0:28:49.800
<v Speaker 4>is a genetic information privacy law which comes even deeper

0:28:49.960 --> 0:28:52.200
<v Speaker 4>and says you not only have the right to delete

0:28:52.640 --> 0:28:55.640
<v Speaker 4>your data from a company, you also have the you

0:28:55.640 --> 0:28:57.880
<v Speaker 4>have the special right to delete genetic data. You have

0:28:57.920 --> 0:29:00.240
<v Speaker 4>the right to tell them to destroy your sample, and

0:29:00.360 --> 0:29:02.040
<v Speaker 4>you have the right to tell them withdraw me from

0:29:02.080 --> 0:29:06.240
<v Speaker 4>any research that's going on. So hoay California for this law.

0:29:06.560 --> 0:29:09.720
<v Speaker 4>Other states, seeing that the federal government in the US

0:29:10.080 --> 0:29:13.280
<v Speaker 4>was doing absolutely nothing to protect our data privacy rights,

0:29:13.440 --> 0:29:15.600
<v Speaker 4>copied it, and I am now happy to say they're

0:29:15.600 --> 0:29:19.200
<v Speaker 4>about twenty states that have versions of this law that

0:29:19.440 --> 0:29:22.120
<v Speaker 4>require giving people the right to delete their data. I

0:29:22.120 --> 0:29:24.320
<v Speaker 4>have a little map that think gets updated that I keep,

0:29:24.360 --> 0:29:26.520
<v Speaker 4>which is like my little sign of hope in the

0:29:26.600 --> 0:29:29.440
<v Speaker 4>dark dark days that regulation can work and we can

0:29:29.480 --> 0:29:32.120
<v Speaker 4>have some help. So the reality is the majority of

0:29:32.160 --> 0:29:35.000
<v Speaker 4>Americas are now covered by these state laws, and so companies,

0:29:35.040 --> 0:29:37.920
<v Speaker 4>including twenty three and me basically treat all Americans the

0:29:37.960 --> 0:29:40.920
<v Speaker 4>same way now, which is to say, yes, we will

0:29:40.960 --> 0:29:43.080
<v Speaker 4>delete your data. Now, a lot of people have been

0:29:43.080 --> 0:29:44.680
<v Speaker 4>writing to me saying like, well, how do we know

0:29:44.680 --> 0:29:48.040
<v Speaker 4>they're really deleting it? It boils down to like if

0:29:48.080 --> 0:29:50.479
<v Speaker 4>they don't, they could get into big trouble.

0:29:50.680 --> 0:29:53.080
<v Speaker 1>But who's they? I mean, this is the receivers, the creditors,

0:29:53.080 --> 0:29:56.040
<v Speaker 1>I mean, in a bankrupt company, the stakes. So I mean,

0:29:56.080 --> 0:29:58.440
<v Speaker 1>who do you go after in the event they don't

0:29:58.640 --> 0:30:00.800
<v Speaker 1>take this duty seriously through the ankruptcy process.

0:30:01.360 --> 0:30:03.880
<v Speaker 4>It's true that like they have very little left to lose,

0:30:04.040 --> 0:30:06.520
<v Speaker 4>you might argue, but there is a spotlight on them

0:30:06.520 --> 0:30:09.400
<v Speaker 4>because they're going through this process, right, and so there's

0:30:09.440 --> 0:30:12.040
<v Speaker 4>going to be a judge involved. And to be fair

0:30:12.080 --> 0:30:15.240
<v Speaker 4>to twenty three and meters, they have already said, look,

0:30:15.280 --> 0:30:17.840
<v Speaker 4>we are going to handle your data the same way

0:30:17.880 --> 0:30:21.360
<v Speaker 4>we always have throughout this process, and we're going to

0:30:21.400 --> 0:30:23.000
<v Speaker 4>try to look for a buyer that will uphold the

0:30:23.080 --> 0:30:26.760
<v Speaker 4>same use. But the truth of it is, because America

0:30:26.840 --> 0:30:29.960
<v Speaker 4>has no real laws that cover this kind of data,

0:30:30.400 --> 0:30:32.320
<v Speaker 4>that all that they would really have to do is

0:30:32.480 --> 0:30:34.960
<v Speaker 4>update the new buyer would have to update a privacy

0:30:35.000 --> 0:30:38.000
<v Speaker 4>policy and give you notice of that and kind of

0:30:38.360 --> 0:30:40.560
<v Speaker 4>then again give you that chance to delete it if

0:30:40.560 --> 0:30:41.920
<v Speaker 4>you don't want to be a part of that. And

0:30:41.960 --> 0:30:44.160
<v Speaker 4>the truth is most Americans are not paying enough attention.

0:30:44.640 --> 0:30:46.800
<v Speaker 4>Even if you know, even if I do another Washington

0:30:46.840 --> 0:30:50.600
<v Speaker 4>Post headline, but this time in all capital letters, you

0:30:50.640 --> 0:30:52.959
<v Speaker 4>know a lot of people wouldnt wouldn't pay attention to that.

0:30:53.720 --> 0:30:56.480
<v Speaker 1>So you haven't started a genetic bank run. We don't

0:30:56.480 --> 0:30:58.320
<v Speaker 1>know how many are actually trying to delete their data,

0:30:58.360 --> 0:31:01.360
<v Speaker 1>certainly enough to crash the website, but a majority, as

0:31:01.360 --> 0:31:01.800
<v Speaker 1>far as we know.

0:31:02.520 --> 0:31:06.840
<v Speaker 4>I asked twenty three and me yesterday and they wouldn't say.

0:31:05.960 --> 0:31:12.600
<v Speaker 2>You've convinced an undisclosed amount of people to delete twenty

0:31:12.600 --> 0:31:16.280
<v Speaker 2>three and me. I'm gonna be honest, Jeffrey. I read

0:31:16.280 --> 0:31:23.160
<v Speaker 2>your article. I didn't do anything, and it's because I'm lazy.

0:31:23.200 --> 0:31:25.560
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there's there's no good reason. Like you, you

0:31:25.600 --> 0:31:29.959
<v Speaker 2>wrote an incredibly compelling article. I went on Instagram instead,

0:31:30.160 --> 0:31:31.520
<v Speaker 2>Like there's no good reason.

0:31:31.560 --> 0:31:32.560
<v Speaker 1>But how do you actually do it?

0:31:32.960 --> 0:31:34.680
<v Speaker 4>Okay, you want to do it together? Right now?

0:31:35.240 --> 0:31:38.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Yeah, hold on one second. Can we get your phone?

0:31:38.600 --> 0:31:38.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

0:31:38.800 --> 0:31:41.880
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so I'm opening of course, I'm like, I'm opening

0:31:41.880 --> 0:31:44.800
<v Speaker 2>it with my face, So tell me how to delete.

0:31:44.840 --> 0:31:45.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm now in the app.

0:31:45.640 --> 0:31:48.680
<v Speaker 4>It says, hey, Kara, so go up to I think

0:31:48.680 --> 0:31:50.200
<v Speaker 4>it's on the upper right corner.

0:31:50.320 --> 0:31:52.480
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So I'm there. God, I'm gonna miss my cousins.

0:31:52.960 --> 0:31:53.280
<v Speaker 2>Keep on.

0:31:53.760 --> 0:31:57.440
<v Speaker 4>You can look for settings. Once you tap on your

0:31:57.480 --> 0:31:58.600
<v Speaker 4>little profile.

0:31:58.400 --> 0:32:00.560
<v Speaker 2>I's a chance to pass for an updated information.

0:32:01.080 --> 0:32:03.320
<v Speaker 4>Okay. Once your in settings, keep scrolling all the way

0:32:03.320 --> 0:32:06.040
<v Speaker 4>down and towards the very end, you'll see an area

0:32:06.120 --> 0:32:07.080
<v Speaker 4>called twenty.

0:32:06.800 --> 0:32:07.960
<v Speaker 2>Three and menu data Got it?

0:32:08.000 --> 0:32:08.280
<v Speaker 1>Got it?

0:32:08.360 --> 0:32:08.560
<v Speaker 3>Yep?

0:32:09.080 --> 0:32:10.800
<v Speaker 4>Okay, then click view.

0:32:11.080 --> 0:32:14.600
<v Speaker 2>Well there's an access your data or delete your data in.

0:32:14.600 --> 0:32:17.160
<v Speaker 4>Mind, Oh you want to delete?

0:32:18.440 --> 0:32:20.760
<v Speaker 1>We were like shock, we were already to folkate the

0:32:20.800 --> 0:32:22.600
<v Speaker 1>roads that Jeffrey, thank you.

0:32:22.720 --> 0:32:23.480
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't sure.

0:32:23.840 --> 0:32:27.000
<v Speaker 4>It will give you a chance to download some of

0:32:27.040 --> 0:32:31.800
<v Speaker 4>the data, including everything from their report about your health

0:32:31.840 --> 0:32:33.000
<v Speaker 4>and your family.

0:32:32.760 --> 0:32:34.440
<v Speaker 2>And report summary. Here we go.

0:32:35.120 --> 0:32:37.479
<v Speaker 4>And then after you get that stuff, Okay, you're going

0:32:37.520 --> 0:32:39.600
<v Speaker 4>to scroll down, you're going to click delete. Now. A

0:32:39.640 --> 0:32:42.080
<v Speaker 4>couple of things to mention about this. While you're clicking

0:32:42.120 --> 0:32:45.440
<v Speaker 4>on things. When you ask to delete, they also do

0:32:45.560 --> 0:32:50.320
<v Speaker 4>two more things. One they also delete your specimen if

0:32:50.360 --> 0:32:52.520
<v Speaker 4>you'd left them the physical jewel that you send them

0:32:52.520 --> 0:32:56.000
<v Speaker 4>in the mail. And two, they withdraw you from any

0:32:56.120 --> 0:32:57.920
<v Speaker 4>health studies that you might have opted into.

0:32:58.280 --> 0:33:00.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry, I just want to share one thing, Jeffrey,

0:33:00.080 --> 0:33:02.479
<v Speaker 2>and this has nothing to do with our podcast. You

0:33:02.520 --> 0:33:05.520
<v Speaker 2>and I, Jeffrey, are both likely to get wet earwax.

0:33:06.080 --> 0:33:07.400
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, let me tell you if you ever live in

0:33:07.400 --> 0:33:10.000
<v Speaker 4>a really moist place that your wax is going to

0:33:10.040 --> 0:33:13.840
<v Speaker 4>sneak up on you.

0:33:14.160 --> 0:33:14.760
<v Speaker 1>I'm deleting.

0:33:14.880 --> 0:33:18.760
<v Speaker 2>Here we go, permanently delete. Oh gosh, here we go.

0:33:19.120 --> 0:33:21.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm like in this house, we delete twenty three and

0:33:21.440 --> 0:33:25.400
<v Speaker 2>meters and then it says profile data, so delete data.

0:33:26.880 --> 0:33:28.840
<v Speaker 2>So here what it says is we have received your

0:33:28.880 --> 0:33:31.480
<v Speaker 2>request to delete your data and have sent an email

0:33:31.520 --> 0:33:32.959
<v Speaker 2>to the email address link to you'rre trying to three

0:33:33.000 --> 0:33:35.120
<v Speaker 2>me account. Please locate this email on the strategy to

0:33:35.120 --> 0:33:36.080
<v Speaker 2>confirm my request.

0:33:36.560 --> 0:33:38.640
<v Speaker 4>That's right, So your kind your email app and then

0:33:38.640 --> 0:33:41.920
<v Speaker 4>it's an email in there, and then you press do it.

0:33:41.760 --> 0:33:44.960
<v Speaker 2>Do it permanently, delete all records permanent.

0:33:45.680 --> 0:33:49.680
<v Speaker 4>Do remember. Should you decide that you really still want

0:33:49.720 --> 0:33:55.160
<v Speaker 4>to know about such things, you could swab again. The

0:33:55.200 --> 0:33:57.880
<v Speaker 4>one thing about your DNA is it's not changing. And

0:33:57.920 --> 0:33:59.760
<v Speaker 4>that's in some cases I guess a good thing and

0:34:00.200 --> 0:34:01.440
<v Speaker 4>sometimes of badly bad thing.

0:34:01.680 --> 0:34:04.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Jeffrey just decays. I have two questions for you.

0:34:05.520 --> 0:34:08.800
<v Speaker 1>The first is how often, as the technology columnst for

0:34:08.840 --> 0:34:11.279
<v Speaker 1>the Washington Post, do you have to talk people through

0:34:11.440 --> 0:34:13.600
<v Speaker 1>how to do banal technology tasks.

0:34:13.800 --> 0:34:16.959
<v Speaker 4>We actually have a special thing on our website where

0:34:16.960 --> 0:34:18.839
<v Speaker 4>it's like, this is the box for us to give

0:34:18.880 --> 0:34:20.799
<v Speaker 4>people instructions for things. So in fact, if you pull

0:34:20.880 --> 0:34:23.080
<v Speaker 4>up my column on this and you scroll down a

0:34:23.120 --> 0:34:25.120
<v Speaker 4>little bit. I've got one of those boxes that I

0:34:25.160 --> 0:34:26.920
<v Speaker 4>was literally reading off of while we were going through

0:34:26.920 --> 0:34:30.279
<v Speaker 4>this process together. And that's fine. Look, this stuff is

0:34:30.320 --> 0:34:34.400
<v Speaker 4>hard yep. These companies can act in evil ways and

0:34:34.440 --> 0:34:37.719
<v Speaker 4>it's not your fault. So the whole premise of what

0:34:37.800 --> 0:34:39.600
<v Speaker 4>I try to do as a tech columnist of the

0:34:39.719 --> 0:34:42.280
<v Speaker 4>Washington Post is be on the side of the user

0:34:42.520 --> 0:34:45.640
<v Speaker 4>r and like, help you fight back when you can, right,

0:34:45.800 --> 0:34:48.320
<v Speaker 4>And like, I think that's that's super important.

0:34:49.040 --> 0:34:51.680
<v Speaker 1>And the second is what do you want to take

0:34:51.680 --> 0:34:53.160
<v Speaker 1>aways from the twenty three meters story?

0:34:54.000 --> 0:34:57.600
<v Speaker 4>One, perhaps we shouldn't have all sent our DNA to

0:34:58.920 --> 0:35:04.320
<v Speaker 4>Silicon Valley corporation that has Silicon Valley Corporation values and

0:35:05.239 --> 0:35:08.600
<v Speaker 4>ways of doing business. And the bigger one is that,

0:35:09.120 --> 0:35:11.799
<v Speaker 4>like we've been talking about here, that it's really hard

0:35:11.840 --> 0:35:16.000
<v Speaker 4>to know in any given moment what your data could

0:35:16.040 --> 0:35:18.480
<v Speaker 4>be useful for at some point in the future. And

0:35:18.560 --> 0:35:23.120
<v Speaker 4>so the only really reasonable thing to do to protect

0:35:23.160 --> 0:35:26.480
<v Speaker 4>yourself is to allow as little of it as possible

0:35:26.520 --> 0:35:29.880
<v Speaker 4>to be collected, which sounds like an insane person thing

0:35:29.960 --> 0:35:32.759
<v Speaker 4>to say in our modern economy when we're literally being

0:35:32.840 --> 0:35:37.040
<v Speaker 4>watched in every single potential dimension. I once did a

0:35:37.080 --> 0:35:40.400
<v Speaker 4>piece for the Post where I hacked into my iPhone

0:35:40.440 --> 0:35:42.279
<v Speaker 4>to watch what it did while I was sleeping at night.

0:35:42.600 --> 0:35:45.520
<v Speaker 4>Oh wow, and saw it sending data out to like

0:35:46.080 --> 0:35:48.279
<v Speaker 4>just like hundreds of like data brokers and all these

0:35:48.440 --> 0:35:50.319
<v Speaker 4>are sorts of things. So it was terrifying. It wasn't

0:35:50.320 --> 0:35:52.640
<v Speaker 4>even using the phone, but it was, you know, it

0:35:52.680 --> 0:35:55.560
<v Speaker 4>was communicating all this personal information about me. So how

0:35:55.560 --> 0:35:57.520
<v Speaker 4>do we deal with that fact? This runs a little

0:35:57.520 --> 0:35:59.759
<v Speaker 4>bit inttention of like I love technology. I want to

0:35:59.840 --> 0:36:04.359
<v Speaker 4>use is a cool phone, and I have seventy five

0:36:04.400 --> 0:36:07.560
<v Speaker 4>connected gadgets in my home that make all sorts of

0:36:07.560 --> 0:36:09.719
<v Speaker 4>cool things happen. I think the answer is you just

0:36:09.760 --> 0:36:14.280
<v Speaker 4>have to be vigilant, and you need the help of regulations.

0:36:14.640 --> 0:36:18.120
<v Speaker 4>And so that's you know, to that have our interest

0:36:18.160 --> 0:36:20.279
<v Speaker 4>at heart to sort of put boundaries around what these

0:36:20.280 --> 0:36:20.880
<v Speaker 4>companies can do.

0:36:20.960 --> 0:36:22.720
<v Speaker 3>And that's why I'm.

0:36:22.080 --> 0:36:24.760
<v Speaker 4>Here to sing the praises of the California Privacy Protection

0:36:25.080 --> 0:36:28.360
<v Speaker 4>Law and hopeful that we can maybe get some some

0:36:28.440 --> 0:36:30.360
<v Speaker 4>more Jeffery, thank.

0:36:30.160 --> 0:36:32.000
<v Speaker 2>You, Thank you so much, Jeffery, and thank you for

0:36:32.040 --> 0:36:34.359
<v Speaker 2>helping me do something that I should have done many

0:36:34.440 --> 0:36:36.000
<v Speaker 2>days ago. You bet.

0:36:41.120 --> 0:36:43.200
<v Speaker 1>That's it for this week for tech Stuff. I'm most

0:36:43.239 --> 0:36:44.760
<v Speaker 1>Flosian and I'm care Price.

0:36:45.239 --> 0:36:48.360
<v Speaker 2>This episode was produced by Eliza Dennis and Victoria Dominguez.

0:36:48.680 --> 0:36:51.719
<v Speaker 2>It was executive produced by me oz Vaalashan and Kate

0:36:51.760 --> 0:36:55.560
<v Speaker 2>Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvel for iHeart Podcasts. The

0:36:55.640 --> 0:36:58.920
<v Speaker 2>engineer is Bihied Fraser and Kyle Murdoch mixed this episode

0:36:59.080 --> 0:36:59.920
<v Speaker 2>and he also wrote our.

0:36:59.840 --> 0:37:03.439
<v Speaker 1>Thea Join us next Wednesday for a very special edition

0:37:03.480 --> 0:37:05.920
<v Speaker 1>of tech Stuff The Story when we'll share an in

0:37:05.960 --> 0:37:09.840
<v Speaker 1>depth conversation with Zach Brown, the CEO of McLaren Racing

0:37:10.280 --> 0:37:14.040
<v Speaker 1>from the McLaren Technology Center. So f one fans tune

0:37:14.120 --> 0:37:17.040
<v Speaker 1>in and please rate, review, and reach out to us

0:37:17.080 --> 0:37:19.799
<v Speaker 1>at tech Stuff podcast at gmail dot com. We really

0:37:19.800 --> 0:37:20.480
<v Speaker 1>want to hear from you.