WEBVTT - What Happens When You Accidentally Take Someone's Life? 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:02.720 Hey, fam I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:06.120 Red Table Pop podcast all your favorite episodes from the 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:10.239 Facebook watch show in audio produced by Westbrook Audio and 0:00:10.360 --> 0:00:13.360 I Heart Radio. Please don't forget to rate and review 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:18.200 on Apple Podcasts. We've all been prolified by the news 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:25.479 of Alec Baldwin killing cinematographer Helena Hutchins. Accidental killings have 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:37.519 been over thirty thousand times a year. What's your emergency. 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:41.800 They didn't know that I was a killer. They just 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:45.080 knew me as the math teacher. That moment, with the 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:47.760 smoke clearing and seeing my brother's body on the ground 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:52.599 that I can still taste gunpowder, I flipped my car. 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:57.280 My girlfriend died in the accident that I caused. Eight 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:02.160 year old boy jarreted into the road and I hit 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:06.200 him and he died before he reached the hospital. I 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:11.880 had taken a child from his mother, caused them oceans 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:16.200 of grief. Can you imagine killing someone by mistake? If 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:19.760 I could speak to the Baldwin family, I would say, 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:25.800 we're here for the nitty grids, you know what I mean. 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:30.160 We've all been deeply sad and horrified by the news 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:34.120 Alec Baldwin shot and killed cinematographer Helena Hutchins on the 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:38.039 set of the movie Rust. I am horrified for everybody 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:40.280 that's involved to me and I work on the set 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:44.000 a lot with guns and they're usually really fierce protocols. 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:47.119 It was shocking. I didn't understand and I still don't 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:53.320 quite understand how that could happen. In Have you always 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:57.640 felt safe and set? Always? Really always, because usually the 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:00.960 prop master will come and show you the gun and 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:04.600 they'll demonstrate not I always have them demonstrating look inside 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:09.200 of the barrel. They'll put the blanks in while you're watching. 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:11.079 So you got training on how to use the gun. 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:12.960 I got training on how to use the gun and 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:16.839 also training on what I should be looking for in 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:21.200 order to handle a hot weapon on set. Right, do 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:24.919 you ever handle up a real gun? They're all real? 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:28.720 Are there times when there are real bullets? No? No, 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:32.720 there should see that's the thing that should never happen. 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:38.320 Helena's tragic death should like on a shocking statistic, accidental 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:45.120 killing happens over thirty thousand times a year. That's crazy. 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:48.880 That's a lot. So meet John Arthur Green and Jennifer 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:52.880 Eikenhorst who know all too well what Alec Baldwin must 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:56.079 be feeling like. Jennifer, a high school math teacher and 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:59.200 Mama four had just picked up her daughter from volleyball 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:14.240 and tragedy struck motorcycle Bokay, John, a musician who competed 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:17.360 on American Idol, will be forever haunted by a fatal 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:19.720 mistake that took the life of someone he loved the 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:23.760 most in the world. John, let's start with you. So, Um, 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:26.639 we grew up in North Carolina and you know, country 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:29.800 family and worked the farm. And both my parents are 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:32.680 Southern Baptist ministers. And when I was eight years old, 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:35.240 that was my parents wedding anniversary and they had left 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:38.920 my brother and I home on that night. Um, we 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:41.200 were playing cops and robbers, you know, as kids do. 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:43.920 And um, and we always handled the guns. I mean 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:47.480 the guns were always safe and never loaded, and we 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:50.320 always were taught how to clean them and taught how 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:53.640 to shoot, and also taught put him, put him away, 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:55.720 picked up the gun and called him in the room. 0:03:55.760 --> 0:04:01.840 And when I pulled the trigger, it went off. And yeah, 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:05.560 like that moment with the smoke clearing and seeing my 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:09.840 brother's body on the ground, I can still taste gunpowder. 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:13.240 He's bleeding. I held him for his last couple of breaths. 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:15.360 He was thirteen, five years older than me, and he 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:18.680 was my best friend. We did everything together. When the 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:21.480 cops got there, I remember being petrified, right, being like, 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:24.120 I can't Please, don't tell my parents, Please don't tell 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:26.039 my parents. And not because I thought, I was like, 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:32.120 they'll kill me my dad because the gun was loaded. 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:34.200 They came for him too, I mean, they tried to 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:38.520 charge me, and I remember my mom standing up and saying, gentlemen, 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:41.800 this conversation is over. We're the adults. If you want 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:47.440 anybody to be charged, you charge us. Goodbye. Yeah. The 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:51.119 day I went back to school, which was like maybe 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:53.760 a couple of weeks after it happened, right, the girl 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:57.440 who I had like the biggest crush on, she called 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:01.200 me a murderer. And for a long time time, that's 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:07.840 that's what yeah, And that's that's the narrative that kept 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:10.320 playing over and over and over again. Every time I 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:12.720 looked in the mirror, I hated what I saw. And 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:17.039 this is the conversation with Alec. Right, So the media, 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.839 she killed someone. It was an accident, yes, but people 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:24.120 are going to say you murdered him, you did this, 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:27.640 you did that, because they have to label something. Yeah, John, 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:30.960 did you ever feel like you had to keep your 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:35.080 story a secret? I mean I lied about my story 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:38.120 for a long time because I didn't want anybody else 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:39.920 to call me a murderer. And I mean I made 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:41.880 up I made up stories that somebody came in and 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:45.000 shot my brother. We should have all of us been 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:48.440 in therapy immediately, and um, and we weren't. And that 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:51.680 was something we thought that we could kind of handle 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:55.440 it right here. And everything became a coping mechanism, you know, 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:58.920 Drugs became for me. Sex became a coping mechanism, alcohol 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:00.560 and any type of subs. And the fact of the 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:03.600 matter is I should be dead, and quite a few 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:08.320 times over I used my industry. I was TV, film 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:11.159 and the entertainment industry. I was laying all these really 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:14.359 dark roles because at that point, it was like I 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:17.240 just wanted to take my insides and throw them out. 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:20.960 I didn't want to feel it. It was so painful, 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:22.400 and I was like, I know I'm going to die 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:25.400 because I'm doing so many drugs at this point, you know, 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:29.440 it's it's inevitable. What was your rock bottom? When I 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:32.320 was sixteen, I found out that my dad was cheating 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:35.719 on my mom and had Parkinson's in the same night, uh, 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:38.520 at the same time. And so at sixteen, I had 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:42.320 all of this anger and and and and brokenness. My 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:44.680 brother's dead and and I have shame from that, and 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:47.320 I'm unworthy of that. But now my father has left me. 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:51.760 He died December two thousand and nineteen. We never got 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:53.880 to sit down and be like, yo, unpack it, like 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:56.560 this is what happened, fathered a son and like man 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:59.880 to man. We never had that that real moment. I 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:03.960 had to officiate his funeral, And that was my rock bottle. 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:06.760 When I sat up there and I go, I have 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:08.880 not I don't, I don't, I don't know what I'm doing. 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:11.920 Me and this man had such a hard relationship. We 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:15.320 can't be mended right now. I didn't know if if 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:18.040 he really could forget, forgave me or not. You know, 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:20.280 I wasn't able to have a conversation with him. Yeah, 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:22.880 I felt like I had killed my dad's son. That's 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:25.680 what I thought, That's what I felt. I was so 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:28.280 tunnel vision in my pain, and he was still in 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:33.120 his pain and in his heard of, you know, feeling 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:36.640 responsible losing his son, and in that moment, I go, no, 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:39.440 this is this is the man that I'm going to 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:41.520 be and I'm not going to succumb to all this stuff. 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:43.560 I'm not going to fall backwards. When he died, I 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:46.880 knew that that was my time to step up. I 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:50.080 started messaging people that I really trusted in the medical 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:52.720 field and I said, I need your best PTSD therapist 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:56.440 that you have ever encountered. It was a long process. 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:59.520 Extensive therapy came in with that, and and and and 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:02.880 you know, support groups and a bunch of things. Were 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:06.280 you able to have that kind of deep dive with 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:11.240 your mom? Oh, that's my girl, That's that's my that's it. 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:14.160 That's the power in my story is the fact that 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:18.320 I'm here, I'm still here. You're still then, like, and 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:21.880 I'm here and I'm breathing, and I'm coming into a 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:25.760 place where I'm stepping into feeling like that unworthiness is 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:29.520 like not going to hold it's grip me an what 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:32.199 I'm saying, but I mean, for a long time, I 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:34.800 didn't feel worthy of love, feel worthy of giving love, 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:39.240 feeling worthy of breath you know, Jennifer, I know that 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:41.640 you had picked up your daughter from a volleyball game 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:45.200 and then what happened after that. So, my daughter had 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:48.040 a volleyball game and a friend of mine was going 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:50.920 to bring her to me, but plans change that night 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:55.280 ten minutes before this accident happened. I mean, we just 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:58.280 pivoted to me going to get her, and we were 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:01.319 care free, you know, to know about her volleyball game. 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:03.840 She finally got her serve over the net and I 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:07.360 pulled out of my friend's driveway. It was dark country road, 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:12.120 and I came to the stop sign and I pulled 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:15.600 out into an intersection. And what I didn't know was 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:18.720 that there was a man coming up over the hill 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:22.880 and um, his motorcycle collided with my car. And when 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:26.679 I came out of the entrance, I didn't understand what happened. 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:30.760 It was so fast and it was like our car 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:35.000 suddenly illuminated with light. And I remember looking over at 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:39.400 my little girl and I braced for impact, thinking this 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:43.600 is it. Then I just felt this bump. I remember 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:46.760 just being stun because there was no crash, there was 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:51.120 no brooch jolt, and I looked at my rear view mirror, 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:58.760 and then I and I put it together and I said, 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:02.520 mommy's gotta go help him. I just grabbed my phone 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:07.640 and ran to this man and styled nine on one 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:10.320 and I was screaming. Helped me. I just held his 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:12.839 hand even when the ambulance, I just didn't want to 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:15.400 let go of his hands, and I prayed over him 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:18.840 and I did everything that I could, and he passed 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:24.160 away two days later. And I'll never understand everything had 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:29.000 to align just so, because what we found out later 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:32.280 through the investigation was that there's a divot in that hill, 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:36.760 and their hypothesis is when I looked left, he was 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:42.280 in that It's like being in a blond. Yes, I'll 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:46.800 always regret not treating that intersection like it was a 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:50.080 busy road. What was part of your process of being 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:55.520 able to heal from this? The first three six months, 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:58.040 I didn't know how it was going to still live like. 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:00.840 It was so heavy. I thought, well, surely my heart 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:04.880 will give out. I'll just die early. And I remember 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:07.280 there was a moment where I had just stayed in 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:10.720 bed all day for weeks. I was like, well, maybe 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:14.240 if I just stay away when I do go and 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:16.600 leave this earth, it will be easier on my children. 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:19.960 But like coping, I think originally like just my family 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:23.720 surrounded me and even then my faith. I mean, I 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:27.120 love the Lord. I was so like, Lord, you abandoned me. 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:31.400 You abandoned me, this is not my purpose. Like wait 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:33.679 a minute, you did not bring me on this earth 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:38.480 to hurt this family. Because he had children, he was 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:42.360 a father, he was a veteran. I think, um, my 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:45.520 biggest shame was that I had judged people who were 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:50.240 in scenarios like this. Here I am asking for mercy, 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.560 asking for grace, and I didn't feel worthy and even 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:56.480 as a mom, I didn't feel worthy to have my children. 0:11:56.679 --> 0:12:00.600 It felt like total devastation. I was totally prepared to 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:03.560 walk up my house and be stoned. Did you lose 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:07.080 a lot of family of friends over this incident? People 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:11.200 got weird, My inner circle got smaller. I think there 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:14.240 were people who were like, mm, I don't know how 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:16.960 to give you compassion, because if I give you compassion, 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:20.800 I am not compassionate towards a family. They don't know 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:24.280 how to share right Because I'm the perpetrator. My whole 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:27.400 identity was gone because I'm a school teacher, a wife, 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:29.480 a mom, and then all of a sudden, I was like, 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:33.800 I could go to prison for this every aspect of 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:39.880 your life right, And my happy place was teaching because 0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:43.920 these kids didn't know. They didn't know that I was 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:47.200 a killer. They just knew me as the math teacher. 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:51.120 Can I ask your Jennifer, if you had any interaction 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:56.880 with the family, it's really unfortunate, but you're advised immediately. 0:12:57.120 --> 0:13:01.680 We are told by law enforcement lawyers, you do not 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.520 say anything. And I did it anyway. I had my 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:07.600 own memorial because I knew I couldn't go to his memorial, 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:10.720 and I just wrote a card and a letter and 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:13.240 I gave us a victim's services and I asked them 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:15.840 to please give it to the family. I was facing 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:19.360 possible charges because he had the right of way. So 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:23.800 here I am also facing the shame destroying my family 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:26.640 to where you don't feel worthy. But if I were 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:30.120 to pursue them, I feel like it would be selfish. 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:34.280 That is their healing, and I want to protect them 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:37.040 and I would never want them to say, oh, I 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:41.200 forgive you to make me feel better. You know, I mean, 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:44.319 that's wrong, and at first that's what you want, like, oh, 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:46.400 I just want to tell him sorry, but I couldn't 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:49.920 say sorry enough. We've done the worst of the worst 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:55.400 to a family, the unforgivable. And if I can say, 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:59.480 you know what, I accept who I am. I'm still guilty, 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:03.160 but I've let go of the shame. I've let go 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:05.520 of the shame. And part of that is by sharing 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:09.000 my story. And when you get free, if you get 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:13.080 you share, you share it. That's real talk. I'm just 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:16.680 so inspired by just the fact that both of you 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:20.880 are reaching for for that faith and reaching for the light. 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:24.320 Because even with my little things that be happening to me, 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:26.120 and I'll be getting all the present stuff and you 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:28.360 can go into you can take yourself into a really 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:31.440 dark space and to have come through something like this, 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:36.600 it takes work, and not every day is gonna be easy, 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:40.640 but you choose it right there you go. So this 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:45.040 l A. Tom's headline grabbed my attention. The anguish of 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:48.760 unintentional killing and how Alec Baldwin can learn to cope 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:52.760 with it. It was written by psychologist Marianne Gray, who 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:56.840 revealed I know this because I too, am an accidental killer. 0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:00.760 Marianne is the founder of Accidental Impacts, a support group 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:04.560 for those who have unintentionally harmed someone. Jennifer says the 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:08.560 community Maryanne created has been a lifeline. Jennifer, I know 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:11.160 you have never met her in person. I never met 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:18.280 her in person. Hi, Hi, welcome jention. Oh my goodness, 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:22.880 what a pleasure you know? I know, so, Mary, I 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:25.440 can you tell us your story. I was a graduate 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:29.720 student living in Ohio and I was driving home one 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:35.840 beautiful spring afternoon along a rural highway when an eight 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:41.360 year old boy who family lived alongside that highway darted 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:46.280 into the road and I hit him, and he died 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:52.080 before he reached the hospital. His name was Brian. Needless 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:59.760 to say, his family was devastated, and I also was devastated. Course, 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:04.520 my mood kind of went back and forth from tremendous 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:09.960 grief too absolute terror of what would happen to me, 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:15.840 as well as the guilt sit in. Almost right away, 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:20.600 I just felt that I did not deserve sympathy, I 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:27.160 did not deserve compassion or support. So I almost immediately 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:35.080 began to withdraw. And so what happened was all my thoughts, 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:38.920 which some of which were pretty crazy, about myself and 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:43.680 my feelings. It all went underground and on the outside, 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:47.800 I tried to act like your basic, normal twenty two 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:52.160 year old and everything is fine. But I'm getting over it. 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:57.200 I'm doing okay. I'm a stronger person, but inside I 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:01.120 was just a mess. I couldn't drive. I would be 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:03.880 so frightened. I thought I would see people in the 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:07.720 roadway and I slam on my brakes, which is really dangerous. 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:11.840 And so I sold my car. But I didn't say 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:15.199 I'm selling my car because I'm afraid. I said, oh, 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:17.320 I'm selling my car because it's not good for the 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:22.320 environment and I should just take the bus. And that 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:28.199 continued for years, that divide between the innermy, which was 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:36.280 self punishing, self hating, frightened, and the outer me, where 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:38.960 I looked like, oh, you know, I finished my PhD, 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:41.920 I got a great job, I married a good guy. 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:45.240 You know, my life looked like it was working pretty well. 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:50.040 But it wasn't. And the cost of that is a 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:55.080 tremendous loneliness. You can't live an authentic life if you're hiding. 0:17:55.520 --> 0:18:00.680 And so as I began my own process of finally 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:05.320 dealing with it and speaking out and healing and recovering, 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:09.480 I thought, I don't want anybody to be as alone 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:13.280 as I felt, and that's a big part of why 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:17.320 it started accidental impacts. I wanted to make amends and 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:22.119 I wanted to make the world a better place. Marianne, 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:25.399 you did mention that there was a level of self 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:30.439 punishment and self hatred. What did that look like? I 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:32.879 did not have children. That was a big way I 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:37.160 punished myself. I felt, first of all that I had 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:41.199 taken a child from his mother, that I had caused 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:46.920 them oceans of grief, and that I could not give 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:51.639 myself that that joy, that I had to deny myself 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:56.680 the joy of my own children. More generally, I did 0:18:56.720 --> 0:19:00.240 not want to allow myself happiness. And every time I 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:05.080 started feeling that unbridled joy, I would stop myself and 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:09.280 I would say, you killed a child, Marianne, you killed 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:11.720 a child. You do not deserve to feel like this. 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:14.600 I think that's a very common thing with with trauma 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:17.760 and PTSD, and anything that felt good is no, I'm 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:23.679 not that's the voice. The voice is not worthy. I 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:28.400 had so many negative voices. It was like a jumble. 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:32.080 I kept saying, you're a killer, and I would ask myself, 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:35.080 like Lord and my killer. I didn't understand how to 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:37.639 put the language to it. So I started just writing 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:40.600 each thought that kept reoccurring, those intrusive thoughts, had to 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:42.760 write them down, and I bring this notebook to my 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:46.040 therapist and we'd go line by line, thought by thought, 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:49.480 and one day I was like, what did I believe before? 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:53.159 Because like for thirty six years, I believed A, B, 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:56.840 and C. And I would take those thoughts one by one. 0:19:56.960 --> 0:19:58.600 I would have to look back and be like, is 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:01.879 this rational? Does this? Does this line up to my 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:05.399 belief system, my faith? Or is this something that's a 0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:07.000 mental health issue and I need to let it go? 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:11.600 How does it feel to be able to interact with 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:14.720 other people have gone through a similar experience, because I 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:18.520 would imagine that it has to be a relief, yes, lifeline. 0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:21.880 When I when I found mary Anne Sight, I had 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:25.159 been praying for the Lord to show me someone like 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:28.720 myself that I wasn't alone, because you feel like you're 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:32.480 going crazy. I mean, every time I try to share 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:34.440 my story, it would be like, well did you know him? 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:37.639 And I would just be like no. But I was 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:41.280 weeping and grieving as if it was so deep and 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:44.000 no one could understand it. So then I thought I 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:46.560 was something wrong with me. I did want to make 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:49.560 a point. The victim is a person who died, and 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:54.520 the people grieving for that person. We're suffering, and we're anguished, 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:57.679 and we're despairing, and we're in need of support. But 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:03.240 I don't consider us victims the person whose life was taken. 0:21:03.880 --> 0:21:09.800 It is about them, and I believe our hearts are 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:15.960 big enough that we could have compassion for everybody. Men. Yeah, 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:19.760 I was thinking about Also, we had a close associate 0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:24.040 at one point whose steps on accidentally grabbed a gun 0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:28.160 and he shot his brother as well. When I think 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:32.280 about so many people from our community who run into 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:35.280 these incidents, you know, for black people, we have to 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:38.560 feel the comfort that's right to even come out. And 0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:42.200 I think a lot of times I would imagine that 0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:45.560 there has been accidental killings where people have not been 0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:48.000 able to talk about it, have not been able to 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:52.040 admit it because of the fear of the repercussions and 0:21:52.200 --> 0:21:55.240 because of the fear that they will lack the support 0:21:55.880 --> 0:21:58.679 and the willingness to be open to the understanding that 0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:02.520 it was an accident. Know, there's a lot of research 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:07.280 out there that indicates that when emotionally upsetting events occur 0:22:08.200 --> 0:22:14.040 and when the person involved is perceived as other, we're 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:18.879 even more likely as observers and onlookers to assign more 0:22:18.880 --> 0:22:24.800 blad add to that the bias that exists in our society. 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:28.600 I would be willing to bet that people of color 0:22:28.720 --> 0:22:32.879 are far more likely in these circumstances to be arrested 0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:38.600 and then to serve time exactly. And so we're very 0:22:38.680 --> 0:22:42.720 eager to increase diversity within our community, and we're making 0:22:42.760 --> 0:22:45.800 some steps to do that. So, Marianne, you wrote an 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:49.920 article about how Alec could heal. What do you think 0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:53.120 that journey looks like? Okay, I love the word journey. 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:56.120 First of all, it is a journey, and I think 0:22:56.160 --> 0:23:00.520 there are three main challenges. The first challenge is managing trauma. 0:23:01.440 --> 0:23:07.679 Most people that I've encountered who have unintentionally harmed another 0:23:07.760 --> 0:23:14.800 person are traumatized themselves. When you're traumatized, it's all encompassing. 0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:19.800 It's not just your emotions. You can't think clearly. Your 0:23:19.880 --> 0:23:24.040 body is affected, your sleep is affected. So I truly 0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:31.040 believe that nothing much can happen until the trauma is managed. 0:23:31.160 --> 0:23:34.600 And there's super good treatments out there right now for trauma. 0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:40.000 So I really encouraged people to seek therapy. Getting the 0:23:40.119 --> 0:23:44.119 trauma under control allows us to think, and then we 0:23:44.160 --> 0:23:47.800 can say what was I responsible for, what is my fault, 0:23:47.800 --> 0:23:50.600 what was my fault? What does this mean for my life? 0:23:51.119 --> 0:23:54.640 And you could start to kind of journey down that 0:23:54.760 --> 0:23:57.600 road to some kind of healing or what I like 0:23:57.680 --> 0:24:00.359 to say is peace with yourself and you more old. 0:24:01.000 --> 0:24:05.600 But until the trauma is managed, that's very difficult. The 0:24:05.760 --> 0:24:10.280 second challenge is what I refer to as moral injury. 0:24:10.320 --> 0:24:14.639 It's a toxic stew of feelings when we let ourselves down, 0:24:15.119 --> 0:24:17.479 when we fail to live up to our own moral 0:24:17.560 --> 0:24:21.960 standards and expectations. So what happens with moral injury, Well, 0:24:22.160 --> 0:24:25.320 we can be self destructive, we can even be suicidal, 0:24:25.440 --> 0:24:30.000 or we can abuse substances and we deny ourselves happiness. 0:24:30.280 --> 0:24:35.240 But I believe that guilt when we harm someone is appropriate. 0:24:35.600 --> 0:24:38.880 We would we think about someone who unintentionally ran over 0:24:38.920 --> 0:24:43.000 a child and didn't feel guilty. So so I don't 0:24:43.040 --> 0:24:45.199 say we have to get rid of our guilt. I 0:24:45.240 --> 0:24:48.560 talk about channeling our guilt, and we do that, I 0:24:48.600 --> 0:24:54.440 believe through the third step, which is honoring our victim. 0:24:54.520 --> 0:24:57.560 And there's so many ways to do that. Some people 0:24:58.200 --> 0:25:03.119 invest in real pigeon. In spirituality, many people choose service. 0:25:03.359 --> 0:25:07.639 Some people invest in creative expression. I think you've done that, John, 0:25:07.760 --> 0:25:11.720 And many people just make a very mindful and conscious 0:25:11.760 --> 0:25:18.199 decision to live with greater compassion and kindness. Not that 0:25:18.240 --> 0:25:21.600 we're not compassionate and kind already, but can we We 0:25:21.600 --> 0:25:28.920 could always. If I could speak to the Baldwin family, 0:25:29.520 --> 0:25:32.080 I would say, I really hope he's got the support 0:25:32.119 --> 0:25:36.880 of people watching him, because this takes time. It takes time. 0:25:37.080 --> 0:25:42.600 I had people watching me, and you had people. They're 0:25:42.640 --> 0:25:45.720 sitting in the fire, sitting in the pit because there's 0:25:45.800 --> 0:25:49.679