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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. It is not brought to you by spoons. Instead,

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Speaker 1: it is supported by the generous contributions of people like you,

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Speaker 1: our listeners on Patreon. Visit patreon dot com slash thinking

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Speaker 1: Sideways to learn more Thinking Sideways. I don't stories of

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Speaker 1: things we simply don't know the answer too. Hey there everybody,

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Speaker 1: and welcome again to the podcast. I am Steve, of course,

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Speaker 1: as always, joined by Joe. And that's it. Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: antern didn't work out. Yeah, it turns out, get a

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Speaker 1: visa problem. Um. So, as always, this week we have

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Speaker 1: another mystery for you. Today we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: the disappearance of Ben McDaniels. And uh been dispired after

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Speaker 1: he entered a he was diving, and he disappeared after

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Speaker 1: he entered a underwater cave on the eighteenth of August,

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Speaker 1: and he never came back out, and he never came

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Speaker 1: back out, well that we know of, he was never

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Speaker 1: seen again. Who was never seen again? Now, if you

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Speaker 1: are at all a claustrophobic or be afraid of the water,

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Speaker 1: or worse both, you're gonna get the Bejesus scared out

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Speaker 1: of you with this story to just warn you up

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Speaker 1: ahead of deep water, deep water. Yeah, hopefully none of

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Speaker 1: our listeners have babies. That's so weird that I get it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I totally get that weird. We need to stop doing

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Speaker 1: the podcast because you're understanding my logic all of a sudden.

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Speaker 1: It's not good. It's creepy. Yeah, well, how does this

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Speaker 1: story go? Well, before we get into the story, actually,

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Speaker 1: this is a listeners suggestion, So I do want to

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Speaker 1: say thank you to both Eden and Emily. They are

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Speaker 1: currently the only ones listed as suggesting it. You very much.

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Speaker 1: Anybody else suggested and we forgot to put journalists. Sorry

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Speaker 1: about that, Yeah, because this was a great story, wild

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Speaker 1: right you two. No, I've been working on this for

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Speaker 1: a month or more now, Yeah, good story. So taking

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Speaker 1: it from the beginning, Ben McDaniels was a thirty year

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Speaker 1: old man. He was originally from Tennessee and the year

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Speaker 1: two thousand nine was a really bad year for Ben.

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Speaker 1: He uh, he got divorced, which I imagine took a

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Speaker 1: lot of his things. His business went under, which I'm

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Speaker 1: sure took a lot of his things as well, and

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Speaker 1: then he lost his home, which would have taken one

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Speaker 1: of his big things. So he had a really bad year.

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Speaker 1: This was also one single year, and he had some

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Speaker 1: tax problems too. Yeah, the business going under his I

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Speaker 1: think it was a construction business, if I remember correct.

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Speaker 1: And when it failed, he had a tax bill between

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Speaker 1: the state of Tennessee and the Feds of somewhere around

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Speaker 1: fifty thousand, which is a hefty, hefty bill. So he

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Speaker 1: didn't really know what to do. So, doing what a

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Speaker 1: lot of people do, he moved back in with his parents.

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Speaker 1: His mom and dad were very gracious and they took

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Speaker 1: him in and after a while they said, well, listen,

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Speaker 1: you need to kind of figure your stuff out. You

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Speaker 1: need to get your act together. Tell you what, and

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Speaker 1: as they called it, why don't you take a sabbatical?

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Speaker 1: What a sabbatical from unemployment, from life, from life as

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Speaker 1: Actually it's okay. They have a home in Florida since yeah,

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Speaker 1: their second home. It's in Santa Rosa. It was a

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Speaker 1: condo if I remember correct, And they said, go to

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Speaker 1: the condo, live in Florida, will pay your expenses, will

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Speaker 1: cover your living costs. And imagine they gave him money

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Speaker 1: to you know, spending cash. Absolutely have some money though

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Speaker 1: they did have money. They have by the way, Santa Rosa,

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Speaker 1: just to spare having to look at Google Earth. It's

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Speaker 1: on the Gulf coast of Florida. Yeah, yeah, it's not

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Speaker 1: on the Atlantic coast. Yeah yes, um so yeah, Ben, Ben,

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Speaker 1: you know, okay, be hard to turn that down. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I really would. So he went to he went to Florida,

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Speaker 1: and while he was there, he began to indulge an

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Speaker 1: old hobby, which was scuba diving. From the stuff that

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Speaker 1: his family has put out, Ben began diving at the

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Speaker 1: age of fifteen, so he seems to have been an

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Speaker 1: experienced diver. He wasn't a professional, but he was, you know,

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Speaker 1: an amateur diver. And I don't have a sense of

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Speaker 1: if how you know how frequently that continued. One he

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Speaker 1: don't in Florida, it was he was definitely diving, like

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Speaker 1: all the time. That was pretty much all he was doing.

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Speaker 1: It seemed like, and it seemed like when he was

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Speaker 1: a kid, he really enjoyed it. So he kind of

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Speaker 1: got maybe he picked up an old hobby. But I

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily have the sense that this is something he'd

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Speaker 1: been doing avidly the entire time. I would not disagree

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Speaker 1: with that at all. In a place like Tennessee, it

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Speaker 1: might be tough to find good places to go because

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Speaker 1: I know, I know people around here who are scuba divers,

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Speaker 1: and there's really not much of any place to scuba

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Speaker 1: diving if we don't yeah deep deep lakes or what

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Speaker 1: really make good or beautiful underwater landscapes or what you're

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Speaker 1: after interesting things. So I understand why he might not

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Speaker 1: have done it so much, because you don't want to

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Speaker 1: jump in the river and scuba dive. Yeah, not so fun. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: also like a waste of resources. You can snorkele in it.

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Speaker 1: You should just snorkle in it. Um. So well, Okay,

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Speaker 1: So Ben, he's scuba diving, and he evidently didn't like

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Speaker 1: diving in saltwater, which I can't hold against him. Saltwater rashes, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's gonna it's gonna take a little physical toll

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Speaker 1: on you. Plus the buoyancy issue. I was just gonna say,

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Speaker 1: the buoyancy issue. Yeah. Ben was not a small guy.

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Speaker 1: I think he. I think Ben was like six foot ballpark,

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Speaker 1: which would and I think it was something like a

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Speaker 1: hundred eight to ten. Okay. I knew that he wasn't

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Speaker 1: a skinny guy by any means, So, but he didn't

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Speaker 1: he didn't like to go there. So he liked freshwater dive.

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Speaker 1: So what's he do. He finds a place near him

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Speaker 1: called Vortech Spring because it's freshwater. It's absolutely beautiful and

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Speaker 1: it is fresh for those who are going to pull

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Speaker 1: a Joe and go to Google Earth and look for

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Speaker 1: Vortech Springs. It's just outside of Pasta Leon, Florida, so

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Speaker 1: it wasn't too far away from where he lived. And

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Speaker 1: as Devin said, it's really pretty. I mean it's a giant,

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a natural spring. So it is cool

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Speaker 1: water upwelling out of the earth. Yeah, that's not really

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Speaker 1: cool in my book. Well, when it's a hundred percent

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Speaker 1: humidity and a hundred degrees that way right, we're not

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Speaker 1: talking Oregon Coast cool. Correct. It is very nice to

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Speaker 1: swim in, and in fact, its main draw is for

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Speaker 1: people to swim in it. They've got zip lines and

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Speaker 1: stuff like that. I mean it looks like a fun

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Speaker 1: place to go. Oh yeah, I'd like to go. But

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Speaker 1: and I'm sure the water was just all fresh and

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Speaker 1: clear because it get getting changed out. I mean it

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Speaker 1: was up well from the aquifer. And then that is

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Speaker 1: exactly why it is so popular with divers because open

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Speaker 1: water divers can go there. The water temperature is consistent,

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Speaker 1: the current is gentle. It's consistent but gentle, and therefore

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Speaker 1: it's not dirty. There's lots of aquatic life to check out.

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Speaker 1: So it's really really interesting. And let's keep talking about

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Speaker 1: the cave because there's a couple of things that I

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Speaker 1: want to go over, one of which is the shape

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Speaker 1: of the cave. So the vortex springs. If you think

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Speaker 1: about it, it's a giant hole in the ground. There's

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Speaker 1: a big basin. It's fifty to sixty ft deep, which

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Speaker 1: equates to about fifteen and sixteen so it's fairly deep

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Speaker 1: a ways down and if you look at it in profile,

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Speaker 1: if you look at it, there's maps available which you

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Speaker 1: should look up because we're not ever going to be

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Speaker 1: able to describe it. Well no, no, but it almost

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Speaker 1: to me from the side, looks like a semi deflated

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Speaker 1: pastry bag, you know, the thing that like that you

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Speaker 1: decorate cakes with, because it's it's kind of triangular and

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Speaker 1: then it's zig zags back and forth and it's really skinny.

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Speaker 1: Devon's laughing, but she gets it, she totally gets it.

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Speaker 1: But so it goes down for for quite a bit,

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Speaker 1: nobody knows how deep the cave is and by or

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Speaker 1: how long the cave is. Is the the appropriate way

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Speaker 1: to say that, we know basically how deep it is

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Speaker 1: at the back correct. What they need to do is

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Speaker 1: is like dress up a small child in a wet

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Speaker 1: suit with tanks and everything and send it to that

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Speaker 1: skinny part. Think you're supposed to do that? I think, yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's crazy, I know, Joe. But okay. For the length

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Speaker 1: of the cave, we know that the cave is over

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Speaker 1: seventeen feet long, which again for our folks that are

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Speaker 1: to the same measurement system, it's law. At least at

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Speaker 1: least that's it's probably farther, but that's as far as

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Speaker 1: anyone has gone that we know of, and that that number,

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Speaker 1: by the way, is self reported. It's from prett reliable source,

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Speaker 1: but it's self reported for the distance. If anybody's ever

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Speaker 1: gone into a cave, as we were talking about, they

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Speaker 1: get harder and harder to go into because they get

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Speaker 1: smaller and smaller as they go, they get narrower, and

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Speaker 1: this cave is no different as it dives down the

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Speaker 1: walls and expand and contract and change shape. But they

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Speaker 1: generally continually get closer and closer together. They call them restrictions,

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Speaker 1: I think is what they call them. And I'm sorry, yeah,

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Speaker 1: bottleneckt So it's like, you know, it's a wide open

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Speaker 1: cave and then there's this like part that you have

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Speaker 1: to squeeze through and then it opens up again and

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Speaker 1: it's narrow and that can be horizontally or vertically or both. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean there are caves near us called the Caves

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Speaker 1: which do this. Um, if you've ever been in any cave,

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Speaker 1: you know what we're talking about. Yeah, there's not Ape Cave.

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Speaker 1: There's not too much of that though. It's i mean

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Speaker 1: it's good to the very end, well at the very end. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: There's another one that's only a couple of miles away

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Speaker 1: from there, called Little Red River Cave. Yeah. Have you

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Speaker 1: been there. Yeah, it's a gated cave, but but you know,

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Speaker 1: you go all the way to the end. He didn't really, Okay,

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Speaker 1: when you get it goes downward and there's a there's

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Speaker 1: it's it's a difficult, more difficult than Ape Cave, but

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Speaker 1: it keeps going downward and there's some climbing and stuff involved,

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Speaker 1: and as you get down towards the end, water starts

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Speaker 1: coming in because you go below the water table and

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Speaker 1: so there's water dripping from the ceiling and running running

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Speaker 1: down the floor and everything. And then you finally get

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Speaker 1: to this end, then it's just a lake. It's like

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Speaker 1: it ends in water, which it may continue. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: so if you put scoopy gear on and went down that,

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Speaker 1: I'm not about to, but if you wanted to, you

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Speaker 1: can see how far that thing goes. But I had

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Speaker 1: my creepiest cave experience in there. One time. I was like,

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Speaker 1: I was caved with three friends and we got to

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Speaker 1: the and then we turned around and started heading back

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Speaker 1: to the entrance and I was bringing up the rear

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Speaker 1: and suddenly way back and this is this is like

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Speaker 1: actually a distance away from the end of the cave,

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Speaker 1: and suddenly I heard this. I heard this thud coming

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Speaker 1: from behind me in the cave, and I stopped and

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Speaker 1: I looked. I never found out what it was. Definitely,

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Speaker 1: if I was looking over my shoulder a little bit

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Speaker 1: more than I normally would, butt like something heavy dropped,

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Speaker 1: like one thing dropped, like something something, and yeah, kind

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Speaker 1: of something to look on Devon's face. Yeah it was.

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Speaker 1: It was just a real soft just just sort of

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Speaker 1: a way off of the distance kind of. And I say,

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Speaker 1: I don't like somehow it lived through it. Well back

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Speaker 1: to vortex springs. Yeah, okay, So at the end or

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Speaker 1: the farthest reach that we know of the cave is

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Speaker 1: only about ten inches high, which is really be the

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Speaker 1: really small, especially if you got a bunch of gear on. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and there's and we're gonna we'll talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about the diving and styles that are required. But people

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Speaker 1: are squeezing themselves through these cracks a while carrying their

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Speaker 1: oxygen supply. So it's it's not something to be taken lightly,

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Speaker 1: and it is definitely something that you need to know

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Speaker 1: how to do before you do it. Still, don't do it. Well,

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Speaker 1: We've read enough, I know all of us have read

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Speaker 1: enough stories of people getting lost in caves. Some of

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Speaker 1: them were lucky enough to be found alive. And this

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Speaker 1: is cave diving, not just people lost in in caves

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Speaker 1: that are filled with air. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's dangerous,

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Speaker 1: crazily dangerous. I think the only way I'd do that,

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Speaker 1: I'd take some fluorescent some fluorescent green cord with me

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Speaker 1: or something like that. So I got to just run

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Speaker 1: a line the whole way. Cave divers do typically run

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Speaker 1: a cord. They tend to run a cord behind them

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Speaker 1: so they can turn around and easily retrace their path

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Speaker 1: out because it's very easy in a pitch black environment

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Speaker 1: to lose your way. Breaks or something like yeah, anything

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Speaker 1: like that. Now, for Vortech Springs, what they've done is

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Speaker 1: there was a there was a string of people who

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Speaker 1: drowned in the cave, got lost and out of air

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Speaker 1: and drowned, and so the state said we're gonna shut

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Speaker 1: you down. Probably, So what the owners of Vortex Springs

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Speaker 1: did is about three hundred feet in they put in

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Speaker 1: a gate. And that gate has it's a keyed gate.

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Speaker 1: If you present identification and certifications saying I can cave dive,

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Speaker 1: they will give you the key and let you in. Otherwise,

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Speaker 1: it's meant to stop people from going into the cave

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Speaker 1: and getting lost and dying. Now, the how effective that

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Speaker 1: gate is, it's not really high tech. It looks like

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Speaker 1: a bunch of pieces of rebar that are jammed into

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Speaker 1: the stone and happens to have a lock and a

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Speaker 1: hinged gate on it. You know, my sense of it

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Speaker 1: was that it is more to discourage than to actually

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Speaker 1: stop people. I mean, I think that if you're a

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Speaker 1: diver and you're kind of inexperienced and you're just thinking, oh,

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Speaker 1: just go to this cave blah blah blah, and you

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Speaker 1: encounter a thing that looks like that and there's a

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Speaker 1: stop sign, and it's just it's just sign that's got

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Speaker 1: the grim Reaper on it. Right, Yeah, you're you know,

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Speaker 1: instead of just the sign, which would be pretty easy

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Speaker 1: to just kind of ignore, it's fun. Yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: it's more meant to be like that symbolic, hey, don't

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Speaker 1: go pass here unless you want to die. Yeah. The

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Speaker 1: problem with the gate is it is easy to bypass,

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Speaker 1: or it is not difficult to bypass, I should say.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't say it's easy, but people have been known

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Speaker 1: to get around. Well, there's a video. Actually, there are

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Speaker 1: a couple of videos by this this guy um that

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Speaker 1: I watched, and I just wanted to bring it up

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Speaker 1: real quick. Actually, let me do real quick. Just I

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Speaker 1: just want to finish just two little bits of detail

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Speaker 1: about the cave and then we can talk about that,

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Speaker 1: because that's really important and interesting. But the only other

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Speaker 1: thing that I wanted people to know about when it

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Speaker 1: comes to the cave itself is that the depth of

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Speaker 1: the cave that we know is around a hundred fifty

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Speaker 1: feet deep. That's underwater, which would equate again that's forty five.

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Speaker 1: And that's a significant number because divers who tend to

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Speaker 1: go to a hundred and thirty feet or below typically

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Speaker 1: have to breathe not just straight a normal gas mix

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Speaker 1: of what's in the atmosphere, regular air mix. They've actually

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Speaker 1: got to do a special gas mixtures, and that's to

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Speaker 1: help stave off things for decompression issues, to bends exactly.

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Speaker 1: That was. I've been told that most divers actually always

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Speaker 1: turn around. Most A hundred thirty is the depth that

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Speaker 1: you can go. But if you want a safety cushion, correct, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: for a safety cushion, it's somewhere in that, in that range,

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Speaker 1: but that's the bottom. After that you have to be.

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Speaker 1: You should be if you well, if you don't have

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Speaker 1: if you yeah, But and then you were gonna talk

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Speaker 1: about this the gate, I know because you were looking

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Speaker 1: at the video. Yeah, I was just going to bring

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Speaker 1: up a little bit um. There's some really really interesting

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Speaker 1: videos that you should watch if you can stand to Um,

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Speaker 1: it's a little I mean, it's a little creepy. I

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Speaker 1: you know, told I was telling you guys that I

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Speaker 1: have developed a new fear um. But one of these videos,

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Speaker 1: it's not totally clear what's happening. But in one of them,

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Speaker 1: it was filmed by a guy named Nick. He and

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Speaker 1: he has a diving partner and they do these deep

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Speaker 1: water cave videos just all the time. They have a

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Speaker 1: bunch at Vortex Springs. One of them is Nick showing

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Speaker 1: how easy it is to get over the gate um

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Speaker 1: and it doesn't take a about a minute. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's a little spot where you can just do. You

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Speaker 1: have to push your tank in before you um, and

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Speaker 1: then you climb over and then you put your tank

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Speaker 1: back on um. And he does it a couple of times.

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Speaker 1: But that's it's really interesting. It's very easy. It looks

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Speaker 1: very easy once you know how to do it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it looks very very easy to me, very very easy

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Speaker 1: to get caught on that thing. It's ground, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it would be pretty easy to snag something

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Speaker 1: on it too. Yeah. Yeah, this is not something that

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Speaker 1: we're saying lightly to just go do what we're saying, don't.

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Speaker 1: This is yeah, please don't. It's just this is at

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Speaker 1: the from the videos we've seen from that time possible.

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Speaker 1: And I haven't heard anything at the gates ever been upgraded.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I suspect it has, but I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I hope probably since then. Yeah, I mean, that's super interesting.

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Speaker 1: And I have more about the videos that the guys

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Speaker 1: posted later, but I'll talk about that one. It's relevant. Okay,

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Speaker 1: sounds perfect, So let's get back to the story because

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Speaker 1: that's enough about the cave itself. Yeah. Um, and there

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Speaker 1: are maps available on the internet, so to look at

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Speaker 1: one of those, we will probably have been postal link

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00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:46,960
Speaker 1: might be one of the links. So Ben could have

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Speaker 1: been diving at Vortex Spring for up to four months.

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Speaker 1: He probably was. He probably was because he moved into

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Speaker 1: his parents house in Florida in April of that year,

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Speaker 1: and so I imagine not to long after that, I

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Speaker 1: would I'm going to guess several weeks after that started diving.

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Speaker 1: He was. It was kind of a regular around there.

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Speaker 1: He was a total regular. They knew him. He was

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Speaker 1: there almost every day, absolutely, But what he did that

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Speaker 1: is a giant no. No. From everything I know about

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Speaker 1: diving and everything I've ever read about diving is he

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Speaker 1: was so low diving now, you know, even even above

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Speaker 1: ground caving. He really don't want to do that alone. No,

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Speaker 1: there's because if something that's any kind of adventuring you

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Speaker 1: don't want to do alone, you don't. Uh, it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's a no. It's you know, you always have you

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Speaker 1: dive buddy, you always go down with somebody else. But

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Speaker 1: according to accounts that came out after the fact, Ben

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Speaker 1: was either a little bit unapproachable, maybe came off as

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Speaker 1: a jerk, or people have described him as overconfident, and

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00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:55,439
Speaker 1: so maybe that came through in a negative way. You know,

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Speaker 1: somebody just read that wrong, and so he never got

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Speaker 1: a he never made a friend to his dive. But

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Speaker 1: I almost wonder if the overconfidence really kept people from

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Speaker 1: wanting to be his dive partner. In that it read

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Speaker 1: as reckless. You don't necessarily want well not just cocky,

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Speaker 1: but I mean genuinely reckless. You don't want to have

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Speaker 1: a dive partner who's always saying, hey, let's break the

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Speaker 1: rules and do all these things. And I don't you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm not as trained as I should be, but we're

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Speaker 1: going to do this thing anyway. That's not what you

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Speaker 1: want from a dive partner. You want somebody that you're like,

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Speaker 1: very confident in their abilities. I assume he he did.

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Speaker 1: He did seem to come off by some of the

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Speaker 1: stuff that I've read and watched. He said that his

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Speaker 1: skills were much more than they were in terms of

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Speaker 1: his experience. Um, because there's a movie that we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about where he had he was trying to pass himself

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Speaker 1: off almost as a dive instructor, which he was in

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Speaker 1: no way, shape or form qualified to be. He wanted

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Speaker 1: to be, he wanted to he did, he wanted or later.

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Speaker 1: But the point is that he was acting as if

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Speaker 1: he was one, and I imagine that for people who

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Speaker 1: knew what was going on, that was really off putting.

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Speaker 1: So that that worked against him. That absolutely did not.

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Speaker 1: That behavior didn't work in his favor. Whether whether that's

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Speaker 1: what he did or not, I don't know. Well, the

364
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,639
Speaker 1: point is he wanted in by himself. Yeah, you never know.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know, Ben. Obviously, he had only been there

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Speaker 1: for four months, so he maybe didn't have enough time

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Speaker 1: to really meet people, or maybe he just liked to

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Speaker 1: dive alone. No, that's that's absolutely possible. Absolutely good idea. No. Um,

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Speaker 1: So he was like we said, though he's he's certified

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Speaker 1: to dive in open water, he's not certified to dive

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Speaker 1: in caves. Uh. And as we said, he had he

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Speaker 1: decided that what he wanted to do was become a

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Speaker 1: dive instructor. He had also expressed to his family that

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Speaker 1: he wanted to learn to cave dive and then he

375
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Speaker 1: wanted to open his own dive business. Yeah, I didn't want.

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Speaker 1: One way to learn the cave divers to do it

377
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Speaker 1: with the qualified instructor. Another way to do it is

378
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Speaker 1: to read a lot and then just do it. I'm sorry,

379
00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,919
Speaker 1: I should be clear. I'm making a joke. Yes, please

380
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:10,679
Speaker 1: do not do that. Do not do that. Okay. So

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00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:15,440
Speaker 1: if you want, I want people who are interested in

382
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 1: this to do this, which is to look up technical

383
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,160
Speaker 1: diving and look at the certifications that you have to get.

384
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:26,840
Speaker 1: And it is a huge list with a certain number

385
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,720
Speaker 1: of hours of every one of them before you can

386
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,240
Speaker 1: be and have that to your technical diving record. You

387
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,080
Speaker 1: can have that and say I can do this, Okay,

388
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:39,760
Speaker 1: it's all hours based. Ben wanted to do this thing.

389
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 1: So he was going underwater and logging tons and tons

390
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:49,520
Speaker 1: and tons of hours at a breakneck speed to say,

391
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 1: so if a certification takes a hundred hours, He's like, well,

392
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:57,160
Speaker 1: if I go six hours a day every day, I'll

393
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,320
Speaker 1: be there in no time flat. You know, take me

394
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,480
Speaker 1: less in two weeks. I can totally make this happen. Well,

395
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,439
Speaker 1: that's not the way that you're supposed to do it,

396
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,159
Speaker 1: because the reason that it takes hours is so that

397
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:13,200
Speaker 1: you learn how to do certain things. They become automatic

398
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,280
Speaker 1: reactions and automatic functions so that when you're in a

399
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:23,320
Speaker 1: catastrophic situation, you automatically react in the proper way. And

400
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 1: that wasn't what he was doing. He was just piling

401
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 1: on the hours based on his log books anyway. Yeah,

402
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 1: which is do you want to explain real quick what

403
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 1: a log book is? Oh, that's a very good question.

404
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:40,440
Speaker 1: So it just seem so s logbook is quite literally

405
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:44,440
Speaker 1: a book where you write in a log of your activities,

406
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:46,639
Speaker 1: something like a time card. You say, when in the

407
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 1: water at did x y Z exited the water at

408
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,359
Speaker 1: so for a total of time of underwater I mean,

409
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 1: and that's it. And then it's a tally and you're

410
00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 1: just keeping a record of everything you're doing and practices,

411
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,879
Speaker 1: then to go back and reread your log books to

412
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 1: think about things that you did. And this is why

413
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 1: you don't do things. It's such a high speed. Say

414
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 1: once a week you go die for three hours and

415
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,199
Speaker 1: then you reread your logbook three weeks later, like I

416
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,919
Speaker 1: totally don't remember. Oh that's ride. And then I do

417
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,680
Speaker 1: this like you know, I equated to the same thing

418
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 1: as taking a final. Did you guys ever do this?

419
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,240
Speaker 1: You had cram like mad before the final and then

420
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 1: take the test and remember none of it the next

421
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 1: day after the test. Yeah, that's how I did finals

422
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,439
Speaker 1: for sure. But I mean, I think what you're supposed

423
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 1: to do that? No, And I think you also in

424
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 1: your log book you take notes and draw diagrams and

425
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 1: you know any important information. I suspect you also say

426
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 1: things like, here's what my oxygen tank was at when

427
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 1: I went in, Here's what it was at when I

428
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 1: came out, how long it cooked decompressed. Here's how I'm feeling,

429
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: you know, here's how I'm feeling the next day. Well

430
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 1: that's more of a dear diary, but I'm making But

431
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:04,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I think those are all very important things

432
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 1: to be keeping track of as well, probably he probably

433
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 1: should be paying attention to how your body reacts to

434
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 1: all that crap. Your body time to react is the

435
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,359
Speaker 1: really important part, right, because if it turns out that

436
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,880
Speaker 1: the next day something is going to negatively affect you,

437
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 1: if you just keep doing it and doing it and

438
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 1: doing it and you haven't given your body time to

439
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 1: do that reset, you're done for. Yeah. Absolutely, So that's

440
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,239
Speaker 1: what a log book is. Yes, Okay, So let's go

441
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,120
Speaker 1: to the eighteenth of August two, which was a Wednesday.

442
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,160
Speaker 1: By the way, Ben McDaniels went in the early part

443
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 1: of the day. He took a dive in Vortech Spring

444
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 1: and went down and afterwards he was seen by people

445
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 1: hanging around. So it wasn't like he did his dive,

446
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 1: came out, went home. He hung around, he was writing

447
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 1: his log book, he's adjusting his gear. We know that

448
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 1: at one point he went and filled his tanks because

449
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 1: of some security footage. We don't know what he filled

450
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 1: his tanks with, whether it was just a regular air

451
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:08,959
Speaker 1: mix or some specialized mix. We don't know. By his tanks,

452
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,160
Speaker 1: I mean, there were other tanks that were found that didn't.

453
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,159
Speaker 1: This is the question. We don't know about that we

454
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: don't know which tanks he put the air in, whether

455
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: they the ones that he was wearing and disappeared with,

456
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 1: or the ones that were subsequently found after the They

457
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 1: also we also don't know for certainty that the ones

458
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 1: that were found after the fact were actually Ben's. It's

459
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 1: it is pretty strong strong, but we we don't. They

460
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: don't say Ben McDaniels edged into them. They do now,

461
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 1: but they didn't. Yeah. Yeah, And also another thank it's

462
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: frustrated about this mystery is I would like to know

463
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: exactly how many tanks been owned. That would be useful.

464
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 1: I don't know if there's a way to find that out. Well,

465
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 1: I guess you could call his family, but the problems

466
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 1: they might not even know. They probably don't. Yeah, I

467
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 1: don't know that they have an accurate number, And I

468
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,120
Speaker 1: don't know that anybody's ever said that. That's a really

469
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 1: good thing. And I thought the same question, but it's not.

470
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I believe that if the tanks that were

471
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: found were bends, then he had at least four tanks,

472
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,880
Speaker 1: if not more. But he had to have the three,

473
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: so he would have had to have had at least four, yes,

474
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: actually five, Because you don't cave dive without two tanks, right,

475
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: Well you shouldn't. Well, yeah, I guess you could, but

476
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 1: keep going for an all time record of some kind.

477
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 1: But that was what my face was was that, you know,

478
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 1: we they found the tanks, and they found at least

479
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,719
Speaker 1: two of them had the X the special mix in it,

480
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: the regular air, regular air in them. They weren't a

481
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: special mix at all, two of them, that's right, I'm sorry.

482
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: I had them switched. Two of them were normal air

483
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: and one of them was the special mix, right, but

484
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: one which was weird. Right, It's weird because, as I

485
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: said before, if you're going to dive in that cave

486
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: and you're going to go to that depth, you should

487
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: be using the special gas, the gas mix, not just

488
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: regular air for the decompression issues. So that questionable judgment

489
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 1: in terms of the way he went about it. Well,

490
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: I thought that normal air was used when they were

491
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 1: coming up during decompression, that they would be your cans

492
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 1: for like when you're coming up slowly once you were

493
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,959
Speaker 1: above a certain No, I may have made that up.

494
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: I think I actually don't know enough. I remember reading

495
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: so much about it, and there's so much technical details

496
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 1: that I will be honest, I do not remember the

497
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 1: writing answer to that, So I don't know if I

498
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 1: would just think that if you're using something special below

499
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: a hundred and thirty it means that you can't use

500
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: that something special above a hundred and thirty feet. No,

501
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 1: it doesn't. Yeah, you can use it above. Yeah, it

502
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 1: totally doesn't stop using it to set. But I imagine

503
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,919
Speaker 1: it's probably cheaper to buy just regular compressed air than

504
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: it is to buy that special mix, So that might

505
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: that might account for that, that's true, But I don't

506
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 1: I don't know that that he was really concerned with

507
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: cash either. I don't like that sense. Given some things

508
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,439
Speaker 1: that we're going to talk about in a little bit here, Actually,

509
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: let's let's leave those tanks where they are. And I

510
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: don't mean that is a pun. But so he filled

511
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: his tanks. He fills his tanks, and then Vortic Spring

512
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: closes at four o'clock at night, So everybody who's swimming

513
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 1: and having good time goes home, but Ben goes for

514
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 1: a dive at some time around seven or seven thirty

515
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: that night. So did you sort of have a browth

516
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: thing on with the people, the people that owned it?

517
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 1: Is that how you could do that well, the divers

518
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: could stay and finish their dives. So swimmers, the people

519
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: that are using the zip line everything, Hey hey guys,

520
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: pools clothes get out, you know, to get all those

521
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: people out of there. But if you're a diver and

522
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: you go in at three o'clock and you've got two

523
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: or three hours worth of air, you're gonna stay under

524
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: And so I I don't know how it was that

525
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 1: he would wrangle the I'm gonna go in after the

526
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: pool is closed thing. It's not as if the pool

527
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: was gate it off. If you looked at pictures, you

528
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: could walk in anywhere. You really could. I mean, there's

529
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: an entrance with stairs for divers, but he could have

530
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 1: literally gone in at any point. I had a sense

531
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: that the owner of Vortex Springs, Kelly, really liked Ben,

532
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: or at least after the fact, seemed to like Ben.

533
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: I think the clarification, I think he just didn't care,

534
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: and Ben was kind of at least amicable with the

535
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: people who ran it, given the bit we're going to

536
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: talk about a second here. So I think I mean,

537
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 1: I think he just was doing it. It was against

538
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: the rules, but they were kind of like, well, he's

539
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: going to do it either way, so we can't stop

540
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: in yeah, or he paid people off, also possible. Absolutely,

541
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,959
Speaker 1: that's absolutely a possibility. So here's the thing. We know

542
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 1: that he's in the water because somewhere around seven thirty

543
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: that night, as he's going down through the entrance of

544
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: the cave heading to the gate, he passes two other

545
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: divers who were exiting the cave who also happened to

546
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 1: be a employees of Vortex Spring and their names are

547
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: Chuck Cronin and Eduardo Tehran and ed where those stops,

548
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: I mean they passed him, He stops, He signals to Chucks,

549
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: you know, wait, goes back to Ben and he unlocks

550
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: the gate for Ben. And that is because they were

551
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 1: convinced that Ben had been going into the cave and

552
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: however he was doing it, he was bypassing that gate.

553
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: He was wearing his helmet and life he was wearing.

554
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 1: He's wearing his all of his gear to go into helmet.

555
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: That's the important bit, right, He's wearing a helmet. You

556
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: could go down it's called the Piano room. Is that

557
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: is this big open cavern right before the gate um,

558
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 1: which is the kind of the last stop for any basically, Yeah,

559
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: so I think you can go down there without a

560
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: helmet correct into the piano room, but when you go

561
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: deeper you need a helmet. So that was I thought

562
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 1: why they thought he was definitely and going for a well, yeah,

563
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: if he's if he's in that area, then it's pretty

564
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 1: obvious what he's doing, well, you know. And the thing

565
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: about it is he's been hanging around so much, you

566
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 1: gotta figure he's pushing the cave, you know, ever deeper

567
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: all the time. But and one other reasons. It's not

568
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: just the whole going around thing, but they he figured

569
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: that if you let him in, that would save been

570
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: five minutes maybe of air. Yeah, yeah, that's that's that's

571
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 1: that's the only logical reason that I can think of. Now.

572
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: At first I thought, well, I mean, it only takes

573
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 1: a minute or so to get into who cares. But really,

574
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: where it's important is what he's getting out. If he's

575
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: running low on air and now he's got to stop

576
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 1: and do something that takes two or three minutes, that's

577
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: two or three minutes of air that he may not have.

578
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: And I think that Edwardo even said that he said

579
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: he thought that Ben was jumping the fence anyway, and

580
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: he would try and save him sometimes, so he unlocked

581
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: the gate even though he knew we should make it

582
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,479
Speaker 1: very clear. He knew that Ben was not certified and

583
00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: not well trained to be cave diving, and actually, um,

584
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 1: you know, to speak to Ben's talent as a diver

585
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: aptitude if he will. Um that guy was talking about earlier,

586
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: Nick who records all these videos. There's lots and lots

587
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: of videos out here there that he has, and I

588
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 1: believe and I'm this is just me putting a couple

589
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: of things together. So I'm not sure on this, so

590
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: please don't cristify me if I'm wrong on this. But

591
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 1: Nick has a video called, uh, the Lost Diver in

592
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 1: the Piano Room, and it's like a three part thing

593
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: and it's him and his diving partner are going down

594
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: on a routine swim. They record the whole thing, and

595
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: then when they're swimming around the piano room, they encounter

596
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: a diver who I guess is maybe lost. I don't

597
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 1: know who I believe is Ben. Didn't they say they

598
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: thought it was him after the fact, Um, I you know,

599
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 1: I don't know. Here. The way that I put this

600
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: together was this guy who films these videos named Nick Um.

601
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: And then in this movie that we watched, Nick's or

602
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: Ben's Vortex, they show a Facebook post that Ben had

603
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: made a couple of days before he went missing that said, oh,

604
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: I think I interrupted a video shoot today when I

605
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: was down training. Uh, Nick was down there and he

606
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: was he was, you know, filming, and I think that they,

607
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: you know, they helped me find my way out or

608
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: something like that. So I believe that this is the case.

609
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,719
Speaker 1: And I again, I don't know that for sure, but

610
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: I think if it is Ben. So the way that divers, Yeah,

611
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: they do this side tank thing where you think of

612
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: a normal scupid Ever, they have the tanks on their

613
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 1: back instead when you're cave diving, you mount them to

614
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,959
Speaker 1: your side so that you're slimmer behind your armpits. They

615
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,239
Speaker 1: run along the sides of your body so that you

616
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: are a when swimming horizontally, you're not a thick Yeah,

617
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: so you're flatter so that you can maneuver yourself in

618
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 1: into and out of crevices easier. Um, So it looks

619
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 1: like Ben is really struggling. Well, it's hard to say.

620
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 1: I saw the same video and it could be that

621
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: or he could just be fool around. I mean, he

622
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: could have been. I really don't know. It looks like

623
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: it's hard to say what what the hell exactly, Well,

624
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: it's hard to say. It's hard to see too, but

625
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: it's hard to say except for the two beams. Yeah,

626
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 1: those guys need to work in their lighting. Well it's hard.

627
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 1: So it's hard for a number of reasons. One, you know,

628
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 1: back to the buoyancy issue. It seems like he's kind

629
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 1: of floating. He's having a hard time diet, he's not

630
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,399
Speaker 1: using the right amount of weighty compensate for. It does

631
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,720
Speaker 1: look like that a lot. And it looks like he's

632
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 1: moving more awkwardly than the videos of people who are

633
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 1: trained with the side mount system that I've seen. And

634
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 1: he's also doing the hand signal for like which way, Um,

635
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 1: so he's trying to signal to which partner and which

636
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 1: way down? I think, well, I don't know, it's just

637
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,720
Speaker 1: all the hand signals is which way? I mean, obviously

638
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: when you're scupinaving, you can't say like which way which

639
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,840
Speaker 1: way down. The hard part about that video, though, is

640
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: I agree with Joe's At times I thought maybe he

641
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 1: was screwed round. But the other part that's really difficult

642
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 1: to tell what's going on and potentially wrong is that

643
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,879
Speaker 1: everybody is spinning in space, and there are times where

644
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 1: you can tell the camera is upside down and the

645
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 1: person in frame is upside down because you know, the

646
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 1: bubbles should be going above them and I stand there

647
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,879
Speaker 1: heading towards their feet, they're standing on the ceiling. Yeah. Yeah,

648
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 1: so it's hard. It's hard to tell, but um, it's

649
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: it's interesting to see if that is indeed Ben. It

650
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 1: doesn't look like he's very confident or moving as fluidly

651
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: as you would hope somebody who's attempting dives like the

652
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 1: ones that I think he's attempting. So I just wanted

653
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 1: to also throw that out there too. Yeah, that's man,

654
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's hard to Again, it's hard to

655
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 1: say what he's doing. It is dark and it's a

656
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 1: murky little video. Yeah, well that's the problem. And that's

657
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: the thing again. I think we talked about this a

658
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: little bit more but before, but cave diving, the only

659
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:55,879
Speaker 1: light that you have is the light that you bring.

660
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: So if you have crappy you ever had a car

661
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 1: that had crappy headlights, then you got a car that

662
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 1: had good headlights. You're like, oh my god, how did

663
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 1: I not run anybody over the same thing? Cave diving

664
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 1: your crampy little headlights, you're not gonna see very well.

665
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,439
Speaker 1: And that's what makes that video so difficult. But back

666
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: to Ben and Edwardo. As we said, Eduardo figured that

667
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: Ben was bypassing the gate, so he unlocks it. And

668
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 1: then normally what Chuck and Edwardo would do is they

669
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:29,240
Speaker 1: would finish their dive, they'd go top side, and they'd

670
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 1: wait until they saw Ben's bubbles coming to the surface,

671
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: because that mean he was out of the cave, he

672
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: was going through the decompression process. Things should be fine.

673
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 1: And then that was a fairly frequent occurrence. Then that

674
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 1: Ben wouldn't dive at night and obviously done it several times,

675
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: and these guys I really feel like they were kind

676
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: of trying to look out for him, like that idiot,

677
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: Well hang on, Well, we'll keep an eye for him

678
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 1: in case something seems like it's not right, and then

679
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 1: we'll have to we'll go try and help. That's the

680
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 1: sense that I got. But instead this particular night, they

681
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 1: didn't wait for Ben. They left, They took off that

682
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 1: something going on. Probably yeah, I think, and had coffee.

683
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 1: Can't be babysitting this guy all the time, although it

684
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 1: is a little suspicious that this is the one night

685
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 1: they didn't stay but find whatever, But that is raised

686
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,959
Speaker 1: a lot. It is suspicious the one time they don't

687
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 1: stay he disappears. So those guys go home. The next day,

688
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: Ben's truck is in the parking lot because he has

689
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 1: not that we know of, come out of the water.

690
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 1: Nobody notices notice. I'm using notice with quotes, and that

691
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,879
Speaker 1: means it was a Thursday, though it was August, so

692
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 1: maybe school is still out. It was particularly hot, very busy.

693
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: They said they didn't notice it because they were busy.

694
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: You know, I think that doesn't bother me that much.

695
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,399
Speaker 1: I think you're a little busy. So what you're really

696
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,800
Speaker 1: saying is I didn't notice Ben because if he was

697
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,800
Speaker 1: having at the rate that he that we seem to

698
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 1: think he was diving at, it's totally possible that he

699
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 1: would get there really early in the morning and go

700
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: for a dive, and then bang out in the middle

701
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 1: of the day when it's really busy, and then go

702
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 1: for a night dive after everybody's left, and that they

703
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 1: were used to just seeing his truck there all the time,

704
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 1: and so what they're really saying is we didn't notice

705
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 1: been around, but you know, his truck is always there. Anyway,

706
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 1: truck is there, he's probably off underwater somewhere, you know.

707
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 1: And that's that's a really good point. I've never heard anybody,

708
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: i mean, we've heard about his night diving habit, we'd

709
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 1: never I've never actually seen anything that said if Ben

710
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 1: was an early riser and was in the water at six,

711
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 1: when they opened up at eight, they just Ben's Ben's

712
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: diving again. It sounds like he was doing a very

713
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 1: accelerated process. Really, I mean, it wouldn't surprise me to

714
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 1: find out that he was often there early in the

715
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 1: morning too. So the next day is of August, that's

716
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 1: a Friday, and that's the second day he's missing. EDWARDO

717
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,240
Speaker 1: actually is the one who recognized the truck and realized

718
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 1: that it had moved and asked around and nobody said

719
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 1: they had seen Ben, and so then he turned around

720
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 1: and called cops. Yeah, he probably thought, oh, I left

721
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 1: on Thursday and it has been there the entire time. Yeah,

722
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:14,720
Speaker 1: probably something like that. The police came, they searched the truck.

723
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 1: They find Ben's wallet. It's got seven hundred bucks in

724
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,760
Speaker 1: cash in it. Uh, there's equipment and his log book

725
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 1: in the pickup. They eventually, when they can't find him,

726
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 1: they bring cadaver dogs. Cadaver dogs for those who don't know,

727
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 1: I know, we've talked about it. They're not cadavers. The

728
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 1: dogs are not. They are dogs that react to the

729
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: smell of a decomposing human body. Those dogs were brought

730
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: and supposedly triggered when they smelled the water. Don't I

731
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 1: have a hard time with it as well. I don't

732
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 1: think the body would have started decomposing that quick. I

733
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 1: don't think that they could have smelled it if it

734
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,399
Speaker 1: was under eighty or a hundred feet of water like that.

735
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 1: Plus there's gonna be other things dying, of course. Never

736
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 1: docs are well trained a differential between and say, a

737
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,800
Speaker 1: dead possible human being. They're supposed to be. Yeah. Yeah,

738
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: so I I have a difficulty with the whole cadaver

739
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 1: dog thing. But you will see that reported. They like

740
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: I said, they they signaled on the body, so they

741
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 1: signal on thank you. Yes, they signaled on the water.

742
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,320
Speaker 1: And at that point local divers who were certified to

743
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 1: go into the cave and knew what and found out

744
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: what Ben had been doing, went into the cave, and

745
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 1: those divers logged our upon our looking for him in

746
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 1: the cave. Uh. The strange thing that they found right

747
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 1: away was they found a pair of his tanks near

748
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 1: the entrance of the cave, which we mentioned before. We

749
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: talked about that before, So that was weird. The location

750
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,720
Speaker 1: of them is weird because typically what a diver does

751
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 1: is you don't leave all of your air in one

752
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 1: places on the way dropped tanks like bread crumbs. You

753
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:00,839
Speaker 1: dropped tanks so you can find your way back out

754
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 1: and be get some air. If you really need some air,

755
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 1: you got a low tank, you can switch them out.

756
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 1: So it's odd that they were there. Somebody said that

757
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: it looked like they were placed by somebody who didn't

758
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 1: know what they were doing. Oh yeah, you do hear that? Yeah,

759
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:19,359
Speaker 1: I mean there there is a lot and there were

760
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: and there were three tanks, right, I believe there was.

761
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 1: But what I want to I do want to touch

762
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: on real quickly is there have been a lot of

763
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 1: things that have been said in the media, and we've

764
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 1: started saying some of this as well. Which is questioning

765
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: his diving abilities. And so when we say things like that,

766
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 1: I don't want it to come across as we say

767
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,839
Speaker 1: Ben was an idiot. It was he was doing things

768
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 1: that were not done the way that a proper cave

769
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 1: diver would have done. I just wanted he didn't those

770
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 1: tanks where that That's also a very valid point, but

771
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:57,400
Speaker 1: I just want to cover that because I've noticed it's

772
00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: kind of happened a couple of times. You know, we

773
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: don't know. We're not saying that been I mean, he

774
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 1: may have been a nod inexperience and shouldn't have been

775
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 1: doing what he was doing. Probably that's completely different. Yeah,

776
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 1: I was an experienced scuba diver, not in caves. Yeah. Um.

777
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 1: By the way, so this place was very very popular

778
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 1: vortech springs with scuba divers, and so scuba divers coming

779
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 1: and go on every day. Yep. Okay, So it's it's

780
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 1: strange that nobody noticed those tanks. Well, they may have

781
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: noticed the tanks. It may have been that a diver

782
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,280
Speaker 1: who was like, oh, well there's somebody obviously in the cave.

783
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,280
Speaker 1: That must be his tanks. Okay, So here's a question.

784
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:38,839
Speaker 1: I see the look on her face. H Yeah, here's

785
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 1: a here's a question for you, a real brain puzzler,

786
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 1: if you will. So, Edward Oh unlocked the gate for

787
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 1: him Thursday night. Uh, and it's a pad lock with

788
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 1: a key, correct, How did it get locked again? Well?

789
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: Ben could have locked it, but it was locked correct?

790
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,359
Speaker 1: When Well, that's that's something that was That's I mean,

791
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: that's a really good question. Is that. I'm assuming that

792
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 1: EDWARDO unlocked it and maybe even handed the padlock over

793
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 1: to bed just in case some prankster would come wouldn't

794
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 1: come along and not at that time of night, I know,

795
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: I I imagine that if that if EDWARDO unlocked it,

796
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 1: he left the unlocked padlock on the loop, he would

797
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: have given the lock to Ben. He wouldn't no use

798
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: for it. Well, well, the us is that you have

799
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 1: it with you, so nobody's going to lock you in.

800
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 1: But if nobody else is expected to go in that night,

801
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,319
Speaker 1: then what's the prom But he definitely didn't leave the key, right,

802
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:44,359
Speaker 1: So it's EDWARDO unlocked the gate and then at some

803
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:49,399
Speaker 1: point relocked. It had to have been relocked at some point,

804
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 1: yet it was eventually. I mean, it's not as if

805
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 1: when they you know, I don't believe that when they

806
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,839
Speaker 1: went down the divers went down looking for Ben, they said, hey,

807
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 1: the gates still unlocked. I'm sure that some employee who

808
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:07,240
Speaker 1: was looking around when uh, nobody's been in here today,

809
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: somebody left the gate unlocked and they relocked it. Imagined

810
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 1: that would have happened the next day. But no, absolutely

811
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:18,919
Speaker 1: no idea when that could have happened. For me, that's

812
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: a really really really important detail. You're right, it is.

813
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 1: It's the bubbling gun in this case. I don't know.

814
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 1: I have no idea when that gate got relocked, right, Okay, okay,

815
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 1: Zinger done, Um okay, So let's uh, let's continue on

816
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 1: with the story here. So Ben's parents come to the

817
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 1: area and they stay there while the search has begun

818
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 1: for their son. They've made some not so great choices

819
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:53,760
Speaker 1: in the way that they've discussed the case with social media. Specifically,

820
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: they've they've peep some people off in the fighting community,

821
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 1: because I mean, poor Joy supports is exactly what. It's

822
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,399
Speaker 1: not like they're intending they actually know they need these

823
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 1: people's help. What I'll say is that they they have

824
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 1: said things in the way that you would expect grieving

825
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: parents to say them, I'd agree with that. So while

826
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: they're they're there's divers in the cave looking. One of

827
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 1: the things we talked about in the beginning is that

828
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,800
Speaker 1: this spring, obviously because it's an upwelling and overflows. The

829
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 1: water overflows out through um and drains into Blue Creek,

830
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,320
Speaker 1: which then goes into some swampy areas because it's Florida.

831
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 1: And of course they checked those corpses, they checked all

832
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: of that. They ran dogs through the area, they searched it.

833
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:43,240
Speaker 1: So nobody has found at this point below or above

834
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: the water. So Ben's body has completely disappeared. His possessions

835
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 1: aren't there, like his dive gear, everything he would have

836
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,280
Speaker 1: had on. None of that is shown up at this point,

837
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 1: as they have to do. Eventually, the police called search off.

838
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 1: I mean, the divers are like, listen, we can't find him.

839
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 1: He's not in here, and the police are like, we

840
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 1: can't find him on the ground. We're not going to

841
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: keep combing this area, and they're calling off. It's not

842
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,840
Speaker 1: that complicated cave really, I mean, it's twisty and long,

843
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 1: but there's not that many side passages. For the most part.

844
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: I am in agreement with Joe. I know, Devin that

845
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,760
Speaker 1: you feel a little different. But when I watched that,

846
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:25,280
Speaker 1: though the walls do undulate, they are essentially a straight line.

847
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:29,800
Speaker 1: From the overview from space. If you look at this cave,

848
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 1: it seems to kind of be in a bit of

849
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 1: a bend, maybe almost an S shape as it goes away.

850
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 1: But for the most part, it's a it's a tube

851
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 1: that goes straight in the ground. I will I will

852
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 1: agree with that for the moment. So there's no giant

853
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 1: offshoot you you know, as far as we know, but

854
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 1: there are places where there are holes, you know, between

855
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 1: where the floor is and the wall that who knows

856
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 1: what's behind there, because frankly, every single person who has

857
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 1: gone into this cave has cared for their life and

858
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 1: wants to come back alive, so they're not going to

859
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 1: stick their head in there. So we don't know if

860
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 1: there is a cavern in there, if somebody did squeeze

861
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: in there, anything like that. So something to go along

862
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 1: with that and why there may actually be offshoots that

863
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 1: we don't know is the floor of the cave is

864
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 1: very silty, and I've actually read accounts from divers who

865
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 1: have um been stuck in uh sandy lanches, I believe

866
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 1: they called it. It's very sandy, and they went into

867
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: something and then the sands started coming in, the silts

868
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,319
Speaker 1: started coming in, and they had to dig themselves out,

869
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 1: and for every two shovelfuls out or one out, too

870
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 1: seemed to come in and it took them a while

871
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:43,919
Speaker 1: to get some headway to get back out. So, yes,

872
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 1: it is entirely possible that he squeezed in a hole

873
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: and he knocked something loose and the whole closed behind him.

874
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:54,720
Speaker 1: That is possible, and that could be some giant because

875
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 1: we don't know. One of the other things they found

876
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,919
Speaker 1: was his shovel. They believe they think somebody I think

877
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 1: it's his shovel because it was placed very deep in

878
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 1: the cave, but they don't know that it was Ben's.

879
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 1: But it's believed to be his. Yes, and it apparently

880
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 1: matched the description of a picture, which is a standard

881
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 1: issue folding. Oh yeah, No, it could have been anybody's,

882
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 1: but it also could have been Ben's. Yes. Absolutely. The

883
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 1: thing about it is is, uh, you know, I used

884
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 1: to know some cavers did caving myself, and uh, and

885
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 1: there's always the real hardcore ones really really want to

886
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 1: push the cave. That means that if they find some

887
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: little crack or crevice or hole, they'll go try to

888
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 1: force your body into it to see if they can

889
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 1: actually you know, break through and find another room or

890
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:42,280
Speaker 1: another cave or something like that. And the thing about

891
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 1: it is is even the hardcore cavers that I used

892
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 1: to know would never do something like that by themselves.

893
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 1: Well you know, it's like, you know, maybe you want

894
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 1: to when you get stuck, you want to have somebody

895
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:55,759
Speaker 1: to grab your feet and pull you back out of

896
00:48:55,800 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 1: that hole. Yes. Yeah, So back to the McDaniels though,

897
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 1: Ben's family. So while they're there, remember I said they

898
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 1: were hanging, They were there while the search was going on,

899
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,839
Speaker 1: and then once the search was called off, what they

900
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: decided to do was they decided to and this is

901
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 1: the part that I told you they did where they

902
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: kind of bungle things and they really made people mad,

903
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 1: is they put out a ten thousand dollar reward for

904
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 1: someone to find their son's body. Because at this point

905
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 1: they know he's dead, but they say, we'll get They're

906
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 1: pretty sure. They'll give ten thousand dollars to anyone who is,

907
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 1: as they put it, brave enough to go find him. No,

908
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,800
Speaker 1: because all of the cave I was like, are you kidding?

909
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: You know how much danger I put myself into going

910
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 1: in this cave looking for him in the first place,

911
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:51,839
Speaker 1: and the cave diving communities up in arms, and they

912
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 1: are saying, listen, you need to you need to pull

913
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:58,880
Speaker 1: back this reward offer. Your going to get somebody killed.

914
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 1: The mcdan is on their part, they ignore that they

915
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 1: increased the reward not once, but twice, to the tune

916
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:09,360
Speaker 1: of thirty thousand dollars totally in the end. Eventually they

917
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 1: took they took that away, but they did only after

918
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:18,359
Speaker 1: a gentleman by the name of Larry Higginbotham and he's

919
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 1: from Biloxi, Mississippi. March two thousand twelve. He uh, he

920
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 1: drowned in the cave and it's believed, not confirmed, but

921
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 1: people were pretty sure he was going in there and

922
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:32,799
Speaker 1: looking for Ben because he was having a hard time

923
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 1: and he needed some cash. He thought, if I find

924
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 1: He's evidently said something about finding this guy. He had

925
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 1: also been following the case. I mean, he was a

926
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 1: cave diver who had been following the case since it started.

927
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 1: So it wasn't just like out of the blue, Oh,

928
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,040
Speaker 1: thirty dollars. I will. I've never done this before, but

929
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 1: I'll do it. Yeah, no, no, absolutely not. I gotta

930
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 1: say that must really suck to be that moment when

931
00:50:55,320 --> 00:51:01,399
Speaker 1: when you coming about it. I don't want to think

932
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 1: that through at all, the moment when you realize you're

933
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:09,919
Speaker 1: out of air or so Ben's um. Ben's parents did

934
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 1: eventually withdraw the offer of the reward. They've still been

935
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:18,959
Speaker 1: very active in regards to the case. They are still

936
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 1: very active on social media in anywhere that discusses the case.

937
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 1: I've seen them come up in discussions, threads, from articles

938
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 1: all over the place. Chances are they're probably listening to

939
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 1: us right now. And if they are listening, I do

940
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 1: wanna give my condolences for the loss of Ben and Paul.

941
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 1: I feel terrible for these Yeah, we all do. And

942
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:45,360
Speaker 1: by the way, we've been saying so, you know, I

943
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:47,320
Speaker 1: think that Ben was a good guy. It's like, you know,

944
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 1: we're saying stuff like he was an incompetent cave diver. Question,

945
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 1: I'm an incompetent cave divers too, and I'm also I'm

946
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: also you know, I'm much more incompetent scuba diver than Ben. Yeah,

947
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 1: I've had a respirator to take once and I was

948
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 1: in a swimming pool. But I don't know what I'm doing.

949
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 1: But okay, well that is our story. Okay, well I

950
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: took a long time. Goodbye everybody. So at this point

951
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 1: we should probably go ahead and get into the theories.

952
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 1: And there are three very different theories. It's actually kind

953
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 1: of an easy when there's three simple chippy UFO, drowning. Yeah,

954
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,240
Speaker 1: I thought big Foot was in their nose rowing underwater

955
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:33,720
Speaker 1: big Foot, underwater fot that sounds like under water big Foot.

956
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 1: You don't think Lockness monster did it? Yeah, that's true.

957
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 1: Nobody is nobody has actually proved that this this cave

958
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 1: does not connect up with Locknuts. True. Nobody has Yeah,

959
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 1: show me the proof. No, ain't there. Oh, this is

960
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:55,480
Speaker 1: one of the moments when I love working with you, Joe. Okay,

961
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 1: let's go to theory number one, which is that Ben

962
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 1: is still in the cave. Yeah, he's crawled into some

963
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:06,760
Speaker 1: tight little crawl they shouldn't have done. Here's here's something

964
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:09,400
Speaker 1: that people need to know about what this is. Sadly,

965
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 1: what people have figured out after the fact, what happens

966
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:17,479
Speaker 1: to cave divers when they their bodies are retrieved. They

967
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 1: tend to when they're running low on oxygen, panic, weird, strange,

968
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 1: and what happens is their bodies tend to be found

969
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: in little cracks and crevices that they're trying to squeeze

970
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 1: them selves through in the mistaken belief that that is

971
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 1: the way out. You know, they're panicking, their thrashing, cling,

972
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 1: and so they get into it, and then that's where

973
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 1: they die, and that's where their body stays, and that's

974
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:55,239
Speaker 1: where it's found. So it's possible, as we talked about,

975
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,319
Speaker 1: he could have been freaking out and gone into some

976
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:02,800
Speaker 1: teeny little cravice and stuck into an area. I mean, frankly,

977
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,320
Speaker 1: he could have been not even a little bit freaking

978
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:07,960
Speaker 1: out and got himself into a little area that he

979
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 1: thought was gonna be because I think one of the

980
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 1: things that we kind of glossed over is that he

981
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 1: was very vocal around vortex springs and saying that he

982
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 1: was going to discover, you know, he was going to

983
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:22,320
Speaker 1: find a different part of the cave, and he was

984
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,359
Speaker 1: going to go deeper than anybody else ever had, and

985
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 1: he was going to find all this new stuff. He

986
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 1: had a lot of bravado he did, and um, I

987
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 1: you know it's it wouldn't surprise me that if he

988
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 1: saw something he was like, oh, I can fit in

989
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 1: that crack. There's got to be something interesting in there,

990
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 1: and I can fit in there. He went through there

991
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:45,359
Speaker 1: and then got stuck. Well, it's it's yeah, it's it's

992
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:48,080
Speaker 1: possible that he went through and he got stuck because

993
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 1: it was a dead end and he couldn't get back out,

994
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 1: or like we talked about before, the sand fills in

995
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,839
Speaker 1: the hole and there's no evidence of him having been there,

996
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 1: or you know, his line got cut. I don't think

997
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:03,680
Speaker 1: he was diving with line No, I mean his like

998
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 1: air line. Okay, So I don't know how it could

999
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 1: have gotten cut unless somebody actually cut it. Well, if

1000
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 1: he had been like shimmying under rocks, I don't I

1001
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 1: didn't see a lot of sharp rocks down there. It's limestone. Yeah,

1002
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:21,839
Speaker 1: so there's not a whole lot of really jagged edge.

1003
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 1: The only problem I have, I know I'm the one

1004
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:26,319
Speaker 1: who's saying it could have been this, but but here's

1005
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:28,319
Speaker 1: the reason that it wasn't is that, as far as

1006
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 1: I can tell, all of the cave drivers that went

1007
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:36,120
Speaker 1: down there afterwards reported seeing no disturbances. Yeah, and let's

1008
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 1: let's talk about that briefly. Okay, So people who are listening,

1009
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:42,959
Speaker 1: what you need to remember is that it is a

1010
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 1: silty bottom. So if you run your fin through it,

1011
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 1: you're gonna leave an obvious mark. If you're squeezing through

1012
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 1: a hole, you're going to scrape the stone and leave

1013
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 1: marks because there's there's algae and stuff growing on the rocks,

1014
00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:59,400
Speaker 1: and you're gonna scrape that off with your suit and

1015
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,120
Speaker 1: your helm it and your arms and your tanks and

1016
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:05,480
Speaker 1: all of that. You're gonna be leave very obvious signs

1017
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:09,319
Speaker 1: on the walls and the floor and the ceiling. And

1018
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:12,359
Speaker 1: there were none that stood out as this is brand

1019
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:15,320
Speaker 1: new and this weird. There's a bunch of screen marks

1020
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:18,319
Speaker 1: that go into this sandy thing that's just here like that.

1021
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 1: That wasn't what happened. And it does sound like it

1022
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:24,480
Speaker 1: wasn't very frequent that people were going down into this cave.

1023
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:26,279
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think it was one of those

1024
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 1: things where you would be able to say, well, you know,

1025
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 1: somebody went down a day or two before him. So

1026
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:33,239
Speaker 1: I wasn't one of those things where they were like

1027
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:35,399
Speaker 1: you know, several people a day going, but I don't

1028
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:37,799
Speaker 1: know that for sure. I don't know the traffic. I

1029
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:41,200
Speaker 1: have nothing that has ever said what the traffic in

1030
00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:44,120
Speaker 1: that cave is. But there was the one report one

1031
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:46,719
Speaker 1: guy who went down like really really deep. Who was this,

1032
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 1: you know, legendary deep and he said he said there

1033
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:52,799
Speaker 1: was evidence of no one having ever been as far

1034
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:56,880
Speaker 1: and as he was. So that's true. M Yeah, I'm

1035
00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 1: assuming that most of the divers that played around in

1036
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 1: Vortech Springs probably they do. They do. Here's the so

1037
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:06,760
Speaker 1: I talked about for divers that do die in caves

1038
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:09,320
Speaker 1: is that they tend to cram themselves in a little holes.

1039
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:12,360
Speaker 1: There's also been a number of cave divers who have

1040
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:15,840
Speaker 1: disappeared and everybody has gone looking for him, and for

1041
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 1: several years couldn't find them. And then five ten years later,

1042
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 1: somebody's bopping along kind of like what Devil was saying,

1043
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 1: and suddenly spotted and opening. Because again it's pitch black,

1044
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 1: you only have your lights, so if you're not at

1045
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:33,440
Speaker 1: the right angle, you may not see it. And they

1046
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: have gone through a bend and they've looked up and

1047
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 1: there is a mask on the floor and a wetsuit

1048
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 1: full of bones. It does happen that way, and there's

1049
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 1: been a great number of a number of divers have

1050
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 1: been found. Though, Yeah, I don't think it's going to

1051
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 1: happen again. That's not that's not that complicated. But also

1052
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:57,040
Speaker 1: also in in Ben's vortex, when the dive team went down,

1053
00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 1: they went down with a high definition camera and a

1054
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 1: priest all a light like you could see anywhere than

1055
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:09,800
Speaker 1: anyone could have gone banks that they really illuminated. It

1056
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:12,680
Speaker 1: was so it felt like you could see everything and

1057
00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 1: there wasn't really any Just know they didn't. They didn't

1058
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 1: from somebody, miss um. Now, the thing about you said

1059
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:20,960
Speaker 1: Joe earlier is that Ben was saying that he was

1060
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:22,640
Speaker 1: going to find the end and he was gonna find

1061
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 1: things that people had never done before. Again, this is

1062
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 1: one of those things that his his dad. I don't

1063
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:33,439
Speaker 1: know how his dad's came upon this, but his dad

1064
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 1: said online that everybody went the wrong way in the

1065
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:40,040
Speaker 1: cave and that if they would just go the right way,

1066
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:44,480
Speaker 1: they would find Ben a lot of sense. No, I

1067
00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 1: know you're joking, but it doesn't make any sense to

1068
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 1: me because everything I've seen on this nothing supports that

1069
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 1: so I don't even know where Mr McDaniels got that information.

1070
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:56,920
Speaker 1: He's never been in there. I mean, I'm sure he's

1071
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:59,160
Speaker 1: seen the same maps that we've seen. I'm sure he has,

1072
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:01,640
Speaker 1: if not better ones, And it sounds to me like

1073
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 1: many many divers dove all the way as far as

1074
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 1: they could, as far as they could squeeze through. Although

1075
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:09,600
Speaker 1: I guess the interesting thing is, um, gosh, what's her name,

1076
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:15,400
Speaker 1: Jill from Ben's vortex? Yeah, Jill, Yeah, she uh. She

1077
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 1: said that when she looked at the map that Ben

1078
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:22,520
Speaker 1: had been making, that it didn't correspond at all. She's

1079
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 1: not the only one with her understanding of the cave,

1080
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 1: So I guess it is that is an interesting thing.

1081
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:31,880
Speaker 1: Whether he was mapping it poorly or maybe he did

1082
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:36,920
Speaker 1: he was going a different way, I don't know, Maybe

1083
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 1: he wasn't. Maybe there is some hole that leads to

1084
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:43,160
Speaker 1: a different part out of the you know, piano room

1085
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 1: for instance, right, so that he hadn't actually been jumping

1086
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:48,720
Speaker 1: the gate this entire time, that there was some random

1087
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 1: hole that he had discovered and that's how he went,

1088
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:54,320
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't think so. I doubt it,

1089
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 1: because I mean, there was I don't know how many divers.

1090
00:59:57,680 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 1: I got the sense at least a couple of dozen

1091
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 1: divers went down. They're searching the cave. Yeah, and it

1092
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 1: hundreds of hours of dietime we're logged looking for him. Yeah,

1093
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 1: and I can't believe that, you know, they've ben found

1094
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:12,400
Speaker 1: some hole somewhere. I can't believe those guys didn't find

1095
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:14,120
Speaker 1: it too. I would agree with that unless there was

1096
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 1: like a sand avalanche. But I mean, yeah, just that's

1097
01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:20,479
Speaker 1: worth mentioning. I guess too. But there's some other really

1098
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:24,280
Speaker 1: compelling evidence against him not being in there. I guess

1099
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:26,120
Speaker 1: him being in there. I guess him not being in there,

1100
01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:30,360
Speaker 1: against him being in there, and and that his The

1101
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 1: cave is full of aquatic life, specifically eels, which are carnivores,

1102
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:38,880
Speaker 1: and so if there had been a body in the water,

1103
01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 1: there should have been increased activity among the eel population,

1104
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:48,480
Speaker 1: and there should have also been a spike in the

1105
01:00:48,520 --> 01:00:51,680
Speaker 1: bacteria in the water due to the presence of a

1106
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:55,040
Speaker 1: decomposing human body. Yeah, they've been testing the water, right

1107
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:58,920
Speaker 1: they Yeah, they tested it immediately, like a month straight.

1108
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:03,560
Speaker 1: They tested it, and there's no increased eel activity and

1109
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 1: there is no spike in the bacteria. So that is

1110
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:12,280
Speaker 1: what has led the vast majority of people to say

1111
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:15,560
Speaker 1: there's no way his body's in that cave, because the

1112
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:22,080
Speaker 1: scientific evidence says he's not here. There's no slings of him.

1113
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:27,720
Speaker 1: So that then leads us during number two. Ben's not

1114
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 1: in the cave. Ben's not in the cave, Then where

1115
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 1: is he. Ben's not alive, but Ben is not in

1116
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:37,240
Speaker 1: the cave. That is what theory number two is. Okay,

1117
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:40,520
Speaker 1: so you we've briefly touched on him. There's a guy

1118
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:44,000
Speaker 1: by the name of Ed Sorensen who threw a series

1119
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:48,439
Speaker 1: of miscommunications I didn't get to talk to. I tried

1120
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:52,520
Speaker 1: to line that up. But Ed is in that area

1121
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:57,240
Speaker 1: and among cave divers he is very well revered. He

1122
01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:00,640
Speaker 1: is one of the most experienced. He has his own

1123
01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 1: he's got his own school and he teaches cave diving.

1124
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:05,480
Speaker 1: When the guy knows how to cave dive, he's been

1125
01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:10,040
Speaker 1: doing it for years. I read Gripping Tail about this

1126
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:11,720
Speaker 1: family that had gotten trapped in the cave and he

1127
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:17,680
Speaker 1: actually wanted to rescue their daughter. Yeah, he's pulled out

1128
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:20,240
Speaker 1: more than one person alive. Because believe it or not,

1129
01:02:20,560 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 1: if you know somebody's lost diving in a cave. Soon enough,

1130
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:26,840
Speaker 1: you can send a trained professional end to get him.

1131
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 1: And he has done it multiple times. The guy is

1132
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:34,280
Speaker 1: a really good diver. He's good at caves and he

1133
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:36,840
Speaker 1: knows what he's doing. Yeah, if I ever go cave diving,

1134
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:40,120
Speaker 1: hopefully he's going to be around somewhere nearby. I'll go

1135
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:43,000
Speaker 1: to the school, but I'm never getting a cave. So

1136
01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:46,480
Speaker 1: the thing is is that Ed shows up several days

1137
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:49,480
Speaker 1: after Ben has disappeared. They call him in and he says, yeah,

1138
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:51,840
Speaker 1: I'll go I'll go in and I'll go look. And

1139
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:55,320
Speaker 1: he's got better equipment for cave diving than Ben had.

1140
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:59,959
Speaker 1: He's got the experience. He also was using a under

1141
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 1: water propulsion device, you know, one of those little skimmer things.

1142
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 1: He could. Always wanted to have one of those, ever

1143
01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:08,520
Speaker 1: since I was a kid, and I wanted to see

1144
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:13,880
Speaker 1: where he used stuff like that so he could shot

1145
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:16,640
Speaker 1: himself down through there so he could cover ground faster.

1146
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:20,600
Speaker 1: And then he started diving the cave. He was dropping

1147
01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:22,919
Speaker 1: tanks along his way, so he had tons of air

1148
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:27,320
Speaker 1: supply with him, not the band, and then he is

1149
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:29,840
Speaker 1: he's looking all over and he goes he's the one

1150
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:34,240
Speaker 1: who went to feet back. Yeah, and he said, listen,

1151
01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:38,280
Speaker 1: there's there was no signs of anybody in that cave.

1152
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:41,080
Speaker 1: So he is one of the huge proponents of the

1153
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:44,600
Speaker 1: guy's not in the cave. I didn't find him, and

1154
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:47,760
Speaker 1: I found everybody else who got lost in over the cave.

1155
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:50,240
Speaker 1: I kind of I kind of gotta say, well, Lead

1156
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:52,959
Speaker 1: probably knows what he's talking about. Would say, so, yeah,

1157
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:57,560
Speaker 1: so he ain't in the cave. Well, that solves that problem.

1158
01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:01,760
Speaker 1: Actually it doesn't it. Then this to a gentleman that

1159
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:06,400
Speaker 1: we mentioned briefly earlier, which is our resident skeeezy character

1160
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:11,520
Speaker 1: in this story, the owner Lowe Kelly. Yeah, so the

1161
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:16,640
Speaker 1: guy who Lowell Kelly, so Mr Kelly, as we said,

1162
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:21,600
Speaker 1: was the owner of Vortex Springs and uh so he

1163
01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:25,480
Speaker 1: says that he was there the night that Ben disappeared,

1164
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:29,960
Speaker 1: later than Chuck and EDWARDO. And he said he didn't

1165
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:35,480
Speaker 1: see Ben and didn't see anything hanky going on except

1166
01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:39,640
Speaker 1: for that random drunk guy he says, walked up at

1167
01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:43,920
Speaker 1: sunset and wanted to go diving. The drunk guy, by

1168
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:48,200
Speaker 1: the way, is only in Lowell Kelly's account. I've never

1169
01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:52,360
Speaker 1: seen him anywhere else. And he supposedly walked onto the site,

1170
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:55,680
Speaker 1: which is not easy to do. So I sort of

1171
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:59,080
Speaker 1: discount the whole drunk guy thing. But Kelly says, maybe,

1172
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:01,480
Speaker 1: well maybe that guy I was responsive for what happened

1173
01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:04,480
Speaker 1: to Ben. That what he said, well, it's it's it's

1174
01:05:04,520 --> 01:05:11,160
Speaker 1: alluded to. I discount that right away because on foot

1175
01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:14,280
Speaker 1: and drunk is a long way to go to get

1176
01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:18,480
Speaker 1: in there, and so it just kind of it doesn't

1177
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:24,080
Speaker 1: add up. Um So then, but here's why I don't

1178
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:27,280
Speaker 1: like low Kelly in general, besides the fact that I

1179
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:28,800
Speaker 1: just think he was a bit of a dirt bag,

1180
01:05:29,640 --> 01:05:33,440
Speaker 1: is that he had an employee that he said owed

1181
01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:36,280
Speaker 1: him thousands upon thousands of dollars. And by the way,

1182
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 1: I don't know the date that this happened. That's what

1183
01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:41,760
Speaker 1: I'm about to talk about. It's prior to Ben's disappearance.

1184
01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:46,040
Speaker 1: We know it because he got into legal trouble. But

1185
01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:48,080
Speaker 1: what he did is he had an employee who he

1186
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:51,360
Speaker 1: said owed him thousands of dollars. He got that employee

1187
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:55,680
Speaker 1: into his vehicle, we believe under darrest, took them out

1188
01:05:55,800 --> 01:06:01,080
Speaker 1: into the swamp Everglade Woods something something that attempted to

1189
01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:06,720
Speaker 1: extract the money. From them with a baseball bat. Yeah,

1190
01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:11,080
Speaker 1: excepted that employee managed to get away, and low Kelly

1191
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:15,440
Speaker 1: only earned himself a bunch of charges, kidnapping an assault

1192
01:06:15,560 --> 01:06:20,560
Speaker 1: being two of them, but he got away probation. He

1193
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:23,560
Speaker 1: got very lucky. He only got probation and he didn't

1194
01:06:23,560 --> 01:06:27,120
Speaker 1: even have to serve all that. Well, I don't know

1195
01:06:27,160 --> 01:06:30,560
Speaker 1: if that was the lucky part. Yeah, yeah, I don't

1196
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 1: think he had very good luck. Because a year after

1197
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:39,000
Speaker 1: Ben's disappearance, were looking at two thousand eleven, there's a

1198
01:06:39,040 --> 01:06:45,560
Speaker 1: barbecue happening at Vortex Springs and according to the the story,

1199
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:49,920
Speaker 1: and I'm using air quotes here, he fell down some stairs.

1200
01:06:50,360 --> 01:06:53,680
Speaker 1: Take that to mean whatever you want. All I know

1201
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:57,200
Speaker 1: is that he was injured. Somebody gave him a ride

1202
01:06:57,200 --> 01:06:59,520
Speaker 1: home and put him in his bath that night. Somebody

1203
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:02,160
Speaker 1: else showed up in his house the next day and

1204
01:07:02,240 --> 01:07:06,920
Speaker 1: found him in a very bad stage, in a coma. Well,

1205
01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:08,600
Speaker 1: I don't think he was in a coma quite at

1206
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 1: that point, but then they took him to the hospital.

1207
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:13,840
Speaker 1: He was in a coma. He died within a month.

1208
01:07:13,960 --> 01:07:16,680
Speaker 1: After that. He was in hospice for basically a month.

1209
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 1: Head injuries is what I have to infer. This whole

1210
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:23,600
Speaker 1: thing means is he fell down the stairs and wailed

1211
01:07:23,720 --> 01:07:26,200
Speaker 1: his head quite severely. And this is one of those

1212
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:29,640
Speaker 1: cases where you think, well, if instead of taking him

1213
01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:31,760
Speaker 1: home and helping him out of his clothes and helping

1214
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:34,240
Speaker 1: him in a shower and then laying him down in

1215
01:07:34,360 --> 01:07:36,560
Speaker 1: his bathtub to sleep it off, if you had just

1216
01:07:36,600 --> 01:07:38,880
Speaker 1: taken him to the hospital, he might a lip. It

1217
01:07:38,920 --> 01:07:42,040
Speaker 1: might have been a good idea. Yeah, but he did

1218
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:43,880
Speaker 1: try to beat money out of a person with a

1219
01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:46,880
Speaker 1: baseball bat, so I don't know. Well, it might have been,

1220
01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:49,000
Speaker 1: it might not have been the person who was helping

1221
01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:51,640
Speaker 1: him call. He may have said, if you take me

1222
01:07:51,680 --> 01:07:54,040
Speaker 1: to the hospital, you're fired. Yeah, I mean, this guy

1223
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:58,600
Speaker 1: seems the rational behavior to begin with. I'll be honest,

1224
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:00,880
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily think that he was in a cognitive

1225
01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:04,040
Speaker 1: place to say things like that, but maybe you agree

1226
01:08:04,560 --> 01:08:08,840
Speaker 1: entirely with that. So yeah, so Mr Kelly passed away. Anyway,

1227
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:11,280
Speaker 1: I'll tell you he's but he has a suspect for you. Well,

1228
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:15,080
Speaker 1: he's a suspect because let's run down this road. Let's

1229
01:08:15,160 --> 01:08:19,240
Speaker 1: say that Eduardo and Chuck let him in the cave. Well,

1230
01:08:19,360 --> 01:08:24,719
Speaker 1: EDWARDO specifically and Ben goes in and Ben drowns. Well,

1231
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:28,040
Speaker 1: the water it's an upwelling, it's all coming out of

1232
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:32,400
Speaker 1: the cave. And it's entirely possible that Ben's body was

1233
01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:36,560
Speaker 1: pushed out of the cave and he came to the surface,

1234
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:40,880
Speaker 1: at which point Lowell finds him. And I understand that

1235
01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 1: this is hard if you look at the map, because

1236
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:47,400
Speaker 1: it does some some kind of switchbacks back and forth. Yeah,

1237
01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:49,559
Speaker 1: it's a little hard to believe the body would actually

1238
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:51,720
Speaker 1: if it was positively point, that it would actually come

1239
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:54,599
Speaker 1: up to the surface, because there's like a spot, there's

1240
01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:58,760
Speaker 1: several spots, one spot right outside the cave entrance in

1241
01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:01,920
Speaker 1: the piano he was, if he was positively buoyant, where

1242
01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:04,559
Speaker 1: his body would have wound up. Well, I'm not in

1243
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:07,599
Speaker 1: disagreement with that, particularly for it to have happened that fast.

1244
01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:11,960
Speaker 1: It's possible. I mean, also could have gotten caught on

1245
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:13,840
Speaker 1: the gate. He probably would have got I mean, the

1246
01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:17,320
Speaker 1: hole in the gate isn't that big. Okay, So maybe

1247
01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:20,639
Speaker 1: Eduardo and Chuck said something to Lowell, and at nine

1248
01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:24,679
Speaker 1: o'clock Lowell went down and found Ben dead. Okay, let's

1249
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:29,080
Speaker 1: add that to the mix. Either way, Lowell realizes that

1250
01:09:29,160 --> 01:09:33,000
Speaker 1: Ben is drowned and Lowell has already dealt with the

1251
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:36,120
Speaker 1: heat of the divers that died in that cave in

1252
01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:38,240
Speaker 1: the past and says he got rid of the body.

1253
01:09:38,320 --> 01:09:40,360
Speaker 1: I got to get rid of the body. So he

1254
01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:43,320
Speaker 1: hauls Ben out and he takes him somewhere and he

1255
01:09:43,400 --> 01:09:45,360
Speaker 1: buries him, or he throws him in a swamp and

1256
01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:47,720
Speaker 1: lets the gators get him. Can I tell you what

1257
01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:52,200
Speaker 1: I think about this theory? Yeah, well, it sucks because

1258
01:09:53,080 --> 01:09:54,920
Speaker 1: he didn't do a very good job of sanitizing the

1259
01:09:54,960 --> 01:09:57,760
Speaker 1: crime scene. Remember one he leaves, He leaves the three

1260
01:09:57,800 --> 01:10:01,200
Speaker 1: tanks behind in a pickup truck, all of which you

1261
01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:03,240
Speaker 1: know he would think he would have gotten rid of.

1262
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:09,840
Speaker 1: So here's a question. What if Ben, Well, what if

1263
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:13,600
Speaker 1: actually luell Um said, hey, Edward, oh, Chuck, I know

1264
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:15,560
Speaker 1: you guys usually hang out wait for Ben, but I

1265
01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:19,920
Speaker 1: can stay. I'll stay, right, So that explains why they

1266
01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:23,000
Speaker 1: didn't stay, because that's extremely out of the ordinary for them.

1267
01:10:23,280 --> 01:10:26,599
Speaker 1: He goes down and you know, finds Ben, or maybe

1268
01:10:26,640 --> 01:10:29,280
Speaker 1: he's annoyed with Ben or I don't know what you know.

1269
01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:32,120
Speaker 1: So he does pull him up, but then he thinks, okay,

1270
01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:36,519
Speaker 1: if I just leave the truck and leave the tanks

1271
01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:38,920
Speaker 1: and leave everything else. People will just assume that Ben

1272
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:42,160
Speaker 1: drowned and it will be a non issue and there

1273
01:10:42,200 --> 01:10:44,599
Speaker 1: won't be a thing. I mean, why sanitize it that much?

1274
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:49,280
Speaker 1: Because he's trying to, Because there's two reasons. Either a

1275
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:53,160
Speaker 1: he doesn't want the heat that he has already gotten

1276
01:10:53,280 --> 01:10:58,280
Speaker 1: by having divers die in the cave before, which by

1277
01:10:58,360 --> 01:11:01,680
Speaker 1: not sanitizing the crime scene he and up getting anyway.

1278
01:11:01,840 --> 01:11:08,240
Speaker 1: Or it's entirely possible that some shady dealings were going

1279
01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:13,360
Speaker 1: on on property at night, at which point you want

1280
01:11:13,439 --> 01:11:17,680
Speaker 1: to get rid of the cops any attention from the police, like,

1281
01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:19,559
Speaker 1: you know, get get him away, Get him away, get

1282
01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:23,040
Speaker 1: him away. I have nothing to say that Kelly was

1283
01:11:23,080 --> 01:11:27,320
Speaker 1: doing anything weird like that, but it's the only thing

1284
01:11:27,479 --> 01:11:30,800
Speaker 1: that I can think of that would justify him ditch

1285
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:33,880
Speaker 1: in the body. But I completely agree with Joe that

1286
01:11:34,080 --> 01:11:38,080
Speaker 1: he would leave a truck that is a prime evidence

1287
01:11:38,520 --> 01:11:40,720
Speaker 1: and oh it just happens to have a bunch of

1288
01:11:40,760 --> 01:11:43,800
Speaker 1: money sitting in it as well. It doesn't make any

1289
01:11:43,880 --> 01:11:46,840
Speaker 1: sense for him to get rid of the body, not

1290
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:49,679
Speaker 1: get rid of the truck. And because if the truck

1291
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:53,200
Speaker 1: and the tanks, but if the truck has found fifty

1292
01:11:53,200 --> 01:11:56,800
Speaker 1: miles away. Yeah, well that's the beauty part. How does

1293
01:11:56,840 --> 01:12:02,479
Speaker 1: he move the truck with the keys? He way? I

1294
01:12:01,960 --> 01:12:04,200
Speaker 1: I don't Yeah, I don't know exactly what you do

1295
01:12:04,240 --> 01:12:06,439
Speaker 1: when you're scuba diving. If you have a locker inside

1296
01:12:06,439 --> 01:12:08,599
Speaker 1: the scuba shop, maybe will you leave your leave your

1297
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:11,759
Speaker 1: wallet and your keys and stuff. Yeah, I'm not really sure,

1298
01:12:11,800 --> 01:12:13,080
Speaker 1: but I'm sure there was a way to get into

1299
01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:16,600
Speaker 1: the truck. Well, frankly, I think it cast less suspicious

1300
01:12:16,640 --> 01:12:19,960
Speaker 1: on low if something like if he did kill Lull

1301
01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:22,960
Speaker 1: for instance, right, if he liked actively killed Ben. I'm

1302
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:26,160
Speaker 1: sorry if law killed Ben. Yeah, if Ben killed Loule,

1303
01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:30,240
Speaker 1: he did a hell ofmet changing. But so then it

1304
01:12:30,360 --> 01:12:32,519
Speaker 1: is less suspicious that the cars there and the money

1305
01:12:32,560 --> 01:12:34,280
Speaker 1: is there and all that stuff because you just assumed

1306
01:12:34,320 --> 01:12:36,240
Speaker 1: that something happened to him. Yeah, okay, like you may

1307
01:12:36,280 --> 01:12:39,519
Speaker 1: catch heat for like another person died, but if you

1308
01:12:39,600 --> 01:12:42,200
Speaker 1: have a ward of saying, listen, this guy didn't know

1309
01:12:42,200 --> 01:12:44,200
Speaker 1: what he was doing, but I let him in anyway

1310
01:12:44,200 --> 01:12:46,120
Speaker 1: because he was going to go in anyway, and you

1311
01:12:46,160 --> 01:12:48,200
Speaker 1: were able to kind of cast this in this guy

1312
01:12:48,320 --> 01:12:50,120
Speaker 1: like these people didn't. This guy didn't know what he

1313
01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:52,640
Speaker 1: was doing. He just he accidentally killed himself. It was

1314
01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:57,000
Speaker 1: an accident. Maybe that's less heat than oh yeah killed

1315
01:12:57,040 --> 01:13:00,120
Speaker 1: the guy. I mean, well, I still don't understand his

1316
01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:03,000
Speaker 1: motivation to Yeah, I don't. I don't think. There's been

1317
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:04,920
Speaker 1: a lot of talk about how shady some of these

1318
01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:07,120
Speaker 1: people were, and I'm not sure that any of them

1319
01:13:07,200 --> 01:13:10,160
Speaker 1: really were all that shady. But the thing about it

1320
01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:13,000
Speaker 1: is is when you when you commit murder, you don't

1321
01:13:13,080 --> 01:13:16,200
Speaker 1: leave the corpse. Like I work in an office. Now,

1322
01:13:16,320 --> 01:13:18,439
Speaker 1: if I was to go murder somebody in dispose of

1323
01:13:18,439 --> 01:13:20,200
Speaker 1: the body, I wouldn't leave it in the lobby of

1324
01:13:20,240 --> 01:13:23,200
Speaker 1: the office building I work in. I would say, I

1325
01:13:23,240 --> 01:13:25,280
Speaker 1: would take it out. I would bake that body disappear

1326
01:13:25,360 --> 01:13:28,120
Speaker 1: permanently somewhere far away from me. Yeah, I mean so,

1327
01:13:28,160 --> 01:13:30,839
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody that worked at at Vortex Springs

1328
01:13:30,960 --> 01:13:34,479
Speaker 1: is really a suspect in my book. But if you're

1329
01:13:34,520 --> 01:13:37,360
Speaker 1: somebody who hung out at Vortex Springs and you happen

1330
01:13:37,400 --> 01:13:39,120
Speaker 1: to know Ben, and you know he's spending a lot

1331
01:13:39,160 --> 01:13:42,320
Speaker 1: of time, you know, in that cave pushing the envelopen stuff,

1332
01:13:42,720 --> 01:13:44,719
Speaker 1: and for some reason or another, you kill him, either

1333
01:13:44,760 --> 01:13:48,000
Speaker 1: deliberately or accidentally. Well, you get rid of the body

1334
01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:50,840
Speaker 1: and then you go park his truck and then draw

1335
01:13:50,960 --> 01:13:53,360
Speaker 1: and drop some tanks into the end of the vortex.

1336
01:13:54,040 --> 01:13:55,720
Speaker 1: So there's one spot if you dropped him in here,

1337
01:13:55,760 --> 01:13:58,120
Speaker 1: I'm not I don't think a tank would roll all

1338
01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:00,360
Speaker 1: the way down to the gate. I mean if it

1339
01:14:00,400 --> 01:14:03,120
Speaker 1: got past this one. So that what Joe is pointing

1340
01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:05,800
Speaker 1: too is the map, And on the map there's a

1341
01:14:05,800 --> 01:14:09,679
Speaker 1: bit of a bend in the base of the bowl

1342
01:14:09,840 --> 01:14:13,000
Speaker 1: before it rolls into the actual cave itself. Yeah, and

1343
01:14:13,120 --> 01:14:15,840
Speaker 1: I don't think, Joe, I I think what you're getting

1344
01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:18,560
Speaker 1: at is it is nearly impossible for somebody to be

1345
01:14:18,600 --> 01:14:22,360
Speaker 1: able to from the surface to set tanks in. I

1346
01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:24,080
Speaker 1: would have to have them get all the way to

1347
01:14:24,120 --> 01:14:27,320
Speaker 1: the bottom. It would have to be a diver, Yes,

1348
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:30,200
Speaker 1: have to be a diver. But here's here's the thing, though,

1349
01:14:30,200 --> 01:14:32,759
Speaker 1: is that if you got to that cave entrance point

1350
01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:36,400
Speaker 1: this point right here where where it narrows down, and

1351
01:14:36,680 --> 01:14:39,400
Speaker 1: you just started just rolled that thing down, it would

1352
01:14:39,439 --> 01:14:42,400
Speaker 1: go all the way to the gate and it wouldn't

1353
01:14:42,400 --> 01:14:44,320
Speaker 1: go any further. It can't roll any further because there's

1354
01:14:44,320 --> 01:14:46,760
Speaker 1: a gate there. So you can drop it there so

1355
01:14:46,800 --> 01:14:48,840
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, if somebody wanted to if somebody wanted

1356
01:14:48,840 --> 01:14:52,360
Speaker 1: to kill him, somebody wanted to disappear him, disappear him,

1357
01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:57,360
Speaker 1: and then and then totally totally misdirect everything. You take

1358
01:14:57,400 --> 01:14:59,760
Speaker 1: his truck, you park it there, and you put the

1359
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:03,240
Speaker 1: tank in the in the vortex, and then in the spring.

1360
01:15:03,479 --> 01:15:08,200
Speaker 1: I guess, I mean, I guess we don't know that.

1361
01:15:08,439 --> 01:15:10,559
Speaker 1: I mean, we don't know that. We don't know actually

1362
01:15:10,560 --> 01:15:13,400
Speaker 1: that he didn't successfully complete his dive that night and

1363
01:15:13,520 --> 01:15:16,280
Speaker 1: leave and go home. I was just going to say,

1364
01:15:16,439 --> 01:15:20,640
Speaker 1: we don't know with certainty that who what EDWARDO and

1365
01:15:20,720 --> 01:15:24,360
Speaker 1: Chuck saw was in fact Ben. That's true too, I mean,

1366
01:15:24,439 --> 01:15:26,160
Speaker 1: I see, I assume they sort of knew what they

1367
01:15:26,280 --> 01:15:28,280
Speaker 1: identified because he knew what his gear looked like like

1368
01:15:28,360 --> 01:15:30,840
Speaker 1: as wet suiting his tanks. Yeah, but it could have

1369
01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:34,519
Speaker 1: been somebody else in his stuff. I guess that is

1370
01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:39,360
Speaker 1: that is? Are you okay? I'm just gonna I just

1371
01:15:39,400 --> 01:15:41,000
Speaker 1: want to ask you a question, because I'm not sure

1372
01:15:41,000 --> 01:15:42,800
Speaker 1: if I know where you're heading here. Are you saying

1373
01:15:42,840 --> 01:15:45,920
Speaker 1: that it could have been Low in Ben's gear? Not

1374
01:15:46,040 --> 01:15:48,240
Speaker 1: just Low? I'm just saying, if we're going to say

1375
01:15:48,360 --> 01:15:52,800
Speaker 1: somebody had killed Ben and disposed of his body. Then

1376
01:15:52,880 --> 01:15:57,759
Speaker 1: they created this whole other thing, right that Ben maybe

1377
01:15:57,760 --> 01:16:00,240
Speaker 1: didn't actually do. Maybe Ben had been dead for ours,

1378
01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:02,840
Speaker 1: maybe he had not been dead for hours, but that

1379
01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:06,720
Speaker 1: a decoy story was set for him to set up

1380
01:16:06,760 --> 01:16:11,320
Speaker 1: the idea that he I know was the red blue pillar,

1381
01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:15,000
Speaker 1: the blue pillar. Just totally absolutely. But I'm just saying

1382
01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:17,600
Speaker 1: that it is possible because it is. No, it's a

1383
01:16:17,640 --> 01:16:19,640
Speaker 1: that's a good point because you know, how do you

1384
01:16:19,680 --> 01:16:23,360
Speaker 1: identify a guy by his gear? I'm assumed the most

1385
01:16:23,360 --> 01:16:26,040
Speaker 1: part of the dark. Yeah, but all the you know

1386
01:16:26,080 --> 01:16:28,400
Speaker 1: what if I saw the guy based on the video

1387
01:16:28,479 --> 01:16:31,200
Speaker 1: we saw, if I saw him several times, that is

1388
01:16:31,320 --> 01:16:36,200
Speaker 1: it's pretty it's a pretty unique set up. His specific helmet,

1389
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:40,720
Speaker 1: his mask is not every mask is the same, his tanks,

1390
01:16:41,280 --> 01:16:44,639
Speaker 1: but it's gear. It's his gear. So like if somebody

1391
01:16:44,760 --> 01:16:47,080
Speaker 1: dressed in Ben's gear, even if they were like not

1392
01:16:47,280 --> 01:16:50,960
Speaker 1: six feet and two pounds, if they were kind of close,

1393
01:16:51,360 --> 01:16:54,800
Speaker 1: it'd be pretty easy in that much dark to just say, oh, yeah,

1394
01:16:54,800 --> 01:16:57,120
Speaker 1: it's been Yeah. So all this guy was doing is

1395
01:16:57,320 --> 01:16:59,400
Speaker 1: what that guy was doing, and he was just placing

1396
01:16:59,439 --> 01:17:01,599
Speaker 1: the truck there and taking the tanks down to plant them.

1397
01:17:02,160 --> 01:17:05,920
Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean it's not likely, but it's possible. Yeah,

1398
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:08,960
Speaker 1: And and and I think the reason probably the tank

1399
01:17:09,040 --> 01:17:11,240
Speaker 1: wasn't any further than the gate is that guy whoever

1400
01:17:11,280 --> 01:17:14,880
Speaker 1: it was and then again saw hypothetical, really didn't want

1401
01:17:14,880 --> 01:17:17,720
Speaker 1: to go past the gate. Uh maybe in the g

1402
01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:20,200
Speaker 1: yeah exactly. So I'm just I'm just gonna drop it

1403
01:17:20,280 --> 01:17:22,320
Speaker 1: right here. That's good. And so and then and then

1404
01:17:22,640 --> 01:17:24,200
Speaker 1: hung out down in the piano room for a while,

1405
01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:26,040
Speaker 1: just hung out, hung out for a while, you know,

1406
01:17:26,160 --> 01:17:30,120
Speaker 1: and then you know, yeah, and then eventually after it's dark,

1407
01:17:30,200 --> 01:17:32,320
Speaker 1: you know, yes, it's still they're on out and then

1408
01:17:32,720 --> 01:17:35,040
Speaker 1: going on and walk home, and and that in fact,

1409
01:17:35,080 --> 01:17:38,439
Speaker 1: it might be that. So how far you know, the

1410
01:17:39,080 --> 01:17:43,760
Speaker 1: talking box? How far down is that vertically? Yeah, I

1411
01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:47,200
Speaker 1: think it's forty Yeah, it's I think that it's anybody

1412
01:17:47,280 --> 01:17:50,400
Speaker 1: can any regular diver can get to that box. Yeah.

1413
01:17:50,720 --> 01:17:53,240
Speaker 1: So my understanding is this is that so if you

1414
01:17:53,320 --> 01:17:55,240
Speaker 1: hang out down there and you you go through your

1415
01:17:55,320 --> 01:17:59,000
Speaker 1: complete decompression routine. And then was my understanding is that

1416
01:17:59,160 --> 01:18:02,559
Speaker 1: the two tank they found, one down low and one

1417
01:18:02,680 --> 01:18:06,160
Speaker 1: up on the platform where the talking box is. Now

1418
01:18:06,320 --> 01:18:09,120
Speaker 1: imagine you know, you just you just parked the truck there,

1419
01:18:09,640 --> 01:18:12,360
Speaker 1: so you're gonna have to hoof it. You gotta walk aways,

1420
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:15,200
Speaker 1: and do you you gotta you gotta take those tanks

1421
01:18:15,240 --> 01:18:18,519
Speaker 1: with you or you can just leave behind. So whoever

1422
01:18:18,560 --> 01:18:20,880
Speaker 1: it was could have just left them on the platform

1423
01:18:20,960 --> 01:18:23,280
Speaker 1: at the talking box and then just swam up to

1424
01:18:23,280 --> 01:18:27,400
Speaker 1: the surface and gotten out that way. So that's that's

1425
01:18:27,439 --> 01:18:30,280
Speaker 1: just a rough theory. Yeah, I mean we're we're in

1426
01:18:30,320 --> 01:18:33,479
Speaker 1: conjecture canyon at this point first, very much. So, Yeah,

1427
01:18:33,479 --> 01:18:36,760
Speaker 1: because I but I think that foul play is is

1428
01:18:36,840 --> 01:18:40,759
Speaker 1: quite possible here. So I think we've covered that theory

1429
01:18:40,800 --> 01:18:44,000
Speaker 1: and be it to death. Yeah, let's let's go to

1430
01:18:44,040 --> 01:18:47,880
Speaker 1: our final theory. Let's dive into it, which is that

1431
01:18:48,680 --> 01:18:51,320
Speaker 1: Ben ran away and started a new life. He's living

1432
01:18:51,320 --> 01:18:55,120
Speaker 1: out a farm with Dorothy Arnold Amelia Earhart. I know

1433
01:18:55,360 --> 01:18:59,840
Speaker 1: that every disappeared person's story comes across as and they

1434
01:19:00,160 --> 01:19:03,400
Speaker 1: left to start a new life. Actually pretty good. This

1435
01:19:03,400 --> 01:19:07,000
Speaker 1: one's actually got some legs under it, small legs, yes,

1436
01:19:07,000 --> 01:19:10,160
Speaker 1: they're short legs. So it's a very short theory. So

1437
01:19:10,200 --> 01:19:12,320
Speaker 1: we talked about this a little bit already. Is that

1438
01:19:12,360 --> 01:19:16,240
Speaker 1: there's a documentary out there called Ben's vortex, and we

1439
01:19:16,439 --> 01:19:18,720
Speaker 1: haven't really taught. We've talked about things we saw in it,

1440
01:19:18,760 --> 01:19:21,519
Speaker 1: but what it is it's a husband and wife team

1441
01:19:21,800 --> 01:19:25,800
Speaker 1: of documentary makers who also happened to be divers. Well,

1442
01:19:25,800 --> 01:19:29,719
Speaker 1: they're both divers. Jill the wife is a cave diver

1443
01:19:30,040 --> 01:19:36,840
Speaker 1: professional and yeah, Robert McClellan, he is not, but he

1444
01:19:36,960 --> 01:19:41,640
Speaker 1: is a diver. So they started making a documentary and

1445
01:19:41,640 --> 01:19:44,080
Speaker 1: their initial idea was, listen, we're gonna go in, We're

1446
01:19:44,080 --> 01:19:46,680
Speaker 1: gonna film the cave. We're gonna bring this back to

1447
01:19:46,720 --> 01:19:50,400
Speaker 1: Ben's parents so that they understand how what this cave

1448
01:19:50,520 --> 01:19:53,120
Speaker 1: is like and that he's not in there, so that

1449
01:19:53,160 --> 01:19:57,200
Speaker 1: they'll take the reward away, so that they'll stop enticing

1450
01:19:57,240 --> 01:20:01,400
Speaker 1: people to go in there and potentially lose their life. Now,

1451
01:20:01,880 --> 01:20:06,799
Speaker 1: over the course of their documentary, Jill changes her position

1452
01:20:06,840 --> 01:20:09,320
Speaker 1: a hundred and eighty degree. She comes to believe that

1453
01:20:09,400 --> 01:20:13,559
Speaker 1: Ben is in the cave based on his maps, but

1454
01:20:13,880 --> 01:20:17,160
Speaker 1: her husband, he Robert, he's still to this day thinks

1455
01:20:17,200 --> 01:20:22,040
Speaker 1: that Ben just skipped down. That I appreciate that bit

1456
01:20:22,120 --> 01:20:26,160
Speaker 1: about this documentary the most because they don't follow a

1457
01:20:26,200 --> 01:20:29,360
Speaker 1: common line. They don't and and she outright says like

1458
01:20:29,520 --> 01:20:32,320
Speaker 1: I really want to say he's not in the cave,

1459
01:20:32,760 --> 01:20:37,120
Speaker 1: but I think he's in the cave, which is crazy,

1460
01:20:37,439 --> 01:20:41,639
Speaker 1: especially because her husband even says sorry. But her husband

1461
01:20:41,640 --> 01:20:43,720
Speaker 1: even says, you are the one who presented me with

1462
01:20:43,760 --> 01:20:45,720
Speaker 1: all of the evidence to say that he is not

1463
01:20:45,800 --> 01:20:47,439
Speaker 1: in the cave, which is why I think he's not

1464
01:20:47,520 --> 01:20:49,080
Speaker 1: in the cave. And she goes, I know, but I

1465
01:20:49,160 --> 01:20:52,280
Speaker 1: think he's in the cave. It's great, like it's a

1466
01:20:52,360 --> 01:20:54,400
Speaker 1: totally it's a hung jury. It's one of a few

1467
01:20:54,400 --> 01:20:57,559
Speaker 1: times you see that. So here's the here's the thing

1468
01:20:57,560 --> 01:21:02,479
Speaker 1: about the the documentary. It's really interesting. But Ben's parents,

1469
01:21:02,520 --> 01:21:05,439
Speaker 1: they go to visit the family and they are very

1470
01:21:05,560 --> 01:21:09,200
Speaker 1: open with these folks, and they let them film everything

1471
01:21:09,240 --> 01:21:13,040
Speaker 1: and they talk with them, and at one point they

1472
01:21:13,080 --> 01:21:15,599
Speaker 1: come to realize that Ben is not their only son,

1473
01:21:15,760 --> 01:21:18,960
Speaker 1: but they actually have three sons. Uh. And they had

1474
01:21:19,000 --> 01:21:22,120
Speaker 1: a son whose name was Paul, and he had died

1475
01:21:22,160 --> 01:21:25,800
Speaker 1: two years prior, at the age of twenty two from

1476
01:21:25,840 --> 01:21:28,280
Speaker 1: a stroke or if you if you look go out

1477
01:21:28,280 --> 01:21:30,519
Speaker 1: and read, and he died of an overdose. But you know, well,

1478
01:21:30,560 --> 01:21:32,559
Speaker 1: that's that's what that's what it starts to come out

1479
01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:36,479
Speaker 1: as they start looking at the autopsy, and as they

1480
01:21:36,520 --> 01:21:40,240
Speaker 1: start um digging into some of the history, they come

1481
01:21:40,280 --> 01:21:45,519
Speaker 1: to question the stroke theory. So they settle on and

1482
01:21:45,560 --> 01:21:48,800
Speaker 1: they get the it's the autopsic report, right, They get

1483
01:21:48,840 --> 01:21:52,320
Speaker 1: the autopsy report and it says overdose on it. So

1484
01:21:52,479 --> 01:21:55,360
Speaker 1: then they start to think about what the family has

1485
01:21:55,400 --> 01:21:59,960
Speaker 1: done and they realized that, well, they're they're strangely controlled

1486
01:22:00,120 --> 01:22:04,200
Speaker 1: about information and the way things are presented, which from

1487
01:22:04,200 --> 01:22:06,840
Speaker 1: one perspective, I totally get their grieving family and they

1488
01:22:06,920 --> 01:22:09,720
Speaker 1: want their child to be put in the best light.

1489
01:22:09,880 --> 01:22:13,080
Speaker 1: But on the other side, they start this whole thing,

1490
01:22:13,400 --> 01:22:18,720
Speaker 1: this whole foundation for stroke prevention, which is something that

1491
01:22:18,760 --> 01:22:23,800
Speaker 1: their kid didn't die from. So it's a little kind

1492
01:22:23,800 --> 01:22:27,080
Speaker 1: of heading it up and everything. Yeah, so it's very questionable.

1493
01:22:27,560 --> 01:22:30,679
Speaker 1: And as you read correspondence from Ben to his family,

1494
01:22:31,120 --> 01:22:35,080
Speaker 1: he always makes sure it always did everything that he writes,

1495
01:22:35,320 --> 01:22:38,880
Speaker 1: he's always thanking his parents for everything they've done. Now

1496
01:22:38,920 --> 01:22:42,120
Speaker 1: that could be because a he realizes how much they've

1497
01:22:42,160 --> 01:22:45,880
Speaker 1: done for him and he is sincerely thankful, or it's

1498
01:22:45,920 --> 01:22:50,519
Speaker 1: brought up maybe that's because he is required to say

1499
01:22:50,560 --> 01:22:54,439
Speaker 1: those kind of things for the cash to keep coming

1500
01:22:54,479 --> 01:22:58,360
Speaker 1: in or the hell to not rain down and I

1501
01:22:58,439 --> 01:23:01,240
Speaker 1: don't I don't know, I mean just conjecture. Well, and

1502
01:23:01,280 --> 01:23:03,680
Speaker 1: we should clarify that when we say required, it's not

1503
01:23:03,760 --> 01:23:05,960
Speaker 1: as though his parents said, listen, if you don't say

1504
01:23:06,000 --> 01:23:08,360
Speaker 1: to us every single time, it's a learned behavior. It's

1505
01:23:08,360 --> 01:23:10,639
Speaker 1: a learned behavior, right. I mean, I think almost every

1506
01:23:10,720 --> 01:23:14,040
Speaker 1: kid who's ever relied on their parents as an adult

1507
01:23:14,600 --> 01:23:18,200
Speaker 1: learns that what you I mean, whether you feel it

1508
01:23:18,320 --> 01:23:21,680
Speaker 1: or not, you have to say, I am so thankful

1509
01:23:21,760 --> 01:23:24,519
Speaker 1: to you, and that's how you keep getting things. Yeah. Absolutely,

1510
01:23:24,720 --> 01:23:27,400
Speaker 1: it's true. Because as soon as you start saying, ah, man,

1511
01:23:27,520 --> 01:23:30,400
Speaker 1: screw you guys, they're gonna be like, okay, just kidding,

1512
01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:32,800
Speaker 1: we won't give you a bunch of Hey mom, Dad,

1513
01:23:32,880 --> 01:23:35,759
Speaker 1: you're a total senter jerks. Oh well, you know it's positive.

1514
01:23:35,800 --> 01:23:37,639
Speaker 1: We're going to make for you because we love you.

1515
01:23:37,840 --> 01:23:39,640
Speaker 1: Never mind, we don't love you that, we don't love

1516
01:23:39,640 --> 01:23:43,760
Speaker 1: you that much. Instead, Dad wants a new new motorcycle.

1517
01:23:44,120 --> 01:23:46,599
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's that's that's the way it comes across.

1518
01:23:46,600 --> 01:23:51,760
Speaker 1: Its completely possible. So now, so let me get this straight. So, um, so,

1519
01:23:51,800 --> 01:23:55,360
Speaker 1: he's living for free in this condo in Florida, and

1520
01:23:55,840 --> 01:23:59,080
Speaker 1: um and also getting cash with the parents and all

1521
01:23:59,120 --> 01:24:02,160
Speaker 1: he's got to do is say thanks occasionally. So is

1522
01:24:02,200 --> 01:24:04,200
Speaker 1: that the kind of job you would quit? No? No,

1523
01:24:04,680 --> 01:24:07,000
Speaker 1: And that is my problem with this theory is that

1524
01:24:07,120 --> 01:24:10,080
Speaker 1: if Ben ran away, let's the theory is just so

1525
01:24:10,120 --> 01:24:12,960
Speaker 1: we lay it out in its entirety, is that Ben

1526
01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:18,639
Speaker 1: went down, Ben came up and marched on foot with

1527
01:24:18,800 --> 01:24:23,720
Speaker 1: his gear out of vortex springs, or had somebody meet

1528
01:24:23,880 --> 01:24:27,599
Speaker 1: him and took him there and left his truck behind.

1529
01:24:28,280 --> 01:24:31,200
Speaker 1: My problem with that theory is that he would have

1530
01:24:31,240 --> 01:24:33,879
Speaker 1: had to start over, so he wouldn't have had any cash.

1531
01:24:34,000 --> 01:24:36,000
Speaker 1: So it seems crazy to me that he would have

1532
01:24:36,080 --> 01:24:39,519
Speaker 1: left the wallet with seven bucks in it exactly I mean,

1533
01:24:39,560 --> 01:24:42,439
Speaker 1: I mean it leads credibility to the dying idea. If

1534
01:24:42,439 --> 01:24:44,759
Speaker 1: you leave a wallet with least a couple of hundred

1535
01:24:44,760 --> 01:24:48,160
Speaker 1: bucks in it, but seven hundred bucks and also also

1536
01:24:48,240 --> 01:24:50,880
Speaker 1: the dog. You know, he left his dog behind. His

1537
01:24:51,000 --> 01:24:54,960
Speaker 1: dog could have starved. The dog is troubling. The cash

1538
01:24:55,040 --> 01:24:58,000
Speaker 1: is less troubling to me. It doesn't seem to me

1539
01:24:58,240 --> 01:25:01,280
Speaker 1: that seven hundred dollars seemed like a ton of money

1540
01:25:01,320 --> 01:25:05,080
Speaker 1: to him, given that he was having seen the house

1541
01:25:05,120 --> 01:25:07,880
Speaker 1: that he grew up in in Tennessee. And you know,

1542
01:25:07,920 --> 01:25:09,960
Speaker 1: it's possible that he had a bunch of money while

1543
01:25:10,000 --> 01:25:12,000
Speaker 1: away and it was just like whatever he had in

1544
01:25:12,120 --> 01:25:14,519
Speaker 1: his wallet at the time. I mean, yeah, I think

1545
01:25:14,520 --> 01:25:16,200
Speaker 1: seven hundred dollars a lot of money. I think most

1546
01:25:16,200 --> 01:25:18,000
Speaker 1: people do. But I also didn't grow up in a

1547
01:25:18,040 --> 01:25:20,760
Speaker 1: house like he did. But my, I guess my my

1548
01:25:20,920 --> 01:25:24,080
Speaker 1: issue and why I pointed the seven hundred bucks is

1549
01:25:24,120 --> 01:25:26,679
Speaker 1: that he's going to have to start over. And chances

1550
01:25:26,720 --> 01:25:29,400
Speaker 1: are when he starts over, he's going to have to

1551
01:25:29,520 --> 01:25:33,519
Speaker 1: start over in a lifestyle he is entirely not accustomed to.

1552
01:25:34,320 --> 01:25:36,960
Speaker 1: So knowing that you were going to have to live

1553
01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:40,840
Speaker 1: like you've cheaper and than you've ever done it, and

1554
01:25:40,960 --> 01:25:45,200
Speaker 1: so under the radar, you take every dollar that you

1555
01:25:45,360 --> 01:25:48,720
Speaker 1: could conceivably take. That That's what I would if if

1556
01:25:48,760 --> 01:25:51,599
Speaker 1: I was going to disappear. Yeah, but you've lived poor before.

1557
01:25:51,880 --> 01:25:54,320
Speaker 1: I have. Yeah, So like I know some kids who

1558
01:25:54,320 --> 01:25:57,400
Speaker 1: have never lived poor before in their entire lives. And

1559
01:25:57,439 --> 01:26:01,400
Speaker 1: then like we went to college and suddenly their parents

1560
01:26:01,400 --> 01:26:04,000
Speaker 1: were like, well, we'll give you seven d a month

1561
01:26:04,040 --> 01:26:06,559
Speaker 1: allowance and they were like, I can't live on that

1562
01:26:06,640 --> 01:26:10,040
Speaker 1: would mean seven hundred dollars a month and For me,

1563
01:26:11,160 --> 01:26:14,160
Speaker 1: it was mind boggling, right, because that's like, that's so

1564
01:26:14,280 --> 01:26:16,640
Speaker 1: much money. You can do almost anything you want with

1565
01:26:16,680 --> 01:26:19,440
Speaker 1: that amount of money. Well, it depends. And if that's

1566
01:26:19,439 --> 01:26:23,160
Speaker 1: that's after after rent, No, no, no, that's like their

1567
01:26:23,160 --> 01:26:25,719
Speaker 1: parents were paying for everything that was there, like spending

1568
01:26:25,720 --> 01:26:29,680
Speaker 1: money that they're walking around. No, that's really good. But

1569
01:26:29,720 --> 01:26:31,680
Speaker 1: I think that there are kids in this world, and

1570
01:26:31,680 --> 01:26:33,400
Speaker 1: I mean it's possible that he got to the age

1571
01:26:33,400 --> 01:26:36,000
Speaker 1: of thirty where he just like, I mean, you don't

1572
01:26:36,040 --> 01:26:38,640
Speaker 1: get fifty thou dollars in debt to the I R

1573
01:26:38,800 --> 01:26:43,320
Speaker 1: S for not spending any money, right, you don't incur

1574
01:26:43,479 --> 01:26:45,840
Speaker 1: as much debt and have as much stuff going on

1575
01:26:46,240 --> 01:26:49,800
Speaker 1: for not living large or beyond your means. So I

1576
01:26:49,840 --> 01:26:52,800
Speaker 1: think it's possible that you know, what's the it's the

1577
01:26:52,880 --> 01:26:55,320
Speaker 1: rest of development. Quote, what is it a banana? How

1578
01:26:55,400 --> 01:26:57,439
Speaker 1: much could it cost? Ten dollars? Like, I think there

1579
01:26:57,479 --> 01:27:00,200
Speaker 1: are people in this world who have no idea, and

1580
01:27:00,240 --> 01:27:02,719
Speaker 1: so seven may seem like, no, I don't, I don't

1581
01:27:02,760 --> 01:27:06,840
Speaker 1: need that amount of money, And it's entirely possible. I mean,

1582
01:27:06,880 --> 01:27:09,240
Speaker 1: I don't think that Ben showed up in Florida with

1583
01:27:09,880 --> 01:27:13,240
Speaker 1: you know, five tanks. He probably picked up tanks while

1584
01:27:13,280 --> 01:27:15,200
Speaker 1: he was there, and he may I mean there was

1585
01:27:16,040 --> 01:27:17,880
Speaker 1: Joe was t and I were talking about this earlier.

1586
01:27:17,960 --> 01:27:21,040
Speaker 1: Their standard sized tanks. It's not like he bought anything crazy,

1587
01:27:21,080 --> 01:27:23,640
Speaker 1: but tanks are cheap. No, no, no, yeah, they were

1588
01:27:23,640 --> 01:27:28,160
Speaker 1: there like tanks. He himself a set of tanks, or

1589
01:27:28,160 --> 01:27:32,200
Speaker 1: at least a set of tanks and gear. Yeah, you're right.

1590
01:27:32,400 --> 01:27:36,320
Speaker 1: It is a situation where he may not have and

1591
01:27:36,400 --> 01:27:38,599
Speaker 1: that possibly could have been what got him in trouble

1592
01:27:38,640 --> 01:27:41,240
Speaker 1: in his businesses. He didn't understand the way the world

1593
01:27:41,240 --> 01:27:45,200
Speaker 1: works when it comes to money. Entirely possible and go ahead.

1594
01:27:45,400 --> 01:27:47,120
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say he was also doing that

1595
01:27:47,400 --> 01:27:50,280
Speaker 1: real estate thing, and well he started out in construction

1596
01:27:50,320 --> 01:27:52,559
Speaker 1: and he thought he could spin himself into real estates

1597
01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:54,679
Speaker 1: and but that was like it was like a pyramid scheme.

1598
01:27:54,720 --> 01:27:59,040
Speaker 1: Real estate. Also the year and also the year was

1599
01:27:59,040 --> 01:28:02,040
Speaker 1: two thousand ten is one of the real estate markets

1600
01:28:02,320 --> 01:28:05,719
Speaker 1: was really in a crapper. The thing about it is

1601
01:28:05,720 --> 01:28:08,639
Speaker 1: is the whole disappearing thing is I just don't see

1602
01:28:08,640 --> 01:28:11,439
Speaker 1: what it got him. I agree, you know, I mean

1603
01:28:11,920 --> 01:28:15,439
Speaker 1: the negatives are well, the positives are basically nothing possible.

1604
01:28:16,200 --> 01:28:19,640
Speaker 1: The positive are you're out from underneath the thumb of

1605
01:28:19,720 --> 01:28:22,599
Speaker 1: mom and dad and you are free of them. Who. Yeah,

1606
01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:24,800
Speaker 1: but you don't need to disappear to do that. Well,

1607
01:28:24,800 --> 01:28:26,559
Speaker 1: you might need to disappear to get rid of your

1608
01:28:26,560 --> 01:28:29,360
Speaker 1: fifty dollars worth of debt to the I R S. Yeah,

1609
01:28:29,400 --> 01:28:32,200
Speaker 1: I did hear. I did hear one rumor online at

1610
01:28:32,200 --> 01:28:35,760
Speaker 1: the fifty grand had actually been paid off. I've never

1611
01:28:35,840 --> 01:28:38,600
Speaker 1: seen that. I'm not I'm not sing I did see that.

1612
01:28:38,720 --> 01:28:40,280
Speaker 1: I did see that, But you know, I could be

1613
01:28:40,280 --> 01:28:43,320
Speaker 1: wrong about that. But you know, maybe his parents paid

1614
01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:45,080
Speaker 1: it off and they just said, hey, you know, some

1615
01:28:45,240 --> 01:28:48,280
Speaker 1: whenever you're whenever you're rack back in money, whenever you're

1616
01:28:48,320 --> 01:28:49,880
Speaker 1: back in the money and you've got a lot of money,

1617
01:28:49,880 --> 01:28:52,080
Speaker 1: you can pay us back. Please please do it. Otherwise

1618
01:28:52,080 --> 01:28:53,840
Speaker 1: we'll just take it out of your inheritance or something

1619
01:28:53,840 --> 01:28:55,519
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, I mean it could have been something

1620
01:28:55,560 --> 01:28:57,880
Speaker 1: like that. I wish you had inherit. I mean, no

1621
01:28:58,000 --> 01:29:00,320
Speaker 1: doubt me too. Yeah. And the thing of hot it

1622
01:29:00,400 --> 01:29:02,439
Speaker 1: is is, I mean he was walking away from some

1623
01:29:02,479 --> 01:29:03,880
Speaker 1: good stuff. I mean he had a dog, he had

1624
01:29:03,920 --> 01:29:07,639
Speaker 1: a he had a girlfriend, and and I've seen I've

1625
01:29:07,680 --> 01:29:10,080
Speaker 1: seen stuff on the webs on the web about how,

1626
01:29:10,280 --> 01:29:12,559
Speaker 1: oh my god, his parents were horrible people. Well, I don't.

1627
01:29:12,600 --> 01:29:14,479
Speaker 1: I don't think they were. I don't think they worry either,

1628
01:29:14,800 --> 01:29:17,320
Speaker 1: and I don't. For me, my biggest drawback on the

1629
01:29:17,360 --> 01:29:21,679
Speaker 1: Walking Away from Life is to see how Paul's death

1630
01:29:21,760 --> 01:29:24,599
Speaker 1: affected his family and to know that I don't think

1631
01:29:24,640 --> 01:29:27,960
Speaker 1: that Ben was like a horrible guy. And I can't

1632
01:29:28,000 --> 01:29:30,920
Speaker 1: imagine even if you didn't really care that much about

1633
01:29:30,920 --> 01:29:35,200
Speaker 1: your family, putting your family through something like that. Absolutely. Yeah,

1634
01:29:35,400 --> 01:29:38,679
Speaker 1: well that's my biggest Okay, so the things that I

1635
01:29:38,720 --> 01:29:41,360
Speaker 1: see that could and I'm going to do this and

1636
01:29:41,360 --> 01:29:45,720
Speaker 1: then let's let's finish. The theory is that his if

1637
01:29:45,800 --> 01:29:48,720
Speaker 1: he believed his brother had died of a stroke, or

1638
01:29:49,240 --> 01:29:51,479
Speaker 1: knew that his brother didn't actually die of a stroke,

1639
01:29:51,520 --> 01:29:54,640
Speaker 1: but his parents put up this front that said it

1640
01:29:54,680 --> 01:29:56,679
Speaker 1: was a stroke and we're gonna do all this stuff

1641
01:29:56,720 --> 01:29:58,519
Speaker 1: and by way, by the way, you're gonna be the

1642
01:29:58,560 --> 01:30:02,160
Speaker 1: front man of that organ ization, he may have kind

1643
01:30:02,200 --> 01:30:05,599
Speaker 1: of just got sick of it. I can't take this anymore.

1644
01:30:06,320 --> 01:30:09,360
Speaker 1: The other thing that may have driven it driven him

1645
01:30:09,400 --> 01:30:12,720
Speaker 1: to that was he had not too long before he disappeared,

1646
01:30:12,760 --> 01:30:15,519
Speaker 1: gone home. And one of the things that you see

1647
01:30:15,520 --> 01:30:17,960
Speaker 1: in Ben's vortex is you You go through the house,

1648
01:30:18,840 --> 01:30:22,559
Speaker 1: and I would call it a shrine. There is a

1649
01:30:22,680 --> 01:30:28,360
Speaker 1: shrine to Paul in a single room. It is nothing

1650
01:30:28,439 --> 01:30:31,200
Speaker 1: but Paul. Same thing now for Ben. And they got

1651
01:30:31,200 --> 01:30:33,000
Speaker 1: a house big enough that they have an entire room

1652
01:30:33,080 --> 01:30:38,920
Speaker 1: dedicated to this one person, to himself. Well, but he

1653
01:30:38,960 --> 01:30:41,400
Speaker 1: may have I mean, it may have been the situation

1654
01:30:41,479 --> 01:30:43,840
Speaker 1: where he had to walk, you know, his parents and

1655
01:30:43,880 --> 01:30:45,680
Speaker 1: go visit Paul, and he had to go in there

1656
01:30:45,680 --> 01:30:47,559
Speaker 1: and he just feels, you know, it feels like he's

1657
01:30:47,600 --> 01:30:52,000
Speaker 1: betraying the truth and just so sick and so fed up.

1658
01:30:52,400 --> 01:30:54,479
Speaker 1: And I mean, I know people get that way. And

1659
01:30:55,040 --> 01:30:57,599
Speaker 1: it may have been that he said, I'm gonna hatch

1660
01:30:57,640 --> 01:31:00,360
Speaker 1: this cocka baby plan and I'm getting the hell out

1661
01:31:00,360 --> 01:31:02,960
Speaker 1: of Dodge and I never have to see you people

1662
01:31:02,960 --> 01:31:05,759
Speaker 1: again because your liars and I can't take it anymore

1663
01:31:08,240 --> 01:31:14,800
Speaker 1: making this up. I think that probably he might have

1664
01:31:14,840 --> 01:31:17,479
Speaker 1: been totally on board with the whole thing about about

1665
01:31:17,520 --> 01:31:21,040
Speaker 1: hushing up, the whole overdose thing. What's Joe, what's your

1666
01:31:21,040 --> 01:31:24,439
Speaker 1: favorite theory? My favorite theory is that somebody killed him

1667
01:31:24,439 --> 01:31:25,840
Speaker 1: and made it look like he died on a dive.

1668
01:31:27,040 --> 01:31:30,800
Speaker 1: I think he's in a crevice somewhere. I'm tied. I'm

1669
01:31:31,680 --> 01:31:34,680
Speaker 1: that he's in the cave. I am seventy percent that

1670
01:31:34,760 --> 01:31:38,120
Speaker 1: he is not in the cave. And I believe that

1671
01:31:38,320 --> 01:31:44,800
Speaker 1: of that set is Lowell Kelly is involved. I don't

1672
01:31:44,840 --> 01:31:47,040
Speaker 1: know how. I don't know where he's at, but I don't.

1673
01:31:47,080 --> 01:31:49,280
Speaker 1: I really, I don't believe he's in there. I would

1674
01:31:49,320 --> 01:31:53,200
Speaker 1: say low Kelly in my mind is like involved, but

1675
01:31:53,240 --> 01:31:56,000
Speaker 1: I think he probably is just in the cave. Okay,

1676
01:31:56,080 --> 01:31:59,240
Speaker 1: it's interesting, are all three different? Yeah, I don't think

1677
01:31:59,280 --> 01:32:02,160
Speaker 1: Lowell Kelly would be involved. Again, because you don't crap

1678
01:32:02,160 --> 01:32:06,000
Speaker 1: in your own nest um. He could be looking at chicken. Yeah,

1679
01:32:06,040 --> 01:32:09,519
Speaker 1: I mean, given the fact that there is evidence that

1680
01:32:10,160 --> 01:32:12,799
Speaker 1: you know, I mean cars parked there, he left tanks behind.

1681
01:32:13,320 --> 01:32:17,160
Speaker 1: There's it looks like maybe he drowned in the cave. Lawsuit,

1682
01:32:18,000 --> 01:32:20,960
Speaker 1: you know, I mean seriously, and so or if it's murder,

1683
01:32:21,040 --> 01:32:23,240
Speaker 1: it's not a lawsuit. They have to sign a waiver. Well,

1684
01:32:23,240 --> 01:32:25,519
Speaker 1: there's that, but waivers. Waivers can always be broken by

1685
01:32:25,600 --> 01:32:29,080
Speaker 1: the wouldn't have signed a waiver? Yeah, Ben wasn't allowed

1686
01:32:29,280 --> 01:32:31,760
Speaker 1: to go in the cave. Yeah, it wasn't. Yeah, And

1687
01:32:31,840 --> 01:32:35,800
Speaker 1: so there hasn't been a law suit against them because

1688
01:32:35,800 --> 01:32:37,719
Speaker 1: there's no body to prove that he died in the cave.

1689
01:32:38,479 --> 01:32:40,360
Speaker 1: That's why I think that that he's not in the cave,

1690
01:32:40,400 --> 01:32:43,000
Speaker 1: and I think Lolls involved. I think he died. This

1691
01:32:43,240 --> 01:32:46,760
Speaker 1: jerk went in there and never sign a waiver. Yeah,

1692
01:32:46,760 --> 01:32:49,760
Speaker 1: you're gonna get the pantsuit off of me. Yeah, exactly.

1693
01:32:49,800 --> 01:32:53,519
Speaker 1: But so he disposed of the body, but he didn't

1694
01:32:53,560 --> 01:32:56,439
Speaker 1: dispose of the tanks in the truck. Again, I'm sorry,

1695
01:32:58,680 --> 01:33:02,320
Speaker 1: we're laboring the crow about of this all right. So

1696
01:33:02,360 --> 01:33:05,599
Speaker 1: at this point we have gone over this story quite

1697
01:33:05,600 --> 01:33:10,679
Speaker 1: a lot if you if you want to read any

1698
01:33:10,720 --> 01:33:13,519
Speaker 1: more about it, we will have links to it on

1699
01:33:13,560 --> 01:33:18,240
Speaker 1: our website website of course Thinking Sideways podcast dot com.

1700
01:33:18,479 --> 01:33:20,759
Speaker 1: On the link there you can listen to the show.

1701
01:33:20,840 --> 01:33:24,400
Speaker 1: You can download or stream it. We will also have

1702
01:33:24,520 --> 01:33:27,280
Speaker 1: there on the website on the right hand side, there

1703
01:33:27,479 --> 01:33:29,479
Speaker 1: is going to be links to merch so we have

1704
01:33:29,560 --> 01:33:33,559
Speaker 1: merchandise available if you want. We also have options to

1705
01:33:33,720 --> 01:33:36,880
Speaker 1: support the show if you're so inclined. We have the

1706
01:33:36,920 --> 01:33:41,240
Speaker 1: PayPal for a one time donation option or links to Patreon,

1707
01:33:41,320 --> 01:33:45,240
Speaker 1: which is patreon dot com slash Thinking Sideways Patreon is

1708
01:33:45,280 --> 01:33:48,599
Speaker 1: a sustaining donation. It's a it's a per episode donation.

1709
01:33:48,920 --> 01:33:51,519
Speaker 1: However much you're comfortable with, or if you're not with,

1710
01:33:52,200 --> 01:33:55,719
Speaker 1: we get it, so it's totally voluntary. We love everybody

1711
01:33:55,720 --> 01:33:59,080
Speaker 1: who is currently using Patreon. Thank you so much. It

1712
01:33:59,160 --> 01:34:02,400
Speaker 1: is a massive but it is not a requirement. So

1713
01:34:03,120 --> 01:34:07,280
Speaker 1: we also have the ability to be listened to and downloaded,

1714
01:34:07,360 --> 01:34:10,400
Speaker 1: and a lot of people do. This is through iTunes.

1715
01:34:10,920 --> 01:34:13,320
Speaker 1: If you're on iTunes, please do take the time to

1716
01:34:13,400 --> 01:34:16,400
Speaker 1: leave a comment and a rating, a nice rating. If

1717
01:34:16,400 --> 01:34:20,040
Speaker 1: you've got an objection with something specific about the show.

1718
01:34:20,840 --> 01:34:22,519
Speaker 1: We would much rather that you get a hold of

1719
01:34:22,600 --> 01:34:25,000
Speaker 1: us by emails so that we can talk about it,

1720
01:34:25,120 --> 01:34:26,600
Speaker 1: because we can't really talk to you when you just

1721
01:34:26,680 --> 01:34:29,400
Speaker 1: leave a random comment on iTunes. If you want to

1722
01:34:29,439 --> 01:34:31,240
Speaker 1: do that though, and get a hold of us, you

1723
01:34:31,240 --> 01:34:33,799
Speaker 1: can send us the email. The email address is Thinking

1724
01:34:33,840 --> 01:34:38,360
Speaker 1: Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. We are available to

1725
01:34:38,640 --> 01:34:42,400
Speaker 1: stream as well as iTunes. People are streaming us on

1726
01:34:42,439 --> 01:34:45,200
Speaker 1: so many websites. We can get in tons of emails. Yeah,

1727
01:34:45,320 --> 01:34:48,720
Speaker 1: they're they're all over the place. We're also on the

1728
01:34:48,800 --> 01:34:53,120
Speaker 1: social media, so we have the Twitter account two the

1729
01:34:53,120 --> 01:34:56,800
Speaker 1: Twitter and the Facebook so Twitter is thinking sideways without

1730
01:34:56,840 --> 01:34:59,559
Speaker 1: the G in the middle. And for Facebook, we have

1731
01:34:59,640 --> 01:35:02,320
Speaker 1: the face book page and the Facebook group, so you

1732
01:35:02,360 --> 01:35:06,040
Speaker 1: can follow the page or like the page and then

1733
01:35:06,360 --> 01:35:10,120
Speaker 1: join the group because there's always conversations about episodes that

1734
01:35:10,160 --> 01:35:12,160
Speaker 1: we've talked about, as well as all kinds of other

1735
01:35:12,280 --> 01:35:14,920
Speaker 1: random mystery stuff on there. Well, I love it, that

1736
01:35:15,479 --> 01:35:18,400
Speaker 1: was it? Who was it? Frederick gasoline, plus of the

1737
01:35:18,439 --> 01:35:27,200
Speaker 1: comment on it today your yeah Frederick challenge. There's always

1738
01:35:27,240 --> 01:35:29,280
Speaker 1: some really fun stuff going on in the group. It's

1739
01:35:29,320 --> 01:35:31,599
Speaker 1: a good group of people. Yeah, And the only thing

1740
01:35:31,640 --> 01:35:33,880
Speaker 1: I haven't talked about yet is that we do also

1741
01:35:33,920 --> 01:35:37,040
Speaker 1: have a subreddit. So the subreddit is there. People are

1742
01:35:37,040 --> 01:35:40,120
Speaker 1: slowly but surely joining up, so you can join that

1743
01:35:40,160 --> 01:35:43,360
Speaker 1: if you'd like to talk about episodes in there, and

1744
01:35:43,720 --> 01:35:47,439
Speaker 1: you two have any other things that we've missed and

1745
01:35:47,800 --> 01:35:49,920
Speaker 1: talk about. He's not in the cave. That's about it.

1746
01:35:50,200 --> 01:35:52,720
Speaker 1: He's in the cave. Not in the cave. He's in

1747
01:35:52,720 --> 01:36:03,360
Speaker 1: the cave. Yeah he is, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Kay Bye.