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Speaker 1: Every day A waiting up the Breakfast Club.

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Speaker 2: You're fineish for y'all dump morning.

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Speaker 1: Everybody is DJ Envy, just hilarious, charlamage.

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Speaker 2: God.

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Speaker 1: We are the Breakfast Club, long the Roses. Here today

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Speaker 1: we got some special guest in the building from the

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Speaker 1: documentary on Netflix, Songs from the Whole. We have James

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Speaker 1: Jacobs JJ eighty eight. We have Contessa Gales and Richie Recida. Welcome,

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Speaker 1: how you guys feeling.

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Speaker 2: It's on Netflix right now, by the way, Yes.

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Speaker 1: How y'all feeling?

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Speaker 2: Feeling gravy to be here now.

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Speaker 1: For people that haven't seen the documentary, break down what

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Speaker 1: the documentary is about.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's a documentary visual album. We tell the story

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Speaker 3: of my life. When I was fifteen, I was incarcerated

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Speaker 3: for a second degree murder and during that time I

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Speaker 3: spent eighteen years in prison, and during that time I

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Speaker 3: wrote an album. I met him, We produced and recorded

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Speaker 3: that album in prison, and I wrote the visuals. We

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Speaker 3: met Contesta and it's good of his film.

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Speaker 2: Essentially. Also, I want to ask you something.

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Speaker 4: You know, fifteen and you committed a crime it was murder,

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Speaker 4: and then three days later your brother was killed. But

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Speaker 4: how did those two events so close together, I guess

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Speaker 4: shape your sense of identity and ultimately give you purpose.

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Speaker 3: I guess, oh yeah, Well, at first it took me

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Speaker 3: down like a really dark like mental place, and after

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Speaker 3: coming through like you know, suicidal ideations, and just at

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Speaker 3: first I just felt like, at first I just felt

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Speaker 3: kind of purposeless. I took a life which at fifteen

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Speaker 3: it's kind of hard to hold and really recognize the

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Speaker 3: gravity of it. But by the time I was eighteen

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Speaker 3: and in prison, I just kind of felt worthless and

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Speaker 3: without hope. And losing my brother within that span was

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Speaker 3: kind of like he was kind of who I was

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Speaker 3: emulating and admiring growing up.

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Speaker 5: So it really devastated me.

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Speaker 3: And however, like through music is like it kind of

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Speaker 3: gave me a place to talk about it and talk

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Speaker 3: about what me and the homies was just experiencing what

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Speaker 3: me and my family went through, and so through I

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Speaker 3: guess through music is where I kind of found purpose

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Speaker 3: in my story and where I could use it.

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Speaker 4: I want to talk about when you was fifteen, man,

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Speaker 4: because you said something that I often feel like with

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Speaker 4: these kids, and all all of us were kids at

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Speaker 4: once some point, you make a terrible choice a temporary

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Speaker 4: decision at leads. I mean if temporary feeling leads to

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Speaker 4: a permanent decision. You know, do you really understand the

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Speaker 4: consequences of your actions at that time?

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Speaker 3: I mean not in the way that I do now

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Speaker 3: when you're fifteen, you know. I mean, I think when

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Speaker 3: I was a kid, I knew if you shoot.

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Speaker 5: Someone, they could die.

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Speaker 3: Like I know that I've seen people die, I've seen

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Speaker 3: violence in my community, but I don't think I knew

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Speaker 3: what it meant for real, like the finality of it

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Speaker 3: at fifteen. I don't think I knew truly at fifteen

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Speaker 3: the impact it was having not only on this person

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Speaker 3: but their family.

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Speaker 5: When there's people.

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Speaker 3: That I've like got back in touch with since I

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Speaker 3: got home, who were you know, there that night and

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Speaker 3: had to witness that, and that night altered their life.

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Speaker 3: And I didn't learn that until I was in my thirties.

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Speaker 3: So you don't at fifteen. You don't understand the gravity

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Speaker 3: of it, but you do understand that it is serious.

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Speaker 3: And the older I got, the more mature I became,

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Speaker 3: the more I understood how serious it is, which is

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Speaker 3: why we made this film.

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Speaker 1: For real, there you were charged as an adult, not

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Speaker 1: a child. Why was that.

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Speaker 3: Because California is racist to put it simple.

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Speaker 1: Yes, at fifteen serving eighteen years, it just seems like

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Speaker 1: in any other state you would have been charged as

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Speaker 1: a child and giving a second chance, another opportunity on.

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Speaker 3: Nah, They doing it in other states too, They charged,

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Speaker 3: They charged kids as adults because they want to take

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Speaker 3: away futures and they have a belief in this like

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Speaker 3: punishment system. We live in a culture where revenge is normal.

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Speaker 3: We value it as a culture. Revenge is something that

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Speaker 3: we explore. Me being a perpetrator of murder and having

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Speaker 3: my brother murdered, it's something that I had to face

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Speaker 3: for myself, you know. So the reason why they charge

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Speaker 3: us as adults when we're kids is because they believe

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Speaker 3: in revenge. They believe in retribution, They believe in eye

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Speaker 3: for an eye.

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Speaker 6: At fifteen years old, when you were sending it in

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Speaker 6: front of the judge, not really understanding what's happening in

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Speaker 6: your sentence. In the doc, you talk about looking over

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Speaker 6: to your attorney and being like, so when am I

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Speaker 6: going home?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 6: Right, at that moment, as a kid, what did you

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Speaker 6: need outside of just being locked away behind bars? Like

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Speaker 6: what could they have given you that would have actually,

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Speaker 6: like in that moment, help to reform.

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Speaker 3: Do you mean, like after I've committed murder, Like what

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Speaker 3: to offer a kid?

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Speaker 6: Yeah? Like, what what should be the you know, the

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Speaker 6: rehabilitation of a person that is fifteen years old, that

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Speaker 6: murders a person.

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Speaker 3: I don't know what it should be. I can tell

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Speaker 3: you what I did. What helped me was like just

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Speaker 3: having safe places to talk about it. So I didn't

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Speaker 3: to talk about what I had done. I don't think

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Speaker 3: I needed to necessarily be locked away once I committed murder.

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Speaker 5: I knew it was foul. I felt the seriousness of it.

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Speaker 5: It wasn't like I was.

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Speaker 3: I wasn't celebrated by my homies, So I knew that

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Speaker 3: this was not the move to make. But I needed

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Speaker 3: to understand why, and I didn't get that opportunity in court.

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Speaker 3: They don't give you an opportunity to understand why you

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Speaker 3: are in this moment. How serious it is that that

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Speaker 3: you have taken a life and there's no plan to

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Speaker 3: help you mature through it and process it.

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Speaker 6: You know, you said you weren't celebrated. You also talk

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Speaker 6: a lot about how you thought, like you know, this

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Speaker 6: is kind of like a song like we talked about it.

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Speaker 3: In the songs the song is over.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, so you had an idea of what you thought

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Speaker 6: committing a crime would be like, and then you actually

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Speaker 6: found yourself committing Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean that's true for a lot of my homies.

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Speaker 3: We listen to music and this is no, this is

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Speaker 3: no like condemnation on like hip hop and the music

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Speaker 3: we grow up on. I think it's just true that

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Speaker 3: when I listen to music as a kid, when I

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Speaker 3: watch films as a kid, and I saw violence, it

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Speaker 3: didn't seem you know, the film cuts off and then

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Speaker 3: I see the nigga on the red carpet. Excuse me,

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Speaker 3: I see you on the red carpet, like it's regular.

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Speaker 3: You don't really understand that that person in that story

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Speaker 3: didn't come back in real life.

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Speaker 5: And so as a kid, I thought, you know, in two.

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Speaker 3: Thousand and three, two thousand and four, I was listening

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Speaker 3: to get Richard, I trying, and like that was the

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Speaker 3: epitome of being against And so once I realized after

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Speaker 3: you know, as a kid, it's not it ain't you know,

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Speaker 3: just a song. It's like when you go back to

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Speaker 3: your homies, they gonna look at you and they gonna

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Speaker 3: be scared of They gonna look at you and they

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Speaker 3: gonna have real fear, Like what did you just do?

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Speaker 5: The homies ask me what you just do?

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Speaker 7: Fool?

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Speaker 5: What did you do? Like, why did you do that?

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Speaker 5: The homie?

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Speaker 3: Everybody I know who had a murder in prison, like

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Speaker 3: they none of them got dapped up when they.

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Speaker 5: Homies found out.

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Speaker 3: Everybody got what they might talk about it and and

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Speaker 3: even like they tell they tell war stories, sure, but

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Speaker 3: it's like not not after it happened. I don't know

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Speaker 3: nobody who got dapped up directly after, like, oh we

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Speaker 3: did that, Let's go. Them niggas is in that car, quiet, smoking,

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Speaker 3: drinking them niggas is seriously quiet. It ain't no game,

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Speaker 3: Like that's That's what I came to realize that, you know,

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Speaker 3: you take a life.

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Speaker 5: It ain't it ain't.

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Speaker 3: It ain't fun, it's not it's not honorable to me,

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Speaker 3: especially in the context of just regular street like.

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Speaker 4: Ship contesting and Richie ill y'all can make with James.

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Speaker 4: The album tell the story.

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Speaker 8: So what what Adya didn't share was that he wrote

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Speaker 8: the music that's in the film in solitary confinement after

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Speaker 8: he got out of solitary. He transferred to the prison

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Speaker 8: where Richie was at and that's how they met. He

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Speaker 8: could talk about how they collaborated more on the music.

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Speaker 8: But I met the both of them when I was

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Speaker 8: filming a documentary for CNN. I used to work at CNN,

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Speaker 8: and the last project I did for them was a

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Speaker 8: feature called the Feminists on Cell Black Wife, and it

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Speaker 8: was about a group that Richie had co founded in

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Speaker 8: prison and was leading for his fellow incarcerated men with

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Speaker 8: they're reading feminist literature like Belle Hooks and you know,

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Speaker 8: learning about patriarchy and how it shows up in their

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Speaker 8: lives and unlearning it. So Richie was leading that group

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Speaker 8: and eighty eight was a participant and a co facilitator

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Speaker 8: of that group. And that was the first time that

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Speaker 8: I heard a little bit of eighty eight story. And

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Speaker 8: it was the last day of filming that documentary had

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Speaker 8: nothing to do with the group, but the two of

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Speaker 8: them were in the prison gym and it was Richie's

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Speaker 8: last day at the prison. He was about to be

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Speaker 8: transferred to finish his sentence somewhere else, and they had

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Speaker 8: the prison rental keyboard, and Richie had the keyboard on

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Speaker 8: a trash Can and eighty eight was singing and rapping

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Speaker 8: some of those songs that he wrote in solitary, and

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Speaker 8: there was a group of the guys gathered around and

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Speaker 8: like they knew all the lyrics, so you could tell

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Speaker 8: like this is you know, something that they've been sharing.

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Speaker 8: And I was just struck by, like how powerful the

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Speaker 8: music was, how much storytelling there was in eighty eight lyrics,

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Speaker 8: But I didn't know the context of you know, his

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Speaker 8: story and the relationship between that and the music and

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Speaker 8: how he came to the whole and writing that music

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Speaker 8: in the whole. Fast forward a year after that film

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Speaker 8: came out, they both approached me about, you know, would

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Speaker 8: you want to work on a visual album using eighty

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Speaker 8: eight's music? You know you heard some of it. I

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Speaker 8: was like, some me what you got, and I once

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Speaker 8: I like listen to the recordings and really like, over

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Speaker 8: the course of our development, got to know more about

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Speaker 8: how eighty eight came to the whole and then writing

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Speaker 8: the music there, and then what they were able to

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Speaker 8: do inside producing a whole album. I knew that we

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Speaker 8: had something really special that could really be a testimony,

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Speaker 8: like eighty eight story is a testimony, and the music

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Speaker 8: is so impactful in being able to like hold the

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Speaker 8: narrative and tell his story. So we started collaborating from

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Speaker 8: there and really like evolved our relationship from this like

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Speaker 8: kind of more traditional space of like journalistic. I was

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Speaker 8: the filmmaker, they were the film participants to like co

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Speaker 8: collaborators on this project, and it was a true collaboration,

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Speaker 8: like eighty eight was onside the whole time. We were

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Speaker 8: eight months into the edit when he was released, and

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Speaker 8: we managed to figure out how to collaborate across the

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Speaker 8: prison walls through phone calls, through letters, you know, fifteen

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Speaker 8: minute phone calls at a time. That's how we met.

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Speaker 2: I got a two paul question for you, eighty eight.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna ask Richie how he met, because I know

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Speaker 1: you asked both from Richie and.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, che.

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Speaker 7: I had met eighty eight while I was in prison.

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Speaker 7: I had just released an album from prison, so everybody

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Speaker 7: at the prison kind of knew me as a producer.

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Speaker 7: So in eighty eight got to the yard, the people

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Speaker 7: who knew him from other prisons were like, you got

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Speaker 7: to meet eighty eight.

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Speaker 2: You got to meet eighty eight, And you know, I.

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Speaker 7: Wasn't a lot of everybody in prison think they can

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Speaker 7: rap just like everybody on the streets.

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Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 5: I was.

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Speaker 7: I wasn't like in a rush to meet him necessarily.

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Speaker 2: I was like, okay, But.

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Speaker 7: When I did meet him. We have a homie named

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Speaker 7: Taleb who was trying to put together a poetry book.

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Speaker 7: So he was bringing all these artists together. And we

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Speaker 7: had met in the in the law library and I

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Speaker 7: heard him rap and sing, and I was blown away. Honestly,

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Speaker 7: he could both rap and sing very well, which a

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Speaker 7: lot of people can't do. Usually they do one well

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Speaker 7: and then the other they kind of do for fun.

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Speaker 7: And the story he was telling and the position he

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Speaker 7: had on it, it's not an easy thing to make

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Speaker 7: music that doesn't necessarily glorify or judge the streets. And

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Speaker 7: I was like, Yo, let's let's let's make this album.

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Speaker 1: You had only equipment in jail. You were able to

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Speaker 1: have the equipment in jail.

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Speaker 7: Nah, we broke the rules. The way that we made

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Speaker 7: the album was against the rules. Well, yell out now,

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Speaker 7: but I can't tell you because it's people in who

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Speaker 7: still make music that way. But yeah, the way we

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Speaker 7: made this album in prison was completely against the rules.

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Speaker 7: The prison was against it in every way. They ran

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Speaker 7: up in my cell. They threatened to send me to

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Speaker 7: the hole for making music, and.

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Speaker 5: But it was like they denied me at for making music. Really,

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Speaker 5: I was able to be.

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Speaker 3: A part of a collaboration that Richie was EPN and

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Speaker 3: it featured incarcerated artists and free artists. And when I

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Speaker 3: got to board, they named that It's like a reason

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Speaker 3: why I was in danger to society is that you

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Speaker 3: make music.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, it's important to point out he had life. He

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Speaker 7: wasn't sentenced to eighteen years. He was sentenced to forty

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Speaker 7: years to double life. So you know, we didn't know

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Speaker 7: when eighty eight was coming home. We knew spiritually he

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Speaker 7: was coming home, but we didn't know when he was

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Speaker 7: coming home. So when we finished the album, we were like,

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Speaker 7: you know, typically you finish, you do an album, then

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Speaker 7: you tore it, and we didn't have that opportunity with him.

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Speaker 7: So we're like, let's do a visual album, and that's

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Speaker 7: kind of how the idea began. Then we approached contestant.

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Speaker 7: She built it out to an actual film.

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Speaker 1: One other question, is it true that you can't profit

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Speaker 1: off of a crime that was done?

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Speaker 2: Is that true?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, So in California, the way that the law is

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Speaker 7: written is that basically you can't take if you're incarcerated

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Speaker 7: in California, you can't talk about your crime in a

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Speaker 7: way that makes you money. So you can't write a

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Speaker 7: book about it and make money. You can't make music

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Speaker 7: about it or a film or anything and make money.

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Speaker 7: All of that typically has to go to the people

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Speaker 7: who are impacted by about the crime. And eighty eight's

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Speaker 7: case is unique in that he didn't. The album in

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Speaker 7: the film is not about the fact that he harmed somebody,

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Speaker 7: but rather that he had committed harm and he had

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Speaker 7: been harmed, that his brother was murdered. So, but we

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Speaker 7: also didn't release it until you got out.

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Speaker 4: During your time in solitary of five in eighty eight,

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Speaker 4: like you turned music into a lifeline, right, Like what

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Speaker 4: was the moment you realized music was an escape for you?

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Speaker 4: And I know that probably what kept you saying in

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Speaker 4: the whole.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, as soon as I got in and when I

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Speaker 3: as soon as I got locked up, I knew I

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Speaker 3: grew up with music. I grew up in a church,

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Speaker 3: I grew up singing, I grew up rapping. I started

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Speaker 3: like writing in about the seventh grade. So when I

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Speaker 3: got locked up, you don't know what the hell to do.

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Speaker 3: When you're a kid just in a box kind of

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Speaker 3: you're just sitting there thinking, you're listening different sounds, and

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Speaker 3: suddenly next to me, the cell next to me is

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Speaker 3: the homie we calling Johnny West, Jonathan Marquez. He beating

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Speaker 3: on a bed and he rapping, but he rapping radio songs,

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Speaker 3: some of his you know, he was rapping some of

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Speaker 3: his stuff, but mostly he was just rapping songs that.

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Speaker 5: We all knew. And so I was like, hey, yo,

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Speaker 5: I yelled through the.

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Speaker 3: Vent, like yo, I could I could rap too, Like

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Speaker 3: when we come out, we're gonna rap. We get to

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Speaker 3: the day room, he beat on the table and when

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Speaker 3: I perform, like these little chicken shit ass excuse my language,

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Speaker 3: these little like you know, raps I wrote in this cell.

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Speaker 3: The the you know, the kids is kind of like yo,

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Speaker 3: you are, and it's it's like changing the environment. So

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Speaker 3: when I when I realized, like, oh, I could impact

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Speaker 3: people around me just by you know, occupying our time,

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Speaker 3: They not like annoyed trying to get away from me.

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Speaker 5: They like spit that song.

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Speaker 3: I started to do it more and then I shared

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Speaker 3: it with my father, who is an elder in the

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Speaker 3: church and doesn't listen to hip hop, and he's just like, well,

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Speaker 3: you know, son, music brings people joy. So if you

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Speaker 3: share your gift with them and become their joy, they

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Speaker 3: will protect their joy. And so share your gift with

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Speaker 3: people and you'll see that.

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Speaker 2: Is that the moment you realize that music can also

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Speaker 2: be your voice?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean, I've always known music was a medium

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Speaker 3: to like express myself and use my voice. It was

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Speaker 3: gonna come in some oratory fashion for me, my dad

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Speaker 3: being a pastor, my mom being a singer. I knew

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Speaker 3: like the power of my voice. I just didn't know

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Speaker 3: the significance of it. Sometimes I still don't. But I

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Speaker 3: didn't know that it could be meaningful to write what's

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Speaker 3: happening in my life, to be meaningful that people would

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Speaker 3: actually value it and care about it until I started

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Speaker 3: to see the impact I was having on.

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Speaker 4: The yard contested this footage in the doc that shows

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Speaker 4: the time when eighty and his family was still fighting

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Speaker 4: for him to get out of prison. What made you

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Speaker 4: see the value in his story before knowing he'd be

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Speaker 4: freeding it?

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Speaker 8: M The value to me was the music itself, and

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Speaker 8: you know, I think we can we can share a

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Speaker 8: little bit. I hope folks go watch the film on Netflix.

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Speaker 8: But the whole story is leading up to the moment

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Speaker 8: where eighty eight realizes that he's incarcerated with the person

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Speaker 8: who killed his brother. Knowing that and what happened after that,

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Speaker 8: maybe that's the part I won't say, well, but that

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Speaker 8: there was like so much power for healing and transformation

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Speaker 8: if people heard this story to understand that, you know

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Speaker 8: what we were talking about in terms of like our

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Speaker 8: culture's obsession and reliance on retribution and punishment and revenge,

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Speaker 8: like we can choose something else, and our interpersonal relationships

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Speaker 8: and systemically, So that's what drew me to it. But no,

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Speaker 8: we had no idea that eighty eight would have the

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Speaker 8: opportunities that he had to come home. Like Richie said,

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Speaker 8: he had forty years to life plus life, and we

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Speaker 8: kind of structured the whole narrative arc of the story

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Speaker 8: around spiritual freedom and like internal healing and freedom, and

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Speaker 8: that's you know, each music video treatment kind of builds

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Speaker 8: on that healing the younger self. We didn't know that

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Speaker 8: we would have the ending that we would have in

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Speaker 8: the film. When we started and once those opportunities started

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Speaker 8: picking up, so we're following, you know, his family going

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Speaker 8: to court. What's condensed down in the film was two

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Speaker 8: and a half years of going to court and then

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Speaker 8: commutation from the governor. We had to follow it in

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Speaker 8: real time because it was so it was relevant to

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Speaker 8: the story. But it really was never a film about

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Speaker 8: because I think there's a lot of films about incarceration

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Speaker 8: where it's centered on does the person get to come

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Speaker 8: home and do we all get to celebrate at the

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Speaker 8: end if they come home. We wanted to resist that

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Speaker 8: because we really wanted it to feel like everyone watching

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Speaker 8: this how to entry point into their own healing. So

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Speaker 8: to make it about the spiritual journey was more satisfying

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Speaker 8: for me creatively and I think for all of us spiritually.

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Speaker 2: But then, you know, we got.

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Speaker 3: The legal reason why I got home is irrelevant m hm,

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Speaker 3: because it's not legality that's gonna get us free, for

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Speaker 3: the incarcerated and for us as a people.

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Speaker 2: I like, who you're going with this?

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Speaker 5: Like, so.

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Speaker 3: What what I'm saying is like, we we participate in

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Speaker 3: this system, we vote, we pay our taxes, we do

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Speaker 3: the thing, and it's not working. It's not working for nobody,

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Speaker 3: So it's it's it's working for the people who set

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Speaker 3: it up.

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Speaker 5: That's true.

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Speaker 3: It's working for for you know some, but it's for

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Speaker 3: for us.

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Speaker 2: Is working for people who was designed to work for right.

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Speaker 3: For us, it's a different story. And so it my

402
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Speaker 3: life to tell me it ain't gonna be that that

403
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Speaker 3: get me free.

404
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Speaker 2: No, I agree with that.

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Speaker 4: I've been I've been running that thought in my mind lately,

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Speaker 4: like I think that we're just past the point of

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Speaker 4: any political solutions.

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Speaker 5: No, you know, we need freedom, freedom now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: I was gonna ask, you know, about to say something.

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Speaker 7: I was just gonna quickly say, it's it's if you

412
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Speaker 7: think about it, like, it's kind of silly to even

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Speaker 7: believe that a system that was also set up by

414
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Speaker 7: other flawed human beings is perfect and not just by

415
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Speaker 7: following the rules or voting or just like following the

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Speaker 7: system that someone else set up, that that's all that's needed.

417
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Speaker 7: And when our problems are so great, like actually, I

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Speaker 7: think it calls upon us to say, okay, we can

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Speaker 7: look at how this system is an improvement from you know,

420
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Speaker 7: the feudal system and kings and queens and surfs, and Okay,

421
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Speaker 7: we've improved from there, and there is much more improvement

422
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Speaker 7: that needs to be done if we're going to live

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Speaker 7: in integrity with each other and the earth.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to ask, you know, it's hard not to

425
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Speaker 1: talk about this because you really want people to see it.

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Speaker 1: You want people to see the ins and outs of

427
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Speaker 1: this documentary. But I do want to ask about forgiveness.

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Speaker 2: Right.

429
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Speaker 1: I was talking to Lauren earlier and she was like,

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Speaker 1: certain things I just can't forgive. Right, She was like,

431
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Speaker 1: I can't, Like you know, my family can and I can't.

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Speaker 1: And I think Charlamagne knows me. There's certain things I

433
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Speaker 1: ain't forgiven. It's like, it's just is what it is.

434
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Speaker 1: It's just how did you find I would say, I

435
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Speaker 1: don't even want to say the courage, But how did

436
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Speaker 1: you break down and be able to forgive somebody, especially

437
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Speaker 1: the person that you know killed your brother? How like

438
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Speaker 1: when did that happen? Was it immediately? Did it take

439
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Speaker 1: some time? Was it talk to me your dad who

440
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Speaker 1: was a pastor? When it?

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Speaker 5: When I met him, I had to make a decision.

442
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 5: It is not a superpower.

443
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 3: It is not an impossibility to to you know, all

444
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,479
Speaker 3: due respect to the things you say you can't forgive.

445
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 2: I'm just not there yet.

446
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,200
Speaker 1: I'll get there one day. I'm just not there yet.

447
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,359
Speaker 3: But truly it's a matter of choosing it. It's a

448
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 3: matter of saying to me, this is how I define

449
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 3: forgiveness for myself in that moment.

450
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:09,480
Speaker 5: You kill my brother? Right, how you get that back?

451
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 5: How he gone? Can't gone?

452
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 2: Do?

453
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:17,640
Speaker 5: What do you owe me now?

454
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 3: Because that's what we're talking about in retribution and in

455
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 3: a retaliatory like system. It's like, now you owe me?

456
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,960
Speaker 3: So this man Jay killed my brother, Now you owe me?

457
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:30,960
Speaker 3: What do you owe me? You owe me my brother?

458
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,360
Speaker 3: What's the value of my brother's life? It ain't even yours.

459
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,240
Speaker 3: It ain't even your life. For real, your life is

460
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 3: value differently than my brother. So I can't just take

461
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 3: your life. So now I know you can't pay me back.

462
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:44,840
Speaker 3: So what I'm gonna do?

463
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 5: Be mad my whole life.

464
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,119
Speaker 3: I know you can't give it back. I know you can't.

465
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 3: That's first for forgiveness. I know you can't pay that debt.

466
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,879
Speaker 3: So forgiveness to me is releasing within myself what I

467
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,919
Speaker 3: think you owe me because you hurt me. It's just

468
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,400
Speaker 3: letting go this idea that you going to somehow give

469
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 3: it back or you're gonna somehow realize that you owe it.

470
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,360
Speaker 3: It has nothing to do with you. It has everything

471
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,719
Speaker 3: to do with me letting go of what it is.

472
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,159
Speaker 3: I think you owe me because you did me sour

473
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 3: right now, add to that, I did somebody file. I

474
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:21,880
Speaker 3: did a number of somebody's file throughout my life. And

475
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 3: I am not like, that's not my legacy that I

476
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 3: want to leave. It's not something that I want to

477
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 3: be like. I want to be known for hurting people.

478
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:36,360
Speaker 3: Nobody wants to be known for hurting people. And when

479
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,160
Speaker 3: you hurt someone as seriously as I have, and you

480
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 3: you want to be accountable for it, then you gotta

481
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 3: look at all the parts of your life.

482
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,400
Speaker 1: But you were accountable. If that individual wasn't accountable.

483
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,160
Speaker 3: No, no, no, if he wasn't accountable, it don't make no difference.

484
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 5: Are you accountable? Yeah?

485
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 4: Question, don't you got to give? You would have to

486
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 4: give the person who killed your brother the same grace

487
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 4: you would want the people the family that you know

488
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:06,959
Speaker 4: you give you.

489
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 3: Right, that's true, and and I think that was clear

490
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 3: for me.

491
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 5: But I do not think that that.

492
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 3: Is a requirement for forgiveness that you have to do

493
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 3: an equal harm in order to forgive somebody who has

494
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 3: harmed to you. Because the truth is we all commit

495
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 3: harm daily in some form or another. And I think

496
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:33,400
Speaker 3: when for me to forgive, I knew I wanted it

497
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,879
Speaker 3: in my life. I was I was trying to be

498
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 3: as accountable as I could be growing up in prison.

499
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 3: But I knew I wanted forgiveness more than I wanted anything,

500
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 3: because forgiveness symbolized being restored back to my community. It

501
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 3: symbolized me being restored back to my value that my

502
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 3: grandmother sees when she looked at me.

503
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 5: You know.

504
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,639
Speaker 3: But I know, the more and more I become accountable,

505
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 3: it's not Forgiveness isn't something I can ask for. It's

506
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 3: not even I just took everything, or I took a

507
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 3: lot from you and now I'm gonna ask you to

508
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 3: give me something else, like give me grace. That's not

509
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 3: something I feel willing to ask for. However, what I

510
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 3: can do is plant the seed in the universe. I

511
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,439
Speaker 3: can plant the seed in my daily walk and in

512
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 3: the way I live, and maybe it'll come back. Maybe

513
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 3: it'll come to somebody who needs it.

514
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 5: In my life.

515
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 3: But either way, a friend of mine, Chris Wachnick, used

516
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 3: to always say, so is seed from your greatest need,

517
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 3: what you need the most, go give it to somebody.

518
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 2: Man.

519
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 4: I just want to stay here for one second of

520
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 4: eighty eight because it's such an interesting space. How have

521
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 4: you navigated the tension between accountability and self forgiveness?

522
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 5: Again?

523
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 3: Like?

524
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 5: What do I owe? Can I pay back what I owe?

525
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 3: Even when I think I owe to myself or I

526
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 3: you know, I'm faithful in God that he will forgive me,

527
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 3: and that He has forgiven me and to me, that's enough.

528
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 3: All I have to do is be honest about where

529
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,880
Speaker 3: I was at when, when, when I did whatever I did,

530
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 3: Where I'm at when I do whatever I do. Being

531
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 3: accountable is key, being having integrity to that accountability is

532
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 3: the goal. I'm not trying to be like a saint

533
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 3: and say like everybody should forgive, and I have the

534
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 3: story on how to learn how to forgive. This is

535
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 3: a This is like an opportunity for people to discuss

536
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 3: if forgiveness is necessary. Do we want a society of

537
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 3: forgiveness or do we want one of revenge? So far

538
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 3: we have chosen revenge. Where has it gotten us. My

539
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 3: dad stood up in court and looked at looked at

540
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 3: Jay gets sentenced, and he was like, this does nothing

541
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 3: for me, this does It did absolutely nothing for my

542
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 3: family that that young man got life in prison, nothing nothing.

543
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 3: They son was still going and they other stunts still

544
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 3: had forty years to life plus life. What could you

545
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 3: give my parents besides an opportunity for healing and reconciliation.

546
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 6: You know, what is the journey been like for your

547
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 6: parents now that the documentary is out and they can

548
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 6: kind of look back and watch it. I know in

549
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 6: the documentary your mom talked about kind of like the

550
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 6: guilt that they felt when everything first happened with you

551
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 6: and ye felt like you were crying out and things

552
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 6: of that nature. Like, what is it like now for

553
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 6: them being able to see it in a documentary?

554
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 3: I think I think they're proud that the three of

555
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 3: us have found a way to tell our family story

556
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,400
Speaker 3: in a way that's like building something and adding value.

557
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 3: I guess when you go through it, it can sometimes

558
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 3: feel like what is all this for?

559
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 5: Why am I? Why am I? Especially for my.

560
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 3: Parents, who, in my opinion, have done all they could

561
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 3: do for their children for their lives providing a good

562
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 3: life for us, and they suffered great loss. So I

563
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 3: think now when they see it in the in the film,

564
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 3: they're incredibly proud of us in the way that we've

565
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:06,160
Speaker 3: been able to like share.

566
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 2: This story answer that.

567
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:08,160
Speaker 7: Yeah.

568
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 8: I actually just talked to eighty eight's mom yesterday and

569
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:16,159
Speaker 8: she was encouraging me that this film is doing what

570
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,439
Speaker 8: we had hoped it would do out in the world,

571
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 8: like it is healing people. It's allowing people to feel

572
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 8: seen and heard, that what they went through mattered, and

573
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 8: I know that that was their experience. You know, at first,

574
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 8: they were apprehensive and they were just kind of like

575
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 8: listening to their son be like, oh, we're making this film,

576
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,120
Speaker 8: but you know, he's locked up, and me and Richie

577
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,439
Speaker 8: are on the outside coming to their house and starting

578
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 8: to do the interview process and spend all this time

579
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 8: with them, and I think they were apprehensive at first,

580
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 8: but they came to realize, I think pretty quickly that

581
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 8: their story mattered, and that their story would reflect a

582
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 8: lot of family stories and help a lot of people heal.

583
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 4: There's a scene in a dock when actors are portraying

584
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 4: james family and the family of the young men that

585
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 4: James killed in the courthouse.

586
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 2: They're both played by the same actors. Was that intentional?

587
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 8: It was intentional that that choice was really about that

588
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 8: family standing in for all families, no matter what side

589
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 8: of harm they find themselves on, because you know, eighty

590
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 8: eighth story is not, unfortunately unique, and that you can

591
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 8: experience harm and cause harm in the same turn. And

592
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 8: so to choose just one set of actors and to

593
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 8: place them in all of the different ways that we

594
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 8: place them, they actually they work as multiple families throughout

595
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 8: the course of the film. And that was that was

596
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 8: eighty eighth's idea.

597
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 6: What do you hope that this film does for young

598
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 6: men or women that are in it right now, just

599
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 6: trying to survive the way that they know how best,

600
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 6: Like in the streets, like they trying to just day

601
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 6: by day all they know is survival, trying to get through.

602
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 6: What do you if they get a chance to watch this, like,

603
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 6: what do you want them to stop in their and

604
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 6: think at the end of the documentary?

605
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 5: I think I would want them to.

606
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 3: I hope I hope that they can see the process that.

607
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 5: It took to heal.

608
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 3: It took community, it took Richie, it took contessa. It

609
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 3: took my homies in prison that I was around to

610
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 3: hold me accountable to who I said I wanted to be.

611
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 3: So my advice to them as they watched this film

612
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 3: is to think about that and think about who in

613
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 3: your life is gonna hold you accountable to who you

614
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 3: say you want to be, Not you know, and not

615
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 3: in a way that's gonna shame you or guilt you

616
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 3: back into doing the right thing or being correct, but

617
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 3: truly gonna be like I remember you said you wanted

618
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 3: to do X, like how is that going? And checking

619
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 3: in with them, and to surround yourself with people who

620
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,719
Speaker 3: will do that, who will hold you accountable to who

621
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 3: you say you want to be.

622
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 5: That's the way. That's the way out of trying to survive.

623
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 2: Richie. Why do you put all your the letters lower

624
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 2: case in your name?

625
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's on purpose.

626
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 2: I did that.

627
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 7: I was inspired by Belle Hooks to do that. I

628
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 7: think it's like English is such a ego centric kind

629
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 7: of language, and I liked I think Belle Hooks does

630
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 7: it from an anti capitalist space. Dream Hampton does it similarly.

631
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 7: Dream Hampton is one of our EPs and and and

632
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 7: a friend of mine, and I seen she do. Yeah,

633
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 7: very she's a genius. And yeah, so I was just

634
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 7: inspired to to model after people who I feel like

635
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 7: kind of mentored me. And I think it has everything

636
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 7: to do with what this film is about, Like we have.

637
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 2: All committed harm, and.

638
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 7: We have all survived harm, and when we have the

639
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 7: kind of like this film is not saying everybody has

640
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 7: to go forgive that's quote unquote the right thing to do,

641
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 7: as much as it's saying, like, what else is possible

642
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 7: besides revenge? I don't know, It's just it's just a

643
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 7: let it takes our ego out of being the center

644
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 7: of it.

645
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 2: What else is possible other than revenge? Yeah?

646
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 4: I think that that is very hard to explore when

647
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 4: you probably are dealing with a lot of your own

648
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 4: unheal trauma and allowing your own pain and allowing your

649
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 4: own hurt. Like, I think it takes a lot of

650
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 4: a person that's already done some work to even know

651
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 4: what that is.

652
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 2: What is there other than revenge because that's what you

653
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 2: think is naturally automatically.

654
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 7: That's just I think this story is so powerful because it's

655
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 7: just going to the to the capital letter thing. It's

656
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 7: it's just about humility. Like knowing that I committed harm

657
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 7: puts me in a position that when someone harms me,

658
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 7: I'm like, Okay, this doesn't feel good. But this person

659
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 7: is not different than me. I'm not better than them.

660
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 7: I'm not better than nobody. And therefore, how the kind

661
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 7: of the kind of accountability we're talking about in the

662
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 7: film and in our community is not who is wrong

663
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 7: and who needs to be punished. It's what happened and

664
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 7: what needs to change so that I can show up

665
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 7: the way that I want to show up, and when

666
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 7: we have, our people hold us accountable to that because

667
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 7: we need each other.

668
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 2: That's the other thing.

669
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 7: The system has convinced us. We don't need each other.

670
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 7: It's convinced us that as long as you have money,

671
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 7: you don't need nobody. That's what makes the police even

672
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 7: quote unquote necessary to begin with. Is this idea that

673
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 7: we need to be scared with guns to treat.

674
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 2: Each other well.

675
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 7: But when we know we need each other back, when

676
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 7: we when we know we need each other, we don't

677
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 7: need to be scared into treating each other well. And

678
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 7: when we move from that more humble place, it's not

679
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 7: so like you wronged me, and now I need to

680
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 7: wrong you, and I'm the.

681
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 2: Good guy and you're the bad guy.

682
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 7: It's like you wronged me as people, I feel or

683
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 7: rather I feel hurt by you, and I know I

684
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 7: have hurt other people. And what needs to change so

685
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 7: that we're not hurting each other?

686
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 2: Why it's so hard for men to admit that another

687
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 2: man just hurt their feelings?

688
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 7: I think men are even more addicted to this, to

689
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 7: this system. We're like more addicted to the ego based

690
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 7: system because we're like privileged by it. That's why the

691
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 7: people who get the most out of it are the

692
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 7: ones who are the least likely to let go for anything.

693
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 7: You know, if there's a fucked up situation but you

694
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 7: kind of benefit from it, you're probably more likely to

695
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 7: let it keep going on. And this system, this culture

696
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 7: also a key element of it is defensiveness. So it's

697
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 7: like the more addicted to what you are, the more

698
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 7: defensive you are about it. And I think, man, I

699
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 7: don't think it's like in our nature to be like that,

700
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 7: but I think it's how we're raised to be in

701
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 7: this system for sure.

702
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 4: I also think you know when a person forgives, when

703
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 4: the aggressor forgives, right, like the person that can actually

704
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 4: do you harm. It's easy to forgive when you're in

705
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 4: the weaker position, like, okay, I got no choice, but

706
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 4: you give me a beat my ass, right. But when

707
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:49,879
Speaker 4: you are a person that could actually do the harm

708
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 4: and they forgive that to me, that's a different level.

709
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,439
Speaker 7: It's like Gandhi said, we don't choose non violence because

710
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,839
Speaker 7: we're scared. If my followers were scared, I would tell

711
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,879
Speaker 7: them go fight. We choose non violence because we are

712
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 7: choosing non violence.

713
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 2: Check out songs contest you and Dream. Why did y'all?

714
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 4: How did you connect a dream? Because I Dream is

715
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 4: very intentional about what she decided to do. How did

716
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 4: she decide she wanted to be a part of this?

717
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 8: Dream is actually a mentor of Richie's. So you know,

718
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 8: Richie was going to be hot if.

719
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 7: We called her a mentor though.

720
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 3: Friend.

721
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 7: But she has obviously been in this business a lot

722
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 7: longer than I have, and I've learned a lot from her.

723
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 7: From Detroita, No, I'm from La. I met Dream while

724
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 7: I was in prison through Patrese dreaming. Patrice knew each other.

725
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 7: Patrise colors knew each other for a long time, and

726
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 7: then Patrice connected us and we started writing while we

727
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,320
Speaker 7: were in prison, while she was working on the R.

728
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 2: Kelly stuff got you.

729
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 7: Wo yeah, So she came on as an ep as

730
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 7: one of the first people the ep it. She had

731
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 7: saw Contessa's first film The Feminists on sub Block Why

732
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 7: which eighty eight and I are in as well. She

733
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 7: was talking about kind of following our our work doing

734
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 7: integrity work with other men in the and she was

735
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 7: a fan of that film. So when I had approached

736
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 7: her and be like, do you want to support this film.

737
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 2: She was all for it.

738
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 4: I got two more questions. Eighty h you kept your

739
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,959
Speaker 4: original prison recorded vocals.

740
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:12,280
Speaker 5: Right, yeah?

741
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 2: Yeah? Why?

742
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,919
Speaker 3: I mean that was the voice I used. We took

743
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 3: great risk, we risked our freedom to make those recordings,

744
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 3: and that was the album Richie and I wanted to release,

745
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 3: so we thought it was important.

746
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 2: You probably couldn't recreate that rowness.

747
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,959
Speaker 3: Yeah no, no, no, no, no, no, yeah, definitely you can't.

748
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 3: You can't recreate it. It was a moment in time

749
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 3: that was like, you know, really spiritual, really really a

750
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 3: blessed experience for me, one of the few blessed experiences.

751
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 3: And while I was inside to be able to record

752
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 3: that music with Richie, and it just shows.

753
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 7: How incarcerated people are worthwhile us in our early twenties

754
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 7: in prison making music, like the fact that that music

755
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 7: is now on Netflix right and on streamers and on

756
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 7: like vinyl and being her all over the world. I'd

757
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 7: be looking at our stats on the distributor platform and

758
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 7: seeing people are listening to this music in Brazil and

759
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 7: we made it in prison. It's so affirming to me,

760
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 7: to us, but also to other people who are in

761
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 7: prison right now, Like, you can be whoever you want

762
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 7: to be. You don't have to be who they tell

763
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 7: you got to be, whether that they be the prison

764
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 7: system or the streets. You could be who you want

765
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 7: to be, not who they tell you.

766
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 2: And contested what do you want people to take away

767
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:24,280
Speaker 2: from this store.

768
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:30,399
Speaker 8: What Richie said? I mean, I saw like I saw

769
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 8: my brothers when I came into the prison. And I

770
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 8: also grew up in church like eighty eight, and so

771
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,800
Speaker 8: we really connected on like the music, you know, growing

772
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 8: up in the church, listening to gospel music, having that

773
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 8: type of family, and that's why I connected so deeply

774
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 8: to the music because it's it's also so it's hip hop,

775
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 8: but it's so spiritual and I want people to know

776
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 8: that healing is possible.

777
00:37:58,440 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 2: And that.

778
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 8: It can come in different forms. And our film, I

779
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 8: think is an offering in that regard. Like there's multiple lanes,

780
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 8: there's multiple portals, there's multiple entry points into people finding

781
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 8: their healing and and that's why I made the film.

782
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: As a label reached out until they wanted to sign

783
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: you or not as yet a few couple you're thinking

784
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: about signing on independent.

785
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 5: I like being independent right now. It's mine.

786
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 1: To do what you want to do, how you want

787
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: to do it, when you want.

788
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:29,919
Speaker 5: Yeah, but you know I take a call.

789
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 2: Well, there you have it.

790
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 1: Songs from the whole of Documentary Net on Netflix right now.

791
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 1: Definitely check it out. And we appreciate you guys for

792
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 1: James JJ eighty, Jacob's Contested Gales and Richie small R receiving.

793
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:53,359
Speaker 2: Every day breakfast Club you don't finish for y'all done,