WEBVTT - Episode 5: Not Your Everyday P.I.

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<v Speaker 1>This is on the Job, a podcast about finding your

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<v Speaker 1>life's work. On the job, is brought to you by

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<v Speaker 1>Express Employment Professionals. This season, we're bringing you stories of

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<v Speaker 1>folks following their passion to carve their own career path.

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<v Speaker 1>For this episode, we look at a pretty non traditional

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<v Speaker 1>career path, being a private investigator. It's a complicated line

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<v Speaker 1>of work that comes with a lot of assumptions being

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<v Speaker 1>made about it and maybe something a lot of people

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<v Speaker 1>don't feel like they're cut out foreign paper. But sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>doing a job is less about your hard qualifications and

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<v Speaker 1>more about the bigger ideas that drive you. Now that

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<v Speaker 1>you know that we're talking to a real PI today,

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<v Speaker 1>you probably have some idea in your head of what

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<v Speaker 1>that means. So let's get that out of the way. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>so what do people say to you when they hear

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<v Speaker 1>you're a PI. The first thing is that everyone goes, wow,

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<v Speaker 1>that must be exciting. Well, I've been doing this for

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<v Speaker 1>almost a half a century, and I don't think exciting

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<v Speaker 1>is the word that I would use anymore. Maybe at

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<v Speaker 1>one time, but not anymore. This is Kitty Kitty Hailey.

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<v Speaker 1>I am a professional investigator, sometimes called a PI or

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<v Speaker 1>a private investigator, and I am old enough to know better.

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<v Speaker 1>Kitty works and lives in Philadelphia. She got fiery red hair,

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<v Speaker 1>she's put together, kind of looks like she might be

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<v Speaker 1>a kindergarten teacher. You wouldn't look at her and think

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<v Speaker 1>she's a PI, which is also what people say to

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<v Speaker 1>her when they find out what she does. And then

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<v Speaker 1>they start to tell me how they would be a

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<v Speaker 1>good investigator. And they tell me either how they located

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<v Speaker 1>their long lost second cousin or they found their husband cheating,

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<v Speaker 1>and they watch all the cop shows on TV. The

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<v Speaker 1>thing is, Kitty is pretty much the opposite of what

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<v Speaker 1>you'd see on a cop show. She's been an investigator

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<v Speaker 1>in many forms, but currently most of what she does

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<v Speaker 1>is investigate the police in cases where someone is wrongfully

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<v Speaker 1>convicted or an officer abuses their authority. So no, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not a police investigator. All right. So you've done a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of different things in your career, but boiled down,

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<v Speaker 1>what is it that you do. I gather information, period,

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I do. I don't censor it, I don't

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<v Speaker 1>editorialize it. I am a fact finder. However, the facts

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<v Speaker 1>that are find are about some very interesting and unusual situations.

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<v Speaker 1>Right now, Kitty is a criminal investigator, but for a

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<v Speaker 1>while she was what was called a full service investigator,

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<v Speaker 1>which means she did a little bit of everything, domestic people, cheating,

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<v Speaker 1>locating missing people. Now she does civil rights work, investigating

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<v Speaker 1>cases similar to George Floyd's where there's been an incident

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<v Speaker 1>with the police. My other clients are incarcerated and they

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<v Speaker 1>may not be guilty, So it's an interesting mixture of work,

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<v Speaker 1>but primarily I do civil rights and post conviction work.

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<v Speaker 1>While I was asking Kitty questions, I was surprised by

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<v Speaker 1>how much goes into being a PI that you'd never

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<v Speaker 1>know without talking to one. But some of the time,

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<v Speaker 1>just like on TV, Katy ends up in a courtroom

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<v Speaker 1>in front of a jury, presenting the facts and making

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<v Speaker 1>her case. Do you like being in a courtroom? I

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<v Speaker 1>love it. It's the best time because I think we're

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<v Speaker 1>all different people at different times. I'm not pretending, but

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<v Speaker 1>I am performing. I'm performing the Kitty Hailey who is

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<v Speaker 1>the investigator. I mean sometimes I'm a grandmom, and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I sit on the floor with a couple of grandkids

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<v Speaker 1>and I play games and I make them cookies and

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<v Speaker 1>do all the things that grandmas do, but when I'm

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<v Speaker 1>in a courtroom, have control. Long before she was dominating

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<v Speaker 1>courtrooms and swaying juries, young Kitty Haley grew up a

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<v Speaker 1>pretty straight laced, brainy kid. I was a young geek.

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<v Speaker 1>I read a lot of books. I mean, Nancy Drew

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<v Speaker 1>was my best friend for the longest time, so maybe

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<v Speaker 1>that was part of it. I don't know. She had

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<v Speaker 1>a brother and a sister. They were a tight family unit,

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<v Speaker 1>had dinner every night with mom and dad. We're Jewish,

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<v Speaker 1>so we went to synagogue every Friday night together. I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think any of us ever got in trouble once

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<v Speaker 1>in our entire lives. Even so, growing up in a

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<v Speaker 1>non Jewish neighborhood, she saw a lot of prejudice against

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<v Speaker 1>her family. There were places she couldn't go, things she

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<v Speaker 1>couldn't do. So I knew what it was like to

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<v Speaker 1>be an outcast. I knew what it was like to

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<v Speaker 1>have in equity. And I think if I had not

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<v Speaker 1>been an investigator, I probably would have ended up in

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<v Speaker 1>some sort of social work at some point in time.

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<v Speaker 1>Because the inequities of the world are so great and

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<v Speaker 1>I can't stand a look at them. I need to

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<v Speaker 1>be a part of the solution, not accorded the problem.

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<v Speaker 1>In high school, she was great at art, so she

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<v Speaker 1>went to school for it, and afterwards she got a

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<v Speaker 1>job teaching art at a high school in Camden, New Jersey.

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<v Speaker 1>It was a predominantly black school during the Civil Rights movement,

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<v Speaker 1>and Kitty was asked to leave the school system after

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<v Speaker 1>being blamed for causing an uprising against the school system.

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't I didn't stop it. Apparently, she just helped

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<v Speaker 1>the students with their manifesto. Yeah. I think that was

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<v Speaker 1>my problem, help them to put their manifesto together. And

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<v Speaker 1>the problem was that I did during school time, during

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<v Speaker 1>school copy machines, So yeah, I shouldn't have done that maybe. Unsurprisingly,

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<v Speaker 1>this is when she had encountered with a police captain

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<v Speaker 1>who ended up becoming her husband. He was branching off

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<v Speaker 1>from the force to start his own PI firm, and

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<v Speaker 1>she started to help out while she got another teaching

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<v Speaker 1>job at Rutgers. And I worked as a teacher counselor

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<v Speaker 1>for a couple of years, doing investigative work part time,

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<v Speaker 1>and then eventually just transitioned over because it's what I

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<v Speaker 1>really wanted to do. So twenty four years old. Kitty

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<v Speaker 1>Haley was a PI, but it definitely wasn't glamorous. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>we have a small agency initially, and it was really

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<v Speaker 1>it was really difficult because it was just my husband enough.

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<v Speaker 1>They took whatever work they could get, which was mostly

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<v Speaker 1>domestic work. People cheating, abuse cases, custody issues, families stealing

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<v Speaker 1>from each other, messy stuff. My kids went to college

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<v Speaker 1>because I did domestic work. I mean, God, bless cheating people.

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<v Speaker 1>It was wonderful. Infidelity pays the bills. Yeah, absolutely, the

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<v Speaker 1>stereotypical stuff people think of when you're a PI, sneaking around,

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<v Speaker 1>following people, looking in their windows to see when the

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<v Speaker 1>light goes on or off. Yeah, I've done all that stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>I sat on surveillance for days and nights and weeks,

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<v Speaker 1>and I used to bring my kids on surveillance when

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<v Speaker 1>they were little. Sometimes they'd be so busy that her

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<v Speaker 1>husband would be working right through bedtime when Kitty had

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<v Speaker 1>to go do her surveillance work. So she'd throw the

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<v Speaker 1>kids in the back of the car with a blanket

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<v Speaker 1>and I'd go out. We'd all stood on surveillance together.

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<v Speaker 1>I read them books, I tell them stories as we

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<v Speaker 1>were driving. You hook them in with seatbelts and give

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<v Speaker 1>them things to play with, and every once in a

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<v Speaker 1>while I go, Okay, guys, hang on, mama's gotta go.

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<v Speaker 1>You did what we had to do. We'll get back

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<v Speaker 1>to our story in a second. First, a word from

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<v Speaker 1>Express Employment Professionals. A strong work ethic takes pride in

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<v Speaker 1>a job well done. This is you. But to get

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<v Speaker 1>an honest day's work, you need a callback. You need

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<v Speaker 1>a job. Express Employment Professionals can help. We'll connect you

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<v Speaker 1>to the right company. We're committed to your success and

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<v Speaker 1>never charge a fee to find you a job. Express

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<v Speaker 1>Nose Jobs. Get to know Express find your location at

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<v Speaker 1>expresspros dot com or on the Express Jobs app. Now

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<v Speaker 1>back to on the job. Despite the life of starting

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<v Speaker 1>a PI firm, Kitty was hooked. I loved the excitement,

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<v Speaker 1>the adventure and it was creative in its own way. Also,

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<v Speaker 1>having a background in art made me capable of observing

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<v Speaker 1>things that other people didn't see. She picked up on details.

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<v Speaker 1>She could recreate rooms that she was invited into during

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<v Speaker 1>theft investigations, and a client might be able to point

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<v Speaker 1>out the thing that they said was stolen from them.

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<v Speaker 1>This is one of the many skills that's helped Kitty

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<v Speaker 1>stay in the game as long as she has. What

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<v Speaker 1>makes someone good at what you do? Wow, I always

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<v Speaker 1>tell people who are interested in my field, they have

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<v Speaker 1>to be able to do several things really well. They

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<v Speaker 1>have to be able to think. You have to be

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<v Speaker 1>able to think and analyze. You have to be able

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<v Speaker 1>to observe and put your own personal prejudices out of

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<v Speaker 1>the way while you're observing what happened or what the

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<v Speaker 1>evidence is. She says. You also have to know a

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<v Speaker 1>lot about the law and how the court system works,

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<v Speaker 1>so that you know what constitutes evidence. Evidence is really

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<v Speaker 1>important because everything you do has to be admissible in

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<v Speaker 1>a court of law or you can't do it. One

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<v Speaker 1>of the most overlook skills, she says, writing You've got

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<v Speaker 1>to be able to put together a good report. If

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<v Speaker 1>you can't write what you did to explain it to

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<v Speaker 1>an attorney, then you might as well never have done

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<v Speaker 1>the work. Basically, you might do seventy hours worth of

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<v Speaker 1>surveillance and finding information, computer research and interviewing people, and

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<v Speaker 1>all you can give to an attorney is a five

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<v Speaker 1>page report. So it's like a master class in essay writing.

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<v Speaker 1>Sounds like there's a lot of skills they don't tell

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<v Speaker 1>you about on Law and Order SVU. Yes, so you

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<v Speaker 1>have to be able to deal with people, communicate well,

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<v Speaker 1>and know how to build so that you can keep

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<v Speaker 1>your job. That's the whole thing. It's a business. People

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<v Speaker 1>forget that. They think this is oh, this is great.

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<v Speaker 1>But if you're working for yourself, you've got to do

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<v Speaker 1>all of that or good work for somebody else, which

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<v Speaker 1>you can do. Katie says. There are so many respects

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<v Speaker 1>of the work. You can always try it all out

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<v Speaker 1>and figure out what you'd like to specialize in. Especially

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<v Speaker 1>in the age of social media. You could be a techie,

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<v Speaker 1>you could work online investigations. There's a ton of different

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<v Speaker 1>ways to go about it. That's not what I like

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<v Speaker 1>to do. It's not my comfort zone. Put me in

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<v Speaker 1>front of somebody and I will interview them until I

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<v Speaker 1>get every lest bit of information out of them, and

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<v Speaker 1>that I do well. Kitty says, in the beginning, she

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<v Speaker 1>was saying yes to any job that came her way.

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<v Speaker 1>She had to. That can get you in trouble. There

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<v Speaker 1>was a nice couple who came to see us. They

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<v Speaker 1>had just come from a funeral actually, and so they

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<v Speaker 1>were well dressed, and she wanted us to find her

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<v Speaker 1>missing children. The woman's ex husband had taken the kids.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not uncommon in these cases, so Kittie got involved,

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<v Speaker 1>only to later find out that without their nice clothing,

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<v Speaker 1>they were members of the Hell's Angels who were involved

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<v Speaker 1>in a dispute with a rival gang. We were right

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<v Speaker 1>in the middle of it, and I was stupid. I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't know anything about this. It was my first introduction

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<v Speaker 1>to anything criminal. I only learned about it when I

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<v Speaker 1>left their house and four big black SUVs pulled me

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<v Speaker 1>off to the side of the road and four people

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<v Speaker 1>identify themselves as the FBI and wanted to know what

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<v Speaker 1>I was doing in the house. That was not something

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<v Speaker 1>that a twenty four year old should have to go through.

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<v Speaker 1>It was scary. Do they make you second guess? Oh

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<v Speaker 1>my god, like, what am I doing? No? It maybe

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<v Speaker 1>learned to be more careful about who my clients are,

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<v Speaker 1>at least to know what was really expected of me,

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<v Speaker 1>Because my clients right now, some of them are guilty

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<v Speaker 1>as hell. You know some of them are innocent, but

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<v Speaker 1>you don't know until you investigate it. So I need

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<v Speaker 1>to I've learned to investigate my clients as well as

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<v Speaker 1>to investigate what they want me to investigate. Do you

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<v Speaker 1>ever do jobs for people that you kind of don't

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<v Speaker 1>feel comfortable doing. Yeah, but I'm not them. I'm still

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<v Speaker 1>doing my job. So take any case where there's a

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<v Speaker 1>prosecutor and a defendant. Whether she's hired by the defense

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<v Speaker 1>or the prosecution, her job doesn't change. So if there

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<v Speaker 1>was a bullet, we're going to find a bullet. If

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<v Speaker 1>you have a witness who says she saw X Y

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<v Speaker 1>and Z, bolt investigator is going to find x Y

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<v Speaker 1>and Z. The prosecution investigator and the defense investigator are

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<v Speaker 1>both going to find the same information because the facts

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<v Speaker 1>don't change. I'm not supporting a person, I'm finding out facts. Still,

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<v Speaker 1>she knows that what she does has a huge impact

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<v Speaker 1>on people's lives. When I ask if she's okay with that,

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<v Speaker 1>she tells me about a case where a guy called

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<v Speaker 1>Kitty saying he suspected his wife was cheating on him

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<v Speaker 1>every day when he went to work. He wanted her

0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:58.000
<v Speaker 1>to find out. Turns out his wife was with a

0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:01.320
<v Speaker 1>neighbor next door. Kitty had the evidence and testified in

0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:05.040
<v Speaker 1>their court hearing the following morning. I'm in my office

0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:08.080
<v Speaker 1>and I get a phone call and it's the woman

0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:12.400
<v Speaker 1>who I testified against, and she says to me, how

0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:15.360
<v Speaker 1>can you sleep with yourself doing the ugly work that

0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:19.680
<v Speaker 1>you do, spying on people, peering in windows? How do

0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:23.240
<v Speaker 1>you sleep with yourself? And I remember saying to her,

0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:28.120
<v Speaker 1>I don't. I don't sleep with myself. I speak with

0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:31.640
<v Speaker 1>my husband. You out her hand, sleep with somebody else

0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:37.720
<v Speaker 1>who says this. So no, I'm not the people I'm

0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:41.200
<v Speaker 1>working for or against. I'm still me with my own

0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:45.120
<v Speaker 1>ethics and my own morals. But if in the process

0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:49.400
<v Speaker 1>I help somebody make a life decision that will change

0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:51.840
<v Speaker 1>the course of their life, or allow them to make

0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:58.640
<v Speaker 1>an informed decision, then I've done a good job. Kitty

0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:01.160
<v Speaker 1>has a deep respect for the impact her work has,

0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:03.920
<v Speaker 1>good or bad, which is why over the last many

0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:09.079
<v Speaker 1>years she's become a nationally recognized investigative ethicist. She literally

0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:12.440
<v Speaker 1>wrote the book on ethical standards for being an investigator,

0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:15.679
<v Speaker 1>and she tours the country giving lectures on how to

0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.679
<v Speaker 1>do this job in a responsible way. Recently, she was

0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:21.359
<v Speaker 1>doing a session with a pretty elite group of investigators

0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:25.240
<v Speaker 1>and somebody asked me the question, how do you show

0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:29.800
<v Speaker 1>empathy and it just blew me for a loop. And

0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:35.400
<v Speaker 1>I said, I don't I feel it being a PI

0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:38.000
<v Speaker 1>sounds like a cool job, and Kitty says it is.

0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:40.960
<v Speaker 1>But on the flip side, there are times when you

0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:43.360
<v Speaker 1>are talking to a person on the worst day of

0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:45.920
<v Speaker 1>their life, people who have lost a loved one or

0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:49.280
<v Speaker 1>were a victim of a crime, people scared for their life.

0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:52.040
<v Speaker 1>And if you don't appreciate that, then maybe you shouldn't

0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:54.880
<v Speaker 1>be doing this job. You've got to understand that everyone

0:14:54.960 --> 0:15:00.520
<v Speaker 1>has been traumatized in some way, and I'm a to

0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:04.400
<v Speaker 1>their horror and I need to record it. I need

0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:08.160
<v Speaker 1>to be able to elicit the information from them so

0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:10.360
<v Speaker 1>that I can take their statements so that when I

0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:14.840
<v Speaker 1>present it in court it has meaning and gravatas, and

0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:25.400
<v Speaker 1>that comes from respect. Talking with Kitty reminded me of

0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:28.880
<v Speaker 1>something pretty amazing I heard the famous therapist and author

0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:31.680
<v Speaker 1>Esther Perel say on a podcast once when she was

0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:35.600
<v Speaker 1>talking about our relationship to our jobs. She said, next

0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:37.520
<v Speaker 1>time you're at dinner with new friends or at a

0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:40.480
<v Speaker 1>party and you're about to ask the routine question what

0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:43.320
<v Speaker 1>do you do for a living? Instead ask what would

0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:45.680
<v Speaker 1>you do if you weren't doing the job you do now.

0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:51.960
<v Speaker 1>That's always stuck with me because I feel like so

0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:54.480
<v Speaker 1>many of us write off what we can do for

0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:57.400
<v Speaker 1>work because we don't have the education for it, or

0:15:57.440 --> 0:16:00.160
<v Speaker 1>we didn't grow up around it, or we don't look there.

0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:04.040
<v Speaker 1>But sometimes what qualifies you for a job is your

0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:07.320
<v Speaker 1>deepest beliefs, the thing that gets you up in the morning.

0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:10.880
<v Speaker 1>Kitty still looks like a high school art teacher, but

0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:13.560
<v Speaker 1>her desire led her to being one of the most

0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:17.640
<v Speaker 1>respected investigators in her industry. That desire she had as

0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:20.680
<v Speaker 1>a young nerdy outcast to be part of the solution

0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:23.800
<v Speaker 1>rather than the problem. I asked her if she still

0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:28.400
<v Speaker 1>felt that way about her work. Oh, my, every day.

0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:32.520
<v Speaker 1>You know, we work so hard on a case and

0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:35.960
<v Speaker 1>don't always see the end of it. Sometimes all the

0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:41.160
<v Speaker 1>information goes to an attorney and you never know what happened. Wow,

0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:45.680
<v Speaker 1>I didn't even think of that. That's some very delayed satisfaction,

0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:51.320
<v Speaker 1>if any at all. Yeah. Okay, So I worked with

0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:55.560
<v Speaker 1>a gentleman from Philadelphia. I could say his name because

0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:59.000
<v Speaker 1>he is now free. It's jim Dennis. He was wrongfully

0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:04.320
<v Speaker 1>incarcerated almost twenty years ago. Jimmie Dennis is an R

0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:07.160
<v Speaker 1>and B musician in Philadelphia, and when he was twenty one,

0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.760
<v Speaker 1>he was wrongfully convicted of our murder. No physical evidence,

0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:13.680
<v Speaker 1>no weapon, no DNA, and he was put on death row.

0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:18.159
<v Speaker 1>Kitty worked on his case, and eighteen years later I

0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:20.800
<v Speaker 1>was sitting in a coffee shop and I got a

0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:24.280
<v Speaker 1>telephone call and a voice said, missus Kitty, I just

0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:26.600
<v Speaker 1>want to thank you, and I said, who is this?

0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:30.480
<v Speaker 1>He said, this is Jimmy Dennis. I'm on my way

0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:34.600
<v Speaker 1>home from prison. And I said in that coffee shop

0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:44.959
<v Speaker 1>and cried like a baby. It was so wonderful to

0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:48.240
<v Speaker 1>know that work I had done for eighteen years had

0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:52.480
<v Speaker 1>finally resulted in someone going home to a family a

0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:55.359
<v Speaker 1>baby he had never held, a child he had not seen.

0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:58.720
<v Speaker 1>You know, it was somebody whose life was able to

0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:02.320
<v Speaker 1>be not put hole again, but at least she was

0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:05.639
<v Speaker 1>able to live a life outside of the four walls

0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:08.280
<v Speaker 1>of an eight by ten seven, which he was in

0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:15.880
<v Speaker 1>for eighteen years. You know, that was That's humbling. So yeah,

0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:20.680
<v Speaker 1>I love what I do. It's not easy, it's hard work,

0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:25.760
<v Speaker 1>it's long hours, and it's so free and satisfying. It's great.

0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:28.760
<v Speaker 1>And I'm going to do it until I can't stand

0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:40.919
<v Speaker 1>up anymore. For On the Job, I'm Otus Gray. To

0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:43.240
<v Speaker 1>learn more about Kitty and her work, go to Kitty

0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:52.840
<v Speaker 1>Hailey dot com. Thanks for listening to On the Job,

0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:56.919
<v Speaker 1>brought to you by Express Employment Professionals. The season of

0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:00.359
<v Speaker 1>On the Job is produced by Audiation. The episodes written

0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:03.800
<v Speaker 1>and produced by me Otis Gray. Our executive producer is

0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.760
<v Speaker 1>Sandy Smallens. The show is mixed by Matt Noble for

0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:10.359
<v Speaker 1>Audiation Studios at the Loft in Bronxville, New York. Music

0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:15.040
<v Speaker 1>by Blue Dot Sessions. Find us on iHeartRadio and Apple Podcasts.

0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:18.359
<v Speaker 1>If you liked what you heard, please consider rating and

0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:21.359
<v Speaker 1>reviewing the show on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.

0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:25.040
<v Speaker 1>We'll see you next time. For more inspiring stories about

0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:35.000
<v Speaker 1>discovering your life's work, Audition