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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noel.

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Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We're joined with our guest super producer,

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Speaker 3: none other than Gnomes Griffin. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 3: You are here. That makes this the stuff they don't

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Speaker 3: want you to know, and we hope this exploration finds

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Speaker 3: you well. If you are in your own global neck

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Speaker 3: of the woods, or if you consider yourself a tourist abroad,

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Speaker 3: We've got a real way for you tonight, folks, real

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Speaker 3: weird one. At least it's a real one for the

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Speaker 3: real ones out there. There we go. Yeah, that's nice, Noel.

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Speaker 3: You're a bit of a tourist right now? How dare you? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I suppose you could say that, Yeah, I am on

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Speaker 4: a trip to New York City, But don't I don't

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Speaker 4: hang here like a tourist, or I'd like to think

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Speaker 4: so at least.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're a local now at this point, right, you

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Speaker 3: know where to go, how to step? You got your

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Speaker 3: supreme hat. You're looking good, you're looking.

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Speaker 5: To I try to step right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So we all remember our earlier series on a

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Speaker 3: concept that mystified us unanimously, diplomatic immunity. Part of that

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Speaker 3: goes back to the idea that you might be walking

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Speaker 3: around anywhere in these United States where we often record

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Speaker 3: the show, and you say, I got a parking ticket.

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Speaker 3: I have to pay a parking ticket. How do how

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Speaker 3: do these swells and these posh folks never have to

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Speaker 3: pay parking tickets. We got into this concept of diplomatic community,

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Speaker 3: which became a two part series, right, like a two

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Speaker 3: chapter episode. How would we explain diplomatic immunity get out

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Speaker 3: of jail free card? Right?

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Speaker 2: Essentially, Well, it's a very specialized position that someone who

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Speaker 2: is working for a different country operating in your country

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Speaker 2: wherever you are, they can have they can have these

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Speaker 2: these special rules that apply to them, where all of

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Speaker 2: the rules in that country where they're operating don't necessarily

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Speaker 2: apply to them because they're special, and they can take

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Speaker 2: things in and out of a country as long as

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Speaker 2: they put it in the right pouch or the right bag,

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Speaker 2: or it has the right numbers on it, which is

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Speaker 2: really fun and special, and we got into it even

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Speaker 2: further when we did I think we did a third one,

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Speaker 2: right Ben on what do we call it?

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Speaker 3: Shadow diplomacy?

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Speaker 2: Shadow diplomacy? That sounds nice.

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Speaker 3: That's a great setup. Oh my gosh. Yeah, and thank

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Speaker 3: you to everyone who reached out, including multiple tourism boards,

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Speaker 3: in response to our episodes on diplomatic immunity. And as

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Speaker 3: you said, Matt, shadow diplomacy, it's an ancient sort of

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Speaker 3: patch together series of gentlemen's agreements or traditions, and they

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Speaker 3: still play a role in the modern world. While we

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Speaker 3: were delving into this, we alluded to numerous instances where

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Speaker 3: some people will say diplomacy went wrong. So with that tonight,

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Speaker 3: we are exploring a specific case of a man that

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Speaker 3: may be known to sell. This guy is named Raymond

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Speaker 3: Alan Davis. So let's pause for a word from our sponsors,

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Speaker 3: and then let's introduce him. Everybody loves Raymond, except for

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Speaker 3: you know, Pakistan.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and many neighboring countries.

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Speaker 3: Well right, right, right, all right, we're doing the break.

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Speaker 3: Here are the facts. Everybody loves Raymond, right except for

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Speaker 3: the countries that Matt mentioned just a second ago. Can

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Speaker 3: we learn a little bit more about Raymond Davis.

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Speaker 4: We sure can so. First thing, Raymond Davis was not

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Speaker 4: born wealthy, unlike the oss Hires of the Golden Age.

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Speaker 3: He was not an.

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Speaker 4: Elite East Coast blue blood type of fellow. Instead, he

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Speaker 4: grew up in big Stone Gap, Virginia, which, in his words,

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Speaker 4: was a blink and you miss it type town. Perhaps

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Speaker 4: could be considered by some like a flyover country type situation,

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Speaker 4: not in the Midwest, but still similar concept. Coal country

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Speaker 4: is what you might call it, isolated in the mountains

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Speaker 4: and to a large degree, very much hidden away from

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Speaker 4: the rest of the world, both geographically and politically, and.

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Speaker 5: Just really as an idea of a place that exists.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and as we said, his family was not wealthy.

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Speaker 2: They were getting by. If you look in certain places,

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Speaker 2: you'll see that his father was a coal miner. You

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Speaker 2: also read about a stint as a bricklayer, also about

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Speaker 2: all of the jobs that his mother took on to

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Speaker 2: support the family when his father got injured, and just

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Speaker 2: you know, the struggles of trying to make enough money

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Speaker 2: to sustain what she got, not trying to reach for

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Speaker 2: anything huge and big out in the distance. Right. The

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Speaker 2: accumulation of wealth or something. It's let's get by.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And these are fantastic points to bring up

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Speaker 3: in the biography. So to be clear, this is not

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Speaker 3: a situation wherein Old Wild Bill Donovan drops by you know,

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Speaker 3: Princeton or Harvard or something and says, who wants to

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Speaker 3: have an adventure over there? You know, with World War two.

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Speaker 3: This is a kid, He's very much a child at

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Speaker 3: this point who has a rough start. As we're saying,

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Speaker 3: he is, by the way, an award winning bricklayer. He

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Speaker 3: won a competition on that front, and he's as a teen,

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Speaker 3: he's shoveling snow, he's chopping wood, all to make sure

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Speaker 3: that his family can stay aflat. He has two siblings,

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Speaker 3: a mother and a father, so there are a lot

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Speaker 3: of people to support, and like so many other kids

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Speaker 3: in rural Appalachia, he wants to see the wider world.

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Speaker 3: And the best chance he has to pursue this dream

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Speaker 3: is the Armed Forces. So originally Raymond wants to join

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Speaker 3: up with the Marines. Noel can give us an urah

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Speaker 3: urrah if you will perfect we did.

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Speaker 2: Let's also remember that he's a big dude and he

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Speaker 2: Raymond plays football, he does wrestling, and he ex sells

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Speaker 2: at both of those things where he's an imposing force physically.

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Speaker 3: The Armed Forces recruiters are not liking him for the Marines.

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Speaker 3: As he says in his later biography, The Or Autobiography,

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Speaker 3: the recruiters get this. They wanted toll skinny kids to

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Speaker 3: be Marines, and he was. This is a quote built

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Speaker 3: like a tree stump. So he is the opposite of

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Speaker 3: what the recruiters have in mind. And initially they tell him, Okay,

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Speaker 3: we're not gonna say no to any kid who wants

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Speaker 3: to join up with the war machine. You are going

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Speaker 3: to be what we call a sixty eight whiskey a medic. Ultimately,

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Speaker 3: I mean that's a field medic. He didn't know that

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Speaker 3: at the time. Ultimately he refuses that and he becomes

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Speaker 3: what we call an eleven mic that's an infantry man

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Speaker 3: in the US Army. So he gets shipped off to

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Speaker 3: Fort Benning, Georgia, first time he's ever been on a plane.

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Speaker 3: Georgia furthest farthest he's ever been from home. He's eighteen

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Speaker 3: years old. At this point. The world is ahead of him.

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Speaker 3: The horizon beckons fast forward. Stationed in Fort Lewis, he's

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Speaker 3: serving out the last of his four year commit to

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Speaker 3: the army, and then he has this life changing experience.

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Speaker 3: Some Special Forces trainers go to hangout and they have

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Speaker 3: all the ammo, they have all the cool toys, and

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Speaker 3: they have kind of a field trip and they say,

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Speaker 3: you know what, let's teach you how to shoot these guns. Right,

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Speaker 3: Let's teach you, you know, just a cool couple of moves.

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Speaker 3: And immediately this galvanizes him. It inspires him, and he thinks,

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Speaker 3: maybe I can one day become part of Special Forces.

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Speaker 3: It's a very difficult training regiment. The selection process is

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Speaker 3: such that there's a high rate of attrition. A lot

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Speaker 3: of folks don't make it. But lo and behold, Raymond

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Speaker 3: Davis cuts the mustard and eventually becomes what we would

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Speaker 3: call an eighteen bravo, a weapons sergeant. I don't know

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Speaker 3: if we can express just how brutal this training can be.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, this is intense stuff, for sure. I want

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Speaker 2: to bring something up that occurred to him right before

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Speaker 2: he signs up with Special Forces, which is interesting to

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Speaker 2: me and feels like another one of these moments that occurs.

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Speaker 2: He ends up spending a little bit of time right

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Speaker 2: before signing up with Special Forces in Macedonia, which is

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Speaker 2: it's a country just north of Greece out there, Bulgaria,

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Speaker 2: Serbia right around there in that area. And he's serving

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Speaker 2: as a UN peacekeeper out there. Yes, which to me

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Speaker 2: is the type of job that he's going to end

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Speaker 2: up in eventually. Not exactly the same kind, but has

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Speaker 2: a lot of similarities.

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Speaker 3: I think, right, yes, I agree with that. I see that.

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Speaker 3: As you know, he's an international man by various points

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Speaker 3: of Macedonia is a fascinating country. It may be an

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Speaker 3: episode in the future. I love that you're pointing that out.

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Speaker 3: This experience running into some of the g Watt guys,

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Speaker 3: George Watson Special Forces guys out there in Macedonia.

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Speaker 2: Is that what g Watt means.

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Speaker 3: I take it to mean that it's it's based on

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's lightly based on the career of the

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Speaker 3: legend George Watson. So, as we were saying, Matt, this

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Speaker 3: guy comes back and he is incredibly impressed with the

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Speaker 3: caliber of character he meets in the Special Forces trainers

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Speaker 3: right in this kind of field day exercise, and he

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Speaker 3: signs up. There's a tremendously high rate of attrition. Everyone,

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Speaker 3: by the way, forget everything you heard about like Apocalypse

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Speaker 3: Now or the other war propaganda films. Everyone who applies

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Speaker 3: for special forces, if they make that initial application and

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Speaker 3: they fail the first time, they can apply more than

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Speaker 3: what the thing is most people, if they can't get

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Speaker 3: that mustard the first time, then they go back home.

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Speaker 3: They don't want to do it.

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Speaker 5: Can't cut it right, can't cut that mustle.

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Speaker 3: Right right right, just so. And one of the most

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Speaker 3: think about it like grad school. One of the most

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Speaker 3: brutal aspects of this training is something called sahreve.

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Speaker 4: Heard about this recently in the TV series Lioness. They

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Speaker 4: depict it pretty brutally. It is essentially putting individuals through

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Speaker 4: the same kind of interrogation, torture, and absolutely brutal hazing

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Speaker 4: type rituals as maybe would be done to prisoners of

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Speaker 4: war or captured combatants.

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Speaker 3: Correct, yeah, yeah, could you give us the full pronunciation.

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Speaker 3: What is sarah an acronym.

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Speaker 4: For it is survival, evasion, resistance, and escape. People can

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Speaker 4: literally die throughout the course of this training because of

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Speaker 4: its incredible brutality, and it includes some you know, real

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Speaker 4: Sophie's choice Kobayashi maru type situations, unwinnable situations, forcing an

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Speaker 4: individual to think on their feet and make some highly

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Speaker 4: risky choices in mega mega clutch situations. These are accurate

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Speaker 4: simulations of real world events where people are required to

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Speaker 4: or training trainees are required to live off the land

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Speaker 4: attempting to evade very very implacable and brutal forces that

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Speaker 4: are on their tail, and you will be captured, and

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Speaker 4: you will, to what I was saying earlier, end up

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Speaker 4: experiencing something very much like what happens to actual prisoners

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Speaker 4: of war.

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Speaker 2: The concept of all of this is to almost give

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Speaker 2: somebody who's going through it the muscle memory of knowing

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Speaker 2: what it's like to be either left behind when you're

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Speaker 2: on a mission, or I think it is that, right,

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Speaker 2: Like you're out there on your own, so something happens.

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Speaker 2: Now it's just you and the land and there's enemies

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Speaker 2: all around you, right Like it's something that psychologically they're

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Speaker 2: trying to put, they're trying to instill psychologically for every

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Speaker 2: one of these people, these specialists that they're going to

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Speaker 2: end up sending out there as teams in case one

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Speaker 2: of them is lost.

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Speaker 3: Right, we love a familiar situation, right, We do not

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Speaker 3: enjoy novelty rights. That's part of it, and the reason

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Speaker 3: I wanted us to refer to cope Yashi Maru for

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Speaker 3: any Star Trek fan is the that is a climactic

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Speaker 3: part of this sci fi training, the unwinnable situation as

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Speaker 3: we know spoiler for a very old sci fi series.

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Speaker 3: Captain James T. Kirk is the only guy who beats

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Speaker 3: the Kobyashi Maru test originally because he changes the rules

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Speaker 3: of the game. He moves the constraints, and that's also

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Speaker 3: part of sare training. It's it's weird, right, It's it's

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Speaker 3: a strange thing to picture in any job, but it

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Speaker 3: is a job and it does mimic to high fidelity uh,

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Speaker 3: the experience of when things go wrong to your point

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Speaker 3: matt muscle memory familiarity. So during this training, Raymond suffers

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Speaker 3: some pretty heavy damage to his right lung specifically, it's

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Speaker 3: nineteen ninety eight at this point, but the full consequences

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Speaker 3: of his injury don't come to bear until two thousand

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Speaker 3: and one, when that lung pretty much clocks out and

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Speaker 3: stops working. He has a significant other. At this point,

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Speaker 3: they relocate to Lexington, Kentucky. He goes to Eastern Kentucky University.

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Speaker 3: There are a couple of asset protection classes or courses

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Speaker 3: that he's very interested in. But he's not a classroom guy.

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Speaker 3: He doesn't want to be stuck in the stuck at

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Speaker 3: a desk, right, He wants to be outside his own words,

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Speaker 3: So he rigorously trains himself back to health. And at

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Speaker 3: every step of this band's origin story, we see a

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Speaker 3: guy fighting against the odds and succeeding at pursuits the

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Speaker 3: ordinary person may well find impossible.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And then, like everybody else you know, who joins

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Speaker 2: the military, you either continue your contract. You know, if

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Speaker 2: you're in for a certain amount of time, you either

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Speaker 2: continue it on or you're done and you leave. So

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Speaker 2: he ends up leaving I think this is in three,

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Speaker 2: two thousand and three, and he does what a lot

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Speaker 2: of folks were doing in the early two thousands who

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Speaker 2: were either leaving the military or who had been out

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Speaker 2: of the military for quite a while. They join up

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Speaker 2: with a very lucrative group, a specific group we've talked

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Speaker 2: about many a time on this show known as Blackwater,

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Speaker 2: and these are military contractors that are operating in all

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Speaker 2: kinds of different places in the Middle East in the

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Speaker 2: early two thousands.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, in Mina, right, Middle East, North Africa, a couple

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Speaker 3: of other couple other of fun excursions. They got a

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Speaker 3: Dave and Busters everywhere.

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Speaker 4: It is.

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Speaker 3: This is familiar to a lot of us in the

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Speaker 3: audience tonight. Let's dispel some myths. From Raymond's own words,

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Speaker 3: he argues, a contractor is not the same thing as

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Speaker 3: a merk or a sorry mercenary or a soldier of fortune.

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Speaker 3: In his experience, every contractor PMC private military contractor that

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Speaker 3: he's met is working for you know, your academia, your

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Speaker 3: ex your Blackwater, your brown root or whatever. But they

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Speaker 3: have all retained the ideological motivation of the United States

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Speaker 3: global game.

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Speaker 2: It's like Wagner right.

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Speaker 5: Just so, and that's sear training. I mean a lot

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Speaker 5: of that is.

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Speaker 4: I mean you can't really deny that it is indoctrination

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Speaker 4: as well. I mean that level of you know, intense

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Speaker 4: hazing and brutal treatment kind of that's maybe meant to

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Speaker 4: make this stuff acceptable in some way and also perhaps

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Speaker 4: offer a helping hand at the end of it to

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Speaker 4: get you out of it in some way, shape or form.

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Speaker 4: There is some psychological indoctrination going on there, wouldn't you say?

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Speaker 4: That would be really hard to shake in one's lifetime.

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Speaker 3: I would say so, I would agree ISI does something similar.

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Speaker 3: Most modern nation states have some version of that shake

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Speaker 3: and bake, right, and some non state actors do the same.

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Speaker 3: To be quite clear, for Raymond's perspective, every contractor he

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Speaker 3: has met functioning under the letters of mar of the

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Speaker 3: United States, they had a previous military career and they

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Speaker 3: are working to further that ideology, right, They're not, in

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Speaker 3: his opinion, there are not merks who say, screw the US,

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Speaker 3: give me ten thousand dollars a bitcoin and let's figure

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Speaker 3: out this West African country together. That does happen. But

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Speaker 3: those guys are not the guys he's talking about.

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Speaker 2: Sure, but we're also taking the perspective of a man

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Speaker 2: who's been through the stuff we're about to talk about, right,

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Speaker 2: who has kind of been forced to play the role

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Speaker 2: of pawn in large political schemes and diplomatic things. So,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's just it's tough to know exactly what

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Speaker 2: that's like and what you would actually put in a

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Speaker 2: book when you write a book about your past life

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Speaker 2: and everything that's occurred and all of that.

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Speaker 3: Stuff, especially if they especially if you have a certain

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Speaker 3: set of editors.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and a co writer. Was that dude's name Storm's.

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Speaker 3: Reback, Yes, yeah, different from Stormy Daniels.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, different from Stormy Daniels. Correct interesting character on other

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Speaker 2: books that he's co written, like officially, you know. And

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Speaker 2: as we know, anybody who's got co writing credits like

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Speaker 2: on Amazon has probably written way more books. Just their

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Speaker 2: name didn't end up on there.

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Speaker 3: Somebody else's did, right, right, Yeah, we've we've been through

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Speaker 3: the fire on that one together. H The idea is

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Speaker 3: that every contractor Raymond meets per his own government approved

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Speaker 3: autobiography or memoir, they all want to function for the

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Speaker 3: best interest of the United States, to quote, support and

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Speaker 3: defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies

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Speaker 3: foreign and domestic. That is such a banger line. I

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Speaker 3: don't know about you, guys, It never gets old for me.

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Speaker 4: Have you ever thought about unpacking it? I mean, like,

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Speaker 4: does it seem specific enough to you or is there

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Speaker 4: some kind of broad brush type language there?

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Speaker 3: Oh, it's totally broad brush. You nailed it, you know

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Speaker 3: what I mean? Especially the folks who wrote this were

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Speaker 3: clearly imperfect, and they were clearly and purposely vague. Right,

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Speaker 3: is what is foreign in the seventeen hundreds. What is

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Speaker 3: foreign now? What is domestic in the seventeen hundreds is

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Speaker 3: now right, right, right right? What is the defense?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we learned what some of those things mean with

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Speaker 2: the remember those rock war tapes and some of the

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Speaker 2: things that came out via wiki leaks right around that

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Speaker 2: same time. Correct, specifically with blackwater contractors and the killing

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Speaker 2: of civilians. Kind of it's it's scary stuff. And we're

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Speaker 2: certainly not saying Raymond was a part of any of

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Speaker 2: that specific thing. It's just there. There's a complexity to

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Speaker 2: a military contractor.

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Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, and we also call it the Department of Defense, yes,

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Speaker 3: ten no notes. This idea of contracting is, by the way,

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Speaker 3: not an original pursuit. Contractors civilians assisting war efforts, which

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Speaker 3: would be the technical definition. They're present in the DNA

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Speaker 3: of the United States all the way back to the

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Speaker 3: days of the Revolutionary War. Very tall, very unhinged ginger

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Speaker 3: named George Washington was hiring folks I, you know, to

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Speaker 3: mainly to persecute for his cause. Civilians have always assisted.

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Speaker 3: Raymond's career is a reflection of that. It took him

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Speaker 3: around the world, especially in the wake of September eleventh,

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Speaker 3: we mentioned his time in Macedonia. We should also mention

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Speaker 3: his experience in Afghanistan.

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Speaker 2: Ben I couldn't find much on his actual time as

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Speaker 2: a contractor for Blackwater in Afghanistan between three and six.

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Speaker 2: What did you find out there?

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Speaker 3: Oh, he's just having a grand ole time, you know, learning.

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Speaker 3: So you should see Matt's face, folks, learning some surveillance,

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Speaker 3: some infiltrations, some best practices, primarily in Afghanistan. At that point,

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Speaker 3: we're talking about protectingtecting arms of US interest, right, So

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Speaker 3: that could be individuals, that could be high value infrastructure

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Speaker 3: that could be believe it.

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Speaker 2: There, giant palettes of billions of dollars in cash that

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Speaker 2: accidentally fell off a giant plane.

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Speaker 3: Counts as infrastructure.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so it's really interesting. We don't know a ton

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Speaker 2: of actual detail outside of what stated in the book there,

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Speaker 2: but we do know. In two thousand and six, Raymond

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Speaker 2: leaves Blackwater, he leaves the Middle East, he comes back

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Speaker 2: to the United States, goes to Las Vegas. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 2: his roots are in Virginia. His roots are you know, elsewhere,

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Speaker 2: maybe in Georgia after spending so much time there, But

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Speaker 2: he goes to Las Vegas and starts a private like

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Speaker 2: I don't know, what would you call it, almost a

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Speaker 2: he starts a private contracting service as like a bodyguard service,

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Speaker 2: as a know, anything you might imagine is almost private.

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Speaker 3: Intelligence, security consulting.

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Speaker 2: There you go, that's a good way to put it.

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Speaker 2: We've met a few folks who are security consultants, who

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Speaker 2: really ex military, who just offer those services to anybody

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Speaker 2: who has the budget who needs some security, usually for

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Speaker 2: moving a high value person, just like he was doing

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Speaker 2: in Afghanistan, or high value assets, moving those things around.

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Speaker 2: He's the kind of guy that would do things like

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Speaker 2: check the surroundings of a meeting place right or where

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Speaker 2: a meeting is gonna be held. It reminds me a

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Speaker 2: lot of that character. I always forget his.

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Speaker 3: Name, Homer Simpson.

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Speaker 4: That's the one specifically, Homer Simpson backing away into the bush.

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Speaker 2: No, it's the character from Breaking Bad and Better call

379
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Speaker 2: Saul whose dogs like yeah, yes.

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Speaker 4: It reminds me of a man true consult material, taking

381
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Speaker 4: his you know, police training and then just you know,

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Speaker 4: giving him a leg up in the world of crime.

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Speaker 4: So I think that's an interesting parallel that you point out.

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Speaker 5: Matt.

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Speaker 3: You can always tell those guys h new offense. Some

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Speaker 3: of us are listening tonight. We could always tell dudes,

387
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 3: it's not that you're mean or presenting something aggressive. It's

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Speaker 3: the fact that you always please beat me here. It's

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Speaker 3: the fact that you always look so tired whenever something happens,

390
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 3: and you're like, so, there's probably a tracer. It's probably

391
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Speaker 3: in the gas cap.

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Speaker 4: Remember the episode where he took the car apart entirely

393
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Speaker 4: and then couldn't find it and then finally found it.

394
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 4: Like it wasn't the yes, thank you, It was in

395
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Speaker 4: the gas cap spoilers, but it took him a minute

396
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Speaker 4: to find it, but he worked his butt off to

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Speaker 4: get there.

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Speaker 2: If you can eat a gun, I'll just take one

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Speaker 2: of yours.

400
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Speaker 3: Take one of your yes, exactly the kind of guys

401
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Speaker 3: who are who will have someone tied to a chair

402
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 3: and roll their eyes and be like, ah, my niece

403
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Speaker 3: is real irritating, and when I have to do this today, okay.

404
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Speaker 2: Y Well, the folks at the CIA.

405
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Speaker 3: Oh sure, yeah, take a little took a.

406
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Speaker 2: Little liking to whatever Raymond was doing, either during his

407
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Speaker 2: service or while he was out there in Las Vegas.

408
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Speaker 2: And wasn't it right after this that he officially gets

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Speaker 2: his green badge.

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Speaker 3: Predictable, consistent delivers we like those.

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Speaker 2: Right, then, that just means that he's officially a contractor

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Speaker 2: for the CIA, where he can go in and out

413
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Speaker 2: of Langley with a special little green badge that's given

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Speaker 2: out to these folks.

415
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Speaker 3: Yes, that is a real thing. And with that brief background,

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Speaker 3: let's travel to Pakistan. We've given you the quick skinny

417
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Speaker 3: on an accomplished successful man. It's January twenty seventh, twenty eleven, right,

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Speaker 3: so about a decade after the events of September eleventh,

419
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Speaker 3: two thousand and one. January twenty seventh at this time

420
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Speaker 3: is going to be the day that changes everything and

421
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Speaker 3: puts the world very close to disaster. What do we mean.

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Speaker 3: We're going to pause for a word from our sponsors

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Speaker 3: and then we'll dive in. Here's where it gets crazy,

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Speaker 3: all right, Laharre Pakistan cosmopolitan place, metropolis, right, it's long

425
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 3: been considered the cultural capital of that country, just like

426
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Speaker 3: New York City. It's very crowded, just like Tokyo. It's

427
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 3: very crowded. It's also dangerous. As Noel said earlier, you

428
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Speaker 3: got a step right, so onto stage walks our guy Raymond.

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Speaker 3: He's about thirty seven years old at this point.

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Speaker 4: Right, and he's a CIA contractor at this point, working

431
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Speaker 4: with a team to safeguard US functionaries from the State

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Speaker 4: Department and us AID USAID. They're in Pakistan and surrounding countries,

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Speaker 4: most specifically and notably Afghanistan, and this is really really

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Speaker 4: important work. In most cases, these guys are for all

435
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 4: intents and purposes, ghosts. They're invisible attaches, perhaps some it

436
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 4: you know, consultants on board, attached to your local consulate

437
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 4: or embassy.

438
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 5: And they're not.

439
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 4: You know, typical soldier jarhead types out there knocking people

440
00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 4: around in Okinawa or soul Korea. Instead, they are much

441
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 4: more like herding cats, you know, acting as a shepherd.

442
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 4: Functionaries kind of continually assessing the environment around them, observing,

443
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 4: making notes, familiarizing themselves with the region and the peculiarities

444
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 4: of the regions, specific details and customs around neighborhoods, or

445
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 4: assessments around a particular mission, in the hopes that the

446
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 4: people that they are safeguarding will listen to their advice.

447
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 5: This is always a bit of a dice roll there.

448
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 2: Well, and let's just put this out here to state

449
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 2: it plainly. This type of role is not outwardly projecting

450
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 2: Hey I'm a CIA contractor Hey I am working with

451
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 2: the CIA. It's more like I'm gonna put my badge

452
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 2: underneath my shirt or whatever it is that I'm wearing,

453
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 2: so nobody knows who I am or what I'm doing.

454
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 2: But if I get stopped, I can pull it out

455
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 2: and say, hey, I'm with the Consolate or something like that.

456
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 3: Right. You can always tag base, yes, but.

457
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 2: They are unassuming. If you encountered them, somebody like Raymond

458
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 2: in the wild, you would have no idea what his

459
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 2: job is and what he's doing.

460
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,479
Speaker 3: I'm just the driver. You get what I'll mean.

461
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 2: Well, and you could say that, right and maybe get

462
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 2: away with whatever you're doing.

463
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 3: And I don't think so with that accent. No, I

464
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 3: don't think that accent will work.

465
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 2: In karaate or something.

466
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah, But but I guess my whole point

467
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 6: is he looks like a civilian essentially walking around from

468
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 6: a different country.

469
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 3: And he's not driving a fancy car. He doesn't have

470
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 3: a suit from the high street. He's probably rocking the

471
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 3: kind of flad or flannel that you would see so

472
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 3: common in the Pacific Northwest or in Austin, Texas.

473
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 2: And you can see pictures of his outfit very much

474
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 2: much can you can see pictures of his little Honda

475
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 2: Civic as well.

476
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 3: It's a white Honda Civic, you know, good cars. This

477
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 3: episode is brought to you, uh within in part with

478
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 3: great disagreement from Uncle Sah. This is brought to you

479
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 3: by white Honda Civics in Pakistan. So look, this is

480
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 3: a tremendously frustrating gig. You were out there telling very

481
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 3: important people, right, very ideologically motivated people at times to

482
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 3: keep their own heads on a swivel. You thought the

483
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 3: bellagio was Harry, which it is right around two thirty

484
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 3: three am local time. This is a different world, right,

485
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 3: This is a world where someone may be bringing aid, right,

486
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 3: maybe attempting to provide medical care, and then they get popped. Right.

487
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 3: You have to understand there is a very small margin

488
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,240
Speaker 3: of error, and people who are used to being treated

489
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 3: as though they are important often lose their faculties for surveillance. Right,

490
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 3: that that is just part of the gig. So a

491
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 3: lot of folks don't listen to Raymond, right, and he

492
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 3: and his team do it their best.

493
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 2: Absolutely, A couple of context pieces here we mentioned that

494
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 2: he is functioning essentially for the State Department and USAID,

495
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 2: the thing that just got almost completely fully shut down

496
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 2: here in the United States. USAID is the arm that

497
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 2: was What do we say, guys, we say it the

498
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 2: way they say it. They're providing aid to other countries.

499
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,399
Speaker 2: And what does that mean money? It means money so

500
00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 2: that certain functions can occur either within the government or

501
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 2: for support structures of a government. And USAID as a

502
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 2: part of the State Department slash US government, we provide

503
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 2: money to countries for things like stability, right to make

504
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 2: sure whatever governing party is in charge does some of

505
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,359
Speaker 2: the things kind of the way we would like them

506
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 2: to do just a little bit, just enough, right, it's

507
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 2: a nudge. But that money that's coming in from USAID

508
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 2: is highly important, especially at this time to countries like Pakistan,

509
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 2: specifically to Pakistan.

510
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,359
Speaker 3: Did you ever hear the old shipoleth that we we

511
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 3: used to go too often resources and inspiration? Oh god, yeah,

512
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,439
Speaker 3: I don't know this one. Then tell me it's it's

513
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 3: where you it's like a shekel off, Yeah, let's shove

514
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 3: it off. No, it's a word or a saying. It's

515
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 3: a thought terminating cliche. That's okay, Like.

516
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 4: Like an anti aphorism, you could you could always resort

517
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 4: to one.

518
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 3: Uh. Look, people are resorting to these ideological laches or

519
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 3: to these clear and present from Raymond's perspective, to these

520
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 3: clear and present threats. So this guy is driving around

521
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 3: just like uh, he's done several days prior, just like

522
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 3: his team has done as well. And he spends he

523
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 3: spends a good deal of time in in his uh

524
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:45,839
Speaker 3: autobiography talking about this Honda Civic and gnomes. We know

525
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 3: you love when we bring up the hondas.

526
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 5: Uh, you're a guy, made no secret.

527
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 4: About that, Ben, Yeah, out of respect to you.

528
00:36:58,000 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 3: Out of respect to you, Ben.

529
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 5: No odyssees will be in my garage.

530
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 3: There's one bad one. There's one bad Honda.

531
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 2: Just the honesty that my sister drives. But we did

532
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 2: have a whole conversation about Honda fits.

533
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 3: No. Yeah, I love a fit.

534
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm a fit man for love of you.

535
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 3: Man. All right, So you're welcome, buckeroos. So everybody please

536
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:27,720
Speaker 3: do avoid Honda odyssees. If you take nothing else away

537
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 3: from this parable The headline is this Raymond is is

538
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 3: learning roots, right, evaluating the streets. So this is not

539
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 3: like driving a black cab in London. You can't just

540
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 3: know the fastest point from A to Z. You have

541
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 3: to know how that point or how that passage works

542
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 3: at any given time. Right. And so they're running the

543
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 3: roots right, and like you said, Matt, they're making it

544
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 3: muscle memory. And the headline is this both the nation

545
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 3: of Pakistan and the nation of the United States agree.

546
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 3: On January twenty seventh, twenty eleven, our guy Raymond is

547
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 3: in traffic. A motorbike stops in front of him. There

548
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 3: are two Pakistani nationals on that motorbike. One of them

549
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 3: per Raymond raises a firearm, which he says indicates clear intent.

550
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 3: And he's saying, like, there's one guy driving facing away

551
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 3: from him. The guy on the back is turning around.

552
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 3: He's got that little telltale bulge and he produces a firearm.

553
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 3: He raises it toward Raymond through the windshield of that

554
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 3: Honda Civic. Go time. Yeah.

555
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:56,240
Speaker 4: Raymond reacts as per his training and shoots the men,

556
00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:00,800
Speaker 4: who are later identified as Faison Hider and Fai Sham

557
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 4: Shot also sometimes referred to as Mohammed Fahim, Fahim was

558
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 4: twenty six Hyer twenty two. Raymond shot five rounds from

559
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 4: his service weapon through the windshield of his Honda. Additional

560
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 4: reports claimed that he got out of the vehicle and

561
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 4: unloaded four more rounds into the men as they lay

562
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 4: on the pavement mortally wounded.

563
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:23,439
Speaker 3: Yeah.

564
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 2: My understanding is that he those initial shots through the

565
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 2: windshield right the person had the gun, and then he

566
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,800
Speaker 2: got out of his vehicle and shot at the second person,

567
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 2: who was high driver right ain' away.

568
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and they when these two young men in

569
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 3: their twenties were already incapacitated. Pakistani news sources say that

570
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:54,800
Speaker 3: he followed up, you know, and he double tapped essentially.

571
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 2: Well yeah, okay, So if we're putting Raymond in that situation,

572
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:01,839
Speaker 2: in that moment when you see a gun aimed at

573
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 2: you and you're you're performing those capabilities on the behalf

574
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 2: of an intelligence agency slash, you know, USAID, slash the

575
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:14,479
Speaker 2: State Department, you may imagine that those men are there

576
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 2: to kill you, and that is their only purpose. That

577
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,360
Speaker 2: is why they're on that specific vehicle that can be

578
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,720
Speaker 2: a speedy getaway, and that's why they're they're so mobile,

579
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 2: right with a firearm like that if you're in that

580
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 2: position and you have that training, I imagine that is

581
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 2: the reaction that you have take out the threat.

582
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 3: Right.

583
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 2: The details though, as this goes on about what those

584
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 2: young men were actually doing and had been doing like

585
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:45,439
Speaker 2: for most of that day and for several days, it's

586
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 2: a it's it makes it more complex, but it doesn't

587
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 2: make in my mind, it's weird. It doesn't make Raymond's

588
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 2: actions necessarily wrong, except for the continual shooting after the

589
00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 2: threat is disabled.

590
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 3: Makes you wonder whether some sort of familiarity existed. Right. Look,

591
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 3: that's a great point because at this instance, the public

592
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 3: knowledge in Pakistan and the US, it begins to diverge, right,

593
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 3: and these two countries are agreed that these kids are dead,

594
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 3: these twenty somethings are dead or Raymond Alan Davis definitely

595
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:40,320
Speaker 3: takes photograph and video evidence of the scene, and while

596
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 3: he's doing this, he is radioing the rest of the

597
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 3: team for backup. They have, in my opinion, a slightly

598
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 3: better car, sorry to say it, it's a Toyota land Cruiser,

599
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 3: and these guys go cinematic with it. They are attempting

600
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 3: to reach the scene immediately, and they're coming from a

601
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 3: private residence on Scotch Corner. Again, Pakistan and US media

602
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 3: disagree about what the GPS evidence presents, which we'll get to.

603
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 3: This land cruiser is super interesting if you're a traffic

604
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 3: cop in Pakistan, or what they would call a traffic warden,

605
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,839
Speaker 3: just someone who asked to as you said, Noel, heard

606
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 3: the cats of motorbikes and vehicles, because this land Cruiser

607
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 3: is rock and fake ID. It has false ID registration

608
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:38,959
Speaker 3: plates and despite you know, that's fine out in their

609
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,720
Speaker 3: rural verbs right out when you're trying to get past

610
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 3: the checkpoint or whatever, people might not radio that in.

611
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 3: But false plates are not going to help you in traffic,

612
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 3: you know what I mean?

613
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially if you're going the wrong way on a

614
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 2: one way street, right.

615
00:42:55,640 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, So quickly, this land Cruiser of invisible men

616
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 3: becomes cartoonishly visible. They swerve over a grassy median and

617
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 3: they blast through oncoming traffic. Picture literally every traffic scene

618
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 3: you've witnessed in a blockbuster Hollywood film. They're doing that

619
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:22,800
Speaker 3: right now.

620
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 2: And let's remember, a land cruiser is a giant suv. Like,

621
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 2: it's a big ass suv.

622
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 3: It's a chonky boy for sure, right, and we're in

623
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 3: a land of motorbikes and honestly smaller, more economic vehicles.

624
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 3: So this whale is swimming against the tide around these

625
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 3: panicked dolphins, right and these workday salmon. If we're gonna

626
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 3: spin that weird fish analogy out see analogy out. Anyway,

627
00:43:55,840 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 3: maritime stuff aside, This is not the movies. This is

628
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:04,760
Speaker 3: real life. That land cruiser which did have an excellent driver,

629
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 3: it hits an innocent bystander by both countries' reports. It's

630
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 3: a guy named Abador Ramen. He is on a motorbike.

631
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:21,839
Speaker 3: And we have to remember that all those crazy chases

632
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 3: you see in film are not like what happens in

633
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 3: real life. In real life, people do.

634
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 4: Die absolutely collateral damage. And this is you know, takes

635
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 4: what could have perhaps been a more contained situation and

636
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,919
Speaker 4: now makes it much more of a diplomatic crisis because

637
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 4: Pakistan is not happy.

638
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:43,399
Speaker 2: Yes, And while all of this is happening, there are

639
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 2: three men. There are two men shot, one man who's

640
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 2: been struck by a large suv right in this traffic,

641
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 2: in this chaos. One of the men who has been

642
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,879
Speaker 2: shot is dead on the scene. One of the other

643
00:44:55,920 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 2: men who is shot is in extremely c condition but

644
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 2: still alive. And then the man who's struck by the

645
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 2: sub is still alive in critical condition. They are both

646
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 2: like being hurried to a hospital as quickly as possible.

647
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, the closest hospital, which would be called service hospital.

648
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:20,840
Speaker 3: Fahim and Abador survive long enough to get there, but

649
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 3: they both die. And at this point, the crew in

650
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 3: that Toyota cruiser they ghost immediately and they are racing

651
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 3: hell to pedal. Like picture a fire truck right, picture

652
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 3: of fire truck that does not play the siren noise.

653
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 3: It is racing to reach the safety of the US consulate.

654
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 3: And apparently they're throwing some stuff out of the window

655
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 3: on the way. They're dumping some things. Do we want

656
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 3: to do a list?

657
00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 2: It's a weird list.

658
00:45:57,920 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 5: It's a very weird list.

659
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 7: Some of these things fetish, I like to bit, I

660
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 7: like to be bow here, Dennis, Oh my goods, gracious, no,

661
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:10,919
Speaker 7: not quite right.

662
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 3: We're talking ammunition, battery.

663
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:19,879
Speaker 4: Cells, scissors, gloves, a mask, and a blind phoat. Okay, Ben,

664
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 4: you were getting a little closer to what you're talking

665
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 4: about here, a baton compass. So some of this is,

666
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 4: you know, kind of wilderness. He boy scouty stuff, and

667
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 4: then some of it may be a little more sketch.

668
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 2: And some of the yellow American spirits. No, I'm just joking.

669
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 3: I oh, I believe there was a punch card for

670
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 3: a local shop and you know, a huge tragedy. Eight

671
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 3: of the ten holes were punched, so it was like

672
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:48,320
Speaker 3: two sandwiches.

673
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 2: Oh man, whats the weirdest thing, you guys is that

674
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 2: the folks whoever was inside this land cruiser made a

675
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 2: great attempt to get to where Raymond was in his

676
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:05,800
Speaker 2: Honda Civic, and yet they just decided the GTFO without

677
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 2: picking up Raymond, which feels like a really strange move

678
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 2: to me. I don't understand why you would just abscond

679
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 2: like that after causing such a scene without picking up.

680
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:18,759
Speaker 1: Uh.

681
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 2: You know what I'm assuming is your target or you're

682
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 2: you're genle your teammate.

683
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're objective, Yeah, yeah, we if we game it out.

684
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 3: What most likely would happen in that situation is that

685
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 3: they were responding to the possibility of firefight, right, the

686
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 3: possibility of other folks going on the scene, and then

687
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 3: they got the order to skidadle back. We know that Raymond,

688
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 3: he was not abandoned by these folks. They're all following orders.

689
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 3: Raymond also attempts to move the Honda Civic has a

690
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 3: cartoonish windshield at this point, but it's still drivable, right

691
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 3: because there is no bullet that hit the engine. He

692
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:13,439
Speaker 3: makes it as far as old Anarcholi Food Street, and

693
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:19,879
Speaker 3: those traffic officers, those wardens we mentioned earlier, they ask

694
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,880
Speaker 3: him to stop. They stand in front of the car,

695
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 3: he complies, They bring him to the police. Maybe at

696
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 3: this point we stop for a word from our sponsors

697
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 3: and then get to the you know, a fallow Yeah,

698
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 3: and we're back now. No earlier you said Pakistan is pissed.

699
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:47,879
Speaker 3: Could you tell us a little bit about that.

700
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 5: Well, they're certainly not pleased.

701
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:51,720
Speaker 4: You know, as I was saying, what could have perhaps

702
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 4: been a little bit more of a contained situation has

703
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 4: now become really messy. Potentially, Pakistan is a government that

704
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 4: has been put in a particular tough situation because the

705
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 4: Honda was found to have a handgun, a telescope something

706
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 4: we're referring to here ben as a shadowy GPS not

707
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:14,760
Speaker 4: a brand there are we talking about sketchy GPS type stuff? Okay,

708
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 4: fair enough, Burner cell phones. We've got satellite phone, the

709
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 4: kind of things you might find in a go bag,

710
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 4: minus the loose diamonds. We've got multiple IDs and bank cards.

711
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:28,760
Speaker 4: Perhaps most disturbingly, how from their perspective, is a camera

712
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:33,760
Speaker 4: with clear photographs of some stuff that Pakistan would prefer

713
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:38,319
Speaker 4: you not to know. We're talking images of military installations

714
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:40,240
Speaker 4: along the border with India.

715
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 2: And we're talking images that somebody took with this camera,

716
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 2: like sy had this camera and they were walking around

717
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:52,840
Speaker 2: military installations taking photographs of stuff, of our secret stuff.

718
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,839
Speaker 2: And who is this guy? Basically is the question, will

719
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:00,479
Speaker 2: you find that stuff in the Honda? You go, who

720
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 2: the F is this guy?

721
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 3: Oh? Oh, I'm sorry, officer, I didn't know. I couldn't

722
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:07,359
Speaker 3: do that.

723
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 2: Oh well, well then you're free to go.

724
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 3: Oh great, all right, five stars on YELP for you, sir.

725
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 3: So there's a side note here that point about military installation,

726
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 3: surveillance and photography is key. Pakistan is a nuclear capable

727
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:34,800
Speaker 3: country and it is very much like ex partner angry

728
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 3: at India. They hate each other. The border ceremony is

729
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 3: amazing and worth your time. It went viral in the

730
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:48,279
Speaker 3: West several years back. They do not trust each other,

731
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:53,280
Speaker 3: and both countries are kind of frenemies with the US

732
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 3: and it's not their fault, it's based on US actions previously.

733
00:50:57,239 --> 00:50:58,760
Speaker 3: These are all rational actors.

734
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 2: Well, and there's lots of money getting pumped into both

735
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 2: India and Pakistan by usaid.

736
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:10,359
Speaker 3: You guys like money, let's have some. Yeah, never mind

737
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 3: the camera, so imagine the relative you don't want to

738
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 3: see Thanksgiving. This is far beyond that. Do we want

739
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 3: to talk a little bit just for context about India

740
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 3: Pakistan relationships.

741
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,879
Speaker 5: They are not buddies, they're not buckeroos.

742
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and this is something we're seeing play out

743
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 2: in the news now like s here in twenty twenty five,

744
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:45,319
Speaker 2: where it's getting escalated, these tensions, these like hand with

745
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 2: a finger on the trigger, just waiting, just waiting for

746
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:49,439
Speaker 2: the other side to do.

747
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 5: Something type stuff.

748
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 2: Yes, and at this moment we also have to remember

749
00:51:56,320 --> 00:52:01,759
Speaker 2: that it's twenty eleven. It's been ten years since the

750
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 2: September eleventh, a little less than ten years since that attack.

751
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 2: There are factions within Pakistan that are very much on

752
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 2: that track of what George W. Bush would call, you know,

753
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 2: terror like but really like groups are who are down

754
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:26,759
Speaker 2: with we probably should destroy America kind of vibe that

755
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 2: is not the governing force within Pakistan because again that

756
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 2: force has little strings attached with all that US money

757
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:39,319
Speaker 2: and other stuff coming in. So there's it's almost like

758
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 2: the tensions are ready to boil over from these other

759
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:46,719
Speaker 2: groups within the country, but it hasn't yet. So it's

760
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:47,720
Speaker 2: a delicate balance.

761
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 3: And just like the CIA historically at times in the US,

762
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:59,360
Speaker 3: the ISI, the inter services intelligence of Pakistan is believed

763
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 3: to bemised in one way or another by ideological factions.

764
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 3: This is again not a condemnation of these various intelligence services.

765
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 3: I'm just saying, if you hang out at a barber

766
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 3: shop long enough, you're gonna get a haircut, you know

767
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 3: what I mean.

768
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:23,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, or a good dose of hot goss, that's for sure.

769
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 3: For sure. And so this is a pickle. Right, the

770
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:32,520
Speaker 3: media gets in front of this story, the West and Pakistan.

771
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 3: All of the stands that still have something like a press,

772
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 3: they are publishing about this. Right. India is dining out

773
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 3: on this. They kind of love it. And we have

774
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:51,320
Speaker 3: to remember that both of these countries, the United States

775
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 3: and Pakistan, they have a deep investment in one another.

776
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:59,839
Speaker 3: Because of what you're describing war on terror. They're practicing

777
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:05,319
Speaker 3: Kissinger level real politic. So Pakistan in that case, in

778
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 3: a zero some game, they want any possible negotiation leverage

779
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 3: over their frenemies in the West. The media war begins.

780
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:21,799
Speaker 3: Uncle Sam immediately says, Raymond from Virginia, he's a diplomat.

781
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:23,439
Speaker 4: Well, this is a real test of all the things

782
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:26,439
Speaker 4: we've been talking about, isn't it. Because they bulk at

783
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:30,839
Speaker 4: that US claims that he is classified under the Vienna

784
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:35,799
Speaker 4: Convention and is therefore subject to certain, you know, leniencies, privileges,

785
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:41,040
Speaker 4: let's just say, dispensations. Pakistan disagrees, and legal arguments start

786
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 4: getting into the mix.

787
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well, and let's not forget. When Raymond finally

788
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:48,359
Speaker 2: gets out of his civic and he gets pulled over

789
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:51,319
Speaker 2: by those traffic cops, they're like, who are you? And

790
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 2: they take him into the police and they say who

791
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 2: are you? And he says, I'm a consultant. I just

792
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:01,240
Speaker 2: work as a consultant at the console a general in Lahore.

793
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 2: I'm a consultant. And he picks up his shirt. Remember

794
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:07,280
Speaker 2: we talked about having IDs and stuff on your shirt.

795
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:09,359
Speaker 2: He picks it up and shows them, Yeah, that's who

796
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 2: I am. I don't have my passport and stuff on me,

797
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:13,440
Speaker 2: but look I've got.

798
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 4: This green badge. But he does not present specific diplomatic credentials.

799
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 4: This is something different, right.

800
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,360
Speaker 3: He's got a card essentially like our earlier conversations on

801
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 3: diplomatic community. He nailed it, guys. He's got a card

802
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:32,800
Speaker 3: that that says call this person, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

803
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,440
Speaker 2: So when when the US governor says, oh, he's a diplomat, right,

804
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:39,480
Speaker 2: You're like, oh, okay, well wait a second, I don't

805
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:40,040
Speaker 2: know about that.

806
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 3: I don't know about that the government. It's a sticky wicket.

807
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:45,759
Speaker 2: Uh.

808
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 3: Cricket's very popular in Pakistan, it is, You're right. So

809
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:57,319
Speaker 3: the question becomes is this contractor on staff or is

810
00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:03,800
Speaker 3: he a hot head in acting on his own dangerous accord.

811
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 4: Right or his dangerous civic Sorry right, no joke left by?

812
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 3: That was great?

813
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:10,319
Speaker 4: Well?

814
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 2: Can we also just state authorities are also trying to

815
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:15,360
Speaker 2: figure out who those young men were on the motorcycle

816
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:18,239
Speaker 2: because nobody knows, right, like, what were they doing there,

817
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 2: Why were they there? What was their purpose that they

818
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:22,319
Speaker 2: were there to take him out?

819
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 5: It would seem that they were there to assassinate this.

820
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:28,680
Speaker 3: Man private eye of watching you.

821
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:30,520
Speaker 4: I mean, did they not pull up to him on

822
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:33,000
Speaker 4: a motorcycle and draw down on him?

823
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:34,440
Speaker 2: Yes?

824
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:37,479
Speaker 5: Okay, that just seems like what it seems to me now, you're.

825
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:46,439
Speaker 2: Right, beautiful. But the official story is that these young

826
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 2: men were on basically a crime spree, of some sort

827
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 2: of low level crime spree where they're committing robberies, right,

828
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:59,560
Speaker 2: and they just happened to pull in front of this Contractor's.

829
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:03,320
Speaker 3: Really really see a white guy, Wyhanta civic.

830
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 2: I guess that's true.

831
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:08,120
Speaker 4: Maybe nobody's put it pointing the finger at something greater

832
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:09,440
Speaker 4: than that.

833
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:14,080
Speaker 2: It's all about plausible deniability, right, like every layer of this.

834
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:20,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's true. So Raymond and Uncle Sam, the Department

835
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 3: of State, This, by the way, goes all the way

836
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 3: to the potus. They argue, this guy acted in self defense.

837
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 3: As as as we're saying there was a street level

838
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 3: crime spree, it could have been anyone behind that motorbike.

839
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 3: This guy happened to have the education and muscle memory

840
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 3: to respond to a threat. Pakistan's authorities disagree and they

841
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 3: say no, actually no, sorry, Uncle Sam, this is one

842
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 3: of your guys, and this American murdered two innocent twenty

843
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 3: year olds in traffic and then he escalated that incident.

844
00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 2: Yep. Let's also gosh, there's so much context to this,

845
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 2: this thing that happens, right, That's why it's considered one

846
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:17,120
Speaker 2: of those special moments that had ripples like that were

847
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:20,000
Speaker 2: far reaching and that you can still feel them today.

848
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:22,840
Speaker 2: Just before this, I don't know if it was years

849
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:26,480
Speaker 2: before this or months before this, the United States sent

850
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:30,440
Speaker 2: drone strikes to several areas of Pakistan. So within the

851
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 2: country there's already this resentment against the United States for

852
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 2: using these machines to come out and do targeted killings

853
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:41,120
Speaker 2: or targeted strikes or what. I forget the words that

854
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 2: were used by the Obama administration back in the day,

855
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:48,440
Speaker 2: but they were taking out specific targets with drones in

856
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 2: Pakistan around this time. So it is this whole thing

857
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:55,600
Speaker 2: is almost seen as symbolic, right, especially for the high

858
00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:56,840
Speaker 2: level players.

859
00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 3: Right right, and this is in the mill u when

860
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:08,760
Speaker 3: Pakistan and the US or trying to publicly play nice,

861
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 3: there's a lot on the line. I mean, I think

862
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:15,520
Speaker 3: it was Pervez musha Ref was on the Daily Show

863
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 3: around this time. Do you guys remember him, President of

864
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 3: Pakistan Sorrry.

865
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:22,840
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, of course I do.

866
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, it's an interview that's worth your time. So Raymond,

867
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:34,760
Speaker 3: Raymond gets jammed up two charges of homicide, and the

868
00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:38,040
Speaker 3: evidence is there he did shoot these kits for sure.

869
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:40,320
Speaker 4: I mean, he's becoming kind of the sacrificial lamb in

870
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:44,640
Speaker 4: this diplomatic hubbub. The US, however, does pressure Pakistan to

871
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:50,080
Speaker 4: free him, though Pakistan initially bucks and in later conversations

872
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 4: were the kind that you might have at one of

873
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:53,880
Speaker 4: those out of the way cafes that we described ben

874
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:58,040
Speaker 4: where we're exchanging the face down you know, the cocktail,

875
00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:00,640
Speaker 4: napkins or whatever. In that scenari I am from our

876
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 4: first series on diplomatic community, Pakistan and the US do

877
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:09,200
Speaker 4: hatch a deal. It was agreed usually that these two

878
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 4: kids on bikes were ISI agents. In the official US

879
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 4: story of an attempted robbery would prove completely or at

880
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:20,680
Speaker 4: least largely false, but potentially worthy of holding some water.

881
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 2: There was a lot of back and forth. There are

882
01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:27,480
Speaker 2: high level attorneys hanging out in Pakistan on the part

883
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:30,880
Speaker 2: of the US, attempting to negotiate to get this guy

884
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 2: out of the country before charges are laid at his feet.

885
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:37,560
Speaker 2: Before they're you know, officially going to trial for any

886
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 2: of this stuff, before the s hits the f or

887
01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:45,200
Speaker 2: however that works, and.

888
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:51,760
Speaker 3: How does that work? Bett, Have you ever defecated on

889
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 3: a fan?

890
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:56,680
Speaker 2: Well, look, in certain situations that I can think of

891
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:59,160
Speaker 2: in the past, there would be a problem if there

892
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 2: was a fan, like in the vicinity. Maybe. Well, guys,

893
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:11,440
Speaker 2: it really depends on what your diet looks like in

894
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:17,760
Speaker 2: certain you know, bacteria, it's way, yeah, anyway, it's it's

895
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:20,320
Speaker 2: going really bad. But that there's this other thing that

896
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:24,800
Speaker 2: gets floated after the prosecutor gets switched out, which is

897
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:28,080
Speaker 2: an interesting thing that occurs, and it's you can look

898
01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 2: at various news sources, including the New York Times to

899
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:35,040
Speaker 2: see like the strange ways that on the Pakistan side,

900
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 2: the folks who are going to prosecute this person got

901
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:42,160
Speaker 2: switched out and all of a sudden, this new concept arises.

902
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:46,320
Speaker 3: Well, it's an old concept. We have to recognize that

903
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:53,280
Speaker 3: every sovereign nation is entitled to its own judicial system. Pakistan,

904
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:59,800
Speaker 3: being Islamic country, functions largely under Islamic law, which is

905
01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 3: we see and an ancient concept that is considered legal

906
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:09,000
Speaker 3: in this part of the world. Come into play. That

907
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:14,000
Speaker 3: concept is the the closest translation in the West would

908
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 3: be something like blood price compensation for the people that

909
01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:21,280
Speaker 3: you have killed. And this is not unique to Pakistan.

910
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:26,640
Speaker 3: It's not unique to Islam. It may sound strange to

911
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:31,360
Speaker 3: people from the United States, but just because you're from

912
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:36,240
Speaker 3: the US doesn't mean you know you know everything. Well.

913
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:38,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, And just to clarify when I say a new concept,

914
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 2: what I mean is it wasn't being talked about as

915
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:45,360
Speaker 2: an even possibility for this specific case with an American

916
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 2: who has killed two people in Pakistan who were Pakistani.

917
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:52,760
Speaker 3: It's it's introduced.

918
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:56,240
Speaker 2: Yes, it gets introduced as the prosecutors switch out.

919
01:02:57,320 --> 01:03:02,880
Speaker 3: So the United States pays something around two point four

920
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:07,520
Speaker 3: million USD under Islamic law, they pay this blood price.

921
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:10,960
Speaker 3: And so it comes to pass that on March sixteenth,

922
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:19,240
Speaker 3: twenty eleven, Pakistan's judicial system acquits Raymond Allen Davis of

923
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:23,680
Speaker 3: every charge of any charges. And they were really gonna

924
01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:27,360
Speaker 3: jam this guy up for multiple things like even uto

925
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:32,440
Speaker 3: traffic violations like you're driving a car with a broken windshield,

926
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:36,720
Speaker 3: screw you man, like all of this stuff. They wanted

927
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 3: to put him under the jail. But this price comes

928
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:44,640
Speaker 3: in he catches the next plane out of the country secretly.

929
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, well as does as do well. Yeah, and he

930
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:54,120
Speaker 2: has to Afghanistan by the way to get to the US.

931
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:58,439
Speaker 2: But the families that receive the blood money, the three

932
01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:02,000
Speaker 2: different families, they are all secreted away as well.

933
01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 3: Yes, and Pakistan Pakistani politicians lose their careers over this.

934
01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:16,240
Speaker 3: Multiple Some people are saying, no, this is stinky, you know,

935
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:19,400
Speaker 3: this is s hits the f and I don't like it,

936
01:04:19,720 --> 01:04:23,760
Speaker 3: and I don't like what it says about geopolitics. Boom,

937
01:04:23,920 --> 01:04:27,160
Speaker 3: they get sacked. Other people say, eh, yeah, you know

938
01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:30,320
Speaker 3: this is good. You gotta make it work. They get sacked.

939
01:04:31,080 --> 01:04:35,480
Speaker 4: This is a absolute crisis for diplomacy Monty Python levels

940
01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:36,960
Speaker 4: of sackings taking place.

941
01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:41,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, sacks all the way down. Man, it's sacking fifth Avenue.

942
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:44,640
Speaker 4: Then, No, exactly, And like you said, Ben, at this point,

943
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:49,760
Speaker 4: I mean, it's so stinky and sacky that the president

944
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:52,160
Speaker 4: himself actually is forced to respond.

945
01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:53,280
Speaker 5: There's no way around it.

946
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:58,000
Speaker 4: This is potentially blowing up into an outright diplomatic crisis.

947
01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:04,320
Speaker 2: Yep, solutely. Let's also remember that this is now in

948
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 2: February of twenty eleven. All of this is going down

949
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:12,480
Speaker 2: where even the United States President is getting involved.

950
01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:16,760
Speaker 3: Right, So February is when it goes up to Potus

951
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:22,600
Speaker 3: and Congress. Right March is when Raymond Allen Davis becomes

952
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:28,040
Speaker 3: free and has to escape. But look for anybody in

953
01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:29,880
Speaker 3: the audience, and I'm sure there are a few of

954
01:05:29,960 --> 01:05:35,720
Speaker 3: us and have adventures. Be safe. You know well that

955
01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:41,040
Speaker 3: any time the president has to go in public and

956
01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:45,480
Speaker 3: say some stuff to respond, like to respond to an incident,

957
01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:49,320
Speaker 3: you're in trouble. You know what I mean. It's like

958
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:53,919
Speaker 3: being a second grader and you hear the announcements at

959
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:59,400
Speaker 3: school and the principal gets on the mic and says, also,

960
01:06:00,520 --> 01:06:03,120
Speaker 3: I want to have a quick word about Noel Brown

961
01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:08,640
Speaker 3: or Dak Frederick right to the office, right right, right.

962
01:06:08,840 --> 01:06:12,600
Speaker 3: There were some incidents at the neighboring high school, at

963
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:17,560
Speaker 3: the neighboring elementary schools. It's just a bad look all around.

964
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:21,000
Speaker 3: And we the public will never know what got discussed

965
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:22,280
Speaker 3: in those back rooms.

966
01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:26,640
Speaker 2: No, no, we will not. We won't know the full

967
01:06:26,680 --> 01:06:29,920
Speaker 2: story because it was really fishy, something weird was going on.

968
01:06:31,160 --> 01:06:36,840
Speaker 2: What happened two months later? Anybody remember what happened two

969
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:37,480
Speaker 2: months later?

970
01:06:37,720 --> 01:06:37,880
Speaker 3: You know?

971
01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:45,800
Speaker 2: Bottabad no comment? Uh, the world's most wanted man was

972
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:51,040
Speaker 2: assassinated in a compound where there were stealth helicopters used.

973
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:52,400
Speaker 3: No comment.

974
01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:55,680
Speaker 2: Where the CIA had been operating for Oh, I don't know,

975
01:06:56,040 --> 01:06:58,880
Speaker 2: months and months and months trying to track down Osama

976
01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:00,840
Speaker 2: bin laden via vaccinations.

977
01:07:00,920 --> 01:07:07,720
Speaker 3: No comment. M Oh my gosh, that sounded sketchy. Yeah, right, fine, No,

978
01:07:07,880 --> 01:07:11,640
Speaker 3: you're right, Matt, as as usual, you are absolutely correct.

979
01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:15,680
Speaker 3: There are always a larger pieces at play. Yeah, and

980
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:20,080
Speaker 3: you're right. What we can say is that Raymond Davis

981
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:24,320
Speaker 3: is not some kind of super villain. He's not some doctor. No,

982
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:27,800
Speaker 3: he's not some kind of James Bond. By his own account,

983
01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:31,920
Speaker 3: he will deny you know, this double O seven appellation,

984
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:36,720
Speaker 3: that Appalachian appellation that people put on him. He's a

985
01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:42,160
Speaker 3: kid from Wise County, Virginia. In his perspective, he's serving

986
01:07:42,200 --> 01:07:47,920
Speaker 3: his country. He never never imagined that he might be

987
01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:54,040
Speaker 3: the individual triggering such extreme events. But to know your

988
01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:59,040
Speaker 3: earlier point about powder kegs right and boiling water, it's

989
01:07:59,040 --> 01:08:01,840
Speaker 3: fair to ask if something like this would have happened

990
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:07,720
Speaker 3: inevitably right, Because the entire time this is happening, factions

991
01:08:07,760 --> 01:08:13,520
Speaker 3: of an ISI know exactly where obl is it's just irrefutable.

992
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:18,080
Speaker 2: Yep. It was a delicate little game that was being played.

993
01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:24,240
Speaker 2: Like everybody knows that, like to some extent, all sides

994
01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:29,240
Speaker 2: know that there are Americans operating beneath the consulate or

995
01:08:29,280 --> 01:08:32,759
Speaker 2: for the consulate or for the embassy who are inside

996
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:35,920
Speaker 2: the country searching for this person, and they have been

997
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:37,840
Speaker 2: for almost ten years.

998
01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:40,120
Speaker 3: And like check his watch.

999
01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:43,400
Speaker 2: I'm just saying it. It's known. Everybody is just aware

1000
01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:47,559
Speaker 2: that this is happening, right, because it's it's if you

1001
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 2: thought it wasn't happening, you know, you're being naive on

1002
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:52,280
Speaker 2: those levels.

1003
01:08:53,080 --> 01:08:55,920
Speaker 3: We're here for the museums, you know what I mean.

1004
01:08:56,400 --> 01:09:01,000
Speaker 3: We're big fans of architecture and we like to see

1005
01:09:01,040 --> 01:09:04,840
Speaker 3: out of the way architecture. I'm sorry, officer, I did

1006
01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:05,240
Speaker 3: not know.

1007
01:09:05,720 --> 01:09:09,640
Speaker 2: I could not do that well exactly. But the Americans

1008
01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:13,240
Speaker 2: who are operating in Pakistan know that the intelligence services

1009
01:09:13,280 --> 01:09:16,519
Speaker 2: there are keeping an eye on them. So and if

1010
01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:20,360
Speaker 2: they believe, like they had around this time, that they

1011
01:09:20,360 --> 01:09:23,880
Speaker 2: had located the correct compound where Osama bin Laden was hiding,

1012
01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:28,360
Speaker 2: you have to that side is pretending like they don't know, right,

1013
01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:32,000
Speaker 2: and then the other side is trying to figure out

1014
01:09:32,040 --> 01:09:36,200
Speaker 2: what each other knows. It's just it gets so complicated.

1015
01:09:36,400 --> 01:09:41,040
Speaker 3: It's a weird, toxic relationship often with these countries, allies

1016
01:09:41,080 --> 01:09:45,120
Speaker 3: and enemies alike. To this very evening, we're gonna hear

1017
01:09:45,320 --> 01:09:49,040
Speaker 3: multiple differing accounts of what is called the Raymond Allen

1018
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:53,480
Speaker 3: Davis incident in the West to our friends in Pakistan

1019
01:09:54,320 --> 01:09:58,600
Speaker 3: and points abroad. It's a harrowing parable about how no

1020
01:09:58,880 --> 01:10:04,479
Speaker 3: country should or trust the United States. This country, the

1021
01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:09,120
Speaker 3: US has a terrible reputation right now for sort of

1022
01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:14,519
Speaker 3: moving with the wind and the whims, which people don't like.

1023
01:10:14,840 --> 01:10:17,240
Speaker 3: I get it. You would you know, you crack a

1024
01:10:17,280 --> 01:10:22,439
Speaker 3: deal with one person who is supposedly in charge of

1025
01:10:22,439 --> 01:10:26,679
Speaker 3: the country. Four years later there's another person and they say, ah,

1026
01:10:26,840 --> 01:10:30,720
Speaker 3: forget that other guy. Here's my weird thing. How do

1027
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:33,559
Speaker 3: you feel about how the civics And then you have

1028
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:36,320
Speaker 3: to be like, I guess this is cool for four years.

1029
01:10:36,640 --> 01:10:40,960
Speaker 3: But to the United States, this is a moral play.

1030
01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:43,960
Speaker 3: This is the argument that if you send someone in,

1031
01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:48,360
Speaker 3: you may damn sure you get them back, and ideally

1032
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:52,120
Speaker 3: you keep that invisible. This is a case where the

1033
01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:53,719
Speaker 3: conspiracy was revealed.

1034
01:10:54,360 --> 01:10:57,320
Speaker 2: Yeah it was. I didn't realize you guys that the

1035
01:10:57,479 --> 01:11:03,040
Speaker 2: Guardian newspaper is the out that officially stated out loud

1036
01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:06,679
Speaker 2: that Raymond Davis was employed by the CIA.

1037
01:11:07,280 --> 01:11:09,439
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, they were first to the post on it.

1038
01:11:09,800 --> 01:11:13,960
Speaker 2: That was February twentieth, twenty eleven, so like well after

1039
01:11:14,080 --> 01:11:18,479
Speaker 2: the incident, and while while he's incarcerated, while all of

1040
01:11:18,479 --> 01:11:20,120
Speaker 2: the kerfuffle is beginning.

1041
01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:24,400
Speaker 3: Forces potus to respond, Yeah, the media pushed it, and

1042
01:11:24,479 --> 01:11:28,400
Speaker 3: the bag of Badgers is a parent. Neither Pakistan nor

1043
01:11:28,479 --> 01:11:32,280
Speaker 3: the US right now have come to a public agreement

1044
01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:37,679
Speaker 3: on this matter. Instead, both nations found an approachable stance. Right,

1045
01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:43,559
Speaker 3: we made correct with Islamic law. Right, so satisfying domestic

1046
01:11:43,640 --> 01:11:48,839
Speaker 3: population of Pakistan, if not the families of those people

1047
01:11:49,160 --> 01:11:55,400
Speaker 3: who were murdered. Honestly, the US individual got home safe.

1048
01:11:55,520 --> 01:11:59,640
Speaker 3: The US individual, wols I should say, because let's not

1049
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:05,160
Speaker 3: forget Davis was not out there as a rogue lone wolf.

1050
01:12:05,880 --> 01:12:10,280
Speaker 3: They got back. Doesn't always happen. Sorry, that's how the

1051
01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:14,720
Speaker 3: sausage is made. The CIA and the ISI, they reset

1052
01:12:14,760 --> 01:12:18,840
Speaker 3: their chessboard once again, and they look towards the horizon,

1053
01:12:19,720 --> 01:12:24,839
Speaker 3: and the great game continues. As we wrap up tonight's episode,

1054
01:12:25,920 --> 01:12:28,120
Speaker 3: we went a little long, but thank you so much

1055
01:12:28,160 --> 01:12:29,560
Speaker 3: for tuning in, folks.

1056
01:12:29,800 --> 01:12:33,280
Speaker 2: M Yeah, there's more to the stuff that we were

1057
01:12:33,320 --> 01:12:35,639
Speaker 2: even able to cover, And this is a longer episode

1058
01:12:35,680 --> 01:12:38,200
Speaker 2: than we usually do on a single topic. But guys,

1059
01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:41,240
Speaker 2: look into this even further if you're interested in the

1060
01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:43,679
Speaker 2: ins and outs and some of the details and stuff.

1061
01:12:44,479 --> 01:12:47,160
Speaker 2: Just to recommend one source, you know, Ben, You've got

1062
01:12:47,200 --> 01:12:49,840
Speaker 2: the you can tell everybody the book that was actually

1063
01:12:49,880 --> 01:12:54,040
Speaker 2: written by Raven Davis. There's a pretty long New York

1064
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:58,040
Speaker 2: Magazine article from twenty thirteen titled How a spy helped

1065
01:12:58,080 --> 01:13:01,519
Speaker 2: turn Pakistan against the United States. It's a pretty long read,

1066
01:13:01,600 --> 01:13:03,759
Speaker 2: but if you can gain access to that, we highly

1067
01:13:03,760 --> 01:13:04,360
Speaker 2: recommend it.

1068
01:13:04,960 --> 01:13:11,080
Speaker 3: We highly recommend mister Davis's words himself, the contractor, how

1069
01:13:11,120 --> 01:13:16,760
Speaker 3: I landed in a Pakistani prison and ignited a diplomatic crisis,

1070
01:13:16,800 --> 01:13:21,320
Speaker 3: and I don't want to lose what we set there previously. Again,

1071
01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:27,040
Speaker 3: the CIA, the ISI soldier on to continue. They reset

1072
01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:31,840
Speaker 3: the chessboard. They are looking toward a horizon, and the

1073
01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:37,479
Speaker 3: great game never stopped. It continues tonight. You can learn more,

1074
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:40,760
Speaker 3: As Matt said, you can talk to us. Well, I

1075
01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:43,920
Speaker 3: know some of us are in the audience tonight. Who

1076
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:49,200
Speaker 3: might be tourists you know, might be contractors at eshays,

1077
01:13:50,080 --> 01:13:53,200
Speaker 3: people who are fans of photographing museums.

1078
01:13:53,560 --> 01:13:56,120
Speaker 2: Your name right now is favorite tourist Ben.

1079
01:13:56,880 --> 01:14:02,479
Speaker 3: Oh, that's a gift from some friends of the show. Uh,

1080
01:14:02,640 --> 01:14:05,840
Speaker 3: speaking of You can find us online. We'd love to

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01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:08,000
Speaker 3: hear your thoughts. You can call us on the telephone.

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01:14:08,040 --> 01:14:10,880
Speaker 3: You can send us a good old fashioned email. Where

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01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:12,799
Speaker 3: do people sip the social meds?

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01:14:12,880 --> 01:14:17,840
Speaker 4: Nope, you can sip to your heart's content at the

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01:14:17,880 --> 01:14:20,720
Speaker 4: handle Conspiracy Stuff where we exist on Facebook with our

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01:14:20,720 --> 01:14:23,880
Speaker 4: Facebook group. Here's where it gets crazy on YouTube or

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01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:26,799
Speaker 4: we have just so many videos for you to enjoy

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01:14:27,120 --> 01:14:31,600
Speaker 4: on x as well fka Twitter and on Instagram and TikTok.

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01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:34,000
Speaker 4: We are Conspiracy Stuff Show.

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01:14:34,479 --> 01:14:37,280
Speaker 2: You can also call us at our number seven three

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01:14:37,520 --> 01:14:41,240
Speaker 2: four eight two six two three. Oh wait, that's the

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01:14:41,280 --> 01:14:44,280
Speaker 2: Office of Public Affairs for the Central Intelligence Agency. Don't

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01:14:44,280 --> 01:14:49,000
Speaker 2: call that one. Call one night three three std WYTK.

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01:14:49,360 --> 01:14:52,759
Speaker 2: When you call in, you'll get a little familiar sound

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01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:56,000
Speaker 2: in your ear, a little music and Ben Bowlin and

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01:14:56,040 --> 01:14:58,000
Speaker 2: he'll let you know that you've got three minutes on

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01:14:58,040 --> 01:15:01,160
Speaker 2: a voicemail. Give yourself a cool nick and let us

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01:15:01,200 --> 01:15:02,680
Speaker 2: know in the message. If we can use your name

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01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:05,320
Speaker 2: and message on the air, and if you want to

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01:15:05,360 --> 01:15:08,680
Speaker 2: write to us with your words, why not send us

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01:15:08,680 --> 01:15:09,160
Speaker 2: an email.

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01:15:09,280 --> 01:15:12,920
Speaker 3: We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence

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01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:16,599
Speaker 3: we receive. Be well aware, yet's unafraid. Sometimes the void

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01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:19,720
Speaker 3: writes back. Funny, isn't it how a bunch of very

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Speaker 3: small and subtle decisions, when added together, can end up

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01:15:23,120 --> 01:15:28,959
Speaker 3: having such enormous consequences. That's a line from Raymond alan Davis.

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Speaker 3: We'd love to hear your favorite quotations as well conspiracy

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01:15:33,080 --> 01:15:53,040
Speaker 3: at iHeartRadio dot com.

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Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production

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Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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01:16:00,040 --> 01:16:02,880
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.