WEBVTT - Airbus on Ambitions for Zero Emissions Flight

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, I'm Dana Perkins and you're listening to Bloomberg Switched

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<v Speaker 1>on the b n F podcast. Now. You might have

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<v Speaker 1>noticed that over the last couple of weeks we've put

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<v Speaker 1>out a few podcasts that deviate from our typical format.

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<v Speaker 1>Instead of interviewing bienn F analysts, we've interviewed some prominent

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<v Speaker 1>external voices that participated in our recently held BANEF London Summit.

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<v Speaker 1>We currently have six of these summits worldwide and they

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<v Speaker 1>convene leaders in energy industry, transport, technology, finance and government.

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<v Speaker 1>My colleague Brianny Collins, who's a part of BANFS editorial team,

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<v Speaker 1>had the opportunity to interview Glenn Leewlin and he's a

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<v Speaker 1>general manager and the electrification chief Technology Officer at air Bus.

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<v Speaker 1>So maybe you think zero emissions air travel is the

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<v Speaker 1>substance of dreams or something far off in the future

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<v Speaker 1>that only the Jetsons would have. Well, today's interview with

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<v Speaker 1>Glenn might convince you that it's all coming sooner than

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<v Speaker 1>you think, just one decade away. In the twenty etees

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<v Speaker 1>quick reminder to everybody that does not provide investment or

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<v Speaker 1>strategy advice, and we have a more complete disclaimer that

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<v Speaker 1>will play at the end of today's show, But for

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<v Speaker 1>right now, let's hear Briany's interview with Glenn Louivin. Hi. Glenn,

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<v Speaker 1>thanks very much for joining us today. So ab US

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<v Speaker 1>is Europe's largest supplier of commercial and military aircraft, so

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<v Speaker 1>you must have a great outlook into the various technologies

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<v Speaker 1>available to reduce emissions from flight. As things stand, how

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<v Speaker 1>do you see the pathway to zero emissions flight panning out?

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<v Speaker 1>On the one September we revealed three concept aircraft which

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<v Speaker 1>really explain our ambition to bring a zero emission airliner

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<v Speaker 1>to commercial service by twenty We have a few steps

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<v Speaker 1>to take before we get there. First, we have some

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<v Speaker 1>technology which we need to develop, we have some flight

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<v Speaker 1>demonstration to do, and we plan to have achieved all

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<v Speaker 1>of that by in the same time frame. We need

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<v Speaker 1>also to be working with partners inside the industry and

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<v Speaker 1>also outside the industry, like energy suppliers, hydrogen supply companies,

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<v Speaker 1>airports developing the hydrogen infrastructure, the hydrogen ecosystem in order

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<v Speaker 1>to prepare for hydrogen to be available for the zero

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<v Speaker 1>emission aircraft in the twenty thirties timeframe. That's really interesting

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<v Speaker 1>thank you very much. So do you see fully electric

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<v Speaker 1>flight being viable for commercial aircraft or other options such

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<v Speaker 1>as hydrogen or hybrid electric more realistic. I think fully

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<v Speaker 1>electric battery flight is very appropriate for small aircraft for

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<v Speaker 1>general aviation, for two to four seed vertical takeoff and

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<v Speaker 1>landing applications, So helicopters are helicopter replacements. So definitely batteries

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<v Speaker 1>and fully electric architectures around batteries have their place in aviation.

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<v Speaker 1>As soon as we start to go to larger aircraft,

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<v Speaker 1>we see hybrid electric starting to be interesting. And if

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<v Speaker 1>we really think about having zero emission large commercial aircraft,

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<v Speaker 1>we really need to change the energy carrier to something

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<v Speaker 1>much lighter than than batteries, and this is where hydrogen

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<v Speaker 1>starts to get interesting. Hydrogen is also interesting because it's

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<v Speaker 1>essentially a surrogate for renewable energy on board the aircraft.

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<v Speaker 1>So there's increasing talk about green hydrogen generated from renewable energy.

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<v Speaker 1>But what needs to happen in the hydrogen value chain

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<v Speaker 1>to make this possible to use on board large aircraft

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<v Speaker 1>in the future. So we see already massive increases in

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<v Speaker 1>the amount of renewable energy that we're producing across the world.

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<v Speaker 1>For example, wind energy production has multiplied by two over

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<v Speaker 1>the last five years, Solar energy production has multiplied by

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<v Speaker 1>four over the last five years. For sure, in absolute terms,

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<v Speaker 1>it's not enough yet we needed to continue progressing in

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<v Speaker 1>that same direction. We can see the growth going exponential,

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<v Speaker 1>we can see the costs coming down and making sure

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<v Speaker 1>that they compete with alternative ways of producing energy, but

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<v Speaker 1>that for sure needs to continue. At the same time,

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<v Speaker 1>we need hydrogen to be produced using that renewable energy,

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<v Speaker 1>and there are several industries who are interested in in

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<v Speaker 1>using hydrogen to allow them to meet the Paris Agreement.

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<v Speaker 1>Aviation is one, the trucking industry is another. Maritime is

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<v Speaker 1>also interested in it, and we need to to to

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<v Speaker 1>see that scale up over the next few years in

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<v Speaker 1>order for the cost of hydrogen to come down to

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<v Speaker 1>the levels that we need for it to be appropriate

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<v Speaker 1>for aviation. Then we need also with the work we're

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<v Speaker 1>doing with the airport to be preparing for the hydrogen

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<v Speaker 1>to come to airports and for aircraft to be able

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<v Speaker 1>to be refueled with hydrogen in the twenty thirties. So

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<v Speaker 1>that will require quite a lot of collaboration with airports

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<v Speaker 1>to be able to to ensure that the hydrogen can

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<v Speaker 1>be can be refueled in a safe manner at airports.

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<v Speaker 1>Is that correct? For sure? The whole topic requires a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of collaboration outside of the aviation industry with the airports,

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<v Speaker 1>around the detailed infrastructure at the airports, with energy companies

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<v Speaker 1>looking at the infrastructure to get the hydrogen from its

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<v Speaker 1>production site to the airport, and with the renewable energy sector,

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<v Speaker 1>because we need part of the renewable energy that's that's

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<v Speaker 1>got to be planned and that eventually needs to be

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<v Speaker 1>produced for the aviation industry. So will this require quite

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of government support in the form of subsidies

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<v Speaker 1>to try and reduce the cost of producing hydrogen from

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<v Speaker 1>renewable energy in order to make it economic for the

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<v Speaker 1>aviation sector to use the renewable energy and hydrogen economy

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<v Speaker 1>for sure needs to be supported. It's probably likely that

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<v Speaker 1>over the next ten years it's not going to be

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<v Speaker 1>more economic than perhaps the fossil fuel equivalent, and like

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<v Speaker 1>what we've seen in the renewable energy sector up until now,

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<v Speaker 1>certainly support incentives to build the scale and then with

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<v Speaker 1>the scale the cost starts to come down. That that

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<v Speaker 1>government support that those incentives are definitely required over the

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<v Speaker 1>next ten years, but you do see it as viable

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<v Speaker 1>that we actually get zero emission aircraft in the sky

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<v Speaker 1>by the mid thirties, for sure. This is a very

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<v Speaker 1>clear target. We've said ourselves. There are a number of

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<v Speaker 1>independent institutes that of mapped out how hydrogen cost can

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<v Speaker 1>come down over the next decades. We see a thirty

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<v Speaker 1>percent reduction in renewable hydrogen cost in twenty compared to

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<v Speaker 1>where it is today. We see a fifty percent reduction

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<v Speaker 1>in hydrogen cost by twenty fifty. They're exactly the kind

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<v Speaker 1>of cost figures that are interesting for us because it

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<v Speaker 1>makes zero emission aviation commercially viable in the excellent that's

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<v Speaker 1>so exciting. I know that hydrogen has is less energy

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<v Speaker 1>dense by a long way compared to fossil fuel, going

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<v Speaker 1>to make the aircraft too bulky to fly if you

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<v Speaker 1>need to have a lot of hydrogen on board. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>so hydrogen has a lot more energy in it per

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<v Speaker 1>unit weight, but it has a lot less energy and

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<v Speaker 1>a per unit of volume. So you're you're exactly right.

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<v Speaker 1>It uses a lot more volume than than kerosene, in fact,

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<v Speaker 1>four times more. So we have to change the aircraft

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<v Speaker 1>configuration somewhat in order to adapted to that new energy carrier.

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<v Speaker 1>In the concepts that we revealed on the twenty one September,

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<v Speaker 1>we see that some concepts have a longer fuselage because

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<v Speaker 1>we put the tanks behind the cabin in the very

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<v Speaker 1>rare part of the aircraft, and that requires a longer fuselage.

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<v Speaker 1>Other concepts that we're looking at include the flying wings

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<v Speaker 1>of the blended wing body aircraft, and this is a

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<v Speaker 1>concept which by definition has more volume inside it, and

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<v Speaker 1>that lends itself really to to using hydrogen on board

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<v Speaker 1>and could be the ultimate high performance hydrogen aircraft in

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<v Speaker 1>the future. That sounds really exciting. So does that mean

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<v Speaker 1>that in future the whole kind of shape and design

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<v Speaker 1>of the way we see airplanes today could actually change?

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<v Speaker 1>For sure. I think what we have seen over the

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<v Speaker 1>last decades are incredible improvements in performance. We've had an

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<v Speaker 1>eight cent reduction in CEO two emissions, for example per

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<v Speaker 1>passenger kilometer since the beginning of commercial aviation. That's incredible,

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<v Speaker 1>and now that's our starting point for probably the next

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<v Speaker 1>stage and disruption to bring the emissions of the aircraft

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<v Speaker 1>down to zero in terms of fully electric flight. You

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned at the beginning that this might be best suited

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<v Speaker 1>to short urban routes, and you've got a vertical takeoff

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<v Speaker 1>and landing project going on, so could you tell us

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit more about that, and also where you

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<v Speaker 1>see the subject of autonomy going our autonomous electric aircraft,

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<v Speaker 1>will they be of benefit in the future as well.

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<v Speaker 1>We have over a hundred flight tests completed of fully

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<v Speaker 1>electric vertical takeoff and landing aircraft. We're not just interested

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<v Speaker 1>in bringing let's say zero emission technology to large scale

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<v Speaker 1>commercial aviation, which is for sure an ambition, but we're

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<v Speaker 1>also interested in bringing those technologies to the complete product line,

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<v Speaker 1>including helicopters and vertical takeoff and landing. And we've got

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<v Speaker 1>one demonstrator completed with over a hundred flights that we

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<v Speaker 1>developed in the United States. We have another program which

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<v Speaker 1>is currently underway and which is currently undergoing flight testing

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<v Speaker 1>in the south of Germany. It's called City Airbus. And

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<v Speaker 1>both of those concepts are quite different if you look

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<v Speaker 1>at them from outside. There is one which looks like

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<v Speaker 1>a multi rotor. It's got several blades on the top

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<v Speaker 1>of the vehicle and it's got no wings. The other

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<v Speaker 1>concept that we call the Hannah is a tilt wing aircraft,

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<v Speaker 1>so the wings actually tilt in order to transition from

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<v Speaker 1>vertical takeoff and ending into forward flight. Those two different

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<v Speaker 1>approaches are then going to be combined in what we

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<v Speaker 1>ultimately bring to market in that in that sector. So

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<v Speaker 1>it's it's an extremely exciting space. Lots going on in

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<v Speaker 1>that area, and for sure that market segment is adapted

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<v Speaker 1>well adapted to battery fully electric technology. So what kind

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<v Speaker 1>of application do you see those aircraft being used for?

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<v Speaker 1>Would it be like on demand city transport. Yes, that's

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<v Speaker 1>definitely an application where those aircraft are extremely relevant. You

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<v Speaker 1>could imagine, for example, in some cities where it takes

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<v Speaker 1>a long time via ground transportation to go from an

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<v Speaker 1>airport to a city center. In some cities it can

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<v Speaker 1>be a one hour or even two our journey. With

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<v Speaker 1>this kind of aircraft, that trip could be done in

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<v Speaker 1>fifteen minutes, and because of the electrical propulsion systems on board,

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<v Speaker 1>the cost starts to even be competitive with the ground

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<v Speaker 1>transportation equivalent. So it's it's really a way to potentially

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<v Speaker 1>bring low cost, high speed alternative to ground transportation for

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<v Speaker 1>certain cities. That's really interesting. I look forward to that,

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<v Speaker 1>So when do you see that technology becoming cost competitive

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<v Speaker 1>in the future for cities. So the urban air mobility

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<v Speaker 1>market segment and the aircraft that we are developing for it,

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<v Speaker 1>we expect to be at maturation around the middle or

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<v Speaker 1>second half of this current decade. So what we're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about is in the next five to ten years, really

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<v Speaker 1>seeing these aircraft flying around and carrying people great. I

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<v Speaker 1>know that several companies are developing concepts for electroc flight,

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<v Speaker 1>including Boeing and Uber, So is it an industry race

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<v Speaker 1>to see who can get there first? I think there's

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<v Speaker 1>a real need for the complete industry to reduce its

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<v Speaker 1>climate impact. I think Airbus has certainly positioned itself in

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<v Speaker 1>a leadership position when it comes to that challenge, whether

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<v Speaker 1>we talk about urban air mobility and and smaller vehicles

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<v Speaker 1>are now with the zero E project large commercial aircraft.

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<v Speaker 1>I would encourage any player, whether it's startups or larger players,

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<v Speaker 1>to join us on this adventure, to even collaborate on

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<v Speaker 1>eliminating aviations climate impact. Aviation is an incredible service to society,

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<v Speaker 1>connecting us in physical ways which are not otherwise possible.

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<v Speaker 1>But we have to recognize that there is a climate

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<v Speaker 1>impact associated and we need to bring that climate impact

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<v Speaker 1>down to zero. That's a really good point. So you

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<v Speaker 1>see quite a lot of opportunity for collaboration among industry

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<v Speaker 1>participants on reaching their emissions technology and flight sure. Sure,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think it's an opportunity for everybody to play

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<v Speaker 1>a role in meeting the Paris Agreement and eliminating the

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<v Speaker 1>climate impact of aviation. What are your thoughts on autonomous flight,

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<v Speaker 1>particularly for these shorts urban trips made by for the

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<v Speaker 1>electric aircraft. Yeah, autonomy is definitely a very relevant technology

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<v Speaker 1>for aviation. It can bring the cost down even further

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<v Speaker 1>if these aircraft don't require a pilot on board. It's

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<v Speaker 1>a topic which will be dealt with in a very

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<v Speaker 1>step by step manner, where we will see initially perhaps

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<v Speaker 1>single pilot on board instead of sometimes two pilots, will

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<v Speaker 1>see remotely piloted aircraft as a second step, and then

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<v Speaker 1>we'll see potentially full autonomy much later. It's it's definitely

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<v Speaker 1>a huge opportunity, but it will be dealt with in

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<v Speaker 1>discrete steps to in sure that we achieve all of

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<v Speaker 1>the safety and operational objective switch we need to while

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<v Speaker 1>implementing that technology. That's a very good point. Well, thank

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<v Speaker 1>you so much for speaking with us today, Gland. It's

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<v Speaker 1>really great to hear more about a US as path

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<v Speaker 1>to zero emissions technology. Thank you, my pleasure, Thanks for

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<v Speaker 1>your interest. Today's episode of Switched On was edited by

0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:32.960
<v Speaker 1>Rex Warner of Grace Stoak Media. Bloombergini app is a

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<v Speaker 1>service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP and its affiliates. This

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<v Speaker 1>recording does not constitute, nor it should it be construed,

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<v Speaker 1>as investment advice, investment recommendations, or a recommendation as to

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<v Speaker 1>an investment or other strategy. Bloomberg An EPP should not

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<v Speaker 1>be considered as information sufficient upon which to base an

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<v Speaker 1>investment decision. Neither Bloomberg Finance LP nor any of its

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<v Speaker 1>affiliates makes any representation or warranty as to the accuracy

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<v Speaker 1>or completeness of the information contained in this recording, and

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<v Speaker 1>any liability as a result of his recording. Ditis President