1 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: We've come a very long way together this season. Roald 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: Dahl has gone through a lot, and when you look 3 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: back at all of our episodes, all the different stages 4 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: of Doll's life, a pattern does begin to emerge. I 5 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: think Doll's entire life, like for so many of us, 6 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: was about a search for who he really was and 7 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: where he belonged, And when you really think about it, 8 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: that may also be the key to understanding his work. 9 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: Matilda is entirely about her search for identity. The same 10 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: could be said about Charlie, and about James and Sophie 11 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: and so many of the others, And what they all 12 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:34,919 Speaker 1: seem to figure out by stories end is that their 13 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: true selves come to fruition not from conforming to other 14 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: people's expectations, but from embracing the thing that makes them unique, which, 15 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: as we've heard, is also exactly what Dahl discovered in 16 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: his own life. But it took him trying on all 17 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,839 Speaker 1: these different masks, all these different personas in order to 18 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: get there. He was the ambitious young businessman with Shelwayal, 19 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: the courageous fighter pilot in the war, a playboy spy 20 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: in DC in New York, a disgruntled screen ride in 21 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: la an urbane sophisticated author publishing in The New Yorker, 22 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: and finally, the world famous children's author who championed the 23 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: underdog and weaponized mischief while espousing views that could have 24 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 1: made him an antagonist in one of his own stories 25 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: for my hard podcast Imagine Entertainment and Parallax, I'm Aaron 26 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 1: Tracy and This is the Secret World of Roald Dahl 27 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: Episode ten. So were each of these stages necessary in 28 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 1: Doll's evolution? Certainly they all contributed to him living one 29 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: of the biggest, noisiest lives of his century. But I 30 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: guess what I'm trying to figure out is if that's 31 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 1: necessary or even advantageous for a writer. I want to 32 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: bring in Jesse Stern on this question. Jesse is maybe 33 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: the best TV writer I've ever worked with, and he 34 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: is a knack for writing these massive global hits like 35 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: the CBS show NCIS or the video game Call of 36 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: Duty Modern Warfare. He's also spent the last year studying 37 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: Hemingway in South authors of Dollars Generation for a project 38 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: that he's writing. I asked Jesse about the importance to 39 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: these writers of going out experiencing the world and having 40 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: big adventures. By the way, it's a theme Jesse very 41 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: much incorporates into his own life. While I'm sitting in 42 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 1: my bathrobe at home in Brooklyn right now, I caught 43 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: up with Jesse where he's living these days in Santa 44 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 1: Eulalia in the north of Ibiza. 45 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,679 Speaker 2: It's not so much to me the adventure as it 46 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 2: is you know, you have to get some discomfort, you 47 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 2: have to get into the unknown. It becomes really easy 48 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:36,399 Speaker 2: to convince yourself that you have enough exposure. 49 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: To the universe already. 50 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,239 Speaker 2: And I think it's crucial to find the balance between 51 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 2: those two things, exploring outer space and exploring inner space. 52 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 2: I got so fascinated between the relationship between Hemingway and J. D. Salacher, 53 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 2: two guys who definitely saw the world and one decided 54 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 2: I had enough of it and I'm going to spend 55 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 2: the rest of my life in a bunker in my 56 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 2: yard exploring the in their reach of in my own mind, 57 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 2: and another who basically spent every day fishing, voting, fighting, hundating, bucking, 58 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 2: if you could. You know, when you get into a 59 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 2: new environment, you get into a place you've never been before. 60 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 2: It exposes all these different sides about the experiences that 61 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 2: you've had. It shows you all these things that you've 62 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 2: been taking for granted. It shows you things that you 63 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,359 Speaker 2: thought were load bearing and essential that oh, there's other 64 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 2: ways of doing that, there's other ways of being. And 65 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 2: also it pushes you to expand your own consciousness of 66 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 2: what you're capable of, and in that what anybody is 67 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 2: capable of. And I think that that brought in is 68 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 2: not just the imagination, but your sense of empathy, because 69 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 2: when you read these stories of great heroes or great 70 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 2: leaders or great adventurers throughout time, there's a certain aspect 71 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 2: to it that feels impossible, that feels like, how did 72 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 2: they do that? And when you have just a little 73 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 2: bit of exposure to process the process of climbing a mountain, 74 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 2: even if it's not the biggest mountain, you start to 75 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 2: learn a little bit about what it takes to go up, 76 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 2: what it takes to keep going up, what it feels 77 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 2: like to get to the top, and the experience of 78 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 2: coming down. And you get to find a way that 79 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 2: you can relate a little bit more to kind of 80 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 2: impossible historical figures, and it helps you, I think, to 81 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 2: get into the mindset of what human beings are capable. 82 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 1: Of and how. 83 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 2: They do it one step at a time, even in 84 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: the most incredible achievements. I think in Dahl's situation, there's 85 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 2: an aspect of necessity. He's not just pursuing adventures. These 86 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 2: are things that were essential. Becoming a pilot, joining RIF, 87 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,919 Speaker 2: fighting in the war, it was essential. There was really 88 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 2: not much in the way of choice given to a 89 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 2: twenty four year old man in England in nineteen forty. 90 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 2: You had to It was a matter of survival, which 91 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 2: makes it even more infuriating that he can't find some 92 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 2: form of empathy with the Israelis. I guess he just 93 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 2: doesn't acknowledge that that place also spokes for its survival, 94 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 2: you know. And then talking about the invention for his 95 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 2: son again, I was out of necessity, was something he just, 96 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 2: you know, aside of the one day to become a 97 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 2: medical inventor. Thomas Jefferson was the same way, you know, 98 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 2: you would just find solutions, creative solutions to challenges that 99 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,359 Speaker 2: surrounded him, whether it was building his own violin, or 100 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 2: designing bocket doors and monticello, or writing pretty decent documents. 101 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: We're going to come back to Jesse But first I 102 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: want to talk a little bit about where and how 103 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 1: Dall wrote his own pretty decent documents, because they're the 104 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: only reason we care at all about the adventures All had. Right, 105 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 1: Dall's writing process is completely fascinating to me. How did 106 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: a guy who was used to flying aerial battles in 107 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: the war and playing spy games in DC, how did 108 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: that same guy find the ability to sit quietly in 109 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: a room for years on end and produce mountains of writing. 110 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 1: Here's Dahl in a random house video the Author's I 111 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: from nineteen eighty eight, two years before his death. He 112 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: gives maybe the best analogy for the writing process that 113 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 1: I've ever heard. 114 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 3: When you're writing, it's rather like going on a very 115 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 3: long walk across valleys and mountains and things, and you 116 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 3: get the first view of what you see and you 117 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 3: write it down. Then you walk a bit further, maybe 118 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 3: up onto the top of a hill, and you look 119 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 3: down and you see something else, and you write that, 120 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 3: and you go on like that day after day, getting 121 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 3: different views of the same landscape rarely, and the highest 122 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 3: mountain on the walk is obviously the end of the book, 123 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 3: because it's got to be the best view of all 124 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 3: when everything comes together and you can look back and 125 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 3: see everything you've done and it. 126 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: All ties up. 127 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 3: But it's a very very long, slow process. 128 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: How great is that it really gives an labots bird 129 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: by bird to run for its money in terms of 130 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: finding the poetry in the act of writing. The writing 131 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: life is clearly a subject Doll thinks about a lot. 132 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: Many of his most celebrated books are sort of extended 133 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: metaphors for what it means to be a writer, like 134 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: my favorite of Doll's adult works, The Wonderful Story of 135 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: Henry Sugar, which we talked about last episode. That story 136 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: is maybe the most revealing mirror Doll ever held up 137 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: to his life as a writer. On the surface, it's 138 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: about a wealthy narcissist who discovers a way to literally 139 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: see through the backs of playing cards using meditation techniques. 140 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: But strip away the magical realism, and it's about a 141 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: man who locks himself away day after day, year after year, 142 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: pursuing a single skill with monastic devotion, just like Dahl 143 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: did with his writing. Learning to see through playing cards 144 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: is just a more dramatically interesting version of learning to 145 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: write well, and the practice completely changes Henry Sugar it 146 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: makes him a more generous, more enlightened, better man, which 147 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: I think is probably what Dahl hope the writing life 148 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: would do for him. One Stall decided to devote his 149 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: life to his craft in his late forties, his routine, 150 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: like Henry Sugars, became one of almost religious ritual. Here's 151 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: Don his first memoir, Boy discussing the challenges of choosing 152 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: life as a writer. Recreating his voice as we did 153 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: in previous episodes. 154 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 4: The life of a writer is absolute hell compared with 155 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 4: the life of a business man. The writer has to 156 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 4: force himself to work. He has to make his own hours, 157 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 4: and if he doesn't go to his desk at all, 158 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 4: there is nobody to scold him. If he is a 159 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 4: writer of fiction, he lives in a world of fear. 160 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 4: Each new day demands new ideas, and he can never 161 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 4: be sure whether he's going to come up with them 162 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 4: or not. Two hours of writing fiction leaves this particular 163 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:45,199 Speaker 4: writer absolutely drained. For those two hours, he has been 164 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,439 Speaker 4: miles away. He has been somewhere else, in a different place, 165 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 4: with totally different people, and the effort of swimming back 166 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 4: into the normal surroundings is very great. It is almost 167 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 4: a shock. The writer walks out of his workroom in 168 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 4: a daze. He wants a drink, needs it. It happens 169 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 4: to be a fact that nearly every writer of fiction 170 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 4: in the world drinks more whisky than is good for him. 171 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 4: He does it to give himself faith, hope, and encourage. 172 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 4: A person is a fool to become a writer. His 173 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 4: only compensation is absolute freedom. He has no master except 174 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 4: his own soul, and that I'm sure is why he 175 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 4: does it. 176 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,199 Speaker 1: I love that Doll manages to make the active writing 177 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: alone in a room just as brutal, terrifying and filled 178 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: with adventure as his life in Africa with shel Oyle, 179 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: or as a fighter pilot or as a spy. But 180 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: it's all worth it because of the freedom it offers. 181 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: So let's talk more about Doll's particular active writing. If 182 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: you ask fifty different authors about their process, you'll get 183 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: fifty different answers. I really can't get enough of this stuff. 184 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,839 Speaker 1: Tony Gilroy, who wrote Michael Clayton and more recently created 185 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 1: the Star Wars series and Or, talks about initially setting 186 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: up his writing office so his chair faced outside, but 187 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: it soon felt like his ideas were flying out the window. 188 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 1: He had to rearrange the furniture. Here's Dahl and thrill 189 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 1: Maker interviewed by Peter Wallace speaking about his own office. 190 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 3: Then at ten thirty, I fill a thermos with hot 191 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 3: coffee and take a mug in my hand and walk 192 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 3: up to my work hut, which is away from the house, 193 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 3: up in the apple orchard, about one hundred and fifty 194 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 3: meters from the house. 195 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: Could that sound any more idyllic? A writing hut in 196 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: an apple orchard a separate studio is actually pretty common 197 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: among well to do writers. Doll's hut was model dumb 198 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: when built for the poet Dylan Thomas. Playwright Arthur Miller 199 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: wrote a lot in Brooklyn Heights, but also escaped to 200 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: a sparse, little seven by ten foot hut on his 201 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: property in Connecticut. No decoration, no distractions. The novelist Philip 202 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: Roth also built himself a hut and constructed it with 203 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: a standing lecturing like desk so he could confront his 204 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 1: characters on his feet, eye to eye. Virginia Wolf built 205 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: a small guarden lodge in Sussex, her famous Room of 206 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 1: One's Own. Tony Morrison transformed a boat house on the 207 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: Hudson River in which to do her writing. As I 208 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: record this, I'm in my house in Brooklyn, two doors 209 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 1: down from the Brownstone where Norman Mailer wrote his most 210 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: famous books. Mailer didn't exactly have a hut, but he 211 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 1: renovated the top floor of his house his office to 212 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: look and feel exactly like a ship with a long 213 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: hull and slanted, windowed ceilings, which is as crazy looking 214 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: as you're imagining. Apparently, Mailer was afraid of water, and 215 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: working all day in what felt like a boat forced 216 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: him to confront his fears, which I guess he found 217 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: helpful in his writing. John Cheever, the tortured check off 218 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: of the Suburbs, created maybe the most surreal office and 219 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: morning commute of any writer I can think of. Every day, 220 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: Cheever would put on a suit and tie as if 221 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: heading to Wall Street. He'd exit his apartment, take the 222 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: elevator down with the other commuters heading to work, but 223 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: he'd continued past the lobby to the basement of his building. 224 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: He'd unlock a small storage room, stripped down to his 225 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: underpand and write all day surrounded by pipes and electrical boxes. 226 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 1: When he was done, he get dressed and go back 227 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: upstairs like I said, every writer does something unique. Here's 228 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 1: Doll again from thrill Maker, on his setup inside his 229 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: writing studio. 230 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 3: And I go into this splendid room, which I really 231 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 3: enjoy because it's so comfortable as an armchair. I don't 232 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 3: sit up at a desk. I lie back in an 233 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 3: arm chair, and I put my feet up on a 234 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 3: trunk which I filled with wood to make it hard. 235 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 3: And the trunk is tied to the legs as a 236 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 3: chair with bits of wires so that I can put 237 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 3: my feet on the trunk like that and push and 238 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 3: it won't go away. 239 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: And writing can be so scary. Laying back with your 240 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: feet up helps you relax. Stephen Sondheim, the greatest writer 241 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: of musical theater, wrote while fully laying down on his 242 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: couch with a drink in his hand. David Milch, the 243 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: brilliant creator of dead Wood and other TV shows, would 244 00:12:57,600 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: lay with his back flat on the floor in his 245 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: trailer and dictate all of his scripts to an assistant. 246 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: Here's more of Dahl with Peter Wallace on Thrillmaker. 247 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 3: And So I get up there and I get really comfortable, 248 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:11,959 Speaker 3: and I take a writing board which I've made myself, 249 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,719 Speaker 3: and I put it on the arms of the armchair, 250 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 3: and underneath it I put it a roll of thick paper, 251 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 3: so the writing board slopes exactly where I want it. 252 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 3: And I have six pencils and I shop in them, 253 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 3: and I pull myself a coffee, and I feel very comfortable. 254 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: Whenever possible, Doll wouldn't go back into the main house 255 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: during his writing sessions. If someone in the house needed him, 256 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,079 Speaker 1: they would flash a lamp from a switch in the nursery. 257 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: One flash meant someone was asking for him, and two 258 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: flashes meant an emergency. The only time the lights had 259 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: ever flashed twice was the day Olivia died. According to 260 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: writer Barry Ferrell. All of this elaborate setup, of course, 261 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: is in service of trying to get lost in his writing, 262 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: which is the goal of pretty much every writer to 263 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: lose time to get into a flow stake. Dahl also 264 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: used music to try to get there. Here he is 265 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: on the long running British radio show Desert Island Discs 266 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 1: from nineteen seventy nine. 267 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 3: I never used to start writing in the morning before 268 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 3: putting on some very great music, like a Beethoven quartete, 269 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 3: and sit and listen to it in the hopes that 270 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 3: some of this greatness would rub off on me, and 271 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 3: that I would write there. As a matter of fact, 272 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 3: it helped quite a lot, because it is impossible, after 273 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 3: listening to great music to write absolute rubbish. 274 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: The other most important decision for a writer is how 275 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: long a stretch to write for. According to Barry Ferrell, again, 276 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: Dall rarely ever worked in the evening. Dall's ideal schedule 277 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: was a session from ten am to noon in the morning, 278 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: and another from three to six in the afternoon, two 279 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: good stints with a solid break in between. Here's doll 280 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: again on the author's eye. 281 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 3: The great thing, of course, is never to work for 282 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 3: too long at a stretch, because after about two hours 283 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 3: you are not at your highest peak of concentration, so 284 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 3: you have to stop. 285 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: When I was trying to break in as a writer, 286 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: I would write all day bankers hours, But over time 287 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: you realize so many of those hours are just wasted. 288 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: My favorite thinker on this subject is Oliver Berkman. In 289 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: his essay on the three or four hours rule for 290 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: getting creative work done, he writes, you almost certainly can't 291 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: consistently do the kind of work that demands serious mental 292 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: focus for more than about three or four hours a day. 293 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: He continues, quote, it's positively spooky how frequently this three 294 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: to four hour range crops up. It accounts of the 295 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: habits of the famously creative Charles Darwin at work on 296 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: the theory of evolution, toiled for two ninety minute periods 297 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: and one one hour period per day. Thomas Jefferson, Charles Dickens, 298 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: Virginia woolf Ingmar Bergmann, and many more all basically followed suit. 299 00:15:57,880 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: The lesson here is to ring fence three or four 300 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: hours of undisturbed focus. Ideally when your energy levels are highest. 301 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: Just focus on protecting four hours and don't worry if 302 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: the rest of the day is characterized by the usual 303 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: scattered chaos, Berkman explains, And you will be shocked at 304 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: how much you get done if you just consistently put 305 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: in three to four hours a day, which is precisely 306 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: what Doll always did. Let's turn out to what Doll's 307 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: elaborately thought out writing process actually led to. I want 308 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: to speak to someone who can talk a little more 309 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: specifically about the books, because that's Doll's legacy right. As 310 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: fascinating as Doll's life was, as successful as the film 311 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: and TV adaptations have been and as much ink has 312 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: been spilled on the charges of anti semitism. If people 313 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: are still thinking about Roll Doll one hundred years from now, 314 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: it will be because of the books. 315 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 5: Well, my name is Mark West. I'm an English professor 316 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 5: at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, and my 317 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 5: specialty as children's literature, young adult literature, and the history 318 00:16:59,000 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 5: of childhood. 319 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: Mark is one of the world's experts on this subject. 320 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: I asked him to start off by talking a little 321 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,719 Speaker 1: bit about how exactly Dahl changed the landscape of children's literature. 322 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,360 Speaker 5: But when he came on the scene as a children's 323 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 5: author in nineteen sixty one, children's books during that nineteen 324 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 5: fifties time period in before tended to be books that 325 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:24,360 Speaker 5: authors try to make sure were quote unquote good for children. 326 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 5: They had a, if not a moral message, they were 327 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 5: upstanding in a way. One of the things that Roald 328 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 5: Dall brought to the whole children's literature scene was he 329 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 5: was trying to write children's books that appealed to children's 330 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 5: sense of humor and the way they look at things, 331 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,120 Speaker 5: which is somewhat different from the way in which adults 332 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 5: look at things. He was not interested in being preachy. 333 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 5: There's nothing moralistic or diagactic about his books. But his 334 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,399 Speaker 5: sense of humor that runs through so many of his 335 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 5: children's books is the kind of humor that children have, 336 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 5: but the kind of humor that some adults find off putting. 337 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:09,360 Speaker 5: They find it a little crude in a way. Sometimes 338 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 5: he's accused of breaking taboos in some ways, playing into 339 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 5: the things that kids find funny, such as things that 340 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 5: are kind of gross in a way. There's a real 341 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,479 Speaker 5: odd discrepancy in the world of children's literature. A lot 342 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 5: of the award winning children's books aren't books that adults like, 343 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 5: but kids sometimes don't like as much. Conversely, a lot 344 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 5: of the books that are really best selling books that 345 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 5: kids love are not sometimes the books that adults love. 346 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 5: Adults like kids books for somewhat different reasons than kids do. 347 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 5: Adults that like to read children's books, and there are lots, 348 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 5: including me, look for books that kind of bring them 349 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 5: back to that sense of nostalgia the childhood in the 350 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 5: sense the sense of the good old days. But kids 351 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 5: don't look at the world that ways, are never nostalgic 352 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 5: about childhood. They're always ready to kind of push the 353 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 5: envelope a little bit. One of the things that Roll 354 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 5: Dahl did in his books is he kind of played 355 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 5: up this slightly adversarial relationship between kids and adults. 356 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 1: Creating adversarial relationships is, of course a major theme in 357 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 1: Doll's personal life too. Mark actually got to spend some 358 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: time with Doll not long before Doll's death. He asked 359 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: all about paving the way for the explosion of children's 360 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: lit that came in his wake. 361 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 5: One of the things that he said to me when 362 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 5: we were talking about writing for kids is he said, well, 363 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 5: the kids sometimes see adults as the enemy. And by 364 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 5: that he meant that he thought that in some ways 365 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 5: kids think of adults as these big people, powerful people 366 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 5: who are trying to civilize them. But in some ways 367 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 5: kids don't want to be civilized. In some ways that 368 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 5: famous line from Sigmund Freud's Civilization is discontent, Well, in 369 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 5: some ways kids are part of that discontense business. In 370 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 5: some ways kids are reluctant to be civilized, and you 371 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 5: see that play out in children's sense of humor. So 372 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 5: when Doll became successful, first with James and the Giant 373 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 5: Peach and then Charlie in the Chocolate Factory and then 374 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 5: the other books that came after that. He kind of 375 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 5: opened up the door for other children's authors to write 376 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 5: children's books that really appealed to children's tastes rather than 377 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 5: the tastes of adults. 378 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 1: But of course, very few other children's authors ever achieved 379 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 1: anything close to Doll's commercial or critical success. When The 380 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 1: Guardian came out with this list of the one hundred 381 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: best novels ever, not children's novels, just novels, Dolls the 382 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: BFG came in at number eighty eight, only a little 383 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: bit behind classics by sal Bello and Gabriel Garcia Marquez. 384 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 1: I asked Mark how dolls work evolved over time, and 385 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: especially how his characters changed. 386 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 5: You'll see a progression, and one of the things that 387 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 5: I think is interesting about that progression is you'll see 388 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 5: child characters, the central characters, getting more and more agency. 389 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 5: So in the very first children's books like James and 390 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 5: the Giant Peach and Charlie in the Chocolate Factory, you 391 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 5: have really imaginative situations, a very clever writing, but the 392 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 5: central characters, they're kind of passive. Things happen to them, 393 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 5: Things happen to James. Things happen to Charlie, and they're 394 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 5: good kids, but they're not really taking a lot of 395 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 5: action in the context of their plots. But as you 396 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 5: work your way up ending up with Matilda, Matilda has 397 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 5: so much agency in some ways. Matilda actually has more 398 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 5: power in terms of her interactions with adult characters than 399 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 5: the adults do. She outwits the adults, She outwits the 400 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 5: teacher who runs the school. She is much more clever 401 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 5: than her parents. Even though her parents think of themselves 402 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 5: as being very smart and whatnot, Matilda is much smarter 403 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 5: than they are. So that was something that I think 404 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 5: Roll Dall showed that children's books can have characters where 405 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 5: the kids really make a difference, where they have agency, 406 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 5: where they can make decisions that matter, or they can 407 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 5: outwin adults, and that way, I think he's sort of 408 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 5: similar to Mark Twain. There's a lot of connections between 409 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 5: Mark Twain and Roll Dahal in my opinion, but I 410 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 5: think that for Roaldahl, he showed us child characters that 411 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,159 Speaker 5: you can root for and then make a difference, and 412 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 5: you see that actually plant stuff out in another really 413 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 5: popular series that I think has connections to Roll Dall, 414 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 5: and that is the Harry Potter series where Harry and 415 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 5: Harmiami and the other kids in Harry Potter books happen. 416 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 5: In some ways more agency are able to do things 417 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 5: that the adults are not able to do. In some ways, 418 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 5: the kids are able to solve problems that the powerful, 419 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 5: gifted adults around them are not able to solve. So 420 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 5: in some ways the agent and see that you see 421 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,880 Speaker 5: with the character like Harry Potter, I think goes back 422 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 5: to some of the characters that you would see in 423 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 5: some of the Roll Dall's children's books. 424 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: Mark and I also talked about the charges of bigotry 425 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: against Dall and what some have described as Doll's volatile personality. 426 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: Markson's Doll was equally volatile in his work. 427 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,399 Speaker 5: If he can't like what he wrote, he oftentimes have 428 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 5: just burn it, I mean literally burn it. He had 429 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 5: this little spot outside of his garden shed, which is 430 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 5: made out of stone, where he would ritualistically burn it 431 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 5: so that he couldn't be tempted to go back and 432 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 5: try that that's it. No, this doesn't pass my test. 433 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: We'll got to burn it. 434 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 5: He was a very theatrical, over the top sort of 435 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 5: person and I think in some ways, when people look 436 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 5: at roll Doll on some of the things that he said, 437 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 5: they don't really understand that he was in some ways 438 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 5: a very over the top sort of person, a person 439 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 5: who would say things that might be considered certainly offensive, 440 00:23:57,800 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 5: but he didn't always believe what he said. He loved 441 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 5: to get a rise out of you. He was that 442 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 5: kind of curmudgeon that really, we don't have room in 443 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 5: our society so much today for that kind of colorful curmudgeon. 444 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 5: But in terms of what he was trying to provide 445 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 5: for children, I think he was very sincere about that. 446 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 5: I think he wanted to provide kids with books that 447 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 5: they would like to read, books that would appeal to 448 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 5: their tastes, and books that would in some ways provide 449 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 5: them with examples of kids who cope with difficult situations 450 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 5: but come out on top on some level. And you 451 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 5: see that in almost all of his children's books. I 452 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 5: think in some ways people don't really understand that side 453 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 5: of Roldall. Somebody who's kind of a curmudgeon sometimes say 454 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 5: things and know they will get a rise out of you. 455 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,239 Speaker 5: He kind of enjoyed doing that. Some people say, oh, 456 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 5: roll Doll was an sob. Some people say, oh, Roll 457 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 5: Dall was the most gracious person you could ever imagine. Well, 458 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 5: in fact, he was both of those things. But you 459 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 5: can pick out a quotation here or quotation there to 460 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 5: prove whatever case you want to. But in some ways 461 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,959 Speaker 5: he was. It's just a very complex person and an 462 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 5: interesting person. So I'm very grateful that he took the 463 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 5: time out to talk to me and introduce me to 464 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 5: his family and buy me many drinks. 465 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 1: Doll's complexity is mirrored in the complex characters he created, 466 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: especially in his adult fiction. Jesse Stern is a big 467 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: old fan of Dolls books for adults, especially dolls nineteen 468 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 1: seventy nine novel My Uncle Oswald. I asked Jesse to 469 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: tell us. 470 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 2: Why there was such a sense of discovery when you 471 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 2: realize that the guy and the same guy who's been 472 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 2: writing all these children's books that you love also wrote 473 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 2: adult books, especially when you're a teenager or pre teenager 474 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:39,679 Speaker 2: or whatever I was. And I think I was at 475 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 2: summer camp when I found my uncle Oswalt. Right, so 476 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 2: you're just starting to read books that have sex, and 477 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 2: it feels like, you know when you're getting away with something, 478 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 2: like you're doing something that's forbidden. It kind of blew 479 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 2: my mind that the same person could do both of 480 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 2: these things. 481 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:56,399 Speaker 1: There was definitely a. 482 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 2: Time in the development of my own brain where that 483 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 2: was incomprehensible. How does you know one guy produce these 484 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 2: completely different worlds, while with the guy who's trying to 485 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 2: make me laugh and smile and feel all these warm feelings, 486 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 2: you know, also one scare the crap out of me? 487 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 2: Or why does this guy want to tell these dirty stories? 488 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 2: It definitely learned my mind. My Uncle Asphalt, I just 489 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 2: loved the story. I loved how it was presented. You know, 490 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,680 Speaker 2: there's this whole introduction to My Uncle Asphalt where Oswald 491 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 2: has died and he's left behind this massive trove of 492 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 2: his journals, which are so scandalous that it would bring 493 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 2: down multiple governments if they were ever released to the public, 494 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 2: and his surviving nephew, who's been bequeathed these stories, is 495 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 2: sifting through them, and this is the only one he's 496 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 2: found that is actually readable, and it's still so salacious 497 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,120 Speaker 2: and so scandalous, and you won't even believe that it's true. 498 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,360 Speaker 2: I love that presentation, and it's still I still love 499 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 2: that presentation. I love the fantasy of Massy Encyclopedia's worth 500 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,120 Speaker 2: of journals by the end of a lifetime, particularly well 501 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 2: told stories. And then you get into the story of 502 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 2: my Uncle Oswald, and it's just delightfully dirty. It's got 503 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 2: all these aspects that I love to it. You know, 504 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 2: the sky tracing through real history is in Vienna. They 505 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 2: realize that at a certain time in Vienna, and you 506 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 2: can knock off multiple prominent people in history. How to 507 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 2: figure out how to get Sigmund Freud to have sex 508 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 2: with his partner, and how are they going to get 509 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 2: Throost to have sex with her, you know, which can 510 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 2: require dressing her up as a boy. They've got the 511 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 2: scare of beetle that makes men, you know, insatiable, and 512 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 2: they just have to have sex right away. They've basically 513 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 2: invented condom drawing out of their experiences an animal husbandry. 514 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 2: I think they visit, you know, the mating of a 515 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 2: cow and a bull. It's just filthy and hilarious and 516 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 2: it's a good story. You know, it's a sperm feist, 517 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 2: historical sperm feist story. I mean, the idea that this 518 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,679 Speaker 2: guy could do both of those things. It presents an 519 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 2: opportunity for everyone for the reader to Hey, you can 520 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 2: do whatever you want. You can tell whichever stories you want, 521 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 2: and it's really a challenge if you're a creative person 522 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 2: to tell any story well, to make any story successful. 523 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,879 Speaker 2: And once you do, pretty much the response you're going 524 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 2: to get from the world around you is he do 525 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 2: that same thing again. Once you've found a way into 526 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 2: this marketplace, Let's give them exactly the same thing. Maybe 527 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 2: a little bit different, but close enough. Every writer out 528 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 2: there that you know that is successful, the things that 529 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 2: you know of them in terms of their work is 530 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 2: just a small sample of what they're capable of. Any 531 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 2: great writer could write anything. They only have the time 532 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 2: and opportunity, inclination reason to write what they have written. 533 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: One of Doll's adult stories that I love is The 534 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: Great Automatic Grammatizator eighteen fifty three. In the London Review 535 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: of Books, Colin Burrow summarizes the plot. A couple of 536 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: jaded men design a computerized writing machine with the aim 537 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: of cornering the market in magazine short stories. All the 538 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: author has to do is press a button historical, satirical, philosophical, political, romantic, erotic, humorous, 539 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: or straight and choose a style classical, whimsical, racy, Hemingway, Faulkner, Joyce, feminine, etc. 540 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: And the machine will do the rest. Sound familiar. It's 541 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: exactly what's happening today with AI. Every writer today is 542 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: grappling with what to do about the fact that the 543 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: act of writing can now be outsourced to artificial intelligence. 544 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: My writer friends and I are genuinely terrified that the 545 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: skill we've spent our lives working on will be completely 546 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: useless in a few years. And that's exactly what Dahl 547 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: was envisioning in his story, written over seventy years ago. 548 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: Luckily we're not quite there yet, but in a few years, 549 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: it's pretty easy to imagine that you'll be able to 550 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: just open the Newest daybot and say, write me a 551 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: thriller with the ructure of Gillian Flynn, the outrageous characters 552 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 1: of a Phoebe Waller Bridge show, the witty dialogue of 553 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: Billy Wilder, all in the tone of a dark Roll 554 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: Doll story, and in a few seconds it'll pop out 555 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: a story that would have taken me a year or 556 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 1: more to wrestle out. Doll's story is a cautionary tale, 557 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: is the antithesis of what makes his work so memorable, 558 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: namely his incredibly compelling, unique voice that was mined from 559 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: years of adventures. So as we finish up, this feels 560 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: like the moment that I'm supposed to opine on Doll's legacy. Honestly, 561 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 1: the fact that he's still everywhere over thirty five years 562 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 1: after his death is a legacy in itself. I started 563 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: keeping a list of every time Doll or one of 564 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 1: his creations popped up in something random I was watching 565 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: or reading during the months that I made this show. 566 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: The list got too long to keep up with. Once 567 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: you start looking for him, you'll find him everywhere, whether 568 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: it's a song lyric or a politician's speech or a 569 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: TikTok about Matilda that has tens of millions of use. 570 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: Even if you just look for Charlie and the Chocolate 571 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: Factory references, you'd be overwhelmed. A recent obituary I read 572 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: in The New York Times for a pizza maker described 573 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 1: him as the Willy Wonka of cheese. A profile and 574 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: vulture of Jay Leno called the comedian's garage the chocolate factory, 575 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 1: and he's Willy Wonka. Literally. Just this morning, I opened 576 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: an email newsletter that I subscribed to on the Science 577 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: of Happiness that referenced a golden ticket to well being. 578 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: I defy you to find anywhere near the same number 579 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: of references to any other writer, with the possible possible 580 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,959 Speaker 1: exception of Shakespeare. Here's what I think dalls enduring presence 581 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: and culture really means. The stories we tell our kids 582 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: are so powerful, so foundational to who we become, that 583 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: we'll keep them alive no matter what we learn about 584 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: their creator. Doll's creations aren't everywhere, despite his flaws. They're 585 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: everywhere because we've decided his flaws don't matter enough to 586 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: let his stories die. This is a nostalgia. It's an active, 587 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: collective moral decision. We're saying, some art transcends its creator 588 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: so completely that belongs more to us than to them. 589 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: Doll's stories have become part of the architecture of childhood itself. 590 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: Claire Debtter, who we heard from earlier in the season, 591 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: wrote an essay quoting the writer Martha Gellhorn's views on 592 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 1: how some great mid century artists were horrible human beings. 593 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: Gelhorn wrote from experience being married to Ernest Hemingway. She 594 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: was also palased with Dahl and may have been thinking 595 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: about both men when she said she didn't think an 596 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 1: artist needed to be a monster. She thought a monster 597 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: needed to make himself into an artist. Quote. A man 598 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: must be a very great genius to make up for 599 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: being such a loathsome human being. I think there's a 600 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: lot of wisdom in that. But I do wonder if 601 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: Gelhorn was maybe asking the wrong question here. Maybe the 602 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: real question isn't whether or not Dall's genius excuses his cruelty, 603 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: but how his cruelty informed his genius. Who else could 604 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: write so convincingly about the casual evil of adults except 605 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: someone who understood that darkness. Intimately, quoting a favorite European poet, 606 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 1: Dall one said, when I'm dead, I hope it said 607 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: my skins were scarlet, but my books were read. He 608 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: definitely achieved that. Dall was such a legendary, almost mythic 609 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: figure by the end of his life that his death 610 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: was pretty shocking to people. Dahl passed away at seventy 611 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: four from a blood disease. According to writer Nadia Cohen, 612 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: his family gathered round him and played one of his 613 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: favorite pieces of music while a nurse injected a lethal 614 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,719 Speaker 1: dose of morphine. As the needle pricked him, Doll shouted 615 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: an obscenity. It was the last word he ever spoke, 616 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: one last thing before we say abye it. And this 617 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: feels like kind of a perfect metaphor for any biographical work. 618 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: You should know, Roll Dahl is not Roll Dall. What 619 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: I mean is I haven't said his name correctly a 620 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: single time over ten episodes. Even as celebrated as he was, 621 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: Doll remains in many ways a stranger to us. Here's 622 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: Dahl's first wife, Patrusha Neil, from an interview with Arlene 623 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: Herson on the correct pronunciation of her husband's name. 624 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 5: RAI old Rull. I was gonna say, how do you 625 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,800 Speaker 5: real it? Because it's philed r o a A r 626 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 5: r o a l d. 627 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: In the story that was untelling. It's been a giant 628 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 1: pleasure spending this season with you. I hope you've enjoyed 629 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,759 Speaker 1: it even a fraction as much as I have. Now 630 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 1: let's finish the show by hearing from those Dolls most 631 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,239 Speaker 1: wanted to please with his writing. This is from Roll 632 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,359 Speaker 1: Dahl cover to cover, a nineteen eighty nine video where 633 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: Lillly Steiner captured Doll's visit to Melbourne, Australia. 634 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 5: Well, I like because his story is funny, and I 635 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 5: like her long E's books and they're really interesting. I 636 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 5: think he's very interesting after why he presented his books 637 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 5: over seven years old and he from Norway. I don't 638 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,399 Speaker 5: know much about Da, but I know a lot about 639 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 5: his books. 640 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: Oh, he's a terrific writer. 641 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 2: I really like it's writing. 642 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 5: I was really surprised because some people say he's really cantankris, 643 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 5: but he was really nice. He's not made at all. 644 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 5: He makes lots of children happy. 645 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: Oh he's a nice man. 646 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:19,319 Speaker 5: He's a great storyteller. 647 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: To come and say row Dall was a good experience. 648 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: Fooling the Secret World of Roald Dahl is produced by 649 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 1: Imagine Audio and Parallax Studios for iHeart Podcasts. Created and 650 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 1: written by me Aaron Tracy, produced by Matt Schrader, post 651 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: production by wind Hill Studios, with editing, scoring and sound 652 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 1: design by Mark Henry Phillips. Editing by Ryan Seaton, Music 653 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: by a PM. Executive producers Nathan Kloke, Karl Welker, Brian Grazer, 654 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: Ron Howard and Aaron Tracy. Additional voice performances and recreation 655 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: by Mark phillips and eleven laps. If you enjoyed this episode, 656 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: be sure to rate and review The Secret World of 657 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: Role Dall on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 658 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:15,440 Speaker 1: Copyright twenty twenty six Imagine Entertainment, iHeartMedia and Parallax