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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. It's Monday, October sixth, and guess what.

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Speaker 2: We have a stacked night of headlines. Guys, the news

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Speaker 2: has been off the chains today. Before we go any further,

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Speaker 2: I'm Stephanie Lai Decker and i head of KAT Studios,

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Speaker 2: where we make true crime podcasts like The Idaho Massacre

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Speaker 2: Season three out now and in Cells also on iHeart

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Speaker 2: right now, and documentaries and I get to be here

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Speaker 2: every single night with Courtney Armstrong and Body Moven.

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Speaker 3: The band is together.

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Speaker 2: We have a stacked night of headlines tonight and some

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Speaker 2: very special guests.

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Speaker 3: So listen.

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Speaker 2: We haven't really been able to talk about this since Friday,

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Speaker 2: big decision in did he get fifty months behind bars

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Speaker 2: federal prison? So where is still being decided? But you know,

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Speaker 2: time served, et cetera. We're going to unpack that. We

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Speaker 2: have secret Service Sam with us directly.

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Speaker 3: He's been following this case since day one.

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Speaker 2: I have also been following him since day one, really

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Speaker 2: have outside about him a lot I have, I have,

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Speaker 2: And he is here, He's here, he's here. There's so

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Speaker 2: much to discuss there, you know. Top of line though,

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Speaker 2: just worth noting Judge Submarinean he said it best, you know,

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Speaker 2: he had to give this judgment and I quote so

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Speaker 2: he could let abusers and victims alike know that the

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Speaker 2: exploitation and violence against women is met with real accountability.

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Speaker 3: So there's so much to discuss there.

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Speaker 2: Also, you know, on this same note but different, the

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court has declined to hear Gilean Maxwell's you know,

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Speaker 2: plead to get an appeal. Will she get a part in?

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Speaker 2: I guess that's the next big question and a story

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Speaker 2: that we actually can't believe is real, but it is

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Speaker 2: once again in the sex trafficking of it all. I

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Speaker 2: don't know if you guys have been following this very

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Speaker 2: scary story about Howard Rubin. He's a retired New York

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Speaker 2: financier and his assistant, Jennifer Powers. They've also been indicted

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Speaker 2: major sex trafficking ring allegedly allegedly allegedly what is happening

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Speaker 2: in the world, and then later in the show, we

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Speaker 2: have Honor Powell, our producer and the great journalist. He's

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Speaker 2: also pure a KT family. He's also been hard at

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Speaker 2: work working on our podcast in Cells and is going

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Speaker 2: to break down all kinds of scary things on that

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Speaker 2: front as well.

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Speaker 3: So, ladies, that's a nice we're going to start.

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Speaker 4: Did we have to start with Didty again at the

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Speaker 4: beginning because this goes back to Friday and we haven't

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Speaker 4: spoken about it, so just to encapsulate Shawan Diddy Coombs,

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Speaker 4: he was sentenced to fifty months in prison. He was

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Speaker 4: fined five hundred thousand dollars and he has been ordered

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Speaker 4: to serve five years of supervised release for transporting women

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Speaker 4: to engage in prostitutions and this was during his orchestrated

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Speaker 4: freak offs that we've all spoken so much about. And

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Speaker 4: joining us tonight to discuss the latest is journalist and

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Speaker 4: comedian Samson Krupin. He has known to millions online as

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Speaker 4: Secret Service Sam. He is the host of the hit

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Speaker 4: YouTube show Samson's World. He delivers sharp daily commentary celebrity trials,

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Speaker 4: culture and justice, and he has been diligently following the

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Speaker 4: Diddy trial.

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Speaker 3: Welcome Sam, Welcome Sam.

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Speaker 5: Hello, Hello, Thank you guys so much for having me.

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Speaker 2: What a road this must have been. We know that

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Speaker 2: you were just in New York. You're always traveling there

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Speaker 2: to be there at the courthouse. I mean, now that

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Speaker 2: you've had a couple of days to process, what's your

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Speaker 2: immediate takeaway?

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Speaker 5: Well, it was interesting when I was sitting inside the

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Speaker 5: courtroom and we heard them say fifty months. You know,

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Speaker 5: Judge Supermannian was like kind of freaking everybody out because,

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Speaker 5: for I think everybody going into it, Diddy's team thought

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Speaker 5: that he would get time served and maybe walk out

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Speaker 5: of the courtroom that very day. And so when the

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Speaker 5: judge said, we need to make an example of these

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Speaker 5: heinous crimes, and he's like, this is a very serious

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Speaker 5: this crime requires a very serious sentence, and we were like,

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Speaker 5: oh my god, like is he going to go the

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Speaker 5: full twenty? Is he going to go eleven? And then

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Speaker 5: he said the probation had suggested sixty months, and so

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Speaker 5: when he chose fifty months, you know, five years sounded

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Speaker 5: like a lot to everybody in that room. But then

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Speaker 5: once we came out and people started to say, subtract

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Speaker 5: his time served, subtract his free Diddy game seminars that

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Speaker 5: he does that he's only really looking at like a

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Speaker 5: year and a half. And then I don't know if

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Speaker 5: you guys heard today, but Donald Trump just said about

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Speaker 5: well he was talking about just Laine Maxwell. But then

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Speaker 5: he said, yeah, I have a lot of people have

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Speaker 5: asked me for pardons. I call him puff Daddy, and

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Speaker 5: he's asked me for a pardon. So like poff, you know,

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Speaker 5: I know they are hitting up Trump right now to

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Speaker 5: get a part in because they're just.

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Speaker 2: Like, you know, big time by the way it might happen, right,

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Speaker 2: that's a very very reasonable thing.

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Speaker 5: It seemed to be like cos you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but he didn't say no, Like he didn't shut

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Speaker 2: it down either. So just coming off of the moment

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Speaker 2: when we finally have somebody who was standing up for

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Speaker 2: you know, bad behavior, and we can kind of probably

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Speaker 2: talk to nauseum about what the sentencing should have been

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Speaker 2: or what it shouldn't have been. We were all super

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Speaker 2: divided as well. We would have been very unsurprising if

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Speaker 2: he walked to that day for sure. Yeah, so I

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Speaker 2: thought it seemed fairly reasonable. Five years seemed a bit

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Speaker 2: more reasonable, just for that same reason, like somebody needs

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Speaker 2: to make an example. You just heard the headlines for today.

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Speaker 2: It's all we're talking about sex ring after sex ring

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Speaker 2: after sex ring, right, very influential people.

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Speaker 3: And I think that has to be kimbashed.

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Speaker 4: I have to say, and I promise I will not

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Speaker 4: have this be some debate over what the sentencing should

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Speaker 4: have been. One thing really stuck in my craw though,

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Speaker 4: is Judge the Marinian. He said all of things like

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Speaker 4: you said, you know as you read Stephanie, and I'm

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Speaker 4: victim forward and I'm making an example. However, what he

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Speaker 4: had also said before the sentencing was that he was

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Speaker 4: going to use the Federal Sentencing Guidelines of seventy to

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Speaker 4: eighty seven months as the basis for the sentence that

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Speaker 4: he would hand down. So he said that and that

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Speaker 4: Rane represents the judge standard for the case based on

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Speaker 4: the guidelines, so to me, and he's saying all these great,

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Speaker 4: wonderful victim forward things. He went below what he said

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Speaker 4: was going to be his basis.

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Speaker 3: So anyway, I ideo.

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Speaker 5: People were very surprised inside the courtroom because the way

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Speaker 5: he was talking. He's like, we have to make an

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Speaker 5: example out of you. But as he was saying, we

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Speaker 5: need to make an example, we need to send a

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Speaker 5: message to victims that if they come forward that something

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Speaker 5: will be done, justice will be served. And it was

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Speaker 5: kind of a slap on the wrist. It was like

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Speaker 5: all bark and no bite, is how some people felt

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Speaker 5: about the sentence.

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Speaker 6: Yes, today, should Knight said today that this was a

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Speaker 6: win for the Diddy family. Yeah, you know, it was

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Speaker 6: win basically him getting what he got because he'll be

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Speaker 6: home in the year.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. I mean I talked to Brian Steele directly after

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Speaker 5: the trial, Miss west Moreland. She was very sad. Brian

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Speaker 5: Steele was very upset. I said, why, you know, it

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Speaker 5: seems like kind of a win, and he said, have

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Speaker 5: you ever been in federal prison? And I'm like no,

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Speaker 5: And he's like it's a terrible place. He's like, one

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Speaker 5: day in there is one day too many. So I

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Speaker 5: think he really, you know, and he was tearing up.

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Speaker 5: You know, it was surprising. I mean, him and Miss

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Speaker 5: west Moreland inside the courtroom, we're tearing up when they

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Speaker 5: were to the judge about letting him off.

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Speaker 6: Well, he's apparently requesting to go to Fort Dix exactly

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Speaker 6: in Jersey, right, Yeah, which is a low security federal prison.

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Speaker 6: It has no high walls, it doesn't have guards from towers.

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Speaker 6: It has a pretty high population, but they live in

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Speaker 6: like bunks right where there's like four and a five

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Speaker 6: men in a cubby sort of in a like a bunk,

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Speaker 6: like a camp if you form a federal camp.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure that's not like in the park, but there's

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Speaker 2: many other plane the worst camp ever.

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Speaker 3: The worst, but we didn't go there. Scary place. Same. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so he may very well be in New Jersey.

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Speaker 2: And I'm sure there are more severe security places and

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Speaker 2: higher security prisons that he could be sent to.

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Speaker 3: And I guess we'll have to wait and see. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: we're gonna wait and see on that. Sam. Do you

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Speaker 3: think fame ultimately helped or hurt that he in this?

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Speaker 5: I feel like it it definitely helped, because I feel

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Speaker 5: like somebody else if they weren't this famous and whatnot,

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Speaker 5: I don't know if they would have gotten away with

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Speaker 5: the rico, you know, I think having I mean maybe,

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Speaker 5: I don't know. I mean we see black men all

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Speaker 5: the time have the innocent and thrown in jail for years.

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Speaker 5: So if you strip away the fame, especially if you

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Speaker 5: strip away the money, then yeah, of course, but the

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Speaker 5: fact that he had ten million dollars per lawyer, he

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Speaker 5: probably spent about one hundred million dollars on lawyers. I mean,

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Speaker 5: it's not surprising he got off. But yes, I think

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Speaker 5: fame played a very big part in it, especially for

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Speaker 5: the jury, you know, because nobody wants to you know,

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Speaker 5: you don't want to hate your hero, you know, And

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Speaker 5: so I think him being famous, where even when I

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Speaker 5: was inside the courtroom, you know, and you'd see that

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Speaker 5: terrible video of him and Cassie, you somehow have sympathy

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Speaker 5: for it because he looks pathetic. He's like he would

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Speaker 5: come in and give us hard emojisus safe. Yeah, and

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Speaker 5: you actually you feel sorry for him a little bit.

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Speaker 5: But then you have to mind yourself, like he put

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Speaker 5: himself here, you know, a he.

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Speaker 4: Put himself there, and listen, I was not in person,

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Speaker 4: and humanity comes out of all of us when we're

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Speaker 4: ne're human, So this is easy for me to say.

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Speaker 3: Also, the guy can put on a pretty good face.

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Speaker 4: I mean, the Bible seemed overkill for his gray headed character,

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Speaker 4: dressing up like mister Rogers, like it was just there was.

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Speaker 3: So much put behind it.

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Speaker 4: But listen, the result was good and it evoked what

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Speaker 4: it was supposed to do, so I guess, you know,

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Speaker 4: job well done.

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Speaker 3: Defense.

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Speaker 2: Do you think the video that he presented, which is

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Speaker 2: incredibly unusual most you know, defendants don't get to have

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Speaker 2: a video that's highly edited and produced submitted to the

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Speaker 2: judge prior to sentencing, which was a real love letter

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Speaker 2: to himself.

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Speaker 3: Yes, candidly, do you think that helped? Did that hurt?

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Speaker 3: I found it to be a bit of a turn off.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think at that point it was a bit

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Speaker 5: of a turn off. I mean, could you imagine during

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Speaker 5: the oj trial if he was allowed to play like

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Speaker 5: highlight reel of him scoring touchdowns and him and the

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Speaker 5: naked gun and the juice and we love him in

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Speaker 5: his commercial hurts getting a car? Yeah, hurts. I mean

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Speaker 5: it's crazy. I personally felt that each of his lawyers spoke,

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Speaker 5: and I'm a comedian, so I kind of was just

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Speaker 5: feeling out the room and I'm like, everybody's going too long.

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Speaker 5: Like Jason Driscoll did great. He cited some cases where

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Speaker 5: it said the minimum sentencing for comparable things were like

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Speaker 5: fourteen to seventeen months, so he outlined out he shouldn't

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Speaker 5: get along sentence. He should have time served. Then Miss

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Speaker 5: west Moreland came up spoke about how he inspired her.

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Speaker 5: She starts crying. To be honest, it was red in

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Speaker 5: the room as a little bit. Oh wow, she's crying.

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Speaker 5: It's a little much. Some the feeling was. And then

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Speaker 5: the kids came up and they each spoke. And when

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Speaker 5: the twins started speaking, the twin girls, oh my god,

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Speaker 5: it was heartbreaking because they were like, we lost mother. Please, Judge,

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Speaker 5: don't take our father away from us. And there wasn't

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Speaker 5: a dry eye in the courtroom, I mean, and it

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Speaker 5: really pulled at you. And then they played the eleven

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Speaker 5: minute video, which I'm an editor. It was like a

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Speaker 5: wedding video. It should have been cut down to like

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Speaker 5: three minutes. I'm surprised they let them play it. And

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Speaker 5: then all the other lawyers went up and spoke. So

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Speaker 5: it was just like kicking a dead horse where I

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Speaker 5: feel like and they're like, Judge, can can can the

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Speaker 5: pastor now come up and say and Judge, we do

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Speaker 5: have somebody who an inmate on the phone who is

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Speaker 5: willing to get on speaker. And the judge I think

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Speaker 5: I think in his head he's like, guys, I already

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Speaker 5: know how long I'm going to sentence him to This

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Speaker 5: is not if anything, the kids, I feel like broke

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Speaker 5: through to him where there was a moment where he's like, Wow,

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Speaker 5: this is impactful. But past the kids, they were just

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Speaker 5: kicking a dead horse in my opinion.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, those kids do break my heart,

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Speaker 2: you know, they really do. They didn't ask for any

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Speaker 2: of them. I mean they're so fullnout. He has many kids,

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Speaker 2: and yeah, they went their father back and I can

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Speaker 2: really appreciate that, but again, it doesn't change the crime

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Speaker 2: or what he's been accused of. Has also been really

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Speaker 2: hard to come back from. And what's the middle ground

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Speaker 2: and how do we prevent this from happening again.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And I talked to Dana, to the mother of

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Speaker 5: the two year old love, and that was especially sad.

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Speaker 5: I was talking her outside the court building and you know,

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Speaker 5: her daughter is in that video saying Daddy, I love you,

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Speaker 5: and and she was just crying outside the court building

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Speaker 5: because it's you know, like you said, it's one thing

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Speaker 5: when we're not in the courtroom, you know, it doesn't

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Speaker 5: seem real, but when you know, you see a mother

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Speaker 5: who's like her daughter really is asking when dad is

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Speaker 5: coming home, you know, a two year old. It's heartbreaking,

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Speaker 5: you know. And again he put himself there. It's not

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Speaker 5: like he was probably Dad of the year there every

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Speaker 5: single night. But there are real people involved, and that's something.

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Speaker 5: Being inside the courtroom I think I really came to

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Speaker 5: understand more.

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Speaker 4: So, Yeah, I mean it really is interesting. I mean

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Speaker 4: it is specific being in the courtroom. I'll definitely agree,

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Speaker 4: and you do just get it's such different feels on

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Speaker 4: different sides and everyone, like you said, they're all real people, which.

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Speaker 6: Even the defendants right there, absolutely right.

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Speaker 5: Even the witnesses. There's so much being said about them,

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Speaker 5: but to actually hear their voice and their emotion is

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Speaker 5: way different.

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Speaker 6: Right While this is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm

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Speaker 6: Boddy Movin and I'm here with Stephanie Lydecker and Courty Armstrong,

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Speaker 6: and we are joined by journalists and comedians Samson Krupin's

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Speaker 6: secret service Sam as he's known, Keep it right here.

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Speaker 6: We're going to continue this conversation when we return or

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Speaker 6: give us a call. Eighty eight thirty one Crime.

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Speaker 3: Keep it right here.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Lidecker here with

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Speaker 2: Courtney armst Wrong and body move in as always, full

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Speaker 2: moon everyone. I hope wherever you are that the moon

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Speaker 2: is bright because we also have secret Service Sam, who

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Speaker 2: has been doing some very diligent reporting outside the courthouse

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Speaker 2: and inside the court room throughout this Diddy fiasco, and

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Speaker 2: we were just talking about the fact that he was

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Speaker 2: given fifteen months. We'd love to hear from you what

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Speaker 2: your thoughts are. Join us eight eight eight three one crime.

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Speaker 2: You could always leave us a talk back as well.

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Speaker 2: Download the iHeartRadio app and then just push the little

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Speaker 2: microphone icon in the top right hand button. So listen, Sam,

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Speaker 2: what do you make of next steps? You know, where

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Speaker 2: is he going to go? He's probably not going to

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Speaker 2: serve that that much time. But will he be on

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Speaker 2: his best behavior? Do you have any prediction?

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Speaker 3: Fuel?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think will be on his best behavior. I mean,

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Speaker 5: they just announced he's going to Fort Dix. Like we said,

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Speaker 5: in terms of federal prisons, it sounds pretty easy, you know,

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Speaker 5: like they were talking about inside the courtroom, Diddy is

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Speaker 5: a big mark. You know a lot of people it's

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Speaker 5: like to get him or to beat him up, or

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Speaker 5: to shank him or to literally get his backside. You know,

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Speaker 5: there is a prize out for that, so I believe

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Speaker 5: he will have good behavior. You know, I think he

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Speaker 5: from what I saw, and like we said, it's hard

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Speaker 5: to tell how much of an act it could be.

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Speaker 5: The mister Rogers sweaters all this, but you know, he

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Speaker 5: seems pretty miserable. I'm guessing a guy going from living

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Speaker 5: the high life on Star Island to living the low life,

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Speaker 5: he would do anything to get out of there. My

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Speaker 5: guess is his team is working very diligently to see

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Speaker 5: how much is it going to cost for a presidential pardon,

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Speaker 5: because I wouldn't be surprised now that he's been sentenced

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Speaker 5: to see Donald Trump pardon him. You know, I know

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Speaker 5: Diddy said some things he didn't like about him during

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Speaker 5: the campaign, but money will race all of that for

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Speaker 5: Donald Trump, I believe.

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Speaker 2: And it is how he having left. How is that possible?

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Speaker 2: I feel like, did he have spent so much money?

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Speaker 2: How does he have that much money?

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Speaker 5: I don't know. And he got fined half a million

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Speaker 5: dollars for the two counts of prostitution. I don't know.

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Speaker 5: You know, I feel like he's still his plane he's

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Speaker 5: renting out, Like, I feel like he still has all

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Speaker 5: of his businesses of kind of move. I mean, they

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Speaker 5: were saying his businesses have been destroyed, but I feel

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Speaker 5: like he's a guy. Like he had that his water

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Speaker 5: company with Mark Wahlberg. I don't know how much all

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Speaker 5: that is still going, but I feel like he was

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Speaker 5: so invested in so many different places he's gotta still have,

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Speaker 5: you know, I think all his money is like in

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Speaker 5: somebody else's name.

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Speaker 4: And bad Boy Records is huge, Sean John, that is huge.

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Speaker 4: The clothes fragrances Sarah is a best seller.

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Speaker 5: Yes, sar Rock's still going, is it really? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to say, Sean John such a

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Speaker 2: big clothing line anymore?

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure.

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Speaker 2: But regardless, you know, we're talking about so many payoffs

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Speaker 2: that have happened throughout the years now, all of the

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Speaker 2: legal bills that have happened, all the payoffs from there.

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Speaker 2: You know, Yes, I don't even know what the going

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Speaker 2: rate is for a presidential pardon.

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Speaker 3: Canst be a lot.

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Speaker 6: Newsweek is reporting, though, that he did officially ask Trump

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Speaker 6: for a pardon as of four minutes ago.

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Speaker 2: You're kidding this justin this is breaking news and evolving stories.

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Speaker 6: We did he request New Jersey prison transfer as Trump

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Speaker 6: confirms pardon.

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Speaker 5: For I don't know, I mean, who knows it could

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Speaker 5: have happened this week. Trump is going to do anything

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Speaker 5: to distract again close files.

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Speaker 2: So have you been following much of that either? Also

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Speaker 2: in your neck of the woods, you know all of

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Speaker 2: these federal cases. Julane Maxwell obviously has had her appeal dropped,

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Speaker 2: meaning she was hoping to be covered under the co

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Speaker 2: conspirator deal that Epstein had made, and looks like that's

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Speaker 2: not going to happen. But again, Trump can pardon her

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 5: Right, and I think he will. I mean, I think

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Speaker 5: he's going to. I think he's going to do whatever

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Speaker 5: he can to keep this thing away from people finding

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Speaker 5: about the Epstein files. I mean, you see Speaker Mike

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Speaker 5: Johnson not certifying the two hundred and eighteenth vote so

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Speaker 5: we can open the Epstein files. And then did you

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Speaker 5: see too, there was a guy on TikTok who was

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Speaker 5: threatening allegedly Speaker Mike Johnson to like release his grinder,

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Speaker 5: like if there, I mean, he should be the freakin'

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Speaker 5: like mascot for grinder, you know what I mean, Like

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Speaker 5: just like of closeted people like you just know allegedly,

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Speaker 5: Allegedly he has a kind of smarmy little you know, like,

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Speaker 5: I mean he just you know, he shows up and

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Speaker 5: he's like, hey, how wow, you're really handsome. Yeah, he's

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Speaker 5: a guy to guy. Follow you handsome and you're like, hey,

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Speaker 5: where did everybody go? Like? I feel why am I

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Speaker 5: in a corner? Mike? You know, hey, you're you're beautiful?

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Speaker 5: They've ever told you that you? Oh God, get away

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Speaker 5: from me. I mean, he's so creepy. I just I

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Speaker 5: don't know how people can't read that more clearly.

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Speaker 3: I know it's very So you think there's a lot

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Speaker 3: going on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we've been getting a lot of top backs and

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Speaker 2: a lot of voicemails, and we're always.

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Speaker 3: Like, how do we cover this exactly?

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Speaker 2: But there is this intensifying feeling that there does seem

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Speaker 2: to be a distraction against the Epstein files. Yeah, we

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Speaker 2: cover it here a lot, and I'm so confused by

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Speaker 2: it because.

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Speaker 6: I kind of feel like, if if he pardons Gillane

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Speaker 6: and Diddy or let's say and or Diddy, that look

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Speaker 6: makes him look soft on sexual crime. So I would

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Speaker 6: think he would stay away from that and not pardon those.

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Speaker 5: Two, right, Yeah, I mean one would think, but I

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Speaker 5: just think he wants to pardon jis Laine, especially so

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Speaker 5: he can get her and send her to some island.

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Speaker 5: I say, Lane, sorry, no, you're fine.

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Speaker 3: Bro, you're listening back. We're like, are we going to

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Speaker 3: get shot here? Now?

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Speaker 2: That secret? We're like hiding under the desks. My goodness.

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Speaker 2: But like, listen, it does seem like it's heating up.

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Speaker 2: It seems like it's heating up on every corner. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean, all the cases that we're about to talk

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Speaker 2: to reference sex rings, you know. And again, my heart

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Speaker 2: really does go out so deeply to any of the

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Speaker 2: victims who came out to speak up against it, Diddy,

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Speaker 2: I can't imagine.

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Speaker 3: Very brave of them, that, yeah, very brave.

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Speaker 5: Well, it is how they're talking about redacting the victim.

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Speaker 5: We need to protect the victims. But then the president

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Speaker 5: is calling it a hoax as literal victims are speaking

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Speaker 5: on Capitol. Hell, you know, it's like this, this crap

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Speaker 5: that they want to protect victims is such a cover up.

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Speaker 5: They just want to protect these elite you know, business

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Speaker 5: you know, are you know. I think the problem is

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Speaker 5: is there's people on both sides of the aisle that

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Speaker 5: are guilty and on this list, and I'd say let

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Speaker 5: them all go.

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Speaker 6: You know, mutual assured destruction is what they're trying to protect.

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Speaker 6: I think, right, it's both sides, right, like they're both dirty.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, because I think when the Democrats had it, they

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Speaker 5: were like, yeah, let's not like Bill Clans, like, yeah,

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Speaker 5: we're never opening up and we'reever talking about this. And

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Speaker 5: then I think the Republicans started using it as a

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Speaker 5: tactic to get some of their base riled up. And

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Speaker 5: then you see Cash Patel gets in there, Dan Bongino,

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Speaker 5: both those guys Conspiracy, Theoris Epstein, Epstein, they get to like, uh,

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Speaker 5: there's nothing to see. He killed himself. You're like, oh wow,

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Speaker 5: you guys had so much to say before and now nothing,

434
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,439
Speaker 5: you know, and you can just tell they've seen the

435
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,439
Speaker 5: truth and they're like, we can't talk about this, Like,

436
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:55,640
Speaker 5: oh my god, I know how he though. I think

437
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 5: it's everybody. I mean, I just think there's so many

438
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 5: powerful elite democratic you know, business people. I just think

439
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:06,880
Speaker 5: that they can't afford to expose it all.

440
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 4: A pox on everyone's house, well hopefully not yours.

441
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,159
Speaker 3: On this full Moon Night. This is true Crimes to Night.

442
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 3: I'm Courtney.

443
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 4: I'm here with Stephanie and Body Movin and we are

444
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 4: so lucky dev journalists and comedians Samson Krupin aka Secret Service,

445
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,520
Speaker 4: Sam Thing, We're talking Diddy, We're talking Epstein, and we

446
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,199
Speaker 4: want to be talking to you eight at eight three

447
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,400
Speaker 4: to one Crime. So, Sam, there's something that I think

448
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,640
Speaker 4: we've all been dying to ask you about. Sure, throughout

449
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 4: the trial, it seemed like there was almost a secondary

450
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 4: scene going on on outside.

451
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:40,639
Speaker 3: What was it like there?

452
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,439
Speaker 5: Well, outside the courtroom was, in my opinion, where the

453
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 5: real drama was happening. Because every morning I would get there,

454
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,879
Speaker 5: I would usually at the beginning of tryoutd hire a

455
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,400
Speaker 5: line center, but that got too expensive, so I started

456
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 5: camping out in line myself. So I would have to

457
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 5: get there, you know, anywhere from two to three in

458
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,639
Speaker 5: the morning. And most of the line setters that are

459
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 5: holding lines for all the major legacy media are kind

460
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,880
Speaker 5: of you know, might be homeless, might not be there

461
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 5: camping out their intents, so there's lots of fights. The

462
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 5: first morning I was there, I pull up in line

463
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 5: and this guy thought I was budding line.

464
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 3: And He's like, you piece.

465
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,640
Speaker 5: You know, he's cursing at me, starts filming me, cursing,

466
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 5: saying all these horrible things to me. And I'm eating

467
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,639
Speaker 5: a breakfast sandwich. It's five am, and he's like, I

468
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 5: hope you choke on that and die. Choke on your sandwich.

469
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 5: I'm like, oh my god, I stop eating because I

470
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 5: was like, don't choke and die, Sam, don't joke, don't

471
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 5: choke and die. And I was like, what is your

472
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 5: problem this guy John? This was like the beginning of

473
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 5: our relationship where we were just kind of oil and

474
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 5: water throughout the trial. There was another time in the

475
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 5: morning where John, this homeless guy line setter, and this

476
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,400
Speaker 5: guy Jimmy who had this huge two by four piece

477
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 5: of wood. Jimmy comes up to us five am again.

478
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 5: He goes, I'm gonna hit John over the head with

479
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 5: this piece of wood. Be very quiet, snitches get stitches,

480
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 5: and I'm like, all right, dude, I'm just sitting here

481
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 5: at texting. I'm like, I'm like whatever, dude. He goes

482
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 5: over starts to hit John with this big piece of wood.

483
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 5: John wakes up. He's like, Jimmy, what are you doing?

484
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 5: Jimmy grabs his cell phone throws it on the ground.

485
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 5: I have all this on camera.

486
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 3: What the heck?

487
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 5: And then so John calls the police to file charges

488
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 5: on this crazy guy Jimmy who attacked him and me

489
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 5: and this other woman, Queen Amadora Shakur, another influencer witnessed

490
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 5: the whole thing. So John comes over. He calls the

491
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 5: police and he's like, tell him, tell him what you saw, Sam,

492
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:48,640
Speaker 5: And I was like, dude, I don't want any part

493
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 5: of this. Yeah, first time I met you and you

494
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 5: told me to choke on my sandwich and die. I

495
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 5: want no part of this. It's five am, no John,

496
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 5: and he goes. So the cops go away. So I'm

497
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 5: just sitting there on my phone and after the cops going,

498
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 5: John comes. He grabs my phone and he goes, since

499
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 5: mine got smashed, everybody's is and he smashes my phone

500
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 5: on the ground, takes this other woman smashes hers on

501
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 5: the ground. I was like what. So then we call

502
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 5: the police. They come back. I say, well, we want

503
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 5: to press charges and we want to file police report

504
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 5: because he he you know, it's you know, he attacked

505
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 5: this and everything. So we file that police report. I

506
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 5: get that police report number give it to the court buildings.

507
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,439
Speaker 5: So then John is officially banned from the court building.

508
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 5: So from that point on he was not ever allowed

509
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 5: inside the court building again. And then one of the

510
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:44,239
Speaker 5: last days, I'm sitting there outside, just exhausted, and all

511
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 5: of a sudden, John rolls up on roller blades and

512
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 5: he's got his drunk messed out buddy, and he goes

513
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,919
Speaker 5: serve them the papers, serve them, and the guy like

514
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 5: throws the papers and they land. He goes, no, no,

515
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 5: they have to hit his body. And then the guy

516
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 5: throws papers at me and I was like, get to

517
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 5: hear what is this? And later I find out he

518
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 5: claims he's suing me for one hundred million dollars.

519
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:07,400
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.

520
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 5: Yeah. So I'm just like, great, are.

521
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 6: We gonna have to go and camp out of your trial?

522
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,880
Speaker 6: Are we gonna have to sit outside and camp out?

523
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 5: And I hope not. I asked my brother and my father.

524
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 5: A lawyer is like, and I don't think it's been

525
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 5: filed in New York that he actually did it. And

526
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 5: then I just saw him like what for, Like what

527
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 5: grounds defamation? Because he had threatened, allegedly some women in

528
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 5: line to do some pretty awful things and people were

529
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 5: talking about it, and I had just happened to be

530
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,239
Speaker 5: talking about I like, John, you know, you threaten all

531
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 5: these women in line allegedly and all this, and so

532
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 5: he was suing me for defamation and I'm like one

533
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 5: hundred million dollars. It was like doctor Evil. I'm like,

534
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 5: that's a lot of right.

535
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 3: The sandwich is.

536
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,159
Speaker 5: So crazy, I was. I was very out. Yeah, I

537
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 5: was very happy to be done with like sentencing when

538
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 5: the court because it was just I've been going back

539
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 5: and forth between LA and New York and New York

540
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 5: is it's a certain kind of energy and it's just

541
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 5: a lot of aggressive people out there in the line.

542
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 5: So you couldn't just relax. Every single morning there'd be

543
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 5: a fight. And the line is like Hunger Games line,

544
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 5: like you literally just because you pay all that money.

545
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 5: The last day in line, these people butt ahead of

546
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 5: me and I had to kind of fight for my

547
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 5: place in line. So I was inside the courtroom on

548
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 5: the last day.

549
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 2: I really have enjoyed all of your reporting since I yes, yes, really.

550
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 5: Thank you guys. That means a lot. It's really it does.

551
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 3: And man, you really paid your dues and more so.

552
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 4: That was not the answer I expected when I asked

553
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 4: what was going on outside?

554
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 3: So yeah, hopefully.

555
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 4: We will not be Hopefully we will not be following

556
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 4: your triald but seriously secret Samson group in Secret Service Sam,

557
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 4: all of our thanks, all of our gratitude for joining

558
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 4: us tonight and for your cover, which we have watched religiously.

559
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 4: Everyone you can catch a show Samson's World. It's streaming daily,

560
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 4: It's on YouTube. He dives into the biggest legal pop

561
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 4: culture stories. He's got a trademark mix of insight and humor,

562
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 4: which we all got to enjoy this evening.

563
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 2: Big thanks again to Secret Service Sam for joining us.

564
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 2: Somehow I had a giggle, even though we were talking

565
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 2: about something so maddening and setting that I'd been raging

566
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 2: about all day.

567
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 3: When did you say you needed it? I really did.

568
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 6: I felt like, you know, really heavy today, and obviously

569
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 6: we were talking about something very serious, but he just

570
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 6: has a way about him.

571
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 3: It was really I giggled and I'm happy.

572
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 4: Well, and we learned after the break that he's actually

573
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 4: going to be if you happen to be in Los Angeles.

574
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 4: He is at the comedy is at doing a comedy show.

575
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 4: This Saturday at the Ice House in La So fun.

576
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 3: He's so smart.

577
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 4: October eleventh, This Saturday, ice House in Los Angeles.

578
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 3: It's smart not to bring the party down.

579
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 2: But you know, this key Lane Maxwell thing we're going

580
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 2: to continue to unpack in the next hour as well.

581
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 2: And then also later in the show Connor Powell, who

582
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 2: is an extraordinary executive producer and also journalist who's been

583
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 2: working with us on so many of our projects, but

584
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 2: also specifically on in Cells right now, and he has

585
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 2: some important stuff to be sharing on that front. It

586
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 2: all seems to kind of feed the same narrative in

587
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 2: some strange way. And then yeah, this story that's happening

588
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 2: in New York City, Midtown Manhattan with a sex dungeon

589
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 2: and very influential rich people apparently having another sex ring.

590
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 2: So we'll get to that as well. But first let's

591
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 2: let's start with the talk back.

592
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 7: Yeah, Hey, girls, this is best. He's from Bridgeport, Illinois.

593
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 7: Enjoy your podcast. A little bit behind teacher, go a lot,

594
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 7: agree and do it nice. Anyway, I'm thinking the least

595
00:30:55,680 --> 00:31:00,239
Speaker 7: could possibly been part of a sex trafficking issue. You

596
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 7: I'm just curious as to what your thoughts are on this,

597
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 7: thank you and really enjoy your show.

598
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 3: Oh well, thank you for the compliment.

599
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 2: I hadn't even thought about that that would track for

600
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 2: tonight's stories. I mean that seems to be there's sex

601
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 2: trafficking happening everywhere, which is also something that we never knew.

602
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 2: Most people were not aware how many rings and sex

603
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 2: trafficking issues there really are happening right in front of us.

604
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 2: So interesting point.

605
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 3: I mean, it's possible.

606
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 6: I don't necessarily think, you know, that is what happened,

607
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 6: of course, lesson by the way, side, note today was

608
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 6: her funeral and it looked there were photographers there and

609
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 6: it looked like a beautiful service.

610
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 3: She was laid to rest beautifully.

611
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 6: So you know, our blessings and thoughts are with her,

612
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 6: her family which had to do this today.

613
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 3: You know, it's a hard day for them. But as far.

614
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 6: As the sex trafficking is concerned, I think the relationship

615
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 6: was Listen, I think it was more personal than sexual

616
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 6: graphicking would imply. And I don't know what that relationship

617
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 6: looks like, whether he was a big brother or like

618
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 6: a boyfriend or you know whatnot, but I do think

619
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 6: it was more personal personally.

620
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's tough for us all.

621
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 4: Thank you again, and thank you for being a teacher

622
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 4: hero staying up late and you know, helping shape children.

623
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 4: It's a hard and important job.

624
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:23,959
Speaker 3: You know.

625
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 4: You bring up an interesting point, and I think there's

626
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 4: just such a dearth of actual knowledge right now.

627
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 3: So could that be the case. It could be so

628
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 3: many options.

629
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 4: We just don't know until more information comes out, is

630
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 4: just how I feel. So you know, it will be

631
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 4: coming out more information as the investigation continues and all

632
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 4: of that.

633
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 6: And I think we're looking probably just for a little

634
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 6: quick update. I think we're probably looking at another three

635
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 6: to four weeks for toxicology.

636
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,719
Speaker 2: Which is not unusual. That's how long it typically takes.

637
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 2: So even with a baby rush and they're being so

638
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 2: much attention on this case, they obviously want to get

639
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 2: it right.

640
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 3: So it just does take time.

641
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 6: Right because it typically takes about, you know, four to

642
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 6: six weeks, and I think, what in a couple of days,

643
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 6: it will have been.

644
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 3: Four weeks, So we've got some more waiting to do.

645
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 4: But even for many cases we've covered, I mean I

646
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 4: can think of ones where it's eleven weeks, where it's

647
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 4: fifteen weeks, where you know, that's true, because Stephanie, to

648
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 4: your point to get it right, to keep testing for

649
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 4: the anomalies if that's what needs to be found. You know,

650
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 4: we've spoken particularly with forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan of

651
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 4: this was found in toxicology. No, it's not the standard panel,

652
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 4: but forensically you keep digging and looking at your.

653
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 3: Findings and seeing what might match up.

654
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 4: So I firmly believe everyone's doing their job because, yeah, body,

655
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 4: there is a lot of attention on this and you

656
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:52,479
Speaker 4: want to do it.

657
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 8: Yeah.

658
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 2: Well, listen, you're listening to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio.

659
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 2: Stephanie Leidecker here with Courtney Armstrong and Body Moving, and listen,

660
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: jump in join the conbo eight eight, eight to three

661
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 2: one Crime. We're doing some talkbacks right now, so we

662
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 2: really want to hear from you.

663
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 3: If you leave us one boom, you'll be on the show.

664
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 3: So let's go to another.

665
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 9: Hi, guys, it's Cricket in Connecticut.

666
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 3: I know we're digging into.

667
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:19,280
Speaker 9: P Didty today and I just saw some news about

668
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 9: the original P Didty Jeffrey Epstein and Gillen Maxwell and

669
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 9: Trump announced that he's considering pardoning her.

670
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:29,320
Speaker 3: What do you think.

671
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 2: I'm just going to pray that we are not going

672
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 2: to see that happen. I really don't believe in my

673
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 2: heart of hearts that that will happen. I'm going to

674
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 2: hold out hope that we are in fact going to

675
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 2: have these Epstein files released, as was promised to us

676
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 2: by the administration leading into the election. I mean really promised,

677
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 2: and it wasn't really it couldn't possibly have been a

678
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 2: broken promise because you know, obviously Trump was in office previously,

679
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 2: he would have had access to these files, So.

680
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 3: We had to have known what was in them.

681
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 2: Why would he campaign knowing what was in them and

682
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 2: making a promise that he knew he wouldn't be able

683
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 2: to keep. Everybody was so confident that these files would

684
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 2: be released, and you know, back to Secret Services point,

685
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 2: Secret Service, Sams's point, I should say, yeah, it was

686
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 2: it was Cash, Ptel and Dan Banby. Everybody was saying it.

687
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 2: So I'm going to really hold out hope that that

688
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 2: does not happen.

689
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 6: Really quick, maybe I could read the exchange for the

690
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 6: everyone listening. So this happened in the Oval Office between

691
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 6: CNN Caitlin Collins and President Donald Trump. Collins pardoning Glainne Maxwell,

692
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:46,320
Speaker 6: is that something you're open to doing?

693
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 3: Trump? Who are we talking about?

694
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 6: Collins Gilaine Maxwell, Trump, I haven't heard that name in

695
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 6: so long. I can say this, I'd have to look,

696
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 6: I'd have to take a look at it. I will

697
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 6: speak to the DOJ. So that's the exchange that everyone

698
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 6: is reporting on and talking about. And to me, it

699
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 6: didn't necessarily mean that he's going to pardon her or

700
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 6: that he was even, you know, super interested. He just

701
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 6: kind of passed it off as I'll talk to the DJ.

702
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 6: That was my impression, and maybe I'm wrong, but I

703
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 6: don't necessarily listen. I just think it would be so

704
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 6: monumentally stupid to pardon her, especially after you're holding on

705
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 6: to the Epstein files. I just, I just I think

706
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 6: it's a terrible look.

707
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 3: But what do I know? Now?

708
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 5: You know?

709
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,479
Speaker 3: Ups down? He uns down right now? Was a little

710
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 3: bit what it feels like.

711
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 2: And obviously because of the current government shut down, sure,

712
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 2: there's no way to swear in our new congresswoman, who

713
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 2: would in fact be the two hundred and eighteenth signature.

714
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 2: She's even done a video saying, Hey, I am going

715
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 2: to do it. I just can't get sworn in and

716
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 2: you know, it seems like now this shutdown is going

717
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 2: to delay that further. And is it all connected or

718
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 2: am I just down the rabbit hole and can't get

719
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 2: out of it?

720
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 10: No?

721
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 6: I just I feel like it is. But I think

722
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 6: I'm in that rabbit hole with you. I think maybe

723
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 6: Courtney might need to dig us out.

724
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I don't know about the connection. I

725
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,359
Speaker 4: understand the similarities. Of course, there are many themes we've

726
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 4: spoken about between Ditty and Epstein. It's men, they're influential,

727
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 4: they are powerful. There's money, there's a subjugation of women,

728
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 4: there is abuse.

729
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 3: False are friends with Donald Trump. Both are friends with

730
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:33,800
Speaker 3: Donald Trump.

731
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,240
Speaker 4: Yes, all of these things.

732
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know. It's it seems different to me.

733
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 5: I don't.

734
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 4: I do not believe that Ditty and Jeffrey Ebstein, to

735
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,959
Speaker 4: my knowledge, we're hanging out and like they don't trade

736
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,359
Speaker 4: in secrets about how to abuse women.

737
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 2: But no, but it's just the idea that there were

738
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 2: open secrets. They also were both major open secrets. We

739
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 2: know this now that people in Epstein's world, both influential

740
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 2: world leaders, very important, significant people, knew.

741
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 3: What he was up to. They knew what he was

742
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 3: up to.

743
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 2: They gave him a sweetheart deal, he got a slap

744
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,479
Speaker 2: on the wrist the first time. Let him out into

745
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,839
Speaker 2: the wild to to really harm more women. And they

746
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 2: keep making again this like, oh, it's underage women. I

747
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 2: didn't under you know, I didn't give Jeffrey any women

748
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 2: who are underage her words.

749
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 3: This is what Kayline Maxwell has said.

750
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 4: You.

751
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 2: Any woman that you hand over you knowing full well

752
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 2: that is for something nefarious that they're not aware of,

753
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 2: is unbelievable.

754
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,280
Speaker 3: To me, and it just makes me so mad.

755
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 2: So I'm just going to hold out hope that the

756
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 2: world is going to be right side up. It's this

757
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 2: full Moon's gonna do its magic, honest tonight.

758
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 6: Maybe it's gonna give us a reset, a little bit

759
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 6: of a reset. Put your moon water out there in

760
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 6: charge the crystal girls. Let's like, you know that.

761
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 3: What we have to do? What do we have to do?

762
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 3: You have to put an empty bowl of water out

763
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 3: on the full moon, and the moon charges the water,

764
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 3: it makes it moon and then I drink it. No, you,

765
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:08,439
Speaker 3: I don't know what you do with it.

766
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 4: Actually this is getting woo woo and weird, but I

767
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 4: kind of like it and I'm super intrigued.

768
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 3: If you know you drink it. I don't think you

769
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 3: drink it.

770
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 6: I think you put your crystals out and that also

771
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 6: charges it the special and gives them energy.

772
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 3: But the moon water maybe it's like you put it

773
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 3: on your face. I don't know.

774
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 2: I don't know my face could use it. With all

775
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 2: this sad talk about stressful things.

776
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 3: It's morning, quick the moonwater? What's the next talk bag?

777
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 8: Good morning, ladies. This is Keim in Kentucky. I am

778
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 8: always a day behind, but I wanted to mention to

779
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 8: be careful with payment devices such as Zelle. I got scammed.

780
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 8: I sent money for item I did not receive set

781
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 8: of items. Banks said, it's basically considered cat so just

782
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 8: a little minder. I'm not sure what other apps or

783
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 8: payments are like that.

784
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,800
Speaker 6: You're looking at me, good looking anxiety Zel all the time?

785
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 5: Great.

786
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 3: I thought it was kind of backed by your bank.

787
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 3: Well it is.

788
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 6: But if if if you take money out of the

789
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 6: ATM and go buy something and you get you know,

790
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:26,879
Speaker 6: with cash money, and you get scammed, the bank it's

791
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 6: already left, you know what I mean, Like you're in

792
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 6: possession and Zell is like cash.

793
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:32,760
Speaker 3: That's why I've used it before.

794
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 6: It's like going to the ATM and walking around with

795
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 6: twenty bucks in your.

796
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 5: Hand or whatever.

797
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 6: If you if you send that to somebody to buy

798
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 6: tickets to the sports game, right, it'd be the same

799
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 6: as if you had in them twenty dollars in cash.

800
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 3: The bank can't help you, scam.

801
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,240
Speaker 4: Sorry this happened to you, but I'm so glad you shared,

802
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 4: and we should honestly put this on the list for

803
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 4: a future episode of just a Scam Alert or something,

804
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 4: because that is we all use, or many of us

805
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:06,359
Speaker 4: use many different apps and just what to look out

806
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 4: for or how to do the secondary safety, you know, if.

807
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 2: It's the secondary safety is the worst though, because you

808
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 2: have to remember the password and then it has to

809
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 2: get sent to the place that you never can remember,

810
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 2: and then you get to reset the password and you

811
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:19,760
Speaker 2: start from scratch.

812
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 3: Yeah. That war like you're out your money, yeah, or

813
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 3: you're at your money. But what it is, I have

814
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:27,240
Speaker 3: a good trick for passwords.

815
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 6: Really, it's a song like you know, I'm a Beastie

816
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 6: Boys fan, fight for your right to party. That's a

817
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 6: that's a that's a song title, right, I just picked

818
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 6: One'll just use part of the title for your password,

819
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 6: so f f y why you know what I mean,

820
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 6: like fight for your right to party and then add

821
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 6: like you know twenty three twenty two exclamation point question

822
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 6: mark at the end.

823
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 3: Oh that's a very good Yeah.

824
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 2: I try to outsmart myself each time and then can

825
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 2: never remember it, and then when I finally figure it out,

826
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,320
Speaker 2: it's like, what was I even thinking in the first.

827
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 3: Why do you use the Why would that be my password?

828
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,280
Speaker 6: You can use the same song and just take different lyrics,

829
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 6: but don't take the words from the song. Take the

830
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,879
Speaker 6: first letter, or maybe you get it in your head

831
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:14,360
Speaker 6: that you take the second letter. You know, but you

832
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 6: come up with the system and you'll never forget your password,

833
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 6: I promise, I.

834
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 2: Think honestly, the most irritating thing is the password today.

835
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 4: It is do you do you know one password? The

836
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 4: number one and then password? I know I'm putting you

837
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 4: on this. You do do you have knee jerk thoughts

838
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 4: on it?

839
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:38,439
Speaker 6: I don't use it, okay, I know what you're talking about.

840
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 6: The software that stores are not use it?

841
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 3: You're saying, Stephanie, I do not use it.

842
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 2: No, I listen to whatever body says, but I would not.

843
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 2: I think it is sort of scary to have all

844
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 2: of your passwords, whether you remember them or not, in

845
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 2: any aggregated one place to just in the time of

846
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:55,439
Speaker 2: days that we're in right now.

847
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 3: Also, I'm reading that chat gpt is able to store

848
00:42:58,880 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 3: all of your.

849
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 2: Conversations for infinity and they can be used against you

850
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 2: in the court of law should that need be.

851
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:07,399
Speaker 3: Of course.

852
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 6: I mean, every time I love into chat GPT, I

853
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 6: have thought all my saved or not my saved, but

854
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 6: all my previous chats, and I've got them organized by folder,

855
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 6: and like, yes, oh yeah.

856
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 2: We need to do like five thousand hours of five

857
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:20,800
Speaker 2: thousand hours.

858
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:22,919
Speaker 6: But I mean I only use it for like this,

859
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 6: you know, or like, I'm not using it for anything crazy.

860
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 6: I'm like, create a snippet of Python code that does this.

861
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 6: But yeah, of course it could be used against you.

862
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 6: It's just like a Google search, right, right, that's.

863
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 3: A good point. How did that light bulb not go

864
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:36,240
Speaker 3: on before?

865
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 4: I mean, Stephanie, how many times have we cited their

866
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 4: Google searches were in different documentaries?

867
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 2: So yeah, wow, right, I mean, now I feel scared again.

868
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 2: I was having a giggle and now I feel don't

869
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 2: be scared.

870
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:49,879
Speaker 3: We need the moon water.

871
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 4: We're gonna we're gonna start the recipe and get that.

872
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 3: I just dunk my whole face in it, that is

873
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 3: for sure. So listen.

874
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 2: Next up we're going to be talking about this wild

875
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,359
Speaker 2: case happening in new work, also a sex trafficking ring

876
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 2: allegedly allegedly allegedly and later. Connor Powell journalist is here

877
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 2: to talk all things in cells with us. He is

878
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 2: the greatest and.

879
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:11,720
Speaker 3: A family member of Katie.

880
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 2: If you will, well, welcome back to true crime tonight

881
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all the time. I'm

882
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:30,320
Speaker 2: Stephanie Leidecker. Here, we have Courtney Armstrong and body move in.

883
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 3: So we got the scoop about the moonwater.

884
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 2: You leave it outside and then I guess you can

885
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 2: bathe in it and you can drink it, you.

886
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 6: Can put on your face, you can splash water on

887
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 6: and it's supposed to give you like this lunar energy

888
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 6: that's supposed to be very calming.

889
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 3: He listen, I.

890
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 4: Need that, we all need. I mean, there has been

891
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 4: these headlines have been so heavy.

892
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 3: What's going on is so heavy.

893
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 4: We're really we are literally reaching for the moon, Like

894
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 4: what will make us any any solution in a time

895
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 4: and need, and.

896
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:02,879
Speaker 2: You have your way to vest back on. I don't

897
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 2: know where I put mine somehow, Well again, a hosture

898
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 2: is everything. Hey, it's so inspiring. Well, listen tomorrow is

899
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 2: talk back Tuesday also, so be sure to be leaving

900
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:17,399
Speaker 2: us your talkbacks. Just download the iHeartRadio app please top

901
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 2: right hand corner. There's a little microphone icon. Press that

902
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:23,720
Speaker 2: leave us a message and boom, you'll be on the show.

903
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:26,320
Speaker 2: Or you could also hit us up on our socials

904
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 2: at True Crime Tonight's show on Instagram and TikTok or

905
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 2: at True Crime Tonight on Facebook, and then also later

906
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 2: in the show Connor Powell, journalist and producer and a

907
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 2: member of the KT family. We've done a lot of

908
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 2: projects with Connor. He'll be with us to talk more

909
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 2: about in cells. So that's always going to be a

910
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 2: tough topic, but with a great person to talk to

911
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 2: about it.

912
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 3: And this case, I mean, where do we begin with

913
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 3: this one? Where do we begin with this next case?

914
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:01,280
Speaker 3: Lay out the fat body.

915
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:04,319
Speaker 4: It's gob smocking, but let's just lay it out just

916
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:05,359
Speaker 4: how we learned about it.

917
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 6: So what we're talking about is this Howard Ruben case. So,

918
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 6: Howard Rubin and his former personal assistant, Jennifer Powers have

919
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 6: been federally indicted and arrested on sex trafficking, interstate transportation

920
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 6: for commercial sex acts, and related charges, with Ruben detained

921
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 6: without fail and his assistant has been released on bond.

922
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:28,919
Speaker 6: So here we are again, like did he just got

923
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 6: sentenced Friday? And here we are Tuesday reading about this.

924
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,840
Speaker 6: I'm going to tell you the story, but it's mind blowing, Okay.

925
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 6: So he is a former Wall Street financier, and he

926
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 6: has a history of unauthorized trades and a career that

927
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 6: included work for George Sorows. And he has long faced

928
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 6: allegations from multiple women accusing him of violent sexual abuse

929
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:58,280
Speaker 6: and sex trafficking. So this case centers on Ruben's operation

930
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 6: of a sex trafficking ring for the last or for

931
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:04,840
Speaker 6: ten years, from two thousand and nine to twenty nineteen,

932
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 6: involving the recruitment and abuse of women in a Manhattan

933
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 6: penthouse dubbed the sex dungeon with his assistant. So he

934
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 6: had this whole Manhattan apartment that was set up as

935
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 6: like a BDSM sex.

936
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 2: Dungeon, which is unbelievable if you see the photographs. It's

937
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 2: really what you would envision in a movie, right, Like

938
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 2: it's red walled cross that people can be handcuffed to

939
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 2: all kinds of paraphernalia. Again, listen, if you do behind

940
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 2: closed doors is your thing, but this doesn't seem like

941
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 2: it's that.

942
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 3: No, yeah, and listen to this. Okay.

943
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,360
Speaker 6: So there's an email from twenty twelve from his assistant

944
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 6: to him who again helped her allegedly helped Loure dozens

945
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 6: of women to him for abuse. She emailed him with

946
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,239
Speaker 6: details and here's what she said. I've put chains on

947
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 6: the four points of your cross and four points of

948
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 6: the dungeon bed. On the end of each chains a cuff.

949
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 6: I've done this because it will be very easy to

950
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 6: just throw someone on the cross or on the bed

951
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:17,720
Speaker 6: and just strap them into the pre made chains and cuffs.

952
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 3: What. Yeah. No.

953
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 2: And by the way, it wasn't like they were willing

954
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:26,919
Speaker 2: participants in this, or if they were initially because maybe

955
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 2: they were a sex worker or or he was offering

956
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 2: real money or something. This got real gnarly and they

957
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 2: were being held captive and there were so many complaints

958
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 2: and they filed lawsuits against him and and this has

959
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 2: been going on for a really long time and is

960
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 2: a pretty big open secret. And this guy was a

961
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 2: very important successful financier in New York City and this

962
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,360
Speaker 2: apartment is right smack in the middle of Midtown Manhattan,

963
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 2: and he had the second residence.

964
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 6: He was basically threatening the victims with legal consequences and

965
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,280
Speaker 6: he would make them sign non disclosure agreements and whatnot.

966
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:05,239
Speaker 6: So and you know they listen. NDAs are not They

967
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 6: very rarely hold up in court because they're way too

968
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 6: broad and vague. I mean, they have to be so specific,

969
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 6: and so you know if you don't know this, So

970
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 6: when you sign an NDA and then something happens to

971
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 6: you and you're like, oh my god, I got to

972
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 6: talk about this. And then you're like, oh, you can't

973
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 6: talk about it because you signed an NDA, and if

974
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 6: you do, I'm going to sue you.

975
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:23,800
Speaker 3: Dada da whatever.

976
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 6: You're going to be totally scared, right, You're going to course,

977
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 6: Oh my god, I have to shut up. Well, that's

978
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 6: what happened here. And eventually it's come out and they

979
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:36,800
Speaker 6: were arrested and indicted.

980
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 4: That it is torture again under duress and under threat

981
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:47,840
Speaker 4: of being sued. If you say anything. But these women,

982
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:51,760
Speaker 4: some of them have said they were shocked or electrocuted,

983
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 4: they were beaten, right, I mean.

984
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 2: This is needed to go to the hospital. In some

985
00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:00,160
Speaker 2: cases they needed an immediate medical care. And the this

986
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:05,800
Speaker 2: messy allegedly allegedly allegedly assistant Jennifer Powers if in fact

987
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:10,320
Speaker 2: what she's being accused of is accurate. Similarly to Gilaine Maxwell,

988
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 2: her job was to recruit women. In her case, she

989
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 2: had to get them flights from whatever city they were

990
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 2: coming from. Say it's Las Vegas or say it's you know,

991
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:23,320
Speaker 2: Los Angeles.

992
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 3: Who knows.

993
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 2: She was booking their flights, and then she was getting

994
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 2: them settled. She was making sure that the accommodations were

995
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:34,440
Speaker 2: as is. By the way, these little events also used

996
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 2: to take place initially at some very high falutint New

997
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 2: York hotels. Between this and the Diddy Hotel stuff like,

998
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 2: I have never looked at a hotel again the same way.

999
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 2: These are fancy establishments as well. So then he decided

1000
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 2: not to be down in the hotel situation anymore. So

1001
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 2: this Howard Rubin then rents an apartment, a two bedroom

1002
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 2: apartment in Manhattan, also so expensive dedicated only imagine it

1003
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,320
Speaker 2: is so expensive and it's.

1004
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:08,280
Speaker 6: Dedicated to this, so I mean, obviously he's very invested

1005
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 6: in this lifestyle, which okay, fine if it's consenting adult.

1006
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:14,239
Speaker 6: But he prayed on vulnerable women. Why I should say

1007
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:15,759
Speaker 6: they allegedly.

1008
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 3: Prayed on vulnerable women.

1009
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 6: You know a lot of them were suffering from addiction

1010
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 6: and other traumas and whatnot.

1011
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 3: And this is who they're looking for, right these people. Yeah,

1012
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 3: this is the playbook.

1013
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 4: I cannot believe that the assistant Jennifer powers that she

1014
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:35,359
Speaker 4: is not being held behind bars. I know nothing has

1015
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 4: gone to court. I know everything is alleged, but you know.

1016
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 3: Well.

1017
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 6: It was an eight hundred thousand dollars bond to get

1018
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 6: out of this, so it was a significant bond. But

1019
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 6: apparently they're in trouble for other things too, not just

1020
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:57,919
Speaker 6: this sex trafficking. They have other charges. I'm actually trying

1021
00:51:57,960 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 6: to find them right now. But I had just read it.

1022
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 6: I think it's like tax evasion.

1023
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 4: It's tax evasion, yes, and it's also bank fraud and

1024
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 4: it involves undisclosed.

1025
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 3: Payments and incomes, so that's also that makes anse.

1026
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:14,840
Speaker 4: But I don't I have to say, and this is

1027
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 4: nice coming, This is not coming from a good place.

1028
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 4: So let mean maybe preface that, but I don't care

1029
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,799
Speaker 4: eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars. I don't care if

1030
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,920
Speaker 4: you are setting up the system in which you know

1031
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 4: people will be chained and potentially electrocuted, I don't know.

1032
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 4: Maybe it's a little bit of karma to have a

1033
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 4: little bit of chains, a little bit of handcuffs, a

1034
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 4: little bit of behind bars.

1035
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:44,720
Speaker 3: If you did that for your boss, willingly.

1036
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:47,799
Speaker 2: Thank you, Courtney Armstrong. And by the way, this is

1037
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:50,440
Speaker 2: a married woman. We refer to her as an assistant,

1038
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 2: and it kind of implies that she's this young, unassuming girl.

1039
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:57,319
Speaker 2: She's a woman, and she has a husband, and her

1040
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 2: house was paid for by this Howard Rubin. He apparently

1041
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 2: also came up on some very serious charges when he

1042
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:11,760
Speaker 2: was at what is the name of the firm bear Sterns,

1043
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 2: allegedly in the eighties exactly by the way, Bear Stearns,

1044
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,759
Speaker 2: which is a very like major Wall Street bank, It

1045
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 2: was like the top firm.

1046
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 3: Back in the day.

1047
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:27,439
Speaker 2: Interesting, that's where Jeffrey Epstein got his start as a fight.

1048
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 6: Remember the financial collapse that we all experience in like

1049
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 6: the two thousand and eight Bear Stearns was like one

1050
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 6: of the cornerstones of that collapse, and so was.

1051
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 2: He, you know, so bear Sterns and like, yeah, this

1052
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 2: whole time period, so Epstein was at bear Stearns in

1053
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 2: the early days. That's where he was sort of kicking

1054
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 2: off his big financier career. And he was therefore linked

1055
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 2: up and introduced to very prominent and high profile people.

1056
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 2: And then this Howard Rubin seems to be not too

1057
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:02,440
Speaker 2: far behind him, and it's pretty astounding.

1058
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 3: And he was actually brought up on.

1059
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 2: Charges allegedly, allegedly allegedly of three hundred and seventy seven

1060
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:14,800
Speaker 2: million dollars on a bad bet involving interest rate derivatives.

1061
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 2: I'm saying that, I'm literally just reading that, so obviously

1062
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 2: I have no idea what the derivatives' parts means. This

1063
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 2: was in the late nineties, which is why he ultimately

1064
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:24,240
Speaker 2: left that job.

1065
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 3: I wonder if they cross mass.

1066
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 2: They kind of, doesn't it see timelines but right after

1067
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:31,239
Speaker 2: each other, doesn't.

1068
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 6: It seem I mean, minus the island and whatnot. Doesn't

1069
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 6: it seem though, like it's the same setup. Yes, this

1070
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 6: assistant Obviously, the relationship was different with Ebstein and Glen Maxwell.

1071
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:45,240
Speaker 3: But it seems like the same kind of thing.

1072
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:48,959
Speaker 6: Where the woman is used to lure other women, because again,

1073
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:53,240
Speaker 6: women are safe, right, We're mothering, we're caring and nurturing,

1074
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 6: so we're the safe ones. Obviously, we're not going to

1075
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:58,399
Speaker 6: hurt you, right, We're not going to hurt you, darling, Like.

1076
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 3: Look at me. I'm a pro I'm a professional woman.

1077
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 3: I'm just like you.

1078
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:07,239
Speaker 2: Ooh yeah, And that's placebook the MOAV part. Wonder if

1079
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:09,840
Speaker 2: they knew each other. I think they all traveled in

1080
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 2: the same circles. Of course they knew each other. They

1081
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 2: had to have known each other, and they're running very

1082
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:17,800
Speaker 2: similar operations. Again open secret that nobody was talking about.

1083
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 2: It seems like all of these dark things are coming

1084
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:21,799
Speaker 2: to light now.

1085
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:25,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, these are some dirty circles we're talking about.

1086
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 4: So we'll cleanse with moonwater later in the nights to

1087
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:32,800
Speaker 4: get some of this off. But this is true crime. Tonight,

1088
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 4: we are on iHeartRadio. I'm Courtneying here as always with

1089
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 4: Stephanie Leideker and Body move In. We're talking about Howard Rubin.

1090
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:45,359
Speaker 4: He's the former Wall Street financier and he and his

1091
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:51,440
Speaker 4: assistant have now been federally indicted on sex trafficking and

1092
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 4: interstate transportation for commercial sex acts and it's really horrendous.

1093
00:55:57,120 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 3: We want to hear your thoughts. Eighty eighty three.

1094
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 4: One crime and also, gentle reminder, tomorrow is talk Back Tuesday,

1095
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 4: and we do want to hear from you on really

1096
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:07,800
Speaker 4: anything that's in the news.

1097
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:10,279
Speaker 3: Anything. If there's anything local in.

1098
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:12,239
Speaker 4: Your life that you think we should be following, that

1099
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 4: would be you know, good for the show. If there's

1100
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 4: something you want us to dig into, We're really open

1101
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:20,239
Speaker 4: to having you help us shape the show, which you

1102
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:21,480
Speaker 4: consistently do.

1103
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:25,400
Speaker 6: Or let us know how you use moonwater or that,

1104
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:29,920
Speaker 6: because I'm like dying to know. Yeah, okay, So back

1105
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:33,919
Speaker 6: to Reuben real quick. So, allegations first became public through

1106
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:39,160
Speaker 6: a twenty seventeen civil lawsuit filed by multiple women, including

1107
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 6: playboy models, and they accused Ruben of sexual abuse in trafficking,

1108
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:46,879
Speaker 6: and from that a twenty twenty two so it took

1109
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:51,799
Speaker 6: five years a civil jury found him liable for trafficking

1110
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:57,920
Speaker 6: six women, awarding three point eight million in damages. Now,

1111
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:01,360
Speaker 6: she wasn't found liable. The system was not found liable

1112
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 6: in this civil trial. But now, of course she joins

1113
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:06,920
Speaker 6: him in being criminally charged. And here's what I'm wondering,

1114
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 6: and this is why I'm mentioning it. What changed She's

1115
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 6: going to turn on him? Do you think, of course.

1116
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 2: Say herself, Yeah, I mean I would have to assume so,

1117
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 2: because unlike the Epstein and Galaine Maxwell, and I'm guessing here,

1118
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 2: I think Elaine Maxwell had a very very very high

1119
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 2: profile people in her circle, and there would have been

1120
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 2: a real hit on her back if she spoke up

1121
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:37,240
Speaker 2: or if she got out of line. So it doesn't

1122
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:41,480
Speaker 2: seem like Elaine Maxwell really ever turned on Epstein or Frankly,

1123
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:43,840
Speaker 2: on anyone. Right until the bitter end, She's like, nope,

1124
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:47,080
Speaker 2: they seem like great, they seemed wonderful because anybody can

1125
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 2: get to Glaine Maxwell.

1126
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:50,400
Speaker 6: But we don't know about the secret conversation that she

1127
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:51,680
Speaker 6: had with the DJ recently.

1128
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:53,240
Speaker 3: We don't know what she.

1129
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 2: Said, the one that led her to this low security

1130
00:57:57,560 --> 00:58:02,439
Speaker 2: situation that Glaine Man finds herself. And right now, one

1131
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:05,440
Speaker 2: thing I'm hoping though, the House Oversight Committee will also

1132
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 2: now be interviewing Elane Maxwell, I was told today, So

1133
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 2: that might bring up some new information maybe or maybe

1134
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 2: would change her living arrangements. But this Jennifer Powers, who

1135
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:22,920
Speaker 2: is the assistant to this Howard Rubin. I'm curious, so

1136
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:26,560
Speaker 2: curious about their relationship. Again, she's a married girl, she

1137
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:30,439
Speaker 2: has allegedly children that have private schools that are also

1138
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:33,760
Speaker 2: being paid for by the funding she received from him,

1139
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:37,439
Speaker 2: and she obviously has a lot of dirt on them,

1140
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 2: and she's looking at some real time and indictment, federally speaking,

1141
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:45,840
Speaker 2: is no walk in the park. So how long until

1142
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:46,919
Speaker 2: she turns on him?

1143
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:47,520
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1144
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 4: Well, here's what a special agent in charge at the

1145
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:55,960
Speaker 4: IRS said, because the IRS and the FBI were working together,

1146
00:58:56,520 --> 00:59:00,479
Speaker 4: so the paraphrasing, this was not a one man show.

1147
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 4: Rubin dehumanized these women with abhorrent sexual acts.

1148
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 3: Powers.

1149
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:08,920
Speaker 4: The assistant is alleged to have run the day to

1150
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:13,480
Speaker 4: day operations and got paid generously for her efforts, So

1151
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:16,120
Speaker 4: eyes are wide on her, and.

1152
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:20,640
Speaker 2: I still always wonder if not to go backward to Diddy.

1153
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 2: I know we covered that in the last hour, but

1154
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:25,080
Speaker 2: you know, we never really heard much about KK.

1155
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 3: His personal assistant.

1156
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:31,919
Speaker 2: That never been realized is not m Kardashi and KK

1157
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 2: his assistant Christina Asta.

1158
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:35,680
Speaker 3: I think it was Christina.

1159
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 2: I'm spacing on her last name in this exact moment,

1160
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 2: but that never came to be because she much like

1161
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:44,600
Speaker 2: this Jennifer Powers, did all the cleaning up, did all

1162
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 2: the arrangements, was getting the drug, all the things?

1163
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:49,920
Speaker 3: Right? Did she turn? I don't know.

1164
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:53,360
Speaker 4: Well, keep it here. We've got journalists counter Powell. He's

1165
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 4: joining us. We will be discussing in Cells. We'll also

1166
00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:59,000
Speaker 4: be hearing from you. Keep it here, True Crime Tonight,

1167
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:00,720
Speaker 4: True Crime all the Time.

1168
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:14,440
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1169
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:17,560
Speaker 2: true Crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

1170
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong.

1171
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:19,560
Speaker 3: Body move in.

1172
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:23,840
Speaker 2: And we have our Connor Powell back with us in

1173
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:27,960
Speaker 2: the house. Connor, you'll remember, journalist, producer. He's worked with

1174
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 2: us on so many of our projects. He's currently need

1175
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:33,920
Speaker 2: deep An in Cells, which has been a really scary

1176
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:38,960
Speaker 2: and in my case, very eye opening project period the end,

1177
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:43,240
Speaker 2: apparently I knew nothing and thought I knew it all

1178
01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 2: going into it, and suddenly we're in the rabbit hole.

1179
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:50,080
Speaker 2: And Connor is leading the charge right now because he's

1180
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:53,680
Speaker 2: on Reddit boards. He's like, I will Connor, you can

1181
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:58,320
Speaker 2: speak for yourself. Welcome back honor, Hello, out of applause.

1182
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:03,160
Speaker 2: Also extraordinary on Death Island, another one of our podcasts

1183
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:06,479
Speaker 2: on iHeart. But you know, Connor is just he's either

1184
01:01:06,960 --> 01:01:10,560
Speaker 2: somewhere important in the world in like a war torn area,

1185
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:14,800
Speaker 2: doing very important stuff, or he's producing his own stuff

1186
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 2: as an executive producer and creating his own content and documentaries.

1187
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:20,880
Speaker 2: And then once in the blue moon we can like

1188
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:22,840
Speaker 2: drag them back to slumt with us.

1189
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:27,640
Speaker 3: So he snatched my exactly. Yeah, so welcome back.

1190
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:30,080
Speaker 10: Connor, thank you, thank you. I'm just wondering, are you

1191
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 10: guys taking a bill from my therapist after taking me

1192
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 10: into the in cell world the last few weeks, is

1193
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:37,280
Speaker 10: that I send it to you, Stephanie.

1194
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:42,760
Speaker 2: Yes, you can send it to me directly, Dear Courtney Armstrong, exactly.

1195
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:45,840
Speaker 4: I gotta say, having been you know, Stephanie, I think

1196
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:47,960
Speaker 4: you put it well when you said thought we knew

1197
01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:54,640
Speaker 4: something going in. This has been so illuminating and honestly terrifying.

1198
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:56,280
Speaker 3: And sad.

1199
01:01:56,360 --> 01:02:00,760
Speaker 4: It's really been every emotion when digging in to this

1200
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:05,200
Speaker 4: world that really it exists and people need to know.

1201
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:07,520
Speaker 3: More about it. But Connor, why don't you tell people

1202
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 3: a little bit like what.

1203
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:10,840
Speaker 4: You've been doing and how you've been doing it, because

1204
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:14,440
Speaker 4: you've been doing really specific work.

1205
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:18,000
Speaker 10: Yeah. So, you know, I spent the last couple of

1206
01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:21,200
Speaker 10: weeks sort of getting down and dirty into the in

1207
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:24,240
Speaker 10: cell world. I have to admit, after the first week,

1208
01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 10: what's ensure I wanted to continue it. I've never really

1209
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:30,160
Speaker 10: had that experience on some of the other projects we've

1210
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:33,200
Speaker 10: worked on and other things that I've done. I really

1211
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 10: did actually say to my wife after the first week,

1212
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:38,880
Speaker 10: I'm like, this really isn't that much fun being this

1213
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:41,760
Speaker 10: sort of deep and dark into the in cell world.

1214
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:44,160
Speaker 10: And you know, you guys brought me on to sort

1215
01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:47,680
Speaker 10: of reach out to in cells, to find different message

1216
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 10: groups and to try to access some of these communities

1217
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 10: online that you know are pretty closed off. They're not

1218
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:58,360
Speaker 10: groups that want to talk to outsiders, particularly women, right

1219
01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:02,360
Speaker 10: and yes, And so I spent the better part of

1220
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:05,160
Speaker 10: the last sort of three to four weeks reaching out

1221
01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:08,400
Speaker 10: to people signing up for in cell chat boards asking

1222
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:11,880
Speaker 10: permission if I can join. You know, it's funny almost

1223
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:14,440
Speaker 10: all of them had sort of a question and answer

1224
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:16,760
Speaker 10: requirement before you could join. Why do you want to

1225
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:18,400
Speaker 10: join us? Are you an inceel?

1226
01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:19,080
Speaker 3: You know?

1227
01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:22,640
Speaker 10: You sort of had to pass their tests, and I

1228
01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:24,840
Speaker 10: tried to do it without lying, but at the same

1229
01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:27,360
Speaker 10: time not saying sort of that, you know, I was

1230
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:30,760
Speaker 10: a journalist. Some of the groups I did access like

1231
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:33,400
Speaker 10: Facebook and read it perfectly fine. I mean, they're they're

1232
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:37,480
Speaker 10: a little bit calmer of platforms, right, But the incell

1233
01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:41,240
Speaker 10: do is or Intel dot Co, you know, I think

1234
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:45,160
Speaker 10: that is the hardcore site, and that was the place

1235
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:47,280
Speaker 10: that I think really sort of just depressed me. It's

1236
01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:50,040
Speaker 10: an old school message board for people who weren't there.

1237
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:55,400
Speaker 10: It really is a vile place full of lots of

1238
01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:58,560
Speaker 10: hatred and anger, and I think that's where I've spent

1239
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:01,720
Speaker 10: the most of the time, you know, researching the last

1240
01:04:01,880 --> 01:04:03,880
Speaker 10: like three or four weeks, trying to figure out and

1241
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:05,800
Speaker 10: understand the in cell community a lot better.

1242
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 4: But those places I had never I had never been

1243
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:14,280
Speaker 4: on an in cell forum until this, and I've been

1244
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:17,120
Speaker 4: doing true crime for quite a long time. I consider

1245
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:22,520
Speaker 4: myself fairly unshockable. But I literally, like you said, the hate,

1246
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:28,920
Speaker 4: the anger, the vitrial, the despair, the disgain and discussed

1247
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:33,360
Speaker 4: against women. The I literally could not believe the language.

1248
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:35,520
Speaker 4: And I've certainly heard a thing or two and I've

1249
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:37,640
Speaker 4: said a thing or two, but not not like this.

1250
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:41,920
Speaker 4: And we've also gotten to speak to all these all

1251
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:46,080
Speaker 4: these different experts from every different field and statisticians, and

1252
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:53,320
Speaker 4: we're talking about about one percent of men eighteen to thirty.

1253
01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:56,320
Speaker 4: That's one in every hundred. It's actually closer to one

1254
01:04:56,320 --> 01:05:00,640
Speaker 4: point six percent. So picture that's like two class to kids,

1255
01:05:01,640 --> 01:05:04,120
Speaker 4: maybe three. You know, one or two of them are

1256
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:06,040
Speaker 4: in this world, and I think a lot of us

1257
01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:06,960
Speaker 4: need to know about it.

1258
01:05:07,360 --> 01:05:10,320
Speaker 6: They're on the verge of entering this world too, right,

1259
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:11,480
Speaker 6: they're just teetering.

1260
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:14,320
Speaker 2: And one thing that Connor does so well, and by

1261
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:17,200
Speaker 2: the way, we had all seen the movie Adolescence. I

1262
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:19,600
Speaker 2: know we're discussing it for our true Crime and Chill.

1263
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:22,240
Speaker 2: That really is something that put it kind of on

1264
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:26,640
Speaker 2: the forefront. And you know, popular conversation. We've been talking

1265
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:29,840
Speaker 2: about in cells for a really long time. And again

1266
01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:32,240
Speaker 2: it's very closed off. But in my head I thought

1267
01:05:32,240 --> 01:05:36,800
Speaker 2: it was like this little small sample of disenfranchised young

1268
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:40,760
Speaker 2: men who had a hard time maybe during COVID. That's

1269
01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:43,640
Speaker 2: like the Pollyanna version that I had in my head.

1270
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:48,640
Speaker 2: The amount is pretty astounding, and Connor's done a really

1271
01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:51,440
Speaker 2: amazing job about getting a real weighted scale of it

1272
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:55,120
Speaker 2: extreme and then also others, you know, not all in

1273
01:05:55,240 --> 01:05:59,560
Speaker 2: cells are violent, not all in cell members are violent.

1274
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:03,920
Speaker 2: That's a very clear distinction. So there is like the

1275
01:06:04,080 --> 01:06:07,360
Speaker 2: contributor or the person that you've interviewed that gives more

1276
01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:12,440
Speaker 2: of a heartwhelming, heartwarming version of why, and then the

1277
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:15,720
Speaker 2: other side is unimaginable, right, and.

1278
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:18,200
Speaker 6: Well, they defeed each other too, and they're behind a keyboard,

1279
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:22,400
Speaker 6: which makes it the feeding just a lot easier. And

1280
01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 6: while most people can turn off the computer and just

1281
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:28,200
Speaker 6: go live their life and be maybe in despair, you know,

1282
01:06:29,040 --> 01:06:31,480
Speaker 6: others are radicalized by it, right.

1283
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:35,320
Speaker 10: Well, I think in cell podcasts, you know that we're

1284
01:06:35,360 --> 01:06:38,920
Speaker 10: sort of exploring with it is that it is one community,

1285
01:06:38,920 --> 01:06:40,920
Speaker 10: but at the same time, there's lots of different segments

1286
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:43,360
Speaker 10: of the community, right, Like I think I kind of

1287
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:45,600
Speaker 10: went into it Stephanie was talking about as well, which

1288
01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:47,680
Speaker 10: like I thought, I sort of knew what the definition was.

1289
01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:51,680
Speaker 10: And you know, there's sort of the standard definition, right

1290
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:56,960
Speaker 10: like an involuntarily celibate person young man who has frustrations

1291
01:06:56,960 --> 01:07:00,000
Speaker 10: with women. And then that's kind of like the beginning,

1292
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:03,160
Speaker 10: and then it opens the door and we go down

1293
01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:06,720
Speaker 10: this path throughout the series about what does that actually

1294
01:07:06,720 --> 01:07:08,640
Speaker 10: mean in real life? And you know, what I think

1295
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:13,080
Speaker 10: I discovered was that there's a couple of different themes

1296
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:19,240
Speaker 10: in groups. There are older in cells who are a

1297
01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:21,680
Speaker 10: little bit more of a life experience. Some of them

1298
01:07:21,720 --> 01:07:24,080
Speaker 10: have dated, some of them have had relationships with women,

1299
01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:27,640
Speaker 10: but they've married married for three days, like one of

1300
01:07:27,680 --> 01:07:32,439
Speaker 10: the ones we talked to, right, and they they come

1301
01:07:32,480 --> 01:07:35,120
Speaker 10: to the conclusion and the description of themselves as in

1302
01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:38,800
Speaker 10: cells because they've sort of realized that they don't believe

1303
01:07:38,840 --> 01:07:41,680
Speaker 10: that they'll ever have a meaningful relationship with a woman.

1304
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 10: It doesn't mean that they don't want to, It doesn't

1305
01:07:43,560 --> 01:07:45,200
Speaker 10: mean that they haven't tried. It just means that they

1306
01:07:45,240 --> 01:07:47,960
Speaker 10: don't think that they will ever be able to. And

1307
01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:52,960
Speaker 10: they're a little bit more stoic, a little bit more

1308
01:07:53,040 --> 01:07:56,120
Speaker 10: sober in terms of they're talking about their failed relationships.

1309
01:07:56,120 --> 01:07:59,240
Speaker 10: There's a little bit also I might be to blame.

1310
01:08:00,560 --> 01:08:03,080
Speaker 10: I might also have some issues. But then you have

1311
01:08:03,120 --> 01:08:06,600
Speaker 10: this other group which is like, no, women are the problem,

1312
01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:09,760
Speaker 10: they're the enemy. I'm not frustrated, I'm angry. I want

1313
01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:12,400
Speaker 10: all the things that they have good in life are

1314
01:08:12,760 --> 01:08:13,760
Speaker 10: taken from men.

1315
01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:17,280
Speaker 2: Which you know, the root of it is really hard

1316
01:08:17,280 --> 01:08:20,440
Speaker 2: to imagine too, because in many cases these are educated

1317
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:25,080
Speaker 2: young men that come from sometimes really lovely families. You know,

1318
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:27,679
Speaker 2: they have access to a computer, so they have a computer.

1319
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:30,559
Speaker 2: You know, they're they're in a basement, so they're in

1320
01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:34,200
Speaker 2: a house in some cases. So it's like a surprising

1321
01:08:34,280 --> 01:08:36,960
Speaker 2: subculture that's like happening in real time. I think a

1322
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:40,800
Speaker 2: little bit more than certainly more than I expected that

1323
01:08:41,479 --> 01:08:45,320
Speaker 2: you had to really take that in one percent. One

1324
01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:48,599
Speaker 2: point six is probably really where it's at. More than likely,

1325
01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:52,679
Speaker 2: that's an astounding number. Connor, like, that's a lot of men.

1326
01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:56,360
Speaker 2: And how do we protect ourselves as women, and how

1327
01:08:56,360 --> 01:08:59,760
Speaker 2: do we you know, you know, not trigger this kind

1328
01:08:59,800 --> 01:09:02,000
Speaker 2: of behavior, because again, we just saw this in the

1329
01:09:02,000 --> 01:09:04,360
Speaker 2: case that we were covering yesterday in New Jersey. This

1330
01:09:04,439 --> 01:09:08,839
Speaker 2: is an evolving story about the young man who mauled

1331
01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:12,559
Speaker 2: down to girls on their bicycle and a vengeance, and

1332
01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:15,839
Speaker 2: it seemed like he had some of these boxes checked

1333
01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:19,640
Speaker 2: that would be in alignment with some of this ideology.

1334
01:09:19,680 --> 01:09:22,160
Speaker 3: It just seems like it's dark. What do we do?

1335
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:24,160
Speaker 10: Yeah, it is a dark world. I mean, I think

1336
01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:27,040
Speaker 10: one of the things that when I've had conversations about

1337
01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:29,080
Speaker 10: this project with people in the last couple of weeks

1338
01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:31,000
Speaker 10: and I've said, you know, I'm working on a project

1339
01:09:31,080 --> 01:09:34,240
Speaker 10: about in cells, and then immediately everybody's mind goes to

1340
01:09:34,280 --> 01:09:36,800
Speaker 10: who is the most creepiest guy that they've interacted with

1341
01:09:36,840 --> 01:09:39,040
Speaker 10: in the last couple of days. That guy's in it cell.

1342
01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:42,080
Speaker 10: And I've had to actually sort of like correct people

1343
01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:43,760
Speaker 10: a couple of times and said, you know, like, I

1344
01:09:43,840 --> 01:09:46,080
Speaker 10: get that dude's creepy and it might even be dangerous

1345
01:09:46,080 --> 01:09:48,519
Speaker 10: and he's totally odd. I was like, but that doesn't

1346
01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:51,720
Speaker 10: necessarily make you an inseel, right, And I think we

1347
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:54,479
Speaker 10: do tend to pile on and overlap. But like that,

1348
01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:58,439
Speaker 10: there there is a specific community which has given up

1349
01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:00,760
Speaker 10: hope of ever having a relationship with a woman. Some

1350
01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:02,600
Speaker 10: of these guys that are creepy that you interact with

1351
01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:08,040
Speaker 10: are just creepy dudes who write fine girlfriends, wives, partners,

1352
01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:11,920
Speaker 10: and they're not giving up. They're actively looking for women,

1353
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:15,240
Speaker 10: whether or not it's to harm them, to belittle them

1354
01:10:15,280 --> 01:10:18,599
Speaker 10: to have a relationship that's unhealthy. But like, the in

1355
01:10:18,640 --> 01:10:22,320
Speaker 10: cell community is a very specific group, and inside that

1356
01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:27,160
Speaker 10: group you have all sorts of different people, But what

1357
01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:29,920
Speaker 10: I found on the in cell chat boards was a

1358
01:10:29,960 --> 01:10:32,960
Speaker 10: really dark place in which and I heard this from

1359
01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:35,880
Speaker 10: a couple of different people, which is that they often

1360
01:10:36,040 --> 01:10:40,639
Speaker 10: view the message boards the online world as their real world,

1361
01:10:41,240 --> 01:10:45,360
Speaker 10: and their real world as something that is more fake,

1362
01:10:45,520 --> 01:10:46,880
Speaker 10: something that is less real.

1363
01:10:47,320 --> 01:10:49,840
Speaker 6: And I actually wanted to ask you about it. I

1364
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:51,559
Speaker 6: actually wanted to ask you about that. And if you

1365
01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:53,439
Speaker 6: have questions, give us a call eight to eight thirty

1366
01:10:53,439 --> 01:10:57,080
Speaker 6: one crime. How do members of online in cell communities

1367
01:10:57,200 --> 01:11:02,000
Speaker 6: view their online versus i RL lives and identities like

1368
01:11:02,040 --> 01:11:03,360
Speaker 6: their real life identities?

1369
01:11:03,400 --> 01:11:06,439
Speaker 3: Do they separate it out, do you think? Or is

1370
01:11:06,439 --> 01:11:07,479
Speaker 3: it the same? I?

1371
01:11:08,120 --> 01:11:10,360
Speaker 10: No, I mean I think it all depends on what

1372
01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:13,360
Speaker 10: type of person you're talking to. Like I interviewed a

1373
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:16,280
Speaker 10: couple guys who are older in the late thirties early forties,

1374
01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:20,919
Speaker 10: who again have had relationships and they describe themselves as active.

1375
01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:23,880
Speaker 10: They try to stay away from message boards and chatboards

1376
01:11:23,920 --> 01:11:26,200
Speaker 10: because they realize at this point in their lives how

1377
01:11:26,280 --> 01:11:30,680
Speaker 10: toxic and how self harmful it is, you know, destructive

1378
01:11:30,680 --> 01:11:33,960
Speaker 10: it is to them, right, But when you interact and

1379
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:36,240
Speaker 10: read the comments by younger ones, and you can sort

1380
01:11:36,280 --> 01:11:39,879
Speaker 10: of tell the younger ones by the language they're using often.

1381
01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:43,880
Speaker 10: You know, you know, adolescence is a fantastic show, and

1382
01:11:43,920 --> 01:11:46,599
Speaker 10: I think it raises great issues. I'm not sure that

1383
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:50,840
Speaker 10: that kid is your stereotypical in cell in all, honestly,

1384
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:54,080
Speaker 10: I think I would agree getting closer to twenty early twenties,

1385
01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:58,040
Speaker 10: and that's sort of seventeen eighteen nineteen, like, just because

1386
01:11:58,080 --> 01:12:03,200
Speaker 10: of the access to dating and the ability to form

1387
01:12:03,200 --> 01:12:06,280
Speaker 10: relationships outside of your own home, Whereas you get some

1388
01:12:06,360 --> 01:12:10,240
Speaker 10: of these kids who are really toxic in the relationships

1389
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:13,880
Speaker 10: and their language, and they're twenty five year olds living

1390
01:12:13,920 --> 01:12:16,280
Speaker 10: at home. They don't have a job, or maybe their

1391
01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:18,960
Speaker 10: job is an online job, so they're always on their computer.

1392
01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:21,640
Speaker 10: You know. You see a lot of comments about like

1393
01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:25,040
Speaker 10: that on that insul dot I ask or where there

1394
01:12:25,080 --> 01:12:29,240
Speaker 10: is just a lot of vitriol and hate. And that

1395
01:12:30,520 --> 01:12:34,880
Speaker 10: online world for them is the truest form of themselves

1396
01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:37,680
Speaker 10: because it's where they get to say and do and

1397
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:40,960
Speaker 10: be the person they want to be. Funny with their memes,

1398
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:42,759
Speaker 10: angry with their language.

1399
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:45,880
Speaker 6: Yep, the mask is gone, right, they don't have to

1400
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:48,560
Speaker 6: wear that mask. They can just be themselves.

1401
01:12:49,120 --> 01:12:51,559
Speaker 10: Yeah, and this is true self, right, and you hear

1402
01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:53,479
Speaker 10: that a lot, that that's their true selves. And again

1403
01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:56,000
Speaker 10: I put it compared to some of the older ones

1404
01:12:56,040 --> 01:12:58,719
Speaker 10: who said, like I was that person in my twenties,

1405
01:12:59,200 --> 01:13:01,320
Speaker 10: I don't want to be that person in my late thirties.

1406
01:13:01,360 --> 01:13:03,760
Speaker 10: I'm still inceel I realized I'm never going to have

1407
01:13:04,320 --> 01:13:08,200
Speaker 10: a relationship with a woman, probably, but I don't want

1408
01:13:08,240 --> 01:13:09,400
Speaker 10: to be that angry person.

1409
01:13:09,439 --> 01:13:09,560
Speaker 3: You know.

1410
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:13,160
Speaker 10: One of the guys I talked to said, specifically in Brian,

1411
01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:15,160
Speaker 10: is like, I actually do want a relationship. I don't

1412
01:13:15,160 --> 01:13:17,960
Speaker 10: hate women. I'm frustrated with women. I've used language I'm

1413
01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:20,960
Speaker 10: not proud of, but I don't actually hate women. And

1414
01:13:21,200 --> 01:13:23,000
Speaker 10: another one is Venn said to me is like, some

1415
01:13:23,040 --> 01:13:24,800
Speaker 10: of my best friends are women. And that kind of

1416
01:13:24,800 --> 01:13:28,080
Speaker 10: blew my mind. It was it wasn't that they hated

1417
01:13:28,120 --> 01:13:30,200
Speaker 10: all women. It's just they didn't think they would ever

1418
01:13:30,360 --> 01:13:31,599
Speaker 10: have a relationship with.

1419
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:35,920
Speaker 2: A woman, which is so surprising because you know, again,

1420
01:13:36,520 --> 01:13:38,680
Speaker 2: everybody's capable of being in a relationship.

1421
01:13:38,720 --> 01:13:39,599
Speaker 3: I wonder where.

1422
01:13:39,439 --> 01:13:44,280
Speaker 2: That like really does start, where it's never going to happen.

1423
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:46,400
Speaker 2: It does feel like it's a bit of an epidemic

1424
01:13:46,400 --> 01:13:50,160
Speaker 2: about loneliness. You know, I have to assume that COVID

1425
01:13:50,439 --> 01:13:54,320
Speaker 2: and that time period has only exacerbated it, and we're

1426
01:13:54,320 --> 01:13:58,040
Speaker 2: seeing sort of this aftermath thereafter. And again you should

1427
01:13:58,040 --> 01:14:01,880
Speaker 2: definitely listen to the podcast. Need pontificating about it is,

1428
01:14:02,120 --> 01:14:05,480
Speaker 2: you know, not the answer, but there is a correlation

1429
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:08,240
Speaker 2: to some degree. And you know, it's really just a

1430
01:14:08,280 --> 01:14:11,760
Speaker 2: call to attention to change things, right, So a we

1431
01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:15,320
Speaker 2: have to understand it and unpack it and then you know,

1432
01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:17,639
Speaker 2: try to do better, and like, what are the things

1433
01:14:17,680 --> 01:14:21,200
Speaker 2: that women should be aware of? Why are these men

1434
01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:24,920
Speaker 2: getting triggered and young men especially getting triggered so early

1435
01:14:25,000 --> 01:14:26,880
Speaker 2: in such a vi oral way.

1436
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:30,559
Speaker 4: I mean, we do, we definitely do lay out a

1437
01:14:30,640 --> 01:14:33,320
Speaker 4: lot of that, you know, with you said it was

1438
01:14:33,360 --> 01:14:37,840
Speaker 4: a like a real wide spray of different experts to

1439
01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:42,240
Speaker 4: get all the perspective and people who study literally you know,

1440
01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:46,760
Speaker 4: different forms of in seldom as their livings, and there

1441
01:14:46,840 --> 01:14:50,280
Speaker 4: are a lot of things that you can see early on,

1442
01:14:50,640 --> 01:14:54,519
Speaker 4: like little behaviors that can potentially give you a heads

1443
01:14:54,560 --> 01:14:55,120
Speaker 4: up of.

1444
01:14:55,040 --> 01:14:56,000
Speaker 3: What my warning.

1445
01:14:56,920 --> 01:14:59,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, we go into statistics and I love statistics because

1446
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:04,559
Speaker 4: it just talks about likelihoods. So we know without saying

1447
01:15:05,680 --> 01:15:08,880
Speaker 4: your child, your cousin, your anything is an in cell,

1448
01:15:08,960 --> 01:15:09,599
Speaker 4: that's not it.

1449
01:15:09,600 --> 01:15:11,880
Speaker 3: It Statistically, here's.

1450
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:16,000
Speaker 4: What may incline someone to lean into that world in

1451
01:15:16,040 --> 01:15:19,400
Speaker 4: anmbers game. So we lay that out as well as

1452
01:15:19,439 --> 01:15:21,720
Speaker 4: ultimately you know so.

1453
01:15:21,479 --> 01:15:24,040
Speaker 6: Well, We're going to continue this conversation about in Cells

1454
01:15:24,080 --> 01:15:25,280
Speaker 6: with Connor Powell.

1455
01:15:25,360 --> 01:15:28,200
Speaker 3: Award winning journalists and podcast hosts.

1456
01:15:28,439 --> 01:15:30,240
Speaker 6: Keep it right here on True Crime Tonight, we're talking

1457
01:15:30,240 --> 01:15:31,439
Speaker 6: true crime all the time.

1458
01:15:41,760 --> 01:15:44,839
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1459
01:15:44,920 --> 01:15:48,559
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here always

1460
01:15:48,640 --> 01:15:51,479
Speaker 2: with Courtney Armstrong and Body move in. And tonight we

1461
01:15:51,560 --> 01:15:56,160
Speaker 2: have Connor Powell, executive producer and journalist who's been knee

1462
01:15:56,200 --> 01:15:59,880
Speaker 2: deep working with us on our podcast in Cells please

1463
01:16:00,040 --> 01:16:03,920
Speaker 2: downloaded on your iHeartRadio app. And Connor's worked on so

1464
01:16:04,000 --> 01:16:07,559
Speaker 2: many projects with us, and really because he's a deep

1465
01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:11,679
Speaker 2: dive journalist, right, so he essentially goes he goes down.

1466
01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:14,479
Speaker 2: I mean, we did Death Island with him, and that

1467
01:16:14,560 --> 01:16:17,240
Speaker 2: was an island where everybody died. When you move on everybody,

1468
01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:21,599
Speaker 2: I'm really overstating here, but tourists would go there and

1469
01:16:22,520 --> 01:16:26,760
Speaker 2: suddenly mysteriously die. And then Connor was volunteering to go

1470
01:16:26,800 --> 01:16:29,720
Speaker 2: to Death Island Day one, just him and like a

1471
01:16:30,520 --> 01:16:34,439
Speaker 2: like eyeglasses. Yeah, I was like, Connor, what are you doing?

1472
01:16:34,880 --> 01:16:36,679
Speaker 2: And this is the kind of thing he does all

1473
01:16:36,720 --> 01:16:39,000
Speaker 2: the time. So to hear you say that in Cells

1474
01:16:39,080 --> 01:16:43,200
Speaker 2: even for you was too dark, is pretty extraordinary.

1475
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:44,840
Speaker 10: How did you stay with it?

1476
01:16:44,880 --> 01:16:46,320
Speaker 3: Then? Why didn't you just bail?

1477
01:16:46,920 --> 01:16:49,360
Speaker 10: I think to say about this podcast with in Cels,

1478
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:51,640
Speaker 10: you know we know this word, right, Everyone sort of

1479
01:16:51,680 --> 01:16:55,439
Speaker 10: has an idea of what the phrase is, but hasn't

1480
01:16:55,479 --> 01:16:58,400
Speaker 10: really been fully explained. And I think you know, as

1481
01:16:58,400 --> 01:17:00,479
Speaker 10: you listen to this podcast and you get into the

1482
01:17:00,520 --> 01:17:02,599
Speaker 10: world of intellers, there's all these new phrases that are

1483
01:17:02,600 --> 01:17:06,320
Speaker 10: going to start popping up. A trans maxine, looks maxim,

1484
01:17:07,479 --> 01:17:10,760
Speaker 10: red pill black, There's all these phrases that you're like, oh,

1485
01:17:10,960 --> 01:17:13,040
Speaker 10: maybe I've seen somebody talk about that, but I don't

1486
01:17:13,040 --> 01:17:17,360
Speaker 10: really know or understand anything. And I think this series,

1487
01:17:18,040 --> 01:17:20,320
Speaker 10: unlike some of the other true crime series where you

1488
01:17:20,400 --> 01:17:24,360
Speaker 10: understand you know, murder first three, second degree manslaughter, you know,

1489
01:17:24,640 --> 01:17:29,120
Speaker 10: a mode of an alibi, this series with in Cells

1490
01:17:29,200 --> 01:17:31,840
Speaker 10: are is going to take you into some rooms in

1491
01:17:31,920 --> 01:17:34,559
Speaker 10: some places that you've just never heard or thought you'd

1492
01:17:34,600 --> 01:17:35,720
Speaker 10: be going into.

1493
01:17:36,600 --> 01:17:39,439
Speaker 6: Have you run have you run across people on those

1494
01:17:39,439 --> 01:17:41,000
Speaker 6: forms that are transmasking at all.

1495
01:17:42,439 --> 01:17:44,960
Speaker 10: So I've talked to people about this, and I've done

1496
01:17:44,960 --> 01:17:49,360
Speaker 10: some interviews, and it's best I can tell. It's not

1497
01:17:49,560 --> 01:17:53,559
Speaker 10: really a true thing. Okay. That's why mask Maxine is

1498
01:17:53,600 --> 01:17:58,760
Speaker 10: the idea that there are in cell men who view

1499
01:17:58,880 --> 01:18:01,400
Speaker 10: that women have it sort of better in the world,

1500
01:18:01,400 --> 01:18:05,000
Speaker 10: and so the best way out of your lot in life,

1501
01:18:05,040 --> 01:18:07,760
Speaker 10: your situation where you're a miserable and unhappy in cell,

1502
01:18:07,880 --> 01:18:11,719
Speaker 10: is that you should become trans and you should basically

1503
01:18:11,800 --> 01:18:14,360
Speaker 10: assume the identity of a woman, because then you'll get

1504
01:18:14,520 --> 01:18:17,880
Speaker 10: things like men to pay for you at dinner, you'll

1505
01:18:17,920 --> 01:18:21,479
Speaker 10: get cheaper car insurance. You know. I spoke to one

1506
01:18:21,479 --> 01:18:24,240
Speaker 10: person who sort of described it as is more of

1507
01:18:24,240 --> 01:18:28,000
Speaker 10: a transphobic trope as opposed to a real thing. There

1508
01:18:28,320 --> 01:18:33,440
Speaker 10: there are, I think potentially people who are like exploring

1509
01:18:33,479 --> 01:18:35,800
Speaker 10: it as an idea, but as a part of the

1510
01:18:35,960 --> 01:18:38,440
Speaker 10: trans sorry, as a part of the in cell community.

1511
01:18:39,000 --> 01:18:41,519
Speaker 10: It's really just more used as a trope to sort

1512
01:18:41,560 --> 01:18:44,920
Speaker 10: of a little trans people women in general. Right, like

1513
01:18:45,280 --> 01:18:49,400
Speaker 10: the idea that women have it so much easier because

1514
01:18:49,400 --> 01:18:53,240
Speaker 10: they get cheaper car insurance, right, that's kind of like, oh, look,

1515
01:18:53,240 --> 01:18:56,400
Speaker 10: how great women have it, and that's sort of the

1516
01:18:56,439 --> 01:18:58,559
Speaker 10: trope that they're using over and over and over again

1517
01:18:58,640 --> 01:19:02,280
Speaker 10: on these message boards. It looks Maxine is probably a

1518
01:19:02,400 --> 01:19:06,080
Speaker 10: way more true concept in the in cell world, and

1519
01:19:06,120 --> 01:19:08,519
Speaker 10: that's the idea that basically, you want to look your best,

1520
01:19:08,520 --> 01:19:12,400
Speaker 10: and you're willing to do things that might help you

1521
01:19:12,600 --> 01:19:16,519
Speaker 10: attract women. You know, you are entering the world of

1522
01:19:16,560 --> 01:19:18,840
Speaker 10: the chad who is sort of the derogatory term for

1523
01:19:19,000 --> 01:19:22,360
Speaker 10: men who you know, have relationships, and so you'll do

1524
01:19:22,479 --> 01:19:26,559
Speaker 10: things like chiseling your face or taking different drugs to

1525
01:19:26,600 --> 01:19:29,120
Speaker 10: help with things that make you look better and things

1526
01:19:29,160 --> 01:19:33,920
Speaker 10: like that, and that is definitely a way more probably

1527
01:19:34,240 --> 01:19:37,120
Speaker 10: a true concept in the in cell world, and even

1528
01:19:37,160 --> 01:19:39,480
Speaker 10: Adam not one hundred percent sure how many are doing it.

1529
01:19:39,080 --> 01:19:41,320
Speaker 10: But there's also sort of a self harm that you

1530
01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:44,320
Speaker 10: will go so far in trying to fix yourself that

1531
01:19:44,360 --> 01:19:46,840
Speaker 10: you cause yourself harm, and therefore you're back in the

1532
01:19:46,880 --> 01:19:49,679
Speaker 10: cycle of why am I doing this for women? I'm

1533
01:19:49,720 --> 01:19:52,400
Speaker 10: doing this and I'm hurting myself and now I don't

1534
01:19:52,400 --> 01:19:55,320
Speaker 10: have women, and now I'm just angry at women. So

1535
01:19:55,320 --> 01:19:57,360
Speaker 10: there's sort of like this circular.

1536
01:19:57,920 --> 01:20:01,880
Speaker 2: Right like what you want so badly is what's making

1537
01:20:01,920 --> 01:20:04,880
Speaker 2: you so enraged, which is sort of this double edged sword.

1538
01:20:04,920 --> 01:20:06,479
Speaker 2: And by the way, if you're just joining us, you're

1539
01:20:06,520 --> 01:20:09,439
Speaker 2: listening to True Crime tonight and we're talking about in Cells,

1540
01:20:09,479 --> 01:20:13,160
Speaker 2: which is our new podcast that is out on iHeart.

1541
01:20:13,200 --> 01:20:15,880
Speaker 2: We hope you'll check it out because Connor Powell is

1542
01:20:15,880 --> 01:20:19,000
Speaker 2: with us and he has been he's been going deep

1543
01:20:19,200 --> 01:20:22,479
Speaker 2: down this down in this topic. And you know, one

1544
01:20:22,520 --> 01:20:25,240
Speaker 2: thing I think that was really interesting also on the

1545
01:20:25,280 --> 01:20:28,600
Speaker 2: in Cell front, was just the idea of this algorithm,

1546
01:20:28,680 --> 01:20:33,160
Speaker 2: right that you know, the dark web is really looking

1547
01:20:33,400 --> 01:20:40,000
Speaker 2: for and targeting specifically disenfranchised young men who might be

1548
01:20:40,120 --> 01:20:43,800
Speaker 2: susceptible to this type of thing. So remember when you're

1549
01:20:43,880 --> 01:20:46,559
Speaker 2: you know, clicking away on Instagram or we're clicking away

1550
01:20:46,600 --> 01:20:50,520
Speaker 2: on whatever it is we click away on, that algorithm

1551
01:20:50,600 --> 01:20:53,080
Speaker 2: is feeding the beast and now you're getting more of

1552
01:20:53,080 --> 01:20:55,519
Speaker 2: it and more of it, and it escalates and is

1553
01:20:55,640 --> 01:20:59,360
Speaker 2: meant to escalate. That's like, that's the secret sauce, and

1554
01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:02,400
Speaker 2: those I thank you guys do an amazing job of

1555
01:21:02,560 --> 01:21:03,400
Speaker 2: breaking it down.

1556
01:21:04,000 --> 01:21:05,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, the algorithm is everything.

1557
01:21:05,880 --> 01:21:08,920
Speaker 4: The algorithm is everything, and there is definitely a very

1558
01:21:08,960 --> 01:21:12,520
Speaker 4: deep dive on that and just hearing it from different perspectives.

1559
01:21:12,520 --> 01:21:15,840
Speaker 4: And here's where a little bit it's Stephanie, you asked,

1560
01:21:15,880 --> 01:21:18,040
Speaker 4: you know, what to look out for? How is it

1561
01:21:18,080 --> 01:21:23,519
Speaker 4: possible to prevent There was one man, boysend Hodgson, that

1562
01:21:23,600 --> 01:21:28,680
Speaker 4: we interviewed, and he's really wonderfully knowledgeable, you know, and

1563
01:21:28,720 --> 01:21:30,519
Speaker 4: he drew the analogy. He's like, you know, you have

1564
01:21:30,600 --> 01:21:34,720
Speaker 4: an eleven year old boy who goes on and just

1565
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:39,720
Speaker 4: I'm lonely. Well, ten clicks later because of what you

1566
01:21:39,720 --> 01:21:43,200
Speaker 4: said as the algorithm likes to incite, to keep you

1567
01:21:43,520 --> 01:21:47,640
Speaker 4: drawn in and keep you online because of course that's

1568
01:21:47,680 --> 01:21:49,880
Speaker 4: how people make their money on their ads. But so

1569
01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:55,040
Speaker 4: the content ratchets up and ratchets up. And several of

1570
01:21:55,400 --> 01:21:59,240
Speaker 4: the self identified in cells who were incredibly generous with

1571
01:21:59,280 --> 01:22:02,280
Speaker 4: their time and spoke with us as a way of understanding,

1572
01:22:02,280 --> 01:22:05,400
Speaker 4: and every single one wrapped it up with I think

1573
01:22:05,439 --> 01:22:08,439
Speaker 4: people need to hear from us, and so do we.

1574
01:22:08,560 --> 01:22:09,679
Speaker 3: It's important to understand.

1575
01:22:10,720 --> 01:22:14,400
Speaker 4: But it's just it's easy to accidentally click starting from

1576
01:22:15,280 --> 01:22:20,600
Speaker 4: I'm lonely, Yeah, I'm sad. It just can start very innocuously.

1577
01:22:21,000 --> 01:22:23,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, it'd start innocently right, and then it just turns

1578
01:22:23,320 --> 01:22:29,640
Speaker 6: into possibly a violent hate machine of just constant regurgitating

1579
01:22:29,840 --> 01:22:36,320
Speaker 6: the same memes and tropes and reaffirming behavior. Right, and

1580
01:22:36,600 --> 01:22:39,520
Speaker 6: you know you only those people are going to understand

1581
01:22:39,640 --> 01:22:42,479
Speaker 6: your language, right, your fellow and cels.

1582
01:22:42,560 --> 01:22:42,800
Speaker 5: Well.

1583
01:22:42,800 --> 01:22:45,559
Speaker 10: One of the things I thought was like really interesting

1584
01:22:45,680 --> 01:22:49,559
Speaker 10: going down deep into this world was so many of

1585
01:22:49,600 --> 01:22:54,240
Speaker 10: the conversations about relationships about women about men are these

1586
01:22:55,240 --> 01:22:58,280
Speaker 10: almost comical social media things. Like all of the women

1587
01:22:58,360 --> 01:23:00,960
Speaker 10: they were describing in all out of these sites are

1588
01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:05,960
Speaker 10: sort of the the Instagram model, right and saies. Yeah,

1589
01:23:06,080 --> 01:23:10,200
Speaker 10: and it's like, yeah, this world only.

1590
01:23:10,040 --> 01:23:12,519
Speaker 3: Real world either though it's not the real world.

1591
01:23:12,560 --> 01:23:14,040
Speaker 10: Its on social.

1592
01:23:13,840 --> 01:23:18,600
Speaker 2: Media exactly, Like they're hating this a specific kind of

1593
01:23:18,680 --> 01:23:22,920
Speaker 2: woman who they're seeing in their mind's eye as these

1594
01:23:23,040 --> 01:23:27,880
Speaker 2: you know, beautiful, perfect, you know, Barbie types that are

1595
01:23:27,920 --> 01:23:32,760
Speaker 2: being dismissive of them because they will never have the

1596
01:23:32,920 --> 01:23:36,640
Speaker 2: Ken vibe and they call themselves you know, chads or

1597
01:23:36,680 --> 01:23:39,800
Speaker 2: who they But again, it's like that's not the real

1598
01:23:39,840 --> 01:23:43,559
Speaker 2: world either, you know, like everybody's putting this weird front

1599
01:23:43,720 --> 01:23:48,360
Speaker 2: on on social media. It's very curating, this really curated

1600
01:23:48,400 --> 01:23:50,320
Speaker 2: weird piece that we're all living in.

1601
01:23:50,560 --> 01:23:53,720
Speaker 10: And so many of the men that they idolize, who

1602
01:23:53,760 --> 01:23:57,000
Speaker 10: are selling them recipes for success, you know, subscribe to

1603
01:23:57,040 --> 01:24:00,640
Speaker 10: my whatever weekly email. My I'll do it. There's a

1604
01:24:00,640 --> 01:24:03,840
Speaker 10: lot of life coaches out there that are not in

1605
01:24:03,920 --> 01:24:06,760
Speaker 10: sells themselves, but are sort of selling that sauce, that

1606
01:24:06,880 --> 01:24:10,680
Speaker 10: recipe of like you're unhappy, you're unsuccessful because you're not

1607
01:24:10,800 --> 01:24:13,200
Speaker 10: doing this. These people are screwing you over. But if

1608
01:24:13,200 --> 01:24:16,320
Speaker 10: you follow my path, here's a recipe for success. And

1609
01:24:16,640 --> 01:24:21,160
Speaker 10: those life coaches they take some of these kids, I

1610
01:24:21,200 --> 01:24:24,040
Speaker 10: don't say kids, teenagers, young men into some really dark

1611
01:24:24,080 --> 01:24:31,360
Speaker 10: places very quickly, all to sell them, you know, medicines, vitamins,

1612
01:24:32,200 --> 01:24:36,320
Speaker 10: self help books, real estate planning guides. You know, like

1613
01:24:36,560 --> 01:24:39,160
Speaker 10: it just gets very dark very quickly. And so many

1614
01:24:39,160 --> 01:24:42,360
Speaker 10: of these men, men that I researched, so many of

1615
01:24:42,439 --> 01:24:45,160
Speaker 10: them are sort of failed businessmen. They've got a lot

1616
01:24:45,200 --> 01:24:48,560
Speaker 10: of them have like accusations of criminal misconduct on the

1617
01:24:48,680 --> 01:24:52,439
Speaker 10: real estate deals, or you know that they were getting

1618
01:24:52,640 --> 01:24:55,599
Speaker 10: drunk and getting into serious fights, you know, fifteen years

1619
01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:58,439
Speaker 10: ago and stuff. And so a lot of the men

1620
01:24:58,479 --> 01:25:00,320
Speaker 10: that are held up as the sort of these are

1621
01:25:00,360 --> 01:25:03,200
Speaker 10: the men you want to be are really problematic in

1622
01:25:03,240 --> 01:25:05,280
Speaker 10: their own right as well. But they're the ones that

1623
01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:08,519
Speaker 10: are being held up as here's the model man you

1624
01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:08,960
Speaker 10: want to be.

1625
01:25:10,160 --> 01:25:15,679
Speaker 4: Andrew Tait is called out in by almost every person

1626
01:25:15,760 --> 01:25:21,360
Speaker 4: we've spoken to as the archetype of who many members

1627
01:25:21,360 --> 01:25:22,799
Speaker 4: of the in cell community they.

1628
01:25:22,640 --> 01:25:24,799
Speaker 3: Do, they look to, they aspire to, they will.

1629
01:25:24,600 --> 01:25:28,519
Speaker 4: Pay that money out that you mentioned Connor to try

1630
01:25:28,560 --> 01:25:29,519
Speaker 4: and be more like.

1631
01:25:31,240 --> 01:25:33,760
Speaker 6: And that's problematic in and of its own right, the

1632
01:25:33,800 --> 01:25:37,599
Speaker 6: whole Andrew Kate situation, that's very problematic.

1633
01:25:37,640 --> 01:25:38,720
Speaker 5: Very yeah.

1634
01:25:38,720 --> 01:25:41,360
Speaker 10: And you know he's not an inceel, right, but he's

1635
01:25:41,400 --> 01:25:42,599
Speaker 10: like Noel influence.

1636
01:25:42,640 --> 01:25:46,360
Speaker 6: He's an alpha. He's an alpha in cell influencer.

1637
01:25:46,479 --> 01:25:49,639
Speaker 3: Let's say. Yeah, and is it just me like.

1638
01:25:49,600 --> 01:25:54,080
Speaker 2: There does seem to be this you know, really unmeasurable

1639
01:25:54,200 --> 01:26:00,000
Speaker 2: uptick of the lone wolf, right, the single oh yeah,

1640
01:26:00,120 --> 01:26:04,360
Speaker 2: young man who's taking matters into his own hands once

1641
01:26:04,400 --> 01:26:07,439
Speaker 2: and for all. Hey, I'll leave a manifesto and take

1642
01:26:07,479 --> 01:26:10,960
Speaker 2: somebody out and for some you know, message in their mind.

1643
01:26:11,560 --> 01:26:13,920
Speaker 2: And that's really hard for law enforcement to track.

1644
01:26:14,040 --> 01:26:14,160
Speaker 5: Right.

1645
01:26:14,320 --> 01:26:17,080
Speaker 2: So we're not really looking for groups online so much

1646
01:26:17,080 --> 01:26:19,960
Speaker 2: as much as you're looking for individuals who have gone wayward.

1647
01:26:20,000 --> 01:26:23,200
Speaker 3: We're being sucked into groups. So it becomes really.

1648
01:26:23,040 --> 01:26:25,760
Speaker 2: Complicated to monitor as well. And I guess that was

1649
01:26:25,760 --> 01:26:28,240
Speaker 2: another one of the scary things too, is you know,

1650
01:26:28,400 --> 01:26:31,200
Speaker 2: again we're on the dark web not so much now,

1651
01:26:31,200 --> 01:26:35,519
Speaker 2: we're just it's here. It's like in in popular culture,

1652
01:26:35,600 --> 01:26:37,719
Speaker 2: it's now that we've said the word. If you hadn't

1653
01:26:37,760 --> 01:26:40,880
Speaker 2: heard the word in cell before, I promise you you'll

1654
01:26:40,880 --> 01:26:45,040
Speaker 2: hear it again and again and again. It's becoming common,

1655
01:26:45,760 --> 01:26:47,439
Speaker 2: and these attacks are becoming common.

1656
01:26:48,760 --> 01:26:51,519
Speaker 10: I don't know how law enforcement, if you go on these,

1657
01:26:51,560 --> 01:26:53,639
Speaker 10: like in cell chatboards, I don't know how you could

1658
01:26:53,800 --> 01:26:58,080
Speaker 10: determine who's a serious threat and who's not, because the

1659
01:26:58,200 --> 01:27:01,640
Speaker 10: language is so vile and a taller the place, and

1660
01:27:01,640 --> 01:27:03,479
Speaker 10: it's just being thrown out. I mean there's there's no

1661
01:27:04,360 --> 01:27:06,360
Speaker 10: you know, on Intel do COE or Intel do I

1662
01:27:06,920 --> 01:27:10,240
Speaker 10: or even like Discord or four Chen, Like the language

1663
01:27:10,280 --> 01:27:13,519
Speaker 10: is all vile, and so I don't know if you

1664
01:27:13,520 --> 01:27:15,280
Speaker 10: were law enforcement, you could be like, Okay, well that

1665
01:27:15,320 --> 01:27:17,320
Speaker 10: guy seems okay, he's not going to go shoot an

1666
01:27:17,400 --> 01:27:18,800
Speaker 10: or but that guy seems like he's going to go

1667
01:27:18,800 --> 01:27:21,040
Speaker 10: shoot on everyone, because like you can look at all

1668
01:27:21,080 --> 01:27:24,280
Speaker 10: of the posts and say, all of these guys should be.

1669
01:27:24,320 --> 01:27:28,120
Speaker 3: On our radar, right, yeah, violent.

1670
01:27:27,880 --> 01:27:30,920
Speaker 2: Right, so many of them are living at home without jobs. So,

1671
01:27:31,160 --> 01:27:34,680
Speaker 2: you know, for parents, is there something that moms and

1672
01:27:34,760 --> 01:27:36,800
Speaker 2: dads should be aware of that they should be doing

1673
01:27:37,520 --> 01:27:39,519
Speaker 2: just in a very simple form. I know we only

1674
01:27:39,560 --> 01:27:41,640
Speaker 2: have a few moments, but was there some sort of

1675
01:27:41,840 --> 01:27:42,759
Speaker 2: iconic takeaway?

1676
01:27:45,040 --> 01:27:49,040
Speaker 10: I think, you know, the I was also some on

1677
01:27:49,080 --> 01:27:52,640
Speaker 10: some message boards where there were people who were concerned

1678
01:27:52,680 --> 01:27:56,679
Speaker 10: about their brothers or their friends, and listening to those

1679
01:27:56,720 --> 01:28:01,440
Speaker 10: stories and reading those stories about what trigger their concerns

1680
01:28:01,479 --> 01:28:04,320
Speaker 10: about the you know, their brother or their their friend.

1681
01:28:04,960 --> 01:28:09,040
Speaker 10: You know, it often was increasingly spending time alone, increasingly

1682
01:28:09,080 --> 01:28:15,360
Speaker 10: being detached from their family, increasingly you know, they're they're

1683
01:28:15,400 --> 01:28:19,479
Speaker 10: they're helped, their their appearance, right, was starting to slip

1684
01:28:19,479 --> 01:28:21,960
Speaker 10: and things like So again, it's not stuff that's out

1685
01:28:21,960 --> 01:28:25,720
Speaker 10: of the ordinary for concern for other people, right, you know,

1686
01:28:25,800 --> 01:28:29,240
Speaker 10: their their their inability to connect with other people, their

1687
01:28:29,240 --> 01:28:31,759
Speaker 10: inability to take care of their sort of personal appearance.

1688
01:28:31,960 --> 01:28:34,559
Speaker 10: Like these are all things that would be concerning of

1689
01:28:34,600 --> 01:28:36,880
Speaker 10: a fifty two year old man who's starting to slip

1690
01:28:36,920 --> 01:28:39,599
Speaker 10: for another reason, right, But these are all things that

1691
01:28:39,640 --> 01:28:42,080
Speaker 10: I think the people who have loved ones who they

1692
01:28:42,080 --> 01:28:45,360
Speaker 10: were concerned about we're all raising as red flags, you know,

1693
01:28:46,000 --> 01:28:48,559
Speaker 10: saying things that were out of the ordinary that they

1694
01:28:48,560 --> 01:28:51,880
Speaker 10: weren't saying six months ago or two years ago. Their

1695
01:28:52,040 --> 01:28:54,400
Speaker 10: their behavior was starting to change. I mean, those are

1696
01:28:54,439 --> 01:28:58,240
Speaker 10: things I think that the friends and families were really

1697
01:28:58,280 --> 01:29:01,760
Speaker 10: starting to hone in on about. These are the concerns,

1698
01:29:01,960 --> 01:29:04,360
Speaker 10: These are what you need to look for if somebody

1699
01:29:04,439 --> 01:29:07,559
Speaker 10: is going from an inceel on a message board to

1700
01:29:07,680 --> 01:29:10,760
Speaker 10: somebody who might actually potentially do something more destructive.

1701
01:29:11,720 --> 01:29:14,559
Speaker 2: Wow, and you have to watch adolescents and you just

1702
01:29:14,600 --> 01:29:17,400
Speaker 2: have to watch it. It's such a great setup for

1703
01:29:17,439 --> 01:29:18,240
Speaker 2: this conversation.

1704
01:29:18,439 --> 01:29:21,280
Speaker 4: It is I'm just going to say a big takeaway

1705
01:29:21,360 --> 01:29:25,400
Speaker 4: that was across the board and I got no solution

1706
01:29:25,560 --> 01:29:29,240
Speaker 4: for this, but it was stay off of Basically this

1707
01:29:29,280 --> 01:29:32,240
Speaker 4: community that you've now joined, where you feel like you're

1708
01:29:32,280 --> 01:29:36,880
Speaker 4: being heard, but almost across the board also brings you down,

1709
01:29:37,040 --> 01:29:40,639
Speaker 4: sucks you in deeper, You leave more depressed every single day.

1710
01:29:41,040 --> 01:29:44,520
Speaker 4: This is both firsthand and clinical psychologist results.

1711
01:29:45,240 --> 01:29:47,040
Speaker 10: Well, I think one of the things that I saw

1712
01:29:47,200 --> 01:29:50,639
Speaker 10: on the really vile boards, you know, discord, four chan,

1713
01:29:51,360 --> 01:29:58,160
Speaker 10: in cel, is the anonymity, the ability to be someone else,

1714
01:29:58,280 --> 01:30:02,639
Speaker 10: you know, just a meme or a fake name. Those

1715
01:30:02,640 --> 01:30:05,559
Speaker 10: are the places where you really solve the problems because

1716
01:30:05,560 --> 01:30:09,240
Speaker 10: those are the places where there is no sort of responsibility.

1717
01:30:09,240 --> 01:30:12,800
Speaker 10: There was no restrictions on Facebook and some of these

1718
01:30:12,800 --> 01:30:16,559
Speaker 10: other sites that do have some regulations, some restrictions. You

1719
01:30:16,600 --> 01:30:19,000
Speaker 10: saw people using their real names and it was much

1720
01:30:19,120 --> 01:30:22,800
Speaker 10: more calm, maybe still anger and frustration, but it wasn't

1721
01:30:22,800 --> 01:30:26,160
Speaker 10: the same environment. And so like I think, if you

1722
01:30:26,160 --> 01:30:29,040
Speaker 10: know those environments where they're able to protect themselves and

1723
01:30:29,479 --> 01:30:32,160
Speaker 10: say whatever they want because there's no name associated with

1724
01:30:32,200 --> 01:30:34,800
Speaker 10: that language, those are the places that are really the

1725
01:30:34,840 --> 01:30:35,800
Speaker 10: most dangerous.

1726
01:30:36,000 --> 01:30:38,320
Speaker 2: Connor, we love having you here. I love being here

1727
01:30:38,400 --> 01:30:39,759
Speaker 2: again again and again.

1728
01:30:40,000 --> 01:30:40,280
Speaker 8: O G.

1729
01:30:40,600 --> 01:30:43,080
Speaker 2: Connor has been with us, And make sure you also

1730
01:30:43,240 --> 01:30:47,440
Speaker 2: check out the Opportunist podcast that he executive produced.

1731
01:30:47,560 --> 01:30:48,559
Speaker 3: Connor is the real deal.

1732
01:30:48,680 --> 01:30:51,280
Speaker 2: So we keep trying to drag them back into the family,

1733
01:30:51,280 --> 01:30:53,400
Speaker 2: where like Connor, you can try to go off and

1734
01:30:53,439 --> 01:30:56,040
Speaker 2: do all these big fancy shmancy things, but we're going

1735
01:30:56,120 --> 01:30:59,639
Speaker 2: to keep dragging you back and dragging you back as

1736
01:30:59,640 --> 01:31:02,519
Speaker 2: many times as possible. So check out in Cells and

1737
01:31:02,640 --> 01:31:04,960
Speaker 2: remember it's talk Back Tuesday tomorrow, so make sure you

1738
01:31:04,960 --> 01:31:08,479
Speaker 2: start leaving those talkbacks for us. Is download the iHeartRadio app.

1739
01:31:08,680 --> 01:31:11,679
Speaker 2: It's been an extraordinary night. Thank you Connor for being here,

1740
01:31:11,920 --> 01:31:14,400
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening True Crime tonight. We will be

1741
01:31:14,520 --> 01:31:15,160
Speaker 2: back tomorrow.

1742
01:31:15,439 --> 01:31:16,639
Speaker 3: Stay Sae mad night