1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories with 2 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,919 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. I'm executive producer Jackie Howard. The story of 3 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: Matthew Coleman and his two children has horrified the country. 4 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,639 Speaker 1: Matthew Coleman, the founder of Love Water Surfing School, and 5 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: his family were intending to go camping, but Coleman took 6 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: his two children and left without his wife. He ignored 7 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,879 Speaker 1: text and calls from her. She had to use the 8 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 1: find my Phone function on her laptop to find out 9 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,839 Speaker 1: where Matthew Coleman had taken his children. They were in 10 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: Rosa Rita, Mexico. That's a beach town about sixteen miles 11 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: south of the border city of Tijuana. The children's bodies 12 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: were found by a farm worker at a ranch in 13 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: Baja California. They had been dumped in the brush. The 14 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: little girl, ten month old Rocks, He had been shot 15 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 1: twelve times. The boy, two year old Kalio, had been 16 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 1: shot seventeen times, and the weapon of choice was a 17 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: spear phishing gun. Matthew told agents that he had been 18 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: receiving signs and visions that his wife was possessed by 19 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: serpent DNA and had passed it on to his children. 20 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 1: They were going to grow up to be monsters, so 21 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: he had to kill them. Joining me today is Joe 22 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University and 23 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet. Joe, first, let's talk 24 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: about the weapon and what that weapon would do to 25 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: a body. He used a spear fishing gun. What are 26 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:53,559 Speaker 1: we actually talking about. I don't know that I have ever, 27 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: and I mean ever encountered a case like this. The 28 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: level of brutality this, it's I think the only term 29 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: I could really use is probably barbaric um. Because here 30 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: you have a father that hash has been around spear 31 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: fishing for a while. You know, he ran the surf school, 32 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: and when they promote the surf school, it's not just surfing, 33 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: they actually talk about spear fishing in the advertisement, So 34 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:26,239 Speaker 1: that gives you an indication that he knows how these 35 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: how this device is actually utilized, and what it can 36 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: actually do. Spear fishing is used to. I mean, people 37 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: go out and hunt sharks underwater with these things. Jackie 38 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 1: and they they operate on one of two ways, and 39 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: it's kind of kind of interesting, at least from from 40 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: a utility standpoint, they You can either have them that 41 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:55,239 Speaker 1: operate off of a slingshot based platform where you pull 42 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 1: back the big rubber bands and they hook and then 43 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: they go onto the bub The bolt is actually what 44 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: you would think about as the arrow, and it slides 45 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: down a rail, you aim it at, pull the trigger 46 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: and you aim it at what you're shooting at, and 47 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: then the spear shoots out. It goes into the side 48 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: of the target. And what is really barbaric about this 49 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: is that it does have a point on it, but 50 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 1: it's also got these little fins sometimes that will deploy 51 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: on the side, so that when you aim this thing 52 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 1: and fire it into the target, if you try to 53 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: pull it out, it hangs up on these fins that 54 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: are deployed, so they're kind of spring loaded. The fact 55 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: that he utilized this particular weapon is absolutely gruesome. Now 56 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: there is another kind that works on compressed air, but 57 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: it takes a long time to pump this thing up. 58 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: My suspicion is this is probably rubber band operated, but 59 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: you know, when you think about the number of times 60 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: that he shot these kids, and yeah, it takes a 61 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: long period of time to reload this thing because you 62 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: have to pull back the rubber band, reinsert the bold, 63 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: then aim it and fire it. He shot them over 64 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 1: and over and over and over again. And when you 65 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: look at this, this would not have happened quickly. This 66 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: would have taken I would say, at least going through 67 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: loading process. It would have taken him probably roughly about 68 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: probably about twelve to fifteen minutes just to shoot one 69 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: of these kids over and over again because it cycles 70 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: so slowly. Well, now, that's if he indeed used the 71 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: gun every time. Wouldn't it seem more likely that he 72 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: did this manually if he did it once. I mean, 73 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: we're still waiting to find out some of this information. 74 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: But if let's say he did it the first time 75 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: expecting the child to die immediately and the child didn't, 76 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: wouldn't do you think it would be more likely that 77 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: at that point that he started manually stabbing the child 78 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: to have been able to stab them that many times. 79 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: You know, this thought has crossed my mind as well, 80 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: and it is possible. It's certainly possible. One of the 81 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: problems that you encounter with this, if you're stabbing someone 82 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 1: with one of these spears or bolts, to take this 83 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: bolt and drive it into the body of these children 84 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 1: over and over and over again, would give you an 85 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: indication that potentially the bolt would have become deformed over 86 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:36,559 Speaker 1: a period of time because the shaft is not quite 87 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: resilient enough to take that kind of pressure. So, you know, 88 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 1: it does give us pause, doesn't it, And it raises 89 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 1: to a whole new level the level of horror if 90 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: we begin to think about that he would slowly reload 91 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 1: this thing every single time and then fire it into 92 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: the body, as opposed to standing over the body and 93 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: drive the bolt over and over again. One of the 94 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,559 Speaker 1: things they're going to be looking for in this particular case, 95 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: or these cases, since we have two children, is how 96 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: closely concentrated these injuries are. Remember, a spear fishing gun 97 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: is not like shooting a rifle where you can put 98 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 1: the round actually in target very very tightly. It doesn't 99 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 1: have rifling. It doesn't even have like little feathers like 100 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:29,239 Speaker 1: you see with an arrow on the back end of it. 101 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: It has nothing like that to kind of guide it. 102 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 1: So when you fire the spear fishing gun at something 103 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: at a target, it actually spreads out over a large 104 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 1: over a large area. You won't consistently hit the same 105 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 1: area every time. If you're firing at a great distance 106 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: or even at an intermediate distance. So if you have 107 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: this highly concentrated area of these defects in the body, 108 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: there's a higher likelihood that he probably stood directly over 109 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 1: the bodies as they're laying on the ground, driving this 110 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: bolt in and out of the bodies. Following up on that, Joe, 111 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: knowing the difficulties in being that precise, what is the 112 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: likelihood that the child died with the first shot? I 113 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: would say if he was able to kill either one 114 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: of these children with the first shot, it would be 115 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: a miracle shot. It's not something that is going to 116 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: happen immediately. It's not going to have the same ballistic 117 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: effect as a bullet on target. That's so highly destructive, 118 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: and a lot of that destruction that you get with 119 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: a bullet has to do with the displacement of energy 120 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: or the force that's behind the bullet when it can 121 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,679 Speaker 1: disrupt all sorts of things. But there is very little 122 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: kinetic force with an arrow as it penetrates the body, 123 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: so you're not going to get as much tissue disruption, 124 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: but it's very very painful. So that goes to the 125 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: mode here. If he sensed that the child was not 126 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: dying immediately, I'm sure he would fly into into rage 127 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: and then continue to stab the body over and over 128 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: until the child was rendered deceased. But did he did it? 129 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: But he did it to the two children, It would 130 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: seem as though that one of the children would have 131 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: at least given him an indication as to the lack 132 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: of lethality, if you will, of the weapon itself, that 133 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: you would need to do this more exacting. So why 134 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: do you continue to use this weapon that you're not 135 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: actually killing them with in the immediate Why would this happen? 136 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 1: Why are there so many injuries to the body. So 137 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: I think that it goes beyond just the utilization of 138 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:44,839 Speaker 1: the spear fishing weapon as an actual tool of homicide. 139 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: It goes to something deeper. It goes to something darker. 140 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: Remember this guy actually believed that his children were inhabited 141 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 1: or that they were infused with of all things, serpent DNA. 142 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: If this guy is thinking like this, maybe he sees 143 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: himself as killing a beast of some kind. Maybe he's 144 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: going head to head with Satan. For all we know, 145 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: who knows what's going on inside this guy's mind. But 146 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: I can tell you this he absolutely destroyed, I mean 147 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: destroyed these little babies lives and their bodies, Joe. If 148 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,839 Speaker 1: they were not killed by the first blow that was 149 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: struck to them by their father, or is there a 150 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: way to tell which of those blows actually killed them? Well, yeah, 151 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: you know, thinking about which one of these shots or 152 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: strikes or penetrative events was actually the lethal blow, it 153 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: can be kind of hard to determine that. Obviously, if 154 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: you have a penetrating wound that goes directly into the heart, 155 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: that's going to be what we might refer to as 156 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,559 Speaker 1: a kill shot. But you know, the thing about it, Jackie, 157 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: is that some people actually survive, actually survive for a time, 158 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: even after being struck in heart with a bullet. There 159 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 1: is some level of survivability, and that's with a tremendous 160 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: amount of kinetic energy. When you have a bolt like this, 161 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: it's just being driven in there. There's a chance that 162 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: they could have survived for a few minutes. The trick 163 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 1: is trying to determine how much hemorrhage is existing around 164 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: some of these wounds, and that's one of the things 165 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: that we do in forensic pathology and death investigation is 166 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: that if we have a specific amount of hemorrhage that's 167 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: involving one particular wound, we can get an idea as 168 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:39,079 Speaker 1: to what position or in what sequence these wounds may 169 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: have occurred in And I'll give you for instance, if 170 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 1: you've got a tremendous amount of bleeding that is connected 171 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: with a particular wound, that gives you an indication that 172 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: the person survived that wound for a while because they 173 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: bled and hemorrhaged into that specific area. Now, when you 174 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 1: get into post mortem injuries, which are injuries that occur 175 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 1: after death, you'll literally have a whole or as we 176 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: refer to it as a defect, that goes into the 177 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: body and there won't be any associated hemorrhage. That means 178 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: that you're striking dead tissue at that point in time, 179 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: there's no longer blood flow in that area. So when 180 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 1: the forensic pathologist does the exam on these bodies, that's 181 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: one of the things they're going to be keen in on. 182 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: You know how many of these injuries occurred in life 183 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: and how many of them occurred in death, Joe. Because 184 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: the bodies were found so quickly, very little decomposition would 185 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: have happened. Yet, you know, Jackie. I think that one 186 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: of the things that we need to focus on here 187 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: is how long what type of tom fram are we 188 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: talking about it? You know, because remember the wife has 189 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: been tracking this guy by the movement of his cellular device, 190 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 1: and how much time had kind of elapsed since he 191 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: took the kids, he went to Mexico, he committed this 192 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: horrific act, and then the children were found by this 193 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: worker out and how did this orchard, of all places, 194 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: From what we understand, there's not a lot of what 195 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: we refer to as decompositional artifact, and that's kind of 196 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 1: fancy words were saying how long they had been dead, 197 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: and we gauge that by, you know, what changes have 198 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: taken in place in the body after death. The fact 199 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: that the bodies appeared to be, for lack of a 200 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 1: better term, fresh dead. That's actually good from an investigative standpoint, 201 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,319 Speaker 1: because it means we're not losing evidence, and that means 202 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 1: that they got to this in very short order. So 203 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: you're not talking about like a body that's found in 204 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,599 Speaker 1: an arid region where we might have skeletal remains, or 205 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: oh God forbid, that a wild animal would come by 206 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: and begin to disrupt the bodies. None of that apparently happened. 207 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: These kids had died a very short period of time 208 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: prior to their bodies being found, and that is good 209 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 1: for the investigation. Following up on one thing that you 210 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: mentioned a minute ago, we do know that Matthew Coleman 211 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: is being held at an undisclosed federal prison and he 212 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: is undergoing a psychological evaluation where a psychiatrist is working 213 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: to determine whether or not Coleman is fit to stand trial. 214 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: I'm executive producer Jackie Howard, and this is Crime Stories.