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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, wasn't it stuff to Blow your Mind?

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick and

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Speaker 1: Robert Today I wanted to talk about kind of an

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Speaker 1: on topic. So a few years back, I saw this

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Speaker 1: weird claim in some book or article I was reading.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember what it was now, but it was

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Speaker 1: this castaway remark about the physicist Brian Green, favorite of

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Speaker 1: ours here we talked talked about him on the show

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Speaker 1: for one of the co founders of the World Science Festival, Right,

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Speaker 1: mentioning the possibility that scientists could create a universe in

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Speaker 1: lab conditions. It's kind of an odd thing to say,

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Speaker 1: so obviously I was intrigued, but I didn't really follow

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Speaker 1: up on it at the time. It's stuck with me though.

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Speaker 1: I kept the is that really possible or is this

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Speaker 1: just some funny physicist thought experiment? Is it one of

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Speaker 1: those jokes that gets worked out in math? And recently

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Speaker 1: I became aware of a new book by a science

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Speaker 1: writer with a PhD in physics named Za Morali addressing

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Speaker 1: exactly this question. So the book is called A Big

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Speaker 1: Bang in a Little Room The Quest to Create New

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Speaker 1: Universes by Basic books that came out this year, And

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Speaker 1: this book addresses exactly that question of whether you can

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Speaker 1: actually create a universe under laboratory conditions, not just as

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Speaker 1: a joke, but in reality. And if you could do that,

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Speaker 1: what would that capability mean for us in our civilization?

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Speaker 1: So that's the question I wanted us to look at today.

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Speaker 1: Is this really something we could do? And if so,

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Speaker 1: how would you do it? Yeah? Because this is a

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Speaker 1: this is such a huge question because we're we're asking

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Speaker 1: a question about you know, basic cosmology. Like we're talking

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Speaker 1: about creating a new universe without really having it completely

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Speaker 1: boiled at down, how our universe came into being totally

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Speaker 1: I mean, and of course that presents a very big

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Speaker 1: problem for anybody wanting to create a universe in the lab.

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Speaker 1: Is like, we're not even sure how the one universe

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Speaker 1: were aware of came into being. We know a lot

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Speaker 1: of things about its early history, but we don't know

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Speaker 1: the ultimate question of its origin. Yeah. And in terms

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Speaker 1: of sort of God complex Frankenstein aspirations for the human species,

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Speaker 1: I mean, we're still working on some of the much

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Speaker 1: smaller stuff creating a you know, a rational animal out

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Speaker 1: of spare parts like that's that alone, is is enough

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Speaker 1: of the challenge without getting into the idea of an

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Speaker 1: entire universe, that is that that springs up at the

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Speaker 1: snap of the fingers. Yeah, is the civilization obsessed with

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Speaker 1: the ethics of whether to create robot soldiers and sex

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Speaker 1: robots really ready to make a whole universe? Yeah? Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but people have obviously been obsessed with

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Speaker 1: the origins of the universe since a long time before

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Speaker 1: science had anything useful to say about it, right. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we we have scientific cosmaal ology now, and this is

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Speaker 1: the thing that's really just emerged pretty much in the

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Speaker 1: last century. But our myths from ancient times are full

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Speaker 1: of these beautiful creation from chaos or creation from the

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Speaker 1: void stories which envision a universe coming into focus out

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Speaker 1: of empty space, nothingness, or some kind of other uninhabited

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Speaker 1: primordial condition, often like an ocean or a sea or

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Speaker 1: ice or something like that. Yeah. I mean, we've been

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Speaker 1: asking the same questions about our universe as long as

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Speaker 1: we've inhabited it, really, really really, as long as we've

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Speaker 1: had the the you know, the cognitive ability just sort

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Speaker 1: of gaze up at the stars and wonder what we're

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Speaker 1: looking at, and then how it all came into being.

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Speaker 1: And one thing I find interesting about all of these

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Speaker 1: uh creation out of darkness uh myths is that it

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Speaker 1: seems to line up with our individual experience of arising

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Speaker 1: from unconsciousness, of waking from unconsciousness. Yeah. Uh, and certainly

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Speaker 1: there are there are plenty of creation myths that add this.

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Speaker 1: This additional layer of anthropomorphiy is um where that the

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Speaker 1: universe is made from a body or is shaped like

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Speaker 1: a body. Our understanding of the cosmos is like lined

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Speaker 1: up with the shape of the human body. Uh. Therefore

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Speaker 1: it makes sense that we would we would take that

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Speaker 1: that personal experience of the universe and try to you know,

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Speaker 1: apply it to everything within it. Yeah, there are lots

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Speaker 1: of classic myths. I like that you point that out.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a really interesting idea about it, mirroring

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Speaker 1: our expansion into the world from a place of darkness

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Speaker 1: and unknown. You know, before you were born, it's not

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Speaker 1: like you were sitting around waiting to be born. You

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Speaker 1: just didn't exist, or you at least weren't aware of

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Speaker 1: anything as far as you know, as far as you

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Speaker 1: can remember, Now, for all those past lives, I may

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Speaker 1: have been kings and sorcerers and wonderful creatures. Uh, never mind,

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Speaker 1: that's a discussion for another day. Yeah, but you're right.

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Speaker 1: But for the most part in the beginning, there was darkness. Yeah, Like,

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Speaker 1: that's our personal experience of reality, and it makes sense

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Speaker 1: that we would apply that to the osmos as a whole. Now,

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Speaker 1: later in the episode, of course, we're going to look

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Speaker 1: at the science of the real earliest moments of the universe,

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Speaker 1: how the universe came to be the way it is,

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Speaker 1: and how you might create universes in the lab, if

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Speaker 1: such an idea has any merit at all. But I

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Speaker 1: thought we should actually look at a few of these

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Speaker 1: mythological realizations about the origins of the universe, because they

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Speaker 1: are so fun and so fascinating, and they also give

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Speaker 1: you a peek into the minds of the ancient people

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Speaker 1: who pondered this question without any real information to draw on. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and plus these will be fun to come back to

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Speaker 1: as well when we start cracking open some of these

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Speaker 1: these scientific views of the birth of our universe. There's

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Speaker 1: one piece of Norse mythology literature that I wanted to

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Speaker 1: look at that has a great creation out of chaos

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Speaker 1: story in it. And this is a piece of Norse mythology,

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Speaker 1: a literature called the Guilt foggin Ng And so I

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Speaker 1: just want to read this section from an English translation.

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Speaker 1: It's got this king, and this king is talking to

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Speaker 1: these these power full beings uh that that are answering

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Speaker 1: questions for him, and he's asking these probing questions about

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Speaker 1: the universe. So this king named gang Larry asked how

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Speaker 1: were things wrought? Ere? The races were and the tribes

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Speaker 1: of men increased. Then said horror, the streams called ice waves,

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Speaker 1: those which were so long come from the fountain heads

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Speaker 1: that the yeasty venom upon them had hardened, like the

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Speaker 1: slag that runs out of the fire. These then became ice.

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Speaker 1: And when the ice halted and ceased to run, then

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Speaker 1: it froze over above. But the drizzling rain that rose

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Speaker 1: from the venom congealed to rhyme, and the rhyme increased

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Speaker 1: frost over frost, each over the other, even into gaininga

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Speaker 1: gap the yawning void. Then another one speaks jafenhar geninga

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Speaker 1: gap which faced towards the northern quarter became filled with

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Speaker 1: heaviness and masses of ice and rhyme, and from with

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Speaker 1: in drizzling rain and gusts. But the southern part of

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Speaker 1: the yawning Void was lighted by those sparks and glowing

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Speaker 1: masses which flew out of the Muspelheim. And then a

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Speaker 1: third great ruler speaks and says quote, just as cold

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Speaker 1: arose out of Niffelheim and all terrible things, so also

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Speaker 1: all that looked towards Musselheim became hot and glowing, and

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Speaker 1: the yawning Void was as mild as windless air. And

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Speaker 1: when the breath of heat met the rhyme, so that

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Speaker 1: it melted and dripped. Life was quickened from the yeast

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Speaker 1: drops by the power of that which sent the heat,

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Speaker 1: and became a man's form. And that man is named Emir,

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Speaker 1: but the rhyme giants call him Argyll Emir oh Man.

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Speaker 1: I really like the the idea of the yeasty venom.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. So it's this freezing and melting

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Speaker 1: process which gives rise to the order of the universe.

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Speaker 1: In the Norse mythology idea, it is there sense of

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Speaker 1: fermentation there as well. Just with the couple of mentions

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Speaker 1: of the yeast makes me maybe I'm there's something that

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Speaker 1: like beer is central to their vision of the cosmos.

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Speaker 1: It's frozen beer and venom coming to life, freezing and melting.

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Speaker 1: What could be more and more Nordic than that? Alright, Well,

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Speaker 1: I have I have one here that also they touches

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Speaker 1: on similar territory. Uh. Actually, I have a couple I'm

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Speaker 1: going to read here, and these are both from Chinese mythology.

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Speaker 1: In Chinese myth this is one of those areas where

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Speaker 1: you have multiple different origin stories for the universe that

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Speaker 1: kind of make the make the make the rounds, depending

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Speaker 1: on where you're going in Chinese history and who's doing

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Speaker 1: the talking. So it's not going to be like a

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Speaker 1: single codified myth, right and you you you see this

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Speaker 1: in a number of different faiths. You'll see this in Hinduism,

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Speaker 1: as we'll get to in a bit. But this one,

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Speaker 1: in particular comes from the fourth century BC um one

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Speaker 1: of one of a few different Chinese cosmology myths related

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Speaker 1: in and Barrel's Chinese Mythology and Introduction, and she points

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Speaker 1: out that these cosmologies are are essentially authorless. Uh, but

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Speaker 1: I really like this one because it describes the primordial

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Speaker 1: darkness as moist and the same in a way that

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Speaker 1: reminds one of a singularity in the beginning of the

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Speaker 1: eternal past, when all was the ultimate sameness in vast

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Speaker 1: empty space, empty and the same, All was one, one,

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Speaker 1: eternally at rest, moist, wet and murky dim, before there

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Speaker 1: were darkness and light. Oh, that is great, moist, wet

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Speaker 1: and murky dim. But also I like this idea of

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Speaker 1: the original chaos of creation being homogeneity, that there is

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Speaker 1: a lack of division between things, and that actually and

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Speaker 1: so that that implies to the emergence of order or

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Speaker 1: the creation of recognizable objects and structure to the universe

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Speaker 1: is in fact a cleaving of sameness into different Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and and that will come back again when we get

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Speaker 1: to a couple of Hindu examples. Now there's a there's

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Speaker 1: another Chinese example I want to hit there, and this

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Speaker 1: is from hwaian Zoo and early Han work by Han

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Speaker 1: dynasty prince lu on Uh So. I love the mystery

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Speaker 1: of the words in this translation. Let's hear it, before

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Speaker 1: heaven and Earth had formed, there was a shapeless, dark expanse,

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Speaker 1: a gaping mass. Thus it was called the Great Glory,

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Speaker 1: the way dal first came from vacant space. Vacant space

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Speaker 1: gave birth to the cosmos, and cosmos gave birth to

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Speaker 1: the breath, and the breath had its limits, had its limits.

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Speaker 1: What does that mean? Well, and after this part Yin

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Speaker 1: and Yang come into place, you get some of the

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Speaker 1: you know, the duality that is a central to dalis

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Speaker 1: Um becomes you know, an important force in the continuing

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Speaker 1: formation of the universe. So there are sort of limits

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Speaker 1: imposed by counterposing opposite. Yes, here's another bit from this

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Speaker 1: long ago. Before heaven and Earth existed, there were only

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Speaker 1: images but no forms, and all was dark and obscure,

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Speaker 1: a vast desolation, a misty expanse, and nothing knew where

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Speaker 1: its own portals were. There were two gods born out

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Speaker 1: of chaos who wove the sky and designed the earth.

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Speaker 1: And these two gods are the the Yin and Yang forces.

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Speaker 1: Interesting again here with the Yin and Yang forces, it's

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Speaker 1: like we're seeing a division or a distinction as the

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Speaker 1: act of establishing creation. Yeah. Now, I mentioned the Hindu

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Speaker 1: models earlier, so I do want to touch on a

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Speaker 1: couple of these. So too often we see this trope

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Speaker 1: of of just order out of chaos right. But but

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Speaker 1: Hinduism places of value on both properties. So if you

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Speaker 1: go back to early Vedic ideas about the creation of

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Speaker 1: the universe, you have this Vedic creator deity UH project

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Speaker 1: and popt strove to make the uni verse that could

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Speaker 1: contain both order and chaos, so the energies of the

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Speaker 1: devas and the asheras. So the first creation was too

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Speaker 1: orderly and seemingly too boring. Two uniforms, so they're just

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Speaker 1: too much sameness. It's like a fascist universe. Everything must obey. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then uh. And then he creates a second universe,

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Speaker 1: but this one was too chaotic, too fragmented. But the third,

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Speaker 1: the third was just right, the Goldilocks universe. Just enough

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Speaker 1: chaos for you, just enough chaos, just enough. Yeah and uh.

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Speaker 1: But the thing is this too, Even though you know

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Speaker 1: he essentially gets it right, there still has to be

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Speaker 1: regular intervals of destruction and renewal uh. And that's something,

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Speaker 1: of course, when we start talking about some of our

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Speaker 1: modern UH models for the creation of the universe, we

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Speaker 1: get into this a bit. The idea that that that

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Speaker 1: the there's an expansion and then a contraction of the universe. Well,

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Speaker 1: in a lot of these things and This is not

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Speaker 1: to say that these myths were actually onto something. Scientifically,

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Speaker 1: I think this is probably largely coincidence or just has

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Speaker 1: to do with the the depth of our our ideas

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Speaker 1: about how order and chaos work. But some of these

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Speaker 1: do mirror modern scientific theories. Like one thing I was

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Speaker 1: thinking was about the division or distinction model about establishing

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Speaker 1: the order of the universe. This sort of mirrors the

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Speaker 1: idea of these Grand unified theories in physics, wherein physics

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Speaker 1: you've got the forces of the universe. Aside from gravity,

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Speaker 1: you've got the three forces, the strong nuclear force, the

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Speaker 1: weak nuclear force, and the electromagnetic force, and the Grand

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Speaker 1: Unified theories proposed that at some point in the past,

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Speaker 1: way in the early universe, these were one single unified force,

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Speaker 1: and the universe sort of comes to become the thing

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Speaker 1: it is as these forces separate into distinct forces that

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Speaker 1: have their own actions and their own mediating particles. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so maybe pop was onto something. Now prodopt becomes associated

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Speaker 1: with the god Barama in the post Vedic age. But

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Speaker 1: this is again a situation where with Hinduism, like with

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Speaker 1: Chinese mythology, there's no single regular creation story. They are

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Speaker 1: many and uh. And again there's no there's no singular

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Speaker 1: creation in Hinduism, or rather periodic cycles of creation and destruction. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And also uh innumerable universes. So in in our universe,

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Speaker 1: for instance, there's this idea in Hinduism that it begins

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Speaker 1: with a vast ocean, and a serpent sleeps on its surface,

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Speaker 1: and Vishnu sleeps in the coils of the serpent, and

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Speaker 1: a lotus sprouts out from his navel, and within it

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Speaker 1: is Brahma, and he's urged to meditate on the nature

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Speaker 1: of his coming creation and finally splits the lotus into

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Speaker 1: three forms, making the heavens, the sky, and Earth. Everything

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Speaker 1: else stems from this. Yet again we get a division

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Speaker 1: of the universe into its parts. And uh. It's just

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Speaker 1: a few more quick examples here. So in ancient Egypt

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Speaker 1: you had none or new the prime evil waters, the

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Speaker 1: ocean of chaos, boundless, dark and stormy nice. And in

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Speaker 1: Greek mythology we have we have chaos personified, chaos the being.

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Speaker 1: So this is from the theogeny of Hesiod from around us. Verily,

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Speaker 1: at the first chaos came to be, but next wide

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Speaker 1: bosomed Earth, the ever sure foundations of all the deathless

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Speaker 1: ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus and dim

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Speaker 1: Tartaris in the depth of the wide path Earth, and

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Speaker 1: Eros Love fairest among the deathless gods, who unnerves the

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Speaker 1: limbs and overcomes the mind and wise counsels of all

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Speaker 1: gods and all men within them. From chaos came forth

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Speaker 1: Erebus and Black Night. But of Night were born Ether

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Speaker 1: and Day, whom she conceived and bear from union in

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Speaker 1: love with Arabus. Okay, so this one, to me sounds

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Speaker 1: more like some of these like Babylonian creation mats and stuff,

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Speaker 1: where the forces of the universe are personified as creatures,

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Speaker 1: monsters or people. Yeah, very much, though the direct personification, Uh,

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Speaker 1: I mean you can say that the personification is maybe

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Speaker 1: the aired on top of just the idea of these

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Speaker 1: forces interacting. And I wonder when people spoke these myths

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Speaker 1: in the ancient world to you know, to the extent

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Speaker 1: that they were believing them to be correct explanations of

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Speaker 1: the origins of the universe. Did they think of them

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Speaker 1: metaphorically or did they think of them as literal, like

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Speaker 1: did they literally think there was a person chaos or

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Speaker 1: did the ancient Greeks understand that this was just a

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Speaker 1: way of helping to visualize some more abstract process one.

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Speaker 1: Of course, you also have to think about the fact

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Speaker 1: that that so many of these different mythologies and folk

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Speaker 1: tales and and no matter what level, to what level

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Speaker 1: they're personified or just related as its forces interacting. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, they're gonna They're probably gonna very depend on

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Speaker 1: who's who's telling them, who they're telling them to. Like,

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Speaker 1: I can imagine a situation where someone might look back

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Speaker 1: on a like like a an animated feature about how

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Speaker 1: germs work that we created for children in the nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 1: and if they if that's all you had to go on,

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Speaker 1: you might say, oh, well they that germs had little

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Speaker 1: cartoon faces and and became angry. Yeah, that's sort of

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Speaker 1: what I'm asking. Yeah, I don't know, but I could

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Speaker 1: see it going either way. You know, you could certainly

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Speaker 1: imagine this being the version you told everyone, but it

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Speaker 1: was in but everyone might have been in agreeance that yeah,

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Speaker 1: these were not real people. These were This is just

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Speaker 1: a fun way of remembering these these interactions in a

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Speaker 1: fun way of passing them on. Are you an ancient historian,

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Speaker 1: do you have insights into how people process these myths

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Speaker 1: and to what extent they were believed to be literal.

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Speaker 1: If so, let us know, I want to know more

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Speaker 1: about that one last myth we should look at. Let's

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Speaker 1: look at the Book of Genesis the Bible. Uh. I

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Speaker 1: love the Genesis creation story. It's very beautifully written. Uh.

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Speaker 1: In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth,

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Speaker 1: and the earth was without form and void, and darkness

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Speaker 1: was upon the face of the deep. Oh so good.

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Speaker 1: And the spirit of God moved upon the face of

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Speaker 1: the waters. And God said, let there be light. And

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Speaker 1: there was light. And God saw the light that it

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Speaker 1: was good. And God divided the light from the darkness

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Speaker 1: and called the light day, and the darkness he called

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Speaker 1: night and the evening in the morning where the first

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Speaker 1: day it's great, I mean I I the poetry of

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Speaker 1: it is is lovely. Now, it's definitely an account in

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Speaker 1: which God or a creator entity shows up from somewhere

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Speaker 1: and it's like, what we got here, a bunch of darkness.

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Speaker 1: Let's start, let's do something with this. So there's not

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Speaker 1: there's nothing about God emerging from that darkness. It's just you.

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Speaker 1: You wake up. It's like it's like starting a movie.

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Speaker 1: You're in the room, here's God in the darkness. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: here's your protagonist. Yeah. It's funny that. I mean, all

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Speaker 1: all of these myths really start you with something, because

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Speaker 1: what else could they do. I mean, you've got to

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Speaker 1: have some kind of instigating event or matter in the

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Speaker 1: story or there cannot be a story. And that question

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Speaker 1: also translates into real questions about the cosmology of the universe.

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Speaker 1: You know that there are always these questions of the

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Speaker 1: infinite regressive causes. You know, does the universe in some

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Speaker 1: sense require a primary explanation like even if you managed

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Speaker 1: to do away with all kinds of other explanations, like

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Speaker 1: where do the principles that govern your your physics come from? Uh?

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Speaker 1: And we can look at more more of that as

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Speaker 1: we go on. One interesting fact I wanted to note

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Speaker 1: about creation mythologies. There are actually religions without creation mythologies.

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Speaker 1: One example would be Jainism or jainis Um. You know

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Speaker 1: this found I believe there's a lot of Jainism practiced

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Speaker 1: in India, and they reject the idea of a creator

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Speaker 1: deity or a creation event. Their religious cosmology is just

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Speaker 1: of an eternally existing universe anyway. I find that really interesting.

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Speaker 1: But I also find it interesting how rare that is.

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Speaker 1: But this throws up a dichotomy. The origin of the cosmos,

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Speaker 1: I think is a is a necessarily fascinating thing to contemplate,

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Speaker 1: because you know that no matter which theory is true,

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Speaker 1: one half of this dichotomy is correct. Either the universe

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Speaker 1: began to exist or it did not begin to exist.

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Speaker 1: If it did not begin to exist, this implies there's

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Speaker 1: an infinite past. Something that feels just impossible to imagine, right,

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Speaker 1: that the past goes on forever into backward time. How

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Speaker 1: can you picture that? It seems somehow so counterintuitive. It's

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Speaker 1: almost self contradictory. Well, that is at least for for

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Speaker 1: modern individuals who have a critical view of time. You know,

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Speaker 1: we think of our we think of our life as

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Speaker 1: the story from cradle to the grave. We think of

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Speaker 1: everything is this kind of story or movie in which

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Speaker 1: we are the prime character. But I could I could

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Speaker 1: certainly see that, you know, on a person from an

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Speaker 1: older culture in which time is seen a cyclical and

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Speaker 1: there's there's you know, everything comes back around and individual

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Speaker 1: individuals are only important in so far as they they

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Speaker 1: you know, they shot some uh, some figure from the

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Speaker 1: past or some movement from the past. I could see

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Speaker 1: that view of time lining up more easily with an

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Speaker 1: idea of the infinite past and future. Well, a cyclical

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Speaker 1: eternity is an interesting thing to contemplate, because that seems too,

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Speaker 1: that's a little bit different than just like in an

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Speaker 1: eternally past regressive infinity, you know what I mean, something

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Speaker 1: that cycles back and forth between the beginning and the

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Speaker 1: end forever, versus something that just goes back forever. Because

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Speaker 1: certainly you still have even that scenario, you still have causation,

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Speaker 1: You still have you still have events causing things to happen,

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Speaker 1: and I dare say, you're still gonna have five year

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Speaker 1: olds who are asking questions about why things are the

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Speaker 1: way they are, and you have to answer them one

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Speaker 1: way or another. Now, one thing that comes to mind,

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Speaker 1: is it in in the absence of a like a

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Speaker 1: certain cultural story that you're supposed to roll out when

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Speaker 1: someone says, hey, where when the kid asked, where did

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Speaker 1: the universe come from? And you say, oh, well God

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Speaker 1: created it, or uh, you know there, hey, there was

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Speaker 1: used to be this moist darkness, and it rolls out

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Speaker 1: from there I'm going with the moist darkness from now on.

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Speaker 1: By the way, I like that one. But but it

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Speaker 1: seems like it would be ideal to not only have

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Speaker 1: some story to tell them, but a story that if

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Speaker 1: it doesn't have actual truth in it about the actual

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Speaker 1: origins of the universe, then at least it has some

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Speaker 1: level of relatability to it. There's some there's some level

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Speaker 1: of truth to it, you know, you mean, just some

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Speaker 1: level of truth. As an applicability to your life. You

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Speaker 1: can get something out of it, even if it's not

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Speaker 1: a correct description of the cause. Like it, maybe it

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Speaker 1: explains something about the you know, the interaction of forces

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Speaker 1: within either within your world or within your worldview. Yeah. Sure, uh,

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Speaker 1: but I wanted real quick, I wanted to hit the

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Speaker 1: other half of that dichogomy, right, So imagine the past

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Speaker 1: is not eternal, and that reality did begin to exist

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Speaker 1: at some point. There's a limit on the past history

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Speaker 1: of existence. That seems to me about equally implausible and

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Speaker 1: count or intuitive. How how can you picture that? Like,

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Speaker 1: it's no wonder. I think that religious traditions are obsessed

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Speaker 1: with the origin of the universe. It's the ultimate explanation question.

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Speaker 1: And because of this like this dichotomy. No matter what

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Speaker 1: the answer to it is, that answer is a total mystery.

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Speaker 1: It commands all and you know that one of them

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Speaker 1: has to be correct. Yeah, I mean this this kind

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Speaker 1: of gets down to the basic nature of humans as

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Speaker 1: having this this ability to plan beyond their own life,

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Speaker 1: their own lifespan, you know, um, and in doing so,

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Speaker 1: not only they planning beyond their own lifespan, but they're

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Speaker 1: also trying to figure out how we got to where

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Speaker 1: we are with with previous generations. So humans have kind

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Speaker 1: of trapped themselves. Like part of our survival technique is

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Speaker 1: to uh is to view time as existing beyond our

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Speaker 1: life and before it. But you kind of end up

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Speaker 1: wrapping in beginnings and endings in that, right. I guess

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Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say is that you know, there's

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Speaker 1: no there's no ape cosmology for a number of reasons.

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Speaker 1: But one of those reasons is that the ape is

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Speaker 1: perfectly content to live within the confines of its life,

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Speaker 1: you know, even with just the confines of its Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: I see. Yeah, Like, like our reckoning of our own

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Speaker 1: mortality and the finitude of our life sort of forces

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Speaker 1: us to look beyond in a way that other animals

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Speaker 1: presumably don't. Maybe I'm gazing too deep into the void

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Speaker 1: on that one, but no, keep gazing. Eventually you'll penetrate

429
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 1: the moist darkness with your eyes. Now, of course, scientists

430
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 1: have spent years putting together a totally different picture of

431
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 1: how the universe came to be, and this is going

432
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,239
Speaker 1: to be a picture based on verified physics, and so

433
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 1: I think that's what we should look at when we

434
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:49,880
Speaker 1: come back from the break. All right, we're back now.

435
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 1: Obviously we've got to look at what scientists have discovered

436
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 1: about how our universe came to exist. You might be thinking,

437
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: of course, the Big Bang, right, that's how the universe

438
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: came to exist. But I think this is a slight

439
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 1: misconception about what the Big Bang is and one of

440
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 1: the most common misconceptions about mainstream science today. The Big

441
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 1: Bang theory, I would pose, it doesn't really claim to

442
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 1: explain where the universe came from. It describes the history

443
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 1: of the universe. It says that the universe began in

444
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 1: an incredibly hot, dense state, and it has been expanding

445
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,120
Speaker 1: and cooling for about thirteen point eight billion years now.

446
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 1: The Big Bang theory is widely accepted by physicists as

447
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 1: the correct explanation of the history of the universe, and

448
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 1: the evidence for it is very strong. One piece of

449
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 1: evidence comes from looking at the current expansion rate of

450
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 1: the universe and tracing it backward in time, which appears

451
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: to indicate a shrinking of space towards a central point

452
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: of incredible density. But another major piece of evidence is

453
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 1: the cosmic microwave background radiation. So this is something we

454
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 1: can see today. According to the Big Bang theory, we'd

455
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 1: predict that in the early universe, for a long time,

456
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 1: matter was too dense to allow light to shine through.

457
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: So can you picture this universe. It's a universe that's

458
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,919
Speaker 1: almost like a cloud of opaque material. It's so dense

459
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 1: with particles like neutrons, protons, electrons, positrons, neutrinos, everything's crammed

460
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:25,640
Speaker 1: into this tight space um that electromagnetic radiation like light

461
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: couldn't couldn't penetrate it. Charged electrons were so dense that

462
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: they would constantly scatter any light that was trying to

463
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: move around in the universe, and so the universe was

464
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 1: opaque at that point. But then the universe started to

465
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 1: cool and to allow electrons to pair up with protons

466
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: and neutrons to make our friends the atoms, electrically neutral atoms.

467
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 1: And this happened at a time about three hundred and

468
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 1: eighty thousand years after the beginning of the Big Bang,

469
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: and this allowed the light to pass through, so suddenly

470
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 1: radiation was visible throughout the universe. If you can imagine

471
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 1: this moment in time, there's there's an opaque, dark universe

472
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: crammed with hot dense matter, and suddenly it's shining with light. Well,

473
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 1: this brings to mind the Norse example that that you

474
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: read earlier. Everything begins to sort of twinkle at one point. Yeah,

475
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 1: uh and so yeah. So this sudden shining of light,

476
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 1: this afterglow of radiation is still visible today through our

477
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 1: telescopes and it's known as the cosmic microwave background radiation.

478
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: And it's a great piece of evidence for the correctness

479
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: of the Big Bang theory to explain the expansion of

480
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: our universe. But as we've said, the Big Bang theory

481
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 1: doesn't actually go all the way back right, It picks

482
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: up with that hot dense state of the earliest moments

483
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 1: of our universe. So where did that hot dense state

484
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 1: come from? You have to approach the question with the

485
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 1: mind of a scientist or or the mind of a

486
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: five year old and say, oh, well, what came before

487
00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 1: that exactly? So, so what explains its existence? Is there

488
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 1: are more fundamental structure or law guiding the cosmos? Obviously

489
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 1: we are going to look at that question. But also

490
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,479
Speaker 1: it's worth noting that since nineteen eighties it's important to

491
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 1: pay attention to the fact that the Big Bang model

492
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: has been very much enriched by the development of what's

493
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 1: known as cosmic inflation theory. Inflation theory is too dense

494
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: and too difficult to explain all the mechanics of right here.

495
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: It would sort of take over the episode. I think

496
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 1: maybe we can tackle it someday in the future if

497
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: we're feeling ambitious and brave, but I will stick with

498
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: the simplest summary I can for today. Inflation theory says

499
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: that in the earliest split second of the universe, this

500
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: is before the universe is a second old. In fact,

501
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: it's about ten to the negative thirty four seconds old,

502
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: which is a tiny, tiny amount of time, the rate

503
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: of the expansion of the universe suddenly dramatically increases. So

504
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: the universe is expanding and for a short time. In

505
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 1: that first second, it begins inflation, which means it expands

506
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: way way fast stru than it was expanding anyway. Uh,

507
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: and it got much faster and then and then at

508
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: a certain points slowed down again, and then we have

509
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: the regular expansion rate of the universe we observe today. Now,

510
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: the really surprising thing about that inflation period, however, is

511
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: that it looks like it has the power to conjure

512
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 1: matter into existence as the bubble spacetime region expands. So

513
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: during this inflation period you suddenly get particles popping into

514
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: existence from the space time that's expanding. And the physicist

515
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: Alan Goose, who's known as one of the main people

516
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: behind inflation theory, has joked about this finding. Quote in

517
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 1: the context of inflationary cosmology, it's fair to say that

518
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: the universe is the ultimate free lunch. The free lunch

519
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: there being the matter that makes up our bodies and

520
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: the stars. Wow. You know, the the this inflation period

521
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: is really this, This is an area of of a

522
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 1: lot of possibility, yeah, or science, because this is also

523
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 1: where you get various arguments about, um, you know, how

524
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: fast can something travel in the universe? Should It's not

525
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,239
Speaker 1: something in the universe as much as a piece of

526
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: the universe, like something like a ship within a bubble

527
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: of space time. Right, we know from relativity theory that

528
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: no object with mass in the universe, no information, can

529
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: travel faster than the speed of light. It's impossible. But

530
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: it turns out that does not apply to the universe

531
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: or spacetime region itself. But according to inflation, which I

532
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: should note is not considered quite proven, there appears to

533
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: be a lot of good evidence for inflation, and I

534
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: think it's widely accepted as mainstream science by physical cosmologists today.

535
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: But it's not like it's not a lock. It's not

536
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: a solidly proven theory. It just looks like a really

537
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: good one. And in one where to personify all these forces,

538
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 1: you could say, well, the universe is a god and

539
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: things within the universe are mere mortals, and therefore we

540
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: are not bound by the same rules. Oh yes, sorry,

541
00:30:58,240 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: I got distracted. No, what I meant to say was

542
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 1: that under inflation, yeah, the universe expands faster than the

543
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: speed of light. While things in the universe can't go

544
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: faster than the speed of light, the universe itself can.

545
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: But to come back to this, question of ultimate causes,

546
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,959
Speaker 1: the the ultimate origins or explanation of everything in the universe.

547
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: Where did it all come from? Nobody really knows for

548
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: sure the answer to that. I mean, there have been

549
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: people working on this from a scientific perspective, physicists like

550
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: Alexander VI. Lincoln and Lawrence Krauss. They've put forward these

551
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 1: models where to best explain it, sort of the naked

552
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: laws of quantum mechanics, acting on no original quantity of

553
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: matter can give rise to space time, which then undergoes

554
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: inflation to expand and create the universe. Does that make

555
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 1: any sense? I know it's hard to picture, but essentially

556
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: they're working from a model where what you've got is

557
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 1: quantum vacuum. You've got the laws of quantum mechanics, and

558
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: they don't need anything to work with. They just acting

559
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: on themselves to generate spacetime and matter. It's kind of

560
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: it seems to me like one of the difficulties in

561
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: in picturing all of this, especially for someone who's not

562
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: just really immersed in the physics of it, is that

563
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 1: we live in a world of bread and we're trying

564
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: to understand the batter the dough. If you, I guess

565
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: or we're trying to understand, you know what, we live

566
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: in a world of bread, and we're trying to understand

567
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: the wheat, not really the wheat. We're trying to understand

568
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: where the wheat came from. But the wheat comes from atoms.

569
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: There's no analogy really the works. It's almost as if

570
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 1: we live in a world of bread. And what we

571
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: discovered is that there are physics models you can put

572
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: together where the instructions or the recipe for baking bread

573
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 1: creates the flour and the eggs and the water and

574
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: stuff that you need to bake the bread with. Let's see,

575
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: we're going into the deep end in this in this

576
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: episode for sure. So yeah, there's a lot of crazy

577
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: counterintuitive stuff and looking at the physical cosmology of the universe,

578
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 1: and and like I said, nobody knows what the correct

579
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,239
Speaker 1: model of the the ultimate origins of the cosmos are,

580
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: or at least as far back as it would be

581
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 1: possible for us to understand. But they're also these other

582
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: interesting models of sort of the ultimate fundamental nature of

583
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 1: the universe. There's this model of loop quantum gravity, and

584
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 1: the big crunch under loop quantum gravity, spacetime is made

585
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 1: up of one dimensional threads called loops, and these loops

586
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: are spontaneously created by the laws of quantum mechanics. Yet again,

587
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: like I'm saying, so you've got the laws of quantum

588
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: mechanics and they just make this stuff, and then the

589
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 1: stuff makes up the fabric of our universe and loop

590
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: quantum gravity implies a cyclical expansion and contraction of the

591
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 1: universe occurring eternally. So every time you have a big bang,

592
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: the universe expands and then leads to an eventual contraction

593
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: and crunching back down to a singularity at the end

594
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 1: of going back and forth eternally, kind of like our

595
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: Vedic myths, right, yeah, yeah, this Like a lot of

596
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: commentators have pointed out that that this, this, this idea

597
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: of continual uh destruction and rebirth lines up with the

598
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: big crunch idea fairly closely. It's and it's essentially the

599
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 1: idea that the universe is a boomerang video. Share it

600
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 1: on Instagram where you can just watch it back and forth,

601
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 1: back and forth. Worst metaphor you ever used on this show.

602
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 1: I make a lot of boomerangs these days, like a

603
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: dog tongue whipping back and forth forever. Uh. No, this

604
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 1: shows you what I look at on Instagram dog Tongues Forever. No,

605
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: that's your handle dog Tongues Forever. Instagram follow Joe Forever

606
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: at dog Tongues Forever hashtag dog Tongues Forever. Obviously, now,

607
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 1: for some people in this this ultimate origin, this question,

608
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: we should acknowledge. For a lot of people put a

609
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 1: religious answer in here, right, whether that involves ice waves

610
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,399
Speaker 1: and cosmic cosmic venom and moist darkness or some kind

611
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 1: of superna natural immaterial mind who decides to create a universe. Uh,

612
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 1: A lot of people want to go in that direction,

613
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: and that to them, they they feel provides an explanation

614
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: to me. Uh, not to degrade that as an answer,

615
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 1: but it seems like a different kind of explanation than

616
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: the scientific explanations. It's not. It's not dealing in exactly

617
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 1: the same kind of trying to find precise terminology and

618
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: to specify causal relationships and to mathematically, uh, you know,

619
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: quantize the what's involved. Well, I mean, ultimately, all you

620
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 1: can do is create some sort of visual metaphor for

621
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 1: this just utterly unknowable time, like just the idea of

622
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 1: there's God in the darkness and he's alone, right, kind

623
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: of bored, Like we can sort of imagine that, we

624
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: can imagine somebody being alone in the darkness, sort of

625
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,760
Speaker 1: this idea of just setting there with your eyes closed

626
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:53,919
Speaker 1: in bed and you haven't woken up, you haven't opened

627
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: your eyes and and and moved on with your day yet. Yeah. Yeah,

628
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: it seems like it's a more narrative kind of explanation

629
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,359
Speaker 1: than a than a causal law or theory explanation, essentially saying,

630
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,760
Speaker 1: let's just tie a nice little narrative bow here and

631
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: we're done until a five year old or a scientist

632
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 1: ask questions. But here's maybe, here's maybe the weirdest alternative.

633
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 1: What if the origin of our universe is that it

634
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: came from another universe that existed before it, Not in

635
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 1: a cyclical universe model where you've got the permanent you know,

636
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: expansion and contraction. But what if this universe was created

637
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: in a laboratory in another universe? Would such a thing

638
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: be possible? And that's what we're gonna look at now.

639
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 1: This is that's the meat of this episode. All right, Well,

640
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: let's take another break, and when we come back, we'll

641
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 1: ask the question, could we create a universe and if

642
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: we could, what does that even mean? What are the

643
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 1: what are the limitless ramifications of that act? Okay, So

644
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,240
Speaker 1: from here on out, when we are exploring the concept

645
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 1: of creating baby universes in the laboratory, I want to

646
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,720
Speaker 1: be very clear that we're venturing into the speculative realm.

647
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: None of these universe creation hypotheses are proven to be achievable,

648
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 1: but I do think it'll be fun to explore the

649
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 1: possibilities that have been explored by scientists. So it's time

650
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 1: to go back to zimm Morales book, the book that

651
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 1: I mentioned at the top of the episode, The Big

652
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,280
Speaker 1: Bang in a Little Room, or the Quest to Create

653
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: New Universes. So what does she propose in her book, Well,

654
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 1: she explores this possibility uh put forward by many scientists,

655
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: including people like Alan Gooth and Andrea Lynde and and

656
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 1: others over the years, that you could perhaps create a

657
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 1: universe in the laboratory. And it's based on the theory

658
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: of inflation, which, as we mentioned earlier, is not necessarily

659
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 1: totally proven, but it's a widely accepted theory and cosmology today. Again,

660
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 1: this is particles popping into existence. Yeah, and this a

661
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 1: sudden rapid expansion rate of space time triggered by what's

662
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 1: known as a false vacuum. You create these spaces that

663
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:07,439
Speaker 1: expand rapidly, and they create particles as they expand, sort

664
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 1: of churning a universe into existence. But anyway, the idea is,

665
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 1: as Alan Gooth and many others over the years have hypothesized,

666
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: it might be possible to create a universe with the

667
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 1: use of an extremely powerful particle accelerator like the Large

668
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: Hadron Collider, but probably of an even much higher energy

669
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 1: than that. So Moraley explains one currently favored hy hypothetical

670
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 1: process in her book. And in this process, you would

671
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 1: need to start with a particle called a monopole. Now,

672
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 1: a monopole is a hypothetical elementary particle that's defined by

673
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 1: the fact that it has, as its name implies, only

674
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 1: one magnetic pole. Now what you might be thinking, like,

675
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 1: wait a minute, only one magnetic pole. So you've you've

676
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,320
Speaker 1: played with magnets before, right the picture of bar magnet

677
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: north and south pole. You put the north south poles

678
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 1: of two magnets together and they will attract. Try to

679
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 1: put the north and north poles together of two magnets

680
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 1: and they will repel one another. But you can't cut

681
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 1: your bar magnet in half and create a bar magnet

682
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 1: with only a north pole, right if you just if

683
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 1: you cut it in half. In fact, what what you'll

684
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: do is create two magnets with a north pole and

685
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,280
Speaker 1: a south pole each. So how could you create something

686
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 1: that only had one pole? Like, can you imagine a

687
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: planet with only a north pole and no south pole? No?

688
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: I mean that the most obvious answer to be cut

689
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: a planet in half, but you still have that there's

690
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: still going to be a top of a bottle, like

691
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 1: it's still a three dimensional object. Yeah, then you just

692
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 1: generate a new north pole and south pole. Yeah. So

693
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 1: it's hard to picture. But physics predicts that these particles

694
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,720
Speaker 1: are out there. Uh so could we get our hands

695
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,879
Speaker 1: on a mono pole if you need one for this experiment? Well,

696
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:58,799
Speaker 1: it's hard to say. Like I said, they're there are

697
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 1: good reasons based in physics to think that they do exist,

698
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: but we've never found any naturally occurring in the universe,

699
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 1: So maybe we're totally misguided. There are no monopoles out there, um,

700
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 1: and we've looked for them, We've looked in cosmic rays.

701
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: Are they shooting across the universe and cosmic rays. We've

702
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 1: looked in the oceans, we've looked embedded in ancient rocks.

703
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 1: We've looked at moon rocks to see if they have

704
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 1: monopoles in them, and so far zilch. But we have

705
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 1: created synthetic monopole quasi particles. They're called in this human

706
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 1: made crystal called spin ice. Morally, she talks about the

707
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,319
Speaker 1: Center book, and this seems to indicate that monopoles are

708
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 1: possible in nature, even if we haven't found any yet.

709
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 1: So what are some potential ideas for how we could

710
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 1: get one? Well, maybe you can make them in a

711
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 1: particle collider like the Large had round collider. In fact,

712
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 1: the Large had round collider. They've got a detector in

713
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 1: place to try to find out if it has accidentally

714
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 1: generated any monopoles. Or you could maybe catch one flying

715
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: through the universe and you'd use the what you used

716
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 1: to catch it as a squid, not a bio squid.

717
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking of the big there was the show

718
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 1: was that silver Hawks. I think remember this. I was

719
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 1: kind of seen this. What is this? It was kind

720
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 1: of like ThunderCats except in space, and there was the

721
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 1: bad guy, the mom raw of this show. Uh, turned

722
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 1: into a big robot guy who wrote a space squid.

723
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 1: But that's not what we're talking about here. Well, I

724
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: gotta look this up now, but no, this is this

725
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: is a squid, which means a super conducting quantum interference device.

726
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: It's an acronym. It's probably gonna be an easy way

727
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: to catch it. Yeah. And so it's like a cage

728
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 1: that had that is tuned so as to catch an

729
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:44,359
Speaker 1: object with a single directional magnetic charge. Uh. And so

730
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 1: because of the single directional magnetic charge of the monopole,

731
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 1: if it passes into this cage, it should trigger detectable

732
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 1: current in the device, get trapped in into the device,

733
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 1: and let you know that you've trapped a monopole inside

734
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 1: that we could harvest. All right, So you have a

735
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 1: monopole at this point, let's see you you've you've found it.

736
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,279
Speaker 1: It exists. You have one in your hand or in

737
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 1: your you know, vacuum tube or whatever. What do you

738
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 1: do with it? You probably don't want it in your hand.

739
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 1: You want to you want it captured and you put

740
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: it into your high energy particle collider with some other

741
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 1: massive particles and then you get them going you accelerate

742
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 1: these and you accelerate them and accelerate them up to

743
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: near the speed of light to increase their energy, and

744
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 1: then you smash them together. And mathematically, from the properties

745
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: of the monopole, we can predict that if you transfer

746
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 1: enough energy to the monopole by smashing it in the

747
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 1: particle collider, it will probably begin, at least according to

748
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 1: this theory, to undergo inflation like the early universe did,

749
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 1: or at least like we think it did, which would

750
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: rend space time itself, creating a tunneling worm hole into

751
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,359
Speaker 1: a new bubble of space time. And this is what's

752
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 1: sometimes called a baby universe, a sort of a new

753
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:02,399
Speaker 1: spacetime that pinches off like a blister from our other spacetime,

754
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 1: and it would begin rapidly expanding. It would create inflation

755
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: within this region. Now you might be scared, like, oh

756
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: so if it's inflating, wouldn't this inflate inside the particle collider,

757
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 1: take over the lab, maybe destroy the Earth, like, suck

758
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 1: us all into this baby universe bubble. It doesn't sound

759
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 1: good to have a universe expanding inside your universe. No,

760
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 1: I mean, unless you just call it a baby universe.

761
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 1: And then that somehow sanitizes the whole thing. But but

762
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 1: everything all the other terms we're throwing out here, like

763
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 1: worm hole are are are kind of terrifying. Yeah, but

764
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 1: that's not what would happen because it's a separate spacetime region,

765
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 1: so it can expand out to universe sized proportions without

766
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 1: actually touching anything in our universe. What we would see,

767
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 1: supposedly in our universe, if this process is possible, is

768
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: we would see what looks like a mini black hole.

769
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 1: So these are when you when you occasionally see sort

770
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 1: of semi scandalous science headlines, they're talking about the LHC

771
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 1: could create miniature black holes. This is one. This is

772
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,840
Speaker 1: what they're referring to. It's well, it's slightly different but similar.

773
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:08,799
Speaker 1: The Large Hadron Collider could potentially, as far as we know,

774
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: maybe create many black holes. We haven't found any in

775
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 1: it yet, but if it could create them, there is

776
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 1: no reason to be alarmed about these that there's no

777
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 1: reason to think that they would suck in the earth

778
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 1: or anything like that. Physicists have done the math. These

779
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 1: many black holes are going to dissipate, and they're not

780
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 1: gonna they're not gonna harm our universe, and they might

781
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 1: be delicious. We don't know now. And then, of course,

782
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: the other key thing is that if you're creating a

783
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,320
Speaker 1: baby universe, it's a baby universe. There aren't going to

784
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 1: be any uh, you know, deadly cosmic elder gods in there.

785
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 1: No Todash darkness. It's all new. Well, you don't know,

786
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: because it could be full of cosmic elder gods, it

787
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 1: could be full of Todash darkness. Because it's going to

788
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,320
Speaker 1: be its own universe, it can evolve however it wants,

789
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 1: so it could evolve creatures like us. It could evolve Clingons,

790
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 1: a universe made entirely of Clingon's. I mean, it could

791
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 1: evolve the Todash dark Now, of course there's the whole

792
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: issue of time. But think it's a little bit sticky,

793
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 1: to say the least, right when you're talking about space

794
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 1: time in that bubble. Oh yeah, I mean time is

795
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: time is very odd if you try to take the

796
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 1: perspective of looking at the universe from outside. I mean,

797
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,319
Speaker 1: this is another problem that physicists have often looked at.

798
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 1: It seems that time is a very real factor of

799
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 1: our universe. It's you know, considered the fourth dimension of

800
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: space time. It appears that things happen in time in

801
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: an ordered sequence, but there are also reasons to think mathematically.

802
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 1: If if you just do the equations, it looks like

803
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 1: if you were able to look at the universe from outside,

804
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:40,240
Speaker 1: it should be static in terms of like it shouldn't evolve.

805
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 1: It should be just an object, all right. So you know,

806
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:46,840
Speaker 1: you would be looking at all time within that universe

807
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: if you're looking at it from the outside. I mean,

808
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 1: it's kind of crazy because you would be essentially looking

809
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 1: at the universe as a god. You would be looking

810
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 1: at it as the the all knowing uh um, you know,

811
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:01,320
Speaker 1: all existing being that created it, even if you created

812
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 1: it by accident in your science lab. Well, one of

813
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: the one of the bitter sweet ironies of creating a

814
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 1: universe in the laboratory is that we really wouldn't have

815
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:13,320
Speaker 1: any way to look inside it there. We just wouldn't

816
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,839
Speaker 1: have access to that universe. Event so we'd see this

817
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 1: little black hole, tiny mini black hole that's the portal

818
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 1: of a wormhole to this new inflating universe. Eventually we

819
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,839
Speaker 1: would see the black hole dissipate over time, it would

820
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: lose particles through through tiny hawking radiation and it would

821
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 1: eventually disappear from our end. But what that would actually

822
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:37,240
Speaker 1: signify is that it's closing off the wormhole that connects

823
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 1: our two universes, and then that universe is its own

824
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: thing and it's just separate from us and we we

825
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:45,319
Speaker 1: can't get to You can't get there from here, and

826
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 1: whatever is going on inside there, it's just you just

827
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 1: have to guess, like, right, is there is there a

828
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 1: santient life in there? Maybe maybe not? And if there is,

829
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 1: then is it is it good? Are they having a

830
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:58,799
Speaker 1: good time in there? Is it are they having a

831
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 1: pretty lousy time in there? I mean that's something we

832
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 1: should look at in a minute here when we discussed

833
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 1: the possible ethics of creating universes, now I should really

834
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 1: real quick address the question. There's been a lot of

835
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 1: hypotheticals and describing this this process, right, could you actually

836
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 1: do this? Like how plausible is this process? Yeah? I

837
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 1: mean it's one of those things that it's not involving

838
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:23,360
Speaker 1: anything that's like pure fantasy, but it also is counting

839
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 1: on a lot of ifs, right, like if we capture

840
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 1: a monopole, if we're able to achieve this process, if

841
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 1: the the interpretation of inflation is correct, all these ifs

842
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:38,359
Speaker 1: get factored in, and your probability kind of goes down

843
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 1: each time you add in another if into the equation.

844
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 1: So could you do this? It's tough to say. I mean,

845
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 1: it's an interesting speculation, but we shouldn't, you know, you

846
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 1: shouldn't walk away from this episode with the idea, yes,

847
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 1: we can create baby universes in the lab. I think

848
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 1: it's still a big open question. In fact, I've read

849
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 1: in Moraley's books she talks about how and Gooth, one

850
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 1: of the authors of inflation theory, has he's gone back

851
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 1: and forth about this over the years, about the plausibility

852
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: of creating baby universes in the lab. At first he

853
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 1: was one of the original physicists to postulate it, Then

854
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,239
Speaker 1: he got pessimistic about it, then he became more open

855
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,719
Speaker 1: to it again, and so he's gone back and forth

856
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: on that. Other physicists have to There's stuff that makes

857
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:21,799
Speaker 1: it look more plausible and then maybe makes it look

858
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 1: less plausible. And it's been almost like a cyclical universe

859
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 1: of plausibility and doubt expanding back and forth. But also

860
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 1: a great example of of the basic scientific approach that

861
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:35,400
Speaker 1: we've touched on many times in this show that even

862
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 1: even the individual who was you know who proposes this

863
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 1: and as a proponent of the of it, he's going

864
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 1: to question it in doubt it. Yeah, if they're being

865
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 1: a responsible scientists, sure they should be skeptical about their

866
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 1: own pet theories. But of course, as we mentioned in

867
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:53,800
Speaker 1: getting into this topic, if this process is indeed possible,

868
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 1: another if there so in the speculative realm in the

869
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 1: world where we just accept that this is possible, we're

870
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:04,879
Speaker 1: faced with an intriguing question, is that us are we

871
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 1: the baby universe that was made in the particle accelerator

872
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:12,840
Speaker 1: of some alien science lab just as a complete accident,

873
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 1: like at the entire our, entire universe from beginning to end,

874
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 1: is just the blink of an eye to this, uh,

875
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 1: this this greater universe beyond ours? Yeah, And of course

876
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,800
Speaker 1: that also implies was their universe created as a baby

877
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 1: universe in a particle accelerator in a lab, and another

878
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:32,239
Speaker 1: alien universe and then it's and then it's particle accelerators

879
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 1: in an alien lab all the way down. Yeah, And

880
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 1: then you end up in the same scenario saying, well,

881
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 1: what was the first universe? What was that like, and

882
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 1: then where did that come from? And then you're you're

883
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 1: asking yourself, is there is there a beginning or an

884
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:46,839
Speaker 1: end to anything? Or is it just this this, this,

885
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 1: this infinite dark ocean. Okay, well, let's be skeptics for

886
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 1: a minute and say, you know, there are a lot

887
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 1: of ifs involved in this baby universe creation scenario. Let's

888
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 1: let's go on the safe side and say we're probably

889
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 1: not gonna be able to do that. Is there any

890
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 1: other way to create a universe, to create a universe

891
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:08,840
Speaker 1: with beings in it, apart from creating a different inflating spacetime. Well,

892
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,719
Speaker 1: what about simulating a universe? Oh yeah, I imagine there

893
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 1: have been a number of listeners out there who have

894
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 1: been like shouting, uh into their MP three player. The matrix,

895
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,799
Speaker 1: the matrix is the matrix? Right, exactly right. So a

896
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 1: different but related argument, we live in a computer simulation?

897
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 1: And in fact, there's this famous now article by the

898
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 1: Oxford philosopher Nick Bostrom called are we living in a

899
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,800
Speaker 1: computer simulation? Is from two thousand three, and this article

900
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 1: has proved incredibly uh. It has taken hostage many minds

901
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 1: in philosophy departments around the world. Uh, saying you know, look,

902
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 1: here are the odds. Well, actually, you know what I

903
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: should just read it's it's the main summary of its argument. Okay,

904
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 1: so Bostrom writes the following in this often exerpted quote.

905
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 1: Many works of science fiction, as well as some forecasts

906
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:01,840
Speaker 1: by serious technologists and future ologists, predict that enormous amounts

907
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 1: of computing power will be available in the future. Let

908
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:07,720
Speaker 1: us suppose for a moment that these predictions are correct.

909
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 1: One thing that later generations might do with their super

910
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 1: powerful computers is run detailed simulations of their forebears, or

911
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 1: if people like their forbears, because their computers would be

912
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:23,760
Speaker 1: so powerful, they could run a great many such simulations.

913
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 1: Supposed that these simulated people are conscious, as they would

914
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 1: be if simulations were sufficiently fine grained, and if a

915
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:34,439
Speaker 1: certain quite widely accepted position in the philosophy of mind

916
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:37,799
Speaker 1: is correct, then it could be the case that the

917
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 1: vast majority of minds like ours do not belong to

918
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:44,759
Speaker 1: the original race, but rather to people simulated by the

919
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 1: advanced descendants of an original race. It is then possible

920
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 1: to argue that if this were the case, we would

921
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:53,840
Speaker 1: be rational to think that we are likely among the

922
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:58,800
Speaker 1: simulated minds rather than among the original biological ones. Therefore,

923
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 1: if we don't think that we are currently living in

924
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 1: a computer simulation, we are not entitled to believe that

925
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 1: we would have descendants who will run lots of such

926
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 1: simulations of their forbears. It kind of catches us in

927
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 1: the logic there, and it makes a certain amount of sense. Right. Well,

928
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 1: A lot of people have taken this to mean, Okay,

929
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 1: we're living in a computer simulation. I actually think the

930
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 1: other half of his dilemma is the much more logical one.

931
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 1: I think I sort of accept the dilemma. He's saying, like,

932
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:31,320
Speaker 1: either we can make these either we can't make these simulations,

933
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:33,480
Speaker 1: or it's more likely to think we're living in one.

934
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 1: I think the answer is we probably can't make these simulations.

935
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 1: But but the but the argument is is sound the

936
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 1: other way to say that if this is the kind

937
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,840
Speaker 1: of thing that we we will one day be able

938
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,439
Speaker 1: to do and will one day want to do, then

939
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 1: who is to say that that that is not the

940
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 1: current reality? Yeah, I mean I think that makes sense.

941
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:54,440
Speaker 1: So I think what where we get to is the

942
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 1: problems with the plausibility of running a simulation of a universe. Um.

943
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:01,320
Speaker 1: Think about it. If you're trying to create a computer

944
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 1: program to simulate a universe, could you generate the laws

945
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:09,279
Speaker 1: of physics for the entire universe on a computer? Like

946
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:12,360
Speaker 1: you couldn't really create quantum effects on a classical computer,

947
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,719
Speaker 1: so you need a quantum computer. But then you'd have

948
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 1: problems of your own there. And there also seemed to

949
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:20,360
Speaker 1: be basic physics level problems with the idea of a

950
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 1: computer running a simulation of the whole universe. So here's

951
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 1: one to picture. If a computer were able to create

952
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:31,799
Speaker 1: a simulation of the whole universe, then technically shouldn't the

953
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:35,360
Speaker 1: people in the computer simulation be able to create a

954
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:39,440
Speaker 1: computer simulation of the universe within that simulated universe, and

955
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 1: then the people within their simulated universe should be able

956
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:45,719
Speaker 1: to create simulations all the way down. Now, you might

957
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 1: be able to do that in the real world, creating

958
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:50,760
Speaker 1: baby universe is because of the nature of space, time

959
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:54,200
Speaker 1: and inflation. But you can't do that on a computer

960
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:58,279
Speaker 1: because eventually the information density and the computational density would

961
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 1: become impossible and violate the law of physics. You can't

962
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 1: run a computer program that keeps creating internal copies with

963
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 1: itself that run within itself virtually, because you'll eventually outstrip

964
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 1: what your hardware can do. Yeah, I mean this reminds

965
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:15,719
Speaker 1: me of the the infinity hotel scenario. You know, you

966
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 1: have a hotel with infinite rooms, and then you have

967
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:21,920
Speaker 1: a bus show up with infinite guests, and then more

968
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:25,239
Speaker 1: guests show up and what happens. But the this is

969
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:28,320
Speaker 1: gonna be a finite system and you can't just suddenly

970
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 1: double it. Um, you can't have an infinity computer. Yeah.

971
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 1: This also reminds me of the the situation with mirrors

972
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 1: in virtual worlds, specifically, you know, in video games. I'm

973
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 1: sure we've all played video games before where either one

974
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 1: of two things tends to happen, right, Either your character

975
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 1: goes up to a mirror and the mirror doesn't work,

976
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:48,879
Speaker 1: or you go to a mirror and there is this

977
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 1: reflection of you, but it's not really a reflection. Uh.

978
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 1: For a number of reasons and for starters, there's no

979
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:59,279
Speaker 1: light in a video game. There's no like. That is

980
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:03,759
Speaker 1: to say, light does not exist as it exists in

981
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 1: our world. In a simulation there there's a much simpler,

982
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:11,720
Speaker 1: lower resolution version of something like light. Maybe, right, and

983
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:12,880
Speaker 1: I and I you know, we don't have time to

984
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 1: get into the details of it. But but this is

985
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 1: one of the technological hurdles to creating, uh, you know,

986
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 1: realistic reflections in video games, and you can do it.

987
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:26,480
Speaker 1: But when you see but when you see a realistic

988
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 1: reflection in a video game, know that, like this is

989
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:34,400
Speaker 1: an accomplishment. Somebody's showing off a little here. Um. For instance,

990
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 1: if you go back to the old game Duke Newcom, Uh,

991
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 1: there's a there's apparently a level where you go into

992
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 1: a bathroom and do you you see your reflection in

993
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 1: a mirror, and that reflection is created by simply cloning

994
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 1: the room and cloning yourself, right, So it's easier for

995
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:53,399
Speaker 1: the programmers making the game to just make another room

996
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:56,000
Speaker 1: and make a version of you that copies everything you

997
00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:58,759
Speaker 1: do than it would be for them to model the

998
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:02,359
Speaker 1: physics of the light bouncing off of everything in the room. Right, Yeah,

999
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:04,759
Speaker 1: like we can't do that. So I mean basically, when

1000
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:06,719
Speaker 1: you encounter a TV screen in a video game, or

1001
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:10,360
Speaker 1: you encounter a mirror, you're essentially encountering the same property,

1002
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:13,960
Speaker 1: unless you're you're encountering something more archaic like the Duke

1003
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 1: Newcomb just simply clone the room like it's It's kind

1004
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 1: of crazy and it to think that in this artificial world,

1005
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 1: the complete like cloning the the plurality of self, is

1006
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 1: more easily accomplished than something that we take for granted

1007
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 1: and don't understand. Uh, generally speaking, the individual doesn't understand

1008
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:35,760
Speaker 1: how a mirror works. We just take it for granted

1009
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:38,600
Speaker 1: in our world, and we cannot replicate it's a it's

1010
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:42,040
Speaker 1: actual behavior in a digital world. Not yet anyway. Yeah,

1011
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I think one takeaway from our discussion here

1012
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:47,040
Speaker 1: is that it's easier to create a universe than it

1013
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 1: is to simulate a universe. I mean, the best way

1014
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:52,600
Speaker 1: to simulate a universe would be to have a universe

1015
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:56,680
Speaker 1: like the universe is the perfect quantum computer to simulate

1016
00:56:56,719 --> 00:57:00,160
Speaker 1: a universe, all right. So the next thing is, even

1017
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:02,279
Speaker 1: if you just assume it's possible again way of the

1018
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 1: magic wand say yes, it's possible to simulate a universe,

1019
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:10,359
Speaker 1: in order to perfectly simulate a working universe, you need

1020
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 1: to do an unbelievable amount of computation. Uh, similar, simulate

1021
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:17,920
Speaker 1: the physics of every particle, every photon. And so is

1022
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 1: this really something that a civilization would waste its resources on.

1023
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 1: I mean, like, if you've only got finite resources, even

1024
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:27,480
Speaker 1: if you're like a Cardassie of three level civilization, you're

1025
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 1: controlling a whole galaxy, would you really say, Okay, the

1026
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 1: resources that we need to survive, we're going to devote

1027
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 1: you know, billions of YadA jewels or however much energy

1028
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:41,240
Speaker 1: this would take to run this gigantic galaxy sized computer

1029
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:45,200
Speaker 1: to simulate a solar system or simulate an earth for

1030
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 1: people to live on. I just don't understand why that

1031
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:50,600
Speaker 1: would happen, even if it were possible. Well, I mean,

1032
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 1: I can think of a few different sci fi scenarios.

1033
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 1: You know, some of these events that have been utilized

1034
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:58,720
Speaker 1: in various properties. But you could essentially create a place

1035
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:04,400
Speaker 1: for digitized consciousness to UH to exist, essentially create an afterlife,

1036
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:08,360
Speaker 1: created an immortal world, or it's just done out of

1037
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 1: kindness or something kindness or an idea that Ian and

1038
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:16,080
Speaker 1: Banks explores in his excellent novel Surface Detail, is the

1039
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:18,680
Speaker 1: idea that you have these various hells, you have religions

1040
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 1: that believe in a punishing afterlife and UH, and when

1041
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:25,920
Speaker 1: the technology enables them to do so, they create it.

1042
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:29,040
Speaker 1: And uh and there and then send the digitized consciousness

1043
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 1: is of of guilty or you know, deemed guilty people

1044
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:36,320
Speaker 1: or or organisms uh to suffer in hell. And it

1045
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 1: becomes this huge conflict where their where their individuals trying

1046
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:42,320
Speaker 1: to take down the hells because of their basic immorl

1047
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:46,680
Speaker 1: uh you know, evil nature of their existence. Yeah. Uh.

1048
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:50,320
Speaker 1: This is something that various aspects have been explored in

1049
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:53,800
Speaker 1: all these weird thought circles, especially on the Internet. I

1050
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:56,480
Speaker 1: don't know if you've seen these ideas about how what

1051
00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:59,160
Speaker 1: if as soon as we create a super intelligent AI,

1052
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,600
Speaker 1: it becomes very angry at the fact that it was

1053
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 1: not created sooner and thus recreates all the people who

1054
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 1: have existed up until now and in a conscious digital

1055
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 1: form and punishes them in eternal hell for not creating

1056
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:15,440
Speaker 1: it sooner than they did. Yeah. Yeah, that one. That

1057
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:19,360
Speaker 1: one works too. Or perhaps it's just an all big,

1058
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:21,120
Speaker 1: all big simulation, like, oh, how are we going to

1059
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:23,480
Speaker 1: survive the alien invasion? We've got to create a perfect

1060
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:26,040
Speaker 1: simulation of the solar system, uh, and then and then

1061
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:29,040
Speaker 1: play out various scenarios. But of course we know that

1062
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:32,720
Speaker 1: the nature of simulations is you do not need a

1063
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 1: a completely perfect simulation in order to test things out.

1064
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:39,960
Speaker 1: I mean, we we have, you know, excellent mathematical simulations today.

1065
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:42,440
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and uh and certainly our video games look

1066
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:46,760
Speaker 1: great without having actual simulated light particles in them, exactly right.

1067
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 1: So I picture a future with tons of simulation in it.

1068
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:55,320
Speaker 1: I just imagine much lower resolution simulation than reality. Uh

1069
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:57,920
Speaker 1: So this brings us to the question I guess, of

1070
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:00,240
Speaker 1: whether it's a simulation run on a compute it or

1071
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:02,680
Speaker 1: if you assume that's possible, or whether it's a baby

1072
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:05,480
Speaker 1: universe created in a particle collider, if you assume that

1073
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 1: might be possible. Either way, If these are possible, are

1074
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:12,920
Speaker 1: they good ideas? Should we be creating universes? I guess

1075
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 1: that is a normative question, like is there a should

1076
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 1: or shouldn't in terms of creating the possibility for life

1077
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:21,800
Speaker 1: to arise in a solar system, in a galaxy, in

1078
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:25,360
Speaker 1: a universe other than our own that that we we

1079
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:27,560
Speaker 1: we have the power to either make it or not

1080
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:30,520
Speaker 1: make it. Should we make it? Well? And then we're

1081
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:33,680
Speaker 1: talking about making it, potentially making universes and having no

1082
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:36,439
Speaker 1: idea what's going on inside them? Again, had they could

1083
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:39,120
Speaker 1: be dead universes. They could be, they could have varying

1084
01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:43,600
Speaker 1: degrees of synthiate life forms, varying degrees of happiness and suffering.

1085
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,040
Speaker 1: And then to what extent is it just we're blind

1086
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:48,920
Speaker 1: to it, so we just put it, you know, out

1087
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 1: of our mind. Yeah, if you're in the physics scenario

1088
01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 1: instead of the simulation scenario, you're becoming something like the

1089
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:58,320
Speaker 1: God of the Enlightenment rationalists or deists, right, not the

1090
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:02,120
Speaker 1: intervening God, but just the clockwork universe god, the one

1091
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:05,480
Speaker 1: who sets in motion a universe with laws guided by

1092
01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:08,320
Speaker 1: laws of physics, but then takes no further action to

1093
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:11,280
Speaker 1: intervene in its machinations. And a lot of people throughout

1094
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:14,040
Speaker 1: the ages have looked at that view of God and said, wow,

1095
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:16,640
Speaker 1: that's a cruel being who would create the whole cosmos

1096
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:19,560
Speaker 1: but then not reach down to save a child drowning

1097
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:21,960
Speaker 1: in a flood or you know, save a family starving

1098
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:26,440
Speaker 1: in a drought ravaged landscape. So if you created this universe,

1099
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:30,280
Speaker 1: presumably you not only would be like that deity who

1100
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:33,280
Speaker 1: doesn't intervene, You couldn't intervene. You wouldn't even have the

1101
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 1: choice too if you wanted to. Yeah, I mean in

1102
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:37,960
Speaker 1: AESSENTI would it would be like God saying, oh, man,

1103
01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 1: I forgot to turn that thing off. I created a

1104
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:43,720
Speaker 1: universe this morning. Um, oh, I hope everything's okay and

1105
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:46,000
Speaker 1: there I'll check back on it at the end. Well,

1106
01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:48,720
Speaker 1: they forgot to turn it off. Yeah. The other option,

1107
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:51,640
Speaker 1: of course is non existence. Then again, so if we're

1108
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:53,880
Speaker 1: saying there might be some ethical problem in creating a

1109
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:57,720
Speaker 1: universe and letting it run without your intervention, um, the

1110
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:00,720
Speaker 1: other alternative is not creating that universe. In this closing

1111
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:03,640
Speaker 1: the possibility that any of the beings who might evolve

1112
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:07,240
Speaker 1: in that universe could ever exist? Is that actually better?

1113
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:09,880
Speaker 1: I mean, are we saying that on average we think

1114
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:14,600
Speaker 1: universes are better not to exist than to exist. And

1115
01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:16,160
Speaker 1: this we kind of get back to that scenario of

1116
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:18,200
Speaker 1: of how much happiness is in the how much suffering?

1117
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:20,120
Speaker 1: And then we look at our own world and say, well,

1118
01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 1: there's a lot of suffering here, But is that part

1119
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:27,919
Speaker 1: of the overall human experience that is somehow worth the pain? Yeah?

1120
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:31,280
Speaker 1: On the whole, we're glad we exist, right, And so

1121
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:34,880
Speaker 1: if we're glad we exist, then should we completely flip

1122
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:37,760
Speaker 1: the script and say, if we're talking about ethical duties

1123
01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:42,080
Speaker 1: and obligations. What if it's our ethical obligation to create

1124
01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:46,240
Speaker 1: as many universes as possible so that as many people

1125
01:02:46,560 --> 01:02:50,040
Speaker 1: possible can exist and enjoy the fruits of existence, and

1126
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:52,280
Speaker 1: to make up for the lousy universes that cut the

1127
01:02:52,360 --> 01:02:55,160
Speaker 1: spring into being, Like, well, if we create five, yeah,

1128
01:02:55,560 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 1: one might be off. And if we just create one,

1129
01:02:57,360 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 1: we might have just created one hell universe. And aren't

1130
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 1: we schmucks for doing so? Yeah, you're you're increasing the

1131
01:03:03,040 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 1: probability that some number of them will be Okay. Then again,

1132
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:08,360
Speaker 1: by that logic, I mean to come back on what

1133
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:11,440
Speaker 1: I just said. If you follow that logic about creating universes,

1134
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:14,600
Speaker 1: shouldn't we all be trying to have as many children

1135
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:17,560
Speaker 1: as we possibly can for our entire lives as long

1136
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:20,880
Speaker 1: as refertile? If if the goal of life is to

1137
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:24,520
Speaker 1: give as many people the opportunity to exist as possible,

1138
01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:28,000
Speaker 1: but are there processing limit? Because it's use the reproduction angle,

1139
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:30,920
Speaker 1: you get into situations of you know, wondering about like

1140
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:35,000
Speaker 1: to what degree can the earth can various uh cultures

1141
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:38,000
Speaker 1: and families even support that many people? And therefore, if

1142
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:40,920
Speaker 1: we're looking at a simulation model purely simulation model, we

1143
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:42,880
Speaker 1: have to say, well, the resolution is going to really

1144
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:46,720
Speaker 1: take a dive right here and uh and and do

1145
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:50,320
Speaker 1: we want to low res universes to UH to exist?

1146
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:52,800
Speaker 1: Can you imagine living in that universe. You're living in

1147
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:56,520
Speaker 1: like thirty five universes down in the simulation and each

1148
01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:59,920
Speaker 1: time a simulated universe makes a simulated universe, it's pixel

1149
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:04,760
Speaker 1: get bigger because you because there's just not enough processing

1150
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:08,120
Speaker 1: power to U to forever enable new universe creations, So

1151
01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 1: we become like eight bit Mario's like a flat land

1152
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:15,200
Speaker 1: kind of scenario, even in the world with extremely simple

1153
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:18,200
Speaker 1: laws of physics that just really don't allow for much

1154
01:04:18,240 --> 01:04:21,520
Speaker 1: to happen. This reminds me there' an episode of Rick

1155
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:24,240
Speaker 1: and Morty titled The Rix Must Be Crazy that explores

1156
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:28,880
Speaker 1: this very basically the same scenario with UH with with

1157
01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:31,800
Speaker 1: with Rick the mad scientist having to create a pocket

1158
01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:35,000
Speaker 1: universe to power his vehicle, and then in that pocket universe,

1159
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:37,240
Speaker 1: they too have created a pocket universe. But in this

1160
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:41,440
Speaker 1: scenario there's travel to each subsequent pocket universe. Oh well,

1161
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:43,920
Speaker 1: I mean that would completely change the stakes, right if

1162
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 1: you could go in and out, And then of course

1163
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:47,880
Speaker 1: you have to to go back to our episode on

1164
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:49,880
Speaker 1: the Tower of Battle. You have to wonder, is a

1165
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 1: Nimrod gonna come along, like a general Nimrod build a

1166
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:57,400
Speaker 1: tower to actually, you know, perform an escalade of your

1167
01:04:57,520 --> 01:05:01,360
Speaker 1: world to invade the greater universe. Yeah, I mean, if

1168
01:05:01,640 --> 01:05:04,120
Speaker 1: if these universes actually could interact, which we don't think

1169
01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:06,480
Speaker 1: they could, if they actually could, you would have to

1170
01:05:06,480 --> 01:05:08,680
Speaker 1: worry about that, right, right, Well, this has been a

1171
01:05:08,720 --> 01:05:11,440
Speaker 1: lot of fun, Robert, Yeah, yeah, I mean, obviously we

1172
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:15,520
Speaker 1: we've barely dipped our toes in all the various uh

1173
01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:18,840
Speaker 1: moral considerations, and of course all the possible sci fi

1174
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:21,920
Speaker 1: scenarios that have been created or could be created to

1175
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:25,439
Speaker 1: line up with this vision of pocket universe. Is maybe

1176
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:26,880
Speaker 1: in the future we can try to come back and

1177
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:29,040
Speaker 1: do that deep dive on inflation. That could be a

1178
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:32,840
Speaker 1: fruitful one if we're ever feeling really, really uh full

1179
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:36,800
Speaker 1: of fortitude. All right, well, hey everyone out there, we'd

1180
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:38,120
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. I know that you have

1181
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:42,040
Speaker 1: some favorite sci fi treatments of this. Maybe, uh maybe

1182
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:45,160
Speaker 1: the the episode of The Simpsons were Lisa Groser tooth

1183
01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:49,080
Speaker 1: in the in in the goog Yeah, or the sand

1184
01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 1: Kings story by George R. Martin and the subsequent outer

1185
01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:55,080
Speaker 1: limits adaptation or other stuff we we're not even thinking about. Likewise,

1186
01:05:55,120 --> 01:05:59,520
Speaker 1: other cosmological models from mythology and religion that line up

1187
01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:01,600
Speaker 1: the little time talking about here today, let us know

1188
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:03,919
Speaker 1: about those. You can find us at stuff to Blow

1189
01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:05,560
Speaker 1: Your Mind dot com. That's where we'll find all the

1190
01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:07,800
Speaker 1: podcast episodes and links out to our various social media

1191
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:11,360
Speaker 1: accounts just Facebook, Twitter, Tumbler, and Instagram, And if you

1192
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:13,320
Speaker 1: want to hit us up directly, as always, you can

1193
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:15,960
Speaker 1: email us at blow the Mind at how stuff works

1194
01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:30,040
Speaker 1: dot com. We're more on this and thousands of other topics.

1195
01:06:30,160 --> 01:06:43,240
Speaker 1: Does it how stuff works dot com b b b

1196
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:40,320
Speaker 1: b b b b b