Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2: Chancellor, thank you very much for joining us. I'm going
Speaker 2: to ask you about the things that you would expect
Speaker 2: me to ask about European security and some of the
Speaker 2: announcements around Tariff's But I wanted to start by making
Speaker 2: an observation about the last few weeks in Washington that
Speaker 2: we have watched this whirlwind of the new administration and
Speaker 2: the impact it's had, not just in the world, but
Speaker 2: in Washington and Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency DOGE
Speaker 2: has turned the federal government upside down in the time
Speaker 2: it takes to read Marrio Druggies report on European Competitiveness,
Speaker 2: let alone start to implement it. So I just wondered,
Speaker 2: when you look at the state of the European economy
Speaker 2: and you look at the pace of change now in Washington,
Speaker 2: does Europe need a DOGE of its own.
Speaker 3: No, we need a lot of changes when everyone needs them.
Speaker 3: So we have to work against red tape, against bureaucracy,
Speaker 3: all this, and there is a strong willingness to succeed
Speaker 3: with attempts about working against planning restrictions that make it
Speaker 3: too difficult to invest, and things like that, and it
Speaker 3: was my initiative, together with the French President, to ask
Speaker 3: the Commission to make proposals about a better European Union
Speaker 3: and to get written of red tape and bureaucracy, and
Speaker 3: they do so. I'm really confident that we will do
Speaker 3: our task and hopefully sensible things.
Speaker 2: But lots of sensible things have been said for years,
Speaker 2: and most of the things that were in the Mario
Speaker 2: Dragon Report have been said many times before. But the
Speaker 2: pace of change is so slow. And meanwhile, you have
Speaker 2: an economy that has been has not grown in the
Speaker 2: time that you've been Chancellor, while the US economy has
Speaker 2: grown seven percent. So don't you sometimes think that a
Speaker 2: kind of radical throwing up of things, a radical change,
Speaker 2: might be needed rather than same old statements.
Speaker 3: As you know, I'm a progressive, I'm a social democrat,
Speaker 3: so I'm in favor of change. But all the time,
Speaker 3: the question is what sort of change it is about.
Speaker 3: And yes, it is necessary that we work hard to
Speaker 3: make it easy to invest in Europe and to get
Speaker 3: rid of some of the regulations that are hindering investments
Speaker 3: to be done very fast. But on the other side,
Speaker 3: I think we have good chances for Europe to grow
Speaker 3: and we have the best in Germany. Yes, it is
Speaker 3: true that we faced a really heavy storm after the
Speaker 3: Russian aggression against Ukraine and all the consequences has had
Speaker 3: for the energy supply to Germany, for prices and many
Speaker 3: other things.
Speaker 1: But we are now behind all the biggest difficulties.
Speaker 3: Inflation is down again and this will also help investments,
Speaker 3: especially when it comes to housing. So I'm quite confident
Speaker 3: that with some extra activities we will have a chance
Speaker 3: to speed up growth. One of the proposs I make
Speaker 3: will be very similar to things you are used to
Speaker 3: in the United States. So it is about the text
Speaker 3: credit which you get for investments in Germany easily to
Speaker 3: be handled and something that will boost investment.
Speaker 2: But if you're a German voter, how can you expect
Speaker 2: change to come out of this election? If you think
Speaker 2: of the possible range of outcomes, when you look at
Speaker 2: the scale of the problems and the stagnation in Europe,
Speaker 2: do you understand the people who think we need radical
Speaker 2: change and we're not going to get it from any
Speaker 2: coalition that comes out of this election.
Speaker 3: I think there will be a good chance for better
Speaker 3: growth when you vote for a social democratic party in Germany.
Speaker 3: So this is I propose others will do a different one,
Speaker 3: but there is.
Speaker 2: Always hasn't been any since you became chancellor.
Speaker 1: We had a crisis, there is a war.
Speaker 3: I was not the one that started the aggression against
Speaker 3: Ukraine at Putin, and we worked against him and his aggression.
Speaker 3: We supported Ukraine, we increased our spending for defense, and
Speaker 3: we organized our economy in a way that it was
Speaker 3: able to live with all these radical changes that.
Speaker 1: Came to us. So now we are at a good
Speaker 1: starting point.
Speaker 3: Coming back to the Union, I'd say the biggest thing
Speaker 3: we have to achieve is to develop the Capital Markets Union,
Speaker 3: which has to come from a question of finance ministers
Speaker 3: to a question of leaders because it is obvious also
Speaker 3: when you look at the Dragon report, that this is
Speaker 3: the main question for better growth in Europe, and so
Speaker 3: we have to do it and not to speak just
Speaker 3: about it and.
Speaker 2: Will there be meaningful progress on that in the next
Speaker 2: few months.
Speaker 3: I've spoken to many and also that this is a
Speaker 3: leadership question, and this means that many have to.
Speaker 1: Be ready to accept that not all these small.
Speaker 3: Advantages of the one country and the other one country
Speaker 3: could continue. It is better to have a capital market
Speaker 3: in Europe that is ready to find the growth of
Speaker 3: companies from the equity market. And that's what we are
Speaker 3: having to do. And that's the big difference between the
Speaker 3: United States and Europe. Though we have even more money
Speaker 3: for investment in Europe.
Speaker 2: Donald Trump does seem to be President Trump seems to
Speaker 2: be in a hurry to put tariffs on European cars.
Speaker 2: Should the European Union might happen as soon as April.
Speaker 2: Should the European Union be cutting their tariffs in advance
Speaker 2: of that? To avoid that?
Speaker 3: First, I have to admit that I'm in favor of
Speaker 3: free trade. I think this is a big advantage we
Speaker 3: have in the world, and that many of the wealth
Speaker 3: and the growth we have in the world is because
Speaker 3: of free trade. So it must be fair free trade. Trade, yes,
Speaker 3: but free trade is better than tariffs and protectionism.
Speaker 1: I don't think that this.
Speaker 3: Will work when it comes to the European Union. I
Speaker 3: think everyone knows that we are a big economic area
Speaker 3: with a lot of strength, where policy about tariffs is
Speaker 3: something that is our common policy. So we are strong
Speaker 3: enough to react to everything that is harming European economy.
Speaker 3: But we should and we should react always, but in
Speaker 3: a way that is always offering the chance for an
Speaker 3: agreement because it's better for all parties involved, especially on
Speaker 3: the both sides of the Atlantic.
Speaker 2: But it is the Opini Union considering cutting tariffs before
Speaker 2: any announcement on cars.
Speaker 3: We invite the United States to discuss with the responsible
Speaker 3: authorities about what we can do for a better progress
Speaker 3: that serves all of us.
Speaker 1: There is a willingness, and.
Speaker 3: So I'm sure it's better if we agree to something
Speaker 3: that helps all of us. And it is good to
Speaker 3: know that Europe is strong enough to act and to react.
Speaker 2: You talk about it being a common project, but Donald
Speaker 2: Trump has made clear that he wants to do reciprocal tariffs.
Speaker 2: He doesn't want a wto approach where all the rules
Speaker 2: are on the same countries, And even with the European Union,
Speaker 2: he might want to have a different tariff regime for
Speaker 2: France and Italy and Germany. What would you do? Then?
Speaker 3: The European Union is a unified economy and has there's
Speaker 3: nothing to stop the US doing that, but it has
Speaker 3: common tariffs and we act together and we will stick together,
Speaker 3: which I think is also important. And so I'm quite
Speaker 3: confident that a good solution is feasible and everyone should
Speaker 3: work or make it happen.
Speaker 2: You spoke this morning very clearly about what you need
Speaker 2: to do to increase defense spending above two percent of
Speaker 2: GDP and suspending the debt break just for that additional
Speaker 2: defense spending, but for many countries it will want to
Speaker 2: also have joint debt issuance for Europe as a whole
Speaker 2: to be able to invest enough in defense. Would you
Speaker 2: consider that given everything that's happened in the last few.
Speaker 3: Weeks, I think there are three things we can do
Speaker 3: in this very moment. The first is that we agree
Speaker 3: in Germany that supporting Ukraine is something of an extra effort,
Speaker 3: so we should have extra room for maneuver also financing
Speaker 3: this support to Ukraine, which when it comes to the figures,
Speaker 3: Germany is doing the most. We are the biggest support
Speaker 3: of Ukraine in Europe, the second biggest in the world,
Speaker 3: and this has to continue. We cannot pay for it
Speaker 3: with cuttings in pension schemes or in the health sector,
Speaker 3: or in cuttings in the investment into streets and railways
Speaker 3: and so on. So I think it's clear that we
Speaker 3: have to do this. And the second is that we
Speaker 3: have to agree how we will continue with the spending
Speaker 3: of more than two percent of our GDP for defense,
Speaker 3: which we achieved because of an extra fund which I
Speaker 3: managed to get through the parliament. But for the future
Speaker 3: we need a new decision about this and this is
Speaker 3: for continuing with this two percent plus already thirty billion
Speaker 3: a year. So also this will not work with tax
Speaker 3: increases or cuttings and spending in the different areas of
Speaker 3: the German budget. When it comes to do more, which
Speaker 3: will be obviously necessary when we look at what NATO
Speaker 3: is discussing, then it especially means that we do something
Speaker 3: for this activities which gives us in Germany the opportunity
Speaker 3: to spend even more.
Speaker 1: And this has also to do with.
Speaker 3: The reform of the debt regulation in Germany. When it
Speaker 3: comes to Europe, I think we should help every country
Speaker 3: if it spends more than two percent, to be not
Speaker 3: hindered by the European regulation on treating.
Speaker 2: Changing the stability.
Speaker 3: We have to change these agreements so that this is
Speaker 3: feasible for a country to do.
Speaker 2: But for many countries, I mean, for Germany has very
Speaker 2: low debt relative to other countries.
Speaker 1: As we might say that we are going down to
Speaker 1: sixty percent.
Speaker 2: Other countries will find it very difficult to keep issuing
Speaker 2: more and more debt because, as you pointed out, they're
Speaker 2: over one hundred percent, maybe over one hundred and forty
Speaker 2: percent of GDP. You don't think this is a time
Speaker 2: for joint debt issuance. All of the things that have happened.
Speaker 3: It's a very difficult question to go into it.
Speaker 1: And I was the.
Speaker 3: Designer of the Recovery Fund, which we had after the
Speaker 3: Corona crisis, or during the Corona crisis to go through
Speaker 3: this very difficult times, and the idea was that we
Speaker 3: have something which is giving direct support to countries and
Speaker 3: other aspects, which is just another way of taking money
Speaker 3: from the market. So my view is that the first
Speaker 3: thing to do is now to give room for acting
Speaker 3: to the different member states, and.
Speaker 2: It sounds like that could be a model for expanding
Speaker 2: defense spending in the future for Europe. I think this
Speaker 2: is the Recovery Fund.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, this is not the model.
Speaker 3: I was really precise this morning saying that what I
Speaker 3: propose is to give the countries the room for extra spending.
Speaker 2: In this debates about Ukraine, I they we're running out
Speaker 2: of time. But did you know that US and Russian
Speaker 2: officials will be meeting in Saudi Arabia next week? Were
Speaker 2: you informed of that before the news broke that they
Speaker 2: were meeting to discuss Ukraine.
Speaker 3: It's absolutely clear that there will be debates between Russia
Speaker 3: and the United States about this question. I spoke to
Speaker 3: President Trump very early about how to support Ukraine.
Speaker 1: My plea is that there.
Speaker 3: Should be first the message to put in that Europe
Speaker 3: and the United States will continue with their support to Ukraine,
Speaker 3: because he has to understand that he cannot hope that
Speaker 3: we stop our support.
Speaker 2: But the US officials at this meeting have made clear
Speaker 2: that Europe's not going to be at the table in
Speaker 2: any of the important conversations. How can you you're not.
Speaker 3: I'm sure that there will be no solution possible over
Speaker 3: the heads of the Ukrainians. And obviously, if someone wants
Speaker 3: Europe to be involved in the structures of peace in
Speaker 3: the future, it is necessary and to discuss with Europe
Speaker 3: and to implement the European leaders into this decision making processes.
Speaker 2: President Trump only seems to want to talk to one person.
Speaker 2: He doesn't want to talk to Europe. So who should
Speaker 2: be that one person shouldn't be nominated person to talk
Speaker 2: to Donald Trump y as how he likes to do business.
Speaker 3: I think that the European Union has its own bodies
Speaker 3: for acting. And on the other hand, I will be
Speaker 3: very clear it is Europe that spends even more as
Speaker 3: the United States in the support of Ukraine. And this
Speaker 3: is the basis for saying that everyone should count with us.
Speaker 2: When we spoke a few years ago, we were talking
Speaker 2: about this before we started that when it was seemed
Speaker 2: very unlikely in an election campaign where it seemed very
Speaker 2: unlikely that you would end up as chancellor, and then
Speaker 2: you were proved right and the doubters were wrong. Do
Speaker 2: you have a rabbit your sleeve for the next week
Speaker 2: because the polls you started off far behind and they
Speaker 2: have not got any better.
Speaker 3: I'm sure that that will happen again. What we are rabbit,
Speaker 3: It will happen again that the Social Democratic Party and
Speaker 3: myself will get the vote from the people to continue
Speaker 3: with leading the government.
Speaker 1: As it was the case.
Speaker 2: What evidence for that, Chancellor?
Speaker 3: The people are wondering who is the right one to
Speaker 3: do this, and they are not decided yet. If we
Speaker 3: look at the many that have not made up their
Speaker 3: mind and many things are happening, so it is obvious
Speaker 3: that in this time the real decision will really happen
Speaker 3: in the places where the people give up their vote.
Speaker 2: What do you think they would need to be deciding
Speaker 2: on thinking about most in order to change their minds
Speaker 2: of vote for you?
Speaker 3: One important question is One important question is defense and
Speaker 3: security and peace in Europe. I think they can trust
Speaker 3: the Antler when it comes to the handling of problems dealing.
Speaker 1: With peace and security. It's about growth. I have a
Speaker 1: very
Speaker 3: Concrete proposal how we can increase growth in Germany and
Speaker 3: it's about social cohesion.