Speaker 1: I'm Emily Chang, and this is the circuit. Google has
Speaker 1: been the front door of the Internet for more than
Speaker 1: two decades. Now there are so many other doors TikTok, Instagram, Amazon,
Speaker 1: Reddit and of course Open Ai with chat, GPT and
Speaker 1: so many rising AI players. Google may not be the
Speaker 1: first place you go for answers anymore. So the question
Speaker 1: is what are they going to do about it? I'm
Speaker 1: at the person in charge of answering that question. Alphabet
Speaker 1: and Google CEO Sundhar Pachai. At Google's campus in Mountain View.
Speaker 1: We had a wide ranging discussion about where the search
Speaker 1: giant stands in this AI moment ahead of its big
Speaker 1: annual Google Io conference. Joining me now, Alphabet and Google
Speaker 1: CEO Sundhar Pachai, thank you for doing this. US really
Speaker 1: appreciate it well.
Speaker 2: Hikewise, and you've.
Speaker 1: Got a big event to prepare for you. What does
Speaker 1: it take to steer something as large as Google? And
Speaker 1: has your answer changed in the last ten years?
Speaker 3: I think the part Whige hasn't changed is I think
Speaker 3: we are a deep technology company and so we focus
Speaker 3: at that level and AI is the best example of that.
Speaker 3: So focusing at that level and making sure you're driving
Speaker 3: innovation there and translating it into products and solutions. So
Speaker 3: I think that part doesn't change. But at the scale,
Speaker 3: at what we do with many different businesses, you have
Speaker 3: to find a way to focus and channel on the
Speaker 3: real areas that matter, so that takes constant work.
Speaker 1: I think you're bringing in three hundred billion dollars in
Speaker 1: revenue a year, making more money faster than ever before,
Speaker 1: from multiple businesses. What does printing money look like in
Speaker 1: the age of AI.
Speaker 3: These things take time. For example, in a we just
Speaker 3: announced that a combination of YouTube and cloud will like
Speaker 3: sit Q four at an undredate of over one hundred
Speaker 3: million dollars. Now, we build this businesses over the past
Speaker 3: eight years or so, right, and so these things take
Speaker 3: time and you have to have a long term view
Speaker 3: and invest to its. We are doing the same beach search, YouTube, cloud, Android.
Speaker 3: We have longer term bets like subscriptions, way more and
Speaker 3: so on. So again you're investing and you build it
Speaker 3: over time, and that's what translates into revenue and business success.
Speaker 1: Search is still the heart of Google. Some leading computer
Speaker 1: scientists have said search is getting worse. More seo spam
Speaker 1: et cetera. Do you see their point.
Speaker 3: Part of what makes search a hard problem where we
Speaker 3: put all our focuses. Anytime there's a transition, you get
Speaker 3: an explosion of new content, and AI is going to
Speaker 3: do that. So for us, we view this as the challenge,
Speaker 3: which is what will define the work we do. So
Speaker 3: the reason at Google we take pride in our search
Speaker 3: quality teams is to separate the high quality content from
Speaker 3: low quality content.
Speaker 2: So we have.
Speaker 3: Always, through many, many years of search, there are moments
Speaker 3: where we see arise in new content, which is both
Speaker 3: great because it allows for richer information to come in,
Speaker 3: but there's a lot of spam that comes into so
Speaker 3: solving that is a viewed as strength of search. Over
Speaker 3: the past few months, we have announced a set of
Speaker 3: changes and we are getting started making sure search will
Speaker 3: again do the same through this AI moment, and I
Speaker 3: actually think there'll be people will struggle to do that right.
Speaker 3: So doing that well is what will define a high
Speaker 3: quality product, and I think it's going to be the
Speaker 3: heart of what makes such successful.
Speaker 1: The choices you make influence how billions of people get
Speaker 1: their information, and if the new Google is only going
Speaker 1: to be more and more AI, AI is super helpful
Speaker 1: sometimes but sometimes it's still deeply wrong. Where do you
Speaker 1: draw the line?
Speaker 3: I think part of what makes Google Search differentiator is
Speaker 3: while there are times we give answers, it will always
Speaker 3: link to a wide variety of sources, and so the
Speaker 3: ability we know from having served users for a long time.
Speaker 3: We've had an answers in search now for many minus years.
Speaker 3: We are just now using Generator AI to do that.
Speaker 3: But we know people want to explore more. They have
Speaker 3: an interest in the curiosity.
Speaker 1: And so the links will live on, yes, and.
Speaker 3: It will always be an important part of search. That's
Speaker 3: what users want, and so there will be times when
Speaker 3: they want quick answers.
Speaker 2: And I gave the earlier example.
Speaker 3: My son is Celiac, so we did a quick question
Speaker 3: to see whether something is included and free. We just
Speaker 3: want to know, but often it leads to more things,
Speaker 3: and you know then you want to explore more. So
Speaker 3: people have intent different intent. I think understanding that meeting
Speaker 3: all that needs is part of what makes such unique.
Speaker 1: The images that Gemini initially generated of Asian Nazis and
Speaker 1: black founding fathers, you said that was unacceptable. Why haven't
Speaker 1: you re released this yet?
Speaker 3: We obviously have instituted a set of changes organizationally, process wise,
Speaker 3: investing more in red teaming. We realize it's an opportunity.
Speaker 3: We are training our next generation of image models, so
Speaker 3: from the ground up, retraining these models just to make
Speaker 3: sure we're also making the product better. As part of that,
Speaker 3: we viewed it as an opportunity to do everything from
Speaker 3: the ground up correct and so we are working on
Speaker 3: that and as soon as it's ready, we'll.
Speaker 2: Get it out to people.
Speaker 1: So it's going to be a while.
Speaker 2: I don't think so.
Speaker 3: I think it will be a few weeks from now,
Speaker 3: but you know, we are definitely making great progress there,
Speaker 3: so we'll be out.
Speaker 1: So now people are calling this Woki, and it's not
Speaker 1: just happening here, it's happening across the industry. The way
Speaker 1: I understand it, AI is built on patterns that it sees,
Speaker 1: which if you look at any pictures of the founding fathers,
Speaker 1: you're seeing old white men. How did the model generate
Speaker 1: something that it never saw?
Speaker 3: We explained this before, but what we did obviously we
Speaker 3: are a company which serves products to users around the world,
Speaker 3: and there are generic questions. For example, people come and say,
Speaker 3: show me images of school teachers or doctors or nurses,
Speaker 3: and we want it to be representative. You know, we
Speaker 3: have people asking dis query from Indonesia or the US.
Speaker 3: How do you get it right for our global user base.
Speaker 3: So that's what we were trying to get right. Obviously,
Speaker 3: the mistake was that we over applied, including cases where
Speaker 3: it should have never applied. So that was the bug,
Speaker 3: and you know, we got it wrong, So we're investing
Speaker 3: more in testing and re teaming to make sure that
Speaker 3: doesn't happen.
Speaker 1: Would you say it's like good intentions gone awry.
Speaker 3: In this particular case, Yes, but still we are rightfully
Speaker 3: held to a high bar and I think we clearly
Speaker 3: take responsibility for it and we're going to get it right.
Speaker 1: How concerned are you about AI generated content ruining search?
Speaker 1: For example, the AI generated selfie of the tank man
Speaker 1: in tenem and square. It shows up in Google search results,
Speaker 1: but it never happened.
Speaker 3: The challenge for everyone and the opportunity is how do
Speaker 3: you have a notion of what's objective and real in
Speaker 3: a world where there's going to be a lot of
Speaker 3: synthetic content. I think it's part of what will define
Speaker 3: search in the next decade ahead. For example, in AMA
Speaker 3: search being able to detect AI generated content also over time,
Speaker 3: showing provenance. When did this image first appear online? Giving sources?
Speaker 3: You know, it's the kind of work we are undertaking,
Speaker 3: right so I actually see it as an opportunity. We
Speaker 3: see this today, even in this world of AI, people
Speaker 3: often come to Google right away to see whether something
Speaker 3: they saw somewhere else actually happen. It's a common pattern
Speaker 3: we see, and so we understand what people are trying
Speaker 3: to do, and so we're working very, very hard. We
Speaker 3: are making progress, but it's going to be an ongoing journey.
Speaker 1: That's such an interesting point. How much of content on
Speaker 1: Google is AI generated? And is that percentage growing? How
Speaker 1: do you track it, how do you categorize it? And
Speaker 1: do you worry about it degrading the results over time?
Speaker 3: If he stands still for sure there is more AI
Speaker 3: generated content. We just announced a new set of guidelines
Speaker 3: for ranking and quality, and as part of that, we
Speaker 3: are using AI to make our algorithms better to detect
Speaker 3: and we want to elevate human voices in human perspectives,
Speaker 3: and so that is the core work we are undertaking.
Speaker 1: Will llms ever be truly reliable or is there a
Speaker 1: ceiling to their accuracy.
Speaker 2: It's a great question. You know.
Speaker 3: Llms are essentially predicting the next words in a sequence
Speaker 3: or so on, and so today they can hallucinate. I
Speaker 3: think they will get better. We will also have newer breakthroughs. So,
Speaker 3: for example, in search, when we are using llms for AIO, ABUWSE,
Speaker 3: we are grounding it. We call it grounding in the
Speaker 3: underlying search results. So we check it to make sure
Speaker 3: what it's saying there is accurate. So we focus on factuality.
Speaker 3: So you're trying to harness the creativity of llms, but
Speaker 3: grounding it to be factual. So there are going to
Speaker 3: be more and more techniques we will all work on.
Speaker 3: We are definitely very very focused on it. So I
Speaker 3: think this will be an area of debate. I think
Speaker 3: we will constantly make progress on this. That's the way
Speaker 3: I think about it.
Speaker 1: But will they ever be perfectly right?
Speaker 3: I think as long as it's anchored and presented in
Speaker 3: a product with supporting information, I think it can be
Speaker 3: if you just stand alone give an LLM answer. We
Speaker 3: see this today people if they've read something somewhere and
Speaker 3: they don't know whether it's true, they come to Google
Speaker 3: to check whether it's true. So we understand this, and
Speaker 3: so we'll always ground it with sources and pointing it
Speaker 3: to what others have written about it, etc.
Speaker 1: You make a ton of money on ads next to
Speaker 1: the links generated by searches. If a chatbot is giving
Speaker 1: you answers and not links, and maybe more answers than links.
Speaker 1: Sometimes are we in the midst of an assault on
Speaker 1: Google's business model.
Speaker 3: What we've always seen people ask questions like that when
Speaker 3: people switch from desktop to mobile. What we've always seen
Speaker 3: is we don't show ads on a vast majority of
Speaker 3: our queries. We show it when users have a commercial intent, right.
Speaker 3: People are looking for commercial content and their ads happen
Speaker 3: to be a value source of information. So you have
Speaker 3: merchants trying to reach users in those moments. So we've
Speaker 3: always found people want choices, including in commercial areas, and
Speaker 3: that's a fundamental need and I think we've always been
Speaker 3: able to balance it. As we are rolling out Aiovius
Speaker 3: and search, we've been experimenting with ads, and the data
Speaker 3: we se shows that those fundamental principles will hold true
Speaker 3: during the space as well.
Speaker 1: Now, every keystroke, every email, everything we've searched is data
Speaker 1: that we've given to Google, and that can all be
Speaker 1: fed into your AI models, which is a huge competitive advantage.
Speaker 1: What debates are you having internally about how you use
Speaker 1: that data?
Speaker 3: We give a lot of controls to users. You can
Speaker 3: automatically delete your data in Google as you use it,
Speaker 3: and for AI, like for example, if you use Gemini,
Speaker 3: you know we don't use your data to train the models.
Speaker 3: In general, there may be cases in use cases where
Speaker 3: we will get permission to do so, but I've always
Speaker 3: felt for two decades people uses in products like Gmail,
Speaker 3: Google Photos. We've earned that trust because we don't misuse
Speaker 3: that data. I think that's the foundation on which we
Speaker 3: are achieving our success. So privacy is always foundational day
Speaker 3: everything we do, and that'll be true even with AI
Speaker 3: as well.
Speaker 1: When did you learn open ai was using YouTube transcripts
Speaker 1: to train its models and what's your position on that?
Speaker 3: I mean, it's a question for OpenAI to answer. We
Speaker 3: have clearly stated policies in terms of what is acceptable
Speaker 3: use for YouTube, and so we'll definitely expect others to
Speaker 3: abide by the guidelines. So that's how I think about it.
Speaker 1: Meantime, you've got AI systems that are running out of
Speaker 1: training data, like, what are the implications of that?
Speaker 3: I think one of the challenges is going to be
Speaker 3: as we scale to the next generation of models and
Speaker 3: the models get much larger than they are today, you know,
Speaker 3: what is the source of training data? I think there
Speaker 3: is still data which is not included in these models
Speaker 3: that can be included that can be useful. But I
Speaker 3: think over time, if you look at Alpha Go, which
Speaker 3: is a product which we designed to solve Go and
Speaker 3: chess and so on, AI models learned by playing.
Speaker 2: With each other.
Speaker 3: So in the field you call this self play, there
Speaker 3: are notions of synthetic data. So over time there's this
Speaker 3: notion of can you have models create outputs for other
Speaker 3: models to learn? These are all research areas now, so
Speaker 3: I think those are all important areas where we will
Speaker 3: achieve breakthroughs to continue making progress.
Speaker 1: Right now, you've got companies turning to AI generated data
Speaker 1: to train their models. Aren't there risks to that?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 3: I think that through it all, are you creating new knowledge?
Speaker 3: Are these models developing reasoning capabilities?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: Are you're making progress and intelligence of these models? I
Speaker 3: think those are the frontiers we need to prove that
Speaker 3: you can do that by using these techniques, and to
Speaker 3: be very clear, these are the cutting age research areas
Speaker 3: where we are investing a lot of resources.
Speaker 1: On that data is the new oil and lms are
Speaker 1: proving that out all over again. But do we need
Speaker 1: new laws? Can I really publish an article online and say,
Speaker 1: but the AI can't train on it.
Speaker 3: We allow people who are creating content to opt out,
Speaker 3: specifically out of our Gemini training models, and so we've
Speaker 3: given the choice for people to opt out. You know,
Speaker 3: I think it's an important moment where we have to
Speaker 3: balance what has always been important notions of fair use
Speaker 3: and how can you use it for derivative work and
Speaker 3: how do you protect the rights of content holders. I
Speaker 3: think that's these are important questions and it's important we
Speaker 3: strike the right balance even through a moment like that,
Speaker 3: And I think both notions are equally important.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know you've said there will be more and
Speaker 1: more breakthroughs, But is LLM technology nearing a plateau?
Speaker 3: I would be surprised if llms are the only thing
Speaker 3: we would need to make progress. Right, So, the way
Speaker 3: I would think about it is already the current generation
Speaker 3: of While we call it LLMS, there are a lot
Speaker 3: of underlying breakthroughs. Many of it were developed at Google
Speaker 3: transformers or contributing to the mixture of experts, architecture underneath
Speaker 3: these models, or reinforcement learning with human feedback. There are
Speaker 3: a lot of breakthroughs which have gone into what makes
Speaker 3: AI generatd AI what it is today, and so I
Speaker 3: expect to have more breakthroughs, whether we think of as
Speaker 3: next generation of llms or just AI making progress that
Speaker 3: it is a definitional thing, but what is more important
Speaker 3: is we are driving that progress. One of the things
Speaker 3: that excites me about Google Deep Mind is we are
Speaker 3: not only building the cutting edge models. We are investing
Speaker 3: a lot of computing and resources our aid such as
Speaker 3: talent in driving the next generation set of breakthroughs. So
Speaker 3: we are doing that equally with a lot of focus,
Speaker 3: which is what gives me a lot of optimism we
Speaker 3: will have more breakthroughs.
Speaker 1: There are big concerns that AI is creating this underclass
Speaker 1: of workers that are pouring through pages and pages of
Speaker 1: text and video and images while in upper class gets richer.
Speaker 1: What do you do about that?
Speaker 3: The answer to a lot of this is companies need
Speaker 3: to have a bar to make sure workers are well
Speaker 3: taken care of. Over the past few years, we've had
Speaker 3: to invest, for example, when people were monitoring content on YouTube,
Speaker 3: how do you support people better? So I think there
Speaker 3: are ways by which you can take care of workers
Speaker 3: well being through these things. So I think those are
Speaker 3: important notions, important principles, and I think the same principles
Speaker 3: apply during this AI moment as well.
Speaker 1: Training all these models requires a ton of energy. How
Speaker 1: does the industry keep up the demand for this computing
Speaker 1: power without ruining the planet.
Speaker 3: It's definitely very important to get right. At Google, we've
Speaker 3: been carbon neutral since two thousand and seven, and over
Speaker 3: time we've made a lot of renewable energy investments and commitments.
Speaker 3: Some of our largest AI data centers today run almost
Speaker 3: entirely on carbon free so we have to really push
Speaker 3: the bus boundaries year. I think the question is the
Speaker 3: pace of inflection we are seeing with computing will make
Speaker 3: this an extraordinary challenge, particularly in a three year plus timeframe,
Speaker 3: So it's going to be important to keep up that focus.
Speaker 3: We have definitely stated goals and we're going to try
Speaker 3: really hard to make sure we can do this very sustainably.
Speaker 1: You know, as we were talking about you pivoted the
Speaker 1: company to be AI first years ago. But it seems
Speaker 1: when you look at the big picture, like Google missed
Speaker 1: the big moment and chat Ept took it. If you
Speaker 1: could go back, what would you do differently?
Speaker 3: To be clear, I take a long term perspective and say,
Speaker 3: when the Internet just first came about, Google didn't even
Speaker 3: exist there, right, So we were in the first company
Speaker 3: to do search, we were in the first company to
Speaker 3: do email, we were in the first company to build
Speaker 3: a browser. So I view this ais we are in
Speaker 3: the earliest possible stages, and we've built so much foundational
Speaker 3: components within the company, and we are channeling all that
Speaker 3: to innovate ahead. So I think we are exceptionally well
Speaker 3: set up. You always look back and say, well, if
Speaker 3: you had done this differently or something. You do that
Speaker 3: to learn and make the company better, But at any
Speaker 3: given time, you want to be forward focused in terms
Speaker 3: of what you can do from this moment on, and
Speaker 3: that's what we've been focused on. I see the relentless
Speaker 3: space at which the teams are innovating now within Google,
Speaker 3: and when I look at twenty twenty four, the year ahead,
Speaker 3: I'm excited at our roadmap, and so I feel very optimistic.
Speaker 1: Your leadership style has been described as slow and steady
Speaker 1: and cautious, sometimes maybe too cautious. And you're often compared
Speaker 1: to these other tech leaders who are moving fast and
Speaker 1: breaking things. How would you describe yourself?
Speaker 3: The reality, I think is quite different. One of the
Speaker 3: first things I did when I became a CEO is
Speaker 3: to pivot the company sharply to focus on AI as
Speaker 3: well as really invest more in YouTube and cloud to
Speaker 3: build them into big businesses. These are big, important decisions
Speaker 3: and consequential decisions. I constantly look to make those decisions.
Speaker 3: I think the larger the company is, you are making
Speaker 3: fewer consequential decisions, but they need to be clear and
Speaker 3: you have to point the whole company to that. Part
Speaker 3: of that at times involves bringing the company along. You
Speaker 3: build consensus because that's what allows you to have maximum
Speaker 3: impact behind those decisions. But I think in the technology
Speaker 3: industry you have to make fast decisions.
Speaker 2: You have to move at a fast pace.
Speaker 3: If you don't do that, we won't be as successful
Speaker 3: today as we are, so we'll continue to do that
Speaker 3: as we move ahead.
Speaker 1: Any leader in a position like yours has to be
Speaker 1: willing to hear the criticism, and I'm not going to
Speaker 1: make you read the mean tweets like they do on
Speaker 1: late night, But I do have a few Where is
Speaker 1: Google running things through legal? Google doesn't have one single
Speaker 1: visionary leader, not a one. Do you think you're the
Speaker 1: right person.
Speaker 2: To lead Google? Look, it's a privilege to lead the company.
Speaker 3: I look at all the progress we have made, and
Speaker 3: I look at the opportunity ahead. It's definitely the privilege
Speaker 3: of lifetime. I think people will see the progress the
Speaker 3: company is making. You know, as I said earlier, I
Speaker 3: think people tend to focus in this micro moment, but
Speaker 3: it is so small.
Speaker 2: In the context of what's ahead.
Speaker 3: And when I look at the opportunities ahead across everything
Speaker 3: we do, and for the first time all of that
Speaker 3: as a common leverage technology with AI, I'd put a
Speaker 3: lot of chips, at least from my perspective, on Google.
Speaker 1: All Right, good to know, one more backward looking question,
Speaker 1: and then we're going to look only forward. Google researchers
Speaker 1: invented the transformer, literally the T and GPT. Do you
Speaker 1: wish you capitalized on that? Louder and sooner?
Speaker 3: People underestimate part of what has made search better. We
Speaker 3: use transformers in search. Berth and mom. These are all
Speaker 3: transformer based models in search. That's what led to large
Speaker 3: gaps in search quality compared to other products. So we've
Speaker 3: infused transformers across our products. We have a chance to
Speaker 3: do that better with Generating AI and with the Gemini
Speaker 3: series of models, and we are doing that across our
Speaker 3: product portfolio as well as providing it to businesses everywhere
Speaker 3: using Google Cloud. Again, I feel there's going to be
Speaker 3: more breakthroughs in this field, and so it feels like
Speaker 3: we are well set up, we are moving fast and
Speaker 3: there's a lot of innovation ahead.
Speaker 1: You recently fired Google employees who were protesting your work
Speaker 1: this contract with the Israeli government for cloud services. It
Speaker 1: seemed like a distinct change in tone for a company
Speaker 1: that's historically welcomed all kinds of views. Why did you
Speaker 1: take this.
Speaker 3: Stand Well, first of all, it's important to step back.
Speaker 3: I think as a company, we've always had a culture
Speaker 3: of vibrant and open debate. I think it's directly has
Speaker 3: led to a culture of creativity and collaboration, pushing each
Speaker 3: other to build better products. I think it's always worked
Speaker 3: best when it's in the service of our mission and
Speaker 3: what we are doing for our users, So I think
Speaker 3: that's an important principle to keep in mind. I think,
Speaker 3: more than any the company, we give various ways by
Speaker 3: which employees can praise their concerns, and we take them seriously,
Speaker 3: and that hasn't changed. But it has to happen in
Speaker 3: a framework of a respectful debate and the civilized debate,
Speaker 3: and in a way that it does not disrupt the workplace.
Speaker 3: We are a business, I think in a vast, vast,
Speaker 3: vast majority of employees you know, buide by that. I
Speaker 3: think when we have cases, including in this case, but
Speaker 3: a few employees cross beyond what's in the court of
Speaker 3: contact and disrupt the productivity of the workplace, or do
Speaker 3: so in a way that it makes other people feel uncomfortable,
Speaker 3: I think we have to take action, and that's what
Speaker 3: we are doing. There's nothing to do with the matter
Speaker 3: or the topic they are discussing. It's about the conduct
Speaker 3: of ulevent about it.
Speaker 1: I've talked to a lot of employees about this, actually,
Speaker 1: and some folks thought it was a little draconian, But
Speaker 1: some of your employees were glad to see you taking
Speaker 1: a stand. Is this a new Google or.
Speaker 2: A new you?
Speaker 3: Almost all the employees here who I've talked to agree
Speaker 3: with the decision. I think they definitely don't think this
Speaker 3: is the way you express disagreement. So I think it
Speaker 3: is important. Over the past years, through the pandemic, the
Speaker 3: company has grown a lot, so sometimes for a large company,
Speaker 3: it's worth going back and restating what you mean. And
Speaker 3: I think it's partly what I did, you know, re
Speaker 3: anchoring the company. I view, particularly in this moment with AI,
Speaker 3: the opportunity we have ahead of us is immense, but
Speaker 3: it needs a real focus on our mission. So I
Speaker 3: felt it was more important than ever to REI trade
Speaker 3: that to the company.
Speaker 1: There have been multiple rounds of layoffs. Why take this approach,
Speaker 1: Why not cut once and cut deep.
Speaker 3: It's a moment of growth and investment as well. But
Speaker 3: rather than just do it by hiring, we are reallocating
Speaker 3: people to our highest priorities. So that's what this hard
Speaker 3: work is. There are cases where you're simplifying teams, You're
Speaker 3: moving people to focus on newer areas. There are times
Speaker 3: here simplifying the organization, removing layers so that you can
Speaker 3: improve velocity. So I think these are deliberate changes being
Speaker 3: undertaken by teams with a view too. It's making the
Speaker 3: company better and making sure we are putting as many
Speaker 3: people against our highest priorities. And so that's why we
Speaker 3: have taken the time to do it correctly.
Speaker 1: And BA Microsoft is obviously making huge investments in AI
Speaker 1: as well, open Ai, Inflection and Stroll. We've reported that
Speaker 1: their open ai investment was actually impartant because they were
Speaker 1: worried about Google and wanted to catch up. How do
Speaker 1: you feel about the competition there and should regulators be
Speaker 1: looking at it?
Speaker 3: If anything, I look at AI and I see a vibrant,
Speaker 3: dynamic competitive field, which is great. We'll really push innovation ahead.
Speaker 3: I think of always tell the view if you're working
Speaker 3: in the technology space, there is a lot of competition.
Speaker 3: We see it all the time. The way you stay
Speaker 3: ahead is by innovating relentlessly, right, I think it has
Speaker 3: be true all the time, and so I think we've
Speaker 3: done that with search, will continue to do that with
Speaker 3: search across our other products, be it YouTube and so on.
Speaker 3: So I view this is no different. It's just that
Speaker 3: it's happening at a faster pace. But you know, technology
Speaker 3: changes tend to get faster over time, so it's not
Speaker 3: surprising to me at all.
Speaker 1: Microsoft Ceosauch and Adela has had some fighting words and moves.
Speaker 1: Who's really choosing the dance music?
Speaker 3: I think one of the ways you can do the
Speaker 3: wrong thing is by listening to Noise South Terre and
Speaker 3: playing to someone else's dance music. I've always been very clear.
Speaker 3: I think we have a clear sense of what we
Speaker 3: need to do. We've been gearing up this for a
Speaker 3: long time, and that's what you'll stay focused on.
Speaker 1: All right, So you're listening to your own music, That's
Speaker 1: that's exactly right. Mark Zuckerberg is making waves as an
Speaker 1: open source AI player. Are you going to let him
Speaker 1: own that narrative?
Speaker 2: Look?
Speaker 3: I think there's going to be important open source contributions.
Speaker 3: I think it's important for the field. I mean, Google
Speaker 3: is published and shared. I had a lot of knowledge
Speaker 3: to make this field progress forward. We are doing that
Speaker 3: with some early models as well. We've announced him a
Speaker 3: series of open models. I think it's great that there's
Speaker 3: more open source memutum beat from Mistral, beat from Meta.
Speaker 3: I think I would expect that in the field, and
Speaker 3: I think it's good to keep the frontier of innovation moving.
Speaker 1: Any chance you want to buy TikTok now.
Speaker 3: I think we are focused on the products we are doing,
Speaker 3: so it's not something we are looking at.
Speaker 1: What does a TikTok band mean for Google?
Speaker 3: I think it's not clear there'll be a ban on TikTok.
Speaker 3: I think the bill that's passed allows for a sale
Speaker 3: of the product, so it's too early to tell. I
Speaker 3: think there are many wayses could play out, but in
Speaker 3: all scenarios, I think there will be a version of
Speaker 3: the product maybe around for users. So not spending too
Speaker 3: much time thinking about it.
Speaker 1: Apple and Google are huge partners in a search deal
Speaker 1: struck years ago. Will you be partners on Gemini too?
Speaker 1: And to be clear, we've reported that Apple's talking to
Speaker 1: both Google and open Ai.
Speaker 3: We don't comment on partent discussions, but we've always cared
Speaker 3: about making sure people can access our products easily. I
Speaker 3: think it's consistent with our mission of making our products
Speaker 3: universally accessible and useful, and so we've long had a
Speaker 3: framework in which we think about these things. And so,
Speaker 3: you know, maybe that's all I have to say there.
Speaker 1: What do you think is the future or potential of
Speaker 1: AI powered hardware and what will Google's role in it be?
Speaker 1: Is the smartphone going to be the form factor. Will
Speaker 1: there be something completely new?
Speaker 3: I think two things I think still today is smartphone
Speaker 3: sort the center of your computing experience, and I think
Speaker 3: with AI you get a chance to rethink that experience
Speaker 3: over the next few years. And so I viewed as
Speaker 3: an exciting opportunity for us to rethink Android, both with
Speaker 3: our partners and with Pixel as well. But I think
Speaker 3: one of the things that excites me about the way
Speaker 3: we are thinking about Gemini, it's natively multimodal. I think
Speaker 3: it can really come to life in a form factoral eyeglasses.
Speaker 3: So I think AI will end up playing a strong
Speaker 3: role in the vision of ar et cetera. So I'm
Speaker 3: excited about that future as well. So I think it
Speaker 3: will apply to both people will build purpose built devices,
Speaker 3: but I think that's still early. Like I still see
Speaker 3: the center of where the AI innovation will happen in smartphones,
Speaker 3: followed by glasses, right, That's how I see it.
Speaker 1: In Nvidia has become the power broker for AI chips. Meantime,
Speaker 1: you are now investing in making your own chips. What
Speaker 1: made you realize you needed to do this? It's a
Speaker 1: huge undertaking.
Speaker 3: Nvidia as an extraordinary company. I think Jensen has been
Speaker 3: driving this investment for a long long time and they're
Speaker 3: seeing the fruits of that long term view. As a
Speaker 3: company in media is an important partner for us. But
Speaker 3: we've always thought about you know, we are very proud
Speaker 3: of our infrastructure. We believe we have the best infrastructure
Speaker 3: in the world, and that applies to AI as well.
Speaker 3: And part of that when we said the company was
Speaker 3: going to be AI first, we realized AI would need
Speaker 3: special purpose built chips, so we built our first TPUs
Speaker 3: in twenty I announced ratat Io in twenty sixteen. We
Speaker 3: are now in our fifth generation, so you will see
Speaker 3: us continue to invest there. We'll embrace both GPUs and
Speaker 3: TPUs and we'll give our customers choice. But these are
Speaker 3: areas where we viewed as foundational investments. We think about
Speaker 3: subse cables, we think about our networking chips, we think
Speaker 3: about our into an AI what we call our AI hypercomputer,
Speaker 3: right our AI data centers. So these are what I
Speaker 3: view as core strengths of what positions as well for
Speaker 3: the decade ahead.
Speaker 1: Google is facing a ton of regulatory pressure in the
Speaker 1: US abroad over your dominance in search, video ads, the
Speaker 1: app store, some other big companies have split themselves up
Speaker 1: to focus on their core. Has Google thought about that?
Speaker 3: If we look at it from a user perspective, people
Speaker 3: are trying to solve problems in their day to day lives,
Speaker 3: and so a lot of our products integrate in a
Speaker 3: way that provides value for our users. So I think
Speaker 3: that is important. Part of what allows us to compete
Speaker 3: in the Google Cloud market is the investment in AI
Speaker 3: we undertook because of search is what allows us to
Speaker 3: take that and compete hard against other larger companies like
Speaker 3: Amazon and Microsoft in cloud.
Speaker 2: So I would argue that the way.
Speaker 3: We are approaching it drives innovation adds choice in the market.
Speaker 2: That's how I think about it.
Speaker 1: Last time we talked to you told me China will
Speaker 1: be at the forefront of AI. How should policy makers
Speaker 1: factor that in to their decisions?
Speaker 3: I continue to hold that view. I think China is
Speaker 3: investing a lot in AI. I think they will be
Speaker 3: at the forefront of this technology as well. I think
Speaker 3: it's important we as a country invest in AI as
Speaker 3: well and are at the forefront. But I think over time,
Speaker 3: from an AI safety standpoint, we need to develop frameworks
Speaker 3: by which we achieve global cooperation.
Speaker 2: To achieve AI safety.
Speaker 3: I know it sounds far fetched now, but we've done
Speaker 3: it in other areas like nuclear technology and so on
Speaker 3: to some extent. I think we're going to need framework
Speaker 3: like that, and so I would expect over time there
Speaker 3: needs to be engagement with China on important issues like
Speaker 3: AI safety.
Speaker 1: The world is voting this year, and misinformation is only
Speaker 1: going to get more complicated in the age of generative AI,
Speaker 1: and it's worse in other languages. What do you worry about?
Speaker 3: Look, I think the integrity of elections, particularly in a
Speaker 3: year like that.
Speaker 2: You're right.
Speaker 3: I think almost one in three people in the world
Speaker 3: are going to go through some kind of democratic electoral process,
Speaker 3: which is extraordinary to see. I think we should celebrate that.
Speaker 3: I think the role for us. You know, we've all
Speaker 3: invested so much in election integrity over the years. We
Speaker 3: have a lot of learnings to bring to bear, and
Speaker 3: so we are investing early and ahead and deeper than
Speaker 3: ever before to get it right. I think AI is
Speaker 3: a new tool, but I think so far I don't
Speaker 3: think we've seen something extraordinarily different because of it. But
Speaker 3: time will tell. But we are doing our utmost prepare
Speaker 3: for what's ahead?
Speaker 1: Have you checked out how Google's doing back at home
Speaker 1: in the Indian elections.
Speaker 3: We take pride in being a source of information for people,
Speaker 3: and I think people come look for information and I
Speaker 3: view this is no different than any other moment in time.
Speaker 2: I'm proud of one of.
Speaker 3: The largest democratic processes anywhere in the world, and it
Speaker 3: always hair raising moment to see people wort and so
Speaker 3: it's great to see.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're on the cusp of becoming a billionaire. What
Speaker 1: are your philanthropic goals? Will we see you bring resources
Speaker 1: back to India?
Speaker 2: Definitely?
Speaker 3: We've done some limited amount, but I've always viewed it
Speaker 3: as there's a phase of my life and I'm not
Speaker 3: doing what I'm doing now, and I do want to
Speaker 3: put a lot more time and energy and passion into
Speaker 3: philanthropically giving back, and it's a privilege to be able
Speaker 3: to do that.
Speaker 1: Are there any particular causes that you are really passionate about?
Speaker 2: Too early to tell.
Speaker 3: I've done a variety of things, but I'm still forming
Speaker 3: where it can be most impactful.
Speaker 1: There's no question that ai I will reshape the labor market.
Speaker 1: Is blue collar going to be the new white collar?
Speaker 3: I think at least the current phase of AI I
Speaker 3: see looks like it will help people, and it's true
Speaker 3: in my use today, and that's how I expect a
Speaker 3: radiologists to use it, to have AI assisting you. So
Speaker 3: I think there is a real scenario in which it
Speaker 3: lowers the barrier take coding, for example, more people will
Speaker 3: be able to code, it will take the grunt work
Speaker 3: out of coding, it'll make people who code more productive,
Speaker 3: it will expand the opportunity set, etc. So that's the
Speaker 3: near term. Longer term, it's tough to predict. Typically in technology,
Speaker 3: when we have predicted, it's kind of played out a
Speaker 3: bit differently, so I still think it's too early to tell.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I think AI in the physical world will
Speaker 3: happen slower than in the virtual world. So maybe there's
Speaker 3: an element where it impacts differently than other technology transformations
Speaker 3: in the past.
Speaker 1: Artificial general intelligence is it mean to you do we
Speaker 1: get there?
Speaker 3: And when it's not a well defined phrase, it means
Speaker 3: different things to different people. I think it meant a
Speaker 3: lot more many years ago in the context when AI
Speaker 3: was more narrow it couldn't do a general set of tasks.
Speaker 3: That's why people would call out agis distinct. We are
Speaker 3: definitely working on AI in a way. It's more generalized
Speaker 3: technology now. But I think if you define AGI as
Speaker 3: AI becoming capable across a wide variety of economic activity
Speaker 3: and being able to do it well, I think that's
Speaker 3: one way to look at it. That's how I think
Speaker 3: about it in my head. I still think we have
Speaker 3: some ways to go, but the technology is progressing pretty rapidly.
Speaker 1: So Google's going to get us to AGI.
Speaker 3: We are committed to making foundational progress towards AGI in
Speaker 3: a bold and responsible way, and so you know I
Speaker 3: we'll focus on the effort to do that and do
Speaker 3: that well.
Speaker 1: The concerns about AI leading to human extinction? Are those
Speaker 1: legitimate or totally overblown?
Speaker 3: I think we are far away from needing to think
Speaker 3: about things like that at this moment. But I definitely
Speaker 3: have a more optimistic view of how this will play out.
Speaker 3: I think the essence of humanity is being able to
Speaker 3: harness technology in a way that benefits society, and more
Speaker 3: than any other technology, I see as having the conversations
Speaker 3: early enough with AI so that gives me faith in
Speaker 3: humanity that we will get it right.
Speaker 1: You've said there's even some things about AI that you
Speaker 1: don't understand well. AI always be somewhat in a black box?
Speaker 1: Will there always be some things that we will just
Speaker 1: never know?
Speaker 3: I have a little bit of a counter into the
Speaker 3: view there. Humans are very mysterious too, right, And humans
Speaker 3: are more of a black box than we give credit for.
Speaker 3: Often when people explain why they did things, telling something,
Speaker 3: it's not entirely clear that's why they did that specific thing.
Speaker 3: AI will also help us today. We can't make sense
Speaker 3: of many complex systems. You know, how does the global
Speaker 3: economy work, et cetera. You know, AI will give us
Speaker 3: more insight and more visibility into many complex things. So
Speaker 3: it will explain the world better. And maybe over time
Speaker 3: you can query the AI and you can get a
Speaker 3: better explainability. I think that should be one of our
Speaker 3: design goals design attributes is to develop explainable AI over time,
Speaker 3: and so I think it's too early to tell.
Speaker 1: When I asked open Ai CEO Sam Altman why we
Speaker 1: should trust him, he said, you shouldn't. Why should we
Speaker 1: trust Google?
Speaker 3: I shared the notion that you should blind lead. You know,
Speaker 3: that's why it's important to have systems in place. Regulation
Speaker 3: is a part to play. It does to balance innovation.
Speaker 3: But I think as THECAI systems get more capable, you know,
Speaker 3: regulation will have an important role to play, and it
Speaker 3: shouldn't just be based on a system of trust people
Speaker 3: or trust companies. I think that's that's not how you
Speaker 3: deploy very powerful technology. But at this early stage of technology,
Speaker 3: you have to balance that with a view to allow.
Speaker 2: Innovation to flourish.
Speaker 3: We have to remember that the positive upside here is
Speaker 3: tremendous as well in the areas like healthcare and many
Speaker 3: other areas. So I think we have to take that
Speaker 3: view too. But over time, I think you have to
Speaker 3: build frameworks to make sure this technology is deployed responsibly.
Speaker 1: We've talked a lot about the opportunities. What is the
Speaker 1: biggest threat to Google's future?
Speaker 3: I view for all companies, particularly at scale, you know,
Speaker 3: biggest threat is not executing well. I think as long
Speaker 3: as we stay focused on our mission and approach it
Speaker 3: by building foundational technology and using it to build products,
Speaker 3: innovate with it, and do that with a sense of
Speaker 3: urgency and focus on users, I think will do well.
Speaker 3: But that's what will define our success more than anything else.
Speaker 1: You spend so much time thinking about what Google's future
Speaker 1: will be should look like, what's the killer bet that
Speaker 1: could secure Google for the next twenty five years? Is
Speaker 1: it AI or is it quantum computing?
Speaker 3: I would say AI is I've always viewed AI as
Speaker 3: that transformational opportunity for the company. I felt that for
Speaker 3: almost a decade, and you know, I continue to feel
Speaker 3: that about the next decade ahead.
Speaker 1: Are we going to look back on this lm era
Speaker 1: and laugh? Is this going to all look so basic
Speaker 1: and rudimentary?
Speaker 2: I hope we do.
Speaker 3: My kids aren't impressed by touchscreens or the fact that
Speaker 3: they have this extraordinary amount of computing in their hands.
Speaker 3: So today, for example, people tell about like, look at
Speaker 3: how much computing we are using. To me, doesn't feel
Speaker 3: like a large amount. It's just large relative to what
Speaker 3: it was before. So similarly, there's no reason we won't
Speaker 3: scale up our computing one hundred thousand times in a
Speaker 3: few years.
Speaker 2: So yes, I.
Speaker 3: Hope some of this looks like a toy in the future,
Speaker 3: because that will mean that we've applied it to achieve
Speaker 3: breakthroughs in cancer, etc. Right, So I hope it is
Speaker 3: that way. Otherwise we didn't do our job.
Speaker 1: Well, you just did a big reorc is that with
Speaker 1: succession in mind.
Speaker 3: When you run a company at the scale reorganizations which
Speaker 3: focused clearly towards meeting the moment with AI making sure
Speaker 3: we are simplifying the company and able to execute well.
Speaker 3: So that's what, at least the set of reorganizations we're
Speaker 3: focused on.
Speaker 1: How long do you see yourself continuing to do this?
Speaker 3: I don't think about that on a day to day basis,
Speaker 3: but you know, as a board, etc. We've always had
Speaker 3: responsible conversations around this topic, and I think it's important
Speaker 3: to do that. But I'm committed and I'm excited about
Speaker 3: the journey ahead.
Speaker 1: So what motivates you to keep going? It's a hard job,
Speaker 1: and this is like a huge job, tons of energy.
Speaker 3: I still get delighted and surprised by how technology makes
Speaker 3: progress and playing a part in that is where I
Speaker 3: get a lot of my energy from. And so I
Speaker 3: view this as to me, if anything, this moment is
Speaker 3: more it's something I've thought about for a long time
Speaker 3: and almost it's part of a journey I've been working
Speaker 3: on for a long time, and so this is the moment,
Speaker 3: and so it's more exciting than most of the moments.
Speaker 1: Is there a healthy dose of paranoia, like not becoming
Speaker 1: stand the t Rex out there, yeah, I think, and
Speaker 1: going extinct.
Speaker 3: I think that you know, there's a part of me
Speaker 3: which is always internalizedating the old Andy Grove face. Only
Speaker 3: the paranoid survive, but to a healthy level. I don't
Speaker 3: obsess about it. But I never take our successful granted,
Speaker 3: you know. I constantly feel you have to re earn it,
Speaker 3: and you have to do it with a sense of
Speaker 3: hunger and urgency and being mission focused and being user focused.
Speaker 3: So all that is important, and I think this moment
Speaker 3: is no different.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Circuit.
Speaker 1: You can watch our full episode with Google CEOs and
Speaker 1: Darpachai on Bloomberg Originals. I'm Emily Chang. Follow me on
Speaker 1: Twitter and Instagram at Emily Chang tv, and watch new
Speaker 1: episodes of the Circuit on Bloomberg Television or streaming on
Speaker 1: the Bloomberg app or YouTube. And check out our other
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Speaker 1: producers are Lauren Allis and Alan Jeffries. Our editor is
Speaker 1: Alison Casey. Catch you next time,