WEBVTT - Operation Ghost Stories 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:04.680 From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:09.080 riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:12.119 learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:13.880 production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:28.440 Hello, and welcome back to the show. My name is Noel. 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:33.280 Our colleague Matt is on adventures and will be returning soon. 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:36.720 They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:40.880 super producer Dylan the Tennessee pal Facan. Most importantly, you 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:45.640 are here. That makes this the stuff they don't want 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:48.839 you to know. Noel, you and Dylan and I were 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:52.200 talking a little bit off air before we started rolling 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:57.160 about a seminal spy show called The Americans, and I 0:00:57.200 --> 0:00:59.280 think you said you've been meaning to watch it. 0:00:59.280 --> 0:00:59.840 It's on my list. 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:02.360 There's been such a glut of really great spy shows 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:06.000 and movies as of late, and it brought that one 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:07.520 back up for me. But like you know, I just 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:10.279 saw a black bag in the theater. It's is very 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:14.160 Tinker Taylor Soldier spy kind of vibe. And The Americans, 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:17.959 I believe it's an FX series from gosh, it's probably 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:19.080 ten years. 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:21.119 I always have spoken on very very highly. 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:25.920 Yeah, yeah, I was surprised by how much I enjoyed 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:28.880 The Americans, and I've got to check out Black Bag 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:31.560 that's on my list as well. But you're you're absolutely 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:36.399 correct there has been this uptick in espionage story spy 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:40.600 thrillers because they're great, you know, they're they're candy for 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:44.240 the mind. Even now as we realize a lot of 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:46.920 spy stuff that you read in fiction or you see 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:52.520 in film, it's entertaining, but it's not real mostly well, and. 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:55.320 I think we positive, maybe even on our recent episode 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:59.600 on why so many spies are getting caught, that may 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:03.320 will be a crossover between the zeitgeist of the spy 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:06.320 thriller and all of this kind of you know, spies 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:09.160 in the news of late Yeah. 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:13.400 I think you're absolutely onto something there, because maybe the 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:17.919 real world events are informing what we see in fiction. 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:21.760 And as a result, we got together, you and Matt 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:25.400 and I were talking about providing at least one example 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:29.799 of a genuine blockbuster spy conspiracy, the type of thing 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:33.160 that should ordinarily only exist in the world of fiction. 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:37.440 But we're going to dive into the true events that 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:41.720 inspired the hit TV show The Americans. This is the 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:44.160 tale of Operation Ghost Stories. 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:46.960 What a cool name right, so, but spooky, let's take 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:49.040 a quick worry from our sponsor and will jump right in. 0:02:55.960 --> 0:03:00.240 Here are the facts. Would you ever be a sleeper agent? 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:02.600 I would be a sleepy agent? 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:05.799 Me too, man, he too especially great? 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:07.600 Yeah, I think so. 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:10.239 It seems like a lot of trouble, a lot of effort, 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:14.880 you know, for potentially just getting killed and then disavowed exactly. 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:18.880 Yeah, it's a high risk and we don't know whether 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:22.400 there are high rewards. To understand the depth of this 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:25.400 bizarre story, we have to talk about what it means 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:30.280 to actually be a sleeper agent. James Bond is not 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:31.440 this kind of person. 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:34.120 James Bond was in it for the babes man like 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:38.000 almost entirely. He wasn't even a very good spot like 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:39.640 in the movies anyway, right. 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:42.160 Yeah, he was terrible. He was going around. First off, 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:45.320 he was dat he was drinking constantly, if you've ever 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:49.040 seen the studies of how often he drinks in film. 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:53.160 And then he was telling everybody his real name all 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:54.000 the time. 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:55.800 And maybe he thought maybe he could confuse the movie 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:58.720 said the last name first, and then the Bond James Bond. 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:00.600 Wait a minute, who is this person? 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:07.600 To your point, He was also very sloppy in his 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:11.600 personal behavior, hitting on anything with a pulse, which. 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:15.560 Guy had mad STDs, just saying he was spreading them around. 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:19.800 Yeah, it's really hopefully was using protection, but that's a 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:21.200 great point he hit. 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:24.320 Protection for him would be his sweet little nine millimeters. 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:30.760 Yeah, and this we're bringing up this, you know, most 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:35.040 famous of fictional spies, because we want to contrast it 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:39.560 with actual sleeper agents. These folks put so much effort 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:46.400 into appearing really boring, like super if Beije was a person. 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:48.280 They want to be a beige. 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:49.120 All right, for sure. 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:52.280 It's the whole ability to blend in and really quickly 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:55.080 lest some James bond heads in the crowd yell at me. 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:57.080 James didn't use a nine millimeter. 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:00.599 He used a Walter PP that really cool little compact 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:04.640 gun that he was always posing, you know he was using. 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:10.039 Yeah, out of all his gadgets, he loved that little gun. 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:11.800 Really. Yeah. 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:16.440 These these sleeper agents, they infiltrate communities and workplaces. They 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:19.760 go about a day to day list of routines and 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:23.800 activities just the same way anybody else would. And because 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:28.200 they're here's the thing, they're usually not doing any spy 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:30.280 stuff for years or decades. 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:35.320 Yeah, that's right. They are playing the long game very slowly. 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:39.120 As we mentioned in our recent Spy episode or Spies 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:43.239 Getting Caught episode. They move their way through the ranks 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:47.719 of society, whether it be socially or you know, flitting 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:52.320 around between different government or industrial circles and just trying 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:55.160 to you know, win friends and influence people. 0:05:56.680 --> 0:06:00.760 Yeah, and then years or decades down the road, once 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:06.080 they've established all these relationships and associations and connections, they 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:10.000 might get a signal and should the need arise, they 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:12.839 can be activated by their handler. 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:13.239 Yeah. 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:18.159 And this isn't Mansheurian candidate type activation though, who knows, 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:20.480 maybe that is a thing. But this is literally some 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:23.479 sort of covert message that has transmitted to this individual 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:27.080 that causes them to leap into the endgame portion of 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:30.800 their plan, whether it be acquiring some sort of device 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:33.400 you know, photographs, compromant, whatever. 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:40.440 Right, Yeah, it could be as simple as actively surveilling 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:44.479 a target, or like you said, getting maybe the new 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:49.000 plans for a jet or some other needo gadget. May 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:53.159 nuclear technology for sure, Yeah, that's a great example. Or 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:57.359 internal records from a government agency at the more extreme 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:00.640 end of the spectrum. They might be assigned to terminate 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:04.040 an individual, or to even commit acts of terrorism. 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:06.960 Yeah, terrorism, they wouldn't. 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:09.840 Call it that though, with no no, I don't know 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:13.680 what they would call it. Any number of euphemisms, right, 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:18.600 So exactly everything escalates at that point. Now, in the 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:22.520 ideal situation for these folks, you want the agent to 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:26.040 be able to maintain their cover after whatever task they're 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:31.160 activated for. But sometimes you are past a point of 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:34.800 no return, so the act you commit may burn your identity, 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:37.200 and that means you either get caught, like we're saying 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:41.160 at the top, or you have to be rescued exfiltrated 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:45.200 back to your home organization. It sounds so insane, but 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:48.800 it's important to note this really can happen. And one 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:52.200 knock on consequence of this is it leads to an 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:55.120 enormous amount of paranoia for the people in power. 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:56.160 Well as it should. 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:59.320 I mean, they know what they're up to, you know. 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:03.120 I only imagine that the enemy, or at least the 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:05.760 folks on the other side, are up to the same thing, 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.240 and god forbid, they're better at it than us. 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:13.440 Right right, And this I like that point because maybe 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:16.520 it's a fear of inadequacy. On some level, there's a lot. 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:19.120 Of insecurity and an international intelligence. 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:22.160 Yeah, there's a lot of For all that bravado and swagger, 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:24.400 they're all just you know, like worrying that the other 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:26.160 guys have better toys than they do. 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:26.880 Yeah. 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:29.720 Yeah, there's a lot of insecurity in the world of 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:35.200 security and true on many levels. Actually, yes, yeah, I 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:38.480 agree with you. This is this leads us to some 0:08:38.720 --> 0:08:43.040 historical precedence. When the paranoia goes too far, you end 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:48.160 up with mass hysteria outbreaks like the infamous Red scares. 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:51.240 This is where the authority is carry Yeah, they go 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:55.080 completely overboard. Anybody can be a spy, just like during 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:57.480 the Inquisition. Anyone could be a witch. 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:01.280 Totally. Yeah, And once anyone can your enemy, everyone is 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:03.839 your enemy. You're right, You see or at least you 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:04.640 see your. 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:08.440 Enemy in everything or in everyone, And it can really 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:11.800 lead to some serious spiraling when you can start mixing 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:17.360 in propaganda, misinformation and just hatred and othering. It really 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:22.199 can be a pretty nasty situation pretty quickly, oh yeah, 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:26.840 very quickly. The US has had more than one Red Scare. 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:31.440 Red Scare is an era marked by a groundswell of 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:35.440 public fear and anxiety, in this case over the supposed 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:40.840 rise of communist or socialist forces. I'm picturing like an 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:45.320 eighties you know, Schwarzenegger action movie or something around, like, 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:48.800 you know, fighting the Russians or something, and somebody using 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:51.000 the catchphrase you just got red scared. 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:54.959 I love it. Let's yeah, let's put that on the books. Actually, 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:55.920 let's make that a thing. 0:09:56.040 --> 0:09:56.360 Why not? 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:59.640 To your point, Ben, that's right, the multiple red scares 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:02.280 of very I guess there were different shades of red 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:05.040 and its Britannican notes the first one of these red 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:08.439 scares of varying shades, I guess the first occurred from 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:12.200 nineteen seventeen to nineteen twenty, and this is amid an 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:17.960 increase in the organizing of labor forces, labor unions, immigration, urbanization, 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:23.280 and industrialization. The second period Britannican notes, also called McCarthyism. 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:25.520 You know about that one. That one was real red 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:26.760 scary after. 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:31.120 US Senator Joseph McCarthy, took place from roughly nineteen forty 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:33.640 seven to nineteen fifty four. And that's the classic example 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:36.559 of where we were seeing our enemies in even among 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:37.120 our friends. 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:40.480 Oh yeah, this is bonkers. So in each of these 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:45.840 cases they just mentioned, we see a clear pattern of overreach. 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:49.840 During the first Red Scare, the Attorney General at the time, 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:54.439 a guy named a Mitchell Palmer, led a brutal series 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:59.840 of raids that were probably unconstitutional against individuals who were 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:04.360 usually going to be foreign born immigrants and for one 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:08.120 reason or another they were suspected of being anarchist or 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:11.000 communist or a radical leftist. 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:14.199 Sorry, dude, the headshake used to do. Just in the clock. 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:16.920 I mean, we're kind of living through another one of 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:21.640 these eras right now. Second, just you know, different flavor, 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:24.600 I guess of enemy. But yeah, we are seeing some 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:29.720 serious overreach from this administration of targeting individuals for just 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:32.920 something as simple as maybe having a different opinion, you know, 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:36.360 some someone is outspoken against the administration, and then using 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:39.760 some of these dog whistle kind of tactics of like, 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:43.240 you know, illegal immigrants who are violent criminals to just 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:44.640 get rid of someone that you don't like. 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:50.640 Right, and it will eventually, at least historical precedent shows 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:55.760 us that kind of overreach will eventually start touching US citizens. 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.400 As well, touching you touching people. 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.960 So sweet, Caroline about it toughly. 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:04.480 And not to be alarmist or anything. 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:07.640 I'm certainly not trying not to loose sleep over this 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:09.440 kind of stuff, but it's really hard to not see 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:11.600 the parallels when you look at these kinds of stories, 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:18.320 to not see the parah I did not see that coming, jokesters. 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:23.559 So it is likely in the Red Scares that some 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:29.560 of these folks were genuine assets, or they genuinely did 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:33.880 want to commit crimes, right, they were a danger to 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:38.200 national security. But even if that's likely, it is certain 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:41.920 that many more of the individuals targeted were just random, 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:45.240 innocent folks. They happened to be from the wrong country, right, 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:48.520 they went to the wrong meetings, or they knew the 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:51.240 wrong people, even if it was just like their neighbor. 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:51.760 Right. 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:54.880 During the second Red Scare, which is just after the 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:57.560 Second World War, at the beginning of the Cold One, 0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:01.079 the Cold War, America is terrified the Soviet Union might 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:04.040 turn the entire world communists. That was kind of that, 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:05.920 I hope I'm using this term correct. The fade to 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:09.840 complete kind of of the whole situation. It was the lynchpin, 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:13.560 you know, Communism was the ultimate fear, and it was 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:16.400 used in a way to maybe accomplish some other things, 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:19.520 and to get rid of some inconvenient individuals by classifying 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:22.960 them potentially as communists. That's what McCarthy was all about 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:26.640 with his blacklisting Hollywood writers and trying to get rid 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:29.360 of people who might speak ill of him and his party. 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:34.760 Yeah, it was very much a thing where just like 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:36.800 the days of the Inquisition, That's why we call it 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:40.440 a witch hunt, people had already taken it as a 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:45.440 given that the halls of power were riddled with reds. 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:51.920 And Joseph McCarthy, who was if whether or not he 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:56.439 genuinely believed his claims, he was definitely an opportunist leveraging 0:13:56.800 --> 0:14:01.800 that public fear and anxiety. So our buddy Heavy Joe 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:06.800 starts claiming that their communist sleeper agents everywhere in the government. 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:09.160 He went nuts. He said, I have a list of 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:12.400 known Soviet assets in the Department of State, and we 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:15.560 have to investigate the CIA and a baker's dozen of 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:20.360 other agencies. This got him crazy headlines. He got a 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:23.520 lot of attention for it, and that probably pushed him 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:27.680 to make increasingly extravagant claims, Like if you heard him 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:31.120 tell it, it sounds like every third or fourth government 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:36.680 employee is just a deep cover spy waiting for the 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:39.280 signal to blow up the White House or something. 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:41.400 Yeah, and we got to root him out, Ben, We 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:44.000 got to root him out out and expose them for 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:48.760 their treasonous actions. And we know looking back on all 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:52.160 of this that this was massive overreach. That sure, there 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:55.320 might have been some bad actors embedded. There might have 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:58.840 been a few Communists trying to spoil the Buncher, ruin 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:03.120 him in the America Party, but it wasn't like he described, 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:06.360 and it was used in such a way, as weaponized, 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:08.760 as darisay, in such a way where a lot of 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:11.480 innocent people got had their lives ruined. 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:12.440 Yeah. 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:18.400 Yeah, because you can't really, you can't really recover from 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:22.320 these kinds of accusations, even if they're disproven, Right, it's 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:26.920 still a blemish on your career. So tons of innocent 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:29.800 people like you said no, they lost their jobs. There 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:36.400 were very few actual convictions and peak behind the curtain, Yeah, right, 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:39.640 who saw that come in? For a long time, we 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:42.560 have been we'll spoil it too much, But we've been 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:46.720 speculating with some of our colleagues on doing an episode 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:52.080 entirely focused on the House on American Activities Committee or you. 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:53.680 Know, we should do we should get the huak to 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:56.000 a girl to come talk to us about. 0:15:57.240 --> 0:15:59.320 I'm sorry, I had to do it. I had to 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:01.240 do it. Do you think we can leeve God can 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:02.600 judge me. I don't know we can do. I think 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:03.640 she might be available. 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:07.880 I think you know what though, I actually heard that 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:11.440 she got cast as herself in a movie. 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:13.840 Well that's great, man, Yeah it was. 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:15.920 It was a big Hollywood job too, So you know, 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:18.160 I hope she's okay. That whole meme coin thing really 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:21.920 threw her career into a tizzy. She was doing so well, 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:24.760 just coasting on that hawk Tua good will, and then. 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:26.680 Had to get into crypto, never get into crypto. 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:30.800 Yeah, I feel like she was misled, oh no question. 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:33.280 But she allowed herself to be the face of this 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:37.960 thing that was a genuine, you know, helping dump pump 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:40.760 what do they call it a rug pull? Yes, pump 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:43.480 and dump scam and then just sort of vanished. So 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:45.480 it just I don't know, it was just it just 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:47.640 wasn't great. But anyway, we will, we will welcome you 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:50.200 with open arms. Who Walktua girl, come talk to us 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:52.880 about the house un American Activities Committee, and maybe another 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:54.920 one of our colleagues will come to Yeah. 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:58.720 Yeah, And today, with the benefit of retrospect, we can 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:03.560 look back and take the red scares for the valuable 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:07.080 lesson that they are. They're moral panics, They're cases of 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:11.960 mass hysteria. This shows us the danger of sliding into paranoia. 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:14.840 And when you let I kind of stop quoting Incubus, 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:17.639 when you let fear take the wheel and steer, it 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:20.560 can lead quickly to the erosion of the rule of law. 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:22.280 You know what I say, Ben, And I say, let 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:25.160 Jesus take the wheel. Yeah, that's what I say. 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:27.480 The world's best uber driver. 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:29.200 He really is. He's so kind, good guy. 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:29.920 Ben. 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:33.520 I got a question, though, what a moral panic is 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:36.600 a not a term of abuse, but it is a 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:40.240 term used maybe after the fact or in retrospect. You 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:43.800 wouldn't call something when you're in it or you're participating 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:46.560 in it, a moral panic, would you, because that implies 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:50.200 that you're overreacting, doesn't right. 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:55.600 Yeah, it's often so people in say the nineties, with 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:58.880 the Satanic panic stuff, they would they wouldn't even call 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:03.480 satanic a moral paniciing. 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:04.600 Know exactly what we're doing we're doing the right thing. 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:07.440 We're getting rid of these demonic, satanic devil. 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:07.960 Worshipers, right. 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:11.439 Yeah. It's kind of like how no group wants to 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:14.720 be called a cult other than that banned the cult. 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:18.840 Do you think that history will show or will refer 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:22.040 to some of what we're living through in this era 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:23.919 politically as a moral panic? 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:24.840 Absolutely? 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:27.280 Yeah. I just want to you know, again, I'm not 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:30.119 here to criticize anybody's political believes whatever. You know, do 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:32.120 you but I just. 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:35.879 I think there are some certain uh historical aspects of 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:37.720 what's going on right now that are not going to 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:38.800 be looked on favorable. 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:44.399 And also, you know, regardless of which administration is in power, 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:50.679 factions of politicians will always engage in moral panics because 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:52.080 they're great to re election. 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:53.320 Yeah. 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:56.760 It's a way of working people up into a froth, 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:00.720 you know, and getting them to kind of a line 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:04.520 behind a common enemy. And what better enemy than an 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:07.720 amorphous concept that can't exist anywhere? 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:08.160 Right? 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:11.720 Yeah, we love those in the US. As a matter 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:14.040 of fact, the only one we had that wasn't super 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:18.560 popular was the War on poverty. That one got sidelined, Yeah, 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:21.040 war on drugs, war on terror, all the other. 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:24.720 Ones war, they give you power to do other stuff 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:28.200 and accomplish other like kind of off the book's aims 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:31.400 and the idea of the war. A war on anything 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:33.600 just means that we're always at war. 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:38.760 Yes, yeah, very Orwellian. And so the Red Scare teaches us, 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:42.720 or the Red scares teach us these lessons. But unfortunately, 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:46.320 then as now, these are lessons the US seems to 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.600 continually forget, and that is something that we all need 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:51.520 to think about in the coming years. 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:54.480 Do you think they're forgetting it or do you think 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:59.000 they just think they're smarter than the people of the past. 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:03.400 Properly at the top the ladder, but for the public, 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:06.800 I think we all forget how easily people can be pushed. 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:09.000 That's a good point, you know, that's a good point. 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:12.840 And it's easy to forget the historical precedence, especially when 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:16.080 you have someone speaking with such authority and such confidence, 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:19.480 who you maybe personally have some skin in the game with, 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:23.600 and you've tied part of your personality to this person 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:26.760 being correct or this person representing the moral authority. 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:29.119 Do you know what we should do? No, what do 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:33.160 you think? Let's play just a brief clip of Joe McCarthy, 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:34.720 so we can get the vibe as. 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:39.200 One communist on the faculty of one universality is one 0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:49.240 communist who many One communist am the American advisors at 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:59.480 y'all top was one Communist too many. And even if 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:03.040 they were all one Communist in the state department, even 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:05.400 if there are only one Communist in the state department, 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:07.119 that will still be one Communist. 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:09.680 I'd be behind this guy. He sounds like he knows 0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:10.560 what he's talking about. 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:15.760 As you said, little authoritative confident, there's a ticking time, Bob, 0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:16.960 you know, high stakes. 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:18.840 Yeah, And I think this is an interesting point that the 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:21.760 idea of a moral panic only being seen as such 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:24.840 in retrospect, mass hysteria, et cetera. 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:31.760 But paranoia and prejudice aside. There are absolutely genuine conspiracies 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:35.720 and sleeper agents at play, no question about it. And 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:38.080 I think we've already alluded to that throughout. 0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:42.119 Yeah, we'll pause for a word from our sponsors, and 0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:54.719 then we're diving into Operation Ghost Stories. Here's where it 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:59.400 gets crazy. All right. It's the year two thousand. Everything 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:01.959 is different. You can just go and hang out at 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:03.680 the airport, you know what I mean. 0:22:03.960 --> 0:22:06.640 Man, that was so cool, you could smoke on the airplane. 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:08.560 I think we're I think we're cool with that. 0:22:08.680 --> 0:22:09.120 Isn't it weird? 0:22:09.119 --> 0:22:11.439 Though there were still they're using airplanes that still have 0:22:11.520 --> 0:22:14.399 little flippy ashtrays like on the seats. I'm only just 0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:16.600 now starting to see those go away. Have you noticed 0:22:16.600 --> 0:22:21.439 that a starting to finally, Yeah, but as recently as 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:23.320 a few years ago, that was definitely still a thing. 0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:28.840 I always feel a little bit I wouldn't say diseased, 0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:32.520 but I feel I always clock it when I see 0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:35.560 an airplane that's old enough to still have those ash trays. Yep, 0:22:35.800 --> 0:22:39.399 And I just keep thinking, what else. I hope they 0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:41.119 have a maintenance program exactly. 0:22:41.320 --> 0:22:43.800 No, that's okay. I hadn't thought about it in a while. 0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:47.040 But I'm realizing now that I'm not seeing those as 0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:47.800 much anymore. 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:50.320 So I think they finally passed a point where they 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:51.600 have Okay, guys, we got to get rid of the 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:53.680 ash trays. But it was a golden time. 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:59.679