WEBVTT - Lolita (1962) 0:00:00.800 --> 0:00:03.640 On the beck Doll Cast, the questions asked if movies 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:07.320 have women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:11.520 and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef 0:00:11.680 --> 0:00:16.800 invest start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Hi, everybody, 0:00:16.960 --> 0:00:20.760 welcome to the Beck del Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus, 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:24.560 my name is Caitlin Darante, and today we are unlocking 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:29.960 an episode from our patreon a k A Matreon feed. 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:35.000 Ever heard of it? And if you haven't, it's time 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:39.360 to get wise or not. We won't know. Uh. And 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:41.680 and maybe you're like, oh cool, they unlocked one now 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:43.720 I don't need to pay for it again. We won't know, 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:47.680 but you know, don't do that. But don't do that. Also, 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:52.320 there's still like dozens and dozens and dozens of episodes 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:55.480 that will never unlock. There's like almost a hundred at 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:57.880 this point. This show has been on for six hundred 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:01.880 years at this point. It's true, we're unlocking the Lolita 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:06.240 episode from our patreon ak matreon today, which we will 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:09.760 get to in a second. But if you're interested in 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:13.160 more episodes that are just Caitlin and myself kind of 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:16.680 having a loose fun, this is not actually not a 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:21.399 good example of that. But but having normally though having 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:24.679 like a one on one discussion about a movie, you 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:28.199 can get two episodes on top of the regular feed 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:31.440 there every month for simply five bucks a month, that's all. 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:34.880 And there's like there's like seventy or eighty episodes in there. 0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:38.039 If you've run out of main feed episodes, yeah, there's 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:39.920 a lot. We should probably the like we should, I 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:42.000 guess we should say what the Bechtel Cast is because 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:45.120 we are in the main feed. Yes, so if this 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:50.000 is your first episode tuning into Lolita, we should go 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:55.800 off and next we'll tell you what the show is. Yes, 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:59.600 So the Bechtel Cast is our podcast in which we 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:04.880 discuss films through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:09.160 test merely as inspiration for a jumping off point to 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:14.040 initiate larger, more in depth conversations. And Jamie, what on 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:17.840 earth is the Bechtel test? Well, the Bechtel test is 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:22.840 a media metric invented by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:26.920 called the Bechtel Wallace test, that requires that, for our purposes, 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:31.600 multiple interpretations of this damn thing. Uh, but for our 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:35.800 purposes requires that there be two characters with names of 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:40.120 a marginalized gender talking to each other about something other 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:44.840 than a man for simply two lines of dialogue. It 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:48.559 doesn't happen in movies quite a bit, not enough. And furthermore, 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:52.400 if it does happen, it doesn't even mean that the 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:55.240 movie is good to women. Sometimes it just happens by 0:02:55.440 --> 0:03:00.079 mistake accident. But it's it's aren't jumping off point for 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:04.640 for a larger discussion, and uh, today we are talking 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:08.200 about Lolita because well, first of all, I guess we 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:11.720 should say this. This episode was recorded about three months ago, 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:15.959 was recorded like towards the beginning of August. I think, yes, 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:20.680 it was one of your birthday month picks on the Matrion. 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:23.840 And normally you would choose your favorite movies for your 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:26.400 birthday month and the Matreon, but that is not the 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:31.840 case here. The reason the reason we covered Lolita is 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:36.000 because throughout the summer and into the fall and now 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:39.600 it's winter and just time keuthes continuing and things just 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:43.600 don't get any better. But we've I've been working on 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:46.280 a show that comes out. If you're listening to this 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:48.920 on the day of release, starting November twenty three and 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:54.400 working on a podcast that tracks the history of the 0:03:54.520 --> 0:04:00.800 story of Lolita. So I say this story because the 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:08.200 adaptations are just out of control, bad and just misrepresenting 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:12.880 what the story is really about. I feel what You 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:15.680 can listen to the show for for for nine hours 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:19.680 of expansion on that. But uh, basically, yeah, this is 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:25.479 the first attempt to adapt Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov to 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:31.640 a um to a larger medium, and there's just it's 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:37.280 so okay. First of all, plug Lolita podcast comes out 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:41.200 on November twenty three, and then it's released every Monday. Uh, 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:44.520 there's gonna be ten episodes. We're we're gonna be talking 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:47.919 with I keep saying it's so, I keep saying we 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:51.560 because I'm so used to like not being alone. Yeah, 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:54.200 I'm not involved in this. It is just me. It's 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:57.440 just it's I say we. And then I'm also just 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:02.239 like me and just all of uh my my friends 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:06.240 that live inside of my brain. But uh, yeah, no, 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:09.800 I'm I'm talking to a lot of people about just 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:13.760 kind of like tracking this story and analyzing the book. 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:17.599 And then I talked to several psychologists who have worked 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:22.839 with victims of child abuse, Um, I talk with people 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:25.279 who are involved in some of these adaptations. I talked 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:28.320 to people who really like the book, people who really 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:32.200 don't like the book. But as far as the movies go, 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:37.520 it's a pretty uncontroversial opinion to feel that they all 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:45.280 aggressively suck and push just really harmful messages that are 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:49.400 very of the time and also by of the time. 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:52.760 I mean still now this is like still, like you 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:57.240 know are our calls were Still has a gigantic issue 0:05:57.520 --> 0:06:02.000 with sexualizing young girls specifically, but also just young people 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:05.159 in general. So that's what the show is about. It's 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:10.159 it's a little heavier than the Bechdel cast, but um, 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:13.440 if that's something you're interested in, I try to really 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:17.040 examine it from all perspectives and bring in a lot 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:21.920 of different voices to discuss it, and I hope you'll listen. 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:25.720 Uh So that yeah Monday is starting November twenty three. 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:28.840 And Oh the reason I was saying all of that 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:33.560 is first of all, because I should. Second of all, 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:38.280 because I think that a lot of my thoughts on 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:42.960 this movie have like not changed entirely. I still think 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:48.880 the movie absolutely sucks eggs, but but for like way 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:53.800 more specific reasons than I did four months ago. So yeah, 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:56.960 I I don't necessarily stand by to the word everything 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:00.960 I say in this episode, but uh, the movie is bad. 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:07.440 Well that's that's the beauty of just being alive and 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:11.560 being a person. Here you can learn more things and 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:16.440 your mind can change and oh you growth. You love 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:18.680 to see it. And that's what the Bechtel Cast is 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:24.400 all about. Growing, changing, acknowledging faults from the past, and 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:31.960 moving forward in a healthy and productive way. Who um, 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:34.360 so yes, I was just really listening back to the 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:38.320 episode and we you know, there's mentions to I Frankenstein. 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:42.640 Why because it's the other the other episode we did 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:46.080 on the Matren for your birthday month, so there will 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:49.960 be references to Jamie's birthday and I Frankenstein and whatnot. 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:53.520 So if you're just like, what, that's why my birthday 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:57.920 was in August. And I honestly think and this is 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:01.080 like not even I know that there's no way for 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:03.080 me to say this in a non biased way, but 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:06.840 the I Frankenstein episode alone is enough reason to sign 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:10.520 up for the Matreon, in my opinion, one of our best. 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:15.280 It's not Jamie. This is not opinion, this is fact. 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:21.640 Very viable. Um so yes, if you, if you, I 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:24.920 mean just what this is all to say, folks, that 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:28.080 you should get on get on the Matreon train, you know, 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:32.880 for I Frankenstein alone, among many other films that again 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:36.720 will remain locked. We're not gonna just keep unlocking episodes 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:39.600 all willy nilly. Some of them are in the vault. 0:08:39.800 --> 0:08:44.120 This is a rare occurrence. Yeah, so yeah, enjoy our 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:49.160 Lolita episode to the extent that you're able. Lolita podcast 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:54.040 I recommend, and again I'm completely unbiased. It's just, you know, 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:57.880 just a recommendation, and I haven't been sweating about this 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:00.600 for half of the year. Well it's someone who is 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:04.880 again not involved in Little to podcast. I also recommend. 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:11.200 Hell yeah, without further ado, here is our unlocked Matreon 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:17.079 episode about Stanley Kubrick's Lolita. Hate that run of words. 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:27.720 Enjoy del cast high Matre. Jamie, it's your birthday. It's 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:32.520 Jamie's Chaos month on the Matreon, and boy do we 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:37.000 have a chaotic month for you this year. We just 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:40.000 made a last minute adjustment to my birthday month in 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:43.400 a way that I really think makes the whole feed vibrate. 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:50.480 It's it's so today obviously we're We're doing Lolita, a 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:53.160 very heavy, serious movie with a lot of heavy serious 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:57.280 things to discuss, and then at the end of the month, 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:01.440 as a palate cleanser, we're going to be doing I Frankenstein, 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:04.920 which is a movie that you don't even need to 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:07.600 watch because it's more fun for us to tell you 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:11.960 about it than to watch it. You should still watch 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:17.760 it because Bill and I he and I also feel like, genuinely, 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:20.520 if it came down to it, Aaron Eckhart would pay 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:25.400 you human dollars to not watch it, which is a 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:31.280 reason to watch it. It's a gritty Frankenstein movie. But 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:34.720 here's a twist. It's about do you remember I know, 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:39.080 I know this movie so well. I Frankenstein markets itself 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:44.559 as a movie about I callma Frankenstein, but it's actually 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:51.240 about the war of demons versus gargoyles. I vaguely remember that. 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:55.960 But all the gargoyles, the gargoyles are the heroes, which 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:59.640 I also like kept being like, wait, gargoyles are heroes. 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:02.600 They are in this movie, and if you've seen the 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:06.680 animated series Gargoyles, you know that they are. I saw that. 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:10.319 Everyone roasts me for not, I just didn't see it. 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:12.240 I was watching Powerpuff Girls. I don't know what I 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:15.960 was doing. But for me, I was like, wait, I 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:19.000 thought gargoyles were supposed to be mean to you, but 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:21.000 the been in this one. They're the heroes and they 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:24.760 are all royalty and they're dressed like they went to 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:30.160 ye party. So by party, I Frankenstein, I exactly, it's 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:36.360 all connected. Um. So we're gonna start with heavy episode 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:38.079 and we're gonna end with a light episode, and that's 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:42.040 going to be my birthday month because I contain multitudes. 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:48.440 But today we are talking about the nineteen sixty two 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:56.520 adaptation of Lolita by feminist icon Stanley Kubrick. We should 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:59.280 just at the very top here, since we're attempting to 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:04.400 be better at given content warnings for the content of episodes. 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:11.320 There's obviously a content warning here for statutory rape, child 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:17.520 sexual abuse. Yeah. There there's I mean, general predatory behavior 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:22.280 and also murder. Um so there there is just the 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:25.720 general brutalization of women and children is going to come 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:28.560 up in this episode. Um. And I guess if you 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:34.200 weren't familiar with the content of Lolita, that it's that's about. 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:38.360 So if you'd rather skip this one. We totally understand 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:41.880 if you'd like to hang around. There's so much to 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:48.520 talk about that I think is very revealing about our culture. UM, 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:52.079 so let's get started. I guess I'll contextualize this a 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:54.839 little bit by saying I chose this movie. I am 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:58.600 very curious as to what compelled you do want to 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:02.199 do this for your birthday? Of times, Well, I'm doing 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:03.840 it for I mean, I'm not doing it as a 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:08.000 gift to myself. This is very painful material to go through. Um, 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:10.680 but I'm doing it because I've been thinking about it 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:16.719 quite a bit lately. Because advertisement forthcoming, I am um 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:19.680 writing and producing an entire podcast that is about the 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:24.040 cultural impact of the book Lolita, because that's something that 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:26.680 I've always had a fixation on. I think it's very 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:32.600 telling and an interesting if disturbing obviously, but that it 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:35.000 was a book that I because I guess we should 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:37.240 just kind of talk about the property versus the movie, 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:41.840 because this is a movie that is not particularly remembered, 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:43.520 But that's going to be the jumping off point for 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:47.560 our discussion. In any case, Lolito was a book that 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:54.120 I came across when I was twelve because not good 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:58.640 because it had been recommended to me by Lemony Snicket 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:05.480 in a magazine and like, take a second with that. Uh. 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:09.240 So I came across this book really really early on 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:11.800 because I was obsessed with Lemony Sicket books. I thought 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:14.280 they were the best in the world. I still pretty 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:18.200 much do. Uh. The author I have some issues with, 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:21.840 but the But when I was twelve, I just wanted 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:24.120 to read what he was reading, and know what, you know, 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:27.720 I wanted to be like him. And so I read 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:32.760 in an interview in two thousand and five what his 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:36.200 favorite book was, and he said in a children's magazine, 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:40.520 Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov is my favorite book. And so 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:43.200 I went to the library and I got the book, 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:45.400 and I read the book, and I didn't understand the book, 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:48.720 and I took all the wrong messages away from the book. 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:52.840 And it's been a point of fascination for me ever since. 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:57.920 Because now obviously I am an adult and I have 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:00.960 read the book many times. I wouldn't say it is 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:04.720 my favorite book by any stretch, but I think it 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:10.080 is a very good book. And I reread it just 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:12.800 recently to like prepare for this podcast that I've been 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:16.680 working on, and what I find this interesting about Lolita 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:20.360 is that it seems like it's cultural legacy is just 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:25.720 taken completely out of context with what the story is about, 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:29.920 because you think, like I guess, when I was going 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:33.440 back to reread it, I was like, I wonder if 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:36.360 you know, just from because I hadn't read it since college. 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:40.040 I was like, is there any ambiguity about what the 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:43.960 nature of how Humberd Humberd is treating Lolita is? Is 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:46.320 there any way? Because I feel like our culture has 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:50.560 either framed it as a like doomed love story or 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:54.880 kind of just like a fashion aesthetic for young girls 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:59.600 that you see pop up in a lot of Japanese 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:02.440 fashion lines and also in Lana del Rey's music are 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:05.040 the two main places you will find it. But that's 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:08.120 like the Lolita brand now is it's clothing and it's 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:11.160 associated with this tragic love story, which is how I 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:15.040 think Humbritton Lolita are framed, and no small part because 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:17.800 of how this movie does it. But in any case, 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:19.600 I went back to read the book and I was like, 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:23.240 I wonder if the book is contributing to this problem? 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:25.560 And I would say pretty firmly that it is not. 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:28.840 The book could not be more. I mean, it is 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:34.240 horrifying what you're reading and it and it does. I mean, 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:35.880 I think that there's a lot of arguments to be 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:38.320 had that I'm still working through my own feelings about it, 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:42.000 like well what is this adding like what you know, 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:44.720 and there's a lot to talk about. Well, we'll talk 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:50.760 about it. But um, I find it kind of not 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:52.840 I mean, I guess it's it would be naive to 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.480 find it shocking. But given the fact that I've recently 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:59.560 read the book and it is very explicitly while the 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:02.800 narrator of his manipulative they you know, it's humbrid narrating 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:05.159 his own story, trying to get you to empathize with 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:07.399 him and trying to get you on his side because 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:11.520 it was, you know, in theory written in during his court, 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:16.520 uh like during his trial. That's what I'm saying. Um, 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:18.640 so it's him trying to manipulate a group of people 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:21.760 to get on his side. But he also is very 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:25.040 explicit about what is done. He refers to himself as 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:28.520 a predator and a number of other terms to that effect, 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:33.520 many many times constantly. The book, I feel like is 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:36.479 very clear at while it while it is a narrator 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:40.040 trying to manipulate you into being like, well, maybe it's okay, 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:45.800 but it's regardless, it's very clear. Yeah, there's no ambiguity. 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:50.399 I think in the movies and the other adaptations there is. 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:54.240 I don't even know if ambiguity is the word. It's 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:59.960 like just interpreted completely differently. And I feel like this movie, 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.280 this is the first major adaptation of Lolita, and it 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:07.240 just really gets us off to a horrible start and 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:12.800 it gets weirder and worse from there. So I'm very Yeah, 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:14.640 I've been attached to this book for a long time. 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:17.960 I think it is like an interesting case study, like 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:22.440 how American culture specifically takes a story that is very 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:26.159 explicit about being a story about the abuse of a 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:29.880 child and turning it into a sexy story that there 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:34.600 are fashion lessons to learn from. I find it fucking infuriating, 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:39.000 but it's also like, yeah, there's there's not a ton 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:40.639 of things where I feel like you can trace that 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:45.160 journey so directly. So that is why I chose it, 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:48.640 because I had been thinking about it NonStop. Got it? 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:53.879 What about you? So I believe if my memory serves 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:57.119 me correctly, I think I saw this movie before I 0:18:57.160 --> 0:18:59.920 read the book. I saw the movie for the first time, 0:18:59.920 --> 0:19:01.920 I think as a freshman in college. It was one 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:04.119 of those you know, like, I'm a film student, I 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:10.040 need to have seen right. Yeah, So I remember it 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:15.240 making me uncomfortable when I saw it, and uh not 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:19.480 ever feeling compelled to watch it again. Then a few 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:23.119 years later, still in college, I took an English class 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:27.040 my senior year, and it was like a banned books 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:31.399 class that taught literature that had been banned in different 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:36.840 capacities throughout history, and Lolita was one of the banned 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:40.880 books that we studied. So I read the book then, um, 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:43.359 And then I read the book a second time, or 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:48.320 at least I more skimmed it that time. During another 0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:51.679 class I took in grad school. I would hate to 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:56.639 bring up that I haven't spreading from Boston University, but 0:19:56.720 --> 0:20:01.320 we took a class specifically on adaptation. So Lolita got 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:05.239 taught in that class. That's exciting. And the kind of 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:11.679 discussion around Lolita being taught in this adaptation class was like, hey, 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:17.040 maybe some things shouldn't be adapted to film. Um. So 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:23.160 that was that many So that's kind of my history. Um. 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:27.080 I the whole. The property as a whole makes me 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:32.440 very unsettled and uncomfortable for obvious reasons. I don't remember 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:35.439 the book that well. I remember, like, I think the 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:38.920 discussion we had in like my English class around it 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:41.920 was everyone's like, oh, it's so well written. It's such 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:44.919 a well written book. And I remember being like, yeah, 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:48.960 but why are we reading a story from the point 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:55.280 of view of a predator, pedophile, child molester, Like what's 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:58.520 the value in that? And I that's like still where 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:02.480 I land on the entire higher property as a whole. 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:06.760 So that's where I'm coming from. Yeah, I mean, I 0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:08.960 think that we're not going to reach a conclus I mean, 0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:12.440 there's never going to be a conclusion reached on whether 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:14.000 this is the sort of thing that should be written 0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:16.879 about at all. And everyone, I mean it is, like 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:20.920 I think it's everyone is going to feel a slightly 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:23.880 different way about it. And it depends on what your 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:25.959 own experiences are, it depends on what your views are 0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:30.280 and and all this stuff. I truly don't know where 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:33.159 I fall. I do, like, I think that there is 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:37.919 in the same way that there are like Red Flag 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:42.760 movies for guys to be like, I mean, not necessarily 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:46.080 always guys, but like nine times out of ten, uh, 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:49.520 but but where people will be like, yeah, I know 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:52.639 that it's problematic, but look at it. There's good parts 0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:55.800 of it. And I am always kind of like my 0:21:55.880 --> 0:21:58.720 antenna goes up for that. I agree that it's a 0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:01.920 beautifully written book. I don't. I mean, it's kind of 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:05.200 I guess that's like the whole discussion of every band 0:22:05.240 --> 0:22:09.520 books class, right, like, is this uh taboo that we 0:22:09.600 --> 0:22:12.719 know happens in real life that should be discussed and 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:16.879 if so, who gets to be the narrator? Um? I 0:22:16.920 --> 0:22:21.960 think that every adaptation of Lolita, and I am now 0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:25.680 intimately familiar with all of them. There's been well, all 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:27.480 but one. I'm still trying to get my hands on 0:22:27.520 --> 0:22:31.600 the Russian opera, but I've studied four of them pretty closely. 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:34.879 I think that they're all failures to different degrees in 0:22:34.960 --> 0:22:38.920 different ways. It's it's hard because it's like this to 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:43.919 this topic of an abusive relationship, especially towards a child, 0:22:44.000 --> 0:22:50.040 it's never like it's never going to be a comfortable 0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:54.560 palatable subject for for everyone. And that's just I mean, 0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:59.560 because it shouldn't be. It's a fucking horrific thing to happen. Um. 0:22:59.640 --> 0:23:02.560 I've seen a lot of opinions on it, obviously, I've 0:23:02.600 --> 0:23:07.000 also seen uh survivors of this type of abuse who 0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:11.320 have felt very seen and have found the work to 0:23:11.359 --> 0:23:15.720 be sort of healing by and I can direct you 0:23:15.760 --> 0:23:18.520 just some blogs that I've found. I've done a deep 0:23:18.640 --> 0:23:22.479 dive into the Lolita blog a sphere, but there there 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:24.720 are some people who feel, as you do, Caitlin, that 0:23:24.760 --> 0:23:28.480 it's like there's absolutely no value in giving the abuser 0:23:28.560 --> 0:23:31.320 a voice, and I agree with that, But then I 0:23:31.359 --> 0:23:35.400 also have read the perspectives of survivors of this abuse 0:23:35.880 --> 0:23:40.320 who feel seen through the character of Lolita and appreciate 0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:45.080 who she is, appreciate feeling like this is a topic 0:23:45.160 --> 0:23:49.080 that's even being discussed at all, and so well, I 0:23:49.119 --> 0:23:53.120 don't feel that it is the best approach. I think 0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:55.400 it is a bit of a not a bit like 0:23:55.640 --> 0:23:58.399 it's whatever the nineteen fifties version of edge lord is 0:24:00.040 --> 0:24:02.800 that Nabokov is doing. I mean, it's a very edge 0:24:02.840 --> 0:24:06.399 lordy thing to try to do, and fortunately he's a 0:24:06.440 --> 0:24:09.800 great writer. Otherwise there we wouldn't even be having this discussion. 0:24:09.880 --> 0:24:13.399 No one would have adapted it. But that said, I 0:24:13.280 --> 0:24:16.280 I don't. I agree that certainly the predator's point of 0:24:16.359 --> 0:24:20.120 view is not the priority, but I don't think it's 0:24:20.119 --> 0:24:23.919 a valueless work because so many people, and especially a 0:24:23.960 --> 0:24:27.640 lot of young women, have found value in it that 0:24:27.680 --> 0:24:30.760 relates to their own experiences of abuse. I think that 0:24:30.800 --> 0:24:34.080 abuse should be something that is discussed in art um 0:24:34.160 --> 0:24:39.480 But this is a very imperfect and fucking complicated as 0:24:39.520 --> 0:24:42.520 hell way to do it that there was clearly no 0:24:42.600 --> 0:24:46.760 way to do in nineteen sixty two. But there's I 0:24:46.800 --> 0:24:50.200 don't think that we've done it successfully yet. I think 0:24:50.240 --> 0:24:53.000 that it's I feel like if this movie was ever 0:24:53.040 --> 0:24:54.840 going to be if this book was ever going to 0:24:54.840 --> 0:24:57.399 be adapted into film, it would have to be animated. 0:24:57.520 --> 0:25:01.120 I don't think that there is a safe, healthy way 0:25:01.240 --> 0:25:05.560 to adapt this work that is live action. I just 0:25:06.320 --> 0:25:08.640 they it's been attempted so many times. I also think 0:25:08.680 --> 0:25:13.080 it's directly related to who is adapting the work. The 0:25:13.119 --> 0:25:15.800 people who have been chosen to adapt this work are 0:25:15.920 --> 0:25:20.520 just it blows my fucking mind of like, Stanley Kubrick 0:25:20.680 --> 0:25:24.600 is your first Like seriously, the guy who's notorious for 0:25:24.720 --> 0:25:28.919 like abusing his power as a director. I mean, he 0:25:28.960 --> 0:25:31.520 wasn't at this time quite yet, this was his early 0:25:31.640 --> 0:25:33.600 one of his earlier movies. But but the fact that 0:25:33.600 --> 0:25:36.040 you would hand it off to a young man or 0:25:36.080 --> 0:25:38.879 like a man similar like not that far off from 0:25:38.960 --> 0:25:41.480 humbert Age. It's just you repeatedly see this work put 0:25:41.560 --> 0:25:46.080 into someone who is going to inherently prioritize Humbrid's voice 0:25:46.119 --> 0:25:50.800 above Lolita's The first time I have seen this work 0:25:51.160 --> 0:25:56.200 put into a woman's hand was literally last year. Like 0:25:56.640 --> 0:25:59.240 this movie was given to Stanley Kubrick first, we'll talk 0:25:59.240 --> 0:26:03.480 about that today. It fails, is given to Adrian Line. 0:26:03.640 --> 0:26:07.879 It super duper fails, horrendous. It was given to Edward 0:26:07.920 --> 0:26:11.840 Albee at one point. It fails. It was given to uh, 0:26:12.160 --> 0:26:14.440 let me get the names right, two of the most 0:26:15.080 --> 0:26:20.760 famous composers of all time in the nineties seventies. They 0:26:20.760 --> 0:26:24.760