Speaker 1: Also media.
Speaker 2: Hi everyone, and welcome to it could happen here.
Speaker 1: It's me James today and I am very lucky to
Speaker 1: join by Garrison.
Speaker 2: Hi Ge, Hello, Hi Garrison.
Speaker 1: I've some of you here today to talk about boats,
Speaker 1: a topic that white men love. But we're not going
Speaker 1: to talk about like going out on the lake and
Speaker 1: looking for bass today.
Speaker 2: I've only done bass fishing ones. It's not for me.
Speaker 3: Do you hold up the fish for the picture? Do
Speaker 3: you do the picture?
Speaker 1: I wasn't blessed with a bass on that trip, but
Speaker 1: I did get to It was very interesting because the
Speaker 1: guy had like a purple boat with gold flex in it.
Speaker 1: It didn't represent who I thought he was as a person.
Speaker 1: Turned out actually he had a boat sponsorship and he
Speaker 1: was going to sell it. But ah, it was a
Speaker 1: cool boat. I got to drive that boat pretty fast
Speaker 1: through some doughnuts and stuff. So that's another thing that
Speaker 1: calls to a part of my soul. I want to
Speaker 1: talk about private maritime security today. The reason why I've
Speaker 1: course is that Iran is currently attacking boats in the
Speaker 1: Strait of Horn Moves and elsewhere. Right there's some boats
Speaker 1: were attacked in portant Basara yesterday. We're recording this on Thursday.
Speaker 1: At the time of recording, they have attacked six boats.
Speaker 1: It's more likely than not that there will be more
Speaker 1: boats attacked by the time you are listening to this.
Speaker 2: It's been a really bad week for boat guys.
Speaker 3: It's been a bad year for boats in general.
Speaker 2: Oh, Venezuela.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, let's talk about private maritime security.
Speaker 2: So, like, when these boats are.
Speaker 1: Transmitting the Strait of horn Moves, right, the United States
Speaker 1: has offered and then rescinded the offer to escort them
Speaker 1: through the Straight of Horn Moves. It's very unlikely that
Speaker 1: the United States is going to be able to sufficiently
Speaker 1: escort every boat that goes through the State of Horn Moves.
Speaker 1: And this is a longstanding issue, right. I think probably
Speaker 1: lots of listeners won't be aware of the long history
Speaker 1: of private security on ships. Right. I'm only going to
Speaker 1: talk about this in the context of the twenty first century,
Speaker 1: but this goes.
Speaker 2: A lot further back.
Speaker 1: It's largely a consequence of the way the law governs
Speaker 1: the ocean. It's actually the same wow, sorry, yeah, daddy,
Speaker 1: long legs.
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's an American word for that
Speaker 2: that I don't.
Speaker 3: Know Daddy long legs.
Speaker 1: That's okay, Yeah, absolute unit has just entered my office space.
Speaker 1: World LM be the reason that we can have private
Speaker 1: security contractors, often with machine guns, etc. On boats, It's
Speaker 1: the same reason that horrific labor abuses are perpetrated on
Speaker 1: boats on a daily basis. Right, Perhaps the most well
Speaker 1: documented are among the most well documented are the ones
Speaker 1: off Thailand on fishing ships, which often involve Burmese refugees
Speaker 1: or people fleeing me anma right there essentially enslaved on
Speaker 1: these boats or in sort of indentured servitude of trying
Speaker 1: to quote unquote pay off their trip out of the
Speaker 1: country they were fleeing. Right, I'm not talking about labor
Speaker 1: abuses today. I want to talk more about private security.
Speaker 1: Most of security provided two boats in the world.
Speaker 2: In general, it's not.
Speaker 1: Provided by states. It is provided by private military contractors.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: Earlier on in the twentieth century, the typical profile of
Speaker 1: one of these people would have been that they'd left
Speaker 1: the military in a state in the global north. They
Speaker 1: had found let's say, life for employment in the civilian
Speaker 1: world to be difficult for them. And I've met a
Speaker 1: number of these people in a number of places. Many
Speaker 1: of them went to parts of Africa thinking that they
Speaker 1: were going to work protecting wildlife and then ending up
Speaker 1: protecting large container ships instead, or attempting to work for
Speaker 1: a company that would one day let them protect wildlife
Speaker 1: or something similar. Generally, the companies they end up working
Speaker 1: for are generally referred to as private maritime security companies PMSCs,
Speaker 1: as opposed to PMC private military contractor, although it is
Speaker 1: a version of the same thing. Generally, these companies offer
Speaker 1: a shipping company a sort of package, and it's not
Speaker 1: just armed. Security also include stuff like intelligence, crisis response,
Speaker 1: and potential intervention. I spoke to someone, for instance, who
Speaker 1: had worked for a shipping company and his major job
Speaker 1: was to deal with when people were kidnapped off the boats.
Speaker 1: He would then either go and rescue the people or
Speaker 1: negotiate with the people who would kidnapped them.
Speaker 3: These are like cargo ships, oil tankers like what kind of.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so mostly they are on large commercial vessels, right,
Speaker 1: cargo ships, oil tankers, things with an expensive cargo, although
Speaker 1: it is not unheard of for pmsc's. For instance, you
Speaker 1: may have a maritime security company to secure your large
Speaker 1: mega yacht.
Speaker 3: Sure, right, or another boat that you're worried about. Did
Speaker 3: these happen on my cruise ships? Sometimes?
Speaker 1: Yes, there was a shootout in the early two thousand
Speaker 1: so I shoot out, it's probably private security characters on it.
Speaker 1: I think it was an Italian cruise ship fired at
Speaker 1: pirates who are attempting to board cruise ship.
Speaker 3: Huh.
Speaker 1: It's a lot less uncommon than you would think.
Speaker 3: So when we're planning the twenty twenty eight Cool Zone
Speaker 3: Media Cruise all access included, we're going to have to
Speaker 3: contact with one of these companies.
Speaker 1: I think we can probably bring that in house. I
Speaker 1: think that that would be the goal at that point.
Speaker 1: Right within the Greater iHeart Ecosystem Garrison, we have so
Speaker 1: many automatic weapons. You don't listen to the like Belfed
Speaker 1: Machine Gun podcast, the iHeart Militia. It's US and TED
Speaker 1: cruise and we're we haven't really agreed on very much
Speaker 1: other than gun ownership. Maybe we should talk about when
Speaker 1: the real reason like PMSCs took off in the twenty
Speaker 1: first century was the rise in piracy of Somalia. Right
Speaker 1: before this piracy had existed, mostly in Southeast Asia. On
Speaker 1: piracy has guested for as long as people going on
Speaker 1: boats has existed, right, Let's specifically piracy off Southeast Asia
Speaker 1: had before this been more of a like a smash
Speaker 1: and grab kind of situation, like turn up, take what
Speaker 1: you can leave. What was distinct in this piracy that
Speaker 1: we began to see from like two thousand and eight
Speaker 1: onwards was that pirates were either trying to see the
Speaker 1: entire cargo of a vessel the vessel itself, or to
Speaker 1: kidnap people from the vessel and hold them for ransom.
Speaker 1: I guess the most high profile case was called the Maskalabama.
Speaker 2: Are you familiar with this one?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: Okay, this is that's good because you get to hear
Speaker 2: a story.
Speaker 3: I don't keep up with piratenews dot org.
Speaker 2: Really, I can see you being like pirate curious. No,
Speaker 2: you're not interested in.
Speaker 3: I've always had kind of a love hate relationship with pirates, Okay,
Speaker 3: you know, undeniably cool in some way, also a little
Speaker 3: bit messy.
Speaker 2: They can be messy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, lots of overlap between pirates and anarchism.
Speaker 2: I'm sure you've this is true.
Speaker 3: Yeah, some of my same critiques there for you both sides.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I can also be messy.
Speaker 3: As soon as the pirates all start wearing matching black suits,
Speaker 3: then we can talk.
Speaker 1: I think that's inherently like the piracy isn't about that.
Speaker 1: Piracy is about self expression.
Speaker 3: That's the thing, got it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, yeah, great, disagree. I like a diverse pirate
Speaker 1: outfit personally, in this case, a small vessel, right. I
Speaker 1: think they had four or five pirates.
Speaker 2: They had like.
Speaker 1: Pretty basic weaponry RTE like kalashnikovs. I think they boarded
Speaker 1: the mess Galabama. The boat had a pirate alarm, and
Speaker 1: they sounded the pirate alarm. In this you have to
Speaker 1: struggle to repress your like eighteenth century like mind pallas, right, Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the crew sheltered in. They had like a safe room. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they went in this safe room. Well, they captured the
Speaker 1: captain of the ship pretty quickly. The ship didn't have
Speaker 1: any means of defending itself other than it tried to,
Speaker 1: like I'm not a massive boat understander, it tried to
Speaker 1: use its rudder to swamp the pirate ship as it
Speaker 1: was coming up, so like kind of flick it and
Speaker 1: that didn't work. Yeah, And one member of the ship's
Speaker 1: crew who hid himself with a knife and successfully subdued
Speaker 1: and captured the leader of the pirates and the crew
Speaker 1: then attempted to trade this person for their captain. They
Speaker 1: tied up the pirate who they had captured attempted to
Speaker 1: trade him for their captain. The pirates took the leader
Speaker 1: of the pirates and then never gave the crew their
Speaker 1: captain and then made off in a lifeboat with a
Speaker 1: large amount of cash and the captain. This resulted in
Speaker 1: a standoff. Now, the Mescalabama was a I believe a
Speaker 1: US flagged ship. It may have been a US Dutch ship,
Speaker 1: but it was flagged to like a nation in the
Speaker 1: major in the global north right. This would become relevant later.
Speaker 1: The United States sent two boats which proceeded to engage
Speaker 1: in a standoff with the lifeboat for several days, where
Speaker 1: they first attempted to drop a SAP phone and a
Speaker 1: mobile phone to.
Speaker 2: The pirates in the lifeboat.
Speaker 1: The pirates through those in the ocean because they thought
Speaker 1: that they were using them to communicate with the captain
Speaker 1: of the ship. At one point, the captain, who they'd
Speaker 1: held hostage, ended up in the ocean, but then he
Speaker 1: got back into the lifeboat. The situation was resolved eventually
Speaker 1: by the Navy seals shooting all the pirates. They were
Speaker 1: based on one of the US ships, and they used
Speaker 1: siper rifles to shoot the pirates.
Speaker 2: Really yep, they shot.
Speaker 1: Them all off the lifeboat while the captain of the
Speaker 1: ship was also in the lifeboat. WHOA, yeah, no, then
Speaker 1: I would be shocked if that's not a film about this,
Speaker 1: or I know the captain of the ship has written
Speaker 1: a book about his time being captured. But obviously, like
Speaker 1: this kind of rattled the world, right, It scared a
Speaker 1: lot of people, specifically in the shipping industry, because this
Speaker 1: is a scary thing to happen, and specifically this change
Speaker 1: in the nature of piracy from taking stuff to potentially
Speaker 1: capturing people. And I believe the goal of the pirates
Speaker 1: here was to get the captain ashore where they could hide.
Speaker 2: Him more easily, right in Somalia.
Speaker 1: And then it becomes entirely different issue when you're trying
Speaker 1: to get US troops into a completely different country to
Speaker 1: rescue someone.
Speaker 3: A different land mass. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it's really important to talk about
Speaker 1: like the jurisdictional issues here because they are what gives
Speaker 1: the pmsc is so much leeway. I think we'll take
Speaker 1: a little break talking about jurisdiction and then we will
Speaker 1: come back.
Speaker 2: All right, we're back.
Speaker 1: So to understand private maritime security companies, you've got to
Speaker 1: understand the world of flags of convenience first. Familiar with
Speaker 1: flags the convenience garrison. No, No, okay, this is good.
Speaker 1: This is James gets to download shit that he reads
Speaker 1: that no, for no reason at like eleven o'clock at night.
Speaker 1: There are nations in the world states that allow vessels
Speaker 1: to register under their flag even if the owner of
Speaker 1: the vessel it's not a citizen of that country.
Speaker 2: It's called an open registry.
Speaker 1: So if you hang out in the port, spend time
Speaker 1: looking at boats, to look at the flags of other boats,
Speaker 1: you will often see flags of a few countries. The
Speaker 1: most common ones are Liberia, Panama, and the Republic of
Speaker 1: the Marshall Islands. The reason that boat owners might choose
Speaker 1: let's say you Garrison have a boat right or a
Speaker 1: shipping company Garrison Davis Boats Incorporated, and you don't want
Speaker 1: to register them in Canada or the United States, might
Speaker 1: be to avoid tax liability. Might be to avoid like
Speaker 1: what you consider to be burdens and safety regulations, okay,
Speaker 1: might be to avoid the frustrating constraints of Canadian labor law,
Speaker 1: or it might be to avoid some ecological constraints on
Speaker 1: your boats which your flag nation might impose. And generally
Speaker 1: flags of convenience have very little in the way of
Speaker 1: taxation and regulation, right and so people might choose to
Speaker 1: flag their vessel in Liberia, Panama, Publican, Marshall Islands, Hong
Speaker 1: Kong instead to avoid some of those issues. Right now,
Speaker 1: the issue comes when you read say you register your
Speaker 1: boat in Liberia and your boat is off on its
Speaker 1: way delivering things, and then some pirates sees your boat.
Speaker 3: I'm guessing Liberia is not going to be of much assistance.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're not coming, yeah, yeah, the Liberian Navy is
Speaker 1: not available to help you in that instance right now.
Speaker 1: Because there tends to be very little constraint on flags
Speaker 1: of convenience, there's also very little constraint on what can
Speaker 1: happen on those boats, right so you could hire a
Speaker 1: private maritime security company and they could protect your boat,
Speaker 1: and the chances are the flagger convenience country would not
Speaker 1: regulate anything that they did on your boat or the
Speaker 1: weaponry they held on your boat. Ah, the rMIDAS the
Speaker 1: Marshall Islands does, does regulate somewhat the weaponry that the
Speaker 1: Marshal Islands flagged boats could have. I think the reason
Speaker 1: there are so many boats flagged in the Marshall Islands,
Speaker 1: at least in part, is because half the world's tuna
Speaker 1: is caught in Marshall Islands waters. So a lot of
Speaker 1: those vessels will probably have They'll choose for the Marshal
Speaker 1: Islands flag because it allows them to fish in territorial waters.
Speaker 1: Would be my guess. I've met some some contractors on
Speaker 1: Marshal Lea's boat, so I'm not a guy who is
Speaker 1: a helicopter pilot for a tuna fishing boat in a
Speaker 1: bar once. I guess they fly the helicopter to look
Speaker 1: for the fish and then the boat comes and catches
Speaker 1: the fish.
Speaker 2: Huh Yeah, fascinating world.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a highly enjoyable job, but I
Speaker 1: think it's people do it tog They're flight hours up
Speaker 1: so they can do other things. So because of this
Speaker 1: legal it's not really a legal gray area, just the
Speaker 1: fact that these people are not regulated in any way.
Speaker 2: Right people can carry weapons on ships.
Speaker 1: Now, in the case of piracy off Somalia specifically, the
Speaker 1: United Nations did authorize military action against Somali pirates, and
Speaker 1: between twenty and forty boats were there at any given
Speaker 1: time in the next four years trying to police piracy.
Speaker 1: But that's not enough boats because every boat that is
Speaker 1: moving through that area is at risk for piracy. And
Speaker 1: pirates can use very small boats to board very big boats, right,
Speaker 1: And unless that very big boat is somehow able to
Speaker 1: defend itself, all they need is a few weapons and
Speaker 1: the ability to get out board, and they're hard to truck, right.
Speaker 1: I've heard from people who did contracting in the pre
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight era that basically that they put
Speaker 1: barbed wire on the edge of the boat to stop
Speaker 1: people getting on, and then they had the l rap
Speaker 1: like they was that long range the sound weapon. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the sound weapon, And I'm not sure that it was
Speaker 1: there as a weapon. I think it was there to
Speaker 1: notify other ships like get out the way, but that
Speaker 1: it could be weaponized. And then after that it was
Speaker 1: like big sticks and harsh words, I guess. So like
Speaker 1: when you have the guys who took over the mesk
Speaker 1: Alabama coming in with a few kalashnikov they have the
Speaker 1: balance of force on their side, right, That.
Speaker 2: Is no longer the case anymore.
Speaker 1: Initially in two thousand and nine, groups like Blackwater tried
Speaker 1: to get in on this, and they did it actually
Speaker 1: by more or less, I guess, like copying the privateer
Speaker 1: model that we'd seen in the nineteenth century. They refitted
Speaker 1: commercial boats with weapons and offered them like for higher
Speaker 1: as like a rental, like as an accompaniment.
Speaker 3: They would like gas scort another ship.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they'd escort you through this dangerous area and then
Speaker 1: turn around and escort someone who was going the other way.
Speaker 2: Or that was the idea.
Speaker 1: Yes, sure, it didn't really work a because it was
Speaker 1: expensive right to run these vessels, and b because you
Speaker 1: need so many of them, and so what they ended
Speaker 1: up doing instead was actually stationing people on the vessels.
Speaker 1: So these security contractors will now live on the oil
Speaker 1: tanker or the container ship, either for its all journey
Speaker 1: or for the duration of the time which it's considered
Speaker 1: danger well.
Speaker 3: And also, I mean, if pirates try to get onto
Speaker 3: the big ship and all of the military guys are
Speaker 3: on a different ship a little bit behind, you have
Speaker 3: to get those guys onto the other ship, right.
Speaker 1: And then then now you're shooting at the ship that
Speaker 1: you're supposed to be protecting. And I can see that big.
Speaker 3: That does just make it a little bit more complicated.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Unfortunately, the way, according to reports I've read,
Speaker 1: I should say, the way they have got around this
Speaker 1: issue is by preemptively shooting at vessels that they consider
Speaker 1: to be a threat. Sure, and there are plenty of
Speaker 1: allegations of them. We'll get onto the lack of really
Speaker 1: any means of legal accountability at some point. What they
Speaker 1: do instead is they allow contractors to go on the ships,
Speaker 1: and these contractors then have.
Speaker 2: To be armed. Right.
Speaker 1: The way they tend to be armed is depending on
Speaker 1: the flag of the ship and what regulations it has.
Speaker 1: Right generally, if they're entering into an area where they
Speaker 1: can't be armed, they have what are called floating armories.
Speaker 2: Those are what they sound like.
Speaker 1: You don't understand how long in my freelance career I
Speaker 1: spent trying to get onto one of these particular boats.
Speaker 2: It was a long time.
Speaker 3: So is this just like a tiny boat on a
Speaker 3: string with a whole winch of guns on it? Like
Speaker 3: what it could be?
Speaker 1: It could be an old oil platform, it could be
Speaker 1: a little boat, could be a big boat. Sometimes the
Speaker 1: contractors themselves will like that's where the contractors will meet
Speaker 1: the big boat, right and they'll get on it there,
Speaker 1: so they have like an area they can hang out,
Speaker 1: like it has living facilities.
Speaker 3: Huh.
Speaker 1: I've spoken to a few people in this world, but
Speaker 1: you know, if you happen to be listening and you're
Speaker 1: boat secure, guy, I know. This is continues to fascinate
Speaker 1: me as an area where like the state doesn't exist
Speaker 1: and we have this like post state private militarization.
Speaker 3: It's like anarcho capitalism. Yeah, yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, exactly
Speaker 3: it is. It is a vision of the ancap future
Speaker 3: that I don't love. That is very interesting.
Speaker 1: Right, there were states that offered to have like vessel detachments.
Speaker 2: The Dutch did this.
Speaker 1: I believe they would be like, we will send you
Speaker 1: I'm not familiar with the Dutch military. Sorry, Dutch listeners,
Speaker 1: Dutch marines, I imagine, right, and you can have a
Speaker 1: few of them on your boat. But even Dutch companies
Speaker 1: are Dutch flag vessels weren't using it because it was
Speaker 1: so much paperwork and the government couldn't keep up with
Speaker 1: their demands.
Speaker 2: So they might now what to get some guys, what's
Speaker 2: pay them? Fine?
Speaker 1: Yeah, the state has more or less completely removed itself
Speaker 1: from the sphere and removed itself from doing anything approaching accountability,
Speaker 1: and so it is extremely hard for these people to
Speaker 1: be held accountable for things that they do in international waters. Right,
Speaker 1: there are like industry standards in the industry itself sets,
Speaker 1: in the same way that there are standards for cops
Speaker 1: that the cops themselves set, and those have generally not
Speaker 1: been the best means of accountability. Right in the theory,
Speaker 1: anytime they engage someone, certainly, if they kill someone, the
Speaker 1: ship's authorities should report that.
Speaker 2: Yeah hopefully, Yeah cool, I'm sure they will. I'm sure
Speaker 2: they love to do the paperwork. But then who would
Speaker 2: they report it to?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: Do they report it to the country they suspect the
Speaker 1: people they are shooting at their country? Do they report
Speaker 1: it to the flag of convenience country? Do they report
Speaker 1: it to the company they work for? Like, I'm sure
Speaker 1: there is some jurisdiction of maritime law which would give
Speaker 1: us an answer to that, But in practice there appears
Speaker 1: to be very little mechanism for accountability, in the same
Speaker 1: way that there is very little mechanism for accountability for
Speaker 1: labor law violations at sea. I would recommend if people
Speaker 1: haven't listened this podcast called Outlaw Ocean. It's probably five
Speaker 1: or six years old at this point. I think it
Speaker 1: was in New York Times Investigation along with someone else.
Speaker 1: It was a good podcast about labor violations at sea,
Speaker 1: and they specifically looked at some of these fishing vessels
Speaker 1: and the fact that they use people who are essentially
Speaker 1: an indentured servitude. But they also touched on private maritime security.
Speaker 1: These days we see a lot less piracy off Somalia
Speaker 1: right it has reached its peak. I found this little
Speaker 1: chunk in an article I was reading on jastore this
Speaker 1: morning that I thought was interesting. Quote maritime security companies
Speaker 1: have been consulted on greenpeace activists attempt to climb onto
Speaker 1: a gas prom off your platform in September twenty thirteen
Speaker 1: to protest ruling in the Arctic and attacks against oil
Speaker 1: and gas installations by the Movement for the Emancipation as
Speaker 1: a Niche a Delta. So I guess these people have
Speaker 1: a wide remit in which they operate. As I say,
Speaker 1: they's somewhat different from like land based PMCs because land
Speaker 1: brace private military contractors are generally operating either with backup
Speaker 1: from a state or as back up to a state,
Speaker 1: and so there is like an accountability mechanism somewhat there.
Speaker 1: We saw in the Global War on Terror that we
Speaker 1: still lack accountability mechanisms for private military contractors on land,
Speaker 1: but that certainly remains the case on the ocean.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So another thing we should consider here is a
Speaker 1: historical parallels, right, And the obvious historical parallel would be
Speaker 1: looked to nineteen eighty seven and the what's generally referred
Speaker 1: to as the tanker War. Right. What the United States
Speaker 1: attempted to do was to open up a channel. The
Speaker 1: straightform moves is very narrow. As I said, it's narrowest point.
Speaker 1: It's just twenty one miles. There are two channels because
Speaker 1: obviously not the entire twenty one miles is deep enough
Speaker 1: ships to go through. There are two channels that are
Speaker 1: each about two miles wide, and they're three kilometers wide.
Speaker 1: It's still not very great at that conversion. So the
Speaker 1: United States attempted is to open one channel and then
Speaker 1: run a convoy system.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: Think about when you have roadworks and you know, the
Speaker 1: cars go one way, and then the cars go the
Speaker 1: other way, and someone goes in front of you and
Speaker 1: they have like a flashing light tow you to follow
Speaker 1: them or what have you. And the United States attempted
Speaker 1: to escort convoys of mostly reflagged Kuwaiti oil tankers through
Speaker 1: the straight Horn moves right. The very first escort mission
Speaker 1: involved a Kuwaiti oil tanker that had reflagged as an
Speaker 1: American tanker become the Bridgeton, and it was the Bridgeton
Speaker 1: that struck an underwater mine on that very first mission.
Speaker 1: I didn't cause any casualties, it did cause damage to
Speaker 1: the ship. During that same operation in the United States
Speaker 1: ship also struck a mine. The it was called the
Speaker 1: United States Samuel Roberts Samuel B.
Speaker 2: Roberts.
Speaker 1: I believe it struck a mine while transiting international waters.
Speaker 1: It just goes to show that when there are minds
Speaker 1: in this area, in any area, it's very hard to
Speaker 1: know when they've all been removed, and it's very hard
Speaker 1: to know where they all are right now. During that
Speaker 1: same operation, a United States warship mistakenly shot down an
Speaker 1: Aralian civilian flight, killing all two hundred and ninety people
Speaker 1: on board. This goes to show how crowded the space
Speaker 1: is around the straight Before moves, and it goes to
Speaker 1: show how I mean, even in a relatively modern war rate,
Speaker 1: the possibility for mistakes is very high. And that's before
Speaker 1: you even consider the fact that the Trump administration is.
Speaker 2: Willing to accept.
Speaker 1: Even among administrations as the United States, they are willing
Speaker 1: to accept a very high number of innocent deaths. I
Speaker 1: also want to talk about, because this is such a
Speaker 1: small straight to crowded straight rape, the possibility of attack
Speaker 1: is not just limited to naval attack, right to boats.
Speaker 1: We know that US destroyed most of Iran's navy, and
Speaker 1: we're going to speak about how the IGC navy is
Speaker 1: not the same as Iran's regular flag navy. Right when
Speaker 1: we talk about the Iranian navy big gray boats, Yes,
Speaker 1: the US has destroyed many of those. With the IGC,
Speaker 1: we're looking at much smaller, fast attack vessels, right, sometimes
Speaker 1: civilian vessels with a machine gun mounted to them.
Speaker 2: Those have not all been destroyed.
Speaker 1: It will be very hard for United States to destroy
Speaker 1: those all from the air, as it will be for
Speaker 1: the United States to destroy the ground attack capability that
Speaker 1: Iran has.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: They have Hormus missiles, they have Shahied drones, they can
Speaker 1: use regular unguided rockets, a shahed drone from anywhere in
Speaker 1: the country of Iran, given its range, could hit a
Speaker 1: boat in the Strait of Hormos. These Hornmus class missiles,
Speaker 1: they're called Hormus missiles, so they're launch from vehicles.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: It looks like a lorry and it comes out and
Speaker 1: it pops up its back lifts like the miss island
Speaker 1: launches it. These are very easy to hide, right. Lots
Speaker 1: of entities in this region use tunnels and caves to
Speaker 1: hide things. I'm sure the Iranian state does too. But
Speaker 1: you could hide one of these missile launches anywhere in
Speaker 1: a city in a cave and a tunnel. It only
Speaker 1: needs to pop out deliver its missile, and then it
Speaker 1: can be abandoned right, or it can go back into
Speaker 1: its cave whatever it wants. But the Iranians don't need
Speaker 1: to destroy every ship that transits the Strait of horn
Speaker 1: Moves to close the Straight of horn Moos. First of all,
Speaker 1: there are only two three kilometer channels.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: If there is a wrecked ship in one of those channels,
Speaker 1: the channel gets smaller and smaller, and therefore your chance
Speaker 1: of hitting the mines that are there gets higher and higher. Right,
Speaker 1: Because there's less way to go around them. The Iranians
Speaker 1: only have to make transiting the Straight of Horn moves
Speaker 1: uninsurable to succeed. Right, So, what has happened with private
Speaker 1: maritime security contractors so far is that their presence has
Speaker 1: made transiting high risk areas areas at high risk for
Speaker 1: piracy an insurable effort. Because frequently you will hear that
Speaker 1: a ship with armed security has never been taken by pirates.
Speaker 1: That's really hard for us to confirm, right like, there's
Speaker 1: no independent data on that, but certainly it likely reduces
Speaker 1: a chance of them being taken by pirates, and that
Speaker 1: has made them insurable. The Iranians knocking out one or
Speaker 1: two tankers will make the Straight of Horn moons an
Speaker 1: uninsurable passage, or it will make that insurance so costly
Speaker 1: that commercial entities will not be willing to undertake that journey.
Speaker 1: Right now, Donald Trump has said the United States will
Speaker 1: act as the insurer, I know, man like, it will
Speaker 1: be a lot of tankers for us to buy the
Speaker 1: if the Iranians keep you know, they've they've knocked out
Speaker 1: two large vessels overnight, it seems unlikely. Donal Trump's said
Speaker 1: a lot of things, right, not all of them are
Speaker 1: true very well. Even in the last few weeks or
Speaker 1: Trump to said a lot of things about the Straight
Speaker 1: of Horror moves that were not true. So we will see.
Speaker 1: But I wanted to explain some of those threats. Have
Speaker 1: to talk about the specific naval threat now that IGC Navy,
Speaker 1: all right, So let's move on to discussing what exactly
Speaker 1: this means in the current era. Right when the United
Speaker 1: States is saying the Straight of Horror moves is open
Speaker 1: except for Iran shooting at ships, and Iran is radioing
Speaker 1: ships right now and telling them that they're not allowed
Speaker 1: to enter the Straight of Horror moos and thenre obviously
Speaker 1: threatening them if they do. So, what we will see
Speaker 1: right now in the Straight of Horror moves is this
Speaker 1: situation where Iran has a few mechanisms for attacking these
Speaker 1: these ships. Right, the one that's being talked about the
Speaker 1: most are minds, and the minds that are run has
Speaker 1: to my understanding, and just straight up World War two
Speaker 1: le C minds. If you ever played Mine Sweeper Garrison,
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, So they look like that, right.
Speaker 1: They have these big contact fuses on them, that is
Speaker 1: what they are, right. The way the current works in
Speaker 1: a straight up horn moves if they can kind of
Speaker 1: circulate around, okay, which will make them you know, you
Speaker 1: can't be like, okay that this area is mine.
Speaker 3: We're just going to avoid the mines. Yeah, right, Like
Speaker 3: this whole strait is mine now. And as we covered
Speaker 3: in ed on Friday, the US doesn't have a great
Speaker 3: capacity to remove those mines.
Speaker 1: But the thing which has been less discussed is that
Speaker 1: the IIGC has tons and if they don't have, if
Speaker 1: they run out, it's very easy to make more, right
Speaker 1: of like.
Speaker 2: Civilian fast boats.
Speaker 1: Think of a little boat with a motor on the
Speaker 1: back and a belt fed machine gun in the front,
Speaker 1: right like, very easy to take those boats and swarm
Speaker 1: a large vessel, right Like, even if that vessel has
Speaker 1: private security on board. The straightforward moves is twenty one
Speaker 1: miles across. Like you could harass people if you had
Speaker 1: a jet ski.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you could have a little jet ski technical or
Speaker 3: just tell yeah yeah with an RPG on the back.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The most dudes rock vessel that it's ever taken to
Speaker 1: the seas. Yeah, I might have to hand it to
Speaker 1: that LGC if they did that, but under very few
Speaker 1: I don't know. Circumstances. Yeah, do you have to hand
Speaker 1: it to the Yeah, the Iranian state in any capacity.
Speaker 1: Now I'm shitting around like I think the state of
Speaker 1: irun is terrible, misogynist, violent and oppressive entity and shouldn't exist.
Speaker 1: Just to be like super duper clear. They also have
Speaker 1: what are called uncrewed surface vessels.
Speaker 2: I'm sure they use like the gender neutral framing, but
Speaker 2: they are.
Speaker 1: Think of a large Think of a boat that doesn't
Speaker 1: have anyone driving it, right, And it was uncrewed surface
Speaker 1: vessels that they used last night at the time of
Speaker 1: recording to explode a tanker in the port in Barcera. Right, Okay,
Speaker 1: very hard for the United States to stop these uncrewed
Speaker 1: surface vessels, right, They are like the Shihi drone of
Speaker 1: the ocean. This boat's not coming home. It's designed to
Speaker 1: eliminate another boat, but it can be It could be steered, right,
Speaker 1: It's not just like a torpedo. So what exactly are
Speaker 1: the options I guess for the United States. Trump has
Speaker 1: offered to secure shipping through the straight ofform moose.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: He offered to accompany ships. The Navy doesn't have the
Speaker 1: capacity to do that, to accompany the amount of the world.
Speaker 1: Shipping that goes through the straight ofform moos would require
Speaker 1: masses of ships to accompany them, right, They'd have to
Speaker 1: travel at the same speed as these ships. Some of
Speaker 1: these ships are flagged to countries all over the world, right,
Speaker 1: including countries the US doesn't have the best relationship with,
Speaker 1: especially right now. The companies could hire more private marriage security,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure they will, but also like part of
Speaker 1: the role of private maritime security companies is to be like,
Speaker 1: don't do that, it's too dangerous. And going through a
Speaker 1: straight upward moves right now is probably too dangerous, right, sure,
Speaker 1: So I don't know how you would quickly equip a
Speaker 1: ship in a way that you could be like cast
Speaker 1: iron secure that it will be able to fend off
Speaker 1: like a little swarm of little boats.
Speaker 2: Trying to attack it. Right.
Speaker 1: I don't think an RPG could sink one of these ships,
Speaker 1: but it could really fucking give it a bad day.
Speaker 1: Oh you know, Like it's not a good situation when
Speaker 1: there's a hole in your boat, from what I understand. So, like,
Speaker 1: the other option would be for the US to put
Speaker 1: personnel on these ships, which would be problematic from a
Speaker 1: number of approaches. Right, it is a Liberian flagship, and
Speaker 1: now you're asking, like what US marines to risk their
Speaker 1: lives to defend the Liberian flagship so everyone can get
Speaker 1: their TIMU purchases, and like, we can not slow.
Speaker 2: Down glow trade.
Speaker 1: There is not a good option here, Like the state,
Speaker 1: the States of the world couldn't find a good option
Speaker 1: when we were dealing with piracy in two thousand and nine, ten, eleven, twelve. Right,
Speaker 1: they felt better outsourcing the accountability for that to private companies.
Speaker 1: The States didn't want to have to wear the reputation
Speaker 1: damage for like this boat once again opened up with
Speaker 1: a belt fed on what turned out to be a
Speaker 1: fishing vessel, or they felt like that liability was too
Speaker 1: much for them, right, So they didn't want to do it,
Speaker 1: and they would much rather have private companies do it.
Speaker 1: I don't really see an option here that makes the
Speaker 1: shipping safe going through this area.
Speaker 3: You could not start a war with Iran.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that is a really good option, actually one
Speaker 1: that one that sadly that ship has sailed as they say, garrison,
Speaker 1: but yeah, it is. This industry is already problematic, Like
Speaker 1: even before the United States started bombing Venezuela and the
Speaker 1: Colombian fishing vessels or vessels that it accused of being
Speaker 1: drug traffickers. There has been a long history of a
Speaker 1: lack of accountability for people being killed at sea and
Speaker 1: for people being abused at sea through labor violations. I
Speaker 1: don't really see a way we come out of this
Speaker 1: without more damage to innocent lives, right, Like, either the
Speaker 1: United States just decides that it's going to go like
Speaker 1: scorched earth on any boat it sees in the straight
Speaker 1: ofform moves isn't like a big tanker. But even then,
Speaker 1: these these like these vessels, they're not all US flagged, right,
Speaker 1: the US doesn't have a means to be like, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: you can go now, you can't go now. The straightform
Speaker 1: moves is not in the United States. It doesn't control
Speaker 1: that water, and so I don't really see a solution
Speaker 1: for this now. Like, one thing that the world of
Speaker 1: private maritime security shows us is that neoliberal globalism is
Speaker 1: willing to look the other way a great deal and
Speaker 1: allow a great deal of violence on behalf of corporations,
Speaker 1: not on behalf of the state. Right Like, when people
Speaker 1: are getting engaged by these vessels, it is to protect property, granted,
Speaker 1: sometimes it is also to protect life, right, Like these
Speaker 1: pirates have killed people and kidnap people as such. But
Speaker 1: the state has been willing to seed its monopoly on
Speaker 1: violence at the high seas because it could find a
Speaker 1: good solution to this, and it's been willing to overlook
Speaker 1: a lot of loss of life. And I just don't
Speaker 1: see a way that this doesn't lead to more loss
Speaker 1: of life, and that is probably what we have to
Speaker 1: look forward to. It may have already begun happening in
Speaker 1: the Strait of Hormus between when we record this and
Speaker 1: when you hear it, but it is deeply concerning and
Speaker 1: pretty shit given that there are so many people just
Speaker 1: trying to make their way and live their lives in
Speaker 1: that area. Yeah, it's a happy one. Shout out to
Speaker 1: Greenpeace also for also patronizing these companies.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you told me this was going to be a
Speaker 3: recording about pirates.
Speaker 1: There were pirates in it. That was a big yeah.
Speaker 1: But I know, if you're a pirate and you're listening,
Speaker 1: I would love to hear from more pirates.
Speaker 3: Between the pirates, the private maritime contractors, and the governments,
Speaker 3: it's like everyone here has their own issues. Yeah, and
Speaker 3: all these issues are getting massively intensified by the conflict
Speaker 3: and aran obviously.
Speaker 1: Yeah, before we even talk about the ecological crisis that
Speaker 1: we will see in the Gulf, right, Like, you start
Speaker 1: putting holes in oil tankers, that is going to be
Speaker 1: absolutely horrific for the environment. Again in an area where
Speaker 1: people are ready to struggling to make it by I.
Speaker 3: Mean, why don't they just pull a pull of fitz Coronaldo.
Speaker 3: Why don't they just pull those ships up? Oh God,
Speaker 3: avoid them straight altogether.
Speaker 1: Maybe people haven't seen this, and this surface is like
Speaker 1: every three days right now on Twitter, Like, why don't
Speaker 1: they just go across land? It turns out that mountains,
Speaker 1: big mountains, hard water doesn't like going uphill, quite a
Speaker 1: challenging terrain to transit. I think maybe people don't realize
Speaker 1: that eighty percent think I believe it's eighty percent.
Speaker 2: Of global trade still travels by boat.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like it is still the way that most things
Speaker 1: get to most places. And I think we are about
Speaker 1: to find out that the boat ignorers are about to
Speaker 1: find out if this continues for weeks or months, then
Speaker 1: it will be incredibly detrimental.
Speaker 3: Is this a good or a bad time to enter
Speaker 3: the private mirriortime contracting business. How much are you enjoying
Speaker 3: your life decently? Well, okay, yeah, probably stay out of
Speaker 3: it and bye with you. Because they got to be
Speaker 3: getting a lot of money. But also they're in the
Speaker 3: one of the most highest positions they've probably ever been in.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, this was already an area of military
Speaker 1: contracting that people look to get into and get out of.
Speaker 1: I would say, like the bulk of these folks now
Speaker 1: will be the ones I've met. I've been Colombians. The
Speaker 1: Colombians provide a lot of military contractors around the world. Now,
Speaker 1: the people who are able to get out of it
Speaker 1: will do business in other areas, right Like they'll do
Speaker 1: other private close protection and stuff like that. There are
Speaker 1: protective details for journalists I know in who are operating
Speaker 1: in Iraq right now. Sure, yeah, these people will be
Speaker 1: making a lot of money, I think, especially like probably
Speaker 1: consulting right now with global shipping. I was reading about
Speaker 1: the East India Company this morning. I was learning, for instance,
Speaker 1: that the value of a t ship leave it in
Speaker 1: China was a billion dollars in twenty twenty four money,
Speaker 1: which is how like these private maritime security companies in
Speaker 1: another age were able to develop, right because it was
Speaker 1: worth boat jacking, that boat pirating, whatever that's called, because
Speaker 1: of the value of tea.
Speaker 2: At that time.
Speaker 1: So it's not a new problem. But there was a
Speaker 1: relatively short period of time in global trade history in
Speaker 1: which the state attempted to advance any form of hegemony
Speaker 1: over the high seas, and it is comple deletely retreated
Speaker 1: from that in the twenty first century. It will be
Speaker 1: very difficult for any state to try and regain that now, Like,
Speaker 1: I don't see even the United States doesn't really.
Speaker 2: Have the capacity to do that. Garrison looks ponderous.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I guess I'll cancel my TEAMU orders.
Speaker 1: They'll come someone someone right now is strapping a belt
Speaker 1: fed machine gun to a.
Speaker 2: Boat to make sure that you.
Speaker 1: Get your team orders. It is like, really kind of
Speaker 1: fucked that we're asking like people to run a mine field, right,
Speaker 1: Like an understand global train is not just TEAMU orders,
Speaker 1: but certainly a lot of stuff is consumed when the
Speaker 1: global and author doesn't need.
Speaker 2: To be consumed.
Speaker 1: And it is wild that right now the solution of
Speaker 1: the global shipping industry seems to be some of these
Speaker 1: people will die, but we will keep the oil moving
Speaker 1: and the treats moving. But that has been as I
Speaker 1: hope I've illustrated here, right, Like some people will die,
Speaker 1: but we will keep the treats moving. Has been pretty
Speaker 1: much status of the shipping industry for most of the
Speaker 1: twenty first century.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's this status of the entire world at this point. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: that is the capitalist logic, right. It's just it's like
Speaker 3: particularly I think, particularly naked here.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I highly recommend the Outlaw Ocean podcast if you're interested
Speaker 1: in learning more about this. I will link to some
Speaker 1: of the Jstore deep dive that I went on this
Speaker 1: morning if you are able to get past the jay
Speaker 1: Store paywall and would like to read that. I think
Speaker 1: that's about all we got. Anything else you want to
Speaker 1: say about boats Garrison.
Speaker 3: Now is the age of pirates.
Speaker 1: Yeah, our flag means a complete lack of accountability.
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