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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mob Never told You From how stupports

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

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Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline. And since it is Halloween's season when

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Speaker 1: we're recording this episode, we are honoring, celebrating the villainess. Yes,

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Speaker 1: the bad girl of pop culture and fairy tales and

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Speaker 1: comic books, the evil stepmother, the giant octopus with really

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Speaker 1: cool hair. Let's be honest, Ursula's hair is so on

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Speaker 1: trend right now. We've got to admit, though, or acknowledge

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Speaker 1: that Ursula was based on Divine, the drag queen. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: hence big beautiful Ursula with her big beautiful hair, No wonder,

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Speaker 1: she's so fabulous and evil true true, yes, um yeah.

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Speaker 1: The post that inspired this episode was over a tour

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Speaker 1: dot com and it was titled in Defense of Villainess

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Speaker 1: is basically arguing that lady villains do not get their

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Speaker 1: proper dues in pop culture. Sure they're brushed off, is

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Speaker 1: just mad, bitter, resentful old women, or they just aren't

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Speaker 1: as visible or as uh fleshed out yeah as male

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Speaker 1: villains are. And in fact, there was some villainous news

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Speaker 1: recently that kind of gets to the heart of the

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Speaker 1: marketing machine behind villains and maybe one reason why we

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Speaker 1: don't see more women villains. Yeah. So, when you search

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Speaker 1: for anything on the Google about lady villains, villainesses, whatever,

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Speaker 1: one of the only things that comes up on page

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Speaker 1: one is the fact that the original Iron Man three

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Speaker 1: villain was gender swapped right before production, and not in

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Speaker 1: a good way. If you've if you've seen the movie,

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Speaker 1: you know that the villain was supposed to be a

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Speaker 1: woman and ended up not being a woman anymore. Why

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Speaker 1: did they do that? Well, I'll tell you so. In

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Speaker 1: the original script, the plan was to have this lady villain,

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Speaker 1: but a memo came down to the filmmakers saying, nope,

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Speaker 1: don't do a lady villain. A female villain toy will

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Speaker 1: not sell as well. And that kind of blows my mind.

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Speaker 1: I maybe I'm naive, but I didn't realize that like

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Speaker 1: pre production, not even after the fact. It's one thing

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Speaker 1: to like market something differently, but I didn't realize that

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Speaker 1: the making of a film could be influenced by the

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Speaker 1: toy making machine. Oh yeah, it's all about that money, honey,

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Speaker 1: I know. And so director Shane Black was like, guys, guys,

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Speaker 1: guys calmed down. The president of Marvel Studios had nothing

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Speaker 1: to do with this, because everybody was like, are you serious,

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Speaker 1: and they were trying to find out who to blame, basically,

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Speaker 1: and he said that we had to change the entire

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Speaker 1: script because of toy making. It was the marketing machine,

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Speaker 1: it was the higher ups at the studio. It was

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Speaker 1: not the director or the head of Marvel. Well, I

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Speaker 1: wonder if that also has to do with them, Uh,

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Speaker 1: presuming that the audience for Iron Man is going to

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Speaker 1: skew mail, so maybe you'll have more boys who are

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Speaker 1: gonna be interested in buying Iron Man related toys compared

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Speaker 1: to girls. And the thinking goes that boys would be

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Speaker 1: less likely to buy a girl villain, sure, or that

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Speaker 1: parents would be less likely to buy it for their son. Yeah. Maybe,

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Speaker 1: But I would just think, like, and I'm maybe I'm projecting,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but I would just think that a

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Speaker 1: villain is a villain is a villain, and if it's

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Speaker 1: a woman like that just seems really fun too. I

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Speaker 1: imagine she has like dark lipstick and dark hair and

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Speaker 1: and cool accessories, and of see, I guess I am

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Speaker 1: a girl. Though we'll see that gets to what seems

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Speaker 1: to be the two categories of female villain that you

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Speaker 1: have in pop culture. Usually she's either kind of vampi

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Speaker 1: and a seductress, but also evil of course, she's like

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Speaker 1: an evil woman in that yellow song. Or she is

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Speaker 1: older and undesirable by virtue of her like lack of sexiness.

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Speaker 1: She's the anti seductress. She's the old hag with the apple,

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Speaker 1: the poison apple. Yeah. So, I mean it's still a

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Speaker 1: similar pattern that you see with female protagonists, where a

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Speaker 1: lot of times they are defined by their relation to

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Speaker 1: men and their sexual attractiveness. And with with films too,

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Speaker 1: cartoon or live action, you know, you have to provide

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Speaker 1: some degree of coding so that the audience sort of

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Speaker 1: knows what to expect from that character. And so making

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Speaker 1: her um, you know, a brunette, uh, you know she

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Speaker 1: maybe she's wearing all black and she's super sexy like

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Speaker 1: that codes as like the evil vamp villain, just the

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Speaker 1: same way that painting her as a witch an old

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Speaker 1: hag is like, oh, the signals to me that I

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Speaker 1: need to watch out for her and not trust her. Well,

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Speaker 1: and what you're describing, especially with the woman dressed in

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Speaker 1: all black, like a Donna Karen outfit from head to

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Speaker 1: toe is just reminding me of Angelica Houston and the witches.

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Speaker 1: Just watch that so flawless. She is that woman, she's

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Speaker 1: so stylish, she's stunning. And then of course, on the

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Speaker 1: inside she really is is this terrifying haggard witch who

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Speaker 1: looks like the Sanderson sisters, which I in hocus Pocus.

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Speaker 1: It's just watched hocus Pocus last night. Oh my gosh, Caroline,

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Speaker 1: I watched hocus Pocus this past weekend too. Okay, can

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Speaker 1: we talk cocus focus for a second for sure? And

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Speaker 1: this will listeners tie back into our conversation on villains,

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Speaker 1: because they are like the archetypal like evil Crone, and

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Speaker 1: they've got in that group of three sisters, they have

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Speaker 1: it all right. Oh yeah, they've got Bette Midler's kind

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Speaker 1: of she's not the old hag in terms of like

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Speaker 1: the snow white evil witch with a poison apple, but

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Speaker 1: she is still made to look with the buck teeth

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Speaker 1: that are yellow and the crazy red curly hair. She's

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Speaker 1: made to look a little more old and haggard compared

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Speaker 1: to her sister's right, and she's the most powerful too,

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Speaker 1: correct And then You've got Kathine and Jimmy who she's

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Speaker 1: They make her do this weird like crooked thing with

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Speaker 1: her mouth. Yeah, she kind of talk the side of

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Speaker 1: her mouth. They give her a speech impediment. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: she yeah, she is the dumber. Well she's dumber than

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Speaker 1: uh Winifred. But then you've got Sarah, Jessica Parker's Sarah

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Speaker 1: who she is the vamp. She's the skinny blonde with

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Speaker 1: the big boo is coming out over her dress, and

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Speaker 1: she is super air heavy and jumps around and claps

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Speaker 1: all the time and says a makamukamuck and she really

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Speaker 1: wants to make out with any male who enters their premises. Correct. Um. So,

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Speaker 1: I gotta tell you that I loved the Witches, the

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Speaker 1: Three Witches. Could have watched them all night long, but

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Speaker 1: I stopped watching hocus Pocus. Couldn't get through it. Y'all.

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Speaker 1: This was my first time. Wait, this weekend at thirty

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Speaker 1: one years old, this was my very first viewing of

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Speaker 1: hocus Pocus, and I couldn't finish it because that like

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Speaker 1: poor Man's Jonathan Taylor Thomas kid, it was just the

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Speaker 1: worst because it starts off with him just lusting after

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Speaker 1: like the girl who looks like a young Hillary Swank

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Speaker 1: and it's like weirdly like overtly sexual, and he doesn't

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Speaker 1: listen to anyone. And you know what, during the selection season,

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Speaker 1: when we've had a man who is not listen to

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Speaker 1: women mucking a lot of stuff up, I was like,

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Speaker 1: I can't do this. I can't watch you. So where

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Speaker 1: where did you stop? Uh? The Witches had come back

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Speaker 1: and I don't know, like, uh like fake j T

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Speaker 1: T had just done something else foolish, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: I can't thora Birch, You're perfect, all the witches, You're perfect,

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Speaker 1: even young Hilary Swank I think you have a horrible

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Speaker 1: taste in middle school boys, but didn't at all, um,

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Speaker 1: But I was like, why why does it have to

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Speaker 1: be centered around this kid? Um? Also, this is a

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Speaker 1: cautionary tale of waiting to watch children's movies when you

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Speaker 1: are a thirty one year old professional feminist. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: definitely have the benefit of the nostalgia factor having watched

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Speaker 1: it growing up, but it was funny watching it this

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Speaker 1: time around. I hadn't seen it in a couple of

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Speaker 1: years that I definitely was like, why why does it

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Speaker 1: have to center on this guy. Why can't it center

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Speaker 1: on Hillary Swank or yeah, who's perfect? Because by the

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Speaker 1: end of the movie, by the very end, which you

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Speaker 1: didn't get to, what's weird about it is that it

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Speaker 1: does feel like it is centered around her basically, Like

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Speaker 1: the ending shot is brother and sister like hugging or whatever.

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Speaker 1: But it's all about thora Birch saying goodbye to these

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Speaker 1: two characters, two of the characters in the movie. And

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be like, what this this just should

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Speaker 1: have been the movie. Let the two girls, who are

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Speaker 1: clearly smarter than this boy run the show well. And

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Speaker 1: getting back to our convo on villainess's villains, Uh, I

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Speaker 1: love that the Witches, the Sanderson's sisters are just purely

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Speaker 1: evil and have no qualms about it whatsoever. You know.

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Speaker 1: They there's that moment early in the film where they

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Speaker 1: get some some youthfulness back and are restored to their

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Speaker 1: their younger looking selves. Um, so you have like a

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Speaker 1: touch of uh, stereotypical like female vanity going on. But

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Speaker 1: then they're they're so powerful and terrifying and they love it.

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Speaker 1: And also I love that that midler Um despite her

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Speaker 1: extreme buck teeth and wild hair, I mean, she thinks

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Speaker 1: she looks phenomenal. I know they all do, and they're

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Speaker 1: they are, They're so wonderful. And I love how funny

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Speaker 1: that Middler is allowed to be in that movie. How

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Speaker 1: funny Winifred is allowed to be that she's not entirely

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Speaker 1: one dimensional. But let's talk about their fashion, because this

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Speaker 1: leads us into something that is pretty consistent across pop

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Speaker 1: cultural villains who happened to be women. So they've got

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Speaker 1: some good style. Yeah, so I love that the Sanderson

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Speaker 1: sisters they do have these like flowing gowns and capes. Um.

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Speaker 1: And you know you mentioned Angelica Houston in which is

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Speaker 1: she is fabulous with her lob, her long bob, her

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Speaker 1: you know, crazy good makeup. It was the eighties. Um,

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Speaker 1: and her she's got this tight off the shoulder black dress,

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Speaker 1: which when she turns into the ghoulish version of herself,

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Speaker 1: she's still wearing a gorgeous off the shoulder black dress.

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Speaker 1: I do love that that. Sarah Gailey over at tour

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Speaker 1: dot Com pointed this out, as did Lucy Hutchings when

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Speaker 1: she wrote about Villainess fashion for Vogue UK. What were

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Speaker 1: some of her favorites? So, I think one of the

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Speaker 1: main ones that is sited across all of these listical

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Speaker 1: sites has to be Maleficent, both the cartoon version and

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Speaker 1: Angelina Jolie's version of Maleficent. Of course, Maleficent is the

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Speaker 1: witchy evil villain from Sleeping Beauty. Yeah. She she has

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Speaker 1: that amazing headpiece. Yeah, she has that amazing headpiece. It's

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Speaker 1: so elegant, you know, for being like horn shaped and whatever.

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Speaker 1: Um and other villains with amazing accessories, like you've got

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Speaker 1: to think of l Driver's eyepatch. She's uh, Darryl Hannah

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Speaker 1: in Kill Bill Sarcy's queenly armor. So Sarcy finally, spoiler

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Speaker 1: Searcy in Game of Thrones finally gets to be on

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Speaker 1: the throne. Who knows how long she'll be there, but

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Speaker 1: to indicate that she has transitioned from just being like

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Speaker 1: run of the mill evil queen into like run of

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Speaker 1: the mill super evil, super powerful queen. She's wearing all

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Speaker 1: black with her an all black gown complete with like

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Speaker 1: super badass locking armor on her shoulders. Yeah, we'll never

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Speaker 1: remind me of when a couple of seasons back now

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Speaker 1: where Sanza is off with little Finger and I start

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Speaker 1: worrying that she's about to go to the dark side

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Speaker 1: because she starts wearing this intense black gown that has

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Speaker 1: uh those like feathers. Yeah, what way to go, wardrobe department.

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Speaker 1: But I mean those killer wardrobes. I mean they might

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Speaker 1: be wearing robes like Malifficent or o Riny she also

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Speaker 1: from kill Bill. They might have fabulous coats depending on

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Speaker 1: how you view For if you look at Cruella de

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Speaker 1: Ville or Miranda Priestley from Devilware's Products, she's kind of

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Speaker 1: the villain of that movie. Obviously that's not a comic

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Speaker 1: book movie or anything. Obviously she's supposed to be Anna Wintour, right,

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Speaker 1: so she must be well dressed. But she's a villain

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Speaker 1: for sure in that movie, and she has fabulous coats. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And one very common wardrobe choice, particularly when it comes

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Speaker 1: to comic book and superhero movies, is the cats suit.

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Speaker 1: And so not only obviously do you have Catwoman ring

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Speaker 1: the Cat's suit, even though one might argue that Catwoman

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Speaker 1: is really more of an anti hero than a villain.

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Speaker 1: Let's let's go back right Ghostbusters number one, Zul Right,

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Speaker 1: even though Zul is not technically a woman, Zul can

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Speaker 1: take whatever form here she wants. When Zul shows up

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Speaker 1: on top of Sigourney Weaver's building, Zula is dressed as

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Speaker 1: like the white version of Grace Jones basically. Anyway, You've

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Speaker 1: also got Nebula and Guardians of the Galaxy uh and

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Speaker 1: Harley Quinn not in the latest live action movie, but

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Speaker 1: in the comics she's wearing kind of like a joker

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Speaker 1: type cat suit. Well, and then there's also Poison Ivy,

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Speaker 1: who wears a cat suit made yes, but this is

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Speaker 1: this is what I'm getting at though, where we have

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Speaker 1: like the more mature woman who might be dressed all

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Speaker 1: in black. She might be chic, but she's probably not

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Speaker 1: outright sexy. And then you have the cat suit villains

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Speaker 1: who are very sexualized. I mean, they all like it

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Speaker 1: is fun to look at them, and I'm sure it's

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Speaker 1: fun to create them. They have fabulous crazy hair, like

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Speaker 1: their hair is allowed to be the Ursula swoop or

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Speaker 1: Zul's flat top. Or if you're going with like a

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Speaker 1: woman who is putting on femininity to describe to disguise

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Speaker 1: her evilness, you've got Amy from Gone Girl, who has

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Speaker 1: like the most perfect, fabulous, blonde, long, luscious hair ever

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Speaker 1: she puts on that luscious hair and then just like

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Speaker 1: Lego hair, just puts it on in the morning, bamboozle

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Speaker 1: has been affleck. That's right, And you know, tied in

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Speaker 1: with the whole like having fun with appearance thing is

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Speaker 1: the fact that a villain, like I was saying, a

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Speaker 1: villainess is allowed to look different. She's allowed to have

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Speaker 1: these different physical attributes than just like the perfect Disney princess,

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Speaker 1: well because she's loud. I mean, this reminds me of

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Speaker 1: our episode on Curly Hair, where a lot of times

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Speaker 1: you she coded. In movies, if you have sort of

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Speaker 1: a life montage where suddenly a female character kind of

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Speaker 1: like gets her act together, she's gonna go from having

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Speaker 1: curly hair to straight hair or vice versa. Like when

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Speaker 1: Um on Scandal, for instance, whenever we see Olivia Pope

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Speaker 1: um like kind of teetering on the edge of sanity,

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Speaker 1: or she is off on a deserted island like no longer. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Caroline is squinty, but they're fans of Scandal, know what

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about? Um When uh, when she's not her

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Speaker 1: put together Olivia Pope um self, she usually has curly hair. Interesting, see,

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Speaker 1: but it's coding. It's it's signaling to the audience that, like,

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Speaker 1: even if you're not literally thinking like, oh, she has

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Speaker 1: really curly hair hair versus straight and put together, Um,

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Speaker 1: it's still signaling to you that something is different because

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Speaker 1: it's all it all kind of boils down to what

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Speaker 1: we associate with acceptable femininity, which is modest. You're not

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Speaker 1: going to wear a bold red lip like Maleficent, You're

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Speaker 1: not going to wear a gaudy fur coat like Cruella.

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Speaker 1: And you could see this as both a pro and

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Speaker 1: a con, but you are also likelier with villains, female

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Speaker 1: villains in pop culture for her to not necessarily be

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Speaker 1: white in the same way as so many female protagonists are. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: so yes, that like virginal white femininity that is like

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Speaker 1: the crux of so many protagonists in these like fairy

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Speaker 1: tales or in these comic book stories, just the same

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Speaker 1: way that the villainess is coated as evil or crazy

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Speaker 1: by the way her hair is or her makeup or

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Speaker 1: her clothes. You know, the protagonist, the fairy tale heroine

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Speaker 1: is so often just like a traditional feminine that we

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Speaker 1: think of, the traditional white feminine that we think of. Um,

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Speaker 1: but you can have plenty of different types of villains

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Speaker 1: in comic book movies. In fairy Tales, You've got Verett

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Speaker 1: din a k A Fatality, She's a comic book villain.

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Speaker 1: With d C Comics. You've also got zen Z. She's

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Speaker 1: a new villain actually for the twenty six Team Black

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Speaker 1: Panther comic series by Tana Hassi Coates. Um. And if

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Speaker 1: you move out of the comic book realm too, I mean,

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Speaker 1: just look at kill bill by itself. You've got Go

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Speaker 1: Go you bari O, Rainy, She and Vernita Green all

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Speaker 1: trying to kill Uma Thurman's character. Or if you go

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Speaker 1: to Batman, you have my favorite villain of all. Who

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Speaker 1: is Catwoman played by earth A Kit. Oh yeah, She's perfect.

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Speaker 1: And then you later have Holly Berries Catwoman. And I

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Speaker 1: mean earlier you described like the quote unquote like traditional

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Speaker 1: white femininity. Um. I don't know if it's so much

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Speaker 1: traditional as it is racist ultimately. Oh, I mean yes,

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Speaker 1: and I mean traditional in terms of how that protagonist

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Speaker 1: is shown on screen. Right, Um, because I I feel like,

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Speaker 1: with with exceptions obviously two things like Zenz and Black

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Speaker 1: Panther and and some of these other characters. Um. But

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Speaker 1: to me, the the chance that these villains have differently

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Speaker 1: colored skin. Let's say, um does say a lot about

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Speaker 1: how we perceive women of color because also consider how

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Speaker 1: um Black women in particular historically have been so framed

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Speaker 1: as Jezebels and sirens and seductresses. And I would imagine

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Speaker 1: that there is that that that feed into some of these,

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Speaker 1: especially older school villains. Yeah, that no wonder, it's more

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Speaker 1: acceptable to have women of color of some sort, right

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Speaker 1: because they're already deviant by virtue of them not being white,

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Speaker 1: right exactly. And I think that ties into the next

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Speaker 1: point of why it is so common slash acceptable to

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Speaker 1: have a villain who plays on the whole vamp tripe,

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Speaker 1: who is that sexy, made up, you know, busty evil woman,

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Speaker 1: because even if she's playing on her sexuality and toying

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Speaker 1: with men and taking advantage, it's like, you can't you

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Speaker 1: can't hate her for it. That's her power because she's evil.

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Speaker 1: So it's okay for a woman to display outright sexuality

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Speaker 1: if she's evil and will be defeated in the end. Well,

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Speaker 1: and then by by that logic, then doesn't that mean

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Speaker 1: that a woman doesn't that suggest then that a woman

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Speaker 1: who is open with her sexuality and wields it in

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Speaker 1: such a way that that is the evil thing about

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Speaker 1: her exactly. Yeah, I know. And and some of my

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Speaker 1: favorite villain essa's do do this. I mean, but it's

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Speaker 1: an old trope. Oh yeah, I'm so easy to rely on.

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Speaker 1: Like okay. So one of my favorites is uh in

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite movies to watch around Halloween, which

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Speaker 1: is The Sleepy Hollow with Johnny Depp. Love it, love it.

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Speaker 1: It's one of my favorite movies. And Miranda Richardson's Lady

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Speaker 1: van Tassel uh in that movie is so freaking brilliant.

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Speaker 1: She gets to be beautiful, she gets to be glamorous, right.

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Speaker 1: She wears these big gowns even when she's mid like

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Speaker 1: crazy evil woman and her hair's coming out of her

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Speaker 1: up to she still looks like so fabulous and glamorous

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Speaker 1: when she's totally losing touch with reality. Um and in

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Speaker 1: all of this evil stuff she's doing and controlling the

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Speaker 1: headless Horseman, the way that she picks her victims and

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Speaker 1: seduces them and everything, like she tempts them with her

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Speaker 1: sexuality and her beauty, and it's so she's such a

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Speaker 1: fun villain to watch. This is also reminding me of

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Speaker 1: a movie I was watching last night. Also for the

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Speaker 1: first time, y'all, I've really been trying to catch up

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Speaker 1: on pop culture from like way back. I was watching

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Speaker 1: Casino and Sharon Stone, who plays Robert De Niro's wife

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Speaker 1: hustler turned wife, is such an embodiment of the Vampi

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Speaker 1: villain because you know from the first moment you see

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Speaker 1: her on screen that she is going to be his downfall,

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Speaker 1: because she is so captivating in her whole presentation. Of

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Speaker 1: course she's gorgeous, but also in how they outfit her

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Speaker 1: as just this very glamorous but ultimately money hungry and

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Speaker 1: self destructive um like Vegas queen. Well, yeah, because how

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Speaker 1: could beauty and sexuality coexist with a woman who doesn't

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Speaker 1: implode beauty, sexuality, and ambition. I mean, granted her ambition

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Speaker 1: was just to be like obnoxiously wealthy, but nonetheless, as

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Speaker 1: we're gonna get into that, I mean a lot of

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Speaker 1: these villains are ambitious, yeah, you know, not to be

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Speaker 1: a villain apologist. They leaned in, They really did, Ursula

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Speaker 1: who leans in. Part of the Ursula come just stealing

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Speaker 1: people's voices. She's got pet eels. Um. Yeah, So this

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Speaker 1: whole beauty thing in femininity is something that Shannon Austin's

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Speaker 1: wrote about in Batman's Female Foes, which appeared in the

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Speaker 1: Journal of Popular Culture back in April, and she quotes

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Speaker 1: author Mary J. Russo talking about how often in these

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Speaker 1: stories where the woman and villain is powerful and also beautiful,

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Speaker 1: that she uses her femininity as a mask and to

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Speaker 1: put on femininity with a vengeance, she writes, suggests the

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Speaker 1: power of taking it off and purposely disguising themselves in

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Speaker 1: this way and acting feminine to gain certain ends. Thus

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Speaker 1: allows them more power because they can remove this mask

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Speaker 1: at times convenient for them, revealing the so called monsters underneath.

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Speaker 1: And I you know, I'd love to talk with you

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Speaker 1: more about this and get your opinion, but to me,

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Speaker 1: it just reminded me of every time on the internet

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Speaker 1: a man criticized as a woman for wearing makeup. Uh.

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Speaker 1: But but you know, I mean, quite literally, that's what

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Speaker 1: Angelica Houston's which villain does, and which is she puts

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Speaker 1: on the mask of a beautiful, statuesque, distinguished, fashionable woman

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Speaker 1: and then takes it off and she's the haggard, disgusting,

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Speaker 1: which monster underneath? Right, which I mean talking about rude

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Speaker 1: dudes on the internet that that reminds me of uh,

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Speaker 1: the whole thing of makeup being deceptive. Correct. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And you know, a villain, no matter male, female, old, young, whatever,

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Speaker 1: deceit is probably part of that part of the storyline

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Speaker 1: is that you need to deceive the hero or the heroine.

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Speaker 1: And so in this way that Austin and Russo are

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Speaker 1: talking about, femininity is like a super dangerous disguise because

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Speaker 1: look at poison ivy. You know, she's beautiful, you know,

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Speaker 1: and she'll tempt you with that beauty, and then her

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Speaker 1: kisses are fatal. She will kiss you and it will

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Speaker 1: kill you. Yeah. I am highly allergic to poison ivy.

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Speaker 1: I can look at that stuff. Oh god, I had to, like,

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Speaker 1: I got it so bad a couple of years ago.

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Speaker 1: I had to take steroids for it, and I just

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Speaker 1: lost my freaking mind. I was rage crying all the time.

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Speaker 1: So I don't take steroids anymore. But anyway, and we

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Speaker 1: also do not need to go around kissing Uma Thurman apparently, Yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: don't do that. But if we look at how a

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Speaker 1: lot of times, especially with more traditional fairy tales like

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Speaker 1: Grimm's fairy tales and a lot of the Disney princess

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Speaker 1: plot lines, you have these villains who are older, and

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Speaker 1: there there's like this Catch twenty two of those kinds

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Speaker 1: of fairy tales obviously rewarding feminine youth, fertility, and beauty,

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Speaker 1: but at the same time maligning these older women who

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Speaker 1: have lost that and who are trying doing everything that

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Speaker 1: they can to get it back because they realize that

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Speaker 1: that's the only way that society will value them. And

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Speaker 1: so we're like shaking a finger at them, but at

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Speaker 1: the same time, we are upholding the very thing that

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Speaker 1: is allegedly making them evil. Yeah, oh yeah, I know.

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Speaker 1: And and we're so scared. We're so scared of elderly women,

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Speaker 1: especially if they are elderly and alone. It would be

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Speaker 1: one thing if it was an old woman and she's married,

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Speaker 1: because then she's she's just a great mother. She's gonna

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Speaker 1: make cookies, you know, That's how she would be characterized.

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Speaker 1: And in a story, she would not be the villain

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Speaker 1: if she were married or paired with a man in

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Speaker 1: some sort. And there was this great NPR article that

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Speaker 1: talked to a couple of academics and folklorists about the

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Speaker 1: appearance and the presence of these older women in folk tales.

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Speaker 1: And they talked to Ivory Coast writer Veroniq Tajo, who

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Speaker 1: said that the old witch who destroys people's souls is

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Speaker 1: a super common African folklore figure. And she says she's

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Speaker 1: usually a solitary woman. She's already marginal, she's angry at something,

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Speaker 1: at life or whatever, and she will eat people's souls

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Speaker 1: in the sense that she's going to possess people and

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Speaker 1: then they die a terrible death. There's something scary about

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Speaker 1: a woman who does not possess that youth and that

422
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: beauty um and that traditional femininity, and who's also alone, like,

423
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: oh my god, where did all the norms go? And

424
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 1: she's like a net. You know. If we if we

425
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 1: have to deal with her, if we have to hear

426
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: her complain about anything, we don't like it. And it's

427
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 1: certainly not unique to African folklore. I mean, if we

428
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: look more at like Western history and some of the

429
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: mythology that we've built up around say cat ladies and Salem,

430
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: which trials and um. Also if we go even farther

431
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: back to medieval times when old women living by themselves

432
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: were so reviled um that if they were found to

433
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 1: be complaining too much and too loudly, they could be

434
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: punished by having to wear what was called a scolds bridle,

435
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: which was literally like a muzzle that they would have

436
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: to wear to shut them up. Yeah, people didn't want

437
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: to see or hear elderly women on their own. Gosh, like,

438
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 1: we don't want the burden. So children are to be

439
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 1: seen and not heard. Old ladies, we don't want to

440
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: hear from you. When when can we talk? That's why

441
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: we have a podcast. I guess I think we're in

442
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: that sweet spot of people still allowing us to talk. Yeah, yeah,

443
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: we're still We're still fertile as far as we know,

444
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: so we can keep making podcasts. Oh thank god. Well.

445
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: Harvard Folklore and Mythology professor Maria Tatar could be Tater

446
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: tater Tott, Maria Tater Todt, Maria tator Tot. I like that. Um,

447
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Uh. She talks about how the powerful old

448
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: witch woman in mythology is the one who can work

449
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: magic and transform. In other words, hello, what have we

450
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,719
Speaker 1: just been talking about? In other words, she can exert

451
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: power and deceive and there's like nothing worse than an

452
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: old woman deceiving you with something. It's why people get

453
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: so upset when women wear makeup. It's why, you know,

454
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 1: people criticize older women for getting plastic surgery that's visible.

455
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: It's like, what are you trying to do? Are you

456
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: trying to deceive us about how old you are? You

457
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: should go live in a hut in the woods and

458
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: big children are You're trying to avoid being rendered invisible

459
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 1: by our sexist and ageist society. How dare you? What

460
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 1: are you thinking? Um? And you know, Uh, this Harvard

461
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 1: professor points out something that I hadn't even thought about,

462
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 1: which is the transformation sequence that's in some of these

463
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: Disney movies that we've talked about. She says, I always

464
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: looked at the Disney film Snow White and that charismatic

465
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: wicked queen who's down in the cellar with her chemistry set.

466
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 1: There's a sequence in which she turns from a beautiful, charismatic,

467
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 1: wicked queen into an old hag. And then, of course,

468
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 1: she points out, I think there's a scene that's probably

469
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: more frightening for adults than children because it compresses the

470
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: aging process. And about twenty seconds, um, but it also

471
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 1: reminded me of the scene and Game of Thrones from

472
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: Melissandra takes off her magic necklace at the end of

473
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 1: the night and transforms from this beautiful, seductive, redheaded witch

474
00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: into this ancient old woman who's hunched ough her and

475
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: sagging and her hair is falling out. And I mean,

476
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: I like, hello, trophy trope, trop nous of displaying just

477
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: how powerful and evil someone is by how they deceive

478
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: you with their appearance and their femininity, right, because if

479
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: she weren't disguised as that sexy witch and just looked

480
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 1: like an old crone, no one would listen to her, right.

481
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: But but there are really fun ways that these villains

482
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: get to flout a lot of feminine conventions, and we're

483
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: going to get into that when we come right back

484
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 1: from a quick break, now, Caroline, as soon as I

485
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: said feminine convention, I felt like I should distinguish that

486
00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: from the witch convention in The Witches starring in Delica, Houston,

487
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 1: which is sort of a feminine convention if you think

488
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, yeah, totally feminine convention. Not feminine norms

489
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 1: per se, but definitely a feminine convention. They do eat

490
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: children or no, they turn them into mice. They don't

491
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,479
Speaker 1: eat them. Yeah, yeah, so that's fine. Um, but I

492
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: do think it's fun. I mean, you know, I think

493
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: it's fun to look at villains and talk about them

494
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: because they do flout so many conventions. And we've already

495
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: talked about, you know, the stereotypical image. You know that

496
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 1: they flout traditional femininity as it's as it tends to

497
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: be presented to us on screen. Um. But because of

498
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: a lot of that flouting, all of this flouting going on,

499
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: they can make a lot of people nervous too well.

500
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons behind that, some people have

501
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: suggested is because I r L outside of Grimm's fairytale land,

502
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: we don't really understand female monality all of that much.

503
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 1: It's it's still kind of hard for us to wrap

504
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: our heads around it. Yeah, there's a lot of assumptions.

505
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 1: And this is coming from Brenda Russell, who write Perceptions

506
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: of female offenders. According to Russell's research and the research

507
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: of others, we do tend to think a female criminals

508
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: as an anomaly, like it's weird, something must have happened,

509
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 1: and we tend to view them either as victims who

510
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: were acting in self defense, or they were under the

511
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: control of others, like oh, well, she must have been

512
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 1: like one of Manson's women. She must have been told

513
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: what to do and duped into being so evil and unnurturing.

514
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: Or they are crazy, criminal deviance whose actions strayed from

515
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: typically female behavior, like she does have to be some

516
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: comic book superhero villain, Like I can't imagine a woman

517
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: who's like a run of the mill CLUPTI mediac basically

518
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: your run of the mill, average, every day clup top.

519
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 1: She's just got sticky thing yours is just one own

520
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: a writer. I love wayn I love you. Um. But

521
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: then of course there's a thing Kristen that you mentioned

522
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 1: earlier which is tied into this as well, that like, ah,

523
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: none of this is normal for a woman to do,

524
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 1: to be a criminal, But when it comes to women

525
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: of color who commit crimes, we tend to be less

526
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: sympathetic because it's like, oh, well, no, she's that's just

527
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,760
Speaker 1: to be expected from a black woman, because they're unchased

528
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: and untrustworthy. Yeah, there's there's a lot of it's a

529
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 1: hot mess, really when you start unpacking. Yeah, views of

530
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 1: what women are capable of or not capable of are

531
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: so inextricably tied up with issues of race and class

532
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 1: as well, and speaking to that, for listeners who want

533
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:54,800
Speaker 1: to learn more, we did a whole episode on Kleptomania UM,

534
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: which speak a lot to race and class. So definitely

535
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 1: go back in our massive archive and dig that one

536
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 1: up because it's a good episode. But of course too,

537
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: you have a lot of female villains who symbolize what

538
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: we repress, and that immediately makes me think of Carrie's mom. Yeah,

539
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 1: what dirty pillows? Yes, your your breasts or dirty pillows,

540
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 1: and she's terrified of Carrie getting her period because that

541
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: means that she's send sexually mature fears about female sexuality. Yeah,

542
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 1: I mean is that really like at the heart of

543
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: female villain e is sex panic? It's I mean it,

544
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 1: it seems like it. And well, and the thing about

545
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: that too is like, Okay, let's think back to older,

546
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: older tropes, fairy tales, folklore, and you've either got that

547
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,760
Speaker 1: temptress villain, which type lady, or you've got the old hag.

548
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: And the more the stories are repeated, the more they've

549
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 1: become deeply ingrained into our collective subconscious basically, and so

550
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,359
Speaker 1: when we I say we like, I'm a screenwriter. When

551
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: we create new stories, what are we doing but reaching

552
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 1: back into what we think of in terms of what

553
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 1: a female villain looks like, and frequently that goes all

554
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: the way back to sexy witches basically, or I would

555
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 1: argue that it goes all the way back to the

556
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:29,399
Speaker 1: Garden of Eden. Oh snap and Eve original sin. Yeah,

557
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,320
Speaker 1: it might seem like a stretch to call Eve a villain,

558
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 1: Now it totally works. Yeah, I mean she's she is, uh,

559
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: you know, lured into this by the snake Satan in

560
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 1: the form of the snake. But nonetheless she deceives Adam. Yeah,

561
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: you've got deceit, You've got a naked lady, you've got

562
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,720
Speaker 1: long hair, don't care. And we know what some dirty

563
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: pillows because you know they weren't wearing clothes. Well, you

564
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: know what Hippocrates thought of long hair, that it was

565
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 1: full of semen. That's right, That is a fact. That

566
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: is a fact. Listeners, Yeah, that goes back to a

567
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,839
Speaker 1: couple episodes now that we've done. We just love talking

568
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: about Hippocrates and hair. It's my favorite Hippocrates fact for sure.

569
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: But in terms of repression, Shilah Fair facts over at

570
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 1: Current Vlog in June cited film theorist Robin Wood and

571
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 1: looking at horror cinemas in particular, quote Return of the

572
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:27,319
Speaker 1: Repressed Tool. Uh. Wood said that monsters are manifestations of

573
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 1: our tendency to enforce surplus repression within our communities, ensuring

574
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 1: we're all monogamus, heterosexual, bourgeois, patriarchal capitalist. Alright, so translate

575
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: please um. Basically, as Wood explains in this theory, women

576
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 1: are a counterpoint to male domination. They are therefore a

577
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 1: threat to patriarchal society. And so men project their repressed femininity,

578
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: which they hate because it's not powerful and it goes

579
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: against patriarchal ructure. They project all of that onto women.

580
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: And when a woman rises up in power, so when

581
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:13,800
Speaker 1: that femininity returns to face them, uh, that female character

582
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 1: is clearly a monster who must be subdued. And so

583
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: when you look at all of this horror film stuff,

584
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 1: a female villain then is often the horror trope combo

585
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 1: of the return of the Repressed tool, female victimization and

586
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 1: punishing women who attempt to assume power, and the whole

587
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 1: female victimization thing. It's because so often with these bad girls,

588
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:48,720
Speaker 1: these female villains, her motivation is so often revenge, Yeah,

589
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 1: I mean, and revenge for social rejections sometimes. I mean,

590
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 1: you do have in the Judy Garland Wizard of Oz,

591
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: for instance, you you do have the Wicked Witch of

592
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 1: the West who goes after her because she thinks that

593
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 1: um Dorothy has killed her sister. So that makes sense

594
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,240
Speaker 1: she she wants to avenge your sister's death. But as

595
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: Elena doctor men Over at Time Magazine pointed out not

596
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:21,320
Speaker 1: too long ago, one thing that a lot of female

597
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: Disney villains have in common is revenge for just straight

598
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 1: up social rejection. So I didn't realize that Ursula gets

599
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 1: mad at the beginning and targets Ariel because she sees

600
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 1: Ariel leaving for a party and she's just bummed out

601
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 1: that she's no longer invited to those kinds of events.

602
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:46,399
Speaker 1: I didn't remember that at all. Similarly, Cinderella, you have

603
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 1: the evil stepmother and stepsisters who are terrified that old

604
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 1: Cindy is gonna outshine them at the party. Um in

605
00:39:54,440 --> 00:40:00,479
Speaker 1: the animated Sleeping Beauty, Maleficent is upset that he wasn't

606
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 1: invited to Aurora's christening. Oh right, well, but in the

607
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 1: live action Malefic sent with Angelina Jolie. Her backstory is

608
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 1: that she got her heartbroken by some man and now,

609
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,439
Speaker 1: like anyone who experiences love or whatever is just too

610
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 1: gross and she's got to hurt them or whatever. Yeah,

611
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 1: that was a disappointing choice. Yeah, I mean, think of

612
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 1: all of the crazy, weird baxsters. You're literally recreating a

613
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 1: fairy tale in whatever way you want, and like that's

614
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 1: what you go go for. Well, and a document points

615
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: out that, meanwhile, you have male villains who tend to

616
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 1: be allowed in the Disney cannon, tend to be more

617
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 1: allowed to just be like evil for the sake of

618
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: wanting to cement power. So with scar in the Lion

619
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 1: King and Jaffar in Aladdin, they just want to be king.

620
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: Yeah that's also a song. I will not sing it.

621
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 1: Oh come on on, um. But for some of the

622
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 1: same reasons that these female villains in these tropes make

623
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 1: people nervous, whether it's in real life according to researchers,

624
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 1: or just whether she's scaring people in the film. Uh,

625
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: there's plenty of reasons to like her. Oh yeah, she's fun,

626
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 1: she's fierce, she wears a bold lip. Oh yeah, no,

627
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:26,760
Speaker 1: seriously love it. Uh. She's unapologetically power hungry. She doesn't

628
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 1: have to just be spunky and rely on the hero

629
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,320
Speaker 1: to get her where she needs to be. She tends

630
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 1: to be brilliant, if not a mad scientist type. She's unpredictable,

631
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 1: she's independent. Her storyline, her reason for being, doesn't have

632
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 1: to rely or revolve around a man. It can have

633
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: something totally different. I mean, frequently it does involve a

634
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 1: man to some extent, but it doesn't have to well

635
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: with a lot of the social rejection lines though. It's

636
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 1: more anger over competition with other women, which is also

637
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,839
Speaker 1: an interesting twist to consider. Yeah, and typically the thing

638
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: with these lady villains, whether it's live action, cartoon, folklore, whatever,

639
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,319
Speaker 1: she's typically not afraid to go after what she wants

640
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: at any cost. Typically that involves killing someone. Yeah. Granted

641
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:23,280
Speaker 1: her motives are questionable, sure, but these women are often ambitious. Yeah.

642
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 1: So someone who maybe is not a villain, but it's

643
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,920
Speaker 1: a fabulous anti hero who I think encapsulates a lot

644
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 1: of what we're talking about is Sigourney Weaver's character and

645
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 1: working girl, right, super ambitious, deceitful, beautiful. Uh, you know, Petty,

646
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 1: She's like all of these complicated things wrapped up in

647
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 1: a shoulder padded businesswoman package. Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. Yeah.

648
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 1: I mean all of the villains that we've cited by

649
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:59,240
Speaker 1: name all have that massive internal drive. You know. Nebula

650
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 1: is gonna can kill, Serc's gonna kill, Zula is gonna kill,

651
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 1: They're all gonna kill. Cruella is gonna kill puppies. Like,

652
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 1: all of these women are driven to accomplish something, and

653
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 1: usually it's killing, killing in order to get something that

654
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 1: they want. And some times though, they will team up

655
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 1: with other women. Yeah. Okay, So this goes back to

656
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 1: that Shannon Austin Batman paper that we sided earlier. She

657
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 1: talks a lot and I didn't realize there was this

658
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:33,280
Speaker 1: much to talk about. Austin proved me wrong. She talks

659
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 1: a lot about the relationship between Harley Quinn and Poison IVY,

660
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,280
Speaker 1: and I was not aware of this. I basically only

661
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,760
Speaker 1: know anything about Batman from what I've seen in the movies,

662
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 1: the live action movies. Mind's more Adam West base, so

663
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:53,320
Speaker 1: you're probably even more accurate. I don't know about that, um.

664
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 1: But so Harley Quinn, who it is worth noting her

665
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 1: entire character. Her persona is in reaction to a man.

666
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:04,839
Speaker 1: So she meets and sort of falls in love with

667
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 1: the Joker, and he manipulates her into becoming this villain

668
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 1: for him or with him. Um. But anytime she starts

669
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: to act up and try to kill someone on her own,

670
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 1: he basically smacks her down and he's like, no, I

671
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,280
Speaker 1: want to do that. You don't get to make decisions

672
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: about murder. You don't get to kill people for me. Yeah,

673
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 1: And so you know, there's all of this stuff that's

674
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 1: lady villains and batman in reaction two men. But at

675
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 1: one point Harley Quinn is almost killed, but Poison IVY

676
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 1: saves her. Poison Ivy, the woman with lethal kisses who's

677
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:43,799
Speaker 1: dressed in Poison Ivy, which sounds terrible. Um. And as

678
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 1: Austin points out, it's these women's closeness that gives her

679
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 1: her strength back, not the stereotypical like cattiness and fighting

680
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 1: that makes them weaker. And so she says that the

681
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 1: cements the almost terrifying idea that while a woman with

682
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:04,399
Speaker 1: hour is dangerous, women helping women achieve power is an

683
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 1: even more serious threat. Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn are

684
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 1: always running around together, helping each other even when they're

685
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 1: in a fight. Well, and talking about Harley Quinn of

686
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,839
Speaker 1: course makes me think of Suicide Squad, which I did

687
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 1: not see, because I'll never be able to get those

688
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 1: two hours of my life back if I do. But

689
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 1: the one bright spot critics said in the movie is

690
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 1: Harley Quinn, and she might get her own spin off movie, etcetera.

691
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 1: So I am curious from listeners who are in the

692
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 1: know what they think about her portrayal in that film,

693
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 1: because more broadly, I would be curious, um to see

694
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 1: whether and how the dynamics and motivations of female villains

695
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 1: changes it all in more ensemble roles where they are

696
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 1: usually the only female villain in the room, surrounded by

697
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 1: their their dude villain friends, um, or they might be

698
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 1: one of two. But I'm just curious from from listeners

699
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 1: if that changes changes things at all, or if they're

700
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 1: still just kind of the same but hanging out with

701
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 1: batty friends. Yeah. And you know, we've talked a lot

702
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 1: about ambition and female power and the fears around it,

703
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:25,720
Speaker 1: and Sarah Gailey over at Tour wrote that the dividing

704
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 1: line between a protagonist and a villainous typically ends up

705
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 1: that the villainous actually gets what she's been working for,

706
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 1: meaning power. And you know, still, what we've been talking

707
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: about is that what makes the villainous a villainous is

708
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: that she's still striving for more. She's still striving for

709
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: more power UM typically over the protagonist or the heroine,

710
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,840
Speaker 1: and Gailey writes, somewhere in there, they stopped caring about

711
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:58,320
Speaker 1: what other people think, and they get what they want,

712
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 1: and they hearn it into cautionary tales. Something bad is

713
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,760
Speaker 1: waiting for the woman who goes that way. We believe

714
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: it and we repeat it. I mean, we're basically trained

715
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:13,799
Speaker 1: through everything from folk tales to being read stories as

716
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 1: we're growing up, to watching movies now as grown ups

717
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:19,760
Speaker 1: trying to catch up on nineties pop culture, we're told

718
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 1: that women with power are to be we're to be

719
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 1: suspicious of them well, and that up until recently, I

720
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: do think the narrative is changing um, in part because

721
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: of major successes like Frozen Um, But for so long,

722
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 1: the underlying message was that really the only honorable aim

723
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 1: for a woman would be to find her prince charming. Yes,

724
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:51,839
Speaker 1: to be quiet and sweet and modestly dressed. And wait

725
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:53,760
Speaker 1: for the hero to come save you in the tower,

726
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 1: be the damsel in distress rather than doing it for yourself,

727
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 1: like Maleficent with a head dress. That's right. I wonder

728
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 1: if I could start wearing a headdress. Listen, you can

729
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: the only thing stopping you it was getting getting a

730
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 1: head dress. You're right. Maybe I could just get like

731
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 1: a fascinator, you know, maybe you know Holly from stuff

732
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 1: you miss in history class can hook you up. I know,

733
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 1: but I just always wear a T shirt and jeans.

734
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 1: Would it be weird? Maybe if it's maybe like your flair,

735
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 1: you know, you're like how pick up artists are encouraged

736
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 1: to always like wear something that will spark conversation, So

737
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: years can be a fascinator. I think I have killed

738
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,879
Speaker 1: this idea for you now. Yeah, also my soul. That's fine.

739
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 1: I'm turning into a villainous as we speak. But because

740
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 1: of all of these rich layers and convention defiance that

741
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 1: these villainesses tend to exhibit, a lot of people are

742
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 1: calling for more of them and more fleshed out, more

743
00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:00,840
Speaker 1: interesting female villains like give us small are Yeah, I know,

744
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 1: I mean I feel like we typically have been so

745
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 1: starved for women who don't fall into stereotypical save the

746
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:11,440
Speaker 1: damsel in distress categories, that, of course we would be

747
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: excited to see women in these crazy villainess roles. I mean,

748
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 1: I would argue that, like, maybe we should just get

749
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 1: more three dimensional women characters in general, rather than having

750
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 1: them need to be amazing amy from Gone Girl. Well,

751
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 1: and one thing we haven't mentioned that we absolutely need

752
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:38,240
Speaker 1: to highlight is how, arguably nowhere else in mainstream cinema

753
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 1: big screen, small screen do you so reliably see any

754
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:48,799
Speaker 1: sort of body diversity like you do with villainess is now.

755
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 1: Of course, if they are the more sexualized cat suit

756
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 1: wearing ones, they're gonna look, you know, like supermodels are

757
00:49:56,600 --> 00:50:00,840
Speaker 1: gonna look like halle Berry. But when you think about

758
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 1: the Sanderson sisters and Ursula, you know you do have

759
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 1: fuller figured women in there now. Of course, it also

760
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:12,359
Speaker 1: says something about the fact that they are deviating from

761
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:16,239
Speaker 1: you know, that uh thin ideal, and that also says

762
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 1: a lot about our fat phobic society for sure. But

763
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 1: that's also a convincing argument to see more of them

764
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 1: and to also have them be more three dimensional. Yes, yes,

765
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 1: because as we've clearly been talking about even though the

766
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,760
Speaker 1: Sanderson's sisters are villains and they're evil, we love them.

767
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 1: I love those women even though you know all your

768
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:45,800
Speaker 1: faiths are problematic. Um. And Kelsey McKenny over at vox says, yeah. Maybe. Um.

769
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 1: She argues that yes, male villains have tended to get

770
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 1: the juicier, more complex roles with fleshed out backstories and

771
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 1: rich motivations. Um. Possibly, she says, because we love the

772
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 1: bad boys. We love complicated, difficult, evil genius men. Uh.

773
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 1: She does point out by the way that whole entire

774
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 1: books have been dedicated to pop cultures difficult men. I

775
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:12,360
Speaker 1: feel like there's one that has Tony soprano in the title. Well,

776
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,880
Speaker 1: you do have the whole Wicked series and how incredibly

777
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:18,919
Speaker 1: successful that's been. That's true, which is all focused on

778
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 1: the witches. Um yeah and she uh. McKenney goes back

779
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 1: through our pop culture villainous history and says that, yeah,

780
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:31,359
Speaker 1: I mean they're great in their fabulous Um, but they

781
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,880
Speaker 1: have tended to be, like Maleficent, a little bit flatter. U.

782
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 1: They tend to be used as plot devices. Um. Like,

783
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 1: she says, the original Maleficent and um, the Wicked Witch

784
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 1: of the West, who yes, she has the motivation to

785
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 1: avenge her sister's death, but is really just kind of

786
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 1: shrieking and vengeful on screen before she melts um Or,

787
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 1: she points out Nurse Ratchet in one floor of the

788
00:51:56,120 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 1: cucoos Nest, who's evil but she has no real backstory. Hey, also,

789
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 1: I had totally forgotten even though I've read the book

790
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 1: and seen the film. In One flu Or the Cuckoo's Nest,

791
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 1: Nurse Ratchett ends up getting hers at the end in

792
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 1: the most horrifying way. Like, yes, she is pure evil

793
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 1: and she treats patients in this psychiatric word, terribly. Um,

794
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 1: but her come upance is like very close to sexual assault.

795
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:32,760
Speaker 1: So towards the end of the film, Randall, who's played

796
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:36,400
Speaker 1: by Jack Nicholson, um ends up getting in a brawl

797
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 1: with Nurse Ratchett and he rips her uniform and I

798
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 1: can't remember if it's like more graphic in the book,

799
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 1: but he yeah, like tears her clothes off, and it's

800
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 1: just it's very violent. And while okay, she's she's horrible. Um,

801
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 1: female villains having their come up and spa sexual violence

802
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 1: is not cool Like that that says a lot about

803
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 1: just like an outright hatred for women across the board.

804
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 1: But I mean, I think that that ties in and

805
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 1: meshes perfectly with all of those theories about femininity and

806
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 1: sexuality being deceitful and a disguise used to tempt the

807
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 1: helpless pure man. Well and and Nurse Ratchet is such

808
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 1: the opposite of the stereotypical like nurturing perhaps kind of

809
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 1: sexy nurse. And also the fight between them is precipitated

810
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:44,799
Speaker 1: by Randall, like sneaking to women into the hospital. Um.

811
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,399
Speaker 1: So anyway, I had I had kind of blocked that out,

812
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 1: I think until I started reading for this episode, because

813
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 1: at first I was like, oh, yeah, Nurse Ratchet, she's awful,

814
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 1: and then I was like, oh wait, but then then

815
00:53:56,480 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 1: at the end things get very very uncomfortable and not okay. Yeah,

816
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 1: And I mean, I I think, you know, a lot

817
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:07,280
Speaker 1: of what you were talking about with body representation and

818
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 1: you know, just having women who look different and speak

819
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 1: differently and act differently than the traditional heroin on screen.

820
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 1: I think a lot of that goes to just under

821
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:22,520
Speaker 1: representation of women in general. Um, and how we do

822
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 1: tend to with the way that women are represented on screen.

823
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:29,280
Speaker 1: It is so easy still to fall back on tropes

824
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: to punish women for their sexuality or or breaking gender

825
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:36,720
Speaker 1: norms and uh this was also coming from mckenny's box piece.

826
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,759
Speaker 1: She says that male characters outnumber of female characters three

827
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:44,280
Speaker 1: to one in family films, so like a Disney movie,

828
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:49,600
Speaker 1: and fort of male TV characters are shown on the

829
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 1: job in comparison to just twenty eight percent of female characters.

830
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:57,239
Speaker 1: So women either aren't there, or when they are there,

831
00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 1: they're not shown in positions of power. We're seeking power.

832
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 1: But as some would argue that it's definitely getting better,

833
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:09,719
Speaker 1: not necessarily because we're seeing um more three dimensional maleficence everywhere,

834
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:12,839
Speaker 1: but because of the rise of the female anti hero.

835
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 1: Oh my god, my favorite anti hero right now is

836
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:22,720
Speaker 1: Phoebe waller Bridge on Fleabagh. You and me both girl. Oh,

837
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:26,400
Speaker 1: I Binge watched there's six episodes on Amazon. I Binge

838
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:31,279
Speaker 1: watched it. I I belly laughed the entire time I

839
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 1: was watching that, and at the end the last episode,

840
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:37,760
Speaker 1: I was alternating between laughing and sobbing like a crazy person.

841
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:41,160
Speaker 1: It was such a good show. She is such an

842
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:45,920
Speaker 1: amazing character. I'm a little obsessed and I just saw

843
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:48,200
Speaker 1: an article. Where was it? Was it on Refinery I

844
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 1: just saw an article about what her lipstick shade is

845
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:54,520
Speaker 1: on that TV show. Such a good lip shade. Oh yeah,

846
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 1: she's wearing the statement lip. Um. I would also like

847
00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 1: to give a shout out to Sharon Horgan, who stars

848
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:05,400
Speaker 1: in Catastrophe. Um. And she's also the showrunner of Sarah

849
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:11,880
Speaker 1: Jessica Parker's new HBO show Divorce, which I'm not loving,

850
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:16,919
Speaker 1: but I love Sharon Horgan. She's uh, she's hilarious. I mean,

851
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 1: if you can share the screen with Rob Delaney and uh,

852
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:25,040
Speaker 1: hold your own amazing and their chemistry is fantastic, and

853
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 1: she is flawed and three dimensional and wonderful. Well, and

854
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:35,080
Speaker 1: that you said something, it's so key and it's flawed.

855
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 1: And whether you're a villain or an anti hero, and typically,

856
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 1: if it's not a fairy tale anti hero equates to

857
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:47,719
Speaker 1: just regular woman with flaws and bumps and bruises and all.

858
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:53,879
Speaker 1: But um, McKenney writes about how when you don't let

859
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:58,000
Speaker 1: women be either the villain or just the flawed anti hero,

860
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:02,799
Speaker 1: that ties into ideas of benevolent sexism that like, make

861
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 1: sure if we're gonna have a heroine she's going to

862
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 1: be upstanding and you know, pure and innocent and in

863
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:13,000
Speaker 1: need of help. You know, we can't. We can't let

864
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 1: the woman hero have flaws and potentially be angry. Well,

865
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 1: that's why Jessica Jones is such a refreshing change from

866
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 1: all of that too. Although still all the people that

867
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:29,040
Speaker 1: we've been naming so far white. Yeah, so we still

868
00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 1: got catching up to do. Well. And let me tell you, so,

869
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:36,440
Speaker 1: I noticed this as I was, you know, pulling notes

870
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 1: out of all of these sources that we read, and

871
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 1: I was like, where are the black women? Where are

872
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 1: the Asian women? Like? And so I I did some

873
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 1: searches on comic book sites, but listeners, I need your

874
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:51,840
Speaker 1: help because I am not a comic book person. And

875
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 1: so I was specifically googling, for instance, black comic book supervillains,

876
00:57:57,920 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 1: and I came across a couple of names. But when

877
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 1: I try to search for them elsewhere, like they either

878
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 1: weren't true villains or I couldn't find more and better

879
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:12,720
Speaker 1: fleshed out info. Well, on TV, though we do have

880
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 1: women of color being anti heroes. You've got Cookie on Empire,

881
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:19,919
Speaker 1: and you have Anally's keating and how to get away

882
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 1: with murder. There are times, for sure when you could

883
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 1: argue that Olivia Pope is an anti hero. Is the

884
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 1: show Gotham still on because Jada Pinkett Smith played Fish

885
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:33,880
Speaker 1: Mooney on that show, that's a villain? I don't know

886
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:37,120
Speaker 1: if Gotham still on though, I'm I'm not sure. I've

887
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 1: never watched it. It's not my cup of tea, but

888
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 1: I know I know some people love it, Gotham watchers.

889
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:47,360
Speaker 1: But okay, Kristen, Um, I forgot to mention, you know

890
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:50,080
Speaker 1: when you talked about Nurse Ratchet being punished in almost

891
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 1: a sexual assault style way. Um, That's one theory that

892
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:57,480
Speaker 1: Dan wall Over at The Mary Sue in June talked

893
00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 1: about that there are issues when it comes to screenwriters

894
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:05,040
Speaker 1: grappling with how to defeat a villain and that villain

895
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:07,320
Speaker 1: is a woman. Because typically when you've got a villain,

896
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:10,760
Speaker 1: the bad guy and the good guy fighting, it's fighting

897
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 1: and it's bloody and it's violent and it can be

898
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:15,360
Speaker 1: scary and awful and the and the bad guy ends

899
00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 1: up dying or whatever. Um. And so Dan wall Is like,

900
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:25,280
Speaker 1: I just wonder if screenwriters are nervous about having some big,

901
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:28,160
Speaker 1: epic final scene battle between a man and a woman

902
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:32,360
Speaker 1: and and his thing, I know, Kristen shaking her head walls.

903
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:35,120
Speaker 1: Thing that he argues is like, if that really is

904
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 1: what it is, because that's just a theory that he's

905
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:41,160
Speaker 1: wondering about. Just right, write better stories that don't have

906
00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 1: to involve punishing nurse Ratchet by taking your clothes off

907
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 1: or whatever. Yeah, there are all other forms of confrontation

908
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:50,400
Speaker 1: that might not necessarily involve violence a so yeah, be

909
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:55,120
Speaker 1: more creative. Also, uh talked to Josh Weeden because he

910
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:58,640
Speaker 1: made Buffy the Vampire Slayer if he can make as

911
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:05,160
Speaker 1: seven seas than hit show where Buffy is getting beaten

912
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:09,240
Speaker 1: up sometimes, I mean granted, and she's defending herself, but

913
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 1: like when early in uh what is it in the

914
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 1: second season when spoiler alert she and Angel fight, it

915
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:20,760
Speaker 1: is harrowing to watch um. And the same with Jessica

916
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:26,120
Speaker 1: Jones where like she's fighting um and it can be

917
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:30,520
Speaker 1: difficult to watch. But there's a difference between scenes of

918
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 1: women fighting and depictions of violence against women. Yes, which

919
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 1: also going back to Casino right quick, Oh my god,

920
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:42,480
Speaker 1: there's a little bit of that in there, which is

921
01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:46,840
Speaker 1: I just don't I don't have the stomach for it anymore.

922
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:51,640
Speaker 1: My threshold is so low for that I can't. So,

923
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 1: I mean, we need better villains, We need people to

924
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 1: write better villains, but we also just need people to

925
01:00:57,400 --> 01:01:02,000
Speaker 1: write better women right well, And something really telling about

926
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:04,440
Speaker 1: some of the shows that we've been talking about recently,

927
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 1: with say Scandal, How to Get Away with Murder Um,

928
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:10,800
Speaker 1: you have a woman of color who's a showrunner. You've

929
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:14,560
Speaker 1: got Shonda rhymes with Jessica Jones, you have also a

930
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 1: woman's showrunner, and they just announced for season two every

931
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:20,800
Speaker 1: single episode will be directed by a woman. Like this

932
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:24,520
Speaker 1: is why diversity is not just a buzzword that it matters.

933
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:29,160
Speaker 1: And same thing for Black Panther and Tanahasey Coats coming

934
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:32,960
Speaker 1: in and taking that over and completely reimagining that world

935
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:38,880
Speaker 1: with a black superhero at the center, because maybe now

936
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:43,480
Speaker 1: we can get more stories that reflect richer inner lives.

937
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 1: But also don't just fall back on tropes about woman

938
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:52,800
Speaker 1: as sexy equals bad and dangerous, woman as ambitious equals dangerous,

939
01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:59,680
Speaker 1: woman as anything over size, too bad and over the

940
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:05,200
Speaker 1: age of what like, which means that you and I

941
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:09,560
Speaker 1: are just old hags. Yeah, So, who are your favorite

942
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:14,400
Speaker 1: villains listeners. Were there any that we didn't mention? I'm

943
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 1: sure there are who you were hoping that we would cover,

944
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:19,760
Speaker 1: but we didn't. Let us know. Help us fill in

945
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:23,240
Speaker 1: our our villainous cannon, and we'd love to know all

946
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:25,000
Speaker 1: of your thoughts. We know so many of you are

947
01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:28,560
Speaker 1: pop culture junkies, so give us all of your insights.

948
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:30,680
Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at how Stuff works dot com is our

949
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:33,920
Speaker 1: email address. You can also tweet us at Mom's Stuff

950
01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:37,560
Speaker 1: podcast or messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple

951
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 1: of messages to share with you when we come right

952
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:42,800
Speaker 1: back from a quick break and now back to the show.

953
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 1: We have some letters here about a woman who is

954
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:55,640
Speaker 1: decidedly a hero. I have a letter here from Polly

955
01:02:55,880 --> 01:02:59,560
Speaker 1: in response to our Shirley Chisholm episode. She says, the

956
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:02,080
Speaker 1: first I heard of Shirley Chosen was on a trip

957
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:04,360
Speaker 1: to New York, where I wandered into a Brooklyn Delhi

958
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 1: alone and was grace to sit with a sweet older

959
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 1: fellow while I devoured my pastrami. He told me how

960
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:14,640
Speaker 1: he'd worked right beside the late great Unbossed and Unbought

961
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:18,440
Speaker 1: Chishlm in her campaigns. That man had the twinkliest twinkle

962
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:21,000
Speaker 1: in his eye as he taught me about her. Flash

963
01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:23,560
Speaker 1: forward a year, and I'm a field organizer for Denise

964
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:26,920
Speaker 1: Juno to take Montana's soul seat in the House of Representatives.

965
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:28,880
Speaker 1: Who I noticed you gave a shout out to on

966
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:32,560
Speaker 1: your Facebook page. What's so special about her potential nomination

967
01:03:32,640 --> 01:03:35,000
Speaker 1: comes not only from the fact that she's a two

968
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 1: term state superintendent who radically lifted graduation rates on reservations,

969
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:41,560
Speaker 1: or that she would be the first American Indian and

970
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:44,440
Speaker 1: not to mention, lesbian woman elected to Congress, but that

971
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:47,520
Speaker 1: she'd be taking the seat on the one hundredth anniversary

972
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:50,439
Speaker 1: of the first woman ever being elected to the House

973
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:54,520
Speaker 1: of Representatives. And that's right. It was Montana who voted

974
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 1: Jeanette Rankin into office in nineteen sixteen, before women even

975
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:01,560
Speaker 1: won the right to vote. Nash only. Montana has not

976
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 1: sent a woman to Congress in a hundred years, and

977
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:06,960
Speaker 1: it's about time. I seriously could not get through the

978
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:09,640
Speaker 1: hours of canvassing all over my city without listening to

979
01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:12,760
Speaker 1: Sminty between the doors I knock on. I always enjoy

980
01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:17,600
Speaker 1: pressing play on my phone after suffering thinly veiled racist, sexist, homophobic,

981
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:20,160
Speaker 1: reasons that a person at the door won't vote for Denise.

982
01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:23,640
Speaker 1: You know, I just love skipping past the men mowing

983
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:26,040
Speaker 1: their lawns as the two of you take a nuanced,

984
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:29,760
Speaker 1: intersectional look at something or another. I've stopped turning down

985
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:32,240
Speaker 1: the volume when I passed these men. Trump signed in

986
01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:34,800
Speaker 1: the yard, be damned. I'll end my letter with a

987
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:38,800
Speaker 1: current ZEITGEISTI quote from Jeanette Rankin, our first ever congresswoman.

988
01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:41,959
Speaker 1: If I had my life to live over, I would

989
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:46,000
Speaker 1: do it all again, but this time I would be nastier.

990
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:49,160
Speaker 1: And that, my friends, is what we call a good

991
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:54,040
Speaker 1: omen for Hillary's nomination. All my best, Polly, I love

992
01:04:54,160 --> 01:04:57,880
Speaker 1: that quote. I want that cross stitched. I bet it's

993
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:01,440
Speaker 1: already on at State. Okay, I have a letter here

994
01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:06,360
Speaker 1: from Leslie, also about Shirley Chisholm, and Leslie writes, I'm

995
01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:09,280
Speaker 1: not sure if you all know about this, but surely

996
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:12,160
Speaker 1: is one of the few women who have an official

997
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:17,200
Speaker 1: portrait in the US capital. Similarly to uh fellow badass

998
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:22,840
Speaker 1: Congresswoman Jeanette Rankin from Montana, Chisholm's portrait is extremely unique.

999
01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:25,040
Speaker 1: Not only does it depict her standing in front of

1000
01:05:25,080 --> 01:05:28,480
Speaker 1: the White House in a fabulously loud printed dress, but

1001
01:05:28,560 --> 01:05:31,240
Speaker 1: it's painted in such a beautiful, vivid color that it

1002
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:34,720
Speaker 1: demands attention. I used to be a congressional intern and

1003
01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:36,840
Speaker 1: would always make sure to point out the portrait on

1004
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:40,600
Speaker 1: tours that I would give to constituents, outlining her importance

1005
01:05:40,640 --> 01:05:43,360
Speaker 1: in political history, not only as a woman, but a

1006
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:48,160
Speaker 1: woman of color, usually concluding that she was quote an

1007
01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:52,400
Speaker 1: overall awesome lady Caroline. We got to take a field

1008
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:56,200
Speaker 1: trip now. That portrait ps is incredible. I want to

1009
01:05:56,200 --> 01:05:59,880
Speaker 1: see it. I love it in in person. Listeners, Thank

1010
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:03,080
Speaker 1: you so much for your delightful letters that charm us

1011
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:06,040
Speaker 1: every day. Mom. Stuff at how stuff works dot com

1012
01:06:06,120 --> 01:06:08,520
Speaker 1: is where you can send them and for links to

1013
01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:11,000
Speaker 1: all of our social media as well as all of

1014
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:14,040
Speaker 1: our blogs, videos, and podcasts with our sources so you

1015
01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:17,960
Speaker 1: can learn even more about millions. Head on over to

1016
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:25,240
Speaker 1: stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for moral this,

1017
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:27,919
Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Does it how stuff works

1018
01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:36,080
Speaker 1: dot com