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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent.

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Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support.

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Speaker 3: But enough with that, Let's get to the show.

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Speaker 4: Good morning, Welcome to Counterpoints. Ryan. How are you doing.

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Speaker 3: I'm doing great. How about you?

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Speaker 4: I'm doing well.

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Speaker 5: We've got a big show, including a very interesting conversation

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Speaker 5: that you set up with Jeffrey Sachs and Matt Tayeb

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Speaker 5: tell us a little bit about what we can expect

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Speaker 5: from this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is going to be good.

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Speaker 6: So we had Matt Tayube on the show a month

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Speaker 6: ago or so, and Matt and I both made some

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Speaker 6: gently disparaging remarks about Jeffrey Sachs the old jobs, as

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Speaker 6: one does from the eighties or nineties, But we were

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Speaker 6: both kind of going off what we understood from the

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Speaker 6: time about the reporting at the time about what he'd

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Speaker 6: been doing in the Soviet Union and into the transition

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Speaker 6: from the Silvit Union into Russia. He reached out and

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Speaker 6: added some fascinating context to what we'd been talking about,

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Speaker 6: and I asked him if he'd be willing to write

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Speaker 6: what he said for a drop site news and then

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Speaker 6: come back on the show and talk about it with Matt.

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Speaker 3: So we're going to add some.

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Speaker 6: I think genuinely new historical context to our understanding of

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Speaker 6: the US Russian relationship since the breakup of the Soviet

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Speaker 6: Union and leading all the way up to the war

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Speaker 6: in Ukraine, in which we have some news from there,

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Speaker 6: vladimart Zelenski insisting that he is not leaving Russian territory,

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Speaker 6: which of course that's what you would say. You're not

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Speaker 6: going to start out your negotiation by saying that you're

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Speaker 6: about to walk out.

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Speaker 5: Foreign minister resigned overnight as well. That's breaking as we're

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Speaker 5: recording this. So lots of Ukraine used to get to

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Speaker 5: We will get to that in the show. We're going

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Speaker 5: to start with Donald Trump doing an interview with Lex Friedman.

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Speaker 5: There's a lot to break down from how they had

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Speaker 5: that conversation, what they talked about, what they didn't talk about,

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Speaker 5: and all that good stuff. AOC and Jill Stein are

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Speaker 5: at war for one reason or another. So we're going

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Speaker 5: to dive into all of that. It's actually pretty interesting conversation,

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Speaker 5: especially given the RFK junior context. He is remaining on

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Speaker 5: the Michigan ballot, it appears, So let's talk about there

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Speaker 5: and some updates of course from Israel as well, Ryan,

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Speaker 5: because just yesterday we got some statements out of the

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Speaker 5: Biden administration that add to this discussion.

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Speaker 6: So, yeah, Biden administration is saying that they're going to

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Speaker 6: offer a take it or leave it deal to both

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Speaker 6: Israel and Hamas right at the same time that Israel

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Speaker 6: is now leading its biggest invasion into the West Bank

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Speaker 6: since two thousand and two.

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Speaker 3: It drops out.

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Speaker 6: We have a reporter who's on the ground there who

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Speaker 6: said a dispatch last night that we can talk about.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, excited to talk about that.

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Speaker 5: Also, hundreds of thousands of people in the streets in Israel,

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Speaker 5: so a lot of pressure on Net and yahou. Let's

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Speaker 5: start with Donald Trump on Lex Friedman's show. We're going

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Speaker 5: to play this first st where Lex Friedman pushed him.

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Speaker 5: This was the most Lex Friedman pushed him in their

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Speaker 5: forty five minute cumbers station on voting irregularities in the

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Speaker 5: twenty twenty two election. Alleged voting irregularities in the twenty

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Speaker 5: twenty election. Lex Friedman said he's independent. His friends are independent.

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Speaker 5: They like what Trump says about a lot of things,

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Speaker 5: but it's just the twenty twenty election lies that gives

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Speaker 5: him pause.

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Speaker 4: So here's how Donald Trump responded to that.

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Speaker 7: I became president. Then the second time, I got millions

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Speaker 7: of more votes, and I got the first time, I

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Speaker 7: was told if I got sixty three million, which is

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Speaker 7: what I got the first time, you would win.

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Speaker 3: You can't not win.

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Speaker 7: And I got millions of more votes and that and

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Speaker 7: lost by a whisker.

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Speaker 4: He lost by a whisker.

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Speaker 6: Whisker, The way he said was so good. Yeah, he

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Speaker 6: paused before he said it. He's like, well, he did

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Speaker 6: not want to admit that he actually lost. And then,

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Speaker 6: to his great credit, he said he lost by a whisker. Yes, also,

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Speaker 6: whoever told Here's what he doesn't understand, and which is

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Speaker 6: so fascinating. Why did so many more people vote in

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Speaker 6: twenty twenty than voted in twenty sixteen and voted in

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Speaker 6: any presidential election in American history? A Obviously populations higher

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Speaker 6: in twenty twenty than it was in nineteen twenty. But

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Speaker 6: why did so many millions more people come out in

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Speaker 6: twenty sixteen to vote against Donald Trump after he was

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Speaker 6: in the office for four years. He can't he just

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Speaker 6: can't seem to stumble on the answer that a lot

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Speaker 6: of people were just motivated to come out and vote

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Speaker 6: against him.

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Speaker 3: Well, he animated millions of people to.

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Speaker 6: Get off the sidelines, register to vote and just come

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Speaker 6: out and say I do not like this man.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it's it's interesting because the cope has some

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Speaker 5: truths wit in this case, which is there was this massive,

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Speaker 5: multi hundred million dollar effort to make voting really easy

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Speaker 5: during COVID And yeah, so that's I mean, he's not

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Speaker 5: wrong about that. But he also on the one hand,

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Speaker 5: when Lex Friedman says, a lot of people will call

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Speaker 5: you what authoritarian or fascist or something, I actually thought

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Speaker 5: the most interesting part of the interview was that exchange.

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Speaker 5: Lex Friedman says, I don't think Kamala Harris is a

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Speaker 5: communist and Donald Trump is basically like, well, they call

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Speaker 5: me authoritarian, so you know I can call her a communist.

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Speaker 4: I have to fight fire with fire.

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Speaker 5: That's hugely significant because it's such a Trumpian moment. It

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Speaker 5: is so rare that you see the candidate admitting that

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Speaker 5: their political.

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Speaker 4: Spin is a lie.

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Speaker 5: Ran you just don't ever that is an unspoken fact.

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Speaker 5: Everybody knows it, but nobody ever says it. And he

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Speaker 5: said it right there, and he's like so trumping and

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Speaker 5: completely honest about it.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 6: On the one hand, during this interview, he says, the

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Speaker 6: thing about running for president is you have to not

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Speaker 6: care what people say about you, because it's it takes

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Speaker 6: a lot of courage to get into the ring, and

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Speaker 6: if you care, you're going to choke. On the other hand,

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Speaker 6: he cares very clearly, cares very deeply, and is wounded

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Speaker 6: by all the things that people say about him, particularly

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Speaker 6: when they call he talked about I never said that,

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Speaker 6: you know, World War One soldiers were suckers and losers. Yeah, Like,

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Speaker 6: he has a lot of things that he's has grievances

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Speaker 6: about that he thinks he was unfairly maligned or that

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Speaker 6: were attributed to him in an unfair way. One of

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Speaker 6: them X people says, well, they call you a fascist,

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Speaker 6: and he's like, right, that's why I call her a

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Speaker 6: communist and she you know, they can dish it, but

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Speaker 6: they can't take it. So it was it was clear that, yeah,

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Speaker 6: he doesn't really think she's a communist. No, they said

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Speaker 6: her father's a Marxist, right, and Freedman's like, oh, that's true.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, but he said it's important to fight fire with fire,

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Speaker 5: meaning if they call me one thing, I have to respond.

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Speaker 5: And that's to your point about just to get back

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Speaker 5: to the voting thing for a moment.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's also a part of his cope.

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Speaker 5: That you know it's and there's some truth to it

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Speaker 5: as well, that he's the people have lied about him

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Speaker 5: and hyperbolized about him for so long that obviously if

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Speaker 5: the people knew the truth, they would love me. Just

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Speaker 5: not necessarily true, but that's probably how he sees it.

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Speaker 5: And Lex Friedman always reminds me of James Lipton from

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Speaker 5: Inside the Actor's Studio, Actually Will Ferrell's impression of James

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Speaker 5: Lipton from Inside the Actor's Studio, where he's just like,

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Speaker 5: if Heaven is real, what do you want to hear

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Speaker 5: God say to you when you get there? Just trying

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Speaker 5: to open up this part of Donald Trump that hasn't

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Speaker 5: quite been unlocked.

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Speaker 4: And Trump is just so good at not really answering

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Speaker 4: those questions.

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Speaker 5: You know, he's so good at just totally running out

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Speaker 5: the clock and saying nothing. He's better than Kamala Harrisons

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Speaker 5: saying nothing.

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Speaker 6: Yet also letting you know kind of what he's thinking

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Speaker 6: about sometimes, even if he's trying to conceal it or

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Speaker 6: trying to say it in a way that you can't

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Speaker 6: kind of tie him to a layer.

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Speaker 5: Well, let's talk about that, because here's Lex Friedman pushing

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Speaker 5: Donald Trump on whether or not he would release files

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Speaker 5: related to Jeffrey Epstein.

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Speaker 4: So here's the clip.

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Speaker 7: But a lot of big people went to that island,

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Speaker 7: but fortunately I was not one of them.

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Speaker 8: It's just very strange for a lot of people that

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Speaker 8: the list of clients that went to the island has

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Speaker 8: not been made public.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, it's very interesting, isn't It Probably will be.

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Speaker 8: By the way, So if you're able to, you'll be Yeah.

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Speaker 7: Certainly take a look at it now. Kennedy is interesting

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Speaker 7: because it's so many years ago. You know, they do

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Speaker 7: that for danger too, because you know, endangers certain people,

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Speaker 7: et cetera, et cetera. So Kennedy is very different from

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Speaker 7: the Epstein thing. But yet I'd be inclined to do

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Speaker 7: the Epstein I'd have no problem with it.

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Speaker 5: He really didn't want to talk about Epstein to the

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Speaker 5: point where he pivoted Jfkenny, like, if the Kennedy assassination

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Speaker 5: is your crutch to get out of an uncomfortable situation.

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Speaker 6: That's your easy question, right And for people who don't

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Speaker 6: have the background, Roger Stone is one of the people

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Speaker 6: who is Trump's best friend. Has been pushing for the

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Speaker 6: CIA is Kennedy documents to be released basically his entire life.

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Speaker 6: Roger Stone had one job as friend of Donald Trump,

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Speaker 6: and that was to get your friend the president to

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Speaker 6: declassify all of the JFK documents while he was president,

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Speaker 6: and they were due on schedule court ordered to be

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Speaker 6: declassified under the Trump administration, and he buckled to Mike

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Speaker 6: Pompeo and pressure from the CIA to withhold an enormous

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Speaker 6: number of those documents towards the end of his tenure.

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Speaker 6: And now he's saying that he will he'll do it

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Speaker 6: this time if he goes back in, and he's also

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Speaker 6: saying has no problem he's going to do the Epstein ones.

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Speaker 6: But Trump is not good at hiding his body language.

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Speaker 6: He was so uncomfortable talking about Epstein there.

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Speaker 5: Uncomfortable but almost like bemused when Friedman was like a

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Speaker 5: lot of people went to that island. And you can

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Speaker 5: see the look of on Donald Trump's face where he says, fortunately.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, elsewhere he says, yeah, it wasn't.

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Speaker 6: There's this incredible video of Trump and Epstein right like yeah,

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Speaker 6: like aling women at a at a party and like laughing.

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Speaker 6: And Trump tells Epstein some joke and Epscene doubles over laughing.

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Speaker 3: Uh, like Lix. Freedman asks him why why.

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Speaker 6: Did people why was he so effective at insinuating himself

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Speaker 6: into people's lives and and Trump says, what he was

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Speaker 6: a hailty Well fellow, and he had a lot of

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Speaker 6: assets Blake and island when he would use to attract people.

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Speaker 6: But yeah, he at first he does not seem interested

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Speaker 6: at all in releasing those names or in really talking

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Speaker 6: about it at all, but then by the end he says, Okay,

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Speaker 6: I'll do it.

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Speaker 5: Roger also friends with Howard Hunt's son, So just so

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Speaker 5: much to unpack.

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Speaker 4: In the drum.

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Speaker 6: Yes, and Howard Hunt's son is the one who claimed

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Speaker 6: that Howard Hunt on his deathbed, Yes, confess that there

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Speaker 6: was a c I A, uh, there was a CIA conspiracy.

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Speaker 6: If you listen into the tapes, it's not quite like,

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Speaker 6: it's not really quite there. Any kind of leads me,

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Speaker 6: and it's not clear how how there Howard Hunt is.

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Speaker 6: But yes, Howard Hunt's son is speak because yes, Rogerstone is.

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Speaker 6: If there was a guy who was going to convince

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Speaker 6: his friend to release the documents, it was Rogerstone.

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Speaker 5: You'd think you'd think, Well, let's hear how Trump responded

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Speaker 5: when Lex Friedman pressed him on Project twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 3: This is the clip.

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Speaker 8: Let me ask you about Project twenty twenty five. So

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Speaker 8: you've publicly said that you don't have any direct connection

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Speaker 8: to nothing.

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Speaker 7: I know nothing about it, and they know that too,

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Speaker 7: Democrats know that. And I purposely haven't read it. Because

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Speaker 7: I want to say to you, I don't. I have

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Speaker 7: no idea what it's all about. It's easier than saying

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Speaker 7: I read it, and you know all other things. No,

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Speaker 7: I purposely haven't read it, and I've heard about it.

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Speaker 7: I've heard about things that are in there that I

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Speaker 7: don't like, and there's some things in there that everybody

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Speaker 7: would like.

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Speaker 4: Oh, that was sort of a useless exchange. I felt

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Speaker 4: it was sort of.

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Speaker 5: Just like Donald Trump in any kind of mainstream interview

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Speaker 5: being asked about Project twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 4: I don't know what did you make about that?

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Speaker 9: Right?

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Speaker 6: He didn't press any further on it, right, and he

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Speaker 6: didn't talk about what's in it, right, It just which

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Speaker 6: is that's the like what's good about alternative media is

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Speaker 6: when it gets into the specific somebody at least he

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Speaker 6: had the thing up on the side it said, you know,

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Speaker 6: firing fifty thousand that are workers is one of the

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Speaker 6: things in Project twenty twenty five. There's a lot of

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Speaker 6: other cultural stuff in there. That's the stuff that Trump

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Speaker 6: is running from. You know, I haven't read the exact

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Speaker 6: details of what it says around abortion and IVF, but

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Speaker 6: it's not going to be it's not going to be popular.

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Speaker 6: It's not going to be the remotely moderate stuff, right, Yeah, So,

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Speaker 6: I mean what else in there do you think that

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Speaker 6: he's right?

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Speaker 3: Is he running from.

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Speaker 5: And on Project twenty five five? I mean, I think

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Speaker 5: he just is running from the image that Democrats have

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Speaker 5: successfully created of it being a boogeyman that you can

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Speaker 5: kind of because there are things that are not in

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Speaker 5: Project twenty twenty five, that the Harris campaign is pretty

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Speaker 5: successfully just getting to associate with Project twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 5: and they've already associated Project twenty twenty five with Trump.

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Speaker 4: It's been like this brilliant.

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Speaker 5: Marketing effort, pr effort to build something out of just

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Speaker 5: the name Project twenty twenty five, which is so broad

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Speaker 5: that you can kind of project onto it, what do

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Speaker 5: you want to project onto it? So I think he's

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Speaker 5: running away from Project twenty twenty five itself entirely. And

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Speaker 5: that's why the Trump campaign has started to put out

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Speaker 5: its own sort of policy plans so that they can say,

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Speaker 5: this is what he want to do, has nothing to

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Speaker 5: do with what like you can compare and contrast, But

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Speaker 5: they don't own our plans. We thoroughly own what our

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Speaker 5: policy plans are going forward. And to the extent that

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Speaker 5: the Trump campaign does own Project twenty twenty five, it's

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Speaker 5: just because there would be I think overlap in staffing

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Speaker 5: that there there would actually be a lot of people

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Speaker 5: who were involved with Project twenty twenty five who would

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Speaker 5: end up working in a Trump administration like that's and

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Speaker 5: they have ideas that they've put on paper about what

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Speaker 5: some of the policies are that they'd want to implement.

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Speaker 5: But it's you know, that's why the Trump campaign is

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Speaker 5: running from the whole thing.

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Speaker 4: From my perspective.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and it seems fair to ask Trump to actually

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Speaker 6: put out some policies like he gets he gets a

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Speaker 6: pass from that from the media because I think he's

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Speaker 6: Trump and there's something almost absurd about him, even like

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Speaker 6: having detailed policy. Like when he said I haven't read

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Speaker 6: it because I wanted to be able to say to

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Speaker 6: you that I have nothing to do with it, It's like, well, yeah,

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Speaker 6: you also didn't read it because you just don't read

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Speaker 6: stuff like you didn't. You didn't need a reason not

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Speaker 6: to read a long document like we've all read the reporting,

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Speaker 6: like the military like draws pictures and stuff.

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Speaker 3: Because he has a very short attention.

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Speaker 5: Listen, I don't think anybody wants to read Project twenty

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Speaker 5: twenty five because it's so long.

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Speaker 3: I haven't read it.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's I've looked at it, but I haven't like

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Speaker 6: read it all the way.

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Speaker 3: So I'm like, yeah, so I should. I'm not doing

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Speaker 3: my job here.

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Speaker 10: Well.

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Speaker 11: Uh.

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Speaker 5: Trump was also asked by Lex fre about basically how

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Speaker 5: he posts on truth social that I did find useful

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Speaker 5: and interesting in the sort of James Lipton inside the

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Speaker 5: Actors studio sense, because he said that he posts from

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Speaker 5: bed and that sometimes you know.

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Speaker 3: If you run sleep much, right, He's not one.

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Speaker 4: He's not one for sleeping something like this.

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Speaker 5: So let's roll this clip of Donald Trump talking about

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Speaker 5: reposts on truth social.

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Speaker 8: I'd love to get your psychology about behind the tweets

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Speaker 8: and the posts on truth. Are you sometimes being intentionally

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Speaker 8: provocative or are you just speaking your mind? And are

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Speaker 8: there times where you regret some of the truths you've posted?

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Speaker 9: Yeah?

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Speaker 7: I do, I mean, but not that often. Honestly, you know,

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Speaker 7: I do a lot of reposting. The ones you get

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Speaker 7: in trouble with are the reposts because you find down

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Speaker 7: deep they're into some group that you're not supposed to

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Speaker 7: be reposting. You don't even know if those groups are good, bad,

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Speaker 7: or indifferent. But the repot so the ones that really

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Speaker 7: get you in trouble. When you do your own words,

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Speaker 7: it's sort of easier, but the reposts go very quickly.

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Speaker 7: And if you're gonna check every single little symbol and uh,

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Speaker 7: I don't know, it's worked out pretty well for me.

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Speaker 9: I tell you, it's.

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Speaker 4: Truth is it's the reposts.

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Speaker 3: It's the repost that gets you.

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Speaker 4: Mm hmmm.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 3: True.

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Speaker 5: The hair is Champagne is not wrong. So the Hair's

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Speaker 5: campaign took that video and tweeted. Trump asked about reposting

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Speaker 5: QAnon a misogynistic content quote, I do a lot of reposting.

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Speaker 4: It's worked out very well.

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Speaker 3: Yes, he did. He in the end, he's like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it worked out great for me.

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Speaker 4: So this brings us full circle too. I know, we're

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Speaker 4: breaking down real quick.

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Speaker 6: The reason it works out well for him is that

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Speaker 6: he can dog whistle to these groups. So like he's like, oh,

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Speaker 6: there's some symbol that I didn't realize what that symbol was. Well,

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Speaker 6: it's on truth social and it's controversial. It's some type

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Speaker 6: of white nationalist symbol that he's referring to in general.

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Speaker 6: And so he retruths that or whatever his word.

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Speaker 4: And what is like, what is the you means something specific?

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Speaker 9: You mean no?

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 6: The way that he said it was like, you don't

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Speaker 6: look all the way down at the bottom of the

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Speaker 6: post that you're reposting and there's a there's some symbol

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Speaker 6: there that represents some group that you didn't know about,

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Speaker 6: and it's controversial and you reposted it, and now you're

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Speaker 6: tagged with associating with that group, Like Q and stuff

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Speaker 6: did happen ninety percent of the time you're talking q

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Speaker 6: and on stuff or white Nash.

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Speaker 4: So where we go on we go all hashtags.

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Speaker 6: Stuff like that exactly or fourteen words or like something

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Speaker 6: that's like So, what he gets is to give a

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Speaker 6: little bit of a love to those groups while maintaining

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Speaker 6: plausible deniability because he genuinely, I think probably Off in

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Speaker 6: many cases, doesn't know what that what that symbol is,

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Speaker 6: but he knows that there's a bunch of stuff he

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Speaker 6: doesn't know, and he knows the direction it's going.

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Speaker 3: So he's like, he's like, oh, I can.

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Speaker 6: Be clever here, Well, I can show them that I'm

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Speaker 6: on their side, while being like, oh, geez, it's just

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Speaker 6: fourteen words. I didn't know what fourteen words meant.

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Speaker 5: Which I mean plausible deniability on that one for the

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Speaker 5: first time. Yeah, But I mean also that's sort of

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Speaker 5: like the typical politician as gatekeepers.

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Speaker 6: Right, but exactly, and it also shows to his people

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Speaker 6: that he's not a typical politician.

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Speaker 3: But I think he not.

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Speaker 6: What it shows is he knows what he's doing because

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Speaker 6: in the end, he says, it works out really well

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Speaker 6: for me.

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Speaker 5: He so, and this brings us, I think to the

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Speaker 5: thirty thousand foot view of Donald Trump doing an interview

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Speaker 5: with Like Friedman, they talked about whether he would.

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Speaker 4: Do an interview with Joe Rogan. He said, I don't

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Speaker 4: really know Joe Rogan.

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Speaker 5: I see him when he walks into the arena with

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Speaker 5: Dana White and Alex Friedman pushed him a little bit

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Speaker 5: and said, there's some tension between you and Joe Rogan

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Speaker 5: because he, you know, said he really likes RFK Junior.

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Speaker 4: And Trump was like, I don't think there's really any tension.

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Speaker 4: I don't really know the guy. I don't know if

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Speaker 4: i'd do a show, I'd probably do.

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Speaker 5: A show, but I'm not going to ask him, he says.

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Speaker 5: I haven't been asked, but I'm not going to ask him.

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Speaker 6: He said, and he said he seemed like a liberal guy,

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Speaker 6: which I wish.

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Speaker 3: The left could understand.

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Speaker 6: Yes, yes, like Trump is right, like Rogan does have

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Speaker 6: like post twenty twenty when he got completely destroyed for

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Speaker 6: endorsing Bernie Sanders.

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Speaker 3: I think he's drifted.

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Speaker 6: Right in some cultural ways, but in general he's he

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Speaker 6: has a lot of like left wing instincts, hirement and wage,

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Speaker 6: supports unions, you know, supports Medicare for all, endorsed Bernie Sanders.

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Speaker 6: There's a reason Trump says that he seems like a

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Speaker 6: liberal guy, right, because he has a lot of liberal impulses.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, almost, I mean, yes, he's in Bernie Sanders. He

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Speaker 5: likes Tulsia Gabber, he likes you know, I don't know

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Speaker 5: where he stands on Tulsia Gabbert now, but obviously he

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Speaker 5: likes RFK Junior.

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Speaker 4: And yes.

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Speaker 5: So all that is to say, though, Donald Trump has

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Speaker 5: been on this tour of alternative media podcasts and it's

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Speaker 5: pretty interesting as a political strategy. Sometimes Alex Friedman gets

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Speaker 5: a little bit of or Theovon is a good example.

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Speaker 5: I thought Theovonne got more out of Trump psychologically than

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Speaker 5: Lex Friedman did, just because they were talking, and you know,

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Speaker 5: it's Donald Trump having a long form conversation with a comedian.

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Speaker 5: It becomes interesting in ways nobody expects. But Lex Friedman

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Speaker 5: I think got some genuinely interesting stuff out of Donald Trump.

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Speaker 5: On the other hand, that's not like Trump sitting down

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Speaker 5: with you know, Katie Kirk.

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Speaker 4: In some ways that are good in some ways that

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Speaker 4: are bad. I don't know.

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Speaker 5: It's it's as a campaign strategy. Pretty interesting, he talked.

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Speaker 5: This was one of the most compelling parts of the

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Speaker 5: interview as well. Trump talked about why you need to

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Speaker 5: do new media. He was like, maybe it's more powerful

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Speaker 5: than TV. And hearing that from Trump is so interesting

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Speaker 5: because this is a man who like mastered the use

442
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,160
Speaker 5: of television before he became a political candidate and when

443
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:51,040
Speaker 5: he became a political candidate. So there's something going on.

444
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:52,840
Speaker 5: I think that was a window into the way he's

445
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,560
Speaker 5: thinking about it. He talked about how Elon had him

446
00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,679
Speaker 5: on a spaces and got, you know, more listens than anyone.

447
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,920
Speaker 5: There's something going on, or he's starting to reckon with

448
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:06,080
Speaker 5: the alternative media or the old media, the gatekeepers having

449
00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:08,760
Speaker 5: less and less power, which is interesting to watch him

450
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 5: reckon with that in real time because he was a

451
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 5: huge Like he's the one that poured the fuel on

452
00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,560
Speaker 5: the fire of people starting to question the gatekeepers more

453
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:18,520
Speaker 5: than they ever have before. I mean, it was him

454
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:20,680
Speaker 5: coming out in twenty fifteen and sixteen talking about fake

455
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:24,520
Speaker 5: news and baiting the media into kind of exposing itself

456
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,680
Speaker 5: again for better or worse. I think for better when

457
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,399
Speaker 5: it comes to having transparency about how awful the media is.

458
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,200
Speaker 5: But to see him sort of not look at himself

459
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,320
Speaker 5: as a main character, and that was interesting as well.

460
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:37,879
Speaker 3: When's he going to come on here? What are we

461
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 3: doing wrong?

462
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,640
Speaker 4: That's right? An invitation? Are what are we doing wrong?

463
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,040
Speaker 4: Probably said all kinds of things. He would consider things

464
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:45,920
Speaker 4: that we're doing wrong.

465
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 3: Does he take that personally? He said, Hey, you have

466
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:49,360
Speaker 3: to not care.

467
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 4: I'm sure likex Friedman has some interesting stuff too.

468
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 3: I'm sure he has.

469
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, So anyway, it's it's smart. I mean, Kamala Harris,

470
00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:57,479
Speaker 4: we're not asking him.

471
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 3: He's not going to ask us. So well. Kamlin Harrison.

472
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,439
Speaker 5: Probably she did Charli Maine and just Face Planet on

473
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 5: Charli Mane if I'm remembering correctly.

474
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 3: I remember seeing some clips from it, which is not good.

475
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,560
Speaker 5: Right, But hey, they should both they should both get

476
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,640
Speaker 5: even more comfortable with new media. But you know, I'll

477
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 5: take one candidate becoming comfortable with new media because and.

478
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 3: Jade Vance he's been here.

479
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, I reach I did reach out to the Walls

480
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 6: camp and say, look, Jadie Vance comes on these.

481
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 3: Shows, you might as well too. Hey, that's right, he's

482
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 3: not here yet.

483
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 5: Let's move on to this feud between Alexandria Kazio Cortes

484
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 5: and Jill Stein. Ryan, do you want to set the

485
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 5: table for us on this because it's sort of straight.

486
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 4: Out of your book.

487
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 6: Well, so AOC was doing in Instagram live and taking

488
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:52,440
Speaker 6: questions from her audience, and one of them was basically,

489
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,880
Speaker 6: what should I say to my friends who are considering

490
00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 6: voting Green Party or thinking about voting for for Jill Stein?

491
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,440
Speaker 3: Let's roll the AOC clip that kicked this off.

492
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 1: You are the leader of your party, and if you

493
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,119
Speaker 1: run for years and years and years and years and

494
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 1: years in a row and your party has not grown,

495
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 1: and you don't add city council seats, and you don't

496
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 1: add down vallet candidates, and you don't add state electeds,

497
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,400
Speaker 1: that's bad leadership. And that, to me is what's upsetting,

498
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 1: because if you have been your party's nominee for twelve

499
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 1: years in a row, four years ago and four years

500
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 1: before that and four years before that, and you cannot

501
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:47,120
Speaker 1: grow your movement pretty much at all, and can't pursue

502
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 1: any successful strategy, and all you do is show up

503
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 1: once every four years to speak to people who are

504
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,360
Speaker 1: justifiably pissed off. But you're just showing up once every

505
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 1: four years to do that. You're not serious, you're not authented.

506
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 1: To me, it does not read as authentic. It reads

507
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,439
Speaker 1: as predatory. I'm sorry, I'm just saying it.

508
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,119
Speaker 3: And let's roll Jill Stein's response from an.

509
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 9: Airport here still here.

510
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 12: I'm about to board, but very quickly. I just wanted

511
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 12: to thank AOC Pelosi so very much for her very

512
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 12: authentic concern about growing green power. Clearly, AOC is the

513
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 12: attack dog d joure and the Democrats are running scared,

514
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 12: and they should be, because who wants to support a genocide?

515
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,680
Speaker 12: Who wants to vote for a genocide? And if there's

516
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 12: anything that's predatory here, it's saying that your candidate is

517
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 12: working tirelessly for a ceasefire, when actually they are actively

518
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:48,160
Speaker 12: funding and arming genocide and actually refusing to even consider

519
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,639
Speaker 12: an arms embargo, which would bring the genocide to a

520
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 12: screeching halt. AOC, who's supposed to be in leadership of

521
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 12: the Democratic Party, it's amazing if she doesn't know about

522
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 12: the anti Democrat tactics and strategies that the Democratic Party

523
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 12: uses to crush and silence political opposition, and.

524
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 3: To take it to another level.

525
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 6: The DNC is now attacking Jill Stein if you can

526
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,120
Speaker 6: put up this element here. So Jill Stein went down

527
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 6: to support three black nationalist activists who are charged with

528
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 6: acting as agents of Russia.

529
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 3: She went down to support them.

530
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 6: The DNC spokespresident said, Jill Stein is a useful idiot

531
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 6: for Russia. After parrotying Kremlin talking points and being propped

532
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 6: up by bad actors in twenty sixteen, she's at it again.

533
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,959
Speaker 6: Jill Stein won't become president, but her spoiler candidacy that

534
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,679
Speaker 6: both the GOP and Putin have previously shown interest in,

535
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 6: can help decide who wins. A vote for Stein is

536
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 6: a vote for Trump, which is that is the like

537
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 6: that's the oldest line in the book from mainstream parties

538
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 6: towards third party candidates, that a vote for X is

539
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 6: actually vote for Why, as somebody on the outside, when you.

540
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 3: Watch these those three different clips, what was your reaction

541
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 3: to him?

542
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:03,479
Speaker 5: I mean, I think Jill Stein got the better of

543
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,919
Speaker 5: AOC in that exchange because on the question of like,

544
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 5: they're both talking about what they believe is genocide, So

545
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 5: it's pretty black and white when you can spit back

546
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 5: at AOC that she's on the side of the party

547
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 5: that's saying Joe Biden is working tirelessly or Kamala Harris

548
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 5: is working tirelessly for a ceasefire. I mean, that felt

549
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 5: like kind of a slam dunk, even though obviously Jill

550
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 5: Stein AOC is correct that Jill Stein has not found

551
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 5: much of a constituency over her many years in politics.

552
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 5: But where it's somewhat I don't know if disappointing is

553
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 5: the right word, but somewhat frustrating to hear from AOC

554
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 5: who I disagree with on most things but so thoroughly

555
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 5: enjoyed her defeat of Joe Crowley. Is you know, that's

556
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:53,399
Speaker 5: not all for That's not all Jill Stein's fault. There

557
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 5: are a lot of other forces that AOC should theoretically

558
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 5: be opposed to that were gatekeeping Jill Stein. I don't

559
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 5: think Jill Stein is like a brilliant once in a

560
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 5: generation politician, or is anyone that could turn out to

561
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 5: be like a Ross Perot level third party candidate. I

562
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 5: just don't find her that compelling. I don't think a

563
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,439
Speaker 5: lot of other people find her that compelling. There are

564
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 5: many people who do, but not enough to obviously become viable.

565
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 5: There are a lot of gatekeepers that are pushing to

566
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 5: ensure people like Jill.

567
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 4: Stein aren't viable.

568
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 5: And you'd think AOC would have some sympathy because her

569
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 5: entire sort of Instagram video, her entire argument, and that

570
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 5: Instagram video was sort of saying if you're not finding

571
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 5: it was kind of smug, right, It's like, if you're

572
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 5: not finding a constituency, then that's on you. It's like, well,

573
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,239
Speaker 5: it's probably also on a lot of the factors you

574
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 5: say you don't.

575
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 6: Like too it is, but you have to you know,

576
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:48,360
Speaker 6: if you're one person you work with the world. You've

577
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 6: got one correction on to AOC's argument there. It's actually

578
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 6: Howie Hawkins, who was the Green Party nominee in twenty twenty.

579
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 6: If you remember Howie Hawkins, No, which goes to the

580
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 6: point like nobody even knows who the Green Party nominee was,

581
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 6: for instance, in twenty twenty. Yeah, like we know Ralph

582
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 6: Nader in two thousand is a Green Party nine.

583
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 3: Pretty much the last time they were kind of relevant.

584
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 6: So it's Jill Stein in twenty sixteen out Hawkins in

585
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 6: twenty twenty Hawkins. A lot of Greens were upset with

586
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 6: Hawkins because they thought that he didn't kind of challenge

587
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 6: the duopoly enough and kind of made way in different

588
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 6: states for Biden to take on Trump. Because there's this

589
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 6: there is this perennial concern that as a third party

590
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 6: does better, let's say, like the Greens in two thousand,

591
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 6: a substantial number of those voters then get concerned, Oh,

592
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 6: we did better, the party did not improve, did not

593
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 6: move our direction, and now we're getting blamed for spoiling

594
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 6: the election, and then it drains support from them again

595
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 6: in the future. I've got my own complicated Green history.

596
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 6: I was actually a Green Party member.

597
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,719
Speaker 4: Least surprising I've received.

598
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 6: In New York shout out to Paul Gilman, who invited

599
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 6: me to join the Queen's Green Party back in nineteen

600
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 6: ninety nine to two thousand. I even went to on

601
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 6: a like a with a convay of buses.

602
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 3: I literally went to the Green Party.

603
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 4: Convention just Doc Martins everywhere.

604
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 6: Two thousand door knocking, like volunteered this Madison Square Garden

605
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 6: rally where he packed the entire event. So every single

606
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 6: argument that anybody could make for the Green.

607
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 4: Party, you're sympathetic too.

608
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 6: I made myself in a louder and more obnoxious way

609
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 6: many many times over. And the basic arguments are, there's

610
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 6: no difference between the two parties. And then the second

611
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 6: argument is, by building third party power, you're going to

612
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 6: kind of force the Democrats to move better, to move

613
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 6: in your direction, and we can take each one of those,

614
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 6: you know.

615
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 3: Two thousand argued.

616
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 6: So the Greens also have this thing that they do

617
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 6: where they say, and I did it myself.

618
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 3: That okay.

619
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 6: Look if you say, look Ralph Nader got x thousands

620
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 6: of votes in Florida and that swung the election to

621
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 6: Bush the Greens, and go scroll down to the comment section,

622
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 6: you'll see him doing it right now. The Greens will say,

623
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 6: that's absolutely not true. That they were registered Democrats who

624
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 6: ended up voting for George Bush, and that's the fault

625
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 6: of Democrats. Those were like, but those are Southern Democrats

626
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 6: like who were actually Republicans who were always going to

627
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 6: vote for Republicans. There were definitely, like, it's five hundred

628
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 6: and thirty seven votes in the end separated Gore and Bush.

629
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,719
Speaker 6: Like you just have to say, like, okay, there there

630
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 6: were tens of thousands of people who voted for Nator,

631
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 6: who if he wasn't running, they would.

632
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 3: Have voted for al Gore. Like, that's just a fact.

633
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 6: And to me, as a third party supporter, the proper

634
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 6: answer is not to like split hairs about this and

635
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 6: argue that, no, it didn't actually have an effect.

636
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 3: You have to own it.

637
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, because it's your argument. That's your argument.

638
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 6: There's no difference, yeah, and it's and it's good like whatever,

639
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 6: like we're we're going to vote for this person, come

640
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 6: what may, and there's no difference anyway. And then as

641
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 6: soon as it has some impact on the real world,

642
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 6: they run from any responsibility from it. And so then

643
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 6: a couple things happen after two thousand and one.

644
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 5: Which implies you don't like the consequences, right, although you

645
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 5: were threatening those very consequences as a good.

646
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 3: Thing, right exactly.

647
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 6: So I have much deeper respect for the argument that, yeah,

648
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 6: that's right, it did cost him, and you know what,

649
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,239
Speaker 6: Democrats should have been a better party, and if they

650
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 6: were a better party, then we wouldn't have run, and

651
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 6: he wouldn't have gotten as much.

652
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 4: Support or a should have earned those votes.

653
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,479
Speaker 6: Nobody is like, nobody's born with the right to have

654
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 6: having you vote for them, Like, those are better arguments

655
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 6: to me on a moral level. That's a great point

656
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 6: than to say I didn't actually And so you get

657
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 6: this from Greens all the time.

658
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 3: Actually it didn't matter.

659
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 6: Like the thing that I talk about all the time,

660
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 6: you know, my choice to vote third party doesn't actually

661
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 6: mean anything. They're like, well, why are you talking about

662
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 6: it constantly?

663
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 3: It didn't actually mean anything.

664
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 6: So after two thousand you get September eleventh happens, Bush

665
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 6: is in office, he invades a Raq, and so a

666
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 6: lot of people, including myself, were confronted with the question,

667
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 6: now I voted in New York didn't matter.

668
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 4: Well, also there's the question, would al Gore have done

669
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 4: the same thing?

670
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 9: Right?

671
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 3: I think the answer is no.

672
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 6: I think in order to for the US to invade Iraq,

673
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 6: you need the Neocon in positions of power.

674
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 3: I mean, he's been those levers.

675
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 5: I mean the Georgia bubush, going from saying we're going

676
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 5: to end Middle East interventionism to you know, championing Middle

677
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 5: East right.

678
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 6: But it was his vice president Dick Cheney and his

679
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 6: uh you know, Secretary of Events down On Rumsfeld and

680
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,479
Speaker 6: Paul Wolfowitz and like tho that that clack of people

681
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 6: really kind of did a lot of internal organizing to

682
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 6: make sure that that happened. You can read Bob Woods's

683
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 6: book about nine to eleven. Like within a day or

684
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 6: two of the attack on the World Trade Center, Rumsfeld

685
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 6: is saying, we need to invade Iraq because there aren't

686
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 6: enough targets in Afghanistan and the and they immediately start

687
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 6: laying the groundwork for that, and that this was a

688
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 6: particular set of people who had a particular vision it is.

689
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 5: It was the neo conservatism gets thrown around a lot,

690
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 5: but it is a very specific like in its literal sense,

691
00:33:57,960 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 5: there is a very specific sort of group.

692
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 6: Of people that are referred These were the intellectual leaders

693
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 6: of it, and they were in the exact right positions

694
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 6: of power to kind of jam it into happening.

695
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 5: That said, the Greens, like yourself at that very moment,

696
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 5: may have had a good case to own. Frankly, that

697
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 5: personnel and an al Gore administration continued from the Clinton

698
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 5: administration could have made some of the very same errors.

699
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 5: I'm not saying that's absolutely accurate. I'm just saying there

700
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 5: was the green case that both parties are the same

701
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 5: through the lens of the or the response to nine

702
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 5: to eleven not a terrible argument, because there is some

703
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:44,240
Speaker 5: overlap between Clinton neo conservatism and ultimately what became Bush

704
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:48,359
Speaker 5: neo conservatism. Some important differences too, but it's yeah, it's

705
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 5: hard to.

706
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 6: Say yeah, And that gets to the more difficult question

707
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 6: of today, because I think, yes, yes, I think back

708
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 6: then it was clear the Republicans were much more both

709
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 6: part like this is a America. Both both parties have

710
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 6: like enormous numbers of warmongers in them on the scale

711
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 6: of warmongers, and two thousand Republicans had the had the

712
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 6: neo cons they had the they had the aggressive militarism

713
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 6: of Reaganism still kicking, and uh, Democrats had like, say,

714
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 6: let's say half of that. Today, I think if if

715
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 6: it's a if you're asking about workers, unions, on the economy,

716
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 6: on domestic policy, I genuinely do think Democrats are better

717
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 6: for workers than Republicans are today when it comes to

718
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,280
Speaker 6: American militarism abroad and foreign policy.

719
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,359
Speaker 3: I can't say that for sure.

720
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 5: And don't you think AOC is saying that, I mean,

721
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 5: is a Democrat like that?

722
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,839
Speaker 6: And she's saying Democrats are better than Republicans, and any

723
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 6: Democrat ought to say that. But when it comes to

724
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 6: foreign policy, Trump could be a complete madman his second term.

725
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 3: Who knows.

726
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 6: But we know that Democrats have embraced a militarism and

727
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 6: a hawkish foreign policy that that is frightening, and.

728
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 4: Does it, from that perspective make them better?

729
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 3: So then you're asking yourself a real question.

730
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 6: It's a lesser of two years of two you've got

731
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 6: two parties, which one is better or worse on the

732
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 6: particular issue that I care about more like if I

733
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 6: think it's clear, if it's domestic policy, it's Democrats, Like,

734
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 6: I don't think there's any question about that.

735
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 3: Right now.

736
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 6: This realignment is fascinating. Four years, eight years from now,

737
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 6: we might have a different answer to that question foreign policy.

738
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 6: They might be better, but they might not. It's like,

739
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 6: it's not as obvious a question to me. Yeah, I

740
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 6: agree as it as it used to be because.

741
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 5: There are wars happening in both parties right now over

742
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 5: who gets to control foreign policy.

743
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's yeah, it's clearly happy.

744
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 5: I think it's more interesting right now on the Republican

745
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:52,959
Speaker 5: side because there are people who have genuinely heterodox views

746
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 5: on foreign policy that are starting to look like they're

747
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 5: coming out ahead in tug of war. Jd Vance is

748
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 5: one of them that doesn't seem like it's happening as

749
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,479
Speaker 5: much on the left, although Ilhan Omar is someone who's

750
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 5: certainly ascendant and has staked out a position actually directly

751
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 5: during DNC week against AOC.

752
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 6: And to me, those are the real questions that you

753
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 6: have to ask yourself. And if you notice what's not

754
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 6: in there, this is the third party stuff, right, or

755
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 6: in particular the Green Party. The Green Party has just

756
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,800
Speaker 6: done a deplorable job of growing power at the local

757
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,399
Speaker 6: level and at the state and at the federal level.

758
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 5: But some of that is clearly the fault of gate

759
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 5: keeping on behalf of vicious the DNC operatives and the media.

760
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 5: And I mean, like they're not entirely wrong about being

761
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 5: marginalized by you know, the pro lowercase D democracy factions

762
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 5: in American factions.

763
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 6: But people kind of sometimes make the mistake of assuming

764
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 6: that a political party that is named the Democrats would

765
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 6: support democracy.

766
00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 4: Big mistake, big mistakes.

767
00:37:58,600 --> 00:37:59,399
Speaker 3: But they don't.

768
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 6: They support the Democratic Party, and so yes, whatever is

769
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 6: in the interest of the Democratic Party, that's what they're

770
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 6: going to do, and if that means trying to kick

771
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 6: the Greens off the ballot, it's awfully hypocritical, but it's

772
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 6: exactly what you would.

773
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 3: Expect of them.

774
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 6: The fundamental problem that any third party has is the

775
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,359
Speaker 6: system that we have, which is this it is not

776
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 6: parliamentary in Europe and some other places around the world.

777
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 6: You win seven percent of the vote, you get seven

778
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 6: percent of the seats in parliament, and then you join

779
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 6: a coalition and then you can use that's that's the

780
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 6: leverage that you have here are coalitions are formed ahead

781
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 6: of time and then it's a first past the post.

782
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 6: Whoever gets not even a majority, whoever gets more votes.

783
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 6: That's why like Bill Clinton could win with thirty percent

784
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 6: one percent whatever he had in nineteen ninety two because

785
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 6: Ross pro drained out nineteen percent. And so that means

786
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 6: that a voter going into the polls, by the time

787
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 6: they get into the booth knows it's either going to

788
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 6: be this person or this person. And so all of

789
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 6: the different law fare and legal challenges and gatekeeping that

790
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 6: the media does to the Greens and to other the

791
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 6: Libertarians and other third parties, even RFK Junior like that

792
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 6: that hurts them a lot, but nothing hurts them more

793
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 6: than just the fundamental design of the system we have

794
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 6: because people because people go in and they want their

795
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 6: vote to count between one party or the other.

796
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, And that's what's interesting about Alexandria Kazu Kortez's response.

797
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 5: She could have said, she could have expressed any sort

798
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 5: of empathy for that perspective and went, I think instead

799
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 5: with the sort of smug dunk, which I get because

800
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 5: to the point that you're making, and as we're talking

801
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 5: about this, I find it so interesting. There are you know,

802
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 5: there's a real blame on the Greens for not being

803
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 5: more compelling to the average American voter that you know,

804
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 5: they're there's something that they haven't tapped into it. There

805
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 5: are real failures on their part. There are things that

806
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:00,760
Speaker 5: they and do better.

807
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 4: I get that.

808
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 5: I just would think, as somebody who's sort of sympathetic

809
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 5: to the anti establishment movements on either the left or

810
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 5: the right, that you would be your priority would be

811
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 5: saying like, hey, I hear you.

812
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 3: Agree with you.

813
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 6: Well, she did say at the beginning, which we didn't

814
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 6: play on that clip. She said, at the beginning, Look,

815
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 6: I'm not talking about the people themselves who are considering

816
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 6: voting for Jill Stein. She's like, look, I get that,

817
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 6: because the parties suck and frankly like, she went up

818
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 6: on stage and said, Kamala Harris working tirelessly to end

819
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 6: of Ce's fire, while to Kamala Harris's administration is sending

820
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 6: weapons to Israel yep.

821
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 3: And while net Nyaho is using.

822
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 6: The Biden administration's support of net Nyahu to fight off

823
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 6: pressure from his own coalition to reach a deal, we

824
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 6: are actively thwarting a deal, not working tirelessly to get one.

825
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 6: So yeah, we can all understand why somebody would not

826
00:40:57,880 --> 00:40:59,959
Speaker 6: want to vote for one of these these two parties.

827
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:04,240
Speaker 6: So she's not talking about those voters themselves. She's saying

828
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 6: that people like Stein herself are the ones that are

829
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:11,439
Speaker 6: being predatory. Well, and one other point on the Greens, Yeah,

830
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:17,919
Speaker 6: ask yourself, why did Cornell West run for the Green

831
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 6: Party nomination, spend about three weeks looking at the mess

832
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 6: that the Green Party had become and decide that he

833
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:28,240
Speaker 6: wasn't going to run anymore?

834
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:34,879
Speaker 3: Like this is And we can say, Okay, maybe it's

835
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 3: not their fault, etc.

836
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 6: Because of all the structural problems that they have anybody

837
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 6: who's active in the Green Party knows the Green Party

838
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 6: is a mess.

839
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 3: It's a complete and total mess.

840
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:46,879
Speaker 4: It's the same thing with the Libertarians. I mean it's

841
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 4: and both of us know this.

842
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 5: It's like their fringe political movements are often led by

843
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 5: eccentric characters who are already fighting the Sissifian battle against

844
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 5: the system that is designed to crush them. But anybody

845
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 5: who is willing to expend the like tireless effort that

846
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 5: involves to fight that's the Sisciphian battle, more often than

847
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 5: not as eccentric and more often than not not the

848
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 5: like best organizer in the world. It's like a lot

849
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 5: of like very interesting, you know, principled people on in

850
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 5: Green circles and libertarian circles, and those spaces get really

851
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 5: really messy.

852
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 3: I mean the on the libertarian side.

853
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 6: It's the same that it becomes a lifestyle for people

854
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 6: that it is a social thing. Comes now it's not

855
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 6: a lot of Democrats, like the ones who go to

856
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 6: the conventions as like delegates, same thing. That's a lifestyle

857
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 6: thing for them too. They just like being democrats. They

858
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 6: go to the county meetings like that's it. This is

859
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 6: it's what they do for their community. The difference there

860
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,240
Speaker 6: is that you know, they might win some elections sometimes

861
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 6: where Greens Libertarians, it just becomes like this is this

862
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 6: is my identity, this is the thing I do.

863
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 4: Yeah.

864
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 5: And so as we're saying this, Robert F. Kennedy Junior

865
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 5: is staying on the Michigan ballot, which is actually fairly

866
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 5: huge news because there were a lot of voters that

867
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:06,839
Speaker 5: he appealed to. I mean, we're getting in a night

868
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 5: or territory potentially with something like Michigan right now. There

869
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 5: are a lot of voters he appealed to who will

870
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 5: not be persuaded to vote for Donald Trump because they

871
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 5: were double haters and they're not going to you know,

872
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 5: sort of along the lines of what we talked about

873
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 5: with you in the debate we hosted with Michael Tracy

874
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 5: and our Kidjunior field organizer former last week. There's just

875
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 5: a whole lot of people that cannot be persuaded to

876
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 5: vote for Donald Trump. They are the sort of RFK

877
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 5: Junior Green equivalent. You know, both parties are the exact

878
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 5: same thing. And when you are in a race that

879
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 5: could get you just what was up five hundred and

880
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 5: something votes in Florida in two thousand, when you're in

881
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 5: a race that could be just as close as that

882
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 5: one and the electoral College is on the line in

883
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,839
Speaker 5: states like Michigan, having his name on the ballot is

884
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 5: for people who you know, don't pay super close attention

885
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 5: to politics and just want to cast a protest vote.

886
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,280
Speaker 5: That's really dangerous of the Trump campaign. And Mark Cuban tweeted,

887
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:03,839
Speaker 5: you know who helped pay for the lawsuit that got

888
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 5: RFK Junior Cornell West on the North Carolina ballot?

889
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 12: Me?

890
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 4: He said, I help fund voter choice.

891
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 5: I'm not a fan of the two party system, and

892
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:12,479
Speaker 5: voter tchoice helps get candidates on the ballot, and we're

893
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 5: good at it. His North Carolina organization came to us

894
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:16,319
Speaker 5: for help. We helped no cost to them, So I

895
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 5: don't feel bad that he can't get off the ballot.

896
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,359
Speaker 5: So Cubans are taking a victory lap on that one,

897
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 5: because the RFK Junior campaign was trying really hard to

898
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 5: get on the ballot in all of these states, and

899
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 5: then when you flip for Trump, you can't get off

900
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,399
Speaker 5: of it because it's late in the game. I could

901
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,959
Speaker 5: really I think that could really really hurt Donald Trump. Yeah,

902
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 5: hard to think of a Yeah.

903
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 3: I think that's absolutely right.

904
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,839
Speaker 6: Yeah, because if you go in because his job, he's

905
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 6: not going to make himself more popular or Trump.

906
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 3: He's going to make com Lris more less popular. That's

907
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 3: his goal.

908
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 6: And you know she's try to tear him down, but

909
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,360
Speaker 6: you know, views are kind of baked in on him.

910
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,400
Speaker 6: So by the time people go into the booth a

911
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 6: lot and we're going to hate both. And if RFK

912
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 6: Junior's name is there, then maybe right.

913
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,240
Speaker 5: Well, when we're planning the show, just a little inside

914
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 5: baseball here, we come up with topics that we think,

915
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 5: you know, we'll make good blocks for fifteen minutes something

916
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 5: like that. And we just turned a block on an

917
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:17,879
Speaker 5: Instagram post from Alexandra Acasio Corotez into like ecologies, half

918
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,879
Speaker 5: our discussion about Ryan's history of the Green Party, which

919
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 5: was so interesting.

920
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 4: Actually, and four well, yeah, it's all gone, you'll never.

921
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 5: See it, all right, Ryan, Let's move on to the

922
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 5: Middle East. Now, there's a story up on drop site

923
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 5: right now with some important reporting.

924
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:37,399
Speaker 4: Tell us what's going on.

925
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:39,799
Speaker 6: Yeah, we throw this element up on the screen so

926
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 6: that Israel's launching its biggest invasion of the West Bank

927
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 6: since two thousand and two. I'll just read from a

928
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 6: note that Jeremy Scahill attached to this article that we

929
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 6: published yesterday.

930
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 3: He wrote, a.

931
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 6: Few days ago, we reached out to Pali City and

932
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 6: journalist muja Ahead Alsadi for coverage from the ground on

933
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 6: the target of Jeanine's hospitals by the Israelian military. A

934
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 6: reporter from Jeanne who covered the region since twenty twelve,

935
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 6: Alsadi is no stranger to the dangers. In twenty twenty two,

936
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 6: he was just a few feet away from his friend

937
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 6: and colleague Scherin Abu Akhla, the legendary Al Jazera correspondent,

938
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 6: when an Israeli sniper shot and killed her. When we

939
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 6: can put this vo up on the screen in the

940
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:19,320
Speaker 6: second element here, Jeremy goes on, you can hear the

941
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 6: gunshots here from the IDF and on Monday, as he

942
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 6: was reporting this story, Alsati was among a group of

943
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:28,399
Speaker 6: journalists who came under attack by Israeli forces and bulldozers

944
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 6: while they were covering the destruction of a roundabout and

945
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 6: surrounding shops in downtown Jeanine.

946
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 3: The soldiers opened fire on them Injuring two, while the.

947
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,320
Speaker 6: Bulldozers drove at them at high speeds, forcing them to

948
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:42,279
Speaker 6: take cover inside shops. It's quite terrifying to have the

949
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 6: bulldozer rush at you, for them to shoot at you,

950
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,359
Speaker 6: he told us. They were trying to revent us from

951
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 6: doing our coverage. The next day, Palstinian journalists Amon al

952
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 6: Nubani and Mohammed Monsur were shot and injured by Israeli

953
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 6: forces in the village of caffd Dan, west of Jeanine.

954
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:02,280
Speaker 6: So this story was commissioned for us by Sharif abdel Cadus,

955
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 6: who legendary correspondent from the from the Least who uh

956
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 6: is working with us now. He edited and translated this

957
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 6: this report from from Arabic.

958
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 3: You can check check it out. There's some harrowing details

959
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 3: in it.

960
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 6: One of them, among them, among the many, has details

961
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 6: on how much how many sewer lines have been ripped up,

962
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:26,839
Speaker 6: you know, the extensive damage to the infrastructure. But then

963
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 6: some of the personal details he got are intense. One

964
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 6: about a mother of three who took two of her

965
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 6: children to a doctor's appointment in a hospital in Janeine

966
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:40,399
Speaker 6: last week, left her five month on five month old

967
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 6: home with family, and that's when the assault happened, and

968
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 6: she has been trapped in this hospital ever since. Just

969
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 6: trying to imagine like taking my kid to the dentist

970
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 6: and then all and then then then you're surrounded for

971
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 6: days and you're can't even get you know, the cell

972
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 6: phone line has been cut, like there's no internet, can't

973
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 6: even get in touch. You don't even know, like is

974
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 6: my family still okay? When am I ever going to

975
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:06,720
Speaker 6: leave this? Like are they getting attacked?

976
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 3: And so?

977
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 6: And this again is this is the West Bank, this

978
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 6: is this is not Kaza, this is UH right, and

979
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 6: it's and it's unfolding with exponential force.

980
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 3: It seems like you day after day. Meanwhile, all while.

981
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 6: The US net Yahoo and and AMAS kind of jockey

982
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 6: over the terms of a potential UH cease fire deal,

983
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:37,800
Speaker 6: we have we have net Yahoo delivering a press conference

984
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 6: recently where he laid out some of his conditions.

985
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 3: Let's roll.

986
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 9: Nen yago I was asked whether.

987
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 11: Israel as not I'm not doing enough to the release

988
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:54,959
Speaker 11: of hostages. Well, I want to set the record straight.

989
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 11: On August twenty eighth, that's five days ago. Five days ago,

990
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 11: deputies CIA director said that Israel shows seriousness in the

991
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 11: negotiations now Tramas must show the same seriousness. I want

992
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:14,919
Speaker 11: to ask you something. What has changed in the last

993
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 11: five days.

994
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 3: What has changed?

995
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 11: One thing? These murderers executed six of our hostages. They

996
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 11: shot them in the back of the head. That's what's changed.

997
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 11: And now after this, we're asked to show seriousness, We're

998
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:41,840
Speaker 11: asked to make concessions. What message does this send Tramas.

999
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 9: It says, kill.

1000
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 11: More hostages, murder more hostages, you'll get more concessions.

1001
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 6: White House National Security Council spokesperson John Kirby, in a

1002
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 6: briefing with reporters, who said the opposite of what Nanyahu

1003
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 6: has been saying.

1004
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 3: We can put up this Times of Israel article.

1005
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 6: It quotes that quotes Kirby here he says, the deal itself,

1006
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,560
Speaker 6: including the bridging proposal that we started working with, includes

1007
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:10,280
Speaker 6: the removal of IDF forces from all densely populated areas

1008
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 6: in phase one, and that includes those areas along and

1009
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:15,760
Speaker 6: adjacent to that quarter.

1010
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 3: He's talking about the Philadelphia Quarter.

1011
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 6: And this is yesterday, right, yes, And that's he says,

1012
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 6: that's the pro that's the proposal that Israel had agreed to.

1013
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:25,959
Speaker 6: So Israel had previously agreed to a proposal that would

1014
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 6: remove IDF troops from the Philadelphia Corner, which is in

1015
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:34,320
Speaker 6: Dan and Rafa, the border between Israel and Egypt. Nennyah,

1016
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 6: who is now saying that he has American support not

1017
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:41,880
Speaker 6: to do that is a complete public Disagreement's play. We

1018
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 6: can play a little more net Yahoo, just to show

1019
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 6: how just stark this divide is.

1020
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:49,760
Speaker 10: The Philathic Crridle, which separates Egypt from the Guzza Strip,

1021
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:54,360
Speaker 10: will not be evacuated. If Israel will give up control

1022
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 10: of it. Guzza will become an enclave of terror. When

1023
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 10: Ira designed from the government, when I realized that they

1024
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:04,439
Speaker 10: were going to do the disengagement and they were going

1025
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:08,280
Speaker 10: to break up these Jewish communities, I gave a mindative

1026
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 10: resignation to Prime Minister Sharon and I said in it

1027
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 10: that the minimum requirement of mine was to leave the

1028
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:18,760
Speaker 10: Philadelphia Corridle in Israeli control.

1029
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 6: So in that press conference Emily and he said to

1030
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,480
Speaker 6: he said, sinowar, it's not going to happen, ye like

1031
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,880
Speaker 6: he was. It's like I am not leaving the Philadelphic Corrider,

1032
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 6: Like he's not going to agree to anything that requires

1033
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 6: idea of troops to leave. Meanwhile, you have the US

1034
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,959
Speaker 6: saying that he has agreed to that, and the US

1035
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 6: wants him to do that, and you have nt Yahoo

1036
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:42,240
Speaker 6: telling his cabinet.

1037
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 3: Barack Revied reported this, He's like, the.

1038
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:48,240
Speaker 6: US has agreed to let them stay. Why are you

1039
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 6: trying to get us the cave? What kind of like

1040
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 6: incompetent incoherence are we witnessing here?

1041
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:57,400
Speaker 3: Like what's the US policy?

1042
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:01,879
Speaker 6: What's at least nat Yahu's policy seems well, I mean

1043
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 6: he's incoherent to because he previously approved a plan and

1044
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 6: a deal that would see Israeli troops leave the Philadelphia corridor.

1045
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,319
Speaker 3: Now he's saying that he won't sure.

1046
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:17,719
Speaker 5: And your colleague Jeremy Skhill has talked to at Drop

1047
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:21,800
Speaker 5: site people on the Hamas side about what these negotiations

1048
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 5: have looked like. There isn't a lot of that reporting

1049
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 5: in mainstream media, which makes it kind of difficult to

1050
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,720
Speaker 5: weigh competing claims, which is something that we're doing, for example,

1051
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 5: between Ukraine and Russia right now. You can sort of

1052
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 5: weigh the competing claims and try to get a window

1053
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 5: into these negotiations that are happening.

1054
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 3: Right Russia says this. Ukraine says this.

1055
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:45,320
Speaker 4: Right, and some of it is you know, they're both.

1056
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 5: Some of the spin is obviously different than what's being

1057
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 5: said behind closed doors, and some of it is what's

1058
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 5: said in public to pressure the other side is different,

1059
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 5: or to pressure people in your own country is different

1060
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 5: than what's being said behind closed doors.

1061
00:52:57,560 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 4: So I guess right, I'm curious for.

1062
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:05,280
Speaker 5: What your sense is is about if there's similar incoherence

1063
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 5: that because if you're fighting incoherent demands from one side

1064
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 5: with incoherent demands from another side, that makes mediation extraordinarily difficult, obviously,

1065
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:20,879
Speaker 5: But what's your sense Having worked with Jeremy and red

1066
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:21,919
Speaker 5: Thot reporting.

1067
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:25,920
Speaker 6: HAMAS has actually been incoherent in its response to the

1068
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:31,279
Speaker 6: killing of the hostages, you had a beta basically confirming

1069
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 6: that Hamas as the result of a new directive given

1070
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:39,480
Speaker 6: to guards of hostages. After so, if you remember back

1071
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 6: in June, there was a hostage rescue operation that was successful,

1072
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 6: but that led to more than two hundred Palestinians being killed,

1073
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 6: like entire neighborhoods, strafed and bombed. And after that they

1074
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 6: said they put in a new order that if that happens,

1075
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:59,799
Speaker 6: execute the hostages. That pretty clear confirmation that they had

1076
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 6: done it. You had, and you can find this on

1077
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:06,440
Speaker 6: our Twitter account else where. You had a political bureau

1078
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 6: spokesperson go on Al Jazeera last night.

1079
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 3: And say, well, maybe.

1080
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 6: They died and crossfire and like throwing a lot of

1081
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:17,399
Speaker 6: like kind of mud and dust up in the air

1082
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 6: and saying, you know, who knows exactly what happened. It's like,

1083
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 6: wait a minute, You're your people on ground basically confirmed

1084
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 6: it yesterday, two days ago.

1085
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 3: Now you're saying that who knows.

1086
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:30,240
Speaker 6: So there is there does seem to be a serious

1087
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:34,279
Speaker 6: divide between the political bureau Hamas types who were like

1088
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:37,279
Speaker 6: in Doha and the and the people still on the

1089
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:38,880
Speaker 6: ground in Gaza.

1090
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 3: But when it comes to the ceasefire.

1091
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:45,759
Speaker 6: Negotiations there there's coherence from Hamas. They are saying that

1092
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:49,360
Speaker 6: their terms are very clear. Israel has to leave Gaza

1093
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 6: like that, that's pretty and then the war has to

1094
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:52,839
Speaker 6: end like that.

1095
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 3: Those are their demands and Nanyas.

1096
00:54:56,360 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 6: Had previously agreed to that, and they the Hamas is saying,

1097
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 6: we just implement that previous agreement that they laid out,

1098
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:08,720
Speaker 6: that is real laid out and that Biden made public.

1099
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 9: Just do that.

1100
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 6: Andya was saying, no, we're not doing that one anymore.

1101
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:16,400
Speaker 4: Let's look at this map. So this is C five.

1102
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:17,359
Speaker 4: If we could put this.

1103
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 5: Up on the screen, Ryan, can you explain what we're

1104
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 5: what we're looking at, especially for people who are listening

1105
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:27,280
Speaker 5: to because this is fairly interesting.

1106
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:27,759
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1107
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 6: So this is Nanyahu during his very long press conference

1108
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:37,239
Speaker 6: the other day where he's laying out his position on

1109
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:42,720
Speaker 6: uh not being willing to leave the Rafa border crossing,

1110
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:47,239
Speaker 6: and anybody with any familiarity of the region, we can

1111
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:49,880
Speaker 6: look at that and be like, seems to be something

1112
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 6: missing there.

1113
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:55,240
Speaker 3: Entire West Bank, entire West Bank.

1114
00:55:56,680 --> 00:56:01,160
Speaker 6: Right before October seventh, he gave a present at the

1115
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:05,560
Speaker 6: UN where he put up a similar map that didn't

1116
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 6: even have Gaza. Then like that one, at least this one,

1117
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:10,880
Speaker 6: I guess has has the Gaza strip still there? It

1118
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 6: has to because he's talking about the Gaza strip.

1119
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 3: But that is the Like.

1120
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 6: What what critics have said is that this map represents

1121
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:25,920
Speaker 6: Netnyahu's vision, and in fact, the vision of greater Israeli

1122
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:28,400
Speaker 6: extends even further, goes back like there there are still

1123
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:33,360
Speaker 6: huge factions within Israeli body politic that think that giving

1124
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:39,240
Speaker 6: back the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt in the seventies was

1125
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 6: a mistaken that they still need to like that's that.

1126
00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 3: Deep into Lebanon.

1127
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,760
Speaker 6: And Syria, that this is all you know, greater Israeli,

1128
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:52,279
Speaker 6: you know, territory by just God given writer, natural writer,

1129
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 6: whatever it is. So yeah, so when when people saw

1130
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 6: him put up another map after taking so much heat

1131
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:00,960
Speaker 6: internationally for the last one, then he put up that

1132
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:02,759
Speaker 6: didn't include either the West Bank or Gaza. This one

1133
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:04,759
Speaker 6: he puts up doesn't include West Bank or like God.

1134
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:09,279
Speaker 5: Meanwhile, here in the States, it's the first day, or

1135
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:12,240
Speaker 5: was the first day of classes at Columbia University, obviously

1136
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:16,680
Speaker 5: the center of the widespread campus protest. Really it was

1137
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 5: the center of the momentum as protests fanned out across campuses.

1138
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 5: And we can start rolling this clip that if you're

1139
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:26,000
Speaker 5: listening to it, what you're going to see is the

1140
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 5: alma mater statue at Columbia University being drenched in red

1141
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 5: paint meant to look like blood. And this is going

1142
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 5: to play out in some interesting ways. I'm very curious

1143
00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 5: how this plays out in the fall, because to the

1144
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 5: conversation we were just having, there is really no light

1145
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 5: at the end of this tunnel and there's really no

1146
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 5: end in sight. There seems like there's no path to

1147
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 5: cease fire in sight, no matter how much the Biden administration.

1148
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:56,480
Speaker 5: Biden insists that we're getting closer and closer. We've been

1149
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:59,240
Speaker 5: hearing that, obviously, over and over again for months, so

1150
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 5: this could take off. And the other news to mention

1151
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 5: we can put C seven up on the screen is

1152
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:08,640
Speaker 5: in the United Kingdom amid pressures, not unlike pressures from

1153
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 5: the left in the United States, they have decided to

1154
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:14,280
Speaker 5: suspend some arms to Israel.

1155
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 4: That's what the Reuter's headline says.

1156
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 5: UK decision to suspend some arms for Israel frustrates both sides,

1157
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 5: and it's pretty apparent why that would frustrate both sides. So, Brian,

1158
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:26,920
Speaker 5: this is the way that this is playing out in

1159
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:31,040
Speaker 5: the West, as we keep hearing we're just centimeters away

1160
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 5: from a ceasefire, and everyone kind of is calling bs

1161
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 5: on that.

1162
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:37,439
Speaker 4: I mean, everyone kind of knows that.

1163
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 3: And if you look at the right.

1164
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:43,760
Speaker 6: The reporting out of Israel's at Naniaho is genuinely starting

1165
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 6: to feel some pressure. If you look at his public statements,

1166
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:51,440
Speaker 6: he doesn't seem like he's willing to bend on this.

1167
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 6: It's also September, so we're now two months away from

1168
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:58,880
Speaker 6: a presidential election, in which he might think, who knows,

1169
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:02,640
Speaker 6: now it's you. You know, he's one of those politicians

1170
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:04,880
Speaker 6: you live to see another day. Now he's two months

1171
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:08,760
Speaker 6: away from a who knows moment? So at that point

1172
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 6: you think, well, why why I greet anything now?

1173
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1174
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:15,520
Speaker 3: If I can just slow walk it into November totally.

1175
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:20,120
Speaker 5: I mean, the way that these external pressures are affecting negotiations,

1176
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:23,320
Speaker 5: we don't have super clear information on yet, but we

1177
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:27,600
Speaker 5: can guess, you can sort of surmise what might be

1178
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:31,520
Speaker 5: affecting it. And obviously Netanyahu Christlin Sager covered this, but

1179
00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:34,840
Speaker 5: hundreds of thousands of people general Stike strike in cities

1180
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:38,960
Speaker 5: like Tel Aviv, taking to the streets, similar crowd. This

1181
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:40,960
Speaker 5: was either I read this in another ap R Reuters.

1182
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 5: I thought this was an interesting bit of information. Pretty

1183
00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:46,520
Speaker 5: similar crowd in terms of overlap between people who were

1184
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 5: trying to protest his were protesting his attempt at judicial reform,

1185
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:55,440
Speaker 5: So anti net and Yahoo people, but the anti net

1186
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 5: and Yahoo people after October seventh were not immediately.

1187
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:01,640
Speaker 4: Still anti yes, that's for sure.

1188
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:07,240
Speaker 5: So pressure is certainly looming over his decision making too. Yeah,

1189
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:09,880
Speaker 5: all right, Ryan, you have some reporting to share.

1190
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 4: Let's get to that.

1191
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:16,360
Speaker 6: So after the IDF discovery of six hostages who'd been

1192
01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:19,040
Speaker 6: killed in a tunnel in Gaza, Hamas released a video

1193
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:22,800
Speaker 6: of Idan Yuroshami speaking to the camera. It was a

1194
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:26,240
Speaker 6: cold display of cruelty to Adon's loved ones, who were

1195
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:31,120
Speaker 6: only beginning to process her tragic and needless death. In

1196
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 6: the video, which is undated, Dan tells her family how

1197
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 6: much she misses them and Lambastnyahu for the relentless bombing

1198
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 6: campaign and for failing to free the hostages. The New

1199
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:46,400
Speaker 6: York Times rightly cited human rights groups in condemning Hamas's

1200
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:50,400
Speaker 6: production of the hostage video, writing quote, rights groups and

1201
01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:53,680
Speaker 6: international law experts say that a hostage video is by

1202
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:57,480
Speaker 6: definition made under duress, and that the statements in it

1203
01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:00,960
Speaker 6: are usually coerced. Israeli officials have called the video a

1204
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:05,080
Speaker 6: form of quote, psychological warfare, and experts say their production

1205
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:07,600
Speaker 6: can constitute a war crime unquote.

1206
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 3: I agree.

1207
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:13,400
Speaker 6: Now, let's take that moral clarity and apply some moral consistency.

1208
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:17,920
Speaker 6: Earlier this year, former Facebook executive Cheryl Sandberg produced a

1209
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:21,680
Speaker 6: documentary that was screened at the White House and on

1210
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:23,520
Speaker 6: Capitol Hill last.

1211
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:28,440
Speaker 13: Year, Hamas committed horrific acts of sexual violence. Cheryon, I

1212
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:30,960
Speaker 13: thank you for all your work to bring to light

1213
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 13: the horrors of this issue, and for your film about

1214
01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:36,160
Speaker 13: what happened on October seven.

1215
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:40,640
Speaker 6: The way that Sandberg proved her case shockingly was significantly

1216
01:01:40,960 --> 01:02:08,240
Speaker 6: through the use of coerced interrogation videos. Tom The documentary,

1217
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:11,160
Speaker 6: of course, won praise in the pages of the New

1218
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:14,480
Speaker 6: York Times and is to this day sitting on the

1219
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:17,800
Speaker 6: White House website. The White House website now says quote

1220
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:21,160
Speaker 6: Preventing and responding to conflict related sexual violence is a

1221
01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:24,040
Speaker 6: top priority for President Biden and Vice President Harris. Since

1222
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 6: October seventh, President Biden, Vice President Harris, and our entire

1223
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:31,440
Speaker 6: administration have consistently condemned hamas horrific sexual violence. June seventeenth,

1224
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:33,880
Speaker 6: the Vice President hosted an event at the White House

1225
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:36,680
Speaker 6: which included a panel discussion and remarks by advocates and

1226
01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:39,280
Speaker 6: survivors of crs FEE from around the world, and a

1227
01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:43,360
Speaker 6: partial screening of Sheryl Sandberg's documentary Screens Before Silence on

1228
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 6: Hamas's sexual violence. On October seventh, now AMC International, a

1229
01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:51,920
Speaker 6: human rights watch, bets Salem, and Physicians for Human Rights

1230
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:56,240
Speaker 6: Israel all rejected the use of hostage interrogation videos in

1231
01:02:56,280 --> 01:03:00,600
Speaker 6: the months after October seventh, and most news outlets chose

1232
01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:03,240
Speaker 6: to reject their use as well, citing the likelihood the

1233
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 6: confessions were extracted by torture. Eryl Sandberg, the White House,

1234
01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:11,760
Speaker 6: and Hamas have all gone a different direction. The innocent

1235
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:16,760
Speaker 6: people caught in the middle deserve so much better. And Emily,

1236
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:19,840
Speaker 6: it was so infuriating to me to see Hamas post

1237
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:22,880
Speaker 6: those photos of the hostages after they were killed and

1238
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:27,320
Speaker 6: post the video as well, And then it reminded me

1239
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:31,000
Speaker 6: that the New York Times, the White House and others,

1240
01:03:31,560 --> 01:03:34,480
Speaker 6: as CNN has had Sandberg go one to talk about

1241
01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:37,840
Speaker 6: this documentary, has said absolutely nothing about the fact that

1242
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:42,640
Speaker 6: she so prominently relied on these coerce interrogation videos and

1243
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 6: Coerce is doing a lot of work there in euphemistically

1244
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 6: describing what bets Aalem, the Israel Human Rights Organization calls, you.

1245
01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:55,560
Speaker 3: Know, hell on Earth, like their.

1246
01:03:56,480 --> 01:04:00,360
Speaker 6: Recent report on Israeli detention centers is called Welcome to Hell,

1247
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:05,760
Speaker 6: and it describes the systematic torture and sexual violence that

1248
01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 6: is doled out to policity and detainees to then while

1249
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:16,240
Speaker 6: they're still in custody, to use interrogations of them. And also,

1250
01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:19,560
Speaker 6: by the way, the press has tried to follow up

1251
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:23,120
Speaker 6: on a lot of these quote unquote confessions that were

1252
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:26,960
Speaker 6: produced by these IDF videos, and even the ones that

1253
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:31,240
Speaker 6: have extraordinary amounts of detail, they have never been able

1254
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 6: to find any remote substantiation. I like, if the story

1255
01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:39,200
Speaker 6: is told by those men and those coerced confession videos

1256
01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:42,160
Speaker 6: were true, you would think you'd be able to find

1257
01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:46,760
Speaker 6: a victim that somewhat matches the descriptions because the descriptions

1258
01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:50,360
Speaker 6: are so clear and precise and nothing. And so that's

1259
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:53,440
Speaker 6: why human rights groups and the media in general don't

1260
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:56,480
Speaker 6: rely on these and it's why Hamas should never have

1261
01:04:56,520 --> 01:04:58,360
Speaker 6: posted that video, and it's why the White House should

1262
01:04:58,360 --> 01:04:59,400
Speaker 6: be deeply ashamed of itself.

1263
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:04,440
Speaker 3: From my perspect of playing those playing those videos.

1264
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:10,920
Speaker 5: Of having played the Sandberg, Yeah, yeah, I struggle with

1265
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:16,160
Speaker 5: this a lot, a lot, because, on the one hand,

1266
01:05:16,680 --> 01:05:19,240
Speaker 5: I mean, maybe it's okay to just not have a

1267
01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:22,080
Speaker 5: strong opinion on this, because I'm not sure that I do,

1268
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:24,520
Speaker 5: and it's very.

1269
01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:26,200
Speaker 3: You're forgiven for that you.

1270
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:27,200
Speaker 14: But no.

1271
01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:30,360
Speaker 5: I mean the reason I say that is I almost

1272
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:33,320
Speaker 5: feel like, I'm curious what you think about this. The

1273
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 5: Hamas videos and the confession videos, the alleged confession videos

1274
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:41,440
Speaker 5: are apples and oranges, if that makes sense, that like

1275
01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:45,360
Speaker 5: what Hamas did with this is so different than even

1276
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:48,880
Speaker 5: if like totally as, I do accept the argument that

1277
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:52,840
Speaker 5: those may well have been coerced out of torture, I

1278
01:05:52,840 --> 01:05:57,200
Speaker 5: still feel like Hamas is publishing of the hostage videos

1279
01:05:57,200 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 5: before they killed these people that they had taken hostage.

1280
01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:03,480
Speaker 5: It just seems to me like they're different things. But

1281
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:05,000
Speaker 5: I don't know, I'm curious what you think about that.

1282
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:05,800
Speaker 3: Maybe not.

1283
01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:10,480
Speaker 6: We don't know without seeing evidence and without a trial,

1284
01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:15,800
Speaker 6: whether the people, the Palestinians and those videos had anything

1285
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:17,120
Speaker 6: to do with Hamas or pij.

1286
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:20,280
Speaker 3: They might, but they also might not.

1287
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:22,320
Speaker 4: They may they may well have done all of those.

1288
01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:25,120
Speaker 4: They may well drivers Because one thing we know.

1289
01:06:25,200 --> 01:06:32,560
Speaker 5: Is that there were absolutely inexcusable and reprehensible, disgusting acts

1290
01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:35,720
Speaker 5: of violence on October seventh. Then maybe those guys were

1291
01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:36,360
Speaker 5: part of that.

1292
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:42,320
Speaker 3: But that's so crazy. There was horrific violence on October seventh, that.

1293
01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:43,800
Speaker 4: Is on camera.

1294
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:50,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, innocent civilians were slaughtered. The need to ratchet up

1295
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:56,280
Speaker 6: to something different is something that I never quite understood.

1296
01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:58,440
Speaker 6: It's like, it's horrible.

1297
01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:03,760
Speaker 4: And there's always some thing to there's always something to.

1298
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:13,640
Speaker 5: Upholding these standards of decency and civilization and morality that

1299
01:07:14,240 --> 01:07:18,440
Speaker 5: are then undermined consistently by countries in the West. Or

1300
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:20,840
Speaker 5: the quote that I've always gone back to since October

1301
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:23,760
Speaker 5: seventh has nothing to do with it, is that Ollie

1302
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:26,200
Speaker 5: North quote in his memoir where he talks about and

1303
01:07:26,200 --> 01:07:28,360
Speaker 5: actually the Israelis are involved in it, where he talks

1304
01:07:28,360 --> 01:07:31,320
Speaker 5: about how, you know, the worst thing for him was

1305
01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:34,440
Speaker 5: that the US was doing exactly what it was telling

1306
01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:35,720
Speaker 5: other countries not to do and was.

1307
01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:37,560
Speaker 4: Saying that it wasn't doing right.

1308
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:40,720
Speaker 6: And now Israel's is caught in this like public debate

1309
01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:45,680
Speaker 6: with defending the use of sexual violence by IDF soldiers

1310
01:07:45,720 --> 01:07:50,040
Speaker 6: against Palestinians in prisons. Yes, it's an incredible general round.

1311
01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:52,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely agree on that part.

1312
01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:55,720
Speaker 3: No, it is a Sheryl Sandberg documentary about that yet.

1313
01:07:55,720 --> 01:07:58,600
Speaker 5: Not yet, but just a very like I know that

1314
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:00,560
Speaker 5: I said, I don't have a super opinion on this,

1315
01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:04,760
Speaker 5: but I think there's a really provocative and worthwhile point,

1316
01:08:05,040 --> 01:08:07,640
Speaker 5: and I'm glad that you caught it so we could

1317
01:08:07,640 --> 01:08:09,040
Speaker 5: talk about it all right.

1318
01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:12,600
Speaker 6: Up next, we're gonna have Jeffrey Sachs and Matt Tayibi

1319
01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:17,080
Speaker 6: in what is sure to be a fascinating conversation about

1320
01:08:17,200 --> 01:08:19,440
Speaker 6: the roots of the Ukraine conflict.

1321
01:08:19,720 --> 01:08:23,360
Speaker 4: Absolutely well, for.

1322
01:08:23,360 --> 01:08:25,559
Speaker 5: What is sure to be a fascinating segment, Ryan and

1323
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:29,160
Speaker 5: I are excited to be joined this morning by Jeffrey Sachs,

1324
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:31,080
Speaker 5: the one and only Ryan.

1325
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:32,639
Speaker 4: What are we gonna be talking about today?

1326
01:08:33,280 --> 01:08:35,960
Speaker 6: So first of all, we're gonna start start with Ukraine,

1327
01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:38,400
Speaker 6: and then we're going to back up into how we

1328
01:08:38,439 --> 01:08:41,439
Speaker 6: got to the situation that we're in now. People may

1329
01:08:41,479 --> 01:08:44,880
Speaker 6: remember a couple of months ago, uh, Matt Tayibi was

1330
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:48,400
Speaker 6: on the program, and in a kind of offhanded way,

1331
01:08:49,760 --> 01:08:52,479
Speaker 6: Matt and I were talking about the role that we

1332
01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:55,800
Speaker 6: understood that doctor Jeffrey Sachs had played in the in

1333
01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:58,320
Speaker 6: the Soviet Union, in the post Soviet Union, a transition

1334
01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:03,960
Speaker 6: into Russia derogatory terms, and said, what a remarkable kind

1335
01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:06,960
Speaker 6: of journey it had been for doctor Sachs to have

1336
01:09:07,040 --> 01:09:09,479
Speaker 6: gotten to kind of where he is now, somebody who's

1337
01:09:09,520 --> 01:09:15,639
Speaker 6: often challenging power, and that was that that was from

1338
01:09:15,720 --> 01:09:18,759
Speaker 6: what we understood, just from the kind of pop culture

1339
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:21,800
Speaker 6: that we were raised in at the time. I'm glad

1340
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:24,679
Speaker 6: that Professor Sachs reached out and said, look, I'm happy

1341
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:27,840
Speaker 6: to come on and talk about what actually happened during

1342
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:30,360
Speaker 6: that time. We're hopefully going to be joined by Matt

1343
01:09:30,360 --> 01:09:32,960
Speaker 6: Taib as well, who lived in Russia at that time,

1344
01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:36,920
Speaker 6: has done enormous amount of writing on that question. Doctor

1345
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:40,679
Speaker 6: Sax has written an essay for us over at drop

1346
01:09:40,720 --> 01:09:43,599
Speaker 6: site News, which we'll be publishing later today. It will

1347
01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:47,479
Speaker 6: also be published over at Matt Tayeb's Racket. But we

1348
01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:49,880
Speaker 6: want to start with the latest in Ukraine because this

1349
01:09:50,080 --> 01:09:52,880
Speaker 6: is related to everything that we're talking about. So we

1350
01:09:52,920 --> 01:09:55,280
Speaker 6: can put this first element up on the screen. That

1351
01:09:55,320 --> 01:10:02,439
Speaker 6: you've got Ukrainian President Vladimore Zelenski condemning Russia for a

1352
01:10:02,520 --> 01:10:08,080
Speaker 6: strike killing more than fifty and meanwhile saying that the

1353
01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:13,120
Speaker 6: Ukrainians have no designs whatsoever on leaving Russian territory that

1354
01:10:13,240 --> 01:10:14,639
Speaker 6: they have recently conquered.

1355
01:10:14,840 --> 01:10:16,320
Speaker 3: Let's roll this clip from Zolanski.

1356
01:10:16,720 --> 01:10:20,680
Speaker 14: Now you've captured this territory in Russia, so the big

1357
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:22,880
Speaker 14: question is what do you plan to do with it

1358
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:25,360
Speaker 14: Narisk territory.

1359
01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:30,560
Speaker 15: We don't need the Russian territory. Operation is aimed to

1360
01:10:30,600 --> 01:10:37,519
Speaker 15: restore our territorial integrity. We capture Russian troops to replace

1361
01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:41,120
Speaker 15: them with the Ukrainian We tell them, you know, we

1362
01:10:41,200 --> 01:10:47,519
Speaker 15: need our military soldiers in exchange with the Russian. The

1363
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:51,280
Speaker 15: same attitude is to the territories, we don't need their land.

1364
01:10:52,040 --> 01:10:54,679
Speaker 3: Is the plan to take more territory?

1365
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:55,599
Speaker 9: I will not tell.

1366
01:10:56,240 --> 01:10:58,240
Speaker 3: Sorry, I can't speak about it.

1367
01:10:59,160 --> 01:11:04,360
Speaker 8: Is it's like the beginning of hour this course operation.

1368
01:11:04,960 --> 01:11:08,000
Speaker 3: With all the respects, I can't speak about it.

1369
01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:13,080
Speaker 13: I think that the success is very close to surprise.

1370
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:17,120
Speaker 3: But conceptually you have this territory. Now you say you

1371
01:11:17,120 --> 01:11:19,559
Speaker 3: don't want to keep it long. Conceptually we will hold it.

1372
01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:22,000
Speaker 3: Conceptually we will hold it.

1373
01:11:22,160 --> 01:11:24,200
Speaker 6: And meanwhile there's a split screen going on on the

1374
01:11:24,240 --> 01:11:26,960
Speaker 6: front line. If we can put up this third element

1375
01:11:27,000 --> 01:11:30,360
Speaker 6: from the economists, they say, even as it humiliates Russia,

1376
01:11:30,479 --> 01:11:34,360
Speaker 6: Ukraine's line is crumbling in the domebos chock rate inside

1377
01:11:34,400 --> 01:11:37,599
Speaker 6: Kursk has not distracted the Kremlin from advancing. So you've

1378
01:11:37,600 --> 01:11:40,760
Speaker 6: got Russia advancing in ways that we have seen them

1379
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:44,160
Speaker 6: over the past year. Even as this incursion is succeeding

1380
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:48,639
Speaker 6: gaining ground inside Russia. So, Professor Sachs, what is yours,

1381
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:52,000
Speaker 6: somebody who's been following this extraordinarily closely, what is your

1382
01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:54,120
Speaker 6: assessment of where we are today?

1383
01:11:55,600 --> 01:12:02,280
Speaker 14: Ukraine is losing on the battlefield. Zelensky's government is in

1384
01:12:02,320 --> 01:12:08,479
Speaker 14: its last legs, maybe even its last moments actually, because

1385
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:12,840
Speaker 14: the contact line, the front line, is in a state

1386
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:18,599
Speaker 14: of collapse for Ukraine. Not surprisingly, this whole war was

1387
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:25,719
Speaker 14: misconceived and generally falsely reported by the mainstream Western media

1388
01:12:25,800 --> 01:12:29,280
Speaker 14: because Ukraine could not win this war, and it is

1389
01:12:29,560 --> 01:12:36,120
Speaker 14: in fact losing one to two thousand soldiers every day

1390
01:12:36,240 --> 01:12:39,280
Speaker 14: now to death or serious wounds.

1391
01:12:40,080 --> 01:12:41,759
Speaker 9: This is a disaster underway.

1392
01:12:41,840 --> 01:12:46,120
Speaker 14: It's hidden from view by the official narratives of the

1393
01:12:46,240 --> 01:12:52,480
Speaker 14: US government and the British government, especially by NATO spokespeople.

1394
01:12:53,200 --> 01:12:56,120
Speaker 14: But this is a disaster, and it's a disaster that

1395
01:12:56,240 --> 01:13:02,080
Speaker 14: was largely caused by the United States. Logically, again, basic

1396
01:13:02,240 --> 01:13:06,799
Speaker 14: facts that are hidden from view. But the US walked

1397
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:10,720
Speaker 14: Ukraine into this disaster, and some of us have been

1398
01:13:10,760 --> 01:13:15,120
Speaker 14: saying this for years, and now it's becoming a plain

1399
01:13:15,439 --> 01:13:23,160
Speaker 14: as day as Russia advances on the battlefield. So Zelenski,

1400
01:13:23,479 --> 01:13:28,320
Speaker 14: he's either delusional or just doing what he does. He's

1401
01:13:28,400 --> 01:13:30,120
Speaker 14: an actor who plays his part.

1402
01:13:30,720 --> 01:13:35,839
Speaker 5: That's probably a great time to start looking back, because actually,

1403
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:38,519
Speaker 5: I imagine you have a lot of thoughts on the

1404
01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:42,000
Speaker 5: days after the fall of the Soviet Union, how poorly

1405
01:13:42,479 --> 01:13:45,680
Speaker 5: Western media reported on it, and how poorly they sort

1406
01:13:45,680 --> 01:13:49,840
Speaker 5: of understood what NATO and others were doing at the time. So,

1407
01:13:50,280 --> 01:13:52,320
Speaker 5: doctor Sex, I guess maybe one good place to start

1408
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:56,920
Speaker 5: on that question is what does Western media get wrong

1409
01:13:56,960 --> 01:14:00,679
Speaker 5: and why are they so bad at reporting the truth,

1410
01:14:01,640 --> 01:14:05,479
Speaker 5: the reality of what happens between Russia and now other

1411
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:08,120
Speaker 5: countries in Eastern Europe.

1412
01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:13,879
Speaker 14: Well, what Western media, in the mainstream do is report

1413
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:17,600
Speaker 14: the official narrative. So the question really is what is

1414
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:21,360
Speaker 14: the US government get so wrong? And then why is

1415
01:14:21,400 --> 01:14:25,160
Speaker 14: it parroted by the New York Times or the Washington

1416
01:14:25,240 --> 01:14:31,280
Speaker 14: Post or the other mainstream media. What the US government

1417
01:14:31,280 --> 01:14:38,000
Speaker 14: has gotten wrong all along since nineteen eighty nine, or

1418
01:14:38,439 --> 01:14:42,000
Speaker 14: I would say since nineteen forty five, is the idea

1419
01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:47,400
Speaker 14: that there could be peaceful relations with Russia, just normal, cooperative,

1420
01:14:47,560 --> 01:14:54,360
Speaker 14: peaceful relations. But from the first moments after the defeat

1421
01:14:54,400 --> 01:14:58,639
Speaker 14: of Nazi Germany in nineteen forty five, the US government

1422
01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:04,519
Speaker 14: did prepare for war with the Soviet Union, turned on

1423
01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:07,640
Speaker 14: what was an ally during the war and made it

1424
01:15:07,680 --> 01:15:13,480
Speaker 14: to the Great Enemy. We came close to global annihilation

1425
01:15:13,960 --> 01:15:17,680
Speaker 14: between nineteen forty five and nineteen eighty nine. In the

1426
01:15:17,720 --> 01:15:23,080
Speaker 14: Cold War, I played a role as a much younger

1427
01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:28,440
Speaker 14: economist in the late nineteen eighties and early nineteen nineties.

1428
01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:31,920
Speaker 14: As the Cold War was ending, or so I thought,

1429
01:15:32,400 --> 01:15:38,400
Speaker 14: I advised the Polish government, I advised the Gorbachev the government,

1430
01:15:38,720 --> 01:15:42,200
Speaker 14: his economic team. I advised the ELTs In government, I

1431
01:15:42,240 --> 01:15:46,000
Speaker 14: advised the Kuchma government of Ukraine. So I was there

1432
01:15:46,720 --> 01:15:51,200
Speaker 14: during that period front row seats at least, and what

1433
01:15:51,439 --> 01:15:56,280
Speaker 14: I saw was that the United States was eager to

1434
01:15:56,400 --> 01:16:00,360
Speaker 14: cooperate and to support the lights of Poland, for exams ample,

1435
01:16:00,560 --> 01:16:05,440
Speaker 14: or the Central European countries that had been under the

1436
01:16:05,479 --> 01:16:10,120
Speaker 14: Soviet sphere and Soviet domination, but when it came to

1437
01:16:10,400 --> 01:16:15,400
Speaker 14: the Soviet Union and then later to Russia, that remained

1438
01:16:15,439 --> 01:16:18,120
Speaker 14: an enemy even at the end of the Cold War,

1439
01:16:18,439 --> 01:16:23,080
Speaker 14: completely contrary to what I saw, what I understood, what

1440
01:16:23,160 --> 01:16:27,559
Speaker 14: I believed till today, that what Gorbachev and Yeltsen were

1441
01:16:28,320 --> 01:16:34,880
Speaker 14: offering was normalcy, peace, cooperation, the chance for a very

1442
01:16:34,920 --> 01:16:39,320
Speaker 14: different and vastly safer world. Well, the United States would

1443
01:16:39,400 --> 01:16:42,400
Speaker 14: have none of it. In fact, what the US wanted

1444
01:16:42,560 --> 01:16:48,600
Speaker 14: was domination. It wanted hegemony, it wanted full spectrum dominance.

1445
01:16:48,640 --> 01:16:53,040
Speaker 14: As the Defense Department famously put it, what the US

1446
01:16:53,160 --> 01:16:58,040
Speaker 14: wanted was expanding NATO, even breaking apart Russia, because that

1447
01:16:58,200 --> 01:17:02,519
Speaker 14: was a part of the CI ideas that we can

1448
01:17:03,240 --> 01:17:08,200
Speaker 14: intervene in the periphery of Russia and perhaps break it

1449
01:17:08,240 --> 01:17:10,960
Speaker 14: apart on ethnic lines, just like the Soviet Union had

1450
01:17:11,000 --> 01:17:15,520
Speaker 14: broken apart. So this is what I did not understand

1451
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:17,840
Speaker 14: as I was trying to give economic advice at the

1452
01:17:17,960 --> 01:17:20,639
Speaker 14: end of the nineteen eighties and early nineties. My advice

1453
01:17:20,880 --> 01:17:25,479
Speaker 14: was help help the Soviet Union, help Russia. Help because

1454
01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:32,559
Speaker 14: that's what I understand good economics and good geopolitics and

1455
01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:39,320
Speaker 14: security to be. But all my recommendations were rejected. Basically,

1456
01:17:39,360 --> 01:17:42,200
Speaker 14: whenever I said help the Soviet Union or help Russia,

1457
01:17:42,280 --> 01:17:44,680
Speaker 14: no are you kidding, No way we're going to do that.

1458
01:17:45,479 --> 01:17:48,439
Speaker 14: And I didn't quite believe them that they would be

1459
01:17:48,520 --> 01:17:51,160
Speaker 14: so blind to the usefulness of this.

1460
01:17:51,280 --> 01:17:53,360
Speaker 9: But you know, if you look back and.

1461
01:17:54,880 --> 01:17:59,040
Speaker 14: Now, with a lot of documents that are have been exposed,

1462
01:17:59,080 --> 01:18:03,799
Speaker 14: and explained we never ended the Cold War in nineteen

1463
01:18:03,880 --> 01:18:08,439
Speaker 14: ninety one, we continued to prosecute the war against Russia. Already,

1464
01:18:08,520 --> 01:18:13,440
Speaker 14: by nineteen ninety four, in the Clinton administration, the decision

1465
01:18:13,560 --> 01:18:18,160
Speaker 14: was taken that NATO would enlarge, contrary to promises solemnly

1466
01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:22,839
Speaker 14: given in nineteen ninety to Gorbachev and to the Russian leaders,

1467
01:18:23,000 --> 01:18:26,400
Speaker 14: to Yeltsin and others, that we would not move one

1468
01:18:26,479 --> 01:18:31,920
Speaker 14: inch eastward. Nineteen ninety four, Clinton already agrees not only

1469
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:35,880
Speaker 14: will NATO move eastward, it will move to Ukraine, to

1470
01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:38,680
Speaker 14: the two thousand, one hundred kilometer.

1471
01:18:38,280 --> 01:18:40,600
Speaker 9: Border with Russia.

1472
01:18:40,640 --> 01:18:44,160
Speaker 14: And that is the provocation that has gotten us into

1473
01:18:44,240 --> 01:18:44,880
Speaker 14: this mess.

1474
01:18:44,960 --> 01:18:48,559
Speaker 6: And this period to me, nineteen eighty nine to nineteen

1475
01:18:48,600 --> 01:18:50,880
Speaker 6: ninety four or so is to me one of the

1476
01:18:50,880 --> 01:18:55,040
Speaker 6: great hinge moments in world history, because you can quite

1477
01:18:55,600 --> 01:18:58,400
Speaker 6: easily imagine a world in which the United States has

1478
01:18:58,400 --> 01:19:01,840
Speaker 6: a relationship with any country that is similar to that

1479
01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:04,160
Speaker 6: that we have would say Germany or Japan. I mean,

1480
01:19:04,200 --> 01:19:07,719
Speaker 6: we're in a cataclysmic world war with Germany and Japan.

1481
01:19:07,760 --> 01:19:09,599
Speaker 3: And here we are, you know, some.

1482
01:19:09,520 --> 01:19:13,680
Speaker 6: Decades later, you know, there's some tensions here and there

1483
01:19:13,720 --> 01:19:15,960
Speaker 6: when it comes to trade and other foreign policy. But

1484
01:19:16,000 --> 01:19:18,720
Speaker 6: in general we're allies with those countries. There's no there's

1485
01:19:18,720 --> 01:19:20,599
Speaker 6: no chance we're really going to war with either it

1486
01:19:20,640 --> 01:19:21,479
Speaker 6: at any time soon.

1487
01:19:21,920 --> 01:19:25,400
Speaker 3: So welcoming. You know, Matt Taibe, who was a journalist in.

1488
01:19:26,160 --> 01:19:28,639
Speaker 4: So materialized out of thin air the time.

1489
01:19:29,880 --> 01:19:32,920
Speaker 6: So I know that you lived through this period and

1490
01:19:32,960 --> 01:19:36,919
Speaker 6: you were equally fascinated by this, this piece that Professor

1491
01:19:36,960 --> 01:19:39,479
Speaker 6: Sachs has written for us. I woantn't to ask you

1492
01:19:39,520 --> 01:19:41,320
Speaker 6: if you wanted to ask him to tease a few

1493
01:19:41,360 --> 01:19:43,519
Speaker 6: parts of it out or yeah.

1494
01:19:43,560 --> 01:19:47,120
Speaker 16: First of all, hello, professor, and thanks for coming on

1495
01:19:47,280 --> 01:19:50,960
Speaker 16: joining us, of course with this discussion. I was really

1496
01:19:50,960 --> 01:19:54,920
Speaker 16: amazed by some of the things in this essay. Could

1497
01:19:54,960 --> 01:19:58,439
Speaker 16: you talk first about you know, you advised Yegor guy

1498
01:19:58,520 --> 01:20:00,640
Speaker 16: Dar I believe he was still the Prime Minister of

1499
01:20:00,640 --> 01:20:02,280
Speaker 16: the Soviet Union at the time.

1500
01:20:02,680 --> 01:20:04,160
Speaker 9: Now he was Prime Minister of Russia.

1501
01:20:04,200 --> 01:20:10,160
Speaker 14: Guidark I advised Lynsky earlier, who was the economic advisor

1502
01:20:10,200 --> 01:20:11,599
Speaker 14: to Gorbachev.

1503
01:20:11,520 --> 01:20:14,000
Speaker 16: Right, and I'm sorry, okay, this was in November ninety one,

1504
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:16,120
Speaker 16: but you advised him to go to the G seven

1505
01:20:16,439 --> 01:20:22,200
Speaker 16: and ask for debt stabilization. What happened when he did that.

1506
01:20:23,800 --> 01:20:28,840
Speaker 14: Basically, you know, when I was asked to come help,

1507
01:20:29,200 --> 01:20:31,160
Speaker 14: why would they ask me for all the you know,

1508
01:20:31,680 --> 01:20:34,880
Speaker 14: for God's sake? And the answer was that I knew

1509
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:40,320
Speaker 14: something about the financial stabilization and financial crises, and I

1510
01:20:40,360 --> 01:20:43,720
Speaker 14: had a view that by the way, went back to

1511
01:20:44,520 --> 01:20:50,400
Speaker 14: John Maynard Keynes, who was the great British economist who

1512
01:20:50,439 --> 01:20:54,920
Speaker 14: was involved in the Versailles negotiations after World War One.

1513
01:20:55,000 --> 01:20:59,080
Speaker 14: He said, don't make a harsh settlement. You'll pay for

1514
01:20:59,120 --> 01:21:04,200
Speaker 14: that later. Very prescient, very powerful analysis. I was very

1515
01:21:04,240 --> 01:21:08,160
Speaker 14: much influenced by that as a young economist, and I said,

1516
01:21:08,240 --> 01:21:11,960
Speaker 14: don't make a harsh piece and don't let the Soviet

1517
01:21:12,080 --> 01:21:16,320
Speaker 14: Union or Russia spiral into a deep financial crisis. Well,

1518
01:21:16,360 --> 01:21:18,680
Speaker 14: they had a deep financial crisis, that's why things were

1519
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:22,280
Speaker 14: falling apart. And they asked me help us get out

1520
01:21:22,320 --> 01:21:26,320
Speaker 14: of this financial crisis. And I took the normal tools

1521
01:21:26,360 --> 01:21:31,200
Speaker 14: of the trade, for example, saying you need to not

1522
01:21:31,439 --> 01:21:35,840
Speaker 14: pay the debt temporarily at least maybe permanently, but you

1523
01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:39,280
Speaker 14: need a debt standstill. In other words, you're running out

1524
01:21:39,280 --> 01:21:43,760
Speaker 14: of money. You're in the deepest crisis. This is a

1525
01:21:44,200 --> 01:21:50,360
Speaker 14: historic moment of profound significance. I'm talking about nineteen ninety one.

1526
01:21:51,080 --> 01:21:56,040
Speaker 14: Russia is about to become an independent and wants to

1527
01:21:56,080 --> 01:22:00,720
Speaker 14: be a democratic country. My god, this is phenomen so,

1528
01:22:00,840 --> 01:22:05,160
Speaker 14: this is a big deal. So get some space on

1529
01:22:05,200 --> 01:22:07,960
Speaker 14: your debt, because you don't have financial reserves. You're in

1530
01:22:08,320 --> 01:22:13,879
Speaker 14: deep financial crisis. That's what I suggested to Yegor Gaidar,

1531
01:22:14,160 --> 01:22:18,200
Speaker 14: who was then the head of the economic team for

1532
01:22:18,360 --> 01:22:22,160
Speaker 14: Boris Yeltsen, who was about to become president of an

1533
01:22:22,560 --> 01:22:27,479
Speaker 14: independent Russia. And it was the kind of advice I

1534
01:22:27,479 --> 01:22:31,200
Speaker 14: had given to Poland two years earlier, which had worked

1535
01:22:31,560 --> 01:22:34,559
Speaker 14: to stabilize Poland's economy, and the kind of advice I

1536
01:22:34,560 --> 01:22:38,559
Speaker 14: had given a few years earlier than that to help

1537
01:22:38,640 --> 01:22:41,599
Speaker 14: end a hyperinflation in South America.

1538
01:22:41,880 --> 01:22:44,120
Speaker 9: Now I gave it to Guidar.

1539
01:22:44,360 --> 01:22:48,519
Speaker 14: I sat in the Anti Anti room as he walked

1540
01:22:48,560 --> 01:22:52,080
Speaker 14: into meet with the so called G seven deputies, that

1541
01:22:52,160 --> 01:22:56,160
Speaker 14: means the finance ministry deputies are, in the case of

1542
01:22:56,200 --> 01:23:02,400
Speaker 14: the US, the US Treasury under secretary or Deputy secretary.

1543
01:23:03,840 --> 01:23:04,760
Speaker 9: On finance.

1544
01:23:05,880 --> 01:23:11,600
Speaker 14: And this was a key meeting in November nineteen ninety one,

1545
01:23:12,120 --> 01:23:16,479
Speaker 14: and I sat in the ante room, and he came

1546
01:23:16,520 --> 01:23:22,080
Speaker 14: out ashen face and yegor what happened, he said, They

1547
01:23:22,160 --> 01:23:26,040
Speaker 14: told me, you pay every penny of interest as it

1548
01:23:26,080 --> 01:23:29,240
Speaker 14: falls due, or we stopped the shipments of food on

1549
01:23:29,320 --> 01:23:35,160
Speaker 14: the high seas that are coming as emergency relief for you. Unbelievable,

1550
01:23:35,880 --> 01:23:38,160
Speaker 14: but that's actually the advice.

1551
01:23:38,720 --> 01:23:39,880
Speaker 9: That's what they did.

1552
01:23:40,040 --> 01:23:42,519
Speaker 14: By the way, they continued to pay until they went

1553
01:23:42,560 --> 01:23:47,200
Speaker 14: into default early in nineteen ninety two because they literally

1554
01:23:47,640 --> 01:23:51,200
Speaker 14: ran out foreign exchange reserve, so they went to zero.

1555
01:23:52,240 --> 01:23:56,960
Speaker 14: And then massive crisis came and the US is just

1556
01:23:57,000 --> 01:24:02,120
Speaker 14: sitting there. I thought sucking its thumb was even worse

1557
01:24:02,160 --> 01:24:07,599
Speaker 14: than that. It was watching a crisis unfold with no

1558
01:24:08,000 --> 01:24:10,800
Speaker 14: real intention to do much about it.

1559
01:24:10,840 --> 01:24:12,640
Speaker 9: As far as I'm concerned.

1560
01:24:12,640 --> 01:24:20,080
Speaker 14: Because nobody I thought it was ignorance, delay, bureaucratic ineptitude.

1561
01:24:20,840 --> 01:24:23,640
Speaker 14: But it turned out to be a persistent policy that

1562
01:24:23,680 --> 01:24:26,800
Speaker 14: the US was just not going to help. What it

1563
01:24:26,880 --> 01:24:30,960
Speaker 14: was going to do was build US power in the region.

1564
01:24:31,400 --> 01:24:34,599
Speaker 14: It was going to expand NATO, it was going to

1565
01:24:34,720 --> 01:24:37,559
Speaker 14: make its demands. It was going to tell Russia, yeah,

1566
01:24:37,600 --> 01:24:42,080
Speaker 14: you can be a player, listen to us, join our team,

1567
01:24:42,479 --> 01:24:46,360
Speaker 14: do what we say, don't complain. That was the idea

1568
01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:51,760
Speaker 14: of US foreign policy beginning in nineteen ninety one ninety two,

1569
01:24:52,680 --> 01:24:56,360
Speaker 14: but it was in a way a continuation from nineteen

1570
01:24:56,479 --> 01:25:01,680
Speaker 14: forty five. Interestingly, and I need to men back in

1571
01:25:01,760 --> 01:25:05,000
Speaker 14: nineteen forty five we were allies with the Soviet Union

1572
01:25:05,040 --> 01:25:08,719
Speaker 14: against Hitler, and the Soviet Union had lost twenty seven

1573
01:25:08,840 --> 01:25:15,280
Speaker 14: million people. This unbelievable disaster had borne the brunt of

1574
01:25:15,320 --> 01:25:22,960
Speaker 14: defeating the German army, and within weeks or months of

1575
01:25:23,000 --> 01:25:27,400
Speaker 14: the end of World War Two, we started to hire

1576
01:25:28,600 --> 01:25:33,120
Speaker 14: German Nazi scientists, those of course who had made the

1577
01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:41,280
Speaker 14: two missile systems, German warfare specialists who had tortured inmates

1578
01:25:41,920 --> 01:25:45,920
Speaker 14: and killed inmates and concentration camps, done human experiments.

1579
01:25:46,439 --> 01:25:47,679
Speaker 9: We took them on.

1580
01:25:47,920 --> 01:25:52,040
Speaker 14: Because the idea already in nineteen forty five, and then

1581
01:25:52,080 --> 01:25:54,680
Speaker 14: it just built in forty six, in forty seven and

1582
01:25:54,760 --> 01:25:58,280
Speaker 14: forty eight was the next enemy is the Soviet Union.

1583
01:25:58,400 --> 01:26:02,479
Speaker 14: We need to prepare for total war. So this idea

1584
01:26:03,040 --> 01:26:08,240
Speaker 14: is very deep seated in America. But I thought, hey,

1585
01:26:08,520 --> 01:26:11,760
Speaker 14: I could not have been more thrilled in nineteen eighty

1586
01:26:11,880 --> 01:26:15,479
Speaker 14: nine ninety ninety one to be witnessing the birth of

1587
01:26:15,640 --> 01:26:18,439
Speaker 14: worldwide peace in front of my eyes.

1588
01:26:18,960 --> 01:26:21,000
Speaker 9: But we just wouldn't habit the end.

1589
01:26:20,960 --> 01:26:22,840
Speaker 6: Of his story and one of the So there's kind

1590
01:26:22,840 --> 01:26:24,920
Speaker 6: of multiple layers of the scandal and the way that

1591
01:26:24,960 --> 01:26:28,160
Speaker 6: the Western world treated Russia. One of those is the

1592
01:26:28,160 --> 01:26:30,559
Speaker 6: macro level that you talked about kind of driving them

1593
01:26:30,920 --> 01:26:33,719
Speaker 6: into one of the greatest you know, maybe the greatest

1594
01:26:33,720 --> 01:26:36,240
Speaker 6: financial collapse in world history.

1595
01:26:36,680 --> 01:26:38,519
Speaker 9: I wouldn't say that, but a big one, big, a

1596
01:26:38,520 --> 01:26:38,920
Speaker 9: big one.

1597
01:26:39,240 --> 01:26:40,679
Speaker 3: This is a big one, very big one.

1598
01:26:40,840 --> 01:26:42,759
Speaker 6: But then the second one is on the micro level,

1599
01:26:43,240 --> 01:26:47,600
Speaker 6: the extraordinary theft and corruption around the around the privatization

1600
01:26:47,920 --> 01:26:51,439
Speaker 6: of national industries. And you've gotten lumped into that sometimes

1601
01:26:51,439 --> 01:26:54,680
Speaker 6: because the Harvard Institute for International Development, which you were

1602
01:26:54,720 --> 01:26:59,760
Speaker 6: involved with, had some of its members involved with that.

1603
01:27:00,640 --> 01:27:01,479
Speaker 3: So can you talk.

1604
01:27:01,320 --> 01:27:06,200
Speaker 6: About that connection, like who was involved with that? And

1605
01:27:06,280 --> 01:27:09,800
Speaker 6: I know you're write in the essay that anyway, just

1606
01:27:10,120 --> 01:27:11,040
Speaker 6: you go ahead and tell them.

1607
01:27:11,280 --> 01:27:15,920
Speaker 14: Yeah, just very very briefly. My gig and my side

1608
01:27:16,920 --> 01:27:23,760
Speaker 14: of the work was finance and macroeconomics. I'm an international

1609
01:27:23,960 --> 01:27:30,160
Speaker 14: finance economist by training. I had stopped the hyperinflation, I

1610
01:27:30,200 --> 01:27:35,120
Speaker 14: had helped cancel debts, I had helped Bolivia to get

1611
01:27:35,160 --> 01:27:38,280
Speaker 14: back on its feet. I was asked to help bring

1612
01:27:38,320 --> 01:27:42,600
Speaker 14: in Western money to help stabilize the situation in the

1613
01:27:42,640 --> 01:27:47,160
Speaker 14: Soviet Union in nineteen ninety ninety one. That didn't work

1614
01:27:47,160 --> 01:27:50,120
Speaker 14: because the White House turned it down flat, the whole idea.

1615
01:27:50,520 --> 01:27:53,960
Speaker 14: And then again for Yelson, where I thought this is

1616
01:27:54,040 --> 01:27:58,280
Speaker 14: a slam dunk. Now we have an independent Russia, post communists, democratic,

1617
01:27:58,720 --> 01:27:59,320
Speaker 14: all the rest.

1618
01:27:59,439 --> 01:28:02,040
Speaker 9: I thought it was slam dunk. They turned that down again.

1619
01:28:02,600 --> 01:28:08,000
Speaker 14: I was not part of privatization and I was not

1620
01:28:08,400 --> 01:28:11,759
Speaker 14: asked to be frankly, because there were other people involved

1621
01:28:11,800 --> 01:28:14,640
Speaker 14: to didn't really even want me to be involved.

1622
01:28:14,720 --> 01:28:16,080
Speaker 9: Okay, that's fine.

1623
01:28:16,560 --> 01:28:21,120
Speaker 14: So I was doing my thing, not succeeding because I

1624
01:28:21,160 --> 01:28:26,200
Speaker 14: couldn't convince Washington about any of this, by the way,

1625
01:28:26,240 --> 01:28:30,000
Speaker 14: which was really strange for me, because what I had

1626
01:28:30,040 --> 01:28:33,800
Speaker 14: recommended in Poland had worked, and so I was saying,

1627
01:28:33,880 --> 01:28:37,679
Speaker 14: it's the same, multiply by four, you know, it's bigger country.

1628
01:28:38,160 --> 01:28:40,680
Speaker 14: But they said, no, no, we're not doing that.

1629
01:28:41,040 --> 01:28:43,360
Speaker 9: No, we're not doing that. It was very strange.

1630
01:28:43,400 --> 01:28:50,760
Speaker 14: Now on the privatization, I was not part of strategy

1631
01:28:51,120 --> 01:28:56,000
Speaker 14: or even asked. I had my own views which were

1632
01:28:56,120 --> 01:29:01,080
Speaker 14: very very different, but it wasn't my BAILI wick I

1633
01:29:01,439 --> 01:29:05,439
Speaker 14: actually after a year of trying to help yelts and

1634
01:29:05,479 --> 01:29:08,400
Speaker 14: I told him I can't help you know, they're not interested.

1635
01:29:08,439 --> 01:29:09,400
Speaker 9: I can't be helpful for you.

1636
01:29:09,439 --> 01:29:13,240
Speaker 14: I can't bring any money to Russia to help the stabilization.

1637
01:29:14,640 --> 01:29:18,040
Speaker 14: A new finance minister was appointed at the end of

1638
01:29:18,120 --> 01:29:22,559
Speaker 14: nineteen ninety two, and he begged, a very nice person

1639
01:29:22,640 --> 01:29:24,559
Speaker 14: named Boris Fyodorov, who died young.

1640
01:29:26,439 --> 01:29:28,479
Speaker 9: He begged me, please stay, please help.

1641
01:29:28,560 --> 01:29:34,200
Speaker 14: So I stayed another year, completely ineffectually, because the Western

1642
01:29:34,320 --> 01:29:38,800
Speaker 14: idea was quite different the US government idea of the

1643
01:29:38,840 --> 01:29:42,080
Speaker 14: imf ID and so forth. So I stayed and then

1644
01:29:42,120 --> 01:29:45,160
Speaker 14: I resigned at the end of nineteen ninety three. The

1645
01:29:45,320 --> 01:29:52,559
Speaker 14: big things that created the oligarchs were things like eight

1646
01:29:52,920 --> 01:29:58,360
Speaker 14: Shares for Loans scandal of nineteen ninety five ninety six,

1647
01:29:58,720 --> 01:30:04,640
Speaker 14: which by the way, was also part of financing Yeltsin's

1648
01:30:04,680 --> 01:30:09,920
Speaker 14: re election campaign at that time. So I was nowhere

1649
01:30:09,960 --> 01:30:14,000
Speaker 14: nearby at all in any of that, except that I

1650
01:30:14,040 --> 01:30:17,720
Speaker 14: knew the people and the players. One of them described

1651
01:30:17,720 --> 01:30:22,280
Speaker 14: to me laughing how the whole Shares for Loan's thing

1652
01:30:22,439 --> 01:30:28,080
Speaker 14: had gone down, and I found it disgusting, corrupt, gross.

1653
01:30:28,920 --> 01:30:32,400
Speaker 14: So I called US government officials and imf and World

1654
01:30:32,479 --> 01:30:35,840
Speaker 14: Bank officials. I said, well, maybe it's like the line

1655
01:30:35,840 --> 01:30:39,479
Speaker 14: in Casablanca. There's corruption going on in this place. There's

1656
01:30:39,560 --> 01:30:42,679
Speaker 14: ampling going on in this place. But I was serious,

1657
01:30:42,760 --> 01:30:45,000
Speaker 14: you know, you really need to look into that, and

1658
01:30:45,080 --> 01:30:47,840
Speaker 14: I just got blank stares back, because of course they

1659
01:30:47,920 --> 01:30:51,160
Speaker 14: knew what was going on, but they weren't interested. Well,

1660
01:30:51,360 --> 01:30:53,600
Speaker 14: I took a lot of shit for that, if I

1661
01:30:53,640 --> 01:30:55,200
Speaker 14: can say that on your show.

1662
01:30:55,600 --> 01:30:57,719
Speaker 9: Four years completely the opposite.

1663
01:30:57,760 --> 01:31:01,519
Speaker 14: I was the one trying to say stuff, but of

1664
01:31:01,520 --> 01:31:03,480
Speaker 14: course I wasn't on the inside.

1665
01:31:03,560 --> 01:31:06,120
Speaker 9: I wasn't anywhere near.

1666
01:31:06,240 --> 01:31:10,080
Speaker 14: But I was trying to push the USG and World

1667
01:31:10,120 --> 01:31:13,679
Speaker 14: Bank and IMF to stop it then. And I actually

1668
01:31:13,720 --> 01:31:17,719
Speaker 14: don't want to go into details because it's thirty years

1669
01:31:17,800 --> 01:31:21,880
Speaker 14: later and its personalities and so forth. But some of

1670
01:31:21,920 --> 01:31:26,040
Speaker 14: my colleagues didn't do the right thing at Harvard and

1671
01:31:26,600 --> 01:31:29,559
Speaker 14: they messed up, and its public record and people can

1672
01:31:29,720 --> 01:31:34,439
Speaker 14: look it up, and it was an unpleasant experience. It

1673
01:31:34,680 --> 01:31:40,080
Speaker 14: was part of my responsibility to tell them that they

1674
01:31:40,120 --> 01:31:44,880
Speaker 14: were in trouble, but it wasn't my responsibility to do

1675
01:31:44,920 --> 01:31:49,120
Speaker 14: anything about it. But again, I was a very known person,

1676
01:31:49,880 --> 01:31:53,240
Speaker 14: and so I was lumped together as the Harvard boys

1677
01:31:53,280 --> 01:31:57,280
Speaker 14: do Russia. Okay, you know this is media. You guys

1678
01:31:57,320 --> 01:32:02,200
Speaker 14: are the world's authorities on this media. Once you got

1679
01:32:02,240 --> 01:32:04,880
Speaker 14: the media, you can't fight the media when you get

1680
01:32:04,920 --> 01:32:11,400
Speaker 14: the waves of slogans that are so good. So truly,

1681
01:32:12,600 --> 01:32:15,240
Speaker 14: let me say two things. The big part of this

1682
01:32:15,360 --> 01:32:21,800
Speaker 14: story is that the US didn't want to help and

1683
01:32:21,880 --> 01:32:26,400
Speaker 14: didn't help in the nineteen nineties on the economic side.

1684
01:32:27,040 --> 01:32:29,800
Speaker 14: But there's a second part of this story which is

1685
01:32:29,880 --> 01:32:34,160
Speaker 14: more important, which is that even with that, even with

1686
01:32:34,280 --> 01:32:38,120
Speaker 14: the financial crisis that Russia went through, which was very painful,

1687
01:32:38,240 --> 01:32:42,160
Speaker 14: even with the default of nineteen ninety eight that Russia

1688
01:32:42,320 --> 01:32:47,639
Speaker 14: went through, which was very painful. Putin was not anti

1689
01:32:47,840 --> 01:32:52,040
Speaker 14: American or anti West or anti Europe when he came

1690
01:32:52,120 --> 01:32:52,639
Speaker 14: to power.

1691
01:32:53,160 --> 01:32:54,599
Speaker 9: He wasn't in.

1692
01:32:54,439 --> 01:32:56,800
Speaker 14: Love with the US, let me put it that way,

1693
01:32:57,120 --> 01:33:01,680
Speaker 14: but he wanted normal relations even then. This did not

1694
01:33:02,040 --> 01:33:05,000
Speaker 14: set things in an inevitable course.

1695
01:33:05,320 --> 01:33:08,360
Speaker 9: It didn't help. But the real.

1696
01:33:08,400 --> 01:33:12,680
Speaker 14: Changes that put things in a disastrous course were on

1697
01:33:12,720 --> 01:33:17,439
Speaker 14: the security side, first the expansion of NATO, then the

1698
01:33:17,479 --> 01:33:22,879
Speaker 14: bombing of Belgrade in nineteen ninety nine, seventy eight straight

1699
01:33:22,960 --> 01:33:28,680
Speaker 14: days of some hair brained, terrible scheme of Madeline Albright,

1700
01:33:29,320 --> 01:33:33,680
Speaker 14: and to break apart Serbia, which was Russia's ally, and

1701
01:33:33,840 --> 01:33:39,160
Speaker 14: create Kosovo and put the largest NATO military based Bonda

1702
01:33:39,200 --> 01:33:44,160
Speaker 14: Skiel in Kosovo to cover Southeast Europe.

1703
01:33:45,000 --> 01:33:48,240
Speaker 9: Okay, Putin watched that. He didn't like that at all.

1704
01:33:48,960 --> 01:33:52,040
Speaker 14: Then came nine to eleven and Putin said, okay, we

1705
01:33:52,120 --> 01:33:54,320
Speaker 14: want to cooperate with you, we can help, we also

1706
01:33:54,439 --> 01:33:55,600
Speaker 14: face insurgencies.

1707
01:33:56,000 --> 01:33:56,720
Speaker 9: We don't like this.

1708
01:33:57,280 --> 01:34:00,519
Speaker 14: The US more or less brushed Russia off at that point.

1709
01:34:00,760 --> 01:34:04,479
Speaker 14: In two thousand and two, the US did something even

1710
01:34:04,560 --> 01:34:08,800
Speaker 14: more provocative and profound, which was to abandon the Anti.

1711
01:34:08,600 --> 01:34:09,920
Speaker 9: Ballistic Missile Treaty.

1712
01:34:10,320 --> 01:34:17,839
Speaker 14: This for Russia was a first class security disaster because

1713
01:34:17,880 --> 01:34:21,479
Speaker 14: the ABM treaty was viewed as a protection against the

1714
01:34:21,720 --> 01:34:26,360
Speaker 14: US nuclear first strike. And this was viewed in an

1715
01:34:26,400 --> 01:34:31,040
Speaker 14: incredibly harsh way by Russia, and it is a massive danger.

1716
01:34:31,360 --> 01:34:34,400
Speaker 14: Then immediately in two thousand and three came the Iraq

1717
01:34:34,520 --> 01:34:40,320
Speaker 14: invasion over Russia's absolute objections, over the UN Security Council

1718
01:34:40,680 --> 01:34:44,560
Speaker 14: absolute objections. Then in two thousand and four came a

1719
01:34:44,640 --> 01:34:51,520
Speaker 14: NATO enlargement to seven more countries, including the three Baltic states, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania,

1720
01:34:51,720 --> 01:34:56,120
Speaker 14: including two Black Sea countries. Bulgarian Romania and including two

1721
01:34:56,160 --> 01:35:01,000
Speaker 14: Balkans countries, Slovakia and Slovenia. So one thousand and seven,

1722
01:35:01,240 --> 01:35:05,880
Speaker 14: then the temperature was up to hear and President Putin

1723
01:35:05,960 --> 01:35:10,400
Speaker 14: gave at the Munich Security Conference a very strong message

1724
01:35:10,560 --> 01:35:15,439
Speaker 14: stop this, stop this. You are pressing right up against

1725
01:35:15,600 --> 01:35:16,879
Speaker 14: our red lines.

1726
01:35:16,960 --> 01:35:18,160
Speaker 9: Do not go further.

1727
01:35:19,280 --> 01:35:23,040
Speaker 14: And then famously, in two thousand and eight, the US

1728
01:35:23,080 --> 01:35:27,000
Speaker 14: announced a policy that had actually been adopted fourteen years earlier,

1729
01:35:27,000 --> 01:35:30,320
Speaker 14: but it made it public, which was the demand that

1730
01:35:30,479 --> 01:35:34,560
Speaker 14: NATO would enlarge to Ukraine and to Georgia.

1731
01:35:34,520 --> 01:35:39,000
Speaker 9: In the Caucuses. And this for Russia was unbelievable.

1732
01:35:39,479 --> 01:35:43,000
Speaker 14: Now Russia would be surrounded by NATO in the Black

1733
01:35:43,080 --> 01:35:48,280
Speaker 14: Sea region, and European leaders at the time called me privately.

1734
01:35:48,439 --> 01:35:52,200
Speaker 14: I had long conversations, what is your president doing? This

1735
01:35:52,240 --> 01:35:55,120
Speaker 14: is so reckless, so provocative. By the way, many of

1736
01:35:55,160 --> 01:35:58,320
Speaker 14: these same leaders now are completely mum, we love the

1737
01:35:58,439 --> 01:36:01,639
Speaker 14: United States. This has nothing to do with NATO. This war,

1738
01:36:01,880 --> 01:36:04,519
Speaker 14: of course, it's about NATO. The whole thing is about NATO.

1739
01:36:04,560 --> 01:36:07,559
Speaker 14: It's always been about NATO. And this was true in

1740
01:36:07,560 --> 01:36:10,680
Speaker 14: two thousand and eight, and then quickly to bring this

1741
01:36:10,800 --> 01:36:17,000
Speaker 14: story up to date in twenty eleven. Again, these neocons

1742
01:36:17,080 --> 01:36:20,920
Speaker 14: doubled down. We're going to overthrow Syria, where Russia happens

1743
01:36:20,920 --> 01:36:25,599
Speaker 14: to have a naval base. We're going to overthrow Libya,

1744
01:36:26,320 --> 01:36:34,120
Speaker 14: where Russia has an ally. And we then took steps

1745
01:36:34,240 --> 01:36:40,080
Speaker 14: and in twenty fourteen overthrew the government of Ukraine. Victorianikovich

1746
01:36:40,360 --> 01:36:44,320
Speaker 14: February twenty second, twenty fourteen. This was a coup in

1747
01:36:44,360 --> 01:36:48,639
Speaker 14: which the US played a significant role. Sad to say,

1748
01:36:48,720 --> 01:36:50,920
Speaker 14: I saw some of it with my own eyes, which

1749
01:36:50,960 --> 01:36:52,920
Speaker 14: I did not want to see, but I did see

1750
01:36:52,960 --> 01:36:54,240
Speaker 14: some of it with my own eyes.

1751
01:36:54,280 --> 01:36:56,599
Speaker 9: The US was up to its neck in that coup,

1752
01:36:56,960 --> 01:36:58,640
Speaker 9: and of course the Russians knew it.

1753
01:36:58,720 --> 01:37:02,040
Speaker 14: They even did us a favor of intercepting Victoria Newlan's

1754
01:37:02,080 --> 01:37:07,479
Speaker 14: phone call with the US ambassador to Ukraine, Jeffrey Piat,

1755
01:37:07,479 --> 01:37:11,680
Speaker 14: who's now a senior State Department official. Victoria Newlan's my

1756
01:37:11,800 --> 01:37:14,560
Speaker 14: colleague at Columbia University.

1757
01:37:15,120 --> 01:37:17,160
Speaker 9: Unbelievably, and.

1758
01:37:19,360 --> 01:37:22,920
Speaker 16: Our guy call with that, that's the yachts is our

1759
01:37:23,000 --> 01:37:23,720
Speaker 16: guy call.

1760
01:37:23,880 --> 01:37:25,400
Speaker 9: That's the yachts is our guy call.

1761
01:37:25,520 --> 01:37:28,639
Speaker 14: And the reason I saw some of it is that

1762
01:37:29,680 --> 01:37:36,599
Speaker 14: yachts yachtsanook who became the US installed prime Minister called

1763
01:37:36,640 --> 01:37:39,360
Speaker 14: me said I want you to come talk to me

1764
01:37:39,400 --> 01:37:40,839
Speaker 14: about this economic crisis.

1765
01:37:40,880 --> 01:37:41,880
Speaker 9: I mean, oh my god.

1766
01:37:42,400 --> 01:37:45,320
Speaker 14: Well I knew Ukraine, I had advised Kuchma, I did

1767
01:37:45,360 --> 01:37:49,000
Speaker 14: not understand exactly what had happened by any means. So

1768
01:37:49,200 --> 01:37:51,960
Speaker 14: when Yachtsanook asked me to go there, I flew there

1769
01:37:52,240 --> 01:37:55,639
Speaker 14: and this was just I don't remember exactly a day

1770
01:37:55,880 --> 01:37:59,240
Speaker 14: or a few days after my dawn after the violent coup.

1771
01:38:00,120 --> 01:38:06,080
Speaker 14: And when I got there, American or somebody representing an

1772
01:38:06,120 --> 01:38:10,040
Speaker 14: American NGO said, you want to go see the Maidan

1773
01:38:10,160 --> 01:38:12,559
Speaker 14: because we have a few hours before the meeting with

1774
01:38:12,640 --> 01:38:15,879
Speaker 14: the Prime Minister. And when we went to the Maidan,

1775
01:38:16,160 --> 01:38:18,880
Speaker 14: they explained to me how much American money had gone

1776
01:38:18,880 --> 01:38:24,520
Speaker 14: into pumping up the Maidan. You know, I saw it. Literally,

1777
01:38:25,000 --> 01:38:28,120
Speaker 14: we gave fifty thousand to this one, five thousand of

1778
01:38:28,120 --> 01:38:34,000
Speaker 14: this one. So forth, this NGO extraordinarily unpleasant. I got

1779
01:38:34,000 --> 01:38:37,760
Speaker 14: the hell out of there that night. And this is

1780
01:38:37,800 --> 01:38:41,320
Speaker 14: the reality. So where did this war come from? It

1781
01:38:41,400 --> 01:38:45,960
Speaker 14: came from the fact that the US was we call

1782
01:38:46,040 --> 01:38:48,479
Speaker 14: it now Cold War two point zero, but it's really

1783
01:38:48,520 --> 01:38:51,799
Speaker 14: the same Cold War. It never really stopped. The US

1784
01:38:51,840 --> 01:38:56,240
Speaker 14: had a campaign well Russia is going to be second

1785
01:38:56,360 --> 01:39:01,320
Speaker 14: rate or maybe divided or decolonized, use a favorite word

1786
01:39:01,320 --> 01:39:06,000
Speaker 14: in Washington. But we're going to continue this effort because

1787
01:39:06,000 --> 01:39:09,120
Speaker 14: they're on the other side. You know, it turned out

1788
01:39:09,160 --> 01:39:12,240
Speaker 14: didn't have anything to do with Bolshevism, didn't have anything

1789
01:39:12,240 --> 01:39:14,439
Speaker 14: to do with communism, didn't have anything to do with

1790
01:39:14,479 --> 01:39:16,200
Speaker 14: democracy or not democracy.

1791
01:39:16,600 --> 01:39:18,400
Speaker 9: The US did.

1792
01:39:18,240 --> 01:39:22,960
Speaker 14: Not want a big power there except one completely subservient

1793
01:39:23,280 --> 01:39:25,600
Speaker 14: to the US.

1794
01:39:27,240 --> 01:39:30,559
Speaker 16: When do you think the Russian government figured that out?

1795
01:39:30,680 --> 01:39:32,479
Speaker 16: I mean, I know from living there at the time

1796
01:39:32,560 --> 01:39:36,240
Speaker 16: that sort of the ordinary person in Moscow or Saint Petersburg.

1797
01:39:37,479 --> 01:39:39,720
Speaker 16: Right after the collapse of the Soviet Union, there was

1798
01:39:39,760 --> 01:39:42,640
Speaker 16: a lot of hope and enthusiasm that there was going

1799
01:39:42,720 --> 01:39:46,479
Speaker 16: to be this glorious partnership with the United States. And

1800
01:39:46,920 --> 01:39:49,560
Speaker 16: you mentioned your hopes that there would be kind of

1801
01:39:49,560 --> 01:39:51,799
Speaker 16: a new Marshall Plan. I know that there were people

1802
01:39:52,880 --> 01:39:55,439
Speaker 16: in Russia who were kind of hoping the cavalry would

1803
01:39:55,439 --> 01:39:58,080
Speaker 16: come and help stabilize their economy and there would be this,

1804
01:39:58,720 --> 01:40:01,360
Speaker 16: you know, this new flower of a relationship. But it

1805
01:40:01,439 --> 01:40:04,320
Speaker 16: sounds like what you're saying and what you've written is

1806
01:40:04,360 --> 01:40:08,200
Speaker 16: that there was never any intention to really integrate Russia

1807
01:40:08,600 --> 01:40:13,519
Speaker 16: as any kind of democratic partner. I know, when the

1808
01:40:13,640 --> 01:40:16,800
Speaker 16: ordinary Russians started to feel that that that was going

1809
01:40:16,840 --> 01:40:20,080
Speaker 16: to not happen. I think Serbia was really a breaking

1810
01:40:20,120 --> 01:40:22,879
Speaker 16: point for them. But when do you think the Russians

1811
01:40:22,880 --> 01:40:25,160
Speaker 16: figured it out? Was it, you know, by the time

1812
01:40:25,520 --> 01:40:29,280
Speaker 16: Putin came to power, or before that, or when the

1813
01:40:29,400 --> 01:40:31,920
Speaker 16: relationship turns now or finally.

1814
01:40:31,600 --> 01:40:38,479
Speaker 14: I think, Look, the situation was very tough economically throughout

1815
01:40:38,479 --> 01:40:42,680
Speaker 14: this whole period. Gorbachev was reviled because of an economy

1816
01:40:42,720 --> 01:40:46,000
Speaker 14: that was in collapse already in the late nineteen eighties.

1817
01:40:46,479 --> 01:40:50,599
Speaker 14: Shortages were everywhere, prices were sore, and living standards were falling,

1818
01:40:50,800 --> 01:40:55,320
Speaker 14: so and there was tremendous disarray. When the Soviet Union ended,

1819
01:40:56,000 --> 01:40:59,960
Speaker 14: another dimension of disarray came because now you had fifteen

1820
01:41:00,160 --> 01:41:05,600
Speaker 14: success or states that couldn't even manage the mechanics of

1821
01:41:05,760 --> 01:41:09,600
Speaker 14: trade among each other, even though they were deeply interconnected

1822
01:41:10,479 --> 01:41:13,439
Speaker 14: in physical supply chains that used to be on the

1823
01:41:13,479 --> 01:41:18,400
Speaker 14: basis of orders from ghost plant from the State Planning ministry,

1824
01:41:18,400 --> 01:41:21,000
Speaker 14: but now that didn't exist anymore. So there weren't even

1825
01:41:21,080 --> 01:41:24,400
Speaker 14: mechanisms for trade. So for the person in the street,

1826
01:41:24,840 --> 01:41:30,559
Speaker 14: this was a terrible period. Very difficult, very dark from

1827
01:41:30,560 --> 01:41:35,000
Speaker 14: the start. Maybe they hoped the US would do something,

1828
01:41:35,040 --> 01:41:39,040
Speaker 14: and Bill Clin did smile a lot and did toast

1829
01:41:40,200 --> 01:41:44,000
Speaker 14: Yeltsin and so forth, but I don't think anyone felt

1830
01:41:44,000 --> 01:41:48,120
Speaker 14: too warmly about the United States. I thought it was

1831
01:41:49,320 --> 01:41:51,880
Speaker 14: inevitable that we would help, because how could we not.

1832
01:41:52,200 --> 01:41:56,120
Speaker 14: The opportunity was so great, And so I said to

1833
01:41:56,160 --> 01:41:59,760
Speaker 14: President Yeltson in December nineteen ninety one, of course, we're

1834
01:41:59,760 --> 01:42:02,360
Speaker 14: going to help. He said, we want to be a

1835
01:42:02,439 --> 01:42:05,240
Speaker 14: normal country, we want to have good relations. I said,

1836
01:42:05,240 --> 01:42:07,320
Speaker 14: of course, and we're going to help. It's going to

1837
01:42:07,320 --> 01:42:13,320
Speaker 14: be wonderful, so I thought. And I'm a little slow

1838
01:42:13,360 --> 01:42:16,720
Speaker 14: to learn, because I thought it was so right to do.

1839
01:42:17,600 --> 01:42:21,320
Speaker 14: I kept thinking, in twenty nineteen ninety two, they'll figure

1840
01:42:21,320 --> 01:42:24,080
Speaker 14: it out. In nineteen ninety three, Clinton's now and they'll

1841
01:42:24,120 --> 01:42:27,400
Speaker 14: figure it out. No, well they never figured that part out.

1842
01:42:27,800 --> 01:42:31,400
Speaker 14: What I did not know, of course, and didn't pay

1843
01:42:31,439 --> 01:42:35,040
Speaker 14: attention to at the time, was the NATO side that

1844
01:42:35,200 --> 01:42:43,080
Speaker 14: already basically they're planning the NATO enlargement, and now we

1845
01:42:43,160 --> 01:42:47,000
Speaker 14: know a lot more about the actual timing of that. Interestingly,

1846
01:42:47,040 --> 01:42:51,040
Speaker 14: as usual, there's a very pointed article by his big

1847
01:42:51,080 --> 01:42:55,880
Speaker 14: Brzinski in nineteen ninety seven published in Foreign Affairs magazine,

1848
01:42:55,920 --> 01:42:59,920
Speaker 14: where it's called a Strategy for Eurasia, and he lays

1849
01:43:00,080 --> 01:43:04,720
Speaker 14: out a timetable for NATO enlargement to Ukraine, which he

1850
01:43:04,760 --> 01:43:07,400
Speaker 14: says will be two thousand and five to twenty ten.

1851
01:43:08,439 --> 01:43:12,760
Speaker 14: Now it's clear he was reporting actual policy. He wasn't

1852
01:43:12,800 --> 01:43:16,080
Speaker 14: just putting forward a Brushinsky plan. He was reporting what

1853
01:43:16,280 --> 01:43:19,280
Speaker 14: Washington had settled on in fact.

1854
01:43:19,680 --> 01:43:21,759
Speaker 9: So I think things took time.

1855
01:43:22,160 --> 01:43:28,599
Speaker 14: But yel, I know that Putin was still optimistic about

1856
01:43:28,800 --> 01:43:33,320
Speaker 14: normal relations, good relations with Europe when he came to power,

1857
01:43:33,760 --> 01:43:37,840
Speaker 14: and even in the early two thousands. You know, he's

1858
01:43:37,920 --> 01:43:44,320
Speaker 14: a cynical guy for understandable reasons. And maybe he never expected,

1859
01:43:44,760 --> 01:43:47,080
Speaker 14: like I did, that the West would actually help.

1860
01:43:47,560 --> 01:43:49,920
Speaker 9: But he thought, okay, we could still live together.

1861
01:43:50,360 --> 01:43:55,560
Speaker 14: And I know many Western European leaders, like a wonderful

1862
01:43:55,680 --> 01:44:00,759
Speaker 14: Romano Proty, former Prime Minister of Italy and and former

1863
01:44:02,600 --> 01:44:06,920
Speaker 14: President of the European Union, who had very good relations

1864
01:44:07,000 --> 01:44:11,360
Speaker 14: with Putin, and Putin reciprocated the good relations, and it

1865
01:44:11,479 --> 01:44:15,800
Speaker 14: seemed just natural even in the early two thousands that

1866
01:44:15,880 --> 01:44:20,479
Speaker 14: things would be okay. And remember then in two thousand

1867
01:44:20,479 --> 01:44:23,879
Speaker 14: and three with the Iraq War, which the Russians hated.

1868
01:44:24,040 --> 01:44:28,840
Speaker 14: Of course, many European countries were at that point ready

1869
01:44:28,880 --> 01:44:33,320
Speaker 14: to express opposition to the US. France and Germany said no,

1870
01:44:33,840 --> 01:44:36,840
Speaker 14: this is a bad idea. So that was siding on

1871
01:44:36,880 --> 01:44:39,240
Speaker 14: the Russian side in a way. Now we have a

1872
01:44:39,320 --> 01:44:41,840
Speaker 14: full block where the US has put its foot down

1873
01:44:42,280 --> 01:44:48,080
Speaker 14: and every word you hear from Western European politicians is yes, NATO, yes, NATO, Yes,

1874
01:44:48,240 --> 01:44:50,960
Speaker 14: United States. But it wasn't like that in the early

1875
01:44:51,000 --> 01:44:54,560
Speaker 14: two thousands. So things got worse and worse overtime.

1876
01:44:54,840 --> 01:44:57,040
Speaker 6: And before you go, I wanted to get you to

1877
01:44:57,080 --> 01:45:01,639
Speaker 6: respond to the left wing critique of your time as

1878
01:45:02,040 --> 01:45:06,799
Speaker 6: an economists, both in Bolivia, Poland and beyond. Shock therapy

1879
01:45:06,880 --> 01:45:10,800
Speaker 6: became the name for this kind of series of neoliberal

1880
01:45:10,840 --> 01:45:15,120
Speaker 6: reforms that were applied to kind of run hyper countries

1881
01:45:15,120 --> 01:45:19,400
Speaker 6: that were facing hyper inflation. The argument being was too harsh,

1882
01:45:19,479 --> 01:45:23,280
Speaker 6: that it cut out too many government subsidies, that it

1883
01:45:23,600 --> 01:45:28,439
Speaker 6: broke the backs of kind of the stability that people

1884
01:45:28,760 --> 01:45:33,840
Speaker 6: needed and fueled inequality. That's the kind of Naomi Klein

1885
01:45:34,240 --> 01:45:37,559
Speaker 6: critique of shock therapy would be along those lines. What's

1886
01:45:37,640 --> 01:45:39,800
Speaker 6: your response? What was response at the time, how do

1887
01:45:39,840 --> 01:45:41,000
Speaker 6: you look back on it now?

1888
01:45:42,000 --> 01:45:46,400
Speaker 14: Well, my response at the time was, and it's fun

1889
01:45:46,479 --> 01:45:50,120
Speaker 14: for me to look back to an interview that I gave.

1890
01:45:50,000 --> 01:45:55,519
Speaker 9: To Lawrence Weschler Ran Weschler.

1891
01:45:55,479 --> 01:46:00,439
Speaker 14: In the New Yorker in nineteen eighty nine when I

1892
01:46:00,479 --> 01:46:05,040
Speaker 14: was advising Poland, and he asked me, you know, what

1893
01:46:05,120 --> 01:46:08,559
Speaker 14: are your views? I said, look, you know my favorite country, Sweden.

1894
01:46:09,360 --> 01:46:12,760
Speaker 14: I'm a social democrat. I have been a social democrat

1895
01:46:12,800 --> 01:46:17,840
Speaker 14: all along. So just to understand where I come from

1896
01:46:18,040 --> 01:46:22,679
Speaker 14: and what I advocate and what I believe today, I'm

1897
01:46:23,640 --> 01:46:28,759
Speaker 14: a kind of center left social democrat in the Scandinavian style.

1898
01:46:29,920 --> 01:46:35,160
Speaker 14: That's always been my economic approach and economic philosophy, and

1899
01:46:35,200 --> 01:46:41,360
Speaker 14: it was true then. I'm a specialist, was then and

1900
01:46:41,720 --> 01:46:47,240
Speaker 14: had some good results in ending hyperinflations. You don't end

1901
01:46:47,280 --> 01:46:50,880
Speaker 14: a hyperinflation by going from twenty four thousand percent this

1902
01:46:51,000 --> 01:46:55,799
Speaker 14: year to twelve thousand percent next year, to six thousand

1903
01:46:55,880 --> 01:46:58,880
Speaker 14: percent the year after, to three thousand percent.

1904
01:46:58,560 --> 01:46:59,160
Speaker 9: The year after.

1905
01:46:59,240 --> 01:47:04,960
Speaker 14: You actually it immediately, by the way, and not because

1906
01:47:05,000 --> 01:47:09,200
Speaker 14: it's draconian. Actually ending the hyperinflation is the basis for

1907
01:47:10,200 --> 01:47:13,959
Speaker 14: the society surviving. So by the time I got to Bolivia,

1908
01:47:14,000 --> 01:47:17,160
Speaker 14: there had been six years of utter chaos, and in

1909
01:47:17,200 --> 01:47:21,000
Speaker 14: the twelve months preceding my arrival, the inflation rate was

1910
01:47:21,160 --> 01:47:24,519
Speaker 14: twenty four thousand percent, which at the time was the

1911
01:47:24,600 --> 01:47:30,120
Speaker 14: seventh highest hyperinflation in world history. And I helped to

1912
01:47:30,280 --> 01:47:37,320
Speaker 14: end it, not by brutal means, but actually by the

1913
01:47:37,360 --> 01:47:51,600
Speaker 14: most normal way within a week, simply stopping a shambolic,

1914
01:47:53,479 --> 01:48:02,280
Speaker 14: disastrous mispricing of their one government resource, oil which was

1915
01:48:02,320 --> 01:48:05,800
Speaker 14: being given away to rich people, which was being exported

1916
01:48:05,840 --> 01:48:10,680
Speaker 14: on barges across Lake Titakaka, and the hyperinflation came to

1917
01:48:10,720 --> 01:48:15,320
Speaker 14: an end immediately. And to show you my philosophy and

1918
01:48:15,400 --> 01:48:20,080
Speaker 14: my belief, they had defaulted on their debt. This was

1919
01:48:20,120 --> 01:48:24,720
Speaker 14: a completely bankrupt country and the IMF said, okay, now

1920
01:48:24,760 --> 01:48:25,920
Speaker 14: you start paying your debts.

1921
01:48:26,520 --> 01:48:27,920
Speaker 9: And that's where I said.

1922
01:48:27,840 --> 01:48:31,320
Speaker 14: No way, this country is going to get debt cancelation.

1923
01:48:31,479 --> 01:48:35,599
Speaker 14: This is a poor country. It needs help urgently. This

1924
01:48:35,640 --> 01:48:40,400
Speaker 14: is not neoliberalism, excuse me. This is trying to help

1925
01:48:41,000 --> 01:48:45,640
Speaker 14: save a country that had fallen into one of the

1926
01:48:45,680 --> 01:48:49,640
Speaker 14: worst deepest crises.

1927
01:48:49,120 --> 01:48:51,880
Speaker 9: Of peacetime in history. And it worked.

1928
01:48:52,080 --> 01:48:56,320
Speaker 14: By the way they got the debts canceled. I will

1929
01:48:56,479 --> 01:49:00,679
Speaker 14: pat myself on the back to an important extent on that.

1930
01:49:01,200 --> 01:49:07,000
Speaker 14: And if you look at afterwards, I told them, you'll

1931
01:49:07,040 --> 01:49:14,080
Speaker 14: go from an impoverished country in disarray and hyperinflation to

1932
01:49:14,600 --> 01:49:17,400
Speaker 14: just an impoverished country, and then you have to start

1933
01:49:17,439 --> 01:49:21,760
Speaker 14: economic development after that. But that's the first step, is

1934
01:49:21,880 --> 01:49:28,479
Speaker 14: get out of this complete chaos. And in Poland, I

1935
01:49:28,640 --> 01:49:33,240
Speaker 14: was truly a social democrat in that they had and

1936
01:49:33,320 --> 01:49:37,599
Speaker 14: I expected afterwards they would have a more public health

1937
01:49:37,680 --> 01:49:40,200
Speaker 14: system than the United States, they would have a more

1938
01:49:40,240 --> 01:49:43,360
Speaker 14: public education system than the United States, they would have

1939
01:49:43,439 --> 01:49:44,920
Speaker 14: more social protection.

1940
01:49:44,640 --> 01:49:45,679
Speaker 9: Than the United States.

1941
01:49:45,960 --> 01:49:49,960
Speaker 14: But they were in a collapse. So they needed debt cancelation,

1942
01:49:50,040 --> 01:49:53,400
Speaker 14: which I helped them arrange. They needed an emergency stabilization,

1943
01:49:53,880 --> 01:49:57,320
Speaker 14: they needed a way out of a completely collapsed economy.

1944
01:49:57,640 --> 01:50:00,240
Speaker 14: And if you look at the results over the thirty

1945
01:50:00,320 --> 01:50:04,080
Speaker 14: years from nineteen eighty nine onward, I was only involved

1946
01:50:04,120 --> 01:50:06,439
Speaker 14: for the first three or four years, but it set

1947
01:50:06,439 --> 01:50:09,840
Speaker 14: the stage for the fastest economic growth in the history

1948
01:50:09,840 --> 01:50:14,680
Speaker 14: of Poland. And essentially, if you want one measure of that,

1949
01:50:14,960 --> 01:50:20,920
Speaker 14: one basic measure, look at Poland's per capita income compared

1950
01:50:20,960 --> 01:50:25,839
Speaker 14: to Germany in nineteen eighty nine. Poland's per capita income

1951
01:50:26,400 --> 01:50:30,160
Speaker 14: was about one third of the German level. Now it's

1952
01:50:30,200 --> 01:50:33,599
Speaker 14: about seventy percent of the German level. In other words,

1953
01:50:33,640 --> 01:50:37,520
Speaker 14: it didn't close the gap with Germany, but it substantially

1954
01:50:37,920 --> 01:50:41,960
Speaker 14: closed the gap. That's what you want, That's what I said.

1955
01:50:42,120 --> 01:50:45,640
Speaker 14: That's what you could hope for in economic development, that

1956
01:50:45,680 --> 01:50:51,120
Speaker 14: you will not only have stability, but a normal economy.

1957
01:50:51,200 --> 01:50:56,360
Speaker 14: It is, by the way, essentially a social democratic economy

1958
01:50:56,400 --> 01:51:02,160
Speaker 14: because national income going to government outlays for social protection,

1959
01:51:02,360 --> 01:51:05,520
Speaker 14: for health, for education, so forth, and for other purposes.

1960
01:51:05,560 --> 01:51:09,400
Speaker 14: Around forty percent of GDP, higher than the United States.

1961
01:51:09,760 --> 01:51:15,599
Speaker 14: So this is not the things that were said. By

1962
01:51:15,600 --> 01:51:18,479
Speaker 14: the way, I like Naomi Client a lot. I admire

1963
01:51:18,520 --> 01:51:24,800
Speaker 14: her work a lot. And what she wrote about the

1964
01:51:24,840 --> 01:51:28,640
Speaker 14: shock doctrine of the US, which is we're going to

1965
01:51:28,680 --> 01:51:31,280
Speaker 14: run the world and we're going to run it our way,

1966
01:51:31,520 --> 01:51:35,400
Speaker 14: I think it's accurate. I don't think she understood exactly

1967
01:51:35,439 --> 01:51:38,639
Speaker 14: what I was saying in trying to do in terms

1968
01:51:38,640 --> 01:51:47,160
Speaker 14: of macroeconomics. So I never really very much liked the confusion,

1969
01:51:47,800 --> 01:51:51,320
Speaker 14: but I appreciate your asking about it gives me the

1970
01:51:51,400 --> 01:51:53,799
Speaker 14: chance to explain. But I explained it back in nineteen

1971
01:51:53,840 --> 01:51:57,439
Speaker 14: eighty nine, I'm a social democrat. Then I'm pretty stubborn.

1972
01:51:57,520 --> 01:51:58,720
Speaker 14: I'm still a social.

1973
01:51:58,400 --> 01:52:02,000
Speaker 6: Democrat nowt I know you got to run pretty soon matter. Emily,

1974
01:52:02,040 --> 01:52:03,599
Speaker 6: any final questions or thoughts.

1975
01:52:03,680 --> 01:52:04,679
Speaker 4: I was just going to ask.

1976
01:52:04,600 --> 01:52:08,479
Speaker 5: Matt, reflecting even on our initial conversation in which you

1977
01:52:08,520 --> 01:52:11,200
Speaker 5: were reflecting on your experiences with your own front row

1978
01:52:11,240 --> 01:52:13,400
Speaker 5: seat to a lot of this that was transpiring in

1979
01:52:13,439 --> 01:52:16,360
Speaker 5: the nineties, if you have any thoughts on what we've

1980
01:52:16,360 --> 01:52:18,440
Speaker 5: heard from doctor Sachs during this conversation.

1981
01:52:19,360 --> 01:52:23,240
Speaker 16: Yeah, I guess I just have a general question, because

1982
01:52:23,240 --> 01:52:25,839
Speaker 16: I mean, when I was there for the whole decade

1983
01:52:25,840 --> 01:52:30,080
Speaker 16: of the nineties, and by the end of it, I

1984
01:52:30,120 --> 01:52:34,040
Speaker 16: know a lot of people in the expat community journalists

1985
01:52:34,040 --> 01:52:37,759
Speaker 16: were saying, you know, this Seis policy towards Russia so strange.

1986
01:52:37,760 --> 01:52:40,160
Speaker 16: It's almost like they're trying to screw things up, or

1987
01:52:40,200 --> 01:52:45,439
Speaker 16: that they're trying to destabilize this country. But it sounds

1988
01:52:45,479 --> 01:52:49,519
Speaker 16: like that might have actually been a plan security wise,

1989
01:52:49,600 --> 01:52:53,000
Speaker 16: or at least that they were indifferent to the consequence

1990
01:52:53,880 --> 01:52:57,000
Speaker 16: of policies within Russia. I mean, do you think it's

1991
01:52:57,080 --> 01:53:00,519
Speaker 16: logical to draw a straight line between what's going on

1992
01:53:00,600 --> 01:53:04,240
Speaker 16: right now the complete tension between these two countries, and

1993
01:53:04,400 --> 01:53:08,080
Speaker 16: you know, us being essentially, you know, in a proxy

1994
01:53:08,120 --> 01:53:11,759
Speaker 16: war with Russia to the end of the Soviet Union

1995
01:53:11,800 --> 01:53:14,320
Speaker 16: when we decided we were going to adopt this posture

1996
01:53:14,479 --> 01:53:18,000
Speaker 16: towards Russia. I mean, was there at any time a

1997
01:53:18,080 --> 01:53:20,960
Speaker 16: moment where we were actually trying to bring them in

1998
01:53:21,040 --> 01:53:23,960
Speaker 16: And you know, as any kind of partner.

1999
01:53:24,640 --> 01:53:26,880
Speaker 14: At first, We're not in a proxy war with it.

2000
01:53:26,960 --> 01:53:29,360
Speaker 14: We're in a hot war. We're in a real war.

2001
01:53:29,560 --> 01:53:38,120
Speaker 14: We are not only providing the weapons, the financing, the munitions,

2002
01:53:38,880 --> 01:53:45,920
Speaker 14: the targeting, the intelligence, but we have we have our

2003
01:53:46,880 --> 01:53:53,200
Speaker 14: personnel in Russia and Ukraine fighting this war also, not

2004
01:53:54,120 --> 01:53:57,559
Speaker 14: the soldiers in the uniforms and the boots on the ground,

2005
01:53:57,640 --> 01:54:01,040
Speaker 14: but there are a lot of US weapons systems that

2006
01:54:01,160 --> 01:54:04,920
Speaker 14: have the US support. We're in this war. The Russians

2007
01:54:04,960 --> 01:54:06,759
Speaker 14: know it. They say so every day.

2008
01:54:07,240 --> 01:54:11,400
Speaker 9: It is a terrible risk for the world that this

2009
01:54:11,600 --> 01:54:15,080
Speaker 9: is the case. It is so.

2010
01:54:17,000 --> 01:54:23,120
Speaker 14: Wrongheaded, unnecessary, and threatening that the United States is provoking

2011
01:54:23,479 --> 01:54:30,800
Speaker 14: directly militarily with attacks, a war with the only other

2012
01:54:30,880 --> 01:54:34,600
Speaker 14: nuclear superpower. The only thing that can threaten the United

2013
01:54:34,600 --> 01:54:37,400
Speaker 14: States and its security is nuclear war, which can end

2014
01:54:37,440 --> 01:54:45,040
Speaker 14: everything and everybody and we should understand respect some red

2015
01:54:45,080 --> 01:54:49,880
Speaker 14: lines of your nuclear superpower counterpart. So we don't get

2016
01:54:49,880 --> 01:54:54,960
Speaker 14: that until today. We're still playing chicken. We're still playing games,

2017
01:54:55,160 --> 01:54:59,120
Speaker 14: We're still making lies. Now, what was the US intent?

2018
01:55:00,040 --> 01:55:04,400
Speaker 14: Us intent was not per se to destabilize Russia. The

2019
01:55:04,520 --> 01:55:10,160
Speaker 14: US intent was US unipolarity. That the US will be

2020
01:55:10,320 --> 01:55:13,160
Speaker 14: the most powerful country in the world. It will have

2021
01:55:13,280 --> 01:55:20,440
Speaker 14: no rivals, it will have only essentially obedience to the

2022
01:55:20,600 --> 01:55:21,920
Speaker 14: US demands.

2023
01:55:22,280 --> 01:55:25,640
Speaker 9: That was the goal. It was thought through.

2024
01:55:25,680 --> 01:55:30,960
Speaker 14: Already by Cheney and Wolfowitz in the Defense documents of

2025
01:55:31,720 --> 01:55:37,000
Speaker 14: early nineteen ninety two, and it never really changed. The

2026
01:55:37,040 --> 01:55:44,840
Speaker 14: idea is full spectrum dominance, unipolarity, liberal hegemony terrible term

2027
01:55:44,880 --> 01:55:49,560
Speaker 14: because nothing liberal about it. Hegemony by the United States.

2028
01:55:49,600 --> 01:55:54,920
Speaker 14: So Russia, okay, maybe divided. I'm pretty convinced that the

2029
01:55:55,080 --> 01:56:00,160
Speaker 14: US has supported Chechen rebels, for example, to eat away

2030
01:56:00,200 --> 01:56:05,120
Speaker 14: at the Russian soft underbelly in the late nineteen nineties

2031
01:56:05,160 --> 01:56:08,720
Speaker 14: and early two thousands. The Russian say so, and I

2032
01:56:08,760 --> 01:56:11,000
Speaker 14: see a lot of evidence for it, because we had

2033
01:56:11,040 --> 01:56:14,680
Speaker 14: a lot of fancy people who were on the Czechshnia Committee.

2034
01:56:14,680 --> 01:56:17,560
Speaker 14: What do they know about Czechnia, Nothing except that they

2035
01:56:17,640 --> 01:56:21,200
Speaker 14: know that it is against Russia, and so we played

2036
01:56:21,320 --> 01:56:26,760
Speaker 14: a lot of dangerous games, mainly for what Brashinsky wanted,

2037
01:56:26,800 --> 01:56:30,160
Speaker 14: which was for Russia to be a second rate country,

2038
01:56:30,600 --> 01:56:35,800
Speaker 14: to stop being a superpower. And that was the gambit

2039
01:56:36,200 --> 01:56:40,760
Speaker 14: all along, because the United States in this so called

2040
01:56:40,920 --> 01:56:46,400
Speaker 14: unipolar moment, wants to rule alone. It's a madness and

2041
01:56:46,480 --> 01:56:52,120
Speaker 14: it's a delusion when you're talking about huge, powerful countries

2042
01:56:52,600 --> 01:56:59,200
Speaker 14: with thousands of nuclear warheads. But the US wanted its way,

2043
01:56:59,520 --> 01:57:02,720
Speaker 14: that's the point. It wanted to do what it wants

2044
01:57:02,800 --> 01:57:06,120
Speaker 14: to put its military, where it wants to get the resources,

2045
01:57:06,200 --> 01:57:10,120
Speaker 14: where it wants to be able to dictate foreign policy

2046
01:57:10,320 --> 01:57:14,120
Speaker 14: as it wants. And that is the whole story, from

2047
01:57:14,200 --> 01:57:18,040
Speaker 14: beginning to end. It did not want the nukes going off,

2048
01:57:18,080 --> 01:57:22,800
Speaker 14: It didn't want to bring Russia into such disarray that

2049
01:57:22,840 --> 01:57:26,560
Speaker 14: there would be disaster. But it did not want a

2050
01:57:26,640 --> 01:57:30,120
Speaker 14: strong competitor. It wanted a unipolar world.

2051
01:57:31,600 --> 01:57:36,120
Speaker 6: Well, Jeffrey Sachs, Matt Tayib, fascinating conversation. Thank you so

2052
01:57:36,200 --> 01:57:37,920
Speaker 6: much for joining us, and thank you, I just I

2053
01:57:38,000 --> 01:57:40,320
Speaker 6: for reaching out and for writing little.

2054
01:57:40,360 --> 01:57:44,160
Speaker 14: You guys do such great work. I'm really delighted to

2055
01:57:44,200 --> 01:57:45,800
Speaker 14: be together with you and we'll.

2056
01:57:45,680 --> 01:57:48,280
Speaker 5: Be able to read that in Dropsite and Racket and Racket,

2057
01:57:48,520 --> 01:57:51,160
Speaker 5: which Matt Tayeb's outly you'll be able to catch that

2058
01:57:51,240 --> 01:57:51,840
Speaker 5: at both of those.

2059
01:57:51,920 --> 01:57:53,680
Speaker 3: Thank you guys so much for joining us. We'll see

2060
01:57:53,680 --> 01:57:54,240
Speaker 3: you next time.

2061
01:57:54,880 --> 01:57:55,760
Speaker 9: Thank you to be with you.

2062
01:57:55,840 --> 01:57:56,040
Speaker 4: Thanks.

2063
01:57:57,600 --> 01:57:58,960
Speaker 3: I feel like I need a cigarette after that.

2064
01:57:58,960 --> 01:58:00,560
Speaker 4: I don't even smoke what you think you feel like

2065
01:58:00,560 --> 01:58:03,680
Speaker 4: any ten cigarettes? After that? It was Sager's nicotine gum

2066
01:58:03,760 --> 01:58:04,240
Speaker 4: under here.

2067
01:58:04,960 --> 01:58:06,280
Speaker 3: That was interesting stuff, just.

2068
01:58:06,840 --> 01:58:10,120
Speaker 5: Casual anecdotes about what he was telling Boris Yeltz in the

2069
01:58:10,160 --> 01:58:14,280
Speaker 5: nineteen ninety New One. Incredible, incredible, I mean, such a

2070
01:58:14,280 --> 01:58:15,160
Speaker 5: window into history.

2071
01:58:15,200 --> 01:58:15,920
Speaker 3: We threatened to.

2072
01:58:17,880 --> 01:58:21,640
Speaker 6: The Russian people were starving to death, literally and the

2073
01:58:21,800 --> 01:58:23,960
Speaker 6: only thing they were surviving on was the humanitarian aid

2074
01:58:24,000 --> 01:58:26,800
Speaker 6: and getting sent in, and we threatened to turn the

2075
01:58:26,800 --> 01:58:31,080
Speaker 6: ships around unless they paid every dollar of their debt financing,

2076
01:58:31,080 --> 01:58:35,760
Speaker 6: which all macroeconomics economists understood at that time was the

2077
01:58:35,800 --> 01:58:38,400
Speaker 6: wrong thing to do in that circumstance, even from the

2078
01:58:38,560 --> 01:58:41,680
Speaker 6: US's perspective, like the shock therapy that the US wanted

2079
01:58:41,680 --> 01:58:45,640
Speaker 6: to apply to Poland, to Bolivia and or elsewhere around

2080
01:58:45,680 --> 01:58:46,680
Speaker 6: Latin America, but not.

2081
01:58:48,320 --> 01:58:49,480
Speaker 3: Even that for Russia.

2082
01:58:49,520 --> 01:58:51,920
Speaker 5: But you know, what was really interesting to me is

2083
01:58:51,960 --> 01:58:56,920
Speaker 5: that as we're having this conversation about malign actors with

2084
01:58:57,400 --> 01:59:04,800
Speaker 5: I think lacking lacking long term consequence and lacking a

2085
01:59:04,880 --> 01:59:07,320
Speaker 5: view of potential long term consequences, are failing to take

2086
01:59:07,440 --> 01:59:11,000
Speaker 5: seriously what we are now looking back at. You had

2087
01:59:11,040 --> 01:59:13,920
Speaker 5: people like Jeffrey Sachs. You had other people. If we

2088
01:59:13,960 --> 01:59:15,600
Speaker 5: had more time, I wanted to ask him about this,

2089
01:59:16,040 --> 01:59:19,560
Speaker 5: who were sincere, Who were you know, maybe talking to

2090
01:59:19,600 --> 01:59:22,960
Speaker 5: people like Yeltsin and actually were there to do what

2091
01:59:23,000 --> 01:59:24,320
Speaker 5: they thought was who.

2092
01:59:24,120 --> 01:59:27,120
Speaker 6: Had read the economic consequences of the piece by Kain's right,

2093
01:59:27,200 --> 01:59:28,520
Speaker 6: the forecast that if you.

2094
01:59:28,600 --> 01:59:30,520
Speaker 3: Do this treaty, you're going to get World War two out.

2095
01:59:30,360 --> 01:59:31,000
Speaker 4: Of it, right.

2096
01:59:31,240 --> 01:59:33,080
Speaker 5: And so there are people who are on the ground,

2097
01:59:33,160 --> 01:59:38,480
Speaker 5: representing the West, representing American interests, who genuinely wanted to

2098
01:59:38,880 --> 01:59:42,200
Speaker 5: have this partnership for the best of both countries, for

2099
01:59:42,280 --> 01:59:44,800
Speaker 5: the best of both the United States and Russia and

2100
01:59:44,840 --> 01:59:49,400
Speaker 5: the West and these former Ukraine, these former Soviet block countries,

2101
01:59:49,600 --> 01:59:53,080
Speaker 5: and they were learning the lessons of history and trying

2102
01:59:53,120 --> 01:59:55,960
Speaker 5: to implement them. It's that there are people behind the scenes.

2103
01:59:55,960 --> 01:59:57,600
Speaker 5: And one question I would have for him going forward

2104
01:59:57,720 --> 01:59:59,200
Speaker 5: is what the breakdown was, you know.

2105
01:59:59,760 --> 01:59:59,840
Speaker 14: Is.

2106
02:00:01,320 --> 02:00:04,480
Speaker 5: Because he's basically then acting as a tool of these

2107
02:00:04,520 --> 02:00:10,520
Speaker 5: malign interests, is what he's saying in retrospect, So how

2108
02:00:10,960 --> 02:00:15,400
Speaker 5: many people were also in that same position, because it

2109
02:00:15,680 --> 02:00:17,840
Speaker 5: just gets the duality of the United States that like,

2110
02:00:18,200 --> 02:00:20,160
Speaker 5: in the aftermath of the Cold War and the aftermath

2111
02:00:20,200 --> 02:00:21,600
Speaker 5: of actually, I should just say in the aftermath of

2112
02:00:21,640 --> 02:00:24,040
Speaker 5: World War Two, there are a lot of you know,

2113
02:00:24,120 --> 02:00:30,520
Speaker 5: actual small l liberals who worked genuinely had the values

2114
02:00:30,560 --> 02:00:34,400
Speaker 5: of decency, trying to use the power and the muscle

2115
02:00:34,400 --> 02:00:37,000
Speaker 5: of the United States for good and in some ways

2116
02:00:37,000 --> 02:00:39,280
Speaker 5: that turned out to be foolish, but in some ways

2117
02:00:39,280 --> 02:00:42,480
Speaker 5: that were genuine and could have borne better fruit if

2118
02:00:42,480 --> 02:00:45,640
Speaker 5: they hadn't been undermined by people who had, you know,

2119
02:00:45,680 --> 02:00:49,200
Speaker 5: no interest in other powers potentially rising to challenge the

2120
02:00:49,280 --> 02:00:54,720
Speaker 5: United States. So it's sort of an enduring mystery of

2121
02:00:54,840 --> 02:00:56,880
Speaker 5: American history. I guess we'll probably never have the answer

2122
02:00:56,880 --> 02:00:59,400
Speaker 5: to it. But there are a lot of There's been

2123
02:00:59,440 --> 02:01:01,320
Speaker 5: a lot of good and there have been a lot

2124
02:01:01,320 --> 02:01:03,120
Speaker 5: of good actors in the United States.

2125
02:01:03,160 --> 02:01:05,320
Speaker 4: It's just they've been undermined by bad actors.

2126
02:01:05,640 --> 02:01:09,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, quite a history, dark timeline we're on By the way,

2127
02:01:09,720 --> 02:01:12,880
Speaker 6: no Friday show this week, but consider that your Friday show,

2128
02:01:13,480 --> 02:01:18,720
Speaker 6: this long form. Rewatch it on Friday, because this is

2129
02:01:18,720 --> 02:01:22,080
Speaker 6: the kind of thing I'll rewatch because I bet there's

2130
02:01:22,120 --> 02:01:22,800
Speaker 6: a bunch in there.

2131
02:01:23,080 --> 02:01:24,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a lot to absorb.

2132
02:01:25,440 --> 02:01:29,160
Speaker 5: Also, the question about track therapy and Bolivia, I mean

2133
02:01:29,760 --> 02:01:32,680
Speaker 5: interesting stuff. It's so interesting, especially in light of Melee

2134
02:01:32,800 --> 02:01:36,120
Speaker 5: and everything going on now, so that.

2135
02:01:35,480 --> 02:01:36,920
Speaker 4: That's got to count as a Friday show.

2136
02:01:36,920 --> 02:01:39,720
Speaker 6: There you go, exactly all right, So I'm back for

2137
02:01:40,000 --> 02:01:43,200
Speaker 6: Breaking Points tomorrow. Otherwise, we'll see you guys next week.