WEBVTT - Maya on Brené Brown's Podcast 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:15.396 Pushkin. 0:00:26.116 --> 0:00:28.556 Hi everyone, I'm Brene Brown and this is Dare to Lead. 0:00:29.156 --> 0:00:35.516 I have a really beautiful, powerful conversation for you on 0:00:35.556 --> 0:00:40.116 this episode. I am talking to doctor Maya Schunker, a 0:00:40.196 --> 0:00:44.676 cognitive scientist, and we are talking about everything from the 0:00:44.716 --> 0:00:48.196 science of change, what it means to lead, We're talking 0:00:48.236 --> 0:00:52.676 about love, and what we're really digging into is what 0:00:52.996 --> 0:00:57.676 happens when we are so surefooted on our path. We're 0:00:57.676 --> 0:01:01.716 so surefooted in fact, that we've built identities around what 0:01:01.756 --> 0:01:04.796 we're accomplishing and what we're doing, and all of a 0:01:04.836 --> 0:01:09.676 sudden life happens and we're not just noted down on 0:01:09.756 --> 0:01:13.236 the path, were knocked completely off the path. How do 0:01:13.356 --> 0:01:16.876 we get back up, how do we figure out who 0:01:16.916 --> 0:01:21.956 we are without that path? And how do we start 0:01:22.116 --> 0:01:24.996 building a new way to walk through the world. It 0:01:25.076 --> 0:01:30.316 is just truly a meaningful conversation. I'm so glad you're 0:01:30.316 --> 0:01:37.156 here to be a part of it. Before we jump in, 0:01:37.276 --> 0:01:40.076 I want to tell you a little bit about Maya. 0:01:40.276 --> 0:01:45.116 Doctor Maya Schunker is a cognitive scientist who is the creator, 0:01:45.236 --> 0:01:49.036 executive producer, and host of the Pushkin podcast show A 0:01:49.076 --> 0:01:54.636 Slight Change of Plans Beautiful Conversations. Maya was a senior 0:01:54.676 --> 0:01:57.316 advisor in the Obama White House, where she founded and 0:01:57.356 --> 0:01:59.876 served as chair of the White House Behavioral Science Team. 0:02:00.356 --> 0:02:03.316 Just the story of how she landed there is basically 0:02:03.956 --> 0:02:07.916 the lesson from our conversation in a nutshell. She also 0:02:08.036 --> 0:02:11.516 served as the first behavioral science Advisor to the United Nations. 0:02:11.996 --> 0:02:15.796 Maya has a post doctoral fellowship in cognitive neuroscience from Stanford, 0:02:15.876 --> 0:02:19.036 a PhD from Oxford on a Rhodes scholarship, and a 0:02:19.116 --> 0:02:22.636 BA from Yale. This woman's gone to school, y'alle. She 0:02:22.836 --> 0:02:25.356 is a graduate of the Juilliard School of Music's pre 0:02:25.476 --> 0:02:28.476 college program, where she was a private violin student of 0:02:28.636 --> 0:02:34.076 Ishtac Pearlman's and performed alongside of him at Carnegie Hall, 0:02:34.436 --> 0:02:38.996 which is another story that'll just This is a podcast 0:02:39.076 --> 0:02:48.636 about mastery, love and courage. Let's jump in. I have 0:02:48.716 --> 0:02:51.836 to say Maya that you have been on our podcast 0:02:51.916 --> 0:02:55.796 list since we imagined the podcast, so welcome to dare 0:02:55.836 --> 0:02:56.196 to lead. 0:02:56.676 --> 0:02:58.596 Oh my gosh, that's such an honor to hear. I'm 0:02:58.596 --> 0:03:00.356 a huge fan, so thanks for saying that. 0:03:01.196 --> 0:03:04.156 We're very grateful that you're here. And we always start 0:03:04.156 --> 0:03:07.396 our podcast with the same question, will you tell us 0:03:07.396 --> 0:03:08.276 your story. 0:03:08.316 --> 0:03:10.756 So I would start my story at the age of six, 0:03:10.916 --> 0:03:14.836 when my mom went up to our attic and brought 0:03:14.836 --> 0:03:18.676 down my grandmother's violin that she had brought with her 0:03:18.716 --> 0:03:20.636 all the way from India when she immigrated to this 0:03:20.716 --> 0:03:23.876 country in the nineteen seventies. My grandmother had played Eastern 0:03:23.956 --> 0:03:28.436 classical music in the very traditional Southern Indian style, and 0:03:28.716 --> 0:03:32.076 my mom just opened the violin case, just eager to 0:03:32.116 --> 0:03:34.556 show her young daughter the instrument. She had shown my 0:03:34.596 --> 0:03:36.476 older three siblings the instrument and they were like, this 0:03:36.516 --> 0:03:37.036 isn't cool. 0:03:37.636 --> 0:03:39.516 But I thought it was very cool. 0:03:39.996 --> 0:03:43.476 And I was enraptured by the instrument so quickly, and 0:03:44.156 --> 0:03:47.116 it was stunning for my mom because I so quickly 0:03:47.196 --> 0:03:49.916 asked for a pint sized violin of my own. It 0:03:49.956 --> 0:03:53.556 was a quarter sized instrument, and she never had to 0:03:53.556 --> 0:03:55.636 tell me to practice. It's like even as a six 0:03:55.716 --> 0:03:57.436 year old, And I assure you, Brene, there were many 0:03:57.436 --> 0:03:58.796 things I did not want to do as a six 0:03:58.836 --> 0:04:02.476 year old, but violin just felt like it was such 0:04:02.476 --> 0:04:04.716 a core part of me, like it spoke to me 0:04:04.836 --> 0:04:08.276 in an important way. And it's overwhelming to think about 0:04:08.796 --> 0:04:12.276 how emotionally close I felt with something so quickly you 0:04:12.276 --> 0:04:14.276 know that's incredible. 0:04:14.316 --> 0:04:17.716 I mean, was it ancestral? Was it you just saw 0:04:17.716 --> 0:04:20.156 it and thought, yeah, this is me. 0:04:20.796 --> 0:04:23.196 Yeah. I loved the way that it sounded, I love 0:04:23.236 --> 0:04:27.116 the way that it felt, and I loved the process 0:04:27.116 --> 0:04:31.156 of getting better at something. It was just so motivating 0:04:31.236 --> 0:04:34.636 for me to feel like there was an input output 0:04:34.676 --> 0:04:37.196 model of sorts, which we don't always get handed in life, right, 0:04:37.276 --> 0:04:40.356 but I always felt like, oh, by and large, the 0:04:40.396 --> 0:04:43.996 more I practice, the better I get. And when I 0:04:44.036 --> 0:04:46.596 was nine years old, I had big dreams really early 0:04:46.636 --> 0:04:48.836 on forney, and my parents did not know how to 0:04:48.876 --> 0:04:52.796 translate their daughter's dreams because my dad is a theoretical 0:04:52.796 --> 0:04:57.476 physics professor and my mom helps immigrants get green cards 0:04:57.476 --> 0:04:59.236 to study in this country, and so they had no 0:04:59.556 --> 0:05:04.036 inns in the western classical music space. I was always 0:05:04.036 --> 0:05:05.956 telling my mom, oh, I want to go to Juilliard. 0:05:05.956 --> 0:05:08.996 You know, Juilliard's the pinnacle for me, and she's like, well, 0:05:09.116 --> 0:05:11.476 I don't quite know how to make this happen. So 0:05:12.596 --> 0:05:14.836 one day my mom and I were just on a 0:05:14.836 --> 0:05:16.276 trip to New York, and I happened to have my 0:05:16.356 --> 0:05:19.996 violin with me, and we were walking by the Juilliard 0:05:20.116 --> 0:05:24.276 schools building, and my mom said, why don't we just 0:05:24.316 --> 0:05:26.276 go in? I was like, what do you mean to 0:05:26.316 --> 0:05:28.356 just go in? She's like, what's the worst thing that 0:05:28.396 --> 0:05:31.436 can happen? And I'm thinking, I'll tell you the worst thing, 0:05:31.516 --> 0:05:33.996 security cards escorting us out of the building. 0:05:34.276 --> 0:05:35.676 That's the one thing that can happen. 0:05:36.036 --> 0:05:37.916 And she's like, Okay, let's just go in and see 0:05:37.956 --> 0:05:41.836 what happened. So we walk in unannounced. My mom strikes 0:05:41.916 --> 0:05:44.556 up a conversation with a fellow musician and says, oh, 0:05:44.556 --> 0:05:46.556 do you mind if my daughter meets your teacher after 0:05:46.596 --> 0:05:50.956 your lesson? And they very generously said yes. I continue 0:05:50.996 --> 0:05:52.396 to be in all of how many times people are 0:05:52.396 --> 0:05:53.596 willing to just say yes if. 0:05:53.516 --> 0:05:54.276 You ask right? 0:05:54.396 --> 0:05:55.636 Oh my god, it's incredible. 0:05:55.716 --> 0:05:58.596 And I auditioned for this teacher on the spot. He 0:05:59.036 --> 0:06:02.116 accepted me into a summer music program basically a boot camp, 0:06:02.436 --> 0:06:05.436 and I ended up auditioning and getting accepted into Juilliard 0:06:05.476 --> 0:06:08.796 in the fall. And that was such a critical learning 0:06:08.836 --> 0:06:11.916 ex experience for me because it taught me life might 0:06:11.956 --> 0:06:14.756 not always hand opportunities to you on a silver plate. 0:06:15.076 --> 0:06:16.836 Sometimes you have to make the damn plate, you know, 0:06:16.916 --> 0:06:19.516 you just have to walk into the building or cold 0:06:19.556 --> 0:06:23.596 call or cold email or whatever it is. And that 0:06:23.676 --> 0:06:26.396 fearlessness is ultimately what got me to a point where 0:06:26.436 --> 0:06:28.596 I was even good enough to get into this school, 0:06:28.796 --> 0:06:31.876 and it really changed my life forever. That began an 0:06:31.956 --> 0:06:35.236 extremely intense violin life for me. So, starting when I 0:06:35.236 --> 0:06:38.356 was nine, every Saturday, I lived in Connecticut. So every Saturday, 0:06:38.356 --> 0:06:39.996 my mom and I would get up at four thirty 0:06:39.996 --> 0:06:43.436 in the morning, take the train from Connecticut to New York, 0:06:43.476 --> 0:06:45.956 and I would engage in ten hours of classes. 0:06:46.716 --> 0:06:49.516 And again this was the remarkable part. 0:06:49.556 --> 0:06:51.196 She'd wake me up at four thirty and she says, 0:06:51.236 --> 0:06:53.876 I would just jump out of bed, and she didn't 0:06:53.916 --> 0:06:56.436 have to be like, Maya, come on, get ready, it's time, 0:06:56.556 --> 0:06:58.596 Like I just couldn't wait. I felt like those were 0:06:58.596 --> 0:07:02.876 my people. Musicians were my people. And then the greatest 0:07:02.876 --> 0:07:05.796 honor came when I was a teenager. When I was thirteen, 0:07:06.076 --> 0:07:10.036 and it's a Pearlman, my violin idol asked me to 0:07:10.076 --> 0:07:11.476 be his private violin student. 0:07:11.596 --> 0:07:15.436 Okay, let's just pause for a minute here, Let's just 0:07:15.516 --> 0:07:20.476 let that soak in for a second. How many people 0:07:20.556 --> 0:07:23.636 in the world do you think can say when ishtak 0:07:23.716 --> 0:07:26.796 Pearlman asked me to be his private violin student. 0:07:27.116 --> 0:07:30.116 It does feel remarkable to say, and I still pinch 0:07:30.196 --> 0:07:32.476 myself about it, and I still question it. I actually 0:07:32.956 --> 0:07:36.436 I asked Pearlman's wife recently. We were just hanging out 0:07:36.556 --> 0:07:41.156 having coffee, and I said, Toby, we both know I 0:07:41.236 --> 0:07:44.276 was not as technically gifted as my peers. Why the 0:07:44.316 --> 0:07:47.116 hell did he take me on as his student? And 0:07:47.156 --> 0:07:50.156 she said because he felt you had something to say. 0:07:51.876 --> 0:07:52.476 Wow. 0:07:53.636 --> 0:07:56.156 And that moved me so much because it is so true. 0:07:56.196 --> 0:07:59.596 I had so many insecurities about my technique. As I mentioned, 0:07:59.636 --> 0:08:02.076 my parents were not steeped in the classical music world. 0:08:02.076 --> 0:08:04.476 They were having me work with graduate students who had 0:08:04.516 --> 0:08:06.436 never taught someone before. I didn't even know how to 0:08:06.476 --> 0:08:09.156 read sheet music when I got accepted into Juilliard. That 0:08:09.196 --> 0:08:12.236 was a big secret, Like I was just makeshifting my 0:08:12.356 --> 0:08:16.276 way into this world. And I loved that he felt 0:08:16.436 --> 0:08:19.196 like I had these emotions that he wanted to tap 0:08:19.236 --> 0:08:20.636 into through my music. 0:08:20.796 --> 0:08:20.996 You know. 0:08:21.036 --> 0:08:23.156 I love that he did feel I had something to say, 0:08:23.156 --> 0:08:25.996 because I felt like I had something to say. That 0:08:26.116 --> 0:08:29.356 was in large part why I loved the violin. Reflecting 0:08:29.356 --> 0:08:30.916 back and trying to figure out, like, what is it? 0:08:30.916 --> 0:08:33.036 That I loved about the violin. As a kid of 0:08:33.076 --> 0:08:35.076 you had asked me, I would have said, I feel 0:08:35.116 --> 0:08:37.396 like I loved how it sounded, and I loved the. 0:08:37.396 --> 0:08:38.436 Phrases I could produce. 0:08:38.476 --> 0:08:40.556 But I think actually what I loved about the violin 0:08:40.756 --> 0:08:46.436 is that I could go on stage and within moments, 0:08:46.796 --> 0:08:49.676 I can make a room full of thousands of strangers 0:08:49.716 --> 0:08:53.116 feel something that they may never have felt before, Like 0:08:53.156 --> 0:08:57.156 we could forge this deep emotional connection, and that was intoxicating, 0:08:57.356 --> 0:08:59.436 you know, And so that's really what made me tick. 0:08:59.476 --> 0:09:03.316 And so I felt like Pearlman saw that he saw 0:09:03.836 --> 0:09:06.956 the craving that I had within me to connect with 0:09:07.036 --> 0:09:09.956 other people, and he saw that thirst and that desire. 0:09:10.076 --> 0:09:13.236 And I felt so heard hearing Toby tell me that, 0:09:13.716 --> 0:09:16.676 because I never really quite understood why it is that 0:09:16.916 --> 0:09:18.676 he gave me his vote of confidence. 0:09:19.276 --> 0:09:21.876 Yeah, it's just so beautiful. I just want to sit 0:09:21.916 --> 0:09:25.276 in it for a second. It's just I don't know 0:09:25.316 --> 0:09:29.356 what that unnameable thing is that makes you pop up 0:09:29.356 --> 0:09:32.516 at four thirty. It's like love. It's like you loved 0:09:32.556 --> 0:09:35.476 what you were doing, and he had to have seen that, 0:09:35.596 --> 0:09:38.356 you know, it's just incredible. So you become his student. 0:09:38.996 --> 0:09:40.756 I do, and I'm on the fast track. 0:09:40.876 --> 0:09:44.756 Like I'm convincing my Indian American parents that I'm not 0:09:44.836 --> 0:09:47.556 going to the liberal arts college that they'd hoped i'd 0:09:47.596 --> 0:09:50.476 go to and have a well rounded education, but instead, 0:09:50.476 --> 0:09:53.156 I'm going to go to a music conservatory. And so 0:09:53.476 --> 0:09:56.916 finally everyone's on board with this whole plan. My older 0:09:56.916 --> 0:10:00.756 three siblings had gone to normal colleges. My parents, I 0:10:00.756 --> 0:10:02.316 think it always hoped that I would have that path, 0:10:02.396 --> 0:10:05.156 But Peerlman taking me on, I think, was that vote 0:10:05.556 --> 0:10:07.596 that everyone in the family needed to get behind this. 0:10:07.756 --> 0:10:10.516 So when I was f fifteen, I was studying at 0:10:10.596 --> 0:10:14.356 Pearlman's music camp and it was, oh gosh, these moments 0:10:14.356 --> 0:10:15.076 you never forget. 0:10:15.076 --> 0:10:15.716 So I woke up. 0:10:15.796 --> 0:10:18.596 It was a July morning, it was very cold, it 0:10:18.636 --> 0:10:21.356 was on Shelter Island, and I woke up and went 0:10:21.396 --> 0:10:24.396 to my practice room and I was playing a very 0:10:24.516 --> 0:10:28.276 challenging piece. It's by Paganini, Paganini Caprice number thirteen for 0:10:28.316 --> 0:10:32.276 any musicians out there, they know Paganini stuff. And I 0:10:32.396 --> 0:10:35.596 just overstretched my finger on a single note and I 0:10:35.636 --> 0:10:39.636 heard a popping sound and I knew in that moment 0:10:39.756 --> 0:10:42.756 that something was terribly wrong. But I was also fifteen Forney. 0:10:42.916 --> 0:10:46.396 So I entered denial mode immediately. I was like, I 0:10:46.436 --> 0:10:50.156 can play through the pain. There's no issues here, ignore it. 0:10:50.836 --> 0:10:55.996 And I kept resisting doctors telling me, sorry, kid, you're 0:10:56.036 --> 0:10:58.516 not going to be able to play the violin anymore. 0:10:58.836 --> 0:11:00.436 And oh my god. 0:11:00.956 --> 0:11:03.676 Yeah, and my dreams just ended like that in a moment. 0:11:03.956 --> 0:11:06.156 And like I said, I resisted it. I played through pain, 0:11:06.236 --> 0:11:09.476 I kept performing in concerts, and suddenly I had to 0:11:09.516 --> 0:11:13.596 confront the harsh truth that everybody else had accepted before 0:11:13.636 --> 0:11:16.956 I did, which is this huge dream that I had 0:11:16.956 --> 0:11:20.676 that I poured everything into. Like to this day, Brene, 0:11:21.076 --> 0:11:23.996 my right shoulder is slightly higher than my left because 0:11:23.996 --> 0:11:26.916 of all the years that I spent in the violin position, 0:11:27.076 --> 0:11:30.596 Like my spine is slightly curved, Like my body literally 0:11:31.836 --> 0:11:34.556 grew around the ergonomics of this instrument. It was an 0:11:34.596 --> 0:11:38.596 extension of my body. And now suddenly it was no 0:11:38.676 --> 0:11:43.036 longer a part of my life. And I think the 0:11:43.036 --> 0:11:45.276 best way to describe it is I was thrown into 0:11:45.316 --> 0:11:49.316 this existential spiral where I was asking myself all sorts 0:11:49.356 --> 0:11:52.876 of questions like who am I? Who am I without 0:11:52.876 --> 0:11:57.076 this instrument? And I think as kids, sometimes we can live, 0:11:57.116 --> 0:11:59.276 at least for me. Maybe precocious kids aren't like that, 0:11:59.316 --> 0:12:01.756 But we can live in this unreflective mode where we 0:12:01.916 --> 0:12:04.356 just go about our business and we do the things 0:12:04.356 --> 0:12:06.516 that we love, and we don't take the time to 0:12:06.636 --> 0:12:11.876 ask ourselves what to finds us, what makes me Maya? 0:12:12.356 --> 0:12:15.356 And suddenly I was forced to ask myself the question. 0:12:15.436 --> 0:12:17.756 And it's like I didn't like what I found because 0:12:18.036 --> 0:12:19.836 every answer didn't involve the violin. 0:12:20.196 --> 0:12:23.036 Were you just untethered? Was it an untethered feeling? Was 0:12:23.076 --> 0:12:25.876 it a like you had lost your mooring? Like what 0:12:26.516 --> 0:12:29.876 I mean? You're young too, You're in the height of adolescence. 0:12:30.236 --> 0:12:33.796 Yeah, I think I was despondent. I was impatient. I'm 0:12:33.796 --> 0:12:36.676 an extremely impatient person. I was listening to you and 0:12:36.676 --> 0:12:40.236 Angela duckworths, she and I share this dream, deeply impatient. 0:12:40.236 --> 0:12:42.476 I want to ask yeah, yeah, and you too. I 0:12:42.516 --> 0:12:45.316 want things to have happened yesterday. So I felt this 0:12:45.396 --> 0:12:49.276 huge urgency to find the next thing. And of course 0:12:49.956 --> 0:12:51.876 you've already picked up on the depth of my love 0:12:51.916 --> 0:12:54.156 for the instrument, right it's hard to even put into words. 0:12:54.596 --> 0:12:56.836 You're not going to find that right away. And it 0:12:56.916 --> 0:13:00.436 was just like push and pull in my mind of acceptance, 0:13:00.636 --> 0:13:04.676 acceptance of the loss, and then also trying to figure 0:13:04.676 --> 0:13:07.636 out I need to move on, I need to find 0:13:07.636 --> 0:13:11.156 something else, not wanting to and that's what created this 0:13:11.236 --> 0:13:12.156 tension in my mind. 0:13:13.236 --> 0:13:15.556 So then what happens? Do you stay at Juilliard? 0:13:16.596 --> 0:13:19.076 So oh yeah, this is a little known story, but 0:13:19.516 --> 0:13:22.316 it's that Pearlman actually continued to teach me and I 0:13:22.356 --> 0:13:26.396 would play open strings in my lessons. That's how dedicated 0:13:26.396 --> 0:13:29.076 a teacher he is. I could not use my left hand, 0:13:29.756 --> 0:13:32.036 so I just rested on the instrument and we would 0:13:32.076 --> 0:13:37.516 just focus on making a beautiful sound for lesson upon lesson. 0:13:38.076 --> 0:13:38.556 Nice is. 0:13:39.156 --> 0:13:42.436 It was remarkable, right, And then finally he also had 0:13:42.436 --> 0:13:44.196 to accept that my violent dreams were over. 0:13:44.276 --> 0:13:44.796 We both did. 0:13:45.116 --> 0:13:49.356 It was a joint process of acceptance, and I stopped 0:13:49.356 --> 0:13:53.756 playing entirely. And then there was another turning point. I 0:13:53.876 --> 0:13:57.316 was helping my parents clean out their basement the summer 0:13:57.356 --> 0:14:01.316 before college, as a dutiful daughter does per day. In 0:14:01.356 --> 0:14:03.436 the counterfactual world, I was supposed to be in China 0:14:03.516 --> 0:14:06.956 touring with my musical classmates. So like, equally cool summer 0:14:06.996 --> 0:14:10.836 situation going on here, and I'm just exploring their bookshelf 0:14:10.876 --> 0:14:13.196 and I come across a book by Stephen Pinker called 0:14:13.196 --> 0:14:20.276 The Language Instinct, and it detailed our remarkable ability to 0:14:20.876 --> 0:14:25.076 comprehend and produce language. And up until that point, I 0:14:25.116 --> 0:14:28.876 had completely taken my language abilities for granted, right, I 0:14:28.876 --> 0:14:31.876 never even really thought about them. And what Pinker did 0:14:31.956 --> 0:14:33.596 is he pulled the curtain back for me, and he 0:14:33.716 --> 0:14:38.716 revealed the complex cognitive machinery that's at work behind the 0:14:38.756 --> 0:14:44.956 scenes fueling this mental ability. And I felt in awe. 0:14:45.356 --> 0:14:47.516 Awe is the best word to use to describe that. 0:14:47.556 --> 0:14:50.356 I thought to myself, Oh my gosh, if this is 0:14:50.396 --> 0:14:55.276 what's behind language, what is behind the ability to do 0:14:55.876 --> 0:14:59.036 complex mathematics. I can't do complex math, but my dad 0:14:59.076 --> 0:15:02.276 can't write. Or like falling in love or high level 0:15:02.316 --> 0:15:07.516 decision making or pondering about philosophical questions, like what's behind 0:15:07.556 --> 0:15:12.756 all that? I just became insatiable. I wanted to read 0:15:12.796 --> 0:15:16.956 every book there was on the mind. And I ended 0:15:16.996 --> 0:15:20.276 up studying cognitive science and undergrad and I was really 0:15:20.356 --> 0:15:24.876 lucky because my undergrad institution had a cognitive science program. 0:15:24.916 --> 0:15:26.516 It's more common now that back in the day, it 0:15:26.596 --> 0:15:30.436 was a relatively new program, and it's an interdisciplinary program 0:15:30.476 --> 0:15:38.476 that blends psychology, neuroscience, philosophy, computer science, anthropology, basic biology. 0:15:38.516 --> 0:15:41.996 Like you're studying the mind from multiple different angles to 0:15:42.036 --> 0:15:46.236 try to arrive at some conclusion. And that's where I 0:15:46.236 --> 0:15:50.036 studied non human primates and nonverbal abilities and language and 0:15:50.156 --> 0:15:53.036 visual perception. Like again, I just had the time of 0:15:53.076 --> 0:15:55.316 my life, right, I was for doing research in all 0:15:55.316 --> 0:15:58.996 of these labs, and I ultimately got my PhD in 0:15:59.476 --> 0:16:02.876 cognitive science and ended up getting a post doc in 0:16:02.956 --> 0:16:05.596 cognitive neuroscience. So it was very much on the academic 0:16:05.636 --> 0:16:06.556 path at that point. 0:16:07.196 --> 0:16:12.876 I love the threat of passion and purpose. I bet 0:16:12.876 --> 0:16:15.356 if you had to go study cognitive science at four 0:16:15.396 --> 0:16:17.516 point thirty in the morning on a Saturday, you would 0:16:17.516 --> 0:16:20.116 have popped right back up too, just like maybe four 0:16:19.956 --> 0:16:20.556 forty five. 0:16:20.956 --> 0:16:23.276 I thought, yeah, yeah, I'd gotten older by this point. 0:16:23.356 --> 0:16:26.716 Okay, so then tell us what happens. You finish your 0:16:26.716 --> 0:16:30.876 postdoc and you're on your trajectory. Is probably an academic position. 0:16:30.636 --> 0:16:33.276 Absolutely, Yeah, I'm gonning to be a professor, right, That's 0:16:33.316 --> 0:16:35.716 what you do when you've just spent ten years studying something, 0:16:36.436 --> 0:16:39.556 and I think is so common. Sometimes I felt like, 0:16:39.796 --> 0:16:41.636 finally I've got it. All figured out. 0:16:41.876 --> 0:16:44.316 That's that as a feeling that we all, you know, 0:16:44.396 --> 0:16:46.636 we all aspire for it. It's a fiction. 0:16:46.996 --> 0:16:48.956 I'm like, I finally got it all figured out. My 0:16:49.036 --> 0:16:50.996 dad's a professor. I've always wanted to be a professor. 0:16:51.036 --> 0:16:55.596 I admired professors. And then there's this again turning point 0:16:55.676 --> 0:16:58.836 where I'm sitting in the basement of an E. Fhor 0:16:58.876 --> 0:17:02.796 Marie laboratory, so I'm doing brain scans. It's at Stanford, 0:17:02.796 --> 0:17:05.996 That's where I was doing my POSTOC and I've been 0:17:06.036 --> 0:17:09.436 scanning people's brains all morning in this windowless laboratory and 0:17:09.476 --> 0:17:12.836 this guy comes in and within moments I'm like looking 0:17:12.876 --> 0:17:14.996 at as amygdala and I. 0:17:14.916 --> 0:17:20.556 Don't know so personal so quickly I mean yes, I mean, 0:17:20.596 --> 0:17:22.516 are you happy to see me? Or is that your amygdalah? 0:17:22.556 --> 0:17:26.316 I mean, it's God's kind of funny, but it's probably 0:17:26.316 --> 0:17:28.956 funny for you and me, like party of two, we're laughing, 0:17:28.956 --> 0:17:31.996 the nerds are laughing, but it is kind of oh absolutely. 0:17:32.036 --> 0:17:33.116 I mean your point. 0:17:33.156 --> 0:17:35.836 That was exactly the challenge for me, which is it 0:17:35.916 --> 0:17:39.516 felt like the order of operations was off given my personality, 0:17:39.636 --> 0:17:42.756 because I wanted to know, what does this person love 0:17:42.796 --> 0:17:45.076 to do do they have a family, do they have kids? 0:17:45.396 --> 0:17:48.436 What's their favorite ice cream flavor, what's their favorite book 0:17:48.436 --> 0:17:50.916 that they've read? Like, those were the questions that I 0:17:50.956 --> 0:17:53.116 was so excited, how do they make decisions? And instead 0:17:53.276 --> 0:17:56.756 it felt like a depersonalized version of the process. Now, 0:17:57.996 --> 0:18:00.996 kudos to neuroscientists everywhere, we need them out there, but 0:18:01.036 --> 0:18:03.996 I just knew in that moment, this is not a 0:18:03.996 --> 0:18:06.476 good match for me. This is not a good match 0:18:06.476 --> 0:18:09.556 for my personality. I want to be working on teas. 0:18:10.156 --> 0:18:15.476 I need to be in a window windowed office, not in. 0:18:15.516 --> 0:18:17.716 A dark Stanford laboratory office. 0:18:17.836 --> 0:18:19.956 And so there were just things like that where I 0:18:20.076 --> 0:18:23.516 just realized this is not quite right. But I felt 0:18:23.596 --> 0:18:27.116 so much inertia because again I poured it was similar 0:18:27.156 --> 0:18:28.716 in some sense to the violin. I mean, this was 0:18:28.756 --> 0:18:31.076 on my own polition. Maybe that was departing, but you 0:18:31.196 --> 0:18:34.076 still feel that same poll like, oh my gosh, I've 0:18:34.116 --> 0:18:36.196 just spent so many years doing this thing and now 0:18:36.276 --> 0:18:38.156 I'm not sure that I want to do it anymore. 0:18:38.756 --> 0:18:40.796 God, You're like, it's like sunk cost. 0:18:40.596 --> 0:18:44.516 Hell absolutely, oh my gosh. And I was studying the 0:18:44.556 --> 0:18:47.316 sunk cost fallacy at the time, but man, I fell 0:18:47.396 --> 0:18:48.436 prey to it for Nay. 0:18:48.356 --> 0:18:49.356 None of us are reviewed. 0:18:49.436 --> 0:18:52.796 None of us are Yeah, it's a really certain you 0:18:52.796 --> 0:18:54.756 would explain it real quick for everyone that's listening that 0:18:54.756 --> 0:18:55.396 doesn't know it. 0:18:55.796 --> 0:19:00.156 Yeah, I mean, we tend to overvalue the investments we've 0:19:00.156 --> 0:19:02.316 made in stuff, and we cling onto that stuff far 0:19:02.396 --> 0:19:05.276 beyond when it's rational too, And it's deeply painful to 0:19:05.356 --> 0:19:08.036 incur losses, right for the things that we've poured so 0:19:08.116 --> 0:19:11.076 much time and energy, but when actually we should just 0:19:11.156 --> 0:19:11.476 cut our. 0:19:11.436 --> 0:19:13.356 Losses and move forward, right totally. 0:19:13.436 --> 0:19:14.876 Yeah, And so I at this moment, I think this 0:19:14.996 --> 0:19:18.836 was around yeah, twenty twelve, So behavioral science was just 0:19:18.916 --> 0:19:21.076 kind of like a burgeoning field at that time, and 0:19:22.036 --> 0:19:24.836 I didn't know what my options were, right, I thought, well, 0:19:24.836 --> 0:19:28.196 what does a cognitive neuroscience postdoc do? They either become 0:19:28.236 --> 0:19:32.036 a professor or they become a general management consultant. Like 0:19:32.236 --> 0:19:34.236 those are the only two options that I knew about. 0:19:34.316 --> 0:19:35.196 So that sounds right. 0:19:35.276 --> 0:19:35.516 Yeah. 0:19:35.556 --> 0:19:39.756 So I called it my undergrad advisor, Laurie Santos, who's 0:19:39.796 --> 0:19:43.676 known me since I was seventeen, And I said, Laurie, 0:19:43.836 --> 0:19:46.676 so you know that thing I've been doing for like 0:19:47.076 --> 0:19:50.476 a long time, don't want to do that anymore. I'm 0:19:50.516 --> 0:19:53.716 thinking of trying to apply for a general management position 0:19:53.836 --> 0:19:57.516 consulting position, and she's like, Okay, Maya, before you do that. 0:19:57.636 --> 0:19:59.556 I can see her like clinging on to the student 0:19:59.596 --> 0:20:01.476 that she's coached for so long, being like, I don't 0:20:01.476 --> 0:20:03.876 want to lose you in the field. She tells me 0:20:03.996 --> 0:20:08.316 about this remarkable work that's happening in the federal government 0:20:08.356 --> 0:20:09.956 at the time. So this was in the Obama White 0:20:09.996 --> 0:20:14.036 House where they were leveraging insights from the field of 0:20:14.076 --> 0:20:16.396 behavioral economics from the stuff that I was studying in 0:20:16.436 --> 0:20:20.996 real time to help feed hungry children. So, long story short, 0:20:21.236 --> 0:20:24.196 the government offers what's called the National School Lunch Program, 0:20:24.796 --> 0:20:28.716 and despite the fact that millions of kids are eligible 0:20:28.716 --> 0:20:31.956 for the program, millions of kids were still going hungry 0:20:32.156 --> 0:20:36.316 at school every day because their parents hadn't filled out 0:20:36.316 --> 0:20:40.476 the application form for the program, and a behavioral audit 0:20:40.556 --> 0:20:43.756 of the program revealed that the reason for this is 0:20:44.716 --> 0:20:49.836 the application process was extremely burdensome. It required referencing multiple 0:20:49.956 --> 0:20:52.996 tax documents, it required going to the post office at 0:20:53.036 --> 0:20:55.916 a certain moment in the time, moment in time, and oh, 0:20:55.956 --> 0:20:58.396 if you fill out something wrong, there's a potential penalty 0:20:58.396 --> 0:21:01.476 that you might incur and put yourself in the shoes 0:21:01.516 --> 0:21:04.916 of a single mom who's working three shifts to make 0:21:05.036 --> 0:21:07.996 ends meet, who's trying to make sure that her children 0:21:08.116 --> 0:21:10.796 thrive at school, and we're putting these demands on her 0:21:11.236 --> 0:21:13.036 just to make sure that they gave access to lunch. 0:21:13.076 --> 0:21:16.836 That's unreasonable, right. And then another barrier was that there 0:21:16.876 --> 0:21:19.756 was a stigma associated with signing up your kids for 0:21:19.796 --> 0:21:21.956 a public benefits program. Or later on, when I was 0:21:21.956 --> 0:21:23.996 at the White House, I talked to principles and parents 0:21:24.036 --> 0:21:26.476