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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: Hi everyone, I'm Brene Brown and this is Dare to Lead.

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Speaker 2: I have a really beautiful, powerful conversation for you on

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Speaker 2: this episode. I am talking to doctor Maya Schunker, a

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Speaker 2: cognitive scientist, and we are talking about everything from the

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Speaker 2: science of change, what it means to lead, We're talking

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Speaker 2: about love, and what we're really digging into is what

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Speaker 2: happens when we are so surefooted on our path. We're

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Speaker 2: so surefooted in fact, that we've built identities around what

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Speaker 2: we're accomplishing and what we're doing, and all of a

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Speaker 2: sudden life happens and we're not just noted down on

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Speaker 2: the path, were knocked completely off the path. How do

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Speaker 2: we get back up, how do we figure out who

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Speaker 2: we are without that path? And how do we start

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Speaker 2: building a new way to walk through the world. It

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Speaker 2: is just truly a meaningful conversation. I'm so glad you're

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Speaker 2: here to be a part of it. Before we jump in,

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Speaker 2: I want to tell you a little bit about Maya.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Maya Schunker is a cognitive scientist who is the creator,

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Speaker 2: executive producer, and host of the Pushkin podcast show A

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Speaker 2: Slight Change of Plans Beautiful Conversations. Maya was a senior

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Speaker 2: advisor in the Obama White House, where she founded and

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Speaker 2: served as chair of the White House Behavioral Science Team.

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Speaker 2: Just the story of how she landed there is basically

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Speaker 2: the lesson from our conversation in a nutshell. She also

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Speaker 2: served as the first behavioral science Advisor to the United Nations.

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Speaker 2: Maya has a post doctoral fellowship in cognitive neuroscience from Stanford,

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Speaker 2: a PhD from Oxford on a Rhodes scholarship, and a

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Speaker 2: BA from Yale. This woman's gone to school, y'alle. She

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Speaker 2: is a graduate of the Juilliard School of Music's pre

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Speaker 2: college program, where she was a private violin student of

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Speaker 2: Ishtac Pearlman's and performed alongside of him at Carnegie Hall,

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Speaker 2: which is another story that'll just This is a podcast

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Speaker 2: about mastery, love and courage. Let's jump in. I have

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Speaker 2: to say Maya that you have been on our podcast

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Speaker 2: list since we imagined the podcast, so welcome to dare

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Speaker 2: to lead.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, that's such an honor to hear. I'm

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Speaker 3: a huge fan, so thanks for saying that.

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Speaker 2: We're very grateful that you're here. And we always start

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Speaker 2: our podcast with the same question, will you tell us

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Speaker 2: your story.

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Speaker 3: So I would start my story at the age of six,

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Speaker 3: when my mom went up to our attic and brought

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Speaker 3: down my grandmother's violin that she had brought with her

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Speaker 3: all the way from India when she immigrated to this

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Speaker 3: country in the nineteen seventies. My grandmother had played Eastern

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Speaker 3: classical music in the very traditional Southern Indian style, and

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Speaker 3: my mom just opened the violin case, just eager to

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Speaker 3: show her young daughter the instrument. She had shown my

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Speaker 3: older three siblings the instrument and they were like, this

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Speaker 3: isn't cool.

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Speaker 1: But I thought it was very cool.

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Speaker 3: And I was enraptured by the instrument so quickly, and

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Speaker 3: it was stunning for my mom because I so quickly

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Speaker 3: asked for a pint sized violin of my own. It

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Speaker 3: was a quarter sized instrument, and she never had to

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Speaker 3: tell me to practice. It's like even as a six

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Speaker 3: year old, And I assure you, Brene, there were many

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Speaker 3: things I did not want to do as a six

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Speaker 3: year old, but violin just felt like it was such

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Speaker 3: a core part of me, like it spoke to me

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Speaker 3: in an important way. And it's overwhelming to think about

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Speaker 3: how emotionally close I felt with something so quickly you

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Speaker 3: know that's incredible.

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Speaker 2: I mean, was it ancestral? Was it you just saw

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Speaker 2: it and thought, yeah, this is me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I loved the way that it sounded, I love

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Speaker 3: the way that it felt, and I loved the process

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Speaker 3: of getting better at something. It was just so motivating

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Speaker 3: for me to feel like there was an input output

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Speaker 3: model of sorts, which we don't always get handed in life, right,

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Speaker 3: but I always felt like, oh, by and large, the

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Speaker 3: more I practice, the better I get. And when I

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Speaker 3: was nine years old, I had big dreams really early

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Speaker 3: on forney, and my parents did not know how to

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Speaker 3: translate their daughter's dreams because my dad is a theoretical

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Speaker 3: physics professor and my mom helps immigrants get green cards

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Speaker 3: to study in this country, and so they had no

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Speaker 3: inns in the western classical music space. I was always

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Speaker 3: telling my mom, oh, I want to go to Juilliard.

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Speaker 3: You know, Juilliard's the pinnacle for me, and she's like, well,

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Speaker 3: I don't quite know how to make this happen. So

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Speaker 3: one day my mom and I were just on a

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Speaker 3: trip to New York, and I happened to have my

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Speaker 3: violin with me, and we were walking by the Juilliard

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Speaker 3: schools building, and my mom said, why don't we just

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Speaker 3: go in? I was like, what do you mean to

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Speaker 3: just go in? She's like, what's the worst thing that

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Speaker 3: can happen? And I'm thinking, I'll tell you the worst thing,

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Speaker 3: security cards escorting us out of the building.

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Speaker 1: That's the one thing that can happen.

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Speaker 3: And she's like, Okay, let's just go in and see

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Speaker 3: what happened. So we walk in unannounced. My mom strikes

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Speaker 3: up a conversation with a fellow musician and says, oh,

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Speaker 3: do you mind if my daughter meets your teacher after

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Speaker 3: your lesson? And they very generously said yes. I continue

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Speaker 3: to be in all of how many times people are

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Speaker 3: willing to just say yes if.

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Speaker 1: You ask right?

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, it's incredible.

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Speaker 3: And I auditioned for this teacher on the spot. He

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Speaker 3: accepted me into a summer music program basically a boot camp,

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Speaker 3: and I ended up auditioning and getting accepted into Juilliard

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Speaker 3: in the fall. And that was such a critical learning

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Speaker 3: ex experience for me because it taught me life might

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Speaker 3: not always hand opportunities to you on a silver plate.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes you have to make the damn plate, you know,

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Speaker 3: you just have to walk into the building or cold

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Speaker 3: call or cold email or whatever it is. And that

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Speaker 3: fearlessness is ultimately what got me to a point where

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Speaker 3: I was even good enough to get into this school,

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Speaker 3: and it really changed my life forever. That began an

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Speaker 3: extremely intense violin life for me. So, starting when I

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Speaker 3: was nine, every Saturday, I lived in Connecticut. So every Saturday,

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Speaker 3: my mom and I would get up at four thirty

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Speaker 3: in the morning, take the train from Connecticut to New York,

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Speaker 3: and I would engage in ten hours of classes.

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Speaker 1: And again this was the remarkable part.

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Speaker 3: She'd wake me up at four thirty and she says,

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Speaker 3: I would just jump out of bed, and she didn't

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Speaker 3: have to be like, Maya, come on, get ready, it's time,

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Speaker 3: Like I just couldn't wait. I felt like those were

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Speaker 3: my people. Musicians were my people. And then the greatest

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Speaker 3: honor came when I was a teenager. When I was thirteen,

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Speaker 3: and it's a Pearlman, my violin idol asked me to

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Speaker 3: be his private violin student.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's just pause for a minute here, Let's just

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Speaker 2: let that soak in for a second. How many people

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Speaker 2: in the world do you think can say when ishtak

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Speaker 2: Pearlman asked me to be his private violin student.

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Speaker 3: It does feel remarkable to say, and I still pinch

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Speaker 3: myself about it, and I still question it. I actually

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Speaker 3: I asked Pearlman's wife recently. We were just hanging out

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Speaker 3: having coffee, and I said, Toby, we both know I

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Speaker 3: was not as technically gifted as my peers. Why the

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Speaker 3: hell did he take me on as his student? And

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Speaker 3: she said because he felt you had something to say.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: And that moved me so much because it is so true.

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Speaker 3: I had so many insecurities about my technique. As I mentioned,

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Speaker 3: my parents were not steeped in the classical music world.

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Speaker 3: They were having me work with graduate students who had

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Speaker 3: never taught someone before. I didn't even know how to

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Speaker 3: read sheet music when I got accepted into Juilliard. That

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Speaker 3: was a big secret, Like I was just makeshifting my

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Speaker 3: way into this world. And I loved that he felt

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Speaker 3: like I had these emotions that he wanted to tap

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Speaker 3: into through my music.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: I love that he did feel I had something to say,

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Speaker 3: because I felt like I had something to say. That

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Speaker 3: was in large part why I loved the violin. Reflecting

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Speaker 3: back and trying to figure out, like, what is it?

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Speaker 3: That I loved about the violin. As a kid of

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Speaker 3: you had asked me, I would have said, I feel

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Speaker 3: like I loved how it sounded, and I loved the.

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Speaker 1: Phrases I could produce.

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Speaker 3: But I think actually what I loved about the violin

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Speaker 3: is that I could go on stage and within moments,

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Speaker 3: I can make a room full of thousands of strangers

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Speaker 3: feel something that they may never have felt before, Like

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Speaker 3: we could forge this deep emotional connection, and that was intoxicating,

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Speaker 3: you know, And so that's really what made me tick.

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Speaker 3: And so I felt like Pearlman saw that he saw

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Speaker 3: the craving that I had within me to connect with

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Speaker 3: other people, and he saw that thirst and that desire.

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Speaker 3: And I felt so heard hearing Toby tell me that,

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Speaker 3: because I never really quite understood why it is that

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Speaker 3: he gave me his vote of confidence.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just so beautiful. I just want to sit

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Speaker 2: in it for a second. It's just I don't know

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Speaker 2: what that unnameable thing is that makes you pop up

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Speaker 2: at four thirty. It's like love. It's like you loved

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Speaker 2: what you were doing, and he had to have seen that,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's just incredible. So you become his student.

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Speaker 1: I do, and I'm on the fast track.

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Speaker 3: Like I'm convincing my Indian American parents that I'm not

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Speaker 3: going to the liberal arts college that they'd hoped i'd

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Speaker 3: go to and have a well rounded education, but instead,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to go to a music conservatory. And so

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Speaker 3: finally everyone's on board with this whole plan. My older

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Speaker 3: three siblings had gone to normal colleges. My parents, I

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Speaker 3: think it always hoped that I would have that path,

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Speaker 3: But Peerlman taking me on, I think, was that vote

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Speaker 3: that everyone in the family needed to get behind this.

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Speaker 3: So when I was f fifteen, I was studying at

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Speaker 3: Pearlman's music camp and it was, oh gosh, these moments

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Speaker 3: you never forget.

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Speaker 1: So I woke up.

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Speaker 3: It was a July morning, it was very cold, it

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Speaker 3: was on Shelter Island, and I woke up and went

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Speaker 3: to my practice room and I was playing a very

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Speaker 3: challenging piece. It's by Paganini, Paganini Caprice number thirteen for

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Speaker 3: any musicians out there, they know Paganini stuff. And I

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Speaker 3: just overstretched my finger on a single note and I

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Speaker 3: heard a popping sound and I knew in that moment

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Speaker 3: that something was terribly wrong. But I was also fifteen Forney.

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Speaker 3: So I entered denial mode immediately. I was like, I

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Speaker 3: can play through the pain. There's no issues here, ignore it.

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Speaker 3: And I kept resisting doctors telling me, sorry, kid, you're

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Speaker 3: not going to be able to play the violin anymore.

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Speaker 2: And oh my god.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and my dreams just ended like that in a moment.

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Speaker 3: And like I said, I resisted it. I played through pain,

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Speaker 3: I kept performing in concerts, and suddenly I had to

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Speaker 3: confront the harsh truth that everybody else had accepted before

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Speaker 3: I did, which is this huge dream that I had

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Speaker 3: that I poured everything into. Like to this day, Brene,

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Speaker 3: my right shoulder is slightly higher than my left because

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Speaker 3: of all the years that I spent in the violin position,

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Speaker 3: Like my spine is slightly curved, Like my body literally

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Speaker 3: grew around the ergonomics of this instrument. It was an

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Speaker 3: extension of my body. And now suddenly it was no

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Speaker 3: longer a part of my life. And I think the

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Speaker 3: best way to describe it is I was thrown into

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Speaker 3: this existential spiral where I was asking myself all sorts

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Speaker 3: of questions like who am I? Who am I without

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Speaker 3: this instrument? And I think as kids, sometimes we can live,

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Speaker 3: at least for me. Maybe precocious kids aren't like that,

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Speaker 3: But we can live in this unreflective mode where we

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Speaker 3: just go about our business and we do the things

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Speaker 3: that we love, and we don't take the time to

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Speaker 3: ask ourselves what to finds us, what makes me Maya?

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Speaker 3: And suddenly I was forced to ask myself the question.

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Speaker 3: And it's like I didn't like what I found because

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Speaker 3: every answer didn't involve the violin.

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Speaker 2: Were you just untethered? Was it an untethered feeling? Was

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Speaker 2: it a like you had lost your mooring? Like what

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Speaker 2: I mean? You're young too, You're in the height of adolescence.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I was despondent. I was impatient. I'm

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Speaker 3: an extremely impatient person. I was listening to you and

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Speaker 3: Angela duckworths, she and I share this dream, deeply impatient.

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Speaker 3: I want to ask yeah, yeah, and you too. I

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Speaker 3: want things to have happened yesterday. So I felt this

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Speaker 3: huge urgency to find the next thing. And of course

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Speaker 3: you've already picked up on the depth of my love

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Speaker 3: for the instrument, right it's hard to even put into words.

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Speaker 3: You're not going to find that right away. And it

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Speaker 3: was just like push and pull in my mind of acceptance,

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Speaker 3: acceptance of the loss, and then also trying to figure

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Speaker 3: out I need to move on, I need to find

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Speaker 3: something else, not wanting to and that's what created this

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Speaker 3: tension in my mind.

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Speaker 2: So then what happens? Do you stay at Juilliard?

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Speaker 3: So oh yeah, this is a little known story, but

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Speaker 3: it's that Pearlman actually continued to teach me and I

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Speaker 3: would play open strings in my lessons. That's how dedicated

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Speaker 3: a teacher he is. I could not use my left hand,

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Speaker 3: so I just rested on the instrument and we would

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Speaker 3: just focus on making a beautiful sound for lesson upon lesson.

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Speaker 1: Nice is.

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Speaker 3: It was remarkable, right, And then finally he also had

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Speaker 3: to accept that my violent dreams were over.

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Speaker 1: We both did.

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Speaker 3: It was a joint process of acceptance, and I stopped

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Speaker 3: playing entirely. And then there was another turning point. I

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Speaker 3: was helping my parents clean out their basement the summer

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Speaker 3: before college, as a dutiful daughter does per day. In

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Speaker 3: the counterfactual world, I was supposed to be in China

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Speaker 3: touring with my musical classmates. So like, equally cool summer

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Speaker 3: situation going on here, and I'm just exploring their bookshelf

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Speaker 3: and I come across a book by Stephen Pinker called

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Speaker 3: The Language Instinct, and it detailed our remarkable ability to

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Speaker 3: comprehend and produce language. And up until that point, I

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Speaker 3: had completely taken my language abilities for granted, right, I

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Speaker 3: never even really thought about them. And what Pinker did

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Speaker 3: is he pulled the curtain back for me, and he

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Speaker 3: revealed the complex cognitive machinery that's at work behind the

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Speaker 3: scenes fueling this mental ability. And I felt in awe.

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Speaker 3: Awe is the best word to use to describe that.

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Speaker 3: I thought to myself, Oh my gosh, if this is

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Speaker 3: what's behind language, what is behind the ability to do

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Speaker 3: complex mathematics. I can't do complex math, but my dad

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Speaker 3: can't write. Or like falling in love or high level

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Speaker 3: decision making or pondering about philosophical questions, like what's behind

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Speaker 3: all that? I just became insatiable. I wanted to read

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Speaker 3: every book there was on the mind. And I ended

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Speaker 3: up studying cognitive science and undergrad and I was really

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Speaker 3: lucky because my undergrad institution had a cognitive science program.

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Speaker 3: It's more common now that back in the day, it

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Speaker 3: was a relatively new program, and it's an interdisciplinary program

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Speaker 3: that blends psychology, neuroscience, philosophy, computer science, anthropology, basic biology.

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Speaker 3: Like you're studying the mind from multiple different angles to

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Speaker 3: try to arrive at some conclusion. And that's where I

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Speaker 3: studied non human primates and nonverbal abilities and language and

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Speaker 3: visual perception. Like again, I just had the time of

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Speaker 3: my life, right, I was for doing research in all

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Speaker 3: of these labs, and I ultimately got my PhD in

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Speaker 3: cognitive science and ended up getting a post doc in

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Speaker 3: cognitive neuroscience. So it was very much on the academic

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Speaker 3: path at that point.

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Speaker 2: I love the threat of passion and purpose. I bet

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Speaker 2: if you had to go study cognitive science at four

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Speaker 2: point thirty in the morning on a Saturday, you would

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Speaker 2: have popped right back up too, just like maybe four

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Speaker 2: forty five.

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Speaker 1: I thought, yeah, yeah, I'd gotten older by this point.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so then tell us what happens. You finish your

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Speaker 2: postdoc and you're on your trajectory. Is probably an academic position.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, Yeah, I'm gonning to be a professor, right, That's

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Speaker 3: what you do when you've just spent ten years studying something,

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Speaker 3: and I think is so common. Sometimes I felt like,

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Speaker 3: finally I've got it. All figured out.

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Speaker 1: That's that as a feeling that we all, you know,

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Speaker 1: we all aspire for it. It's a fiction.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, I finally got it all figured out. My

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Speaker 3: dad's a professor. I've always wanted to be a professor.

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Speaker 3: I admired professors. And then there's this again turning point

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Speaker 3: where I'm sitting in the basement of an E. Fhor

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Speaker 3: Marie laboratory, so I'm doing brain scans. It's at Stanford,

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Speaker 3: That's where I was doing my POSTOC and I've been

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Speaker 3: scanning people's brains all morning in this windowless laboratory and

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Speaker 3: this guy comes in and within moments I'm like looking

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Speaker 3: at as amygdala and I.

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Speaker 2: Don't know so personal so quickly I mean yes, I mean,

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Speaker 2: are you happy to see me? Or is that your amygdalah?

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's God's kind of funny, but it's probably

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Speaker 2: funny for you and me, like party of two, we're laughing,

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Speaker 2: the nerds are laughing, but it is kind of oh absolutely.

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Speaker 1: I mean your point.

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Speaker 3: That was exactly the challenge for me, which is it

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Speaker 3: felt like the order of operations was off given my personality,

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Speaker 3: because I wanted to know, what does this person love

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Speaker 3: to do do they have a family, do they have kids?

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Speaker 3: What's their favorite ice cream flavor, what's their favorite book

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Speaker 3: that they've read? Like, those were the questions that I

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Speaker 3: was so excited, how do they make decisions? And instead

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Speaker 3: it felt like a depersonalized version of the process. Now,

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Speaker 3: kudos to neuroscientists everywhere, we need them out there, but

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Speaker 3: I just knew in that moment, this is not a

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Speaker 3: good match for me. This is not a good match

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Speaker 3: for my personality. I want to be working on teas.

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Speaker 3: I need to be in a window windowed office, not in.

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Speaker 1: A dark Stanford laboratory office.

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Speaker 3: And so there were just things like that where I

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Speaker 3: just realized this is not quite right. But I felt

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Speaker 3: so much inertia because again I poured it was similar

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Speaker 3: in some sense to the violin. I mean, this was

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Speaker 3: on my own polition. Maybe that was departing, but you

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Speaker 3: still feel that same poll like, oh my gosh, I've

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Speaker 3: just spent so many years doing this thing and now

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure that I want to do it anymore.

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Speaker 2: God, You're like, it's like sunk cost.

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Speaker 3: Hell absolutely, oh my gosh. And I was studying the

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Speaker 3: sunk cost fallacy at the time, but man, I fell

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Speaker 3: prey to it for Nay.

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Speaker 1: None of us are reviewed.

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Speaker 2: None of us are Yeah, it's a really certain you

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Speaker 2: would explain it real quick for everyone that's listening that

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Speaker 2: doesn't know it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, we tend to overvalue the investments we've

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Speaker 3: made in stuff, and we cling onto that stuff far

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Speaker 3: beyond when it's rational too, And it's deeply painful to

355
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Speaker 3: incur losses, right for the things that we've poured so

356
00:19:08,116 --> 00:19:11,076
Speaker 3: much time and energy, but when actually we should just

357
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Speaker 3: cut our.

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Speaker 1: Losses and move forward, right totally.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And so I at this moment, I think this

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Speaker 3: was around yeah, twenty twelve, So behavioral science was just

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Speaker 3: kind of like a burgeoning field at that time, and

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Speaker 3: I didn't know what my options were, right, I thought, well,

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Speaker 3: what does a cognitive neuroscience postdoc do? They either become

364
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Speaker 3: a professor or they become a general management consultant. Like

365
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Speaker 3: those are the only two options that I knew about.

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Speaker 2: So that sounds right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So I called it my undergrad advisor, Laurie Santos, who's

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Speaker 3: known me since I was seventeen, And I said, Laurie,

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Speaker 3: so you know that thing I've been doing for like

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Speaker 3: a long time, don't want to do that anymore. I'm

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Speaker 3: thinking of trying to apply for a general management position

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Speaker 3: consulting position, and she's like, Okay, Maya, before you do that.

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Speaker 3: I can see her like clinging on to the student

375
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Speaker 3: that she's coached for so long, being like, I don't

376
00:20:01,476 --> 00:20:03,876
Speaker 3: want to lose you in the field. She tells me

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00:20:03,996 --> 00:20:08,316
Speaker 3: about this remarkable work that's happening in the federal government

378
00:20:08,356 --> 00:20:09,956
Speaker 3: at the time. So this was in the Obama White

379
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Speaker 3: House where they were leveraging insights from the field of

380
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Speaker 3: behavioral economics from the stuff that I was studying in

381
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Speaker 3: real time to help feed hungry children. So, long story short,

382
00:20:21,236 --> 00:20:24,196
Speaker 3: the government offers what's called the National School Lunch Program,

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Speaker 3: and despite the fact that millions of kids are eligible

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Speaker 3: for the program, millions of kids were still going hungry

385
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Speaker 3: at school every day because their parents hadn't filled out

386
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Speaker 3: the application form for the program, and a behavioral audit

387
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Speaker 3: of the program revealed that the reason for this is

388
00:20:44,716 --> 00:20:49,836
Speaker 3: the application process was extremely burdensome. It required referencing multiple

389
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Speaker 3: tax documents, it required going to the post office at

390
00:20:53,036 --> 00:20:55,916
Speaker 3: a certain moment in the time, moment in time, and oh,

391
00:20:55,956 --> 00:20:58,396
Speaker 3: if you fill out something wrong, there's a potential penalty

392
00:20:58,396 --> 00:21:01,476
Speaker 3: that you might incur and put yourself in the shoes

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00:21:01,516 --> 00:21:04,916
Speaker 3: of a single mom who's working three shifts to make

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Speaker 3: ends meet, who's trying to make sure that her children

395
00:21:08,116 --> 00:21:10,796
Speaker 3: thrive at school, and we're putting these demands on her

396
00:21:11,236 --> 00:21:13,036
Speaker 3: just to make sure that they gave access to lunch.

397
00:21:13,076 --> 00:21:16,836
Speaker 3: That's unreasonable, right. And then another barrier was that there

398
00:21:16,876 --> 00:21:19,756
Speaker 3: was a stigma associated with signing up your kids for

399
00:21:19,796 --> 00:21:21,956
Speaker 3: a public benefits program. Or later on, when I was

400
00:21:21,956 --> 00:21:23,996
Speaker 3: at the White House, I talked to principles and parents

401
00:21:24,036 --> 00:21:26,476
Speaker 3: who said, look, I work really hard for a living.

402
00:21:26,476 --> 00:21:29,156
Speaker 3: I don't want my kids depending on the government. So

403
00:21:29,236 --> 00:21:31,556
Speaker 3: what they did, in turn was they leveraged the power

404
00:21:31,596 --> 00:21:34,876
Speaker 3: of the default option, and basically what that means is

405
00:21:34,916 --> 00:21:38,436
Speaker 3: they turned the program from an opt in program to

406
00:21:38,556 --> 00:21:43,396
Speaker 3: an opt out program. So now all eligible kids were

407
00:21:43,476 --> 00:21:47,076
Speaker 3: automatically enrolled in the school lunch program and parents had

408
00:21:47,076 --> 00:21:49,956
Speaker 3: to only take a step if they actively wanted to

409
00:21:50,156 --> 00:21:53,756
Speaker 3: unenroll their children. And as a result of this very

410
00:21:53,836 --> 00:21:57,316
Speaker 3: elegant change in the behavioral design of the program, twelve

411
00:21:57,356 --> 00:22:00,076
Speaker 3: and a half million more kids were now eating lunch

412
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Speaker 3: at school every day, and I.

413
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Speaker 1: Was blown away.

414
00:22:04,236 --> 00:22:07,876
Speaker 3: The emotional resonance of this example just oh my gosh.

415
00:22:08,036 --> 00:22:09,916
Speaker 3: It lit me up, and I think out to myself,

416
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Speaker 3: this is what I want to be doing with my life.

417
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Speaker 1: I actually want to be.

418
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Speaker 3: A practitioner of behavioral science. I didn't even know that

419
00:22:16,396 --> 00:22:17,996
Speaker 3: was a thing, but if I can make that into

420
00:22:18,036 --> 00:22:19,956
Speaker 3: a thing, that would be awesome.

421
00:22:20,596 --> 00:22:21,836
Speaker 1: Right, And so.

422
00:22:22,996 --> 00:22:25,036
Speaker 2: I have to trust off you here because I'm looking

423
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Speaker 2: at my sister who's sitting across and it's like every

424
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Speaker 2: time I want to do something, I always I am

425
00:22:29,156 --> 00:22:31,436
Speaker 2: always like, hey, can you google if this is a

426
00:22:31,436 --> 00:22:33,356
Speaker 2: thing or not? Like am I allowed to be doing this?

427
00:22:33,556 --> 00:22:35,876
Speaker 2: Like I want to be a social worker with a PhD,

428
00:22:36,476 --> 00:22:38,076
Speaker 2: But I really want to do this kind of Is

429
00:22:38,076 --> 00:22:40,316
Speaker 2: that a thing? Is anyone else? Where's the blueprint for this?

430
00:22:40,876 --> 00:22:42,596
Speaker 2: And sometimes there's not a blueprint? Right?

431
00:22:43,196 --> 00:22:43,396
Speaker 1: Yeah?

432
00:22:43,436 --> 00:22:46,196
Speaker 3: There had been the seminal book written by Cass Sunstein

433
00:22:46,236 --> 00:22:48,756
Speaker 3: and Richard Thaler called Nudge, and some work that was

434
00:22:48,756 --> 00:22:51,676
Speaker 3: happening overseas, but the federal government was not hiring for

435
00:22:51,716 --> 00:22:54,916
Speaker 3: a behavioral scientist. And so I so desperately wanted to

436
00:22:55,156 --> 00:22:57,596
Speaker 3: this role that the role didn't exist.

437
00:22:57,916 --> 00:22:58,876
Speaker 1: And so what do I do?

438
00:22:59,236 --> 00:23:04,116
Speaker 3: I recruit my mom's Juilliard method the cold I.

439
00:23:04,076 --> 00:23:06,916
Speaker 2: Was going to guess that you pulled your mom's Juilliard.

440
00:23:07,356 --> 00:23:08,836
Speaker 1: I pulled the mom's Juilliard methods.

441
00:23:08,836 --> 00:23:11,996
Speaker 3: So what I did is I ended up sending Cass Sunstein,

442
00:23:12,116 --> 00:23:14,756
Speaker 3: right author of this book Nudge, and a former Obama official,

443
00:23:15,116 --> 00:23:19,636
Speaker 3: a cold email in which I basically said, Hey, I'm Maya.

444
00:23:19,876 --> 00:23:22,996
Speaker 3: I am a postdoc who's published nothing of significance, and

445
00:23:23,036 --> 00:23:26,276
Speaker 3: I have no public policy experience, but I'd love to

446
00:23:26,316 --> 00:23:29,396
Speaker 3: work in government at the intersection of behavioral science and policy.

447
00:23:29,876 --> 00:23:31,676
Speaker 3: It was just like seeping with insecurities.

448
00:23:31,676 --> 00:23:32,036
Speaker 1: Brene.

449
00:23:32,036 --> 00:23:34,436
Speaker 3: I even wrote, I know I'm not cool enough to

450
00:23:34,476 --> 00:23:36,316
Speaker 3: work with the likes of Obama, but if there's a

451
00:23:36,396 --> 00:23:40,276
Speaker 3: state or local government opportunity, please do let me know.

452
00:23:40,996 --> 00:23:46,156
Speaker 3: And thankfully for me like pass ignored all the insecurity

453
00:23:46,756 --> 00:23:50,196
Speaker 3: and he wrote back within minutes saying, so great to

454
00:23:50,236 --> 00:23:52,956
Speaker 3: hear from you, Maya. I'm connecting you with President Obama's

455
00:23:52,996 --> 00:23:57,516
Speaker 3: science advisor. Let them know I passed you along. And

456
00:23:57,556 --> 00:24:00,916
Speaker 3: within days two days later, I'm buying a business suit

457
00:24:00,956 --> 00:24:05,116
Speaker 3: because I had an interview with White House officials where

458
00:24:05,316 --> 00:24:08,476
Speaker 3: I'm pitching them on this idea of creating a new

459
00:24:08,556 --> 00:24:11,316
Speaker 3: role for me, a role that is dedicated to the

460
00:24:11,316 --> 00:24:16,796
Speaker 3: translation of behavioral science into improvements in public policy. And

461
00:24:16,876 --> 00:24:18,956
Speaker 3: I remember I had the meeting, you know, I had

462
00:24:18,956 --> 00:24:21,556
Speaker 3: this interview, right, and can I just share there was

463
00:24:21,556 --> 00:24:23,276
Speaker 3: like a Michelle Obama moment, just.

464
00:24:23,236 --> 00:24:24,596
Speaker 2: Like totally coming away.

465
00:24:25,036 --> 00:24:27,796
Speaker 3: So I had been waxing poetic for some time about

466
00:24:28,876 --> 00:24:32,756
Speaker 3: the potential virtues of applying behavioral science to policy, right.

467
00:24:32,756 --> 00:24:35,076
Speaker 3: It had been mapped out by many researchers. We were

468
00:24:35,076 --> 00:24:38,676
Speaker 3: all kind of getting excited about the translation space. And

469
00:24:38,716 --> 00:24:42,596
Speaker 3: I remember I was pitching the person who would become

470
00:24:42,596 --> 00:24:45,436
Speaker 3: my future boss on some changes I would love to

471
00:24:45,436 --> 00:24:48,676
Speaker 3: see in the messaging around Michelle Obama's Let's Move initiative,

472
00:24:50,116 --> 00:24:53,276
Speaker 3: and his response was, oh, yeah, I know Michelle Obama

473
00:24:53,236 --> 00:24:56,556
Speaker 3: and or her team, we can make that happen. And

474
00:24:56,636 --> 00:25:00,876
Speaker 3: I was like, you want shit, Oh shit, Okay, I

475
00:25:00,916 --> 00:25:03,156
Speaker 3: guess this is like a real thing now, you know.

476
00:25:03,556 --> 00:25:05,756
Speaker 3: And it was in that moment that I was filled

477
00:25:06,716 --> 00:25:09,796
Speaker 3: kind of with that same excitement and adrenaline and enjoy

478
00:25:09,876 --> 00:25:12,316
Speaker 3: that I felt when I was playing the violin. I

479
00:25:12,356 --> 00:25:14,836
Speaker 3: was like, Wow, this sky it felt like a sky's

480
00:25:14,836 --> 00:25:18,156
Speaker 3: the limit situation. And so at the end of the interview,

481
00:25:18,356 --> 00:25:21,276
Speaker 3: he said, Mamaya loved talking to you. I love to

482
00:25:21,316 --> 00:25:24,476
Speaker 3: stay in touch, and I'm like, why stays touched? Do

483
00:25:24,476 --> 00:25:27,596
Speaker 3: you mean like, don't call me, I'll call you. Like

484
00:25:27,636 --> 00:25:30,436
Speaker 3: we're going to be besties, hang out on the weekends,

485
00:25:30,436 --> 00:25:33,156
Speaker 3: we're going to work together. Do you mind just clarifying?

486
00:25:33,276 --> 00:25:36,076
Speaker 3: And so he says, well, there's just a couple things

487
00:25:36,076 --> 00:25:38,236
Speaker 3: that need to happen. One, Obama needs to get reelected

488
00:25:38,236 --> 00:25:40,476
Speaker 3: in a few weeks. This was in October of twenty twelve.

489
00:25:40,916 --> 00:25:41,276
Speaker 1: Two.

490
00:25:41,796 --> 00:25:43,796
Speaker 3: I need to run this up the chain and make

491
00:25:43,836 --> 00:25:46,596
Speaker 3: sure that everyone's on board. In three, we need to

492
00:25:46,636 --> 00:25:48,636
Speaker 3: make sure there's a desk for you. And that's also

493
00:25:48,676 --> 00:25:51,316
Speaker 3: when like my West Wing dreams were kind of shattered.

494
00:25:51,356 --> 00:25:55,676
Speaker 3: I'd imagined the White House as this like resource rich environment,

495
00:25:55,716 --> 00:25:58,036
Speaker 3: and it turns out everyone's really scrappy in there.

496
00:25:58,196 --> 00:25:59,116
Speaker 1: We're all just trying to.

497
00:25:59,036 --> 00:26:01,316
Speaker 3: Make ends meet. And so I end up moving to

498
00:26:02,716 --> 00:26:07,036
Speaker 3: DC with a very informal verbal offer. So before I

499
00:26:07,036 --> 00:26:10,356
Speaker 3: even have a formal offered at my bags, I've sold

500
00:26:10,436 --> 00:26:13,276
Speaker 3: everything in California except for my bike, just in case,

501
00:26:13,756 --> 00:26:16,716
Speaker 3: and I move across the country. I sign a one

502
00:26:16,756 --> 00:26:19,516
Speaker 3: year lease in DC, and I essentially just show up

503
00:26:19,596 --> 00:26:21,676
Speaker 3: on the doorsteps of the White House and I'm like,

504
00:26:21,996 --> 00:26:26,756
Speaker 3: I'm here, let's make this happen. And sure enough the

505
00:26:27,116 --> 00:26:30,036
Speaker 3: job gets secured and I started at the beginning of

506
00:26:30,036 --> 00:26:32,036
Speaker 3: Abam the second term.

507
00:26:32,796 --> 00:26:34,396
Speaker 2: So one of the things I want to do because

508
00:26:34,556 --> 00:26:36,036
Speaker 2: I want to know the rest of the story. We're

509
00:26:36,036 --> 00:26:39,356
Speaker 2: in it, but I know there are Yeah, no, it's great,

510
00:26:39,396 --> 00:26:42,916
Speaker 2: but I want to pause for a second and say something.

511
00:26:43,636 --> 00:26:45,916
Speaker 2: I want to share a thought and then get your

512
00:26:45,916 --> 00:26:51,636
Speaker 2: feedback on it. The walking into Juilliard kind of uninvited, unannounced,

513
00:26:52,596 --> 00:26:56,076
Speaker 2: the calling folks and saying, hey, I'd really love to

514
00:26:56,116 --> 00:27:00,436
Speaker 2: do this. I've had some real slighting door of moments

515
00:27:00,476 --> 00:27:02,756
Speaker 2: like that in my career, Like moments that I just

516
00:27:02,956 --> 00:27:06,316
Speaker 2: were not supposed to work, but they did. But there

517
00:27:06,396 --> 00:27:09,036
Speaker 2: was a shit ton of work. It's not like you

518
00:27:09,276 --> 00:27:12,756
Speaker 2: picked up a violin on Monday and on Friday you

519
00:27:12,756 --> 00:27:15,116
Speaker 2: thought you should be at Juilliard. How many hours do

520
00:27:15,196 --> 00:27:18,516
Speaker 2: you think you had practiced from the time you first

521
00:27:18,516 --> 00:27:20,356
Speaker 2: picked it up to the time your mom said let's

522
00:27:20,396 --> 00:27:20,876
Speaker 2: just go in.

523
00:27:21,156 --> 00:27:23,996
Speaker 1: I mean thousands, right, yeah, right.

524
00:27:24,316 --> 00:27:27,036
Speaker 3: You raise an extremely important point that I think is

525
00:27:27,076 --> 00:27:31,676
Speaker 3: sometimes easy to overlook, Like these moments only work when

526
00:27:31,676 --> 00:27:36,516
Speaker 3: you come immensely prepared. So the minute that I get

527
00:27:36,556 --> 00:27:40,796
Speaker 3: this potential White House interview, I mean, I'm spending forty

528
00:27:40,836 --> 00:27:45,316
Speaker 3: eight hours in the most intense prep mode of my life,

529
00:27:45,516 --> 00:27:49,836
Speaker 3: right Like, every minute is accounted for in terms of

530
00:27:49,876 --> 00:27:51,636
Speaker 3: prepping for this interview. And of course, now I don't

531
00:27:51,676 --> 00:27:52,756
Speaker 3: want to make it seem like I did all the

532
00:27:52,796 --> 00:27:55,716
Speaker 3: prep in two days. I had done years of work

533
00:27:55,916 --> 00:27:58,796
Speaker 3: as an actual cognitive scientist, so I obviously knew all

534
00:27:58,836 --> 00:28:01,716
Speaker 3: the research stuff, but certainly with the violin, it wasn't

535
00:28:01,796 --> 00:28:04,316
Speaker 3: enough to just show up and have the audition. I

536
00:28:04,356 --> 00:28:06,156
Speaker 3: had to do a good job in the audition. I

537
00:28:06,196 --> 00:28:07,916
Speaker 3: had to show up having done the hard work.

538
00:28:09,196 --> 00:28:21,196
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's just a super powerful combination of competency and

539
00:28:21,396 --> 00:28:25,116
Speaker 2: just ballsiness and love and passion that is just the

540
00:28:25,156 --> 00:28:30,076
Speaker 2: swirl of it is so powerful. But it all has

541
00:28:30,156 --> 00:28:31,716
Speaker 2: to be there. There has to be a passion and

542
00:28:31,756 --> 00:28:34,076
Speaker 2: love for what we're doing. There has to be the work,

543
00:28:34,156 --> 00:28:37,116
Speaker 2: the competency, the mastery, and then there has to be

544
00:28:37,196 --> 00:28:41,676
Speaker 2: some really courageous Anyone seeing what I'm doing right now

545
00:28:41,716 --> 00:28:45,076
Speaker 2: would think I'm nuts to even ask moments, but I

546
00:28:45,116 --> 00:28:53,356
Speaker 2: think it's very easy to kind of become magnetized to

547
00:28:53,716 --> 00:28:59,676
Speaker 2: an idea without understanding every variable that's at play. Well said,

548
00:29:01,436 --> 00:29:05,556
Speaker 2: it's complicated for people to I think sometimes I'm thinking.

549
00:29:05,596 --> 00:29:07,676
Speaker 2: I just interviewed James Clear for the Dare to Lead

550
00:29:07,716 --> 00:29:10,396
Speaker 2: podcast which will air in December, and talking about habits

551
00:29:10,436 --> 00:29:14,036
Speaker 2: and change, and we were talking about this thing of

552
00:29:14,276 --> 00:29:19,516
Speaker 2: consistency over intensity, and I'm thinking about the consistency in

553
00:29:19,556 --> 00:29:26,116
Speaker 2: your violin plane, the consistency in your academic preparedness. It's there, right,

554
00:29:26,356 --> 00:29:28,796
Speaker 2: It's not just the intense moments of reaching out and

555
00:29:28,836 --> 00:29:29,916
Speaker 2: trying something ballsy.

556
00:29:30,316 --> 00:29:33,996
Speaker 3: Yeah, And in many ways, there's this positive feedback loop,

557
00:29:33,996 --> 00:29:36,676
Speaker 3: which is when you put in the hard work, it

558
00:29:36,756 --> 00:29:39,836
Speaker 3: fuels you to make these courageous decisions because they actually

559
00:29:39,876 --> 00:29:44,156
Speaker 3: feel less courageous because you think you deserve it. You

560
00:29:44,196 --> 00:29:47,276
Speaker 3: think that there could be a chance because you have

561
00:29:47,316 --> 00:29:48,236
Speaker 3: put in the hard work.

562
00:29:48,956 --> 00:29:49,956
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really interesting.

563
00:29:50,076 --> 00:29:52,756
Speaker 3: So I almost see them as really interconnected. People will

564
00:29:52,796 --> 00:29:55,396
Speaker 3: say sometimes why did you and your mom walk into

565
00:29:55,396 --> 00:29:58,956
Speaker 3: that building? And it's like, because I felt like I

566
00:29:59,156 --> 00:30:02,156
Speaker 3: could have what it takes. I didn't feel I had it,

567
00:30:02,796 --> 00:30:04,556
Speaker 3: but I felt like I could because I'd put it

568
00:30:04,556 --> 00:30:07,516
Speaker 3: in so much hard work and I had seen progress.

569
00:30:09,276 --> 00:30:11,516
Speaker 2: It's funny that you say that, because one of the

570
00:30:11,516 --> 00:30:16,156
Speaker 2: things that's been really important for me is this idea

571
00:30:16,196 --> 00:30:22,116
Speaker 2: of mastery over success, kind of always learning. And one

572
00:30:22,116 --> 00:30:23,716
Speaker 2: of the questions I ask when I'm getting ready to

573
00:30:23,756 --> 00:30:29,036
Speaker 2: do something really may feel outrageous in an area of

574
00:30:29,076 --> 00:30:33,356
Speaker 2: mastery for me is if not me, whom you know?

575
00:30:33,396 --> 00:30:36,396
Speaker 2: Why not? It's not like I'm going to I'm walking

576
00:30:36,396 --> 00:30:39,436
Speaker 2: into Juilliard, never having held a violin in my life.

577
00:30:39,436 --> 00:30:43,076
Speaker 2: It's just the relationship between the two things, between mastery

578
00:30:43,276 --> 00:30:47,716
Speaker 2: and courage is really interesting that you think absolutely.

579
00:30:47,756 --> 00:30:48,716
Speaker 1: It actually reminds me.

580
00:30:48,796 --> 00:30:51,516
Speaker 3: You know, one of my favorite movies is Free Solo

581
00:30:51,836 --> 00:30:52,996
Speaker 3: because I don't know if you're.

582
00:30:52,836 --> 00:30:55,316
Speaker 1: Familiar with this movie, but oh god, yeah, Alex Hunneled.

583
00:30:55,396 --> 00:30:58,756
Speaker 3: Just for listeners who haven't seen the movie, but Alex

584
00:30:58,796 --> 00:31:04,116
Speaker 3: hunneled Free solos El Capitan in Yosemite Park, and free

585
00:31:04,116 --> 00:31:08,076
Speaker 3: soloing means literally no gear, no ropes, You're on your own.

586
00:31:09,196 --> 00:31:14,196
Speaker 3: And the reason that I loved the movie is that

587
00:31:14,756 --> 00:31:18,636
Speaker 3: I think it's I think it taught so many viewers

588
00:31:18,796 --> 00:31:22,836
Speaker 3: that they were laboring under a false understanding of what

589
00:31:22,916 --> 00:31:25,596
Speaker 3: it is that Alex does so a lot of people say,

590
00:31:25,636 --> 00:31:28,236
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, do you have a death wish? Why

591
00:31:28,276 --> 00:31:30,596
Speaker 3: are you willing to put yourself in these insanely high

592
00:31:30,636 --> 00:31:31,556
Speaker 3: risk situations?

593
00:31:31,556 --> 00:31:34,116
Speaker 1: Are you out of your mind? But what the movie

594
00:31:34,196 --> 00:31:34,676
Speaker 1: does is.

595
00:31:34,676 --> 00:31:38,676
Speaker 3: It teaches you that Alex saw his climbing essentially like

596
00:31:38,716 --> 00:31:44,156
Speaker 3: a choreograph dance. Every single move was mapped out in

597
00:31:44,236 --> 00:31:49,916
Speaker 3: his head with incredible detail and precision and practice. He

598
00:31:49,956 --> 00:31:54,676
Speaker 3: had redone all of these moves with ropes countless times,

599
00:31:55,396 --> 00:31:59,596
Speaker 3: such that by the time he decided to actually make

600
00:31:59,676 --> 00:32:05,116
Speaker 3: the ascent, it no longer felt risky to him. Now, granted,

601
00:32:05,156 --> 00:32:07,476
Speaker 3: there are exogynous variables that play a role in humpy

602
00:32:07,516 --> 00:32:10,716
Speaker 3: free solo. You can't saw for the rock falling from

603
00:32:10,876 --> 00:32:14,236
Speaker 3: you know whatever? Yeah, of course, so yeah, I mean

604
00:32:14,276 --> 00:32:16,676
Speaker 3: I'm never going to be a free solo er. Also,

605
00:32:16,836 --> 00:32:19,156
Speaker 3: I probably don't have the athletic ability, but that's another

606
00:32:19,476 --> 00:32:22,676
Speaker 3: that's an aside, But that illustrates to me. I think

607
00:32:22,716 --> 00:32:25,836
Speaker 3: what you're getting at and what I felt with Juilliard, right,

608
00:32:25,876 --> 00:32:29,596
Speaker 3: which is you get to the point where you have

609
00:32:29,716 --> 00:32:34,836
Speaker 3: such mastery it no longer feels as risky to do.

610
00:32:36,156 --> 00:32:38,316
Speaker 1: The outrageous thing.

611
00:32:39,676 --> 00:32:42,996
Speaker 2: And what's interesting too, there's something beletic about it for

612
00:32:43,036 --> 00:32:50,716
Speaker 2: me as well, because sometimes true mastery is perceived as easy,

613
00:32:50,916 --> 00:32:53,556
Speaker 2: and that's because it looks easy because of the level

614
00:32:53,596 --> 00:32:55,756
Speaker 2: of mastery. Does that make sense?

615
00:32:55,836 --> 00:32:56,876
Speaker 1: Absolutely? Yeah.

616
00:32:56,916 --> 00:32:59,116
Speaker 3: I mean I was talking with Angela Duckworth about this, right,

617
00:32:59,156 --> 00:33:02,716
Speaker 3: We were talking about grit and deliberated practice and all

618
00:33:02,756 --> 00:33:06,556
Speaker 3: these things, and exactly those same themes were emerging from

619
00:33:06,556 --> 00:33:09,836
Speaker 3: our conversation. Which is in the same way that you

620
00:33:09,916 --> 00:33:13,076
Speaker 3: see only the success stories and not the failures. Right

621
00:33:13,116 --> 00:33:14,916
Speaker 3: when you see the mastery, it's really hard to see

622
00:33:15,076 --> 00:33:17,276
Speaker 3: all that went into it.

623
00:33:17,476 --> 00:33:21,436
Speaker 2: So interesting, all right, So tell us, I've got, as

624
00:33:21,476 --> 00:33:26,516
Speaker 2: you can imagine, I've got five gagillion questions. What have

625
00:33:26,636 --> 00:33:32,516
Speaker 2: you learned about change and how we change, how we

626
00:33:32,556 --> 00:33:36,276
Speaker 2: resist change, how we approach change. What have you learned

627
00:33:36,476 --> 00:33:39,556
Speaker 2: about change that still shocks you?

628
00:33:41,636 --> 00:33:44,316
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question. I'm having a new thought

629
00:33:44,316 --> 00:33:47,156
Speaker 3: in this moment, which is I think the reason why

630
00:33:47,196 --> 00:33:49,756
Speaker 3: we can have so much discomfort in the face of

631
00:33:49,876 --> 00:33:53,156
Speaker 3: change is because it threatens our sense of self identity.

632
00:33:54,676 --> 00:33:58,156
Speaker 3: Say that again, I think the reason why we can

633
00:33:58,236 --> 00:34:01,356
Speaker 3: have so much anxiety or trepidation in the face of

634
00:34:01,436 --> 00:34:05,316
Speaker 3: change is because it can threaten our sense of self.

635
00:34:05,796 --> 00:34:09,236
Speaker 3: It can threaten our self identity.

636
00:34:09,676 --> 00:34:13,396
Speaker 2: So if change is threatening our sense of self or

637
00:34:13,476 --> 00:34:16,756
Speaker 2: our identity, what is the what's it whispering? What is

638
00:34:17,036 --> 00:34:20,796
Speaker 2: change telling us that feels threatening? Yeah? Let me's a messaging.

639
00:34:20,916 --> 00:34:23,636
Speaker 3: Let me call upon my own experience right to help

640
00:34:23,716 --> 00:34:27,036
Speaker 3: unpack this a bit, which is, as you and I

641
00:34:27,076 --> 00:34:30,116
Speaker 3: know from my story, I lose the violin and I

642
00:34:30,316 --> 00:34:31,756
Speaker 3: don't know who I am. I don't know what my

643
00:34:31,876 --> 00:34:33,476
Speaker 3: value is in this world. I don't know what I'm

644
00:34:33,476 --> 00:34:39,396
Speaker 3: going to attach myself to next. And what that taught me.

645
00:34:39,476 --> 00:34:42,076
Speaker 3: The lesson that I learned from that experience is that

646
00:34:42,796 --> 00:34:47,516
Speaker 3: it's much more sustainable to attach my identity to the

647
00:34:47,596 --> 00:34:51,316
Speaker 3: features of pursuits that light me up and make me tick,

648
00:34:51,956 --> 00:34:56,996
Speaker 3: rather than a very specific activity or thing. And as

649
00:34:57,036 --> 00:34:59,156
Speaker 3: I mentioned to you, what I learned is that the

650
00:34:59,316 --> 00:35:02,636
Speaker 3: actual thing that made me light up about the violin

651
00:35:02,916 --> 00:35:07,036
Speaker 3: wasn't necessarily the violin itself. It was an instrument, uh

652
00:35:07,116 --> 00:35:09,396
Speaker 3: there with the puns, but it was an instrument and

653
00:35:09,436 --> 00:35:14,356
Speaker 3: for forging emotional connections with other people. So I learned, ah, okay,

654
00:35:14,396 --> 00:35:16,916
Speaker 3: that's a trait of the violin that I loved. Let

655
00:35:16,956 --> 00:35:19,636
Speaker 3: me see if I can now find that trait in

656
00:35:19,716 --> 00:35:24,156
Speaker 3: other things, because life will present barriers and obstacles and

657
00:35:24,196 --> 00:35:26,156
Speaker 3: twists and turns that many of which are out of

658
00:35:26,156 --> 00:35:29,756
Speaker 3: my control, that deny me the ability to pursue certain

659
00:35:29,796 --> 00:35:31,596
Speaker 3: things that I love. Let me see if I can

660
00:35:31,596 --> 00:35:35,436
Speaker 3: find it elsewhere. And I was able to find it elsewhere.

661
00:35:35,476 --> 00:35:38,556
Speaker 3: So I found that same desire for human connection in

662
00:35:38,676 --> 00:35:41,836
Speaker 3: studying cognitive science. I literally study how it is that

663
00:35:41,876 --> 00:35:45,116
Speaker 3: we relate to other human beings and we make decisions

664
00:35:45,116 --> 00:35:48,596
Speaker 3: and move about in this world. I found that kind

665
00:35:48,636 --> 00:35:50,836
Speaker 3: of same connection when I was working in the Obama

666
00:35:50,876 --> 00:35:54,116
Speaker 3: White House and I was on the ground in Flint, Michigan,

667
00:35:54,476 --> 00:35:57,116
Speaker 3: working on the Leaden water crisis and talking with residents

668
00:35:57,116 --> 00:36:01,076
Speaker 3: of Flint about how decades of disenfranchisement and racism led

669
00:36:01,116 --> 00:36:03,396
Speaker 3: to this problem in the first place and they needed help.

670
00:36:04,036 --> 00:36:08,516
Speaker 3: And I feel that human connection today with my podcast,

671
00:36:08,596 --> 00:36:12,876
Speaker 3: The Slight Chain Plans, which is all about connecting with

672
00:36:12,916 --> 00:36:15,676
Speaker 3: other people who have gone through extraordinary changes in their lives.

673
00:36:15,756 --> 00:36:18,356
Speaker 3: And I feel like I have licensed through this podcast

674
00:36:18,396 --> 00:36:21,476
Speaker 3: to go into a room with you know, Hillary Rodham Clinton,

675
00:36:21,636 --> 00:36:26,236
Speaker 3: or Tiffany Hattish or Tommy Caldwell or Casey Musgraves or

676
00:36:26,316 --> 00:36:29,596
Speaker 3: Riz Ahmed and to say, hey, so I know we

677
00:36:29,756 --> 00:36:32,396
Speaker 3: just met, but what was the most challenging moment of

678
00:36:32,436 --> 00:36:34,596
Speaker 3: your life? Like, what's your deepest, darkest secret. You know,

679
00:36:34,796 --> 00:36:38,516
Speaker 3: it's another way of forging intimacy. And so for those

680
00:36:38,556 --> 00:36:41,516
Speaker 3: people who are listening, who are struggling because life has

681
00:36:41,596 --> 00:36:45,756
Speaker 3: thrown them a change of plans and they feel this

682
00:36:45,916 --> 00:36:47,996
Speaker 3: loss of control and they feel like they've lost the

683
00:36:48,036 --> 00:36:51,556
Speaker 3: thing that they love near and dear, just do an assessment.

684
00:36:51,676 --> 00:36:54,356
Speaker 3: Ask yourself, Okay, I know I can't have that thing,

685
00:36:54,436 --> 00:36:57,876
Speaker 3: but what about that thing did I love? And then

686
00:36:58,036 --> 00:37:03,196
Speaker 3: mine the world for other places where you might find that.

687
00:37:05,636 --> 00:37:10,596
Speaker 2: I'm really just taking it all in. I just I

688
00:37:10,636 --> 00:37:11,996
Speaker 2: just have to warn you that we call this the

689
00:37:12,076 --> 00:37:15,076
Speaker 2: pause cast. Sometimes. I know, I love that I feel

690
00:37:15,076 --> 00:37:18,116
Speaker 2: no need to fill in just open air sometimes because

691
00:37:18,116 --> 00:37:20,396
Speaker 2: I think you've just said a lot of really important

692
00:37:20,396 --> 00:37:24,556
Speaker 2: things that I think is worth sitting with and also

693
00:37:24,716 --> 00:37:30,076
Speaker 2: worth kind of unpacking a little bit. What you're saying

694
00:37:30,236 --> 00:37:35,596
Speaker 2: to me reminds me very much of some purpose work

695
00:37:35,596 --> 00:37:40,316
Speaker 2: that I've done before, where every time I tried to

696
00:37:40,316 --> 00:37:43,036
Speaker 2: figure out, like in these exercises, what's my purpose? What's

697
00:37:43,076 --> 00:37:48,396
Speaker 2: my purpose? The question was always deeper, deeper, deeper, And

698
00:37:48,436 --> 00:37:56,396
Speaker 2: then I got to this really core thing of using

699
00:37:56,916 --> 00:38:04,196
Speaker 2: images and words to connect the seemingly unconnectable to help

700
00:38:04,556 --> 00:38:09,996
Speaker 2: people live braver lives. And then it's so weird because

701
00:38:10,156 --> 00:38:14,836
Speaker 2: that what you're talking about, that thing that is just

702
00:38:15,116 --> 00:38:24,596
Speaker 2: part of me is can survive unwelcome change because I

703
00:38:24,596 --> 00:38:28,196
Speaker 2: can find that and express that through a myriad of things.

704
00:38:29,476 --> 00:38:34,996
Speaker 2: And when I choose to do things that are only

705
00:38:35,156 --> 00:38:38,356
Speaker 2: surface level connected to that bigger thing for me, that

706
00:38:38,396 --> 00:38:41,916
Speaker 2: purpose for me, I freaking hate them. I end up

707
00:38:41,956 --> 00:38:45,236
Speaker 2: hating them. I end up having no passion for them.

708
00:38:45,316 --> 00:38:46,316
Speaker 1: Can you give an example?

709
00:38:46,796 --> 00:38:49,396
Speaker 2: I can? I mean weekly examples, like I have a

710
00:38:49,436 --> 00:38:53,756
Speaker 2: team of thirty people and we go through a lot

711
00:38:53,756 --> 00:38:57,076
Speaker 2: of incoming request to do things, and there are a

712
00:38:57,116 --> 00:39:03,276
Speaker 2: lot of bright and shiny things, and we ask a

713
00:39:03,356 --> 00:39:07,436
Speaker 2: simple question of everything I do, does it serve the work?

714
00:39:08,276 --> 00:39:12,396
Speaker 2: And for me, work is using words and images to

715
00:39:12,396 --> 00:39:15,796
Speaker 2: connect the seemingly unconnectable to help people better understand their

716
00:39:15,796 --> 00:39:19,716
Speaker 2: lives and be braver. And so if it's do you know?

717
00:39:20,476 --> 00:39:26,116
Speaker 2: So when we ask does this serve the work? And

718
00:39:26,156 --> 00:39:30,596
Speaker 2: the answer is no, I normally don't do it. You know,

719
00:39:30,756 --> 00:39:33,556
Speaker 2: does it serve the ego. Maybe I'll do something that

720
00:39:33,676 --> 00:39:36,596
Speaker 2: doesn't really serve the work because it sounds fun. But

721
00:39:37,956 --> 00:39:40,876
Speaker 2: I don't think in the past five years I've done

722
00:39:40,996 --> 00:39:45,036
Speaker 2: anything mistakingly thinking it would serve the work and it wouldn't.

723
00:39:45,076 --> 00:39:48,396
Speaker 2: Just because we're so to use your word about free solo,

724
00:39:48,716 --> 00:39:52,356
Speaker 2: there's so much precision in our vetting of those things.

725
00:39:53,276 --> 00:39:57,036
Speaker 2: When I think about the violin and being on stage

726
00:39:57,716 --> 00:40:00,996
Speaker 2: and connecting to people yourself, and there's something that just

727
00:40:01,036 --> 00:40:03,836
Speaker 2: makes sense to me, just intuitively about the violin and

728
00:40:03,876 --> 00:40:09,596
Speaker 2: the free lunch program. It's about inextricable human connection. Music

729
00:40:09,676 --> 00:40:17,076
Speaker 2: does that, and making sure that kids are eating does that.

730
00:40:18,356 --> 00:40:21,876
Speaker 2: It says no one's full until we're all fed, you know,

731
00:40:21,956 --> 00:40:24,676
Speaker 2: And what are the barriers do that? So let me

732
00:40:24,716 --> 00:40:28,996
Speaker 2: throw something at you, just kind of going so like you,

733
00:40:29,076 --> 00:40:31,716
Speaker 2: I go into organizations a lot, and we work with

734
00:40:31,796 --> 00:40:34,316
Speaker 2: leadership teams, and we work with teams to better understand

735
00:40:34,316 --> 00:40:36,356
Speaker 2: what's going on in culture, what's getting in the way

736
00:40:36,836 --> 00:40:40,716
Speaker 2: of innovation, what's getting the way of productivity. And I

737
00:40:40,756 --> 00:40:44,036
Speaker 2: want you to diagnose something from your lens that we

738
00:40:44,116 --> 00:40:49,596
Speaker 2: have found in our research. The greatest shame trigger at

739
00:40:49,636 --> 00:40:57,236
Speaker 2: work is the threat of being irrelevant, and in the

740
00:40:57,276 --> 00:41:03,156
Speaker 2: midst of change, whether it's a merger and acquisition, digital transformation, reductions,

741
00:41:03,676 --> 00:41:08,716
Speaker 2: in the midst of change, people get very scared. They

742
00:41:08,756 --> 00:41:15,356
Speaker 2: double down, and irrelevance almost becomes a self fulfilling prophecy

743
00:41:15,356 --> 00:41:18,636
Speaker 2: for them, because instead of leaning in and learning what's

744
00:41:18,676 --> 00:41:24,276
Speaker 2: new and how are we changing, they get territorial shut down.

745
00:41:24,396 --> 00:41:26,316
Speaker 2: This is bullshit, This is not the way we've always

746
00:41:26,316 --> 00:41:29,756
Speaker 2: done it. What's happening in that situation?

747
00:41:31,396 --> 00:41:33,396
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's so interesting you share this story

748
00:41:33,436 --> 00:41:37,036
Speaker 3: because I think it really does trace back to back

749
00:41:37,076 --> 00:41:40,236
Speaker 3: to identity and self worth and how much people are

750
00:41:40,236 --> 00:41:45,076
Speaker 3: defining their identity and self worth in their particular jobs right,

751
00:41:45,436 --> 00:41:47,956
Speaker 3: which is very understandable. We have lots of research in

752
00:41:48,036 --> 00:41:51,036
Speaker 3: labor economics showing what a morale boost just being in

753
00:41:51,076 --> 00:41:54,476
Speaker 3: work gives you. I think that's a beautiful thing. I

754
00:41:54,516 --> 00:42:00,436
Speaker 3: will say that, by and large, even though I've had

755
00:42:00,716 --> 00:42:03,236
Speaker 3: guests on a slight change of plans with so many

756
00:42:03,276 --> 00:42:08,556
Speaker 3: diverse stories, the connective tissue between all of them is

757
00:42:08,596 --> 00:42:11,876
Speaker 3: that they've been able to see their identities as far

758
00:42:11,996 --> 00:42:14,636
Speaker 3: more malleable than they otherwise would have.

759
00:42:15,276 --> 00:42:16,956
Speaker 2: Say more about that, So.

760
00:42:16,956 --> 00:42:21,676
Speaker 3: What I mean by that is, they have allowed themselves

761
00:42:21,756 --> 00:42:27,236
Speaker 3: to embody new ways of being, new ways of moving

762
00:42:27,276 --> 00:42:30,716
Speaker 3: about in the world in the face of a big change,

763
00:42:31,316 --> 00:42:34,676
Speaker 3: which has allowed them to navigate that change with less

764
00:42:34,676 --> 00:42:38,356
Speaker 3: anxiety and less fear or you're in the specific case

765
00:42:38,356 --> 00:42:41,476
Speaker 3: of the work like less fear of quote irrelevance. So

766
00:42:41,556 --> 00:42:45,036
Speaker 3: the story that's screaming out to me is around this

767
00:42:45,116 --> 00:42:48,156
Speaker 3: notion of like identity. Specifically, there's this guy named Scott

768
00:42:48,156 --> 00:42:50,796
Speaker 3: who I interviewed. He's actually just a colleague of my husband's.

769
00:42:51,556 --> 00:42:55,396
Speaker 3: He is in his early thirties, he's a cancer researcher,

770
00:42:55,436 --> 00:42:58,796
Speaker 3: he builds breast cancer detection tools, and he's a self

771
00:42:58,836 --> 00:43:00,996
Speaker 3: proclaimed health nut. So he's spent the last decade of

772
00:43:00,996 --> 00:43:03,476
Speaker 3: his life trying to optimize his life. So I'm talking

773
00:43:03,676 --> 00:43:08,316
Speaker 3: intermittent fasting, high intensity interval training, chi as seeds, turmeric,

774
00:43:08,396 --> 00:43:13,756
Speaker 3: the whole shebang. And last year in twenty twenty, he

775
00:43:13,836 --> 00:43:17,556
Speaker 3: gets a stage four bone cancer diagnosis Jesus that within

776
00:43:17,636 --> 00:43:20,796
Speaker 3: weeks leads him to have to amputate his right leg,

777
00:43:23,836 --> 00:43:27,596
Speaker 3: move to M d Anderson in Texas, receive eighteen administrations

778
00:43:27,636 --> 00:43:31,756
Speaker 3: of chemotherapy and remove a vertebra from a spine and

779
00:43:32,236 --> 00:43:33,876
Speaker 3: multiple other surgeries.

780
00:43:34,396 --> 00:43:35,436
Speaker 2: Oh God.

781
00:43:36,436 --> 00:43:42,516
Speaker 3: Now Scott is telling me I have this identity as

782
00:43:42,516 --> 00:43:45,836
Speaker 3: a fit person, right as someone who is super healthy

783
00:43:45,876 --> 00:43:48,716
Speaker 3: and can conquer the world, and who's got all the

784
00:43:48,756 --> 00:43:52,836
Speaker 3: potential in the world. And he said, And I'm sitting

785
00:43:52,876 --> 00:43:56,676
Speaker 3: here now, six months into my chemotherapy, having a cup

786
00:43:56,716 --> 00:44:03,756
Speaker 3: of coffee, and I'm realizing that maybe these parts of

787
00:44:03,796 --> 00:44:08,076
Speaker 3: my identity are more negotiable than I thought. That's the

788
00:44:08,116 --> 00:44:08,956
Speaker 3: word that he used.

789
00:44:09,196 --> 00:44:10,716
Speaker 2: Negotiable's the word negotiable.

790
00:44:10,836 --> 00:44:11,476
Speaker 1: Negotiable.

791
00:44:11,876 --> 00:44:14,076
Speaker 2: Wow, Okay, I say more that I'm still.

792
00:44:13,876 --> 00:44:16,876
Speaker 3: Scott at the end of the day, that the things

793
00:44:16,916 --> 00:44:19,836
Speaker 3: that I find joy in, I can still find joy in.

794
00:44:20,076 --> 00:44:22,996
Speaker 3: I still love that bite of food, I still love

795
00:44:23,076 --> 00:44:25,716
Speaker 3: that sound of music. At the moment, I can't walk,

796
00:44:25,756 --> 00:44:32,276
Speaker 3: I can't run a marathon. But I'm realizing that Scott

797
00:44:32,796 --> 00:44:34,916
Speaker 3: in many ways he was telling me, Brene, that Scott

798
00:44:34,956 --> 00:44:38,956
Speaker 3: was bigger, was more robust than maybe the Scott he

799
00:44:38,996 --> 00:44:44,076
Speaker 3: had thought he was before. You know that Scott inhabits

800
00:44:44,076 --> 00:44:50,196
Speaker 3: a much broader array of wonderful traits and characteristics and ability.

801
00:44:51,556 --> 00:44:53,796
Speaker 2: He's transcended a very small identity.

802
00:44:54,156 --> 00:44:56,796
Speaker 3: He's transcending. So I do want to pay amens to

803
00:44:56,836 --> 00:44:58,796
Speaker 3: the fact that he's in the middle of this process

804
00:44:58,916 --> 00:45:01,476
Speaker 3: and it's not complete, but he's in the throes of it,

805
00:45:01,556 --> 00:45:05,076
Speaker 3: and he's realizing for the first time ever that he

806
00:45:05,196 --> 00:45:07,876
Speaker 3: needs to start seeing his identity in this way. And

807
00:45:08,916 --> 00:45:12,476
Speaker 3: an another thing that really surprised him is this guy's

808
00:45:12,516 --> 00:45:17,476
Speaker 3: worst nightmare came true, right, And he's also sitting there

809
00:45:17,516 --> 00:45:21,556
Speaker 3: having this cup of coffee, telling me, I feel like

810
00:45:23,076 --> 00:45:28,636
Speaker 3: the psychological thermostat has prevailed, my psychological immune system has prevailed,

811
00:45:28,676 --> 00:45:32,476
Speaker 3: because I more or less feel as happy as I

812
00:45:32,516 --> 00:45:35,956
Speaker 3: did before. And he said, sure, the lows are lower,

813
00:45:36,116 --> 00:45:39,516
Speaker 3: you know, the treatments are deeply uncomfortable. He described having

814
00:45:39,556 --> 00:45:44,396
Speaker 3: Civil War pain with the amputation. But I, Scott, feel

815
00:45:44,556 --> 00:45:50,076
Speaker 3: whole and I feel more or less again just as happy.

816
00:45:50,716 --> 00:45:55,196
Speaker 3: And I am stunned by that because this completely ran

817
00:45:55,316 --> 00:45:59,916
Speaker 3: counter to his old model of himself. How Scott would

818
00:45:59,916 --> 00:46:03,436
Speaker 3: respond to this experience. And so, look, this is not

819
00:46:03,556 --> 00:46:06,956
Speaker 3: everyone's experience with illness or disease or any kind of change,

820
00:46:06,956 --> 00:46:08,476
Speaker 3: but it is Scott's experience.

821
00:46:09,676 --> 00:46:12,156
Speaker 2: What a beautiful story. I'm going to send all my

822
00:46:12,236 --> 00:46:17,276
Speaker 2: good prayers and just thoughts to Scott in this process,

823
00:46:17,316 --> 00:46:21,476
Speaker 2: because what an incredible story of I love how you

824
00:46:21,556 --> 00:46:25,516
Speaker 2: caught me and said he's transcending, like he's in process. Yeah,

825
00:46:25,556 --> 00:46:29,276
Speaker 2: and sometimes that lasts three days and sometimes at last

826
00:46:29,356 --> 00:46:32,916
Speaker 2: thirty years. Sometimes every morning we recommit to transcending, I

827
00:46:32,916 --> 00:46:39,156
Speaker 2: think after a big change. So let me ask you

828
00:46:39,196 --> 00:46:43,356
Speaker 2: this question. The podcast is fascinating, and you know I

829
00:46:43,356 --> 00:46:46,156
Speaker 2: can't help, but as a qualitative researcher or think, what

830
00:46:46,196 --> 00:46:47,916
Speaker 2: are the themes and patterns that I'm hearing here that

831
00:46:47,916 --> 00:46:52,076
Speaker 2: are saturating across the interviews which you're sharing with us.

832
00:46:52,836 --> 00:46:58,956
Speaker 2: Help me reverse engineer into what we can do or

833
00:46:59,036 --> 00:47:05,356
Speaker 2: think about on a daily basis to become more malleable,

834
00:47:06,356 --> 00:47:08,916
Speaker 2: to become bigger than the identities that we rest in

835
00:47:08,956 --> 00:47:14,036
Speaker 2: all often, how can we what's the word I'm looking for,

836
00:47:15,036 --> 00:47:18,996
Speaker 2: build resilience to change now as opposed to trying to

837
00:47:19,036 --> 00:47:20,116
Speaker 2: build it in the midst of it.

838
00:47:21,556 --> 00:47:22,716
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great question.

839
00:47:23,636 --> 00:47:28,516
Speaker 3: I think it is to appreciate what complex ecosystems we

840
00:47:28,636 --> 00:47:33,276
Speaker 3: are just by virtue of being human. And the reason

841
00:47:33,316 --> 00:47:38,516
Speaker 3: I say that is any given change in our life

842
00:47:38,556 --> 00:47:41,756
Speaker 3: doesn't happen in a vacuum. So I think we tend

843
00:47:41,756 --> 00:47:43,836
Speaker 3: to think, oh, I'm just going to be I'm going

844
00:47:43,916 --> 00:47:45,836
Speaker 3: to be me Maya. But it's as though I'm going

845
00:47:45,836 --> 00:47:48,356
Speaker 3: to walk through this magic mirror and this one thing

846
00:47:48,396 --> 00:47:51,436
Speaker 3: will have changed about me. But that's not actually a

847
00:47:51,516 --> 00:47:56,716
Speaker 3: human's word, no, right, there's all sorts of unexpected spillover

848
00:47:56,796 --> 00:47:59,636
Speaker 3: effects on other parts of our lives and our sense

849
00:47:59,676 --> 00:48:04,516
Speaker 3: of self that we simply can't predict. And again we

850
00:48:04,516 --> 00:48:07,036
Speaker 3: do fall prey to this cognitive fallacy like, oh, you know,

851
00:48:07,876 --> 00:48:09,956
Speaker 3: I'm going to change this one thing, but like everything

852
00:48:09,956 --> 00:48:13,316
Speaker 3: else is going to stay firmly intact and constant. And

853
00:48:14,956 --> 00:48:21,556
Speaker 3: I think when we appreciate that, we won't have the

854
00:48:21,596 --> 00:48:26,596
Speaker 3: whole equation figured out. Kind of ironically, it might lead

855
00:48:26,676 --> 00:48:30,116
Speaker 3: us to embrace change more than we otherwise would have,

856
00:48:30,316 --> 00:48:34,356
Speaker 3: because we're constantly going to surprise ourselves, and we might

857
00:48:34,396 --> 00:48:37,036
Speaker 3: surprise ourselves in the wrong direction. So, for example, there

858
00:48:37,076 --> 00:48:41,236
Speaker 3: was a woman I interviewed named Elna, and her lifelong

859
00:48:41,356 --> 00:48:44,396
Speaker 3: dream was to become thin. She really felt that if

860
00:48:44,396 --> 00:48:46,916
Speaker 3: she could lose the weight, all of her big dreams

861
00:48:46,916 --> 00:48:50,636
Speaker 3: would come true, and she achieved that goal through very

862
00:48:50,676 --> 00:48:53,116
Speaker 3: unhealthy means. In five and a half months, she lost

863
00:48:53,196 --> 00:48:55,956
Speaker 3: over one hundred pounds, and for a while there she

864
00:48:56,076 --> 00:48:58,996
Speaker 3: did think that she was leaving her dream life until

865
00:48:59,756 --> 00:49:02,396
Speaker 3: she started to realize that she was becoming a worse person.

866
00:49:03,076 --> 00:49:05,996
Speaker 3: She was actually losing her self confidence. She felt less

867
00:49:06,036 --> 00:49:11,116
Speaker 3: emboldened in situations, she felt more judgmental, she felt more superficial.

868
00:49:11,356 --> 00:49:14,196
Speaker 3: She was losing these core parts of Elna again that

869
00:49:14,276 --> 00:49:16,836
Speaker 3: she felt would almost certainly stay intact. Right again, she's

870
00:49:16,876 --> 00:49:19,796
Speaker 3: walking through the magic mirror where she's Elna through and through,

871
00:49:19,836 --> 00:49:25,756
Speaker 3: who was before this transition, extremely bold, audacious, outspoken, and

872
00:49:25,796 --> 00:49:27,716
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, she feels like she's losing these

873
00:49:27,756 --> 00:49:31,516
Speaker 3: parts of herself. And so that's an example where she

874
00:49:31,716 --> 00:49:34,156
Speaker 3: was willing what she thought would be a positive change

875
00:49:34,836 --> 00:49:36,196
Speaker 3: and then all of a sudden, it turned out to

876
00:49:36,236 --> 00:49:39,516
Speaker 3: be a negative one. But then you take Scott's story,

877
00:49:40,316 --> 00:49:43,196
Speaker 3: which is he so anticipated that this was going to

878
00:49:43,196 --> 00:49:45,756
Speaker 3: be the worst change of his life, and he's now

879
00:49:45,796 --> 00:49:48,956
Speaker 3: realizing there's all these positive spillover effects in terms of

880
00:49:49,076 --> 00:49:51,916
Speaker 3: how he's developing as a person and how he's seeing himself.

881
00:49:52,956 --> 00:49:58,156
Speaker 3: And so that unexpected element, the richness of the change experience,

882
00:49:58,236 --> 00:50:03,436
Speaker 3: the multifaceted nature of the change experience, is hopefully more

883
00:50:03,476 --> 00:50:06,556
Speaker 3: appealing to people than the black and white model of

884
00:50:06,636 --> 00:50:08,916
Speaker 3: change they may be carrying in their minds. It's going

885
00:50:08,956 --> 00:50:12,316
Speaker 3: to be hard, but it is going to be transformative

886
00:50:12,356 --> 00:50:15,196
Speaker 3: and filled with growth of some kind, and you can

887
00:50:15,236 --> 00:50:16,276
Speaker 3: always hold on to that.

888
00:50:17,996 --> 00:50:22,596
Speaker 2: It's powerful. Yeah, I think people don't think about the

889
00:50:22,596 --> 00:50:27,356
Speaker 2: physics of systems once small change reverberates in places you

890
00:50:27,396 --> 00:50:28,796
Speaker 2: can never even anticipate.

891
00:50:29,316 --> 00:50:32,076
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And look, we know from research, right Brene, like

892
00:50:32,116 --> 00:50:36,316
Speaker 3: we are, we're typically very bad cognitive forecasters. We are

893
00:50:36,396 --> 00:50:39,316
Speaker 3: terrible at predicting how we will respond emotionally to things.

894
00:50:39,476 --> 00:50:43,596
Speaker 3: And look, change circumstances are no different. They're falling into

895
00:50:43,596 --> 00:50:44,236
Speaker 3: the same camp.

896
00:50:46,516 --> 00:50:50,236
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting. Just it's really interesting, like change is coming.

897
00:50:50,316 --> 00:50:52,876
Speaker 2: Maybe the best thing you can do is get an emotional, spiritual,

898
00:50:52,956 --> 00:50:55,356
Speaker 2: physical shape for reverberation.

899
00:50:55,916 --> 00:50:56,276
Speaker 1: Yeah.

900
00:50:56,436 --> 00:50:58,156
Speaker 3: You know, another thing that you're making me think of,

901
00:50:58,236 --> 00:51:01,116
Speaker 3: just in terms of advice for embracing change, is to

902
00:51:01,156 --> 00:51:05,436
Speaker 3: share a personal experience. So in twenty twenty, I was

903
00:51:05,436 --> 00:51:10,436
Speaker 3: feeling absolutely overwhelmed by the change that was happening. I mean,

904
00:51:10,956 --> 00:51:15,516
Speaker 3: there was the pandemic, there was racial injustice upheaval, there

905
00:51:15,516 --> 00:51:19,636
Speaker 3: were personal losses I was experiencing in my own life, miscarriage,

906
00:51:20,036 --> 00:51:26,516
Speaker 3: and I just felt overwhelmed and disoriented. I felt like,

907
00:51:26,596 --> 00:51:29,116
Speaker 3: all of this is so new, and I don't know

908
00:51:29,156 --> 00:51:31,836
Speaker 3: how to manage any of it. But then I put

909
00:51:31,836 --> 00:51:34,836
Speaker 3: on my cognitive science hat, and I realized, while the

910
00:51:34,876 --> 00:51:37,476
Speaker 3: specifics of what twenty twenty is throwing my way and

911
00:51:37,476 --> 00:51:41,836
Speaker 3: throwing our way may be unprecedented, our human ability to

912
00:51:41,956 --> 00:51:47,196
Speaker 3: navigate change is absolutely not unprecedented. We've done this rodeo

913
00:51:47,356 --> 00:51:51,676
Speaker 3: so many times before as a civilization, as individuals, our

914
00:51:51,796 --> 00:51:55,156
Speaker 3: minds are wired for change because it's such a core

915
00:51:55,236 --> 00:51:56,636
Speaker 3: part of the human experience.

916
00:51:57,716 --> 00:51:58,076
Speaker 1: And so.

917
00:51:59,556 --> 00:52:03,996
Speaker 3: What that taught me is it is possi it is

918
00:52:04,116 --> 00:52:08,596
Speaker 3: possible for us to recruit learnings and insights from our

919
00:52:08,636 --> 00:52:12,356
Speaker 3: prior change experiences from other people's change experiences. I mean,

920
00:52:12,356 --> 00:52:14,236
Speaker 3: in many ways, this was the genesis for a slight

921
00:52:14,316 --> 00:52:16,876
Speaker 3: change of plans. I'm like searching the world for people

922
00:52:17,076 --> 00:52:19,836
Speaker 3: with the most fascinating change stories so that I can

923
00:52:19,916 --> 00:52:22,396
Speaker 3: learn as much as I can, so listeners can benefit

924
00:52:22,396 --> 00:52:23,276
Speaker 3: as much as they can.

925
00:52:23,716 --> 00:52:24,676
Speaker 1: And to see that.

926
00:52:26,596 --> 00:52:29,596
Speaker 3: While you might be intimidated by the specific nature of

927
00:52:29,636 --> 00:52:34,076
Speaker 3: the change, don't forget that human psychology can often transcend

928
00:52:34,276 --> 00:52:38,996
Speaker 3: those specifics. There are many episodes where people have reached

929
00:52:38,996 --> 00:52:43,236
Speaker 3: out to me, and the recent divorcee is finding more

930
00:52:43,276 --> 00:52:46,156
Speaker 3: resonance in the cancer patient's story than they are in

931
00:52:46,236 --> 00:52:50,516
Speaker 3: a story about someone who's recently divorced, Because again, it's

932
00:52:50,556 --> 00:52:54,076
Speaker 3: all about human psychology, it's about how we respond to change,

933
00:52:54,116 --> 00:52:57,396
Speaker 3: and so that fills me with optimism at hope for

934
00:52:57,436 --> 00:53:00,316
Speaker 3: a few reasons. One, when I'm confronted with a change,

935
00:53:00,516 --> 00:53:03,716
Speaker 3: I build my confidence by saying, Maya, you've done this

936
00:53:03,836 --> 00:53:07,796
Speaker 3: change thing before, like fear not right. But number two,

937
00:53:09,236 --> 00:53:12,596
Speaker 3: try to dissociate yourselves from yourself from the specifics of

938
00:53:12,636 --> 00:53:14,636
Speaker 3: the change for just a moment. Try to see it

939
00:53:14,636 --> 00:53:17,436
Speaker 3: with some distance and try to figure out what are

940
00:53:17,476 --> 00:53:20,396
Speaker 3: the psychological strategies that you can recruit that you've learned

941
00:53:20,396 --> 00:53:22,636
Speaker 3: from your own guests on a slight change of plans

942
00:53:22,796 --> 00:53:28,236
Speaker 3: to help you navigate this moment. I'm sorry, I'm gonna

943
00:53:28,236 --> 00:53:31,156
Speaker 3: get emotional for a second. This played out in my

944
00:53:31,196 --> 00:53:37,596
Speaker 3: own life recently, where my husband and I lost identical

945
00:53:37,676 --> 00:53:41,196
Speaker 3: twin girls to a miscarriage via surrogacy. So it's our

946
00:53:42,396 --> 00:53:47,756
Speaker 3: third pregnancy loss, and it happened recently. It happened like

947
00:53:47,956 --> 00:53:50,796
Speaker 3: two months ago. It happened in September, and I was

948
00:53:51,076 --> 00:53:58,596
Speaker 3: so overwhelmed again, and I started feeling those things like well,

949
00:53:58,596 --> 00:54:02,756
Speaker 3: I haven't gone through this before, you know. And then

950
00:54:02,796 --> 00:54:07,036
Speaker 3: I called it my producer and I said, I need

951
00:54:07,036 --> 00:54:09,676
Speaker 3: this show right now, like I need a slight change

952
00:54:09,676 --> 00:54:12,436
Speaker 3: of plans for me right now. And so he turned

953
00:54:12,436 --> 00:54:14,516
Speaker 3: on the mic, and two days later he interviewed me

954
00:54:14,596 --> 00:54:17,716
Speaker 3: about my change story, and I shared that with everyone,

955
00:54:17,796 --> 00:54:20,076
Speaker 3: and I processed out loud. I did the thing that

956
00:54:20,116 --> 00:54:22,276
Speaker 3: I'd asked my guests to do so many times with me,

957
00:54:22,436 --> 00:54:25,476
Speaker 3: to be raw and vulnerable and to process their own

958
00:54:25,556 --> 00:54:28,716
Speaker 3: change experiences out loud, but I had never done myself.

959
00:54:29,316 --> 00:54:31,716
Speaker 3: And as I was doing that exercise, I was realizing

960
00:54:33,236 --> 00:54:36,836
Speaker 3: I have learned so much about the psychology of change

961
00:54:36,876 --> 00:54:40,316
Speaker 3: from people who have gone through wildly different experiences from

962
00:54:40,356 --> 00:54:44,036
Speaker 3: my own than I'm using right now. And one of

963
00:54:44,076 --> 00:54:47,356
Speaker 3: those had come from a close friend of mine, Michael Lewis.

964
00:54:47,996 --> 00:54:51,636
Speaker 3: He's obviously a extremely famous author and podcaster. He has

965
00:54:51,636 --> 00:54:54,076
Speaker 3: a heart of gold, He's an incredible human being, and

966
00:54:55,396 --> 00:54:59,796
Speaker 3: the Lewis family tragically lost their daughter. Michael lost his

967
00:54:59,916 --> 00:55:02,796
Speaker 3: nineteen year old daughter in a car crash earlier this year,

968
00:55:04,236 --> 00:55:07,236
Speaker 3: and Michael and I talk off and but when this happened,

969
00:55:07,796 --> 00:55:11,796
Speaker 3: we were talking about grief and he was telling me, Maya,

970
00:55:12,236 --> 00:55:16,796
Speaker 3: no one knows sit about grief. Everyone's telling me, you know,

971
00:55:16,796 --> 00:55:19,356
Speaker 3: I was visiting his house shortly after the passing of

972
00:55:19,356 --> 00:55:23,036
Speaker 3: his daughter. Everyone's telling me how to feel and what

973
00:55:23,236 --> 00:55:25,676
Speaker 3: to read and which therapist to see. And then I

974
00:55:25,716 --> 00:55:30,076
Speaker 3: should journal this and I should journal. No, that shit's

975
00:55:30,076 --> 00:55:31,676
Speaker 3: not working for me. I need to figure out the

976
00:55:31,716 --> 00:55:35,036
Speaker 3: Michael Lewis plan. And he figured out his own plan.

977
00:55:35,636 --> 00:55:37,796
Speaker 3: He figured out what brings him joy, he figured out

978
00:55:37,796 --> 00:55:40,836
Speaker 3: what brings him healing, and he structured his own plan

979
00:55:40,876 --> 00:55:43,116
Speaker 3: because he was realizing that a one size fits model

980
00:55:43,156 --> 00:55:45,876
Speaker 3: does not work. And so Renee, when I was going

981
00:55:45,916 --> 00:55:49,476
Speaker 3: through this traumatic experience of my own, I called upon

982
00:55:49,556 --> 00:55:52,636
Speaker 3: that wisdom. I said, I have to create a Maya plan.

983
00:55:53,476 --> 00:55:56,996
Speaker 3: What does healing look like for me specifically? And it

984
00:55:57,036 --> 00:56:01,516
Speaker 3: turned out healing for me looked like trying to turn

985
00:56:02,556 --> 00:56:06,076
Speaker 3: my pain into something good, and that meant sharing my

986
00:56:06,196 --> 00:56:11,956
Speaker 3: experience with all my listeners so that the person out

987
00:56:11,956 --> 00:56:14,716
Speaker 3: there who has felt stigma around a miscarriage, the person

988
00:56:14,716 --> 00:56:19,036
Speaker 3: out there who has felt the pain of loss, can

989
00:56:19,036 --> 00:56:23,516
Speaker 3: feel less alone. And so I just feel like we

990
00:56:23,596 --> 00:56:25,196
Speaker 3: have so much to learn from one another.

991
00:56:26,236 --> 00:56:30,756
Speaker 2: It is a brave and breathtaking episode.

992
00:56:31,876 --> 00:56:33,636
Speaker 1: Oh wow, I didn't know you'd heard it. Thank you

993
00:56:33,676 --> 00:56:33,876
Speaker 1: for that.

994
00:56:34,756 --> 00:56:38,196
Speaker 2: First of all, let me say I'm incredibly deeply sorry

995
00:56:38,196 --> 00:56:43,476
Speaker 2: for your miscarriages. That is a huge loss. Was it

996
00:56:43,516 --> 00:56:45,716
Speaker 2: hard to be vulnerable and share on the kind of

997
00:56:45,716 --> 00:56:48,316
Speaker 2: the quote unquote other side of the microphone.

998
00:56:48,436 --> 00:56:49,396
Speaker 1: It was, and it wasn't.

999
00:56:49,796 --> 00:56:54,516
Speaker 3: In many ways, I saw this sharing as almost the

1000
00:56:54,596 --> 00:56:58,636
Speaker 3: love letter to my surrogate Haley. We can't work with

1001
00:56:58,636 --> 00:57:04,556
Speaker 3: her anymore, as I describe in my interview, but sometimes

1002
00:57:04,836 --> 00:57:07,156
Speaker 3: surrogates can get kind of relegated to the footnotes of

1003
00:57:07,196 --> 00:57:11,316
Speaker 3: these sorts of experiences. Creating families is complicated and hard,

1004
00:57:11,356 --> 00:57:15,876
Speaker 3: and sometimes you have the gift of having an amazingly generous,

1005
00:57:16,636 --> 00:57:19,036
Speaker 3: magnificent woman enter your life who tries to help you

1006
00:57:19,196 --> 00:57:23,676
Speaker 3: make your dreams happen. And so much of this episode

1007
00:57:23,716 --> 00:57:26,076
Speaker 3: is about her and how much I love and admire her,

1008
00:57:26,116 --> 00:57:29,556
Speaker 3: And so that part felt easy, That part felt joyful.

1009
00:57:29,636 --> 00:57:32,876
Speaker 3: I was sharing with the world about this special person

1010
00:57:32,996 --> 00:57:35,316
Speaker 3: that I'd gotten to know in this extremely intimate way,

1011
00:57:35,716 --> 00:57:38,436
Speaker 3: and I wanted everyone to recognize how wonderful she was.

1012
00:57:40,156 --> 00:57:42,836
Speaker 3: But the parts that were really hard, where that I

1013
00:57:42,916 --> 00:57:47,796
Speaker 3: was processing several grief layers all at once, and I

1014
00:57:47,956 --> 00:57:51,196
Speaker 3: myself didn't know what my conclusions were. It's scary to

1015
00:57:51,236 --> 00:57:53,236
Speaker 3: go into an interview when you don't know what You

1016
00:57:53,356 --> 00:57:56,156
Speaker 3: don't even know, you know. It's like when I go

1017
00:57:56,196 --> 00:57:58,796
Speaker 3: to interview my guests, I do my homework Renee, you know,

1018
00:57:58,876 --> 00:58:02,316
Speaker 3: I spend hours practicing the violin. I'm spreading hours studying

1019
00:58:02,316 --> 00:58:04,276
Speaker 3: my guests, listening to every interview they'd done. Like I

1020
00:58:04,356 --> 00:58:08,516
Speaker 3: come prepared, and I did not come to this interview prepared.

1021
00:58:08,636 --> 00:58:12,796
Speaker 3: I came a total mess. And one thing that was

1022
00:58:12,836 --> 00:58:17,956
Speaker 3: beautiful about it is I had this really important insight

1023
00:58:18,036 --> 00:58:20,756
Speaker 3: in real time that I love to share right now

1024
00:58:20,796 --> 00:58:23,316
Speaker 3: because I do hope it can help others, which is

1025
00:58:24,596 --> 00:58:28,396
Speaker 3: I think we tend to see life as an outcome

1026
00:58:28,476 --> 00:58:29,716
Speaker 3: oriented process.

1027
00:58:30,316 --> 00:58:31,396
Speaker 1: I do. I have.

1028
00:58:31,756 --> 00:58:35,076
Speaker 3: I often see things as achieve the goal. And to

1029
00:58:35,116 --> 00:58:38,836
Speaker 3: summarize my experience for listeners, we had a surrogate, Haley,

1030
00:58:38,876 --> 00:58:41,316
Speaker 3: and she was pregnant with our baby and miscarried, and

1031
00:58:41,316 --> 00:58:44,676
Speaker 3: then she was pregnant with our identical twins and miscarried,

1032
00:58:44,716 --> 00:58:48,036
Speaker 3: and so we had these losses and we did not

1033
00:58:48,276 --> 00:58:51,796
Speaker 3: get the outcome that the three of us wanted in

1034
00:58:51,836 --> 00:58:56,916
Speaker 3: this relationship, and I think the insight that I gleaned

1035
00:58:57,036 --> 00:59:02,236
Speaker 3: was that life is about more than just achieving outcomes.

1036
00:59:03,316 --> 00:59:10,156
Speaker 3: It's about creating space that invites these unexpected gifts into

1037
00:59:10,196 --> 00:59:14,436
Speaker 3: your life. And that gift for me was Haley. And

1038
00:59:14,516 --> 00:59:16,516
Speaker 3: all I needed to do is just make room for

1039
00:59:16,596 --> 00:59:20,436
Speaker 3: that and to see that in and of itself is value.

1040
00:59:20,676 --> 00:59:23,516
Speaker 3: You can not get the end goal, but you can

1041
00:59:23,556 --> 00:59:27,956
Speaker 3: get so much love and growth in enrichment and humanity

1042
00:59:28,116 --> 00:59:34,316
Speaker 3: from an experience, and that is enough. And I just

1043
00:59:34,356 --> 00:59:37,636
Speaker 3: want people to hear that like that, that is enough.

1044
00:59:37,796 --> 00:59:42,716
Speaker 3: That can be the finish line sometimes and it's really

1045
00:59:42,796 --> 00:59:45,076
Speaker 3: hard for me to say that sort of thing. I'm

1046
00:59:45,076 --> 00:59:48,156
Speaker 3: that type a personality, you know, As I mentioned, I'm impatient.

1047
00:59:48,156 --> 00:59:51,676
Speaker 3: I want the thing to have happened. But this experience

1048
00:59:51,756 --> 00:59:55,636
Speaker 3: taught me that, like that beautiful relationship that my husband

1049
00:59:55,676 --> 00:59:58,796
Speaker 3: and I formed with Haley was enough, and it was beautiful.

1050
00:59:59,516 --> 01:00:01,276
Speaker 3: It was something that I will cherish forever.

1051
01:00:03,596 --> 01:00:09,556
Speaker 2: The Maya Plan for grief, it sounds like, is a

1052
01:00:09,556 --> 01:00:10,396
Speaker 2: love base plan.

1053
01:00:12,036 --> 01:00:14,116
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess that's right. Never thought about it like.

1054
01:00:14,076 --> 01:00:17,516
Speaker 2: That, And I don't think there's anything more different than

1055
01:00:17,556 --> 01:00:19,716
Speaker 2: an outcome based plan than a love base plan.

1056
01:00:20,396 --> 01:00:22,076
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the and and the love.

1057
01:00:23,396 --> 01:00:26,156
Speaker 3: I was, of course scared like anyone when this was

1058
01:00:26,196 --> 01:00:27,956
Speaker 3: going out into the world. I didn't know how people

1059
01:00:27,956 --> 01:00:36,036
Speaker 3: would respond. And Brenee, I have been overwhelmed by the

1060
01:00:36,156 --> 01:00:40,236
Speaker 3: outpouring of love and care and virtual hugs from all

1061
01:00:40,276 --> 01:00:44,956
Speaker 3: over the world and people sharing their experiences of loss

1062
01:00:44,956 --> 01:00:48,556
Speaker 3: with me. And it's a loss, a wide ranging loss,

1063
01:00:48,596 --> 01:00:51,516
Speaker 3: you know, to our earlier point that our circumstances can

1064
01:00:51,556 --> 01:00:53,996
Speaker 3: be very different, but the same psychology might come into play.

1065
01:00:54,116 --> 01:00:58,036
Speaker 3: And that is felt like a true silver lining in

1066
01:00:58,076 --> 01:01:00,596
Speaker 3: all this, to feel in some way like I have

1067
01:01:00,676 --> 01:01:05,196
Speaker 3: helped people heal. So many people heal, it's been all

1068
01:01:05,276 --> 01:01:09,356
Speaker 3: came Yeah what came back? Wow, well said what came

1069
01:01:09,396 --> 01:01:12,596
Speaker 3: back with love? And I guess I just didn't know

1070
01:01:12,636 --> 01:01:15,076
Speaker 3: that I could expect that. And I'm so glad that

1071
01:01:15,076 --> 01:01:15,956
Speaker 3: that's what came back.

1072
01:01:16,996 --> 01:01:20,796
Speaker 2: There's so much wisdom that you've shared with us today.

1073
01:01:21,276 --> 01:01:25,116
Speaker 2: It's really interesting. It's I bet you were really good

1074
01:01:25,236 --> 01:01:28,116
Speaker 2: in that lab at Stanford, but I'm so glad you're

1075
01:01:28,116 --> 01:01:32,836
Speaker 2: not there anymore, you know what I mean? Yeah, I mean,

1076
01:01:32,956 --> 01:01:36,876
Speaker 2: I just there's got to be something core to you

1077
01:01:38,636 --> 01:01:43,276
Speaker 2: that's about connection and love between people. There's just got

1078
01:01:43,316 --> 01:01:45,676
Speaker 2: to be something there because that's what radiates. I guess,

1079
01:01:47,276 --> 01:01:49,156
Speaker 2: you know, maybe that's that thing that you were describing

1080
01:01:49,156 --> 01:01:50,316
Speaker 2: that Ishtuk Pehlman saw.

1081
01:01:52,956 --> 01:01:55,796
Speaker 1: I love that. I think that's so true. I think

1082
01:01:55,796 --> 01:01:57,196
Speaker 1: that's so true.

1083
01:01:57,516 --> 01:02:00,476
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm the one who's like writing these a

1084
01:02:00,516 --> 01:02:02,316
Speaker 3: fusive love letters to the people that I love in

1085
01:02:02,356 --> 01:02:03,276
Speaker 3: my life all the time.

1086
01:02:03,756 --> 01:02:04,516
Speaker 1: They don't get back.

1087
01:02:05,236 --> 01:02:06,196
Speaker 2: That doesn't surprise me.

1088
01:02:07,356 --> 01:02:09,956
Speaker 3: They don't hear it enough. I can't hear it enough

1089
01:02:10,396 --> 01:02:13,636
Speaker 3: because I do feel that effusiveness. I've always wanted to

1090
01:02:13,636 --> 01:02:15,916
Speaker 3: share that. So I think you nailed it.

1091
01:02:16,356 --> 01:02:17,836
Speaker 2: Are you ready for some rapid fires?

1092
01:02:18,316 --> 01:02:20,356
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, okay, let me pivot.

1093
01:02:22,636 --> 01:02:27,596
Speaker 2: Well, bring your love with you's freeing love? Yeah, fill

1094
01:02:27,596 --> 01:02:29,476
Speaker 2: in the blank for me. Vulnerability is.

1095
01:02:31,956 --> 01:02:32,156
Speaker 1: Okay.

1096
01:02:32,196 --> 01:02:33,876
Speaker 3: I'm saying this from the vantage point of being a

1097
01:02:33,876 --> 01:02:37,756
Speaker 3: woman in particular, but being willing to admit when you're

1098
01:02:37,796 --> 01:02:38,636
Speaker 3: good at something.

1099
01:02:39,716 --> 01:02:47,876
Speaker 2: Hmmm? Does that for everything? Yes? It does. I don't

1100
01:02:47,916 --> 01:02:51,916
Speaker 2: like it, but it's true. Okay. What's one thing that

1101
01:02:51,956 --> 01:02:53,476
Speaker 2: people often get wrong about you?

1102
01:02:55,516 --> 01:02:56,476
Speaker 1: M Okay?

1103
01:02:58,076 --> 01:03:00,436
Speaker 3: So I'm a petite woman, like five to four in

1104
01:03:00,516 --> 01:03:04,036
Speaker 3: a good day, five three and three quarters. I mean

1105
01:03:04,076 --> 01:03:07,036
Speaker 3: you probably talking an abundance of enthusiasm.

1106
01:03:07,076 --> 01:03:07,916
Speaker 1: Like I tend to have a.

1107
01:03:07,956 --> 01:03:12,996
Speaker 3: Very cheerful, exuberant, smiley disposition, and I love that about myself,

1108
01:03:13,036 --> 01:03:15,316
Speaker 3: but I also think it can lead people to underestimate

1109
01:03:16,196 --> 01:03:18,676
Speaker 3: just how much I'm willing to fight for things and

1110
01:03:18,676 --> 01:03:21,796
Speaker 3: how much I'm willing to stand up for other people

1111
01:03:22,236 --> 01:03:25,076
Speaker 3: and to stand up for myself, you know, like I

1112
01:03:25,156 --> 01:03:28,916
Speaker 3: may be small, but I'm fierce inside for Nay, oh.

1113
01:03:28,956 --> 01:03:32,676
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I yeah, yeah, no, I'm clear on that.

1114
01:03:32,876 --> 01:03:33,076
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1115
01:03:33,076 --> 01:03:37,956
Speaker 3: There are many times in government where these older dudes

1116
01:03:38,076 --> 01:03:40,796
Speaker 3: would kind of be like, oh, Maya the bright eyed,

1117
01:03:40,876 --> 01:03:45,196
Speaker 3: bushy tailed, energetic woman or girl or whatever they use,

1118
01:03:45,236 --> 01:03:47,836
Speaker 3: and you know it, say, you know, I could tell

1119
01:03:47,836 --> 01:03:49,676
Speaker 3: she has big dreams, but I'm not really sure if

1120
01:03:49,716 --> 01:03:51,356
Speaker 3: she can really make it happen, you know that sort

1121
01:03:51,396 --> 01:03:55,276
Speaker 3: of thing. And I have resisted dampening the enthusiasm. I

1122
01:03:55,356 --> 01:03:57,116
Speaker 3: won't do it because that is so core to who

1123
01:03:57,196 --> 01:04:01,636
Speaker 3: I am. So instead I listen, but then I really

1124
01:04:01,636 --> 01:04:05,316
Speaker 3: show it to them. On the other side, I'm like, Nope, actually,

1125
01:04:05,316 --> 01:04:07,356
Speaker 3: you can't talk to me like that. Because bullied as

1126
01:04:07,396 --> 01:04:09,596
Speaker 3: a kid, not willing to be bullied as an adult.

1127
01:04:10,276 --> 01:04:14,316
Speaker 2: My problem. I would love to observe this just once

1128
01:04:15,316 --> 01:04:19,996
Speaker 2: with an old white guy, especially just yeah, Okay, what

1129
01:04:20,116 --> 01:04:22,596
Speaker 2: is one piece of leadership advice that you've been given

1130
01:04:22,676 --> 01:04:24,876
Speaker 2: that so remarkable you need to share it with us?

1131
01:04:25,476 --> 01:04:27,436
Speaker 2: Are so shitty you need to warn us?

1132
01:04:29,396 --> 01:04:29,596
Speaker 1: Oh?

1133
01:04:29,636 --> 01:04:32,436
Speaker 3: I love these questions. Okay, all right, this one's coming

1134
01:04:32,436 --> 01:04:37,516
Speaker 3: from my White House boss. Uh, always think like an entrepreneur,

1135
01:04:37,876 --> 01:04:41,676
Speaker 3: no matter what circumstance you're in. So quick aside, when

1136
01:04:41,676 --> 01:04:43,796
Speaker 3: I was in the White House, so you know, the

1137
01:04:43,916 --> 01:04:46,676
Speaker 3: challenge just didn't stop just in getting the job. I'd

1138
01:04:46,676 --> 01:04:48,356
Speaker 3: made it my goal to build out a whole team

1139
01:04:48,396 --> 01:04:51,196
Speaker 3: of behavioral scientists, and I didn't have a mandate and

1140
01:04:51,236 --> 01:04:52,716
Speaker 3: I didn't have a budget to do so. So I

1141
01:04:52,716 --> 01:04:54,716
Speaker 3: couldn't just be like Obama says we should do this.

1142
01:04:54,796 --> 01:04:57,236
Speaker 3: It was Maya says we should do this. And it

1143
01:04:57,276 --> 01:04:59,916
Speaker 3: was a really hard, scrappy process moving forward where I

1144
01:04:59,916 --> 01:05:02,716
Speaker 3: felt like I was building a startup in my parents' basement.

1145
01:05:03,876 --> 01:05:06,956
Speaker 3: But I really tried He called this policy entrepreneur, So

1146
01:05:07,036 --> 01:05:10,796
Speaker 3: I really tried to see this job as though I

1147
01:05:10,876 --> 01:05:13,156
Speaker 3: was creating my own company within the federal government, and

1148
01:05:13,196 --> 01:05:15,556
Speaker 3: I was trying to like do the equivalent of fundraising

1149
01:05:15,596 --> 01:05:17,796
Speaker 3: and getting quick wins here and there, and it was

1150
01:05:17,836 --> 01:05:20,116
Speaker 3: a crucial change in mindset.

1151
01:05:21,196 --> 01:05:27,236
Speaker 2: Yeah, scrappy, hungry. Yeah, I think that's great advice. What

1152
01:05:27,356 --> 01:05:30,436
Speaker 2: is the hard lesson for you? That the universe just

1153
01:05:30,516 --> 01:05:32,756
Speaker 2: keeps putting in front of you over and over and

1154
01:05:32,796 --> 01:05:35,236
Speaker 2: you just have to keep unlearning and relearning.

1155
01:05:36,236 --> 01:05:39,436
Speaker 3: Oh wow, okay, yeah, okay, I've got one. This is

1156
01:05:39,916 --> 01:05:45,316
Speaker 3: also recently relevant. So I have like intermittent I have

1157
01:05:45,396 --> 01:05:50,036
Speaker 3: intermittent vocal strain issues, and it apparently emerges from a

1158
01:05:50,076 --> 01:05:52,716
Speaker 3: condition in which I get so excited when I talk

1159
01:05:52,996 --> 01:05:55,436
Speaker 3: I forget to breathe. This is literally what a doctor

1160
01:05:55,476 --> 01:05:58,796
Speaker 3: told me once. And so what that means is that

1161
01:05:58,876 --> 01:06:02,276
Speaker 3: I can very easily strain my vocal cords. And there

1162
01:06:02,316 --> 01:06:05,316
Speaker 3: have been long stretches of time where I have had

1163
01:06:05,356 --> 01:06:08,516
Speaker 3: to be on complete vocal rest. I'm talking like Adell

1164
01:06:08,636 --> 01:06:13,636
Speaker 3: Celendi style vocal rest. Geez hard, It's very hard. I

1165
01:06:13,676 --> 01:06:17,276
Speaker 3: felt like this news and meditative maya came out. But

1166
01:06:17,356 --> 01:06:21,556
Speaker 3: what I learned from that experience was so valuable, Renee,

1167
01:06:21,636 --> 01:06:26,276
Speaker 3: because you really do learn how to be a good

1168
01:06:26,356 --> 01:06:32,636
Speaker 3: listener in those moments, and because there are moments there

1169
01:06:32,676 --> 01:06:34,316
Speaker 3: were times where I could talk a little bit but

1170
01:06:34,396 --> 01:06:36,956
Speaker 3: not a lot. For the first time ever, you could

1171
01:06:36,956 --> 01:06:39,596
Speaker 3: tell them a total chatterbox, right. I had to be

1172
01:06:39,716 --> 01:06:44,436
Speaker 3: so judicious about what it is that I chose to

1173
01:06:44,556 --> 01:06:51,196
Speaker 3: say in meetings, in conversations, and it made me, I think,

1174
01:06:51,396 --> 01:06:53,876
Speaker 3: just a better human being because I tend to talk

1175
01:06:53,876 --> 01:06:55,796
Speaker 3: in this kind of unfiltered way a lot. I just

1176
01:06:55,836 --> 01:07:00,796
Speaker 3: say everything that I'm thinking, and it was just, Yeah,

1177
01:07:00,876 --> 01:07:03,076
Speaker 3: it was just a very different experience for me to

1178
01:07:03,116 --> 01:07:06,756
Speaker 3: have to really be thought like, is this worth saying?

1179
01:07:07,916 --> 01:07:10,436
Speaker 3: That's a question we should all ask ourselves as leaders.

1180
01:07:10,796 --> 01:07:11,516
Speaker 1: I can't tell me.

1181
01:07:12,276 --> 01:07:14,716
Speaker 3: It's like I can say it. I mean, I lead

1182
01:07:14,756 --> 01:07:17,756
Speaker 3: this team. I can technically say it, But is it

1183
01:07:17,836 --> 01:07:22,276
Speaker 3: worth saying? I think that's such an important question that

1184
01:07:22,316 --> 01:07:23,356
Speaker 3: we should ask ourselves.

1185
01:07:24,796 --> 01:07:28,236
Speaker 2: WHOA, that's a good one. All right, what's one thing

1186
01:07:28,276 --> 01:07:29,956
Speaker 2: you're really excited about right now?

1187
01:07:31,276 --> 01:07:31,556
Speaker 1: Okay?

1188
01:07:31,596 --> 01:07:34,676
Speaker 3: Well, I'm all about the small stuff. So I'm a

1189
01:07:34,756 --> 01:07:39,996
Speaker 3: vegetarian and this local ramin place that my husband loves

1190
01:07:40,676 --> 01:07:44,796
Speaker 3: now has a vegetarian faced broth and it will knock

1191
01:07:45,076 --> 01:07:48,876
Speaker 3: your socks off. In fact, my meat eating husband, well,

1192
01:07:48,916 --> 01:07:50,596
Speaker 3: he's kind of trying to be vegetarian, but he's like

1193
01:07:50,596 --> 01:07:54,396
Speaker 3: a pseudo vegetarian. He opts for the vegetarian version over

1194
01:07:54,396 --> 01:07:55,756
Speaker 3: the meat version. That's how good it is.

1195
01:07:56,996 --> 01:07:57,796
Speaker 2: That's impressive.

1196
01:07:58,116 --> 01:08:00,396
Speaker 3: Like I love just I mean, you can tell from

1197
01:08:00,396 --> 01:08:02,716
Speaker 3: my answer, like I love food. I feel like it

1198
01:08:02,756 --> 01:08:04,636
Speaker 3: was in my it was implicit in my marriage contract

1199
01:08:04,676 --> 01:08:06,236
Speaker 3: that like I loved food and then I love my

1200
01:08:06,556 --> 01:08:11,396
Speaker 3: husband second. So that's a well greed upon understanding of

1201
01:08:11,476 --> 01:08:11,836
Speaker 3: their home.

1202
01:08:11,996 --> 01:08:12,236
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1203
01:08:12,276 --> 01:08:16,236
Speaker 2: Absolutely, what's one thing you're deeply grateful for right now?

1204
01:08:18,116 --> 01:08:18,396
Speaker 1: Oh?

1205
01:08:18,436 --> 01:08:22,276
Speaker 3: Wow, you know, I'm honestly really grateful for a slight

1206
01:08:22,356 --> 01:08:26,076
Speaker 3: change of plans that I've created because it was there

1207
01:08:26,116 --> 01:08:28,836
Speaker 3: for me when I needed it most, Like I need

1208
01:08:28,836 --> 01:08:30,956
Speaker 3: it as much as it needs me, if that makes sense.

1209
01:08:31,116 --> 01:08:34,836
Speaker 3: And yes, it is such a gift to have this

1210
01:08:35,236 --> 01:08:39,396
Speaker 3: artistic endeavor that fuels you on an emotional level. It's

1211
01:08:39,396 --> 01:08:41,756
Speaker 3: like feeding all the parts of my brain from various

1212
01:08:41,796 --> 01:08:45,476
Speaker 3: parts of my life. It's like there's the musical side

1213
01:08:45,476 --> 01:08:48,996
Speaker 3: of my brain that's like working on the soundtrack and

1214
01:08:49,036 --> 01:08:51,276
Speaker 3: actually recorded and I've picked up my violin for the

1215
01:08:51,276 --> 01:08:53,596
Speaker 3: first time and forever recently, I actually recorded music for

1216
01:08:53,636 --> 01:08:57,116
Speaker 3: the soundtrack, and just like the artistic qualities of piecing

1217
01:08:57,116 --> 01:08:59,796
Speaker 3: together an episode. And then there's the cognitive science part

1218
01:08:59,796 --> 01:09:02,156
Speaker 3: of my brain that's weighing in with questions and insights

1219
01:09:02,196 --> 01:09:07,036
Speaker 3: and everything. And then there's the the human emotion connection part,

1220
01:09:07,356 --> 01:09:09,956
Speaker 3: which is just like through the roof because I get

1221
01:09:09,956 --> 01:09:12,956
Speaker 3: to meet these incredible people and so I just it's

1222
01:09:12,996 --> 01:09:16,636
Speaker 3: hard for me to remember something that I love as

1223
01:09:16,756 --> 01:09:19,436
Speaker 3: much as this thing. I would wake up as the

1224
01:09:19,916 --> 01:09:22,116
Speaker 3: thirty five year old that I am at four thirty

1225
01:09:22,116 --> 01:09:25,316
Speaker 3: in the morning on Saturdays for a slight change of plans,

1226
01:09:25,356 --> 01:09:27,196
Speaker 3: and it's been a while since I felt that way.

1227
01:09:27,516 --> 01:09:29,356
Speaker 3: It's been Yeah, it's been an utter joy.

1228
01:09:30,596 --> 01:09:32,396
Speaker 2: I love how you light up when you talk about it.

1229
01:09:32,436 --> 01:09:37,676
Speaker 2: That's that's that's what we need, all right. We make

1230
01:09:37,796 --> 01:09:40,156
Speaker 2: mini mixtapes for all of our guests, and we ask

1231
01:09:40,236 --> 01:09:42,916
Speaker 2: you for five songs you can't live without. This is

1232
01:09:42,956 --> 01:09:46,596
Speaker 2: what you gave us. The Leaves that are Green My

1233
01:09:46,716 --> 01:09:51,476
Speaker 2: Simon and Garfunkle, Blinding Lights by Weekend, Forever and Always,

1234
01:09:51,476 --> 01:09:56,916
Speaker 2: Shania Twain, slow Burn, Casey Musgraves, and Halo by Beyonce.

1235
01:09:57,916 --> 01:10:01,356
Speaker 2: In one sentence, what does this mini mixtape say about you?

1236
01:10:01,436 --> 01:10:11,676
Speaker 3: Maya one sentence, mm hmm, I'm all about a good hook, says.

1237
01:10:11,436 --> 01:10:18,636
Speaker 2: The cognitive behavoralist that you gotta tell me that you

1238
01:10:18,676 --> 01:10:20,116
Speaker 2: thought of this before. Did you come up with this

1239
01:10:20,236 --> 01:10:21,476
Speaker 2: line right now, sitting right here?

1240
01:10:21,596 --> 01:10:24,916
Speaker 1: I did. I didn't know this was a question. I

1241
01:10:24,956 --> 01:10:26,596
Speaker 1: just thought you were gonna load up the mixtape.

1242
01:10:27,516 --> 01:10:31,516
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that was the best answer. This has

1243
01:10:31,556 --> 01:10:33,676
Speaker 2: been such a just a joy. Thank you so much

1244
01:10:33,716 --> 01:10:34,996
Speaker 2: for joining us on Dear to Luis Well.

1245
01:10:34,996 --> 01:10:36,676
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me, Brene. I love it when an

1246
01:10:36,716 --> 01:10:39,076
Speaker 3: interview is just a conversation, and that's what this felt like.

1247
01:10:39,156 --> 01:10:40,916
Speaker 3: So thank you so much for having me.

1248
01:10:41,316 --> 01:10:45,476
Speaker 2: Yeah, you really radiate love and joy and it's so powerful.

1249
01:10:45,596 --> 01:10:48,236
Speaker 3: Thank you for saying that. That's the highest compliment that

1250
01:10:48,276 --> 01:10:51,396
Speaker 3: I can receive. So if I'm giving that off, awesome.

1251
01:10:51,556 --> 01:10:54,716
Speaker 2: You're giving it off and I'm receiving you can see

1252
01:10:54,716 --> 01:11:06,436
Speaker 2: my migdala anytime. Let me just say that I hope

1253
01:11:06,516 --> 01:11:10,796
Speaker 2: y'all enjoyed this conversation as much as I did, and again,

1254
01:11:10,836 --> 01:11:12,356
Speaker 2: thank you so much for being a part of it.

1255
01:11:12,916 --> 01:11:15,516
Speaker 2: You can find Maya's podcast, A Slight Change of Plans

1256
01:11:15,556 --> 01:11:18,516
Speaker 2: wherever you like to listen to podcasts. We'll also post

1257
01:11:18,556 --> 01:11:20,316
Speaker 2: a link to it on the dare to lead episode

1258
01:11:20,316 --> 01:11:23,516
Speaker 2: page on Brene Brown dot com and if you haven't visited,

1259
01:11:23,556 --> 01:11:25,756
Speaker 2: we have a brand new Brene Brown dot com. H

1260
01:11:26,316 --> 01:11:29,196
Speaker 2: It is so beautiful and so many people worked their

1261
01:11:29,236 --> 01:11:32,356
Speaker 2: asses off. I can't even tell you months and months

1262
01:11:32,356 --> 01:11:36,076
Speaker 2: and months of sprints and designs and redesigns and testing

1263
01:11:36,236 --> 01:11:38,956
Speaker 2: and it's just it's gorgeous, and I hope y'all love

1264
01:11:38,996 --> 01:11:41,876
Speaker 2: it as much as I do. You can find Maya

1265
01:11:42,076 --> 01:11:45,076
Speaker 2: at m A y A s h A n k

1266
01:11:45,556 --> 01:11:48,796
Speaker 2: R dot com. She's also on Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn,

1267
01:11:49,356 --> 01:11:51,676
Speaker 2: and we'll have all those links on the episode page

1268
01:11:51,716 --> 01:11:57,076
Speaker 2: as well. Really appreciate you being here very much. Appreciate

1269
01:11:57,116 --> 01:12:00,276
Speaker 2: you being a part of Dare to Lead. I just

1270
01:12:00,996 --> 01:12:03,556
Speaker 2: learning by ourselves is not as effective as learning together

1271
01:12:03,596 --> 01:12:06,676
Speaker 2: and having conversations about what we're trying to learn and

1272
01:12:06,836 --> 01:12:10,916
Speaker 2: learn and relearn. Thank you, stay awkward, brave and kind, y'all.

1273
01:12:17,476 --> 01:12:20,076
Speaker 2: Dear to Lead is produced by Brene Brown Education and

1274
01:12:20,156 --> 01:12:24,276
Speaker 2: Research Group. Music is by the Sufferers. Get new episodes

1275
01:12:24,316 --> 01:12:26,516
Speaker 2: as soon as they're published by following Dear to Lead

1276
01:12:26,556 --> 01:12:29,756
Speaker 2: on your favorite podcast app. We are part of the

1277
01:12:29,836 --> 01:12:34,636
Speaker 2: Voxmedia podcast Network. Discover more award winning shows at podcasts

1278
01:12:35,076 --> 01:12:37,196
Speaker 2: dot voxmedia dot com.

1279
01:12:37,356 --> 01:12:39,276
Speaker 1: I just got to get out most days.

1280
01:12:39,316 --> 01:12:43,796
Speaker 2: You see, I like it's good for me. Well we

1281
01:12:44,316 --> 01:12:46,636
Speaker 2: go ahead, take me to the towns.

1282
01:12:47,476 --> 01:12:49,356
Speaker 1: I just got to get out those days.

1283
01:12:49,396 --> 01:12:55,356
Speaker 2: You see this work for me