WEBVTT - Lethal Injection 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.440 If you will place your left hand on the Bible 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:08.960 and raise your right hand, and please repeat after me, 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:13.440 and I do solemnly swear, then titled action find the 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:16.840 defendant guilty of the time. It makes no sense, it 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:20.200 doesn't fit. If it doesn't fit, you must a quit. 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:23.239 We all took the same of office. We're all bound 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:26.480 by that common commitment to support and defend the Constitution, 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:29.360 to bear true faith and allegiance to the same that 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:32.199 you faithfully discharge the duties of our office. Do you 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:35.480 solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:37.640 to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:41.640 nothing but the truth. From Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio, 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:51.320 this is sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. Let me 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:53.599 just explain that there is this thing that we call 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:59.560 lethal injection. Lethal injection is a method of executing prisoners 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:05.759 here in America. It basically involves the collecting and injecting 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:09.840 of certain kinds of chemicals through an intravenous that would 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:13.120 circulate in the body of a prisoner and would cause 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:18.680 them to die. And lethal injection uses things that in 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:21.679 my hand would be a medicine, but in the hand 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:33.440 of the state it becomes a poison. That was Dr Zivitt, 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:37.319 an anastasiologist here in Atlanta, Georgia. We sat down with 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:40.440 doctor Zivitt and his colleague, Dr Edgar to get their 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:44.440 medical opinions on lethal injection, how it works, and whether 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:47.720 or not in their professional medical opinions it falls under 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:53.760 the category of cruel and unusual punishment. My name is 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:56.720 is Joel's Zivitt. I'm a physician and I'm on the 0:01:56.760 --> 0:02:03.240 faculty at every university. Traditionally, the mainstay of execution involved 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:05.840 a class of a drug called a barbiturate, of which 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:10.679 penta barbital is an example. It's an old drug. It 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:15.320 used to be an old sleeping pill. Pena barbital is 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:20.840 uncommonly used in hospitals, but periodically it's used. Certain states 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:24.280 have had difficulty obtaining pender barbital. Pender barbital is in 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:28.880 short supply, and also manufacturers vendors don't want it to 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:31.880 necessarily get into the hands of states that are going 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:35.760 to be using it for execution. Some states have sought 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:39.920 alternatives dependent barbital, and one of the alternatives dependent barbital 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:43.799 is the use of a drug called medazzy lamb, and 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:48.480 medaz lam is something called a benzo diazepine. You may 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:50.519 have heard of drugs like medas lam and the class 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:56.200 of medazzy lamb, for example, a drug called valium. It's 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:59.880 actually hard to kill people with medazzy lamb. It's not 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:03.720 made for that. It's made not to kill people. And again, 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:05.920 to be clear to none of this is the practice 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:10.200 of medicine, nor does medicine have any comment or assistance 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:14.760 in any of this. This is the state collecting, gathering 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:22.560 on its own, making investigations and making claims. States who 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:28.079 are needing to find chemicals for which to produce death 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:32.320 use medaz lam as a part of a three drug 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:38.440 or two drug combination to cause death. Pena barbatrol is used, 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:43.400 actually as the soul agent. Pena barbatol is used in 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:47.280 a large quantity here in Georgia. That's the that's the 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:51.760 chemical that's used, and by itself it can cause death. 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:56.680 Medazzy lamb by itself does not easily cause death, and 0:03:56.720 --> 0:04:01.000 so it's mixed with other chemicals. You usually a combination 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:05.320 of something called potassium chloride, which is intended to stop 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:10.640 the heart, and another drug called a paralytic paralyzing drug, 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:13.040 and what that drug does is when it's given, a 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:16.160 person will be motionless, they will not be able to move, 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:19.240 not be able to breathe, but inside they'll be very 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:24.080 much awake and could experience any kinds of feeling. When 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:27.520 you're given a paralyzing drug. If you're not given the antidote, 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:29.919 or if you're left in the presence of this drug, 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:34.920 you will die of asphyxiation. And there is some concern 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:40.960 that execution using medazzy lamb and paralyzing drug is really 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:48.039 death by asphyxiation. I'm trying to make a case that 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:51.760 pina barbital is a cruel form of death, and the 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:57.200 court is saying, show us the evidence. Maybe um two 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:00.240 years ago now, I think I was given a aisle 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:07.400 of autopsies, autopsies performed on executed prisoners here in Georgia. 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:10.159 When I look through the file, it struck me that 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:13.280 there was something unusual. It seemed to me that there 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:16.720 was some organ damage, specifically to the lungs, to the heart, 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:20.080 to the liver. None of this I had expected, and 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:22.839 so I began to do some investigations of what these 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:28.880 organ system failures might suggest, what we find in majority 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:32.800 of these these inmates or these prisoners, rather, are these 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:36.760 fluid filled in the lungs, And if you could imagine, 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:39.400 it's more akin to what you might find in the 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:43.080 circumstances when someone drowns to death. It also looks interesting 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:46.080 similar to when someone overdoses on heroin, and you could 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:54.680 ask yourself is that cruel? By way of legal background, 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:58.000 the eighth the Moment to the Constitution, provides protection against 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:01.080 cruel and unusual punishment at the hands of the government 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:04.920 in the context of criminal sentencing. When the founding fathers 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:07.599 were drafting the Constitution, they did not have to look 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:10.920 back very far at all to find instances of torture 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:14.760 and other criminal punishments that were certainly cruel, even if 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:19.159 not so unusual for their time. Thus, the eighth Amendment 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:22.640 is a direct protection against the kinds of punishment the 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:26.120 King and Crown used to dole out once upon a time. 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:30.640 The problem is, as capital punishment and prison conditions have 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:34.240 changed and evolved over time, the vague meaning of the 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.839 eighth Amendment is consistently challenged, as courts have had to 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:41.760 decide just what is and is not cruel and unusual punishment. 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:45.159 Like so many things in the Constitution, it is a 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:48.640 constantly changing legal standard that is open to debate and 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:53.479 interpretation as societal norms evolve. It should come as no 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:57.800 surprise that lethal injection and capital punishment is the major 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:01.400 leagues of criminal litigation when it comes to the rights 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:08.159 of the accused under the Eighth Amendment. This is Dr 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:11.600 Mark Edgar. He is a pathologist and associate professor of 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:17.640 Pathology and laboratory Science. So I spend my day mostly 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:22.360 looking at specimens removed from the operating room from patients 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:25.560 who are having surgery for cancer or a variety of 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:30.400 other non cancerous things. I teach residents here. I also 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:34.440 do autopsies. When there are autopsies to be done, I 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:41.480 teach medical students, and I sometimes interpret some genetic tests. 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:49.520 That's basically what I do. My involvement in the justice 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:54.240 system is extracurricular. I get permission from the Dean's office 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:58.720 to consult with the Federal Defender's office. I have compiled 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:03.920 this group of autopsy reports that show pulmonary edema in 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:08.400 the majority of inmates that have been executed using lethal 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:14.240 injection over the past I don't know five years, so 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:19.480 Pulmonary edema is the movement of fluid into the air 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:23.480 spaces of the law when you have something like heart failure. 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:27.400 For instance, blood backs up behind the heart and produces 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:31.120 increased pressure in the tiny capillaries of the lung and 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:35.520 that oozes out into the air spaces. The drugs that 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:39.800 are administered for lethal injection, apart from the potassium chloride, 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:43.000 would not be expected to affect the heart, so it 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:45.920 was surprising to me to find in these autopsies that 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:50.560 there was pulmonary aedema. Inmates being executed by lethal injection 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:56.199 have experienced a variety of symptoms and signs indicating respiratory 0:08:56.240 --> 0:09:00.719 distress during the administration of the first drug, a three 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:05.360 drug cocktail involving medazz A lamp. I wanted to see 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:09.240 this firsthand. The word autopsy means to see for oneself, 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:12.199 and so this was an opportunity for me to see 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:15.720 for myself what was really going on in the lungs 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:18.640 of these inmates who are being executed with these drugs. 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:24.240 I saw firsthand exactly what was described. The lungs were heavy, 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:28.120 much heavier than normal, maybe twice the normal weight. They 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:30.440 were filled with fluids, so when you cut into them, 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:33.480 fluid oozed out. When you cut into a normal lung, 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:37.880 there's just air there. There was bloody froth in the 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:41.320 large airways. These are not findings that I expect to 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:45.280 see in someone who has just been given something to 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:47.920 go to sleep, something to stop the breathing, and then 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:52.360 something to quickly stop their heart. This again fit into 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:57.640 our concept that medas lamb is doing something to cause pulmonaridema. 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:03.800 Medazz in order to be solubilized, has to be placed 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:07.280 in an acid solution, so it has a pH of three. 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:11.560 The normal body phs seven point four. It seems very 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:16.280 likely that that acid is essentially burning the tiny blood 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:20.280 vessels and the lungs, and that's allowing fluid to escape. 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:27.280 We also have looked at pentobarbital executions done here in Georgia. 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:32.040 Anti Barbatall, on the other hand, is highly alkaline, so 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:35.960 it has a pH of something like twelve or something 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:40.800 like that. It too results in pulmonary edema, the same 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:43.400 kind of finding, not as frequent, but the same kind 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:50.960 of finding. I would say that what I've learned from 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:57.240 this experience is that the current lethal injection protocol exposes 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:05.440 inmates to a significant risk of severe suffering. I'm not 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:10.160 someone who has expertise in anthesiology or pain management, but 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:13.120 I think that has to be changed. There has to 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:17.920 be some way to render inmates who are being executed 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:27.360 by lethal injection not just unconscious but completely insensate. The 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:31.960 current protocol calls for the medas a lamb to be 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:34.720 administered and then for someone to come in and do 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:39.160 what's called a consciousness check. So they poke you, they 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:42.160 yell your name, they touch your eyes, and if you 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.480 don't respond to that, you're considered to be unconscious enough 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:50.079 to have the other drugs administered. The problem is that 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:55.480 none of those stimuli are noxious or painful enough to 0:11:55.679 --> 0:12:00.959 rouse someone into awareness the way that Paul manary adema is, 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:04.920 or the way that the second and third drugs aren't. 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:11.559 Medass Lam is not an anesthetic. It's not approved for 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:17.240 use as an anesthetic. It's approved for sedation and colonoscopies 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:19.760 and things like that, but it's not it's not used 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:25.320 to bring about general anesthesia, according to my anesthesiologist colleagues. 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:30.240 So that's the problem is that we have every reason 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:35.640 to suspect that inmates executed using the three drug medas 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:44.040 lam procedure are aware of significant pain. So this the 0:12:44.120 --> 0:12:48.280 second drug is a paralytic. It's a neuromuscular blocking agent, 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:53.520 and we know from cases of awareness during anesthesia what 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:57.120 those patients experience. There are times when a patient is 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:01.440 not given sufficient anesthetic drug and they wake up during surgery. 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:08.079 When they do so under the influence of a neuromuscular 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:13.080 blocking agent, they describe often sensations of terror and an 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:16.760 inability to move, an inability to express their their pain, 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:22.040 and a sensation of being buried. Alive. Those patients are 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:25.960 not suffocating because their airway is taken care of by 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:29.880 the anesthesiologist, but if you didn't have an open airway, 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:34.920 you would sense suffocation. We know that if you give 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:39.240 potassium chloride, which is the drug most often used, if 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:43.920 you give that in any significant concentration to a live patient, 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:47.920 they experienced severe burning pain. So that drug has to 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:52.840 be diluted so that it doesn't cause extreme pain when 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:57.000 it's given by mistake in high concentrations. We know exactly 0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:18.280 what it does, and it's extremely painful. The court and 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:24.040 the law of the land requires that punishment be not cruel. 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:29.720 That's the Eighth Amendment that specifically proscribes cruelty and punishment. 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:34.480 Cruel is a concept that will naturally evolve with the 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:40.080 maturation and evolution of civil society. With respect to punishment, 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:43.240 we used to think it was okay to say drawn 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:47.880 quarter people as part of their punishment, and now we 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:52.600 think that that feels cruel to us. This is Dr 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:59.120 Joel Zibert. Lethal injection was very effective at creating the 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:03.920 outward impression of a death that would not be cruel 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:10.280 because it is so bloodless, whereas death by firing squad 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:13.080 or death by electrocution, or death by hanging or death 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:17.080 by gas chamber was all very much a spectacle to observe. 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:21.960 The court is interested in the experience of the person 0:15:22.240 --> 0:15:25.280 who is executed with respect to cruelty, but that's of 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:28.960 course the person that one cannot ask, because once dead, 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:32.800 there could be no opinion. And so it turns out 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:37.640 that what cruelty evaluation turns on is the experience of 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:43.320 the observer. The individuals who have made the observation will 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:48.440 report on what they've seen. By design, lethal injection doesn't 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:52.960 show much. I can't know what the experiences because the 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:55.120 only person that can really know is the person that 0:15:55.240 --> 0:16:00.720 has died. I have actually witnessed the pen of arbit execution. 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:04.880 I was asked by the prisoner as part of his 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:10.520 legal defense. What I saw actually was quite striking on 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:14.440 a number of places. First of all, when you go 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:17.320 to the prison to be a witness of an execution, 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:20.920 you are a prisoner yourself. You really have to go 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:26.880 where you're told. Hours go by, and I'm invited now 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:31.840 to the execution house. It's now probably eleven thirty at night. 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:36.440 We walk into a room which is the viewing area, 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:39.320 which is set up a bit like church pews. And 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:42.000 as part of being a witness to an execution here 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:47.880 in Georgia, I'm not allowed to have a pen and paper, watch, phone, nothing. 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:56.400 We're looking through a glass now, and there's the prisoner. 0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:59.600 His name is Marcus Wellens. He's lying on a gurney. 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:05.320 You can't hear the sound through the glass. I can 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:08.320 see a couple of different intravenous puncture sites that are taped, 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:10.840 and one where there is an intervene is attached. The 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:14.840 tubing is attached and it snakes around and through a 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:18.320 hole in the back wall of the execution room. I 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:21.080 can't see the people who are going to be injecting 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:24.840 the medication or the chemical. Again. See, it's hard not 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:27.360 to use these kinds of words because of the way 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:30.080 this is designed. Even I find it difficult to be 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:35.240 careful about the language within the room. Here. There's now 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:38.440 Marcus Wellens lying on a gurney covered in a sheet, 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:41.320 and there are two Corrections officers on either side of him. 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:45.200 The warden is in the room. The sound comes on, 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:48.879 I assume, and the warden asks Marcus Wellens if he 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:52.000 has anything to say, and I can't even recall what 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:55.560 he says. He says something. The warden leaves, and I'm 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:59.960 assuming now that the execution has begun. There's nothing that's 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:03.360 as one to three go or something. It begins. Now, 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:07.560 there's nothing to see, and so I start. Because I 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:10.640 have no watch, I have no way of making any 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:14.040 record of this. I started my head to count silently 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:16.639 to myself the seconds as I can imagine them, to 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:18.399 try to figure if I can get some sequence of 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:22.600 the time here of what's going to take place. Maybe 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:28.360 thirty seconds into this, one of the Corrections officers collapses 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:33.600 forward onto the legs of Marcus Wellens and the room 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:39.280 fills with people. Suddenly rushing in, and the corrections officer 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:45.240 is dragged out and replaced by another corrections officer. The 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:51.960 execution proceeds maybe ten minutes later. Two what I believe, 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:56.280 our physicians walk into the room. One is wearing a 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:58.639 lab coat. I don't know what the lab coat is for. 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:04.280 And the physicians make a show of examining Marcus Wellens 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:07.879 listened with the stethoscope and see we're now told that 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:12.920 Marcus Wellens has died and the curtains closed. When I 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:16.200 consider that several things. First of all, I couldn't see much, 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:19.440 and I'm an expert in looking at these sorts of things, 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:22.880 and I could not see much. There was not much movement. 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:28.600 I know that the prisoner is strapped down by straps 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:31.880 that go from top to bottom, including his arms, including 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:35.119 his fingers. Actually, his fingers are taped, so even if 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:38.600 he was wanting to indicate something, there would be no 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:42.119 way for him to do it. The doctor with a 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:46.399 lab coat. I found that as a physician quite disturbing, 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:53.600 because when the corrections officer collapsed, there was a patient there. 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:57.960 Whether or not a prisoner is a patient is a 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:00.600 matter of opinion. I would say a prisoners not a patient, 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:03.000 and so a doctor has no mandate to begin with. 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:08.760 But that corrections officer collapse for some medical reason. And 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:11.440 I did not see the doctor Russian at that time, 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:14.480 So what was the doctor doing there if not to 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:21.960 help someone who became ill. As a physician in the 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:25.000 state of Georgia, I have a license to practice medicine. 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:28.359 The way that I get a license is that the 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:34.080 state legislature uses something called a Medical Practice Act, and 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:37.280 the Medical Practice Act, a medical board is put together 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:41.280 and the state says, we're not doctors here. You are. 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:46.720 You regulate yourself. But remember that the medical board, of course, 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:50.920 is subservient to the state. It's a creation of the state. 0:20:52.200 --> 0:20:56.720 So now the state wants to use physicians to be 0:20:56.840 --> 0:21:01.680 involved in executions, and the medical board will say, well, 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:04.879 we don't want the physicians to be involved in executions 0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:09.000 because we think that's a violation of ethical physician conduct. 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:13.879 State can use physicians in any way that the state desires, 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:17.280 even if it is adverse to what the medical board 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:22.200 may want, and can further protect the identity of these 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:26.879 physicians through secrecy. So you, as a member of the public, 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:30.480 might want to know whether or not your doctor participates 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:35.400 in execution. You would have no way of knowing individuals 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:41.399 that the state has decided need they need to use 0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:44.920 the things that doctors know. The state can do that. 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:49.359 In a sense, the chief physician, if you will, of 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:52.840 the State of Georgia is the governor, not the medical board. 0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:57.639 With respect to the rightness or wrongs of capital punishment. 0:21:58.440 --> 0:22:02.399 I'm agnostic that my view here concerns this method of 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:07.159 execution and methods of execution that I think impact on 0:22:07.280 --> 0:22:13.720 the way the state uses medicine and science for its purposes. 0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:19.840 I would request that the state free up its relationship 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:23.520 or end its relationship with science and medicine. It can 0:22:23.680 --> 0:22:28.000 execute individuals in another way, and whether or not states 0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:31.000 choose to carry out executions by another method, again, that's 0:22:31.440 --> 0:22:34.240 the purview of the state. That's not me. But my 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:37.439 position here is that I'm against lethal injection in all 0:22:37.520 --> 0:22:40.800 of its forms. I think it's clearly cruel, and I 0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:44.000 asked the state to again to end its relationship with 0:22:44.160 --> 0:22:48.720 science and medicine and stop usurping or impersonating science and 0:22:48.800 --> 0:22:51.639 medicine as if to suggest that there's some level of 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:56.920 safe oversight or some kind of accreditation or some some 0:22:57.160 --> 0:23:01.200 approval of this kind of technique of execution where there 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:23.679 is not. The debate on the death penalty is extremely complicated, 0:23:23.760 --> 0:23:26.240 to say the least. At its core, it comes down 0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:29.440 to a couple of points. The first point, from my perspective, 0:23:29.560 --> 0:23:32.960 hinges on the idea that defense attorneys are charged to 0:23:33.119 --> 0:23:36.840 act as zealous advocates for their clients. That means leaving 0:23:36.960 --> 0:23:40.400 no stone unturned. We're looking for any legal or factual 0:23:40.520 --> 0:23:44.160 defense available to help their client reach a favorable result 0:23:45.000 --> 0:23:48.240 in a capital case. Mounting a constitutional challenge to the 0:23:48.320 --> 0:23:52.159 death penalty is one such legal defense. In order to 0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:55.560 attempt to avoid the death penalty, defense counsel has an 0:23:55.600 --> 0:24:00.399 ethical obligation to explore and pursue an Eighth Amendment cruel 0:24:00.480 --> 0:24:05.800 and unusual challenge. The other point really goes into what 0:24:06.119 --> 0:24:09.439 the purpose of a prison is, and that varies from 0:24:09.520 --> 0:24:12.720 state to state and city to city. The three main 0:24:12.840 --> 0:24:19.159 purposes of prisons are punishment, rehabilitation, and deterrence. Both the 0:24:19.240 --> 0:24:23.240 death penalty and life without parole effectively rule out the 0:24:23.359 --> 0:24:26.960 idea of rehabilitation because that person, one way or the 0:24:27.040 --> 0:24:30.119 other will be spending the rest of their life in prison. 0:24:31.560 --> 0:24:34.720 There's some debate about whether life in prison or the 0:24:34.840 --> 0:24:38.080 death penalty is the more punitive of the two, and 0:24:38.200 --> 0:24:41.480 I think personally that that varies from one person to 0:24:41.600 --> 0:24:45.879 the next. Some defendants have actually expressed a preference for 0:24:45.960 --> 0:24:49.359 the death penalty once they see what life in prison 0:24:49.560 --> 0:24:52.760 is all about, while others fight hard to avoid the 0:24:52.880 --> 0:24:57.359 death penalty at trial. But the idea of punishment isn't 0:24:57.440 --> 0:25:01.240 completely black and white. What this then comes down to 0:25:01.720 --> 0:25:05.480 is deterrence. In other words, does the death penalty stop 0:25:05.600 --> 0:25:08.720 people from committing crimes? On the one hand, you have 0:25:08.920 --> 0:25:12.159 absolute certainty that the person who was convicted for the 0:25:12.280 --> 0:25:15.720 crime will not commit that crime again once they have 0:25:15.840 --> 0:25:19.439 been killed by the state. But by looking at states 0:25:19.520 --> 0:25:22.399 like Georgia or even Texas that happens to have an 0:25:22.440 --> 0:25:25.920 express lane to the death penalty, we've seen no proof 0:25:26.040 --> 0:25:28.960 that it makes other people in society think twice about 0:25:29.040 --> 0:25:34.080 committing other serious crimes. In my opinion, as a practical matter, 0:25:34.480 --> 0:25:37.240 we need to rethink the death penalty and think harder 0:25:37.320 --> 0:25:41.399 about what is actually preventing people from committing these crimes 0:25:41.480 --> 0:25:45.680 in the first place. It is also impossible to overlook 0:25:45.800 --> 0:25:50.840 the known fact that people are wrongfully convicted. This season 0:25:51.000 --> 0:25:55.159 on this show, we spoke with people who were convicted wrongfully, 0:25:55.359 --> 0:25:58.800 in prisoned wrongfully for crimes that they did not commit. 0:25:59.800 --> 0:26:02.000 As it is, there is no way to get them 0:26:02.040 --> 0:26:05.119 their lost time back. But if they had been executed, 0:26:05.320 --> 0:26:09.800 the injustice would have been truly irreversible. According to the 0:26:09.960 --> 0:26:13.639 Death Penalty Information Center, there have been one hundred sixty 0:26:13.720 --> 0:26:17.960 six individuals exonerated from death row in the United States 0:26:18.119 --> 0:26:22.639 since nineteen seventy three. That's one and sixty six people 0:26:22.920 --> 0:26:26.440 who were sentenced to death for crimes that they did 0:26:26.720 --> 0:26:31.440 not commit. With the death penalty comes finality, there is 0:26:31.640 --> 0:26:36.080 no more room to right a wrongful conviction once someone 0:26:36.240 --> 0:26:41.480 has been executed. As for me, if I ever find 0:26:41.560 --> 0:26:44.440 myself looking down the barrel of the choice between a 0:26:44.680 --> 0:26:48.520 life sentence without parole or the death penalty, I think 0:26:48.600 --> 0:26:52.000 I would probably choose life in prison. I don't think 0:26:52.080 --> 0:26:54.960 I could sleep at night knowing that the date of 0:26:55.080 --> 0:26:58.639 my assigned death was right around the corner. But I 0:26:58.760 --> 0:27:01.920 think other people might think differently, that a life in 0:27:02.040 --> 0:27:06.080 prison is really no life at all. The debate rages on. 0:27:10.119 --> 0:27:13.600 Sworn is a production of Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio. 0:27:14.200 --> 0:27:18.879 Our lead producer is Christina Dana Executive producers are Payne 0:27:18.960 --> 0:27:23.040 Lindsay and Donald Albright for Tenderfoot TV, Matt Frederick and 0:27:23.119 --> 0:27:27.360 Alex Williams for I Heart Radio, and myself Philip Holloway. 0:27:27.680 --> 0:27:32.879 Additional production by Trevor Young, Mason Lindsay, Mike Rooney, Jamie 0:27:32.920 --> 0:27:36.959 Albright and Hallie Beat. All original music and sound designed 0:27:37.040 --> 0:27:40.399 by Makeup and Vanity Set. Our theme song is Blood 0:27:40.440 --> 0:27:43.720 in the Water by Layup. Show art and design is 0:27:43.840 --> 0:27:48.800 by Trevor Eisler, editing by Christina Dana, mixing and mastering 0:27:49.040 --> 0:27:52.720 by Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner. Special thanks to the 0:27:52.800 --> 0:27:56.440 team at I Heart Radio from u t a or 0:27:56.560 --> 0:28:01.439 In Rosenbaund and Grace Royer, Bryan Nord and Matthew Papa 0:28:01.880 --> 0:28:06.160 from the Nord Group, back Media and Marketing, and Station sixteen. 0:28:06.720 --> 0:28:09.720 I'd also like to extend a very personal and special 0:28:09.840 --> 0:28:12.800 thanks to all of our contributors and guests who have 0:28:12.920 --> 0:28:16.239 helped to make all of these episodes possible. You can 0:28:16.280 --> 0:28:21.159 find Sworn on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at Sworn podcast 0:28:21.840 --> 0:28:25.400 and follow me your host, Philip Halloway on Twitter at 0:28:25.520 --> 0:28:30.000 phil Holloway e s Q. Our website is sworn podcast 0:28:30.119 --> 0:28:33.000 dot com, and you can check out other Tenderfoot TV 0:28:33.160 --> 0:28:38.440 podcasts at www dot tenderfoot dot tv. If you have 0:28:38.600 --> 0:28:42.440 questions or comments, you can email us at sworn at 0:28:42.560 --> 0:28:47.160 tenderfoot dot tv or leave us a voicemail at four 0:28:47.440 --> 0:28:52.600 zero four for one zero zero four four one. As always, 0:28:53.080 --> 0:28:53.880 thanks for listening