1
00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:05,440
Speaker 1: If you will place your left hand on the Bible

2
00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:08,960
Speaker 1: and raise your right hand, and please repeat after me,

3
00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:13,440
Speaker 1: and I do solemnly swear, then titled action find the

4
00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,840
Speaker 1: defendant guilty of the time. It makes no sense, it

5
00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:20,200
Speaker 1: doesn't fit. If it doesn't fit, you must a quit.

6
00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,239
Speaker 1: We all took the same of office. We're all bound

7
00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,480
Speaker 1: by that common commitment to support and defend the Constitution,

8
00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,360
Speaker 1: to bear true faith and allegiance to the same that

9
00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,199
Speaker 1: you faithfully discharge the duties of our office. Do you

10
00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,480
Speaker 1: solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about

11
00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:37,640
Speaker 1: to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and

12
00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,640
Speaker 1: nothing but the truth. From Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio,

13
00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:51,320
Speaker 1: this is sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. Let me

14
00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:53,599
Speaker 1: just explain that there is this thing that we call

15
00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:59,560
Speaker 1: lethal injection. Lethal injection is a method of executing prisoners

16
00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:05,759
Speaker 1: here in America. It basically involves the collecting and injecting

17
00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,840
Speaker 1: of certain kinds of chemicals through an intravenous that would

18
00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,120
Speaker 1: circulate in the body of a prisoner and would cause

19
00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:18,680
Speaker 1: them to die. And lethal injection uses things that in

20
00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,679
Speaker 1: my hand would be a medicine, but in the hand

21
00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:33,440
Speaker 1: of the state it becomes a poison. That was Dr Zivitt,

22
00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:37,319
Speaker 1: an anastasiologist here in Atlanta, Georgia. We sat down with

23
00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,440
Speaker 1: doctor Zivitt and his colleague, Dr Edgar to get their

24
00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:44,440
Speaker 1: medical opinions on lethal injection, how it works, and whether

25
00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,720
Speaker 1: or not in their professional medical opinions it falls under

26
00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:53,760
Speaker 1: the category of cruel and unusual punishment. My name is

27
00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,720
Speaker 1: is Joel's Zivitt. I'm a physician and I'm on the

28
00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:03,240
Speaker 1: faculty at every university. Traditionally, the mainstay of execution involved

29
00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:05,840
Speaker 1: a class of a drug called a barbiturate, of which

30
00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:10,679
Speaker 1: penta barbital is an example. It's an old drug. It

31
00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:15,320
Speaker 1: used to be an old sleeping pill. Pena barbital is

32
00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:20,840
Speaker 1: uncommonly used in hospitals, but periodically it's used. Certain states

33
00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:24,280
Speaker 1: have had difficulty obtaining pender barbital. Pender barbital is in

34
00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:28,880
Speaker 1: short supply, and also manufacturers vendors don't want it to

35
00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:31,880
Speaker 1: necessarily get into the hands of states that are going

36
00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,760
Speaker 1: to be using it for execution. Some states have sought

37
00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,920
Speaker 1: alternatives dependent barbital, and one of the alternatives dependent barbital

38
00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,799
Speaker 1: is the use of a drug called medazzy lamb, and

39
00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:48,480
Speaker 1: medaz lam is something called a benzo diazepine. You may

40
00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:50,519
Speaker 1: have heard of drugs like medas lam and the class

41
00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:56,200
Speaker 1: of medazzy lamb, for example, a drug called valium. It's

42
00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,880
Speaker 1: actually hard to kill people with medazzy lamb. It's not

43
00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,720
Speaker 1: made for that. It's made not to kill people. And again,

44
00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:05,920
Speaker 1: to be clear to none of this is the practice

45
00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:10,200
Speaker 1: of medicine, nor does medicine have any comment or assistance

46
00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:14,760
Speaker 1: in any of this. This is the state collecting, gathering

47
00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:22,560
Speaker 1: on its own, making investigations and making claims. States who

48
00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:28,079
Speaker 1: are needing to find chemicals for which to produce death

49
00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,320
Speaker 1: use medaz lam as a part of a three drug

50
00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:38,440
Speaker 1: or two drug combination to cause death. Pena barbatrol is used,

51
00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:43,400
Speaker 1: actually as the soul agent. Pena barbatol is used in

52
00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:47,280
Speaker 1: a large quantity here in Georgia. That's the that's the

53
00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:51,760
Speaker 1: chemical that's used, and by itself it can cause death.

54
00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,680
Speaker 1: Medazzy lamb by itself does not easily cause death, and

55
00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:01,000
Speaker 1: so it's mixed with other chemicals. You usually a combination

56
00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:05,320
Speaker 1: of something called potassium chloride, which is intended to stop

57
00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:10,640
Speaker 1: the heart, and another drug called a paralytic paralyzing drug,

58
00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,040
Speaker 1: and what that drug does is when it's given, a

59
00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,160
Speaker 1: person will be motionless, they will not be able to move,

60
00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,240
Speaker 1: not be able to breathe, but inside they'll be very

61
00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:24,080
Speaker 1: much awake and could experience any kinds of feeling. When

62
00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,520
Speaker 1: you're given a paralyzing drug. If you're not given the antidote,

63
00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:29,919
Speaker 1: or if you're left in the presence of this drug,

64
00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:34,920
Speaker 1: you will die of asphyxiation. And there is some concern

65
00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:40,960
Speaker 1: that execution using medazzy lamb and paralyzing drug is really

66
00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:48,039
Speaker 1: death by asphyxiation. I'm trying to make a case that

67
00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,760
Speaker 1: pina barbital is a cruel form of death, and the

68
00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:57,200
Speaker 1: court is saying, show us the evidence. Maybe um two

69
00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,240
Speaker 1: years ago now, I think I was given a aisle

70
00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:07,400
Speaker 1: of autopsies, autopsies performed on executed prisoners here in Georgia.

71
00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,159
Speaker 1: When I look through the file, it struck me that

72
00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,280
Speaker 1: there was something unusual. It seemed to me that there

73
00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,720
Speaker 1: was some organ damage, specifically to the lungs, to the heart,

74
00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,080
Speaker 1: to the liver. None of this I had expected, and

75
00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,839
Speaker 1: so I began to do some investigations of what these

76
00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:28,880
Speaker 1: organ system failures might suggest, what we find in majority

77
00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,800
Speaker 1: of these these inmates or these prisoners, rather, are these

78
00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:36,760
Speaker 1: fluid filled in the lungs, And if you could imagine,

79
00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,400
Speaker 1: it's more akin to what you might find in the

80
00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,080
Speaker 1: circumstances when someone drowns to death. It also looks interesting

81
00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,080
Speaker 1: similar to when someone overdoses on heroin, and you could

82
00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:54,680
Speaker 1: ask yourself is that cruel? By way of legal background,

83
00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,000
Speaker 1: the eighth the Moment to the Constitution, provides protection against

84
00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,080
Speaker 1: cruel and unusual punishment at the hands of the government

85
00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,920
Speaker 1: in the context of criminal sentencing. When the founding fathers

86
00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,599
Speaker 1: were drafting the Constitution, they did not have to look

87
00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,920
Speaker 1: back very far at all to find instances of torture

88
00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,760
Speaker 1: and other criminal punishments that were certainly cruel, even if

89
00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:19,159
Speaker 1: not so unusual for their time. Thus, the eighth Amendment

90
00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:22,640
Speaker 1: is a direct protection against the kinds of punishment the

91
00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,120
Speaker 1: King and Crown used to dole out once upon a time.

92
00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,640
Speaker 1: The problem is, as capital punishment and prison conditions have

93
00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,240
Speaker 1: changed and evolved over time, the vague meaning of the

94
00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,839
Speaker 1: eighth Amendment is consistently challenged, as courts have had to

95
00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,760
Speaker 1: decide just what is and is not cruel and unusual punishment.

96
00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:45,159
Speaker 1: Like so many things in the Constitution, it is a

97
00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,640
Speaker 1: constantly changing legal standard that is open to debate and

98
00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:53,479
Speaker 1: interpretation as societal norms evolve. It should come as no

99
00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:57,800
Speaker 1: surprise that lethal injection and capital punishment is the major

100
00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,400
Speaker 1: leagues of criminal litigation when it comes to the rights

101
00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:08,159
Speaker 1: of the accused under the Eighth Amendment. This is Dr

102
00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,600
Speaker 1: Mark Edgar. He is a pathologist and associate professor of

103
00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:17,640
Speaker 1: Pathology and laboratory Science. So I spend my day mostly

104
00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:22,360
Speaker 1: looking at specimens removed from the operating room from patients

105
00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,560
Speaker 1: who are having surgery for cancer or a variety of

106
00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:30,400
Speaker 1: other non cancerous things. I teach residents here. I also

107
00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,440
Speaker 1: do autopsies. When there are autopsies to be done, I

108
00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:41,480
Speaker 1: teach medical students, and I sometimes interpret some genetic tests.

109
00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:49,520
Speaker 1: That's basically what I do. My involvement in the justice

110
00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:54,240
Speaker 1: system is extracurricular. I get permission from the Dean's office

111
00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:58,720
Speaker 1: to consult with the Federal Defender's office. I have compiled

112
00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:03,920
Speaker 1: this group of autopsy reports that show pulmonary edema in

113
00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:08,400
Speaker 1: the majority of inmates that have been executed using lethal

114
00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:14,240
Speaker 1: injection over the past I don't know five years, so

115
00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:19,480
Speaker 1: Pulmonary edema is the movement of fluid into the air

116
00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:23,480
Speaker 1: spaces of the law when you have something like heart failure.

117
00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:27,400
Speaker 1: For instance, blood backs up behind the heart and produces

118
00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,120
Speaker 1: increased pressure in the tiny capillaries of the lung and

119
00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:35,520
Speaker 1: that oozes out into the air spaces. The drugs that

120
00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:39,800
Speaker 1: are administered for lethal injection, apart from the potassium chloride,

121
00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,000
Speaker 1: would not be expected to affect the heart, so it

122
00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,920
Speaker 1: was surprising to me to find in these autopsies that

123
00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:50,560
Speaker 1: there was pulmonary aedema. Inmates being executed by lethal injection

124
00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:56,199
Speaker 1: have experienced a variety of symptoms and signs indicating respiratory

125
00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:00,719
Speaker 1: distress during the administration of the first drug, a three

126
00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:05,360
Speaker 1: drug cocktail involving medazz A lamp. I wanted to see

127
00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:09,240
Speaker 1: this firsthand. The word autopsy means to see for oneself,

128
00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,199
Speaker 1: and so this was an opportunity for me to see

129
00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,720
Speaker 1: for myself what was really going on in the lungs

130
00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,640
Speaker 1: of these inmates who are being executed with these drugs.

131
00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:24,240
Speaker 1: I saw firsthand exactly what was described. The lungs were heavy,

132
00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,120
Speaker 1: much heavier than normal, maybe twice the normal weight. They

133
00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:30,440
Speaker 1: were filled with fluids, so when you cut into them,

134
00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,480
Speaker 1: fluid oozed out. When you cut into a normal lung,

135
00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,880
Speaker 1: there's just air there. There was bloody froth in the

136
00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,320
Speaker 1: large airways. These are not findings that I expect to

137
00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:45,280
Speaker 1: see in someone who has just been given something to

138
00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:47,920
Speaker 1: go to sleep, something to stop the breathing, and then

139
00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,360
Speaker 1: something to quickly stop their heart. This again fit into

140
00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:57,640
Speaker 1: our concept that medas lamb is doing something to cause pulmonaridema.

141
00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,800
Speaker 1: Medazz in order to be solubilized, has to be placed

142
00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,280
Speaker 1: in an acid solution, so it has a pH of three.

143
00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,560
Speaker 1: The normal body phs seven point four. It seems very

144
00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:16,280
Speaker 1: likely that that acid is essentially burning the tiny blood

145
00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,280
Speaker 1: vessels and the lungs, and that's allowing fluid to escape.

146
00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:27,280
Speaker 1: We also have looked at pentobarbital executions done here in Georgia.

147
00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:32,040
Speaker 1: Anti Barbatall, on the other hand, is highly alkaline, so

148
00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,960
Speaker 1: it has a pH of something like twelve or something

149
00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:40,800
Speaker 1: like that. It too results in pulmonary edema, the same

150
00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,400
Speaker 1: kind of finding, not as frequent, but the same kind

151
00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:50,960
Speaker 1: of finding. I would say that what I've learned from

152
00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:57,240
Speaker 1: this experience is that the current lethal injection protocol exposes

153
00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:05,440
Speaker 1: inmates to a significant risk of severe suffering. I'm not

154
00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:10,160
Speaker 1: someone who has expertise in anthesiology or pain management, but

155
00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,120
Speaker 1: I think that has to be changed. There has to

156
00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:17,920
Speaker 1: be some way to render inmates who are being executed

157
00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:27,360
Speaker 1: by lethal injection not just unconscious but completely insensate. The

158
00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:31,960
Speaker 1: current protocol calls for the medas a lamb to be

159
00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,720
Speaker 1: administered and then for someone to come in and do

160
00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:39,160
Speaker 1: what's called a consciousness check. So they poke you, they

161
00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,160
Speaker 1: yell your name, they touch your eyes, and if you

162
00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,480
Speaker 1: don't respond to that, you're considered to be unconscious enough

163
00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:50,079
Speaker 1: to have the other drugs administered. The problem is that

164
00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:55,480
Speaker 1: none of those stimuli are noxious or painful enough to

165
00:11:55,679 --> 00:12:00,959
Speaker 1: rouse someone into awareness the way that Paul manary adema is,

166
00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,920
Speaker 1: or the way that the second and third drugs aren't.

167
00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:11,559
Speaker 1: Medass Lam is not an anesthetic. It's not approved for

168
00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:17,240
Speaker 1: use as an anesthetic. It's approved for sedation and colonoscopies

169
00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:19,760
Speaker 1: and things like that, but it's not it's not used

170
00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:25,320
Speaker 1: to bring about general anesthesia, according to my anesthesiologist colleagues.

171
00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,240
Speaker 1: So that's the problem is that we have every reason

172
00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:35,640
Speaker 1: to suspect that inmates executed using the three drug medas

173
00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:44,040
Speaker 1: lam procedure are aware of significant pain. So this the

174
00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:48,280
Speaker 1: second drug is a paralytic. It's a neuromuscular blocking agent,

175
00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:53,520
Speaker 1: and we know from cases of awareness during anesthesia what

176
00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,120
Speaker 1: those patients experience. There are times when a patient is

177
00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:01,440
Speaker 1: not given sufficient anesthetic drug and they wake up during surgery.

178
00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:08,079
Speaker 1: When they do so under the influence of a neuromuscular

179
00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:13,080
Speaker 1: blocking agent, they describe often sensations of terror and an

180
00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,760
Speaker 1: inability to move, an inability to express their their pain,

181
00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:22,040
Speaker 1: and a sensation of being buried. Alive. Those patients are

182
00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,960
Speaker 1: not suffocating because their airway is taken care of by

183
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,880
Speaker 1: the anesthesiologist, but if you didn't have an open airway,

184
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:34,920
Speaker 1: you would sense suffocation. We know that if you give

185
00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:39,240
Speaker 1: potassium chloride, which is the drug most often used, if

186
00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:43,920
Speaker 1: you give that in any significant concentration to a live patient,

187
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,920
Speaker 1: they experienced severe burning pain. So that drug has to

188
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:52,840
Speaker 1: be diluted so that it doesn't cause extreme pain when

189
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:57,000
Speaker 1: it's given by mistake in high concentrations. We know exactly

190
00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:18,280
Speaker 1: what it does, and it's extremely painful. The court and

191
00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:24,040
Speaker 1: the law of the land requires that punishment be not cruel.

192
00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:29,720
Speaker 1: That's the Eighth Amendment that specifically proscribes cruelty and punishment.

193
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,480
Speaker 1: Cruel is a concept that will naturally evolve with the

194
00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:40,080
Speaker 1: maturation and evolution of civil society. With respect to punishment,

195
00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,240
Speaker 1: we used to think it was okay to say drawn

196
00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:47,880
Speaker 1: quarter people as part of their punishment, and now we

197
00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:52,600
Speaker 1: think that that feels cruel to us. This is Dr

198
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:59,120
Speaker 1: Joel Zibert. Lethal injection was very effective at creating the

199
00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:03,920
Speaker 1: outward impression of a death that would not be cruel

200
00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:10,280
Speaker 1: because it is so bloodless, whereas death by firing squad

201
00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,080
Speaker 1: or death by electrocution, or death by hanging or death

202
00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:17,080
Speaker 1: by gas chamber was all very much a spectacle to observe.

203
00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,960
Speaker 1: The court is interested in the experience of the person

204
00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,280
Speaker 1: who is executed with respect to cruelty, but that's of

205
00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,960
Speaker 1: course the person that one cannot ask, because once dead,

206
00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,800
Speaker 1: there could be no opinion. And so it turns out

207
00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:37,640
Speaker 1: that what cruelty evaluation turns on is the experience of

208
00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:43,320
Speaker 1: the observer. The individuals who have made the observation will

209
00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:48,440
Speaker 1: report on what they've seen. By design, lethal injection doesn't

210
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,960
Speaker 1: show much. I can't know what the experiences because the

211
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,120
Speaker 1: only person that can really know is the person that

212
00:15:55,240 --> 00:16:00,720
Speaker 1: has died. I have actually witnessed the pen of arbit execution.

213
00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,880
Speaker 1: I was asked by the prisoner as part of his

214
00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:10,520
Speaker 1: legal defense. What I saw actually was quite striking on

215
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:14,440
Speaker 1: a number of places. First of all, when you go

216
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,320
Speaker 1: to the prison to be a witness of an execution,

217
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,920
Speaker 1: you are a prisoner yourself. You really have to go

218
00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:26,880
Speaker 1: where you're told. Hours go by, and I'm invited now

219
00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:31,840
Speaker 1: to the execution house. It's now probably eleven thirty at night.

220
00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,440
Speaker 1: We walk into a room which is the viewing area,

221
00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,320
Speaker 1: which is set up a bit like church pews. And

222
00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,000
Speaker 1: as part of being a witness to an execution here

223
00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:47,880
Speaker 1: in Georgia, I'm not allowed to have a pen and paper, watch, phone, nothing.

224
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:56,400
Speaker 1: We're looking through a glass now, and there's the prisoner.

225
00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,600
Speaker 1: His name is Marcus Wellens. He's lying on a gurney.

226
00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:05,320
Speaker 1: You can't hear the sound through the glass. I can

227
00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,320
Speaker 1: see a couple of different intravenous puncture sites that are taped,

228
00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:10,840
Speaker 1: and one where there is an intervene is attached. The

229
00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,840
Speaker 1: tubing is attached and it snakes around and through a

230
00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,320
Speaker 1: hole in the back wall of the execution room. I

231
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,080
Speaker 1: can't see the people who are going to be injecting

232
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,840
Speaker 1: the medication or the chemical. Again. See, it's hard not

233
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,360
Speaker 1: to use these kinds of words because of the way

234
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,080
Speaker 1: this is designed. Even I find it difficult to be

235
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:35,240
Speaker 1: careful about the language within the room. Here. There's now

236
00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,440
Speaker 1: Marcus Wellens lying on a gurney covered in a sheet,

237
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,320
Speaker 1: and there are two Corrections officers on either side of him.

238
00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,200
Speaker 1: The warden is in the room. The sound comes on,

239
00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,879
Speaker 1: I assume, and the warden asks Marcus Wellens if he

240
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,000
Speaker 1: has anything to say, and I can't even recall what

241
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,560
Speaker 1: he says. He says something. The warden leaves, and I'm

242
00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,960
Speaker 1: assuming now that the execution has begun. There's nothing that's

243
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,360
Speaker 1: as one to three go or something. It begins. Now,

244
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,560
Speaker 1: there's nothing to see, and so I start. Because I

245
00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,640
Speaker 1: have no watch, I have no way of making any

246
00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:14,040
Speaker 1: record of this. I started my head to count silently

247
00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,639
Speaker 1: to myself the seconds as I can imagine them, to

248
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:18,399
Speaker 1: try to figure if I can get some sequence of

249
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:22,600
Speaker 1: the time here of what's going to take place. Maybe

250
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:28,360
Speaker 1: thirty seconds into this, one of the Corrections officers collapses

251
00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:33,600
Speaker 1: forward onto the legs of Marcus Wellens and the room

252
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:39,280
Speaker 1: fills with people. Suddenly rushing in, and the corrections officer

253
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:45,240
Speaker 1: is dragged out and replaced by another corrections officer. The

254
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:51,960
Speaker 1: execution proceeds maybe ten minutes later. Two what I believe,

255
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:56,280
Speaker 1: our physicians walk into the room. One is wearing a

256
00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,639
Speaker 1: lab coat. I don't know what the lab coat is for.

257
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,280
Speaker 1: And the physicians make a show of examining Marcus Wellens

258
00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,879
Speaker 1: listened with the stethoscope and see we're now told that

259
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:12,920
Speaker 1: Marcus Wellens has died and the curtains closed. When I

260
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,200
Speaker 1: consider that several things. First of all, I couldn't see much,

261
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,440
Speaker 1: and I'm an expert in looking at these sorts of things,

262
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,880
Speaker 1: and I could not see much. There was not much movement.

263
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:28,600
Speaker 1: I know that the prisoner is strapped down by straps

264
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,880
Speaker 1: that go from top to bottom, including his arms, including

265
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,119
Speaker 1: his fingers. Actually, his fingers are taped, so even if

266
00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:38,600
Speaker 1: he was wanting to indicate something, there would be no

267
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,119
Speaker 1: way for him to do it. The doctor with a

268
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:46,399
Speaker 1: lab coat. I found that as a physician quite disturbing,

269
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:53,600
Speaker 1: because when the corrections officer collapsed, there was a patient there.

270
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,960
Speaker 1: Whether or not a prisoner is a patient is a

271
00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,600
Speaker 1: matter of opinion. I would say a prisoners not a patient,

272
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,000
Speaker 1: and so a doctor has no mandate to begin with.

273
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:08,760
Speaker 1: But that corrections officer collapse for some medical reason. And

274
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,440
Speaker 1: I did not see the doctor Russian at that time,

275
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,480
Speaker 1: So what was the doctor doing there if not to

276
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:21,960
Speaker 1: help someone who became ill. As a physician in the

277
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,000
Speaker 1: state of Georgia, I have a license to practice medicine.

278
00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,359
Speaker 1: The way that I get a license is that the

279
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:34,080
Speaker 1: state legislature uses something called a Medical Practice Act, and

280
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,280
Speaker 1: the Medical Practice Act, a medical board is put together

281
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,280
Speaker 1: and the state says, we're not doctors here. You are.

282
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:46,720
Speaker 1: You regulate yourself. But remember that the medical board, of course,

283
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:50,920
Speaker 1: is subservient to the state. It's a creation of the state.

284
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:56,720
Speaker 1: So now the state wants to use physicians to be

285
00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:01,680
Speaker 1: involved in executions, and the medical board will say, well,

286
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,879
Speaker 1: we don't want the physicians to be involved in executions

287
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 1: because we think that's a violation of ethical physician conduct.

288
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,879
Speaker 1: State can use physicians in any way that the state desires,

289
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,280
Speaker 1: even if it is adverse to what the medical board

290
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:22,200
Speaker 1: may want, and can further protect the identity of these

291
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:26,879
Speaker 1: physicians through secrecy. So you, as a member of the public,

292
00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,480
Speaker 1: might want to know whether or not your doctor participates

293
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:35,400
Speaker 1: in execution. You would have no way of knowing individuals

294
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:41,399
Speaker 1: that the state has decided need they need to use

295
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,920
Speaker 1: the things that doctors know. The state can do that.

296
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,359
Speaker 1: In a sense, the chief physician, if you will, of

297
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 1: the State of Georgia is the governor, not the medical board.

298
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,639
Speaker 1: With respect to the rightness or wrongs of capital punishment.

299
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,399
Speaker 1: I'm agnostic that my view here concerns this method of

300
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:07,159
Speaker 1: execution and methods of execution that I think impact on

301
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:13,720
Speaker 1: the way the state uses medicine and science for its purposes.

302
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 1: I would request that the state free up its relationship

303
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 1: or end its relationship with science and medicine. It can

304
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 1: execute individuals in another way, and whether or not states

305
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 1: choose to carry out executions by another method, again, that's

306
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 1: the purview of the state. That's not me. But my

307
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,439
Speaker 1: position here is that I'm against lethal injection in all

308
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 1: of its forms. I think it's clearly cruel, and I

309
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 1: asked the state to again to end its relationship with

310
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 1: science and medicine and stop usurping or impersonating science and

311
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,639
Speaker 1: medicine as if to suggest that there's some level of

312
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:56,920
Speaker 1: safe oversight or some kind of accreditation or some some

313
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,200
Speaker 1: approval of this kind of technique of execution where there

314
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:23,679
Speaker 1: is not. The debate on the death penalty is extremely complicated,

315
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,240
Speaker 1: to say the least. At its core, it comes down

316
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,440
Speaker 1: to a couple of points. The first point, from my perspective,

317
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 1: hinges on the idea that defense attorneys are charged to

318
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 1: act as zealous advocates for their clients. That means leaving

319
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,400
Speaker 1: no stone unturned. We're looking for any legal or factual

320
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,160
Speaker 1: defense available to help their client reach a favorable result

321
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 1: in a capital case. Mounting a constitutional challenge to the

322
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,159
Speaker 1: death penalty is one such legal defense. In order to

323
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 1: attempt to avoid the death penalty, defense counsel has an

324
00:23:55,600 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 1: ethical obligation to explore and pursue an Eighth Amendment cruel

325
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 1: and unusual challenge. The other point really goes into what

326
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,439
Speaker 1: the purpose of a prison is, and that varies from

327
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 1: state to state and city to city. The three main

328
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:19,159
Speaker 1: purposes of prisons are punishment, rehabilitation, and deterrence. Both the

329
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 1: death penalty and life without parole effectively rule out the

330
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 1: idea of rehabilitation because that person, one way or the

331
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 1: other will be spending the rest of their life in prison.

332
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 1: There's some debate about whether life in prison or the

333
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 1: death penalty is the more punitive of the two, and

334
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 1: I think personally that that varies from one person to

335
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 1: the next. Some defendants have actually expressed a preference for

336
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 1: the death penalty once they see what life in prison

337
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 1: is all about, while others fight hard to avoid the

338
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 1: death penalty at trial. But the idea of punishment isn't

339
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: completely black and white. What this then comes down to

340
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 1: is deterrence. In other words, does the death penalty stop

341
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 1: people from committing crimes? On the one hand, you have

342
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 1: absolute certainty that the person who was convicted for the

343
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 1: crime will not commit that crime again once they have

344
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,439
Speaker 1: been killed by the state. But by looking at states

345
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,399
Speaker 1: like Georgia or even Texas that happens to have an

346
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 1: express lane to the death penalty, we've seen no proof

347
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 1: that it makes other people in society think twice about

348
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: committing other serious crimes. In my opinion, as a practical matter,

349
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: we need to rethink the death penalty and think harder

350
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 1: about what is actually preventing people from committing these crimes

351
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 1: in the first place. It is also impossible to overlook

352
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 1: the known fact that people are wrongfully convicted. This season

353
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 1: on this show, we spoke with people who were convicted wrongfully,

354
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 1: in prisoned wrongfully for crimes that they did not commit.

355
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: As it is, there is no way to get them

356
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: their lost time back. But if they had been executed,

357
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: the injustice would have been truly irreversible. According to the

358
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 1: Death Penalty Information Center, there have been one hundred sixty

359
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 1: six individuals exonerated from death row in the United States

360
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 1: since nineteen seventy three. That's one and sixty six people

361
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 1: who were sentenced to death for crimes that they did

362
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 1: not commit. With the death penalty comes finality, there is

363
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: no more room to right a wrongful conviction once someone

364
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 1: has been executed. As for me, if I ever find

365
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 1: myself looking down the barrel of the choice between a

366
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 1: life sentence without parole or the death penalty, I think

367
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: I would probably choose life in prison. I don't think

368
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 1: I could sleep at night knowing that the date of

369
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 1: my assigned death was right around the corner. But I

370
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 1: think other people might think differently, that a life in

371
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: prison is really no life at all. The debate rages on.

372
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: Sworn is a production of Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio.

373
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 1: Our lead producer is Christina Dana Executive producers are Payne

374
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: Lindsay and Donald Albright for Tenderfoot TV, Matt Frederick and

375
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 1: Alex Williams for I Heart Radio, and myself Philip Holloway.

376
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:32,879
Speaker 1: Additional production by Trevor Young, Mason Lindsay, Mike Rooney, Jamie

377
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,959
Speaker 1: Albright and Hallie Beat. All original music and sound designed

378
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 1: by Makeup and Vanity Set. Our theme song is Blood

379
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: in the Water by Layup. Show art and design is

380
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: by Trevor Eisler, editing by Christina Dana, mixing and mastering

381
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: by Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner. Special thanks to the

382
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 1: team at I Heart Radio from u t a or

383
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 1: In Rosenbaund and Grace Royer, Bryan Nord and Matthew Papa

384
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,160
Speaker 1: from the Nord Group, back Media and Marketing, and Station sixteen.

385
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 1: I'd also like to extend a very personal and special

386
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: thanks to all of our contributors and guests who have

387
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,239
Speaker 1: helped to make all of these episodes possible. You can

388
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 1: find Sworn on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at Sworn podcast

389
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 1: and follow me your host, Philip Halloway on Twitter at

390
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: phil Holloway e s Q. Our website is sworn podcast

391
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: dot com, and you can check out other Tenderfoot TV

392
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: podcasts at www dot tenderfoot dot tv. If you have

393
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: questions or comments, you can email us at sworn at

394
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 1: tenderfoot dot tv or leave us a voicemail at four

395
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: zero four for one zero zero four four one. As always,

396
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: thanks for listening