WEBVTT - From the Vault: Thirst, Part 1 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:07.600 Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:10.600 name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:13.280 out this week, so we're bringing you some episodes from 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:17.320 the vault. This is part one of our series on thirst. 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:21.200 Thirst like you feel in your throat and throughout your body. 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:24.040 It's when you need something to drink thirst. Uh. This 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:31.800 episode originally published on February one. I hope you enjoy 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:34.159 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:43.040 Heart Radio. Hey are you welcome to Stuff to Blow 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:46.440 your Mind? My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:49.360 And today I wanted to start off with a short 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:51.840 reading of a few lines from the Odyssey that will 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:55.160 introduce the subject we're getting into for the next few episodes. 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:59.000 So this is from the Odyssey book eleven. I'm gonna 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:02.560 be reading from the m. Lee Wilson translation. But this 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:06.919 is a section of the story where Odysseus is describing 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:10.520 the horrors that he witnessed in Hades, and and there 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:13.240 are different kinds of horrors, Like some of the horror 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:18.080 of Hades is just a kind of profound, depressing disappointment 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:21.959 with when he's confronted with the reality of how crappy 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:24.200 it is to be dead, you know that, Like he 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:26.720 he tries to talk to Ajax, and Ajax can't even 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:30.360 really say anything. But then there's this other section where 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:35.200 he starts seeing more Dante in Inferno, kind of horrors 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:39.520 of actual tortures, and so he sees King Minos, he 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:43.240 sees a Ryan, he sees Sisyphus famously, you know, in 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:45.800 the futile labor of pushing the boulder up a hill, 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:48.440 longing to see it rolled down again. But eventually he 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:52.160 comes to a figure called Tantalus. And then here's what 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:56.880 Odysseus says about Tantalus. I saw the pain of Tantalus 0:01:56.920 --> 0:02:01.040 in water to his chin so parched, no way to drink. 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:04.240 When that old man bent down towards the water, it 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:07.800 was gone. Some god had dried it up. And at 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:12.400 his feet dark earth appeared, tall leafy trees hung fruit 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:16.520 above his head, sweet figs and pomegranates, and brightly shining 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:19.920 apples and ripe olives. But when he grasped them with 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:23.480 his hands, the wind hurled them away towards the shadowy 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:26.640 clouds now. When I look at the contraposition. Of the 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:29.520 two tortures of Tantalus, You've got the one. You know, 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:31.519 he always wants to reach up to get the delicious 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:33.560 fruit from the tree, but the wind kicks up, it 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:35.600 pulls it out from his hands, and he can't ever 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:38.560 get the food. That's a that's a a torture in 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:42.200 Tartarus by starvation, which is not good. Obviously, starvation is 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:46.799 very bad. And it's probably more expressively phrase the second 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:50.360 half of this, uh, the situation, but it's actually the 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:52.920 first half that fills me with more horror when it 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:56.520 talks about how he's he's standing in water, so it's like, 0:02:56.680 --> 0:02:59.160 you know, he feels it lapping around on his skin, 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:01.839 but every time he tries to kneel down to put 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:03.720 his face to it to get a drink, the water 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:06.520 just is pulled away, as if by a tide. The 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:09.120 gods dry it up away from his mouth, and he 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:12.320 can't ever have a drink. To me, that's the more 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:16.799 terrifying half of this situation. Yeah, yeah, I love the 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:21.400 image of Tantalus. Is this um this being that is uh, 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:25.480 It's he's like he's suspended between his desires, between his 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:27.919 needs needs or desires, depending on how you want to 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:30.440 frame it here, right, Well, I guess this raises questions 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:34.320 about the the biology of your shade in hades or tartarus, 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:36.600 Like does it actually need to eat and drink and 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:38.640 he can't get it? Or is this just some kind 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:42.200 of I don't know, psychological need his soul has that's 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:47.760 not really biological. I guess yeah, given what we we 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:52.160 we believe about the underworld the other myth cycles, I 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:54.160 guess it's the idea that he doesn't actually need the 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:57.160 fruit or the water to live, if you call this living. 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:00.880 He's forever suspended in the state of of on death 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:05.160 and on life. Um, but but wants to have the water, 0:04:05.320 --> 0:04:07.600 wants to have the fruit. Maybe that's the kind of 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:09.960 question you're not actually supposed to bother thinking about this, 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:13.320 like the annoying pedantic question that Plato would bring up. Yeah, 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:16.920 I mean well, Speaking of of philosophy, there is the 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:22.520 concept of Burden's ass named for fourteenth century French philosopher 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:25.880 gen Burden. This one. This is a basic idea that 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:28.720 also pops up in the works of Aristotle and uh 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:34.960 al Gazali various other writers. The more common thirst related 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:37.039 version is if you have a donkey that is both 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:40.719 hungry and thirsty and placed equal distance from both food 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:44.520 and water, it will remain immobile and die. Now, this 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:47.359 may be apart from the lesson that the the thought 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:50.280 experiment is trying to produce, but I think that's not 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:54.120 necessarily true. I think there might very well be biological 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:58.760 priorities that would place access to water above access to food. Yeah, 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:02.680 it's it's one of the paradoxes that maybe doesn't You 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:05.839 can't exactly recreate it in reality and expect it to 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:10.480 be quite as a captivating but uh, abstractly it's it's 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:13.240 kind of fascinating. So as Aristotle put it, quote, a 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:16.240 man being just as hungry as thirsty and placed in 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:19.960 between food and drink must necessarily remain where he is 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:22.880 and starve to death. So obviously that's not going to 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:25.160 be the case. If you're hungry and thirsty and the 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:29.920 waiter brings you your sandwich and your your cola at 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:32.520 the same time, you're not gonna die. You don't have 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:35.160 to give the waiter special instructions. You will. You worked 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:39.000 in restaurant industry, Joe. This is not like they don't 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:40.760 tell you this, right, They don't say look, don't put 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:42.640 the drink in the food in front of the customer 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:44.200 at the same time, or they will they will just 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:48.120 remain immobile and die. It is actually broadly considered very 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:50.760 important in restaurants to get people their drinks before you 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:53.080 get them their food. If you bring them food before 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:58.159 they get their drinks, people will get very confused and upset. Well, 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:01.279 and uh, I know, I I often hear you know, 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:03.200 when you're a lot of times when you're hungry, you're 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:08.280 actually thirsty, and therefore, to avoid and prevent overeating, you 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:11.120 want to make sure you have plenty of liquids as well. 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:13.240 So yeah, like, if I'm going into a restaurant situation, 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:16.400 I definitely want my water first because I feel like 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:20.039 I'm gonna I'm gonna have a more balanced experience eating 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:23.160 lunch or dinner there, you'll certainly have a more pleasant experience. 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:26.960 Though actually sorry, I'm just introducing exceptions to every single 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:29.320 thing we say so far. But this does come up 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:31.040 in a paper that I want to look at later. 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:34.080 There is a concept that's been documented widely in animal 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:39.080 biology known as dehydration and do standardrexia, which is essentially 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:42.960 the idea that many animals species. Certainly humans and rodents 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:48.880 will naturally restrict their own food intake in response to dehydration. Again, 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:51.560 there are some exceptions, some animals like get their water 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:55.560 entirely from food and so forth. But but but typically, 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:58.400 like if you get rodents and and they're thirsty, they 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:01.919 will eat less at each meal you give them, not 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:03.919 saying that's a way to live your life, though, I 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:07.240 mean better to be hydrated. Well, you know, coming back 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:09.720 to mythology a bit, I thought we might mention just 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:12.040 a few other you know, bits of myth and folklore 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:16.840 and legend and so forth concerning thirst. Uh, because I 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:18.600 feel like, you know, we we have the sort of 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:24.160 mythological echoes of the basic biological reality, and maybe these 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:27.560 can help and inform and shape our conversation as we 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:32.640 move forward. So there's one particular story I was taken 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:36.240 with from from from ancient China. It's an ancient story 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:39.560 dating back at least as far as the shan Haijing. 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:43.560 This is the the Fabulous Book of Monsters that we 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:45.760 we did an episode, did a couple episodes on I 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:51.080 think last year, and have recently or will be rerunning 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:53.800 those episodes very soon. I think the title is sometimes 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:57.720 translated as the Classic of the Mountains and Seas. Yeah. 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:00.320 So there's a lot of a lot of mythological beings 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:04.600 and places mentioned in the book Um and Uh, and 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:08.560 there's there is this account of Kuafu. It's a it's 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:11.040 a it's a story that continues to be told today 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:14.200 in modern China, and there have been many versions of it. 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:20.080 According to Yang and and Turner. In Chinese mythology, basically, 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:24.040 what you have in Kuofu is this primordial giant with 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:27.840 two yellow snakes circling his ears and two more yellow 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:31.680 snakes in his hands. And he's powerful, very powerful, certainly, 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:35.080 but he overestimates his own power, and depending on the 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:38.439 story and the exact telling, he either challenges the Sun 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:41.000 to a race, or he just wants to chase the 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:44.079 Sun's shadow and catch the Sun. I've also read a 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:46.880 version where he wants to prolong the day by catching 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:49.240 the sun, Like if I can just get my hands 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:50.920 on the Sun and then it can't move away, it 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:53.520 can't set, the day will never end. Oh that's a 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:57.120 good plan. Yeah, Well, either way it works out. This 0:08:57.200 --> 0:09:01.040 giant runs after the Sun, intending to catch it um, 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:03.840 but the Sun stays just ever out of his grasp, 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:08.000 and what happens, well, he grows ever thirstier. So eventually 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:09.560 he just has to stop for a second and he 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:12.559 drinks the Yellow river. Um. Then he stops and he 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:16.320 drinks drinks another river. But he's still so thirsty that 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:19.079 he heads for the Great Marsh to the north. But 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:22.280 on the way there he collapses. He dies of thirst. 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:26.040 And this is one of those stories that is often 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:28.640 used to explain geography. So they are different, all these 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:31.720 different details about what happens to his body once he falls, 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:34.480 what happens to his walking stick um or his club 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:37.800 once it falls, what happens to the dirt from his sandals, 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:40.400 you know, they become foothills, that kind of thing. But 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:43.080 it's also a tale about just overreaching. And so the 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:46.920 idea of of this giant chasing the sun is the 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:49.600 idea that yeah, he's powerful, but he thinks he's more 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:51.480 powerful than he is, and it's going to get him 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:54.199 into trouble. Oh that's interesting because to bring it back 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:58.520 to Tantalus, I mean, it's somewhat different, but both stories 0:09:59.000 --> 0:10:02.520 have the The problem with the character is that they're 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:06.880 in some way brazen or over audacious in their challenging 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:10.000 of celestial figures or gods because the While there are 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:13.679 multiple stories of what Tantalus did in order to deserve 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:17.079 this punishment in tartarus Um, but one of the most 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:20.680 commonly received stories is that Tantalus well. So it's often 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:23.959 said that Tantalus, like uh, shared a table with the gods, 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:25.800 so he was a king, but he'd be invited up 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:29.560 to Olympus to to dine with Zeus. And apparently at 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:32.720 some point Tantalus was serving a banquet to the gods 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:35.520 and as the main course, for some reason, he decided 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:40.200 to kill and serve his own son. So he liked, yeah, 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:43.680 that's that's that's a bad choice. So he yeah, he 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:47.520 boils his own son, serves his meat to the gods. Uh. 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:50.840 It's like this horrible samelier competition, like can you tell 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:53.600 this is my son you're eating? And the gods can 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:56.400 tell they are good semeliers, so they figure it out 0:10:57.000 --> 0:11:00.400 and uh. And apparently cannibalism and the kill of ken 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:04.000 were considered among the worst taboos in ancient Greece, So 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:06.520 it's like a story of the guy doing like the worst, 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:10.600 most awful thing you can imagine in order to embarrass 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:13.920 or humiliate the gods, and the gods catch him doing it, 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:17.559 so they send him to this horrible punishment in the afterlife. 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:19.640 And so I do think it's kind of telling that 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:22.280 this is a guy who does like the worst thing 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:26.360 you could possibly imagine doing in in ancient Greek ideas 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:30.360 like that, he commits the worst violent taboos, killing his 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:33.880 own son and trying to get the gods to commit cannibalism. 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:36.720 And what what is the punishment for that? It's eternal 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:42.840 unsatiable hunger and thirst. Yeah, yeah, there's this. There's something 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:46.920 about thirst, especially that it's just so it's so primal 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:49.040 and it's uh, and it's this thing that can just 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:54.680 crescendo towards madness and of course death. Um. So we 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:58.040 we we find numerous accounts where the gods become involved 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:03.360 with human thirst. Um. There's an interesting story in Hindu traditions. 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:07.280 This one appears in the Mahaparata. It's about a desert 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:12.319 dwelling sage by the name of utanka Uh and Utankah 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:15.760 is Uh. There are various accounts of you know, of 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:18.680 what he got up to, but there's basically one of 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:21.439 the key ideas here is that he was witnessed to 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:25.240 Krishno's universal form. So this is the same universal form 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:28.040 that shown to Argina during the famous uh you know, 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:31.840 now I am become death encounter. Oh yeah, okay. But 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:35.640 with Utanka, he's given a special divine boone. Uh. So 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:40.000 he's told whenever he feels thirst, his thirst will be quenched. 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:44.720 Um So. You also there's this idea that he's followed 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:48.000 by by rain clouds even in the desert, and so 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:53.080 sometimes uh you'll see these clouds in real life referred 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:58.560 to as Utanka's clouds. Um So, the clouds sent by 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:02.200 the gods to follow him around ound. And there's another 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:05.400 story to that involves him him thirsting and the thirst 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:08.960 being quenched uh and but water being sent to him 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:13.320 via a member of a lesser cast, a lower cast, 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:16.719 and and then he refuses. As it turns out the 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:20.360 water in question was going to be uh the potion 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:23.120 of immortality, but he was not ready to receive it 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:25.760 spiritually because he was not willing to accept it from 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:29.720 this individual. M hmm. Coming back to the earlier detail 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:33.120 in this where Utanka has given the boon that whenever 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:36.080 he is thirsty, his thirst will be quenched. I wonder 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:40.080 what is the what is the more specific imagination of 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:44.320 that scenario, like that that water will appear somehow for 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:47.760 him to drink, or that there's a kind of quinching 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:50.280 without water, in which case it kind of makes you think, 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:54.320 what is quinching? Because that when I think of the 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:57.720 feeling of quenching thirst, it is specifically the feeling of 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:03.120 like water filling your mouth and going down your throat. Yeah, yeah, 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:06.160 the it's not just the idea that we're going to 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:09.560 suddenly feel magically, I'll go across. How would that happen? Right? 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:11.120 You can't just turn it off with a switch. Our 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:14.560 our one our primary means of alleviating thirst is to 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:17.600 drink water. And therefore, you know, it's hard to disconnect 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:19.480 the too well. Actually, one of the some of the 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:21.040 studies I want to talk about as we go on 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:23.720 in this series have to do with the what is 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:27.560 the relationship between the feeling of thirst quenching and the 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:29.760 hydration of the body. It's not as direct as you 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:35.400 might think. Now, another example of supernatural thirst, and in 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:38.520 this case also hunger um. Of course, you have in 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:42.720 verious Eastern traditions, you have hungry ghosts and the the 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:45.280 gaki are a type of hungry ghost in the tradition 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:50.320 of Japan, also described as as always hungry and always thirsty, 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:53.440 just monsters of torments, so that have huge bellies, be 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:57.120 steel heads, talents, and so forth. And their home is 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:01.000 the barren wasteland realm of Gakito, and they sometimes dragged 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:03.600 the dying to hell, but they can be driven out 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:07.280 through ceremonies. I think that they also are often illustrated 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:10.320 as having very narrow necks, so it's like their hunger 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:14.320 there is great, their belly is great, their neck is narrow, 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:17.320 like their their throat is narrow. Their ability to quench uh, 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:22.400 their their bodily hunger and thirst is entirely insufficient. Of course, 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:26.400 how hungry ghosts are, you know, widespread again in Eastern traditions. 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:29.640 But but I ran across an interesting tradition from pre 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:33.120 Islamic Arab culture that I'd never heard of before that 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:36.400 I thought was really interesting, and it concerns owls. I 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:39.400 was reading Echoes of a Thirsty Owl by T. M. L. 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.960 Hammer and published in the Journal of Near Eastern Studies 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:46.960 from so The author here writes that there was an 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:50.080 idea you know again in the pre Islamic Arab cultures 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:53.680 that the soul of a bird was quote unquote spread 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:56.360 out through the body of a human being, and when 0:15:56.400 --> 0:16:00.720 the human died, um, the resulting birds are called the 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:04.119 body and cried out over the grave of the deceased. 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:07.040 So the and then in time this bird grows and 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:10.640 it becomes a savage and shrieking owl, and the owl, 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:14.360 of course haunts the places of death. Well that almost 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:17.120 makes me wonder. I mean, I think about the spooky 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:20.040 movie trope of having an owl hooting in the darkness 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:22.640 in the graveyard. But I don't know. The more I 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:25.040 think about that, that's probably a coincidence. Well, I mean, 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:29.600 owls are are are are associated with with death and 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:33.160 and the supernatural throughout various cultures. You know, because they're 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:37.000 they're creatures of the night. They fly so silently that 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:39.840 it's almost like they're not even there. Um, you know, 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:43.400 they have those large eyes, their their their head appears 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:48.360 to have various kind of humanoid qualities. Uh So, you know, 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.080 I think there is some connection there, maybe not not 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:54.520 a direct connection, about a connection via the the the 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:58.560 widespread associations and various cultures between the owl and the 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:02.760 and the dead, and also the various omens. You know, 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:06.240 sometimes in different cultures the owl is a is a 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:08.960 dire omen to behold. Well, I guess this would depend 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:11.600 on the owl species, but also their vocalizations have to 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:14.960 play a role in in spooky associations. Yeah, yeah, and 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:16.960 I think and also I mean, sometimes owls don't make 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:19.000 a sound at all. Again, either they're flying silently or 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:23.000 they're just sitting there silently, just kind of watching, and 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:26.800 so uh may be connected to that. That that that 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:29.440 it's also said that these owls may also just sort 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:31.879 of check in on sons and grandsons to see what 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:36.159 happens after they have died. Other traditions say that the 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:39.600 owl returned to the grave once every century. And then 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:42.760 there's this idea that in the event that the deceased 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:46.000 might seek vengeance for something or another, the grave of 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:49.159 the dead should be watered to quote slake the thirst 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:52.240 of the dead. Oh wow, yeah, now, of course, and 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:54.720 this we're probably getting into that. You know something we 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:57.320 we hinted out already, the idea that that thirst takes 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:00.919 on so many different forms, and the water quenches the thirst, 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:02.600 or the liquid the quenches that thirst takes on so 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:06.160 many different forms in our traditions. Like is thirst. Uh, 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:09.200 thirst is of course something we all feel. It's a 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:13.360 you know, we all need water. But depending on how 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:16.000 it's written up, you could you can describe thirst as 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:18.480 a as a as a need, or as a desire, 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:22.120 as something that your will has the ability to overcome 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:26.280 or not overcome. Uh. You know, thirst can be uh 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:29.720 portrayed as something positive, like the thirst for knowledge, the 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:34.600 thirst for for for for God. But also thirst can 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:37.239 be seen as like the thirst for for wine, or 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:40.280 for blood or for vengeance. Well, yeah, exactly. So I 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:43.280 was also thinking about the abstract metaphors of thirst that 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:47.639 we use um and what it means to to choose 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:50.600 that word, in particular, to to say that you want 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:53.359 something by saying that you thirst for it. So, in 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:56.760 the example of someone who has a thirst for vengeance, 0:18:56.800 --> 0:19:00.520 how is that different from just wanting vengeance? To me? 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:04.440 At least in that case, thirst as a metaphor, as 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:08.919 a metaphor for want, implies a kind of irrational desperation 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:12.359 in the in the acquisition behavior, something that will be 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:17.200 sought without hindrance and without reason. Now, obviously that wouldn't 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:20.600 exactly apply to other metaphorical uses of thirst, like you 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:24.720 said the thirst for knowledge. But again that that word 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:27.320 choice seems to me to imply something different than somebody 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:31.800 just saying somebody likes knowledge or seeks knowledge. It suggests 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:35.800 a kind of primal need. I guess, yeah, And I 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:37.720 guess you also have to factor in that. You know, 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:40.440 for a lot of us, we live in in very 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:47.720 water rich environments and water rich cultures and uh socioeconomic places. 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:51.399 So you know, we we we don't feel true thirst 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:53.920 for the most part. You know, we don't. We don't 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:58.720 feel the thirst that is approaching madness and death, um 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:01.199 and the and and then again it comes down to, 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:02.920 like what is the person thirsting for? If you're talking 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:07.080 about somebody feeling a mighty thirst, but you're alluding to 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:10.440 their desire to have an alcoholic beverage, like that's that's 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:12.640 a slightly different thing that just talking about Oh well, 0:20:12.640 --> 0:20:14.800 this is this is thirsty work that they're doing, and 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:16.679 you know, implying that they're just they're just building up 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:21.080 a natural uh need for a big draft of water 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:25.240 to satisfy their thirst. It seems when people use thirst 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:29.159 to talk about alcohol. I always detect an air of 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:31.680 of irony, and that just like it's supposed to be 0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:33.800 a little bit funny that you're using it that way, 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:37.720 right because if you're truly thirsty, alcohol is not what 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:41.560 you should be using right now. Just to come back 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:45.480 to the the idea of these owls briefly, apparently some 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:49.119 writings say that the blood and the brain in the 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:52.639 in the deceased fused together after death to form the owl. 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:56.160 Others would say that it was born of one's bones 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:59.359 and that the owl would then erupt from the head, 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:05.080 which I think is a wonderful and horrifying supernatural uh picture. 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:08.359 But it was a reference in a number of different 0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:13.160 poems um by a lot of pre Islamic Arab poets. 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:17.560 The Arabic poet Alan Bari wrote, quote and it is 0:21:17.600 --> 0:21:20.320 said that man, when he has killed and his revenge 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:23.359 is not taken, an owl comes out of his grave 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:28.160 and then continues screeching, quench me, quench me, continuing so 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:32.520 until his killer is killed. Anyway, that that article is 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:36.640 titled Echoes of a thirsty owl um. If anyone's interested, 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:39.040 I recommend reading that. He also compared, you know, compares 0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:42.520 it to various other traditions concerning the owl as some 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:45.359 sort of a supernatural being. He talks a little bit 0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:49.119 about about the role of the owl and Greek mythology 0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:58.440 and so forth. Now we we can't very well cover 0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:01.439 a complete cultural history if him and thirst here, but 0:22:01.600 --> 0:22:03.560 it is worth thro having him that thirst is an 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:08.280 important aspect of history and civilization UM, in in obvious 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:10.800 ways and maybe sometimes in less obvious ways. I was 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:15.399 reading a article in the Journal of European Archaeology by 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:19.960 uh Slavamil Vehicle titled the Archaeology of Thirst, and in 0:22:20.040 --> 0:22:23.960 it the author points out that naturally, the human satisfaction 0:22:24.000 --> 0:22:26.760 of thirst is an essential part of the human experience, 0:22:27.200 --> 0:22:30.440 and it's a it's of course of great interest in archaeology, 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:33.439 but a number of obstacles have to be overcome. So 0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:36.400 first of all, you just have the volatile nature of liquids. 0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:40.320 You also have the scant chemical signatures to be found 0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:46.440 inside ancient drinking vessels UM, also scarce paleo botanical analysis 0:22:46.480 --> 0:22:51.439 of those residues. UM. They also mentioned quote the functionally 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:55.280 unspecific nature of most vessels, which I thought was interesting, 0:22:55.320 --> 0:23:00.439 reminding me of our our holiday discussion of leg shaped vessels. Yeah, 0:23:00.800 --> 0:23:02.760 it's a hard. A lot of times people are like, 0:23:02.800 --> 0:23:05.080 I don't know what people would put in this leg. Yeah, 0:23:05.240 --> 0:23:07.600 like we can assume they would put oil in it, 0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:09.639