1 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're 3 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: out this week, so we're bringing you some episodes from 4 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: the vault. This is part one of our series on thirst. 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: Thirst like you feel in your throat and throughout your body. 6 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: It's when you need something to drink thirst. Uh. This 7 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: episode originally published on February one. I hope you enjoy 8 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 9 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey are you welcome to Stuff to Blow 10 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: your Mind? My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, 11 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: And today I wanted to start off with a short 12 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:51,840 Speaker 1: reading of a few lines from the Odyssey that will 13 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: introduce the subject we're getting into for the next few episodes. 14 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: So this is from the Odyssey book eleven. I'm gonna 15 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: be reading from the m. Lee Wilson translation. But this 16 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,919 Speaker 1: is a section of the story where Odysseus is describing 17 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: the horrors that he witnessed in Hades, and and there 18 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: are different kinds of horrors, Like some of the horror 19 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: of Hades is just a kind of profound, depressing disappointment 20 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: with when he's confronted with the reality of how crappy 21 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: it is to be dead, you know that, Like he 22 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: he tries to talk to Ajax, and Ajax can't even 23 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: really say anything. But then there's this other section where 24 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: he starts seeing more Dante in Inferno, kind of horrors 25 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: of actual tortures, and so he sees King Minos, he 26 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: sees a Ryan, he sees Sisyphus famously, you know, in 27 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: the futile labor of pushing the boulder up a hill, 28 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: longing to see it rolled down again. But eventually he 29 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: comes to a figure called Tantalus. And then here's what 30 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: Odysseus says about Tantalus. I saw the pain of Tantalus 31 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: in water to his chin so parched, no way to drink. 32 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: When that old man bent down towards the water, it 33 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 1: was gone. Some god had dried it up. And at 34 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: his feet dark earth appeared, tall leafy trees hung fruit 35 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: above his head, sweet figs and pomegranates, and brightly shining 36 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 1: apples and ripe olives. But when he grasped them with 37 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: his hands, the wind hurled them away towards the shadowy 38 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 1: clouds now. When I look at the contraposition. Of the 39 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: two tortures of Tantalus, You've got the one. You know, 40 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:31,519 Speaker 1: he always wants to reach up to get the delicious 41 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: fruit from the tree, but the wind kicks up, it 42 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: pulls it out from his hands, and he can't ever 43 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: get the food. That's a that's a a torture in 44 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: Tartarus by starvation, which is not good. Obviously, starvation is 45 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,799 Speaker 1: very bad. And it's probably more expressively phrase the second 46 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 1: half of this, uh, the situation, but it's actually the 47 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 1: first half that fills me with more horror when it 48 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: talks about how he's he's standing in water, so it's like, 49 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: you know, he feels it lapping around on his skin, 50 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:01,839 Speaker 1: but every time he tries to kneel down to put 51 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: his face to it to get a drink, the water 52 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: just is pulled away, as if by a tide. The 53 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: gods dry it up away from his mouth, and he 54 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: can't ever have a drink. To me, that's the more 55 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 1: terrifying half of this situation. Yeah, yeah, I love the 56 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: image of Tantalus. Is this um this being that is uh, 57 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: It's he's like he's suspended between his desires, between his 58 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: needs needs or desires, depending on how you want to 59 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: frame it here, right, Well, I guess this raises questions 60 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: about the the biology of your shade in hades or tartarus, 61 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: Like does it actually need to eat and drink and 62 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: he can't get it? Or is this just some kind 63 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: of I don't know, psychological need his soul has that's 64 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: not really biological. I guess yeah, given what we we 65 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: we believe about the underworld the other myth cycles, I 66 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: guess it's the idea that he doesn't actually need the 67 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: fruit or the water to live, if you call this living. 68 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: He's forever suspended in the state of of on death 69 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: and on life. Um, but but wants to have the water, 70 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: wants to have the fruit. Maybe that's the kind of 71 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: question you're not actually supposed to bother thinking about this, 72 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: like the annoying pedantic question that Plato would bring up. Yeah, 73 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: I mean well, Speaking of of philosophy, there is the 74 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: concept of Burden's ass named for fourteenth century French philosopher 75 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: gen Burden. This one. This is a basic idea that 76 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 1: also pops up in the works of Aristotle and uh 77 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: al Gazali various other writers. The more common thirst related 78 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 1: version is if you have a donkey that is both 79 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: hungry and thirsty and placed equal distance from both food 80 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: and water, it will remain immobile and die. Now, this 81 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 1: may be apart from the lesson that the the thought 82 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 1: experiment is trying to produce, but I think that's not 83 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: necessarily true. I think there might very well be biological 84 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: priorities that would place access to water above access to food. Yeah, 85 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: it's it's one of the paradoxes that maybe doesn't You 86 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 1: can't exactly recreate it in reality and expect it to 87 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 1: be quite as a captivating but uh, abstractly it's it's 88 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: kind of fascinating. So as Aristotle put it, quote, a 89 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: man being just as hungry as thirsty and placed in 90 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: between food and drink must necessarily remain where he is 91 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: and starve to death. So obviously that's not going to 92 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 1: be the case. If you're hungry and thirsty and the 93 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 1: waiter brings you your sandwich and your your cola at 94 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: the same time, you're not gonna die. You don't have 95 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 1: to give the waiter special instructions. You will. You worked 96 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: in restaurant industry, Joe. This is not like they don't 97 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: tell you this, right, They don't say look, don't put 98 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: the drink in the food in front of the customer 99 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: at the same time, or they will they will just 100 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: remain immobile and die. It is actually broadly considered very 101 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: important in restaurants to get people their drinks before you 102 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: get them their food. If you bring them food before 103 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: they get their drinks, people will get very confused and upset. Well, 104 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 1: and uh, I know, I I often hear you know, 105 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: when you're a lot of times when you're hungry, you're 106 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 1: actually thirsty, and therefore, to avoid and prevent overeating, you 107 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: want to make sure you have plenty of liquids as well. 108 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: So yeah, like, if I'm going into a restaurant situation, 109 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: I definitely want my water first because I feel like 110 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna have a more balanced experience eating 111 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 1: lunch or dinner there, you'll certainly have a more pleasant experience. 112 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: Though actually sorry, I'm just introducing exceptions to every single 113 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: thing we say so far. But this does come up 114 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 1: in a paper that I want to look at later. 115 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: There is a concept that's been documented widely in animal 116 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: biology known as dehydration and do standardrexia, which is essentially 117 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: the idea that many animals species. Certainly humans and rodents 118 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: will naturally restrict their own food intake in response to dehydration. Again, 119 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: there are some exceptions, some animals like get their water 120 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: entirely from food and so forth. But but but typically, 121 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: like if you get rodents and and they're thirsty, they 122 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 1: will eat less at each meal you give them, not 123 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 1: saying that's a way to live your life, though, I 124 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: mean better to be hydrated. Well, you know, coming back 125 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: to mythology a bit, I thought we might mention just 126 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: a few other you know, bits of myth and folklore 127 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: and legend and so forth concerning thirst. Uh, because I 128 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: feel like, you know, we we have the sort of 129 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: mythological echoes of the basic biological reality, and maybe these 130 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: can help and inform and shape our conversation as we 131 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: move forward. So there's one particular story I was taken 132 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: with from from from ancient China. It's an ancient story 133 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: dating back at least as far as the shan Haijing. 134 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: This is the the Fabulous Book of Monsters that we 135 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: we did an episode, did a couple episodes on I 136 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: think last year, and have recently or will be rerunning 137 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: those episodes very soon. I think the title is sometimes 138 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: translated as the Classic of the Mountains and Seas. Yeah. 139 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: So there's a lot of a lot of mythological beings 140 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: and places mentioned in the book Um and Uh, and 141 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: there's there is this account of Kuafu. It's a it's 142 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: a it's a story that continues to be told today 143 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: in modern China, and there have been many versions of it. 144 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: According to Yang and and Turner. In Chinese mythology, basically, 145 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: what you have in Kuofu is this primordial giant with 146 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: two yellow snakes circling his ears and two more yellow 147 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: snakes in his hands. And he's powerful, very powerful, certainly, 148 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: but he overestimates his own power, and depending on the 149 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:38,439 Speaker 1: story and the exact telling, he either challenges the Sun 150 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: to a race, or he just wants to chase the 151 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,079 Speaker 1: Sun's shadow and catch the Sun. I've also read a 152 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: version where he wants to prolong the day by catching 153 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: the sun, Like if I can just get my hands 154 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: on the Sun and then it can't move away, it 155 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: can't set, the day will never end. Oh that's a 156 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: good plan. Yeah, Well, either way it works out. This 157 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: giant runs after the Sun, intending to catch it um, 158 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: but the Sun stays just ever out of his grasp, 159 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: and what happens, well, he grows ever thirstier. So eventually 160 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 1: he just has to stop for a second and he 161 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,559 Speaker 1: drinks the Yellow river. Um. Then he stops and he 162 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: drinks drinks another river. But he's still so thirsty that 163 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 1: he heads for the Great Marsh to the north. But 164 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: on the way there he collapses. He dies of thirst. 165 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: And this is one of those stories that is often 166 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: used to explain geography. So they are different, all these 167 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: different details about what happens to his body once he falls, 168 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: what happens to his walking stick um or his club 169 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: once it falls, what happens to the dirt from his sandals, 170 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: you know, they become foothills, that kind of thing. But 171 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 1: it's also a tale about just overreaching. And so the 172 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: idea of of this giant chasing the sun is the 173 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: idea that yeah, he's powerful, but he thinks he's more 174 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: powerful than he is, and it's going to get him 175 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,199 Speaker 1: into trouble. Oh that's interesting because to bring it back 176 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: to Tantalus, I mean, it's somewhat different, but both stories 177 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: have the The problem with the character is that they're 178 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: in some way brazen or over audacious in their challenging 179 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: of celestial figures or gods because the While there are 180 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 1: multiple stories of what Tantalus did in order to deserve 181 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,079 Speaker 1: this punishment in tartarus Um, but one of the most 182 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: commonly received stories is that Tantalus well. So it's often 183 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,959 Speaker 1: said that Tantalus, like uh, shared a table with the gods, 184 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: so he was a king, but he'd be invited up 185 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: to Olympus to to dine with Zeus. And apparently at 186 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: some point Tantalus was serving a banquet to the gods 187 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: and as the main course, for some reason, he decided 188 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 1: to kill and serve his own son. So he liked, yeah, 189 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 1: that's that's that's a bad choice. So he yeah, he 190 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: boils his own son, serves his meat to the gods. Uh. 191 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: It's like this horrible samelier competition, like can you tell 192 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: this is my son you're eating? And the gods can 193 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: tell they are good semeliers, so they figure it out 194 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: and uh. And apparently cannibalism and the kill of ken 195 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: were considered among the worst taboos in ancient Greece, So 196 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: it's like a story of the guy doing like the worst, 197 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: most awful thing you can imagine in order to embarrass 198 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: or humiliate the gods, and the gods catch him doing it, 199 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:17,559 Speaker 1: so they send him to this horrible punishment in the afterlife. 200 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: And so I do think it's kind of telling that 201 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: this is a guy who does like the worst thing 202 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: you could possibly imagine doing in in ancient Greek ideas 203 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: like that, he commits the worst violent taboos, killing his 204 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: own son and trying to get the gods to commit cannibalism. 205 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: And what what is the punishment for that? It's eternal 206 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: unsatiable hunger and thirst. Yeah, yeah, there's this. There's something 207 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: about thirst, especially that it's just so it's so primal 208 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: and it's uh, and it's this thing that can just 209 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: crescendo towards madness and of course death. Um. So we 210 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: we we find numerous accounts where the gods become involved 211 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: with human thirst. Um. There's an interesting story in Hindu traditions. 212 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: This one appears in the Mahaparata. It's about a desert 213 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:12,319 Speaker 1: dwelling sage by the name of utanka Uh and Utankah 214 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: is Uh. There are various accounts of you know, of 215 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 1: what he got up to, but there's basically one of 216 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,439 Speaker 1: the key ideas here is that he was witnessed to 217 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: Krishno's universal form. So this is the same universal form 218 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: that shown to Argina during the famous uh you know, 219 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: now I am become death encounter. Oh yeah, okay. But 220 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: with Utanka, he's given a special divine boone. Uh. So 221 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: he's told whenever he feels thirst, his thirst will be quenched. 222 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 1: Um So. You also there's this idea that he's followed 223 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: by by rain clouds even in the desert, and so 224 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: sometimes uh you'll see these clouds in real life referred 225 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 1: to as Utanka's clouds. Um So, the clouds sent by 226 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: the gods to follow him around ound. And there's another 227 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: story to that involves him him thirsting and the thirst 228 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: being quenched uh and but water being sent to him 229 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 1: via a member of a lesser cast, a lower cast, 230 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,719 Speaker 1: and and then he refuses. As it turns out the 231 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: water in question was going to be uh the potion 232 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: of immortality, but he was not ready to receive it 233 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: spiritually because he was not willing to accept it from 234 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 1: this individual. M hmm. Coming back to the earlier detail 235 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: in this where Utanka has given the boon that whenever 236 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: he is thirsty, his thirst will be quenched. I wonder 237 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: what is the what is the more specific imagination of 238 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 1: that scenario, like that that water will appear somehow for 239 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: him to drink, or that there's a kind of quinching 240 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: without water, in which case it kind of makes you think, 241 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 1: what is quinching? Because that when I think of the 242 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: feeling of quenching thirst, it is specifically the feeling of 243 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: like water filling your mouth and going down your throat. Yeah, yeah, 244 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: the it's not just the idea that we're going to 245 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: suddenly feel magically, I'll go across. How would that happen? Right? 246 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: You can't just turn it off with a switch. Our 247 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: our one our primary means of alleviating thirst is to 248 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: drink water. And therefore, you know, it's hard to disconnect 249 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: the too well. Actually, one of the some of the 250 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: studies I want to talk about as we go on 251 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: in this series have to do with the what is 252 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: the relationship between the feeling of thirst quenching and the 253 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: hydration of the body. It's not as direct as you 254 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: might think. Now, another example of supernatural thirst, and in 255 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: this case also hunger um. Of course, you have in 256 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: verious Eastern traditions, you have hungry ghosts and the the 257 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: gaki are a type of hungry ghost in the tradition 258 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: of Japan, also described as as always hungry and always thirsty, 259 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: just monsters of torments, so that have huge bellies, be 260 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: steel heads, talents, and so forth. And their home is 261 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: the barren wasteland realm of Gakito, and they sometimes dragged 262 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: the dying to hell, but they can be driven out 263 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: through ceremonies. I think that they also are often illustrated 264 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: as having very narrow necks, so it's like their hunger 265 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: there is great, their belly is great, their neck is narrow, 266 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: like their their throat is narrow. Their ability to quench uh, 267 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: their their bodily hunger and thirst is entirely insufficient. Of course, 268 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: how hungry ghosts are, you know, widespread again in Eastern traditions. 269 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: But but I ran across an interesting tradition from pre 270 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: Islamic Arab culture that I'd never heard of before that 271 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: I thought was really interesting, and it concerns owls. I 272 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: was reading Echoes of a Thirsty Owl by T. M. L. 273 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: Hammer and published in the Journal of Near Eastern Studies 274 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: from so The author here writes that there was an 275 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: idea you know again in the pre Islamic Arab cultures 276 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: that the soul of a bird was quote unquote spread 277 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: out through the body of a human being, and when 278 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: the human died, um, the resulting birds are called the 279 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,119 Speaker 1: body and cried out over the grave of the deceased. 280 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: So the and then in time this bird grows and 281 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: it becomes a savage and shrieking owl, and the owl, 282 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: of course haunts the places of death. Well that almost 283 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: makes me wonder. I mean, I think about the spooky 284 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: movie trope of having an owl hooting in the darkness 285 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: in the graveyard. But I don't know. The more I 286 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: think about that, that's probably a coincidence. Well, I mean, 287 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: owls are are are are associated with with death and 288 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: and the supernatural throughout various cultures. You know, because they're 289 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: they're creatures of the night. They fly so silently that 290 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: it's almost like they're not even there. Um, you know, 291 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: they have those large eyes, their their their head appears 292 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: to have various kind of humanoid qualities. Uh So, you know, 293 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: I think there is some connection there, maybe not not 294 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: a direct connection, about a connection via the the the 295 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: widespread associations and various cultures between the owl and the 296 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: and the dead, and also the various omens. You know, 297 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: sometimes in different cultures the owl is a is a 298 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: dire omen to behold. Well, I guess this would depend 299 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: on the owl species, but also their vocalizations have to 300 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: play a role in in spooky associations. Yeah, yeah, and 301 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: I think and also I mean, sometimes owls don't make 302 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 1: a sound at all. Again, either they're flying silently or 303 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: they're just sitting there silently, just kind of watching, and 304 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: so uh may be connected to that. That that that 305 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 1: it's also said that these owls may also just sort 306 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 1: of check in on sons and grandsons to see what 307 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 1: happens after they have died. Other traditions say that the 308 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: owl returned to the grave once every century. And then 309 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: there's this idea that in the event that the deceased 310 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: might seek vengeance for something or another, the grave of 311 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 1: the dead should be watered to quote slake the thirst 312 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: of the dead. Oh wow, yeah, now, of course, and 313 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: this we're probably getting into that. You know something we 314 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: we hinted out already, the idea that that thirst takes 315 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 1: on so many different forms, and the water quenches the thirst, 316 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: or the liquid the quenches that thirst takes on so 317 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 1: many different forms in our traditions. Like is thirst. Uh, 318 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 1: thirst is of course something we all feel. It's a 319 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:13,360 Speaker 1: you know, we all need water. But depending on how 320 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: it's written up, you could you can describe thirst as 321 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: a as a as a need, or as a desire, 322 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 1: as something that your will has the ability to overcome 323 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: or not overcome. Uh. You know, thirst can be uh 324 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: portrayed as something positive, like the thirst for knowledge, the 325 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: thirst for for for for God. But also thirst can 326 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:37,239 Speaker 1: be seen as like the thirst for for wine, or 327 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: for blood or for vengeance. Well, yeah, exactly. So I 328 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: was also thinking about the abstract metaphors of thirst that 329 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 1: we use um and what it means to to choose 330 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: that word, in particular, to to say that you want 331 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: something by saying that you thirst for it. So, in 332 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: the example of someone who has a thirst for vengeance, 333 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: how is that different from just wanting vengeance? To me? 334 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 1: At least in that case, thirst as a metaphor, as 335 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: a metaphor for want, implies a kind of irrational desperation 336 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: in the in the acquisition behavior, something that will be 337 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 1: sought without hindrance and without reason. Now, obviously that wouldn't 338 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: exactly apply to other metaphorical uses of thirst, like you 339 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: said the thirst for knowledge. But again that that word 340 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: choice seems to me to imply something different than somebody 341 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: just saying somebody likes knowledge or seeks knowledge. It suggests 342 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: a kind of primal need. I guess, yeah, And I 343 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 1: guess you also have to factor in that. You know, 344 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: for a lot of us, we live in in very 345 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: water rich environments and water rich cultures and uh socioeconomic places. 346 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 1: So you know, we we we don't feel true thirst 347 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 1: for the most part. You know, we don't. We don't 348 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: feel the thirst that is approaching madness and death, um 349 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,199 Speaker 1: and the and and then again it comes down to, 350 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 1: like what is the person thirsting for? If you're talking 351 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: about somebody feeling a mighty thirst, but you're alluding to 352 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 1: their desire to have an alcoholic beverage, like that's that's 353 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 1: a slightly different thing that just talking about Oh well, 354 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: this is this is thirsty work that they're doing, and 355 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:16,679 Speaker 1: you know, implying that they're just they're just building up 356 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: a natural uh need for a big draft of water 357 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 1: to satisfy their thirst. It seems when people use thirst 358 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 1: to talk about alcohol. I always detect an air of 359 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 1: of irony, and that just like it's supposed to be 360 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: a little bit funny that you're using it that way, 361 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: right because if you're truly thirsty, alcohol is not what 362 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: you should be using right now. Just to come back 363 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: to the the idea of these owls briefly, apparently some 364 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 1: writings say that the blood and the brain in the 365 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 1: in the deceased fused together after death to form the owl. 366 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 1: Others would say that it was born of one's bones 367 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: and that the owl would then erupt from the head, 368 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: which I think is a wonderful and horrifying supernatural uh picture. 369 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: But it was a reference in a number of different 370 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 1: poems um by a lot of pre Islamic Arab poets. 371 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: The Arabic poet Alan Bari wrote, quote and it is 372 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: said that man, when he has killed and his revenge 373 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 1: is not taken, an owl comes out of his grave 374 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 1: and then continues screeching, quench me, quench me, continuing so 375 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: until his killer is killed. Anyway, that that article is 376 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:36,640 Speaker 1: titled Echoes of a thirsty owl um. If anyone's interested, 377 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: I recommend reading that. He also compared, you know, compares 378 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: it to various other traditions concerning the owl as some 379 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 1: sort of a supernatural being. He talks a little bit 380 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 1: about about the role of the owl and Greek mythology 381 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 1: and so forth. Now we we can't very well cover 382 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,439 Speaker 1: a complete cultural history if him and thirst here, but 383 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: it is worth thro having him that thirst is an 384 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: important aspect of history and civilization UM, in in obvious 385 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: ways and maybe sometimes in less obvious ways. I was 386 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 1: reading a article in the Journal of European Archaeology by 387 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: uh Slavamil Vehicle titled the Archaeology of Thirst, and in 388 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: it the author points out that naturally, the human satisfaction 389 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: of thirst is an essential part of the human experience, 390 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 1: and it's a it's of course of great interest in archaeology, 391 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,439 Speaker 1: but a number of obstacles have to be overcome. So 392 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,400 Speaker 1: first of all, you just have the volatile nature of liquids. 393 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: You also have the scant chemical signatures to be found 394 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 1: inside ancient drinking vessels UM, also scarce paleo botanical analysis 395 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:51,439 Speaker 1: of those residues. UM. They also mentioned quote the functionally 396 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: unspecific nature of most vessels, which I thought was interesting, 397 00:22:55,320 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 1: reminding me of our our holiday discussion of leg shaped vessels. Yeah, 398 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: it's a hard. A lot of times people are like, 399 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 1: I don't know what people would put in this leg. Yeah, 400 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: like we can assume they would put oil in it, 401 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 1: you know, but it depending on what the vessel is 402 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,400 Speaker 1: and what the culture is, and how much additional information 403 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,399 Speaker 1: we have. We might just have to guess and be like, Okay, 404 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 1: it seems like you might drink out of this, or 405 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: you might just or maybe this is just for storing 406 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 1: some sort of oil. On top of that, we often 407 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: have scant iconographical information. Also, this is a big one, 408 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: and this is this applies to far more than just 409 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 1: drinking vessels. But if the vessel is organic in nature, 410 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: we may not have any uh, surviving examples of what 411 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: it was. And on top of that, by and large, 412 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,919 Speaker 1: we tend to focus on exceptional examples of drinking and 413 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 1: storage vessels, which of course limits study to a very 414 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: slim part of a given culture. You know. So it's 415 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 1: like a highly ornate decorative piece that you know, maybe 416 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: is of the same shape and basic function is what 417 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: people would have in general been using to drink water 418 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 1: or store water, etcetera. But maybe not like maybe it 419 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: is um it's it's more about looking interesting as opposed 420 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,399 Speaker 1: to anything else. But the archaeology of thirst ends up 421 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: encompassing some very ancient examples UM, including things like neolithic wells. Um. 422 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: Water is the most basic means of meeting human thirst, 423 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 1: and it's taken on mundane and fantastic connotations at times. 424 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:26,919 Speaker 1: But on top of this, of course humans have come 425 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: to drink SAPs blood, of course, various concoctions such as 426 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: meat and wine and beer and more. But but I 427 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 1: guess water, you know, water remains the big one. Obviously. 428 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: Another idea worth mentioning in all of this that I 429 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,199 Speaker 1: was reading about UM is the idea that, okay, so 430 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 1: human thirst is of course ubiquitous. Everybody is going to thirst, 431 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 1: everyone needs water UM. And so if you look back 432 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 1: um to to Jewish and Islamic traditions, you you find 433 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 1: in both legal traditions this idea of the right of 434 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: thirst UM. The the idea of being that like every 435 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: every every human government by this law, has this right 436 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: of thirst UH to this right to water via their 437 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: own thirst. And in Islamic law, apparently this extended to 438 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: animals as well. Animals had the right of thirst, which 439 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: gave them meant that they had a right to access 440 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 1: water based on their thirst. But but it's also it's 441 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: interesting how you know this sort of this this foreshadows 442 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: a lot of our our modern relationship with water, the 443 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 1: idea that that the right to water is classified as 444 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: a basic human right by the United Nations. UM. But 445 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: of course, at the same time, uh, not everyone has 446 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: equal access to to water and uh, and this is 447 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,159 Speaker 1: going to continue to be a problem moving forward, and 448 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: of course you can't help. But then take all of 449 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,479 Speaker 1: that and relate it back to our metaphorical treatment of thirst. 450 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: You know, how does the how does that change? You know, 451 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: if you're if you're if you're talking about thirst in 452 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: reference to spiritual needs and um, and you know, a 453 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,360 Speaker 1: thirst for knowledge, Like, how is that different if you're 454 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: if you're expressing that, uh within a you know, in 455 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: a place where there where water is plentiful, where a 456 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,159 Speaker 1: drinking water is plentiful, or a place where access is 457 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,360 Speaker 1: more limited. But I guess before we can answer any 458 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 1: of these questions, we need to back up quite a 459 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: bit and just talk about thirst as a biological reality. 460 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: What is it and how does it work? Yeah, And 461 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: so this was actually rather interesting to me because it 462 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: turns out I knew less about thirst than I realized. 463 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: And uh, and what we do know about thirst and 464 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 1: what we don't know about thirst are both pretty interesting. 465 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: So I was reading an article called just called Thirst 466 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: that was published in Current Biology in sixteen by David E. Leeb, 467 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 1: Christopher A. Zimmerman, and Zachary A. Night. And this article 468 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: is essentially a summary of all the existing research on thirst. 469 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 1: It is, as of the year twenty sixteen, a sort 470 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: of perfect primmer catching everybody up on what do we 471 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,120 Speaker 1: know about Thurston? What do we not know? Now? Before 472 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,439 Speaker 1: we get into the meat of that discussion? I guess, uh, 473 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 1: to to just cover the very basics, Uh, the first 474 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 1: fact before we get into anything else. You are a 475 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,119 Speaker 1: water bag. That that is what we are. That is 476 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:20,919 Speaker 1: what all of us are. We we are not just 477 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: simple water bags, but our bodies are essentially water bags 478 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,919 Speaker 1: over any other material description. All the animal life that 479 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,679 Speaker 1: currently lives on land evolved from creatures that used to 480 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:33,919 Speaker 1: live in the ocean, where you're surrounded by water all 481 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: the time. And when we evolved to live on land, 482 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 1: we had to create essentially bags that would contain water 483 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 1: to take with us. Because all of the of the 484 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: biological chemistry, the biochemistry of life takes place in water, 485 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: in solutions of water, and so as water bags. You know, 486 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: we we are complex autonomous water bags. But most of 487 00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:01,479 Speaker 1: those complex autonomous activities actually re wire that there be 488 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: a fairly precise amount of water in the bag and 489 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: a fairly precise concentration of various substances things like sodium 490 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 1: for instance, that pretty precise amounts be dissolved in the 491 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: water in the bag, and so various processes of life 492 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: are constantly leading to water coming in and out of 493 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: the bag. So there there are several common routes of 494 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: water to be added to the bag. Were familiar with 495 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,199 Speaker 1: the most common of those, which is drinking fluid, drinking 496 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: water or or fluids that are mainly water, or eating 497 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: food with water content. And that the second one, they're 498 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: eating food with water content, is less prominent for humans 499 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: because you know, we typically drink a glass of water 500 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: with food or between meals or whatever. But there are 501 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: some animals that that basically get almost all of their 502 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: water from their food. Yeah, this includes certain desert species 503 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: such as the kangaroo rat and the kangaroo mouse, which, 504 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,959 Speaker 1: of course, on the planet Iracus becomes the the the 505 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: the mouse. Deep. Um. We also have things like the 506 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: sand cat, the sand gazelle. Um, and uh, I know, 507 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: just in my household, it also seems to include my cat, 508 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: who does not seem to drink water at all anymore. Um. 509 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: We we have to lean heavily on moist foods to 510 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: get to get her her liquids, so feeding her wet food, 511 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: adding a little bit of water like sneaking it into 512 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: the wet food. And yet if we make the wet 513 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: food too wet, she will say, no, it's too much 514 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: like water. I will not have it, And then we 515 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: put out water for We've tried the fountains, we've tried everything. 516 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: The only thing she ever actually drank out of was 517 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 1: a fish tank when we had a fish tank, and 518 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: then she would not stop drinking out of the fish tank. 519 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: But any other thing we've tried, she hasn't gone for. 520 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 1: And so when she's had some issues before, it's like, 521 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: you know, she's clearly dehydrated. In the past, we even 522 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: had to I had to use an ivy to give 523 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: her the water. So we we still have a whole 524 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: bunch of bags of fluid around in case she has 525 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 1: any any flare ups. Of her issues, but in terms 526 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: of just like drinking straight water, she's not interested at all. Wow. Well, 527 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: simultaneously that is kind of fascinating, But also I feel 528 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: for her and I feel for you guys that that's 529 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 1: very frustrating. Now we're weird. I mean, everybody seems to 530 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: be at a comfortable level right now. She's she seems 531 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: to be getting all the liquid she needs through her 532 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: her meat paste. But but it's it's weird with cats 533 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: because yeah, I think some people have this experience with 534 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 1: with cats where they really have to be tricked into 535 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: drinking water, but others will just drink it on the 536 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,239 Speaker 1: fly out of toilets or dripping faucets and so forth. Right, 537 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 1: So all of that is direct water acquisitions. Of course, 538 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: you get water from drinking water. You get some smaller 539 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: amount of water from eating food that contains water. But 540 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: then apparently there's there's a secondary route for water acquisition 541 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: by eating food through what's known as metabolic water, which 542 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: is in your metabolism oxidizes various energy containing substances that 543 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: you eat and produces water in the process. So some 544 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: water is created at the molecular level by your metabolism, 545 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: and there are some organisms that get a large amount 546 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 1: of their their water content from metabolic water. Humans only 547 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: get a very small amount from it. But yeah, I 548 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: mean I think like some desert dwelling organisms and some 549 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 1: birds and stuff get get all or almost all of 550 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: their water by by chemical reactions that happen inside their 551 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: body after they eat food and turn parts of that 552 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: food into water molecules. Now, one of the interesting things 553 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: I was reading about some of these desert species um 554 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: and at least with some of them. You know, if 555 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: they're in a captivity and they are offered water, well, 556 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: then when they they theirst builds up, they will drink 557 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: the water. So it's not it's not like everything. I 558 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: don't want to imply that anything out there that gets 559 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: most of its water through its meat is going to 560 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: be like my cat and just refused to drink water. 561 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: You know, she has her own issues going on. Yeah, 562 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: I'm sure that varies by organism. Okay, but those are 563 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: the routes in you've got directly through drinking and eating 564 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: and then secondarily through metabolism. But then you've got a 565 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: number of routes for water to be to be eliminated, 566 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: So you've got urination of course, and then you've got 567 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 1: lost through defecation. You've got evaporation through the lungs of 568 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: people sometimes don't think about this, but you lose water 569 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: when you exhale water, vapor comes out of your mouth 570 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: or out of your nose, and then there is also 571 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 1: evaporative loss of water through the skins just through sweating, 572 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: so uh, and then other other more minor things. I mean, 573 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: obviously some extremely tiny amount of water evaporates off of 574 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: the liquid on the surface of your eyes and so forth, 575 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: but but those are the big ones. The defication is 576 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: worth mentioning, probably stressing again because I think most people 577 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: are probably familiar with this. But obviously if one is 578 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: in a UH, is suffering from a condition the results 579 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: in you know, um um diarrhea or um, you knows, 580 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: some sort of dysentery situation. You end up losing more 581 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: and more water through defecation, and therefore you have to 582 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,479 Speaker 1: make sure you're drinking more and more water to make 583 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: up for that water loss. Also, just a reminder out 584 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: anyone out there, a well fitted and well manufactured still 585 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: suit will collect all of this as it leaves your body. UH. 586 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: All the routes out will be covered and you'll lose 587 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: no more than a thimble's worth of water per day. 588 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: We've gotta stress well fitted though. You get the still 589 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:33,959 Speaker 1: suit on there, you're gonna have all kinds of gaps 590 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: and things not working right. That's right. You don't know 591 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: how to work the straps and you're not you don't 592 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: have that forehead piece on correctly. It's just not gonna 593 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 1: work um at an optimal level than right. Well, anyway, 594 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: I want to come back to some of the findings 595 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: that are summarized in that current biology paper by leave 596 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 1: at all that I mentioned earlier than again, this is 597 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: from so there will be more research that we get 598 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: into from after that adds to some of these findings. 599 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: But this is where we were when this when this 600 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 1: good summary came out. So in the human body, the 601 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:16,800 Speaker 1: brain monitors the body's water content, and when certain thresholds 602 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 1: are reached in the that information monitoring system, it motivates 603 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: the body to drink fluids. Of course, it's not only 604 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: the decrease of fluid volume in the body that makes 605 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: us thirsty. One of the most important things to understand 606 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 1: in the maintenance of the body's water content is the 607 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: importance of something known as OSMO reality. That's O s 608 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: M O L A l I T Y. This is 609 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:47,360 Speaker 1: the concentration of various particles such as electrolytes like sodium, 610 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,959 Speaker 1: that are dissolved in the body's water content. And you'll 611 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 1: you'll see this often described as blood OSMO reality. It's 612 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 1: basically functionally the same thing. The liquid part of our 613 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:03,879 Speaker 1: blood plasma is roughly water, So when people talk about 614 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,839 Speaker 1: blood OSM reality, they're talking about OSM reality of the 615 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:11,759 Speaker 1: body's water content. The brain is actually incredibly sensitive to 616 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 1: changes in blood OSM reality. An increase in just one 617 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: percent of of the blood osmality can cause an animal 618 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: to feel thirst and the author's right quote. This sensation, 619 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 1: in turn is sufficient to orient and energize all of 620 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: an animal's actions towards the goal of finding and consuming water. Thus, 621 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 1: the study of thirst is the study of how the 622 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: brain performs this remarkable transformation, such that small changes in 623 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,879 Speaker 1: the composition of the blood become a potent and specific 624 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 1: motivational drive. Uh And and the more I thought about that, 625 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 1: the more interesting it became that essentially just sort of 626 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,839 Speaker 1: eating a small amount of salt, for example, is enough 627 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 1: to to motivate my brain to change all of my 628 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 1: behavior because my osmolality goes up, the salt dissolved in 629 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 1: my body's water content increases. In order to balance that out, 630 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 1: my body wants me to go get some more water 631 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,399 Speaker 1: to drink, and that I will interrupt whatever I'm doing 632 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 1: to go do it. And we and we did not 633 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: even really think about this. We don't think, oh, now 634 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: my body has need of water, I must go get it. 635 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: It's just like, it's just what you do. Yeah. Like 636 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: I mean, right here, as we're recording, and I have 637 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 1: a big thermis of water and I just end up 638 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 1: casually sipping on it the whole time. Yeah. Same here. 639 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,399 Speaker 1: I always get a nice big glass of water before 640 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 1: we start recording. But but the question would be, why 641 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: are our bodies so sensitive to these tiny changes in 642 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:42,400 Speaker 1: osmolality in the amount of of osmolites dissolved in the blood. 643 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: Why would like a one percent increase in salt concentration 644 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: really cause that much of a problem. Well, the authors 645 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,399 Speaker 1: offer some explanations. They say, first of all, you've got 646 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: this thing in your body known as the electrochemical gradient. 647 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 1: The cells in our bodies are selectively permeable to specific ions. 648 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: Quote resulting in an electrochemical gradient across the plasma membrane 649 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: that is exploited for numerous cellular functions. So this means 650 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: that there's a difference in the electrical charge and the 651 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: concentration of various chemicals on opposite sides of the membrane 652 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 1: that surrounds each of our cells, and the difference or 653 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,279 Speaker 1: the gradient here, the fact that it's different on each 654 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,360 Speaker 1: side of the membrane is what permits the transportation of 655 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 1: ions across the membrane so that cells can do things, 656 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 1: so that they can send and receive things. So if 657 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,879 Speaker 1: you change your blood osmolality, you say, increase the concentration 658 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,880 Speaker 1: of salt in the body's water content, You change this gradient, 659 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,360 Speaker 1: and you change the water contents inside cells, and you 660 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 1: quote degrade normal cellular function. Now, I was trying to 661 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 1: think of a rough analogy, and here's what I came 662 00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,440 Speaker 1: up with. This may be very rough, but it's my 663 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,240 Speaker 1: best attempt. So when you change your blood osmolality away 664 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 1: from its ideal, I would say your body sort of 665 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:10,799 Speaker 1: becomes like a city that starts having system wide problems 666 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: opening and closing doors. Now, is the problems opening and 667 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,360 Speaker 1: closing doors of all kinds throughout a city get worse. Eventually, 668 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,759 Speaker 1: this would just cause myriad diverse problems throughout the city. Uh, 669 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 1: much like it would in your body. Well that did 670 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 1: that just sounds like chaos. That just sounds like like 671 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,359 Speaker 1: all order is falling out out the window, right. And 672 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 1: you can actually see that the represent visual representation of 673 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: that chaos in a chart that the authors include in 674 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: their paper, where it shows what the typical symptoms are 675 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: as the blood osmolality goes too far above or below 676 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,799 Speaker 1: what it's supposed to be. Uh and uh. Basically on 677 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:52,799 Speaker 1: both sides, it's sort of a mirror image with a 678 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,480 Speaker 1: few differences. So you've got the normal range, but then 679 00:38:55,520 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 1: you start getting away from it, you get things like irritability, lethargy, aussia, 680 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: a taxia, trembling, hypothermia, and then in both cases you 681 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,719 Speaker 1: end up in the seizures and death territory. So yeah, 682 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: so basically, yeah, we have this this thin little realm 683 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 1: of stability and to either extreme it's just madness and death. Right, 684 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:21,280 Speaker 1: So the body has to very carefully keep that concentration 685 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,440 Speaker 1: of osma lights in the right range, and if it 686 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: gets off there, there are it will take drastic measures 687 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,720 Speaker 1: to get it right again. But then the authors identify 688 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 1: another major reason that the body has to keep fluid 689 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:38,320 Speaker 1: volume and osmalality at the right levels, which is blood pressure. 690 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: You know, they say, your body uses blood to transport 691 00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 1: oxygen and other essential nutrients to all of its tissues. 692 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,920 Speaker 1: Everything in the body needs to get oxygen, uh that, 693 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,360 Speaker 1: you know, from the lungs in the heart, and the 694 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,919 Speaker 1: blood has to get there to do its work. If 695 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: the volume of water in the body drops below ideal levels, 696 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:02,759 Speaker 1: blood volume actually decre recess. There's not enough blood, which 697 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,760 Speaker 1: means the circulatory system has to work harder and harder 698 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,279 Speaker 1: to keep blood pressure up where it needs to be 699 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,279 Speaker 1: to get to all the parts of the body and 700 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 1: deliver those nutrients. So, in addition to maintaining the right 701 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:18,239 Speaker 1: concentration of those dissolved things like sodium, you also just 702 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,359 Speaker 1: need to have enough water in your body to keep 703 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,600 Speaker 1: your blood pressure up to allow your heart to keep 704 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,239 Speaker 1: getting blood to all the parts of the body. It 705 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:27,520 Speaker 1: just it kind of comes back to what you said 706 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:29,880 Speaker 1: earlier about it. You know that we're there's water bags, 707 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 1: we're creatures made out of water, and if we don't 708 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,360 Speaker 1: have enough water, we don't have enough of us, right, Yeah, 709 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 1: nothing nothing works without it anyway. The authors say that 710 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: the bodies of animals have evolved to carefully preserve blood 711 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,279 Speaker 1: volume and blood osmality, and then they describe some of 712 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: the main components of this system that we know about. So, 713 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 1: first of all, there are neurons that monitor blood osmalality 714 00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,960 Speaker 1: and volume. You've got especially dedicated cells in the central 715 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 1: nervous system that pay attention to this stuff, and when 716 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: they detect a problem, they quote trigger a coordinated set 717 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 1: of autonomic, neuroendocrine, and behavioral responses that defend these parameters 718 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 1: against change. So one of the main measures the body 719 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,400 Speaker 1: can take to defend against changes in OSM reality is 720 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:22,200 Speaker 1: modulating kidney function. So as OSM reality increases, you get 721 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,840 Speaker 1: a surge of anti diuretic hormone, which makes the kidneys 722 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,879 Speaker 1: change tack to keep more water inside the body and 723 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,560 Speaker 1: make the urine more highly concentrated, make it less deluded 724 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,359 Speaker 1: with water. Of course, the kidneys can't do their job 725 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 1: alone because they also have to do other things. In 726 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 1: addition to that, they have to help purge the body 727 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:46,360 Speaker 1: of toxic substances and other kinds of waste and of course, 728 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:50,880 Speaker 1: some some water volume will necessarily be lost in that process. Also, 729 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,800 Speaker 1: the body loses water through these other means we mentioned 730 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,800 Speaker 1: a minute ago, sweating, breathing, and so forth, So eventually 731 00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,400 Speaker 1: the body will be forced to consume new water to 732 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,239 Speaker 1: restore the balance and the volume of the blood plasma. 733 00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,560 Speaker 1: So so that's the chemistry and the physiology. But eventually 734 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:08,719 Speaker 1: you have to get to behavior. At some point, the 735 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:12,200 Speaker 1: brain has to trigger behaviors to get new water in 736 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,720 Speaker 1: so an animal thinks I need to drink water. Of course, 737 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 1: this behavior can be costly there you know, there are 738 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 1: factors working against an animal's motivation to do it because 739 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,600 Speaker 1: it might involve spending energy finding and traveling to a 740 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:31,160 Speaker 1: water source. It might involve taking big risks. I mean, 741 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,080 Speaker 1: think of all the nature documentaries you've seen where predation 742 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,400 Speaker 1: happens at the water's edge, whether it's a crocodile jumping 743 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 1: out of the water or a predator sneaking up while 744 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:43,359 Speaker 1: an animal is distracted by lapping up water. And then 745 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,280 Speaker 1: some of those predators have been traditionally been human beings. 746 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 1: Oh totally. And of course drinking water just involves temporarily 747 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,920 Speaker 1: de prioritizing other important things. Like you know, in the 748 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,640 Speaker 1: natural context, maybe forging for food or pursuing reproduction, but 749 00:42:57,680 --> 00:42:59,799 Speaker 1: even think you know, it might force you to get 750 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:03,759 Speaker 1: up from gaming or whatever. Well, I mean, this is 751 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,879 Speaker 1: one of those areas again where like with humans, so 752 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:09,160 Speaker 1: many of us are are are fortunate that we never 753 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,360 Speaker 1: have to hunt for water. You know, the drinking water 754 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 1: is readily available to us. We have all that we need. 755 00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:20,839 Speaker 1: And likewise, through human civilization we we tend to have 756 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:25,520 Speaker 1: the food situation knocked as well. Again, and ideal circumstances, 757 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,920 Speaker 1: you're not going to have to spend um most of 758 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,399 Speaker 1: your day foraging for food, which is going to be 759 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:35,000 Speaker 1: the case with many different species of animals, you know, 760 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,440 Speaker 1: where most of the day is about just finding the food, 761 00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,440 Speaker 1: eating the food, and of course there's no there's no 762 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:41,520 Speaker 1: room for anything else. And if you're having to hunt 763 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,399 Speaker 1: for extra water along the way, then you're that's getting 764 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:48,120 Speaker 1: in the way potentially of this this vital food hunt. Yeah, 765 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:53,280 Speaker 1: just as an aside, easy access to clean, drinkable running 766 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,239 Speaker 1: water is like my go to example of what's good 767 00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,440 Speaker 1: about modern civilization. You know, there are a lot of 768 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:00,960 Speaker 1: people who kind of demonize modern civilization, and there are 769 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 1: a lot of things about it not to like. But 770 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,400 Speaker 1: but easy access to clean water is like, that is 771 00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,080 Speaker 1: the most unambiguous good thing I can think of, right, 772 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:12,319 Speaker 1: I mean, to the to the to the extent that 773 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,720 Speaker 1: it's ridiculous in some in many cases you know where 774 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:19,279 Speaker 1: someone might ask, what what is this? What is this 775 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,000 Speaker 1: water in your toilet? Well, this is drinking water, the 776 00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:24,480 Speaker 1: drinking water that comes into the house, he goes into 777 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:26,680 Speaker 1: the toilet. We just make sure that the water in 778 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,959 Speaker 1: there it's perfectly fresh and drinkable. Um, which I guess 779 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,120 Speaker 1: is good for the dogs and the cats. But um, 780 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,640 Speaker 1: you know certainly that I think you see these various 781 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,480 Speaker 1: you know, gray water models, Um, that certainly make a 782 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,440 Speaker 1: lot more sense, Like why should the drinking water be 783 00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,360 Speaker 1: the water in the toilet. Can't the water from the 784 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:46,200 Speaker 1: washing of my hands be the water in the toilet? 785 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:49,919 Speaker 1: Wouldn't that make more sense? Of course it requires more work, right, 786 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,920 Speaker 1: But to come back to the the wild context, I mean, 787 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,120 Speaker 1: obviously there are all these things that would be factors 788 00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:00,479 Speaker 1: pushing against your your acquisition of water, and your body 789 00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,880 Speaker 1: needs it. So of course what an animal needs is 790 00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:08,480 Speaker 1: intrinsic motivation. Actually, they're demotivating factors that are just natural 791 00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:12,360 Speaker 1: parts of the environment. So acquiring water needs its own 792 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:16,440 Speaker 1: intrinsic motivation, hence the motivating desire of thirst. It is 793 00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,960 Speaker 1: a moment to moment drive to acquire water that's calibrated 794 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:25,480 Speaker 1: by the constantly updated feedback on blood volume and osmality, 795 00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:28,600 Speaker 1: though there may also be some other interesting and more 796 00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:30,799 Speaker 1: surprising inputs on it that will get to in a 797 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,600 Speaker 1: bit now. The authors point out that thirst appears to 798 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,799 Speaker 1: have both positive and negative motivating mechanisms, and I think 799 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,560 Speaker 1: you can think about food, food and hunger as an 800 00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:44,680 Speaker 1: analogy here, because there's something sort of along the same line. 801 00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:48,920 Speaker 1: So you've got positive reinforcement of fluid drinking behavior by 802 00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,600 Speaker 1: just making drinking water when you're thirsty feel really good, 803 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,000 Speaker 1: you know, when you're very thirsty, that glass of water, 804 00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,719 Speaker 1: it's it's delicious, it's wonderful, it feels great. And then 805 00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:00,960 Speaker 1: you've got the negative reinforce smith side, which is that 806 00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,720 Speaker 1: thirst is inherently unpleasant. It is experienced as a type 807 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:09,000 Speaker 1: of discomfort or pain that has to be alleviated by 808 00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:12,600 Speaker 1: drinking fluid. So we all know from experience that these 809 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,120 Speaker 1: things are true. That you have this positive and negative 810 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 1: reinforcement mechanism within the brain for thirst and the drinking 811 00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,680 Speaker 1: of water. But what's very interesting is that, at least 812 00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,680 Speaker 1: at the time of this paper in two sixteen, how 813 00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,680 Speaker 1: these two mechanisms of thirst are instantiated in the brain 814 00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:32,720 Speaker 1: is still not fully understood. There are some major question 815 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,239 Speaker 1: marks remaining, and I think there are at least a 816 00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:37,800 Speaker 1: few other studies that we can refer to in subsequent 817 00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,640 Speaker 1: parts of the series about that where where some ideas 818 00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,000 Speaker 1: have developed since then, but there's still a lot of 819 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:47,400 Speaker 1: questions out there, and this is This is one of 820 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,440 Speaker 1: the reasons that I thought it would be so interesting 821 00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,920 Speaker 1: to pursue Thirst as a series on the show, because 822 00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:55,880 Speaker 1: it's surprising that there are things we still don't know 823 00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:57,480 Speaker 1: about it. It seems like one of those things that 824 00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,279 Speaker 1: would be absolutely totally understood at this point. But but 825 00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,520 Speaker 1: there's some great outlining questions about thirst and and UH, 826 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,799 Speaker 1: how we experience thirst, what are the neural pathways there, 827 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:12,040 Speaker 1: how is thirst SAYD and so forth, So maybe we'll 828 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:13,880 Speaker 1: have to call it for this first part here. I 829 00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,760 Speaker 1: know I'm only halfway through discussing this uh from repaper, 830 00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:18,200 Speaker 1: but if we go on through the end of this 831 00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:20,359 Speaker 1: one this first episode is going to be two hours 832 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:22,920 Speaker 1: long or something, so so maybe we should call it 833 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,480 Speaker 1: What do you think, Rob? I think so, yeah, I'm 834 00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:28,120 Speaker 1: actually almost out of water here and I'm going to 835 00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,520 Speaker 1: have to refill. But yeah, I'm excited to keep going 836 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:32,480 Speaker 1: with this. There are a number of little areas I'm 837 00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,839 Speaker 1: hoping we'll get into the manipulation of thirst by other 838 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:40,840 Speaker 1: organisms the end and life forms the I want to 839 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,520 Speaker 1: get back to the taste of water. Uh, this is 840 00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:48,040 Speaker 1: something that's always fascinated me. I'm granted water, the taste 841 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:50,160 Speaker 1: of of of water will change depending on where you're 842 00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:52,200 Speaker 1: getting the water. But you'll sometimes hear people say, well, 843 00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:54,600 Speaker 1: I don't like the taste of water, or we'll think 844 00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,640 Speaker 1: of water as having no taste at all. Um. I 845 00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,840 Speaker 1: actually found some some some some papers dealing with this 846 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:02,560 Speaker 1: topic a little bit, so I think they could be 847 00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,360 Speaker 1: fun to discuss. People who don't like the taste of water. 848 00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:10,839 Speaker 1: That is a telltale sign of vampororism. Just add some 849 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,520 Speaker 1: red food coloring to it. Then then you're then you're like, oh, 850 00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,560 Speaker 1: this is great, this is wonderful. Okay, well, all veins 851 00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:20,560 Speaker 1: to drink from when we return, All right, in the meantime, 852 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:22,279 Speaker 1: if you want to check out other episodes of Stuff 853 00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:24,000 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind, you'll find them in the Stuff 854 00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,759 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind podcast feed wherever you get your podcast. 855 00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:31,120 Speaker 1: Core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, Artifact episodes on Wednesdays, 856 00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:33,160 Speaker 1: listener mail on Mondays, and on Fridays, we do Weird 857 00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:35,240 Speaker 1: how Cinema. That's our time to set aside most serious 858 00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:38,759 Speaker 1: matters and just discuss a weird film. Huge thanks as 859 00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:42,319 Speaker 1: always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If 860 00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:43,920 Speaker 1: you would like to get in touch with us with 861 00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,480 Speaker 1: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a 862 00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:48,560 Speaker 1: topic for the future, or just to say hello, you 863 00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,640 Speaker 1: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your 864 00:48:51,640 --> 00:49:02,120 Speaker 1: Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production 865 00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:04,920 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, 866 00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,800 Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 867 00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:13,080 Speaker 1: you listening to your favorite shows