WEBVTT - Scoring Bad Women 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:20.916 Pushkin. Hey everyone, today we're taking a step back from 0:00:20.956 --> 0:00:23.756 our usual broken record content to take a deep dive 0:00:23.796 --> 0:00:26.316 into the making of the music rich score of another 0:00:26.356 --> 0:00:29.916 show up Pushkin, Bad Women. The first season of Bad 0:00:29.956 --> 0:00:32.756 Women focused on reconstructing the lives of the five women 0:00:32.876 --> 0:00:36.116 killed by Jack the Ripper. Now the second season is 0:00:36.156 --> 0:00:39.156 out and the centers around a murderer every bit as 0:00:39.276 --> 0:00:42.716 terrible as Jack the Ripper, the so called Blackout Ripper. 0:00:43.236 --> 0:00:46.316 I speak with sound designer Pascal Weiss and jazz guitarist 0:00:46.476 --> 0:00:49.276 Ed Gackin about how they evoked to the atmosphere of 0:00:49.316 --> 0:00:53.516 the time nightclubs and jazz bars and wartime London nineteen 0:00:53.636 --> 0:00:56.676 forty two. We listen to the songs Pascal and Ed 0:00:56.756 --> 0:00:59.356 recorded for the new soundtrack and talk about their process 0:00:59.396 --> 0:01:02.316 for creating them, and at the end they treated us 0:01:02.396 --> 0:01:06.556 to nice performance. Here's my conversation with Pascal and Ed 0:01:06.956 --> 0:01:10.916 and check out Bad Women season two. Hello, Hello, Justin 0:01:11.036 --> 0:01:15.836 Pascal here, who's the composer, sound designer? And I made 0:01:16.036 --> 0:01:18.316 so I kind of got the band together for the 0:01:18.716 --> 0:01:23.036 Bad Women's session. Pascal was playing trombone, It's playing guitar. 0:01:23.396 --> 0:01:25.476 I'm now talking about myself in the third person like 0:01:25.596 --> 0:01:30.316 James Brown. Thanks so much for doing this. Guys, appreciate 0:01:30.396 --> 0:01:32.596 it not at all. Pascal. Maybe you want to talk 0:01:32.596 --> 0:01:35.916 a little bit about Bad Women for sure. Yeah. Well, 0:01:35.956 --> 0:01:40.156 Bad Women is the second season of a podcast which 0:01:40.196 --> 0:01:46.116 began explaining and understanding the lives of Jack the Rippers victims. 0:01:46.556 --> 0:01:48.956 And it was very much a refocusing of that story. 0:01:49.396 --> 0:01:53.476 I mean, that's a story that's now what over a 0:01:53.676 --> 0:01:57.116 century old, but even in my youth terrified me and 0:01:57.156 --> 0:02:00.116 I was a continent away and you know whatever, eighty 0:02:00.596 --> 0:02:04.396 two hundred years removed at that point, but infamous serial killer, yeah, 0:02:04.716 --> 0:02:07.596 who starked London streets and took women of the night 0:02:07.756 --> 0:02:14.356 as victims. Right, Well, that original series was really alongside 0:02:14.756 --> 0:02:17.276 an incredible book called The Five written by the presenter 0:02:17.316 --> 0:02:21.476 of the show Bad Women, Halle Ribinhold, And this book 0:02:21.876 --> 0:02:26.196 completely refocuses this story of Jack the Ripper. It rests 0:02:26.276 --> 0:02:31.076 that obsessive attention on the killer himself, which of course 0:02:31.116 --> 0:02:33.556 has created this this incredible how kind of put it, 0:02:33.596 --> 0:02:38.916 Here's a boogey man story that people endlessly pick over 0:02:39.036 --> 0:02:42.676 and get very obsessed with the idea of who he 0:02:42.796 --> 0:02:44.196 might have been and all the rest of it, and 0:02:44.276 --> 0:02:47.796 what happens is that the victims who had interesting lives 0:02:48.116 --> 0:02:51.756 are just completely overlooked, and it's become a sort of 0:02:51.796 --> 0:02:54.836 comfortable way to kind of write off some of the 0:02:54.916 --> 0:02:56.956 victims of saying, you know, well, you know they were 0:02:56.996 --> 0:03:00.396 sex workers, and there's almost a hidden kind of wink 0:03:00.396 --> 0:03:03.436 they're saying, you know, there there were somehow morally, you know, 0:03:03.436 --> 0:03:06.196 we could abandon them, but actually they had really interesting lives. 0:03:06.236 --> 0:03:09.516 And what Halle really wanted to do with the book 0:03:09.516 --> 0:03:12.556 and then with the podcast that came after it is 0:03:13.476 --> 0:03:16.156 just rebalance that whole tale. Let's look at the women, 0:03:16.276 --> 0:03:18.396 Let's look at the amazing and interesting lives, what they 0:03:18.396 --> 0:03:21.996 had to deal with, and let's stop obsessing with the 0:03:22.036 --> 0:03:25.556 idea of, you know, Jack the Ripper and who he 0:03:25.596 --> 0:03:28.436 may or may not have been. And of course, one 0:03:28.476 --> 0:03:32.196 of the most in some ways shocking revelations you get 0:03:32.476 --> 0:03:35.036 when you dig into the story in those terms, it 0:03:35.116 --> 0:03:39.236 is that central piece of information that almost everyone carries 0:03:39.236 --> 0:03:41.796 around about Jack the Ripper, I that his victims of 0:03:41.876 --> 0:03:44.956 prostitutes turns out to be completely untrue. They weren't. That's 0:03:44.996 --> 0:03:47.636 the sort of set up in Bad Women season one, 0:03:47.876 --> 0:03:51.356 and in season two there's some DNA. From that that 0:03:51.396 --> 0:03:54.316 gets carried forward. We are talking about a killer, and 0:03:54.356 --> 0:03:56.996 we're talking about a killer of women, but we moved 0:03:57.036 --> 0:04:01.956 now to blitz era London and the killer is an 0:04:02.076 --> 0:04:06.956 RAF officer, and again the focus is very firmly on 0:04:07.156 --> 0:04:09.556 who were the women, what were their lives like, and 0:04:09.596 --> 0:04:11.956 what was it like, you know, existing as a woman 0:04:11.956 --> 0:04:13.956 in those times. You know, you're helping with the war 0:04:14.036 --> 0:04:17.356 effort and you know, very difficult for people to imagine 0:04:17.476 --> 0:04:22.036 or conceive of our heroes, you know, doing anything so grotesque. 0:04:22.396 --> 0:04:27.076 So again we've ported from Victorian London through to blitzerer 0:04:27.236 --> 0:04:30.036 London and we're dodging in and out of clubs in 0:04:30.076 --> 0:04:35.356 soho and hence the more jazz themes that come up 0:04:35.396 --> 0:04:37.716 in the show. Right, So season two were in World 0:04:37.756 --> 0:04:41.396 War two era London and a Royal Air Force officers 0:04:41.396 --> 0:04:44.236 the killer, and of course the theme that continues on 0:04:44.436 --> 0:04:48.476 from season one is refocusing the framing of the story 0:04:48.596 --> 0:04:52.596 from the killer to the women who had their lives 0:04:52.596 --> 0:04:56.236 taken from them, exactly giving them something back, yeah yeah, 0:04:56.236 --> 0:04:59.196 and understanding you know, the times they lived in and 0:04:59.236 --> 0:05:02.316 the particular pressures, because you know, all of that gets 0:05:02.356 --> 0:05:07.476 lost when you spend your time obsessing over forensic or 0:05:07.476 --> 0:05:10.156 otherwise details of you know who, say, Jack the ripple 0:05:10.276 --> 0:05:12.436 was whatever. You know, this stuff just gets lost, it 0:05:12.516 --> 0:05:15.596 gets swept away, and so in many ways it's it's 0:05:15.636 --> 0:05:19.036 much more interesting because it gives you a really interesting 0:05:19.516 --> 0:05:23.196 snapshot of how lives were at the time and the 0:05:23.316 --> 0:05:26.276 journeys people made, particularly women in this case. You know, 0:05:26.716 --> 0:05:29.636 it's a very useful refocusing, I think. So that's sort 0:05:29.636 --> 0:05:32.676 of what you guys are tasked with soundtrack, which is 0:05:33.636 --> 0:05:37.476 an interesting I don't know, that's an interesting opportunity, interesting proposition. 0:05:37.676 --> 0:05:39.196 What was the first thing you did when you realized 0:05:39.236 --> 0:05:41.276 you were going to be making music for this new season. 0:05:41.676 --> 0:05:43.716 Whenever I start a project like this, I have this 0:05:43.956 --> 0:05:47.516 romantic idea of taking long walks and planning and really 0:05:47.596 --> 0:05:52.076 kind of devising my strategy and sort of coming up 0:05:52.116 --> 0:05:57.396 with a grand concept. And then inevitably what actually happens 0:05:57.516 --> 0:05:59.676 is life catches up with you and you just crash 0:05:59.716 --> 0:06:01.516 in there and you get on with it. I'm a 0:06:01.516 --> 0:06:04.156 great believer in dumping myself into the middle of it 0:06:04.236 --> 0:06:07.796 and fighting my way out, you know. Yeah. Ye, with 0:06:07.916 --> 0:06:10.196 bad Women in this season to in particular, there's there's 0:06:10.276 --> 0:06:12.516 quite a strong sense of place, I mean in the 0:06:12.596 --> 0:06:15.236 lucky position of also looking after the sound design on 0:06:15.276 --> 0:06:18.996 the show. And that's really interesting and it's one of 0:06:19.036 --> 0:06:23.436 the things that's afforded to a degree by podcasting. There's 0:06:23.436 --> 0:06:26.836 a certain flexibility, you know, the work patterns are not 0:06:26.916 --> 0:06:30.276 so ironed out perhaps as they are in other industries, 0:06:30.356 --> 0:06:32.836 so there isn't a sort of separate sound design department. 0:06:32.876 --> 0:06:34.956 I am that as well, So it really means that 0:06:35.036 --> 0:06:37.876 I can think about the sound design and the music 0:06:37.956 --> 0:06:40.116 as a as a whole. I can get things to 0:06:40.116 --> 0:06:42.436 sort of talk to each other. Actually, what I really 0:06:42.676 --> 0:06:45.916 started to think about first was what's London going to 0:06:46.196 --> 0:06:50.556 sound like at this time? And didn't want to throw 0:06:50.556 --> 0:06:53.556 away the DNA of the music from the first season, 0:06:53.636 --> 0:06:56.156 you know. We wanted that sense of kind of linearity 0:06:56.196 --> 0:06:59.356 of keeping some of the tonal work, you know, from 0:06:59.396 --> 0:07:02.596 the first show and bringing that forward. So it's really 0:07:02.636 --> 0:07:06.156 about trying to understand the kind of fabric of sound 0:07:06.276 --> 0:07:08.116 that's sort of soho and some of the places that 0:07:08.116 --> 0:07:10.876 we're diving in and out in the show would have created. 0:07:10.916 --> 0:07:12.756 So actually, I think my first port of call was 0:07:12.796 --> 0:07:16.916 to start with some sound design elements, you know, let's 0:07:16.916 --> 0:07:19.556 get the place alive. What do these clubs sound like? 0:07:19.556 --> 0:07:23.516 And it throws up a really interesting conundrum really, because 0:07:24.396 --> 0:07:27.196 you know, a restaurant in nineteen forty two wouldn't necessarily 0:07:27.316 --> 0:07:30.276 sound a whole lot different to how a restaurant would 0:07:30.316 --> 0:07:33.716 sound now. But how do you somehow trigger in people 0:07:33.836 --> 0:07:36.356 that the concept that they're being taken back in time? 0:07:36.636 --> 0:07:38.916 And in that sense, I think it's really interesting that 0:07:39.236 --> 0:07:41.036 one of the best ways to kind of fool people 0:07:41.036 --> 0:07:44.556 in that environment is to try and make the sounds 0:07:44.716 --> 0:07:47.876 almost appear to have been recorded back then, so slightly 0:07:47.916 --> 0:07:50.676 degrading them, giving that sense of that vintage sense, and 0:07:50.676 --> 0:07:52.876 I think it's really it helps people be tricked back 0:07:52.876 --> 0:07:55.916 into that time. But going to the sort of music 0:07:55.956 --> 0:07:59.796 side of it, it became quite clear quite early on, 0:08:00.476 --> 0:08:03.756 when you know, looking at the scenes where in these 0:08:03.836 --> 0:08:07.916 bars and clubs of Soho of the time, that jazz 0:08:09.236 --> 0:08:11.396 was going to form a part of this the music 0:08:11.476 --> 0:08:14.116 they would be listening to down in these clubs, the 0:08:14.196 --> 0:08:17.516 jazz scene of the time, which you know ed will 0:08:17.836 --> 0:08:22.636 speak more about. But in an environment where you're working, 0:08:22.876 --> 0:08:24.676 as we say, sort of in the business yet in 0:08:24.716 --> 0:08:28.956 the box, looking standing out a computer or sitting at 0:08:28.996 --> 0:08:32.876 a computer and devising this sound using a lot of 0:08:33.196 --> 0:08:38.716 virtual instruments and electronic instruments. It quickly became apparent to 0:08:38.716 --> 0:08:42.716 me that, you know, we really needed something real and 0:08:42.916 --> 0:08:46.476 human and alive and with all the cracks and the 0:08:46.516 --> 0:08:49.836 fractures and the mistakes and the looseness and the vibe 0:08:49.996 --> 0:08:53.276 that that would have. And that's when we cooked up 0:08:53.276 --> 0:08:55.156 the idea that if we could manage this, can we 0:08:55.196 --> 0:08:57.356 record some tracks that would have been relevant to the 0:08:57.436 --> 0:09:00.836 era and try and thread that through the show. And 0:09:00.876 --> 0:09:02.996 I'm so glad we did it. Yeah, the music turned 0:09:02.996 --> 0:09:05.196 out great. Ed. Can you tell me a little bit 0:09:05.276 --> 0:09:10.236 about the jazz clubs of World War two era? Yeah? 0:09:10.276 --> 0:09:13.236 So it was, you know, an interesting time nineteen forty two. 0:09:13.356 --> 0:09:15.596 One of the big bangs, if you like, in European 0:09:15.676 --> 0:09:18.956 jazz was the Django rein Hot Club of France thing, 0:09:19.076 --> 0:09:22.196 you know him and Stephan Grapelli and all those amazing 0:09:22.276 --> 0:09:24.676 kind of gypsy players that were part of that scene. 0:09:25.156 --> 0:09:27.676 Can you play a bit of what the Jangle Rhinehart 0:09:27.916 --> 0:09:30.676 sound is. He's got a huge guitar. Is that not 0:09:30.756 --> 0:09:32.956 what Jingle would have used? Jango played an acoustic guitar, 0:09:32.996 --> 0:09:35.236 and mccafery acoustic guitar, which we did play on the 0:09:35.276 --> 0:09:38.196 sessions as well, myself and Christian the other guitar player. 0:09:38.196 --> 0:09:39.716 We're playing them on the sessions, but I can sort 0:09:39.716 --> 0:09:41.796 of have a go on this big arch stop. So 0:09:41.836 --> 0:09:44.836 basically in the Hot Club of France traditional setup you 0:09:44.916 --> 0:09:48.956 have in Django's original model, you'd have two rhythm guitar 0:09:48.996 --> 0:10:07.836 players who'd be doing this sort of thing, and then 0:10:07.876 --> 0:10:10.916 you'd have you know, melody stuff going on on top. 0:10:11.436 --> 0:10:17.076 And that was a huge thing in Jango was arguably 0:10:17.116 --> 0:10:19.676 the first kind of European jazz start, you know what 0:10:19.676 --> 0:10:23.316 I mean. Obviously the music is American and mostly African 0:10:23.316 --> 0:10:27.076 American and always led by America, and Django Rynot was 0:10:27.076 --> 0:10:30.316 the first European really to make a kind of any 0:10:30.356 --> 0:10:32.116 kind of impact on the world of jazz, and he 0:10:32.196 --> 0:10:34.396 was huge in the UK. The Hot Club of France 0:10:34.436 --> 0:10:38.156 toured a lot in the UK and actually in at 0:10:38.156 --> 0:10:40.836 the outbreak of the war, I believe they were over 0:10:40.956 --> 0:10:44.116 here and Django and the rest of the band, his 0:10:44.196 --> 0:10:47.516 brother and his cousins, the guitar players, they all fled 0:10:47.556 --> 0:10:50.276 back to France and Stefan Gropealli got stuck in London, 0:10:50.356 --> 0:10:52.636 so he was in London for the duration of the war. 0:10:53.036 --> 0:10:55.956 And then of course in America in the early nineteen 0:10:55.996 --> 0:10:59.236 forties you had the beginnings of the bebop revolution, Charlie 0:10:59.236 --> 0:11:01.876 Parker and Dizzy Gillespie and all those people, which was 0:11:01.916 --> 0:11:05.156 the next sort of big seismic shift in that music. 0:11:05.716 --> 0:11:08.156 It didn't come as quickly to the UK because there 0:11:08.236 --> 0:11:11.236 wasn't like now obviously we have so many channels to 0:11:11.436 --> 0:11:15.036 access music and internet and whatever. And in the early 0:11:15.116 --> 0:11:18.196 days of that music, it was American serviceman who would 0:11:18.236 --> 0:11:21.516 bringing bibot records over to the UK, and so you 0:11:21.556 --> 0:11:25.436 would have heard records in London clubs, and I'm sure 0:11:25.476 --> 0:11:27.836 there would have been people that were kind of playing bebop, 0:11:27.916 --> 0:11:30.596 but late thirties early forties in the UK would have 0:11:30.596 --> 0:11:34.076 still been much more rooted in the swing swing era, 0:11:34.156 --> 0:11:36.036 which is you know, again that kind of four to 0:11:36.116 --> 0:11:46.676 the bar jingle kind of style and then you know 0:11:46.876 --> 0:11:58.396 or I've got rhythm, you know, whereas in America and 0:11:58.436 --> 0:12:01.116 the bebop thing that was starting to become more harmonically 0:12:01.116 --> 0:12:14.036 complicated and so you'd get more so, you know, the 0:12:14.116 --> 0:12:17.876 music was changing very fast in America and in Britain. 0:12:17.956 --> 0:12:21.356 I think, you know, there was a slower adopting of 0:12:21.716 --> 0:12:25.196 the more advanced harmonic and rhythmic and melodic concepts that 0:12:25.236 --> 0:12:27.476 were coming out of the bebop thing. Right with Bebo up, 0:12:27.476 --> 0:12:30.396 they were trying to really deconstruct the chords in an 0:12:30.396 --> 0:12:32.956 interesting way. And swing would have just been let me 0:12:33.036 --> 0:12:37.356 take the Scrocman song I've Got m and make it 0:12:37.436 --> 0:12:40.076 rhythmically interesting. I guess I would say, yeah, totally, and 0:12:40.356 --> 0:12:43.356 also you know, adding extra chords to it, extending the harmony, 0:12:43.436 --> 0:12:47.036 which was a big part of the bebop thing. And yeah, 0:12:47.076 --> 0:12:48.916 but you know, there were people there was a base 0:12:48.956 --> 0:12:51.636 play called Coleridge Good who was from the West Indies 0:12:52.116 --> 0:12:55.036 who came to Scotland. Actually first came to Glasgow in 0:12:55.076 --> 0:12:58.516 the thirties, So this is before the wind Rush, which 0:12:58.596 --> 0:13:01.916 was the big emigration into the UK of Caribbean people 0:13:01.956 --> 0:13:05.996 in the fifties. So Coleridge came to Scotland in the 0:13:05.996 --> 0:13:09.756 early thirties to study engineering and he was a bass 0:13:09.756 --> 0:13:12.316 player on the scene in Soho at that time, early forties, 0:13:12.316 --> 0:13:14.836 and he wrote a brilliant book called bass Lines about 0:13:15.316 --> 0:13:17.876 his life as a jazz musician in the UK. Yeah, 0:13:17.876 --> 0:13:20.956 he was certainly playing kind of swing and bop and 0:13:21.596 --> 0:13:24.076 what then would have been popular music, you know, because 0:13:24.076 --> 0:13:26.276 the swing that was the thing with the swing era stuff. 0:13:26.276 --> 0:13:27.836 It was the pop music of its day. It was 0:13:27.876 --> 0:13:30.036 the hip parade music of its day. People at Benny 0:13:30.076 --> 0:13:32.436 Goodman and those guys were Glenn Miller, you know, they 0:13:32.436 --> 0:13:35.036 were the kind of pop stars of their time. So yeah, 0:13:35.076 --> 0:13:37.116 I think London at that time there would have been 0:13:37.156 --> 0:13:39.556 a lot of different influences going on, the start of 0:13:39.596 --> 0:13:44.676 the Caribbean influence, the start of bebop, the swing big bands. 0:13:44.756 --> 0:13:47.636 People at Ellington had toured in Britain from kind of 0:13:47.636 --> 0:13:50.676 the twenties on woods. So yeah, I think London was 0:13:50.716 --> 0:13:54.076 a you know, probably quite an exciting, exciting place to 0:13:54.116 --> 0:13:56.116 be as a musician in the early forties. What about 0:13:56.156 --> 0:14:00.836 the electric guitar when was that? I mean Charlie Christian 0:14:00.956 --> 0:14:03.956 was the first big kind of electric guitar star who 0:14:03.996 --> 0:14:07.756 was one of the thirties forties. Yeah, Christian died and 0:14:07.796 --> 0:14:09.876 I think forty two is really he was like twenty 0:14:09.916 --> 0:14:13.476 five or something. He played in Benny Goodman's small band 0:14:14.076 --> 0:14:16.756 and he was arguably the first kind of proper bebop 0:14:16.876 --> 0:14:20.076 guitarist and there's a bunch of bootlegs of him playing 0:14:20.076 --> 0:14:23.236 at Minton's, which was the kind of hot house laboratory 0:14:23.276 --> 0:14:25.196 of the bebop era, or all the musicians when they 0:14:25.196 --> 0:14:28.196 finished their gigs at the Savoy and Places would head 0:14:28.676 --> 0:14:31.436 to Minton's, to Minton's Playhouse and play after hours and 0:14:31.676 --> 0:14:34.276 fillowing its. Monk was the house piano player there, and 0:14:34.436 --> 0:14:36.716 Joe Guy would turn up on trumpet. And there's these 0:14:36.756 --> 0:14:39.676 amazing bootleg recordings. It was some guy who was like 0:14:39.716 --> 0:14:42.876 an audio enthusiast, brought in a i think some sort 0:14:42.916 --> 0:14:44.716 of eight track, a real to real thing, and just 0:14:44.716 --> 0:14:48.956 stuck it on the table and there's this incredible record. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:14:48.716 --> 0:14:52.316 they're so brilliant, and it's Charlie Christian really sort of 0:14:52.796 --> 0:14:56.236 ripping it up on standards things like Topsy and Honeysucker 0:14:56.316 --> 0:14:58.116 Rose and stuff like that, and him just really going 0:14:58.196 --> 0:15:01.796 to town on it and kind of extending the jazz vocabulary. 0:15:01.836 --> 0:15:03.636 And there's a chin called swing to Bop which is 0:15:03.636 --> 0:15:06.676 based on Topsy, which is an old standard, and yeah, 0:15:06.676 --> 0:15:08.396 and you can just you can hear him kind of 0:15:08.476 --> 0:15:11.756 rewriting the rule book as he's playing. It's absolutely amazing. 0:15:12.436 --> 0:15:14.956 That's great. So how did you guys got about picking 0:15:15.036 --> 0:15:17.196 the songs for what you guys were going to do 0:15:17.276 --> 0:15:20.116 for the podcast. There's a kind of standard repertoire for 0:15:20.156 --> 0:15:22.756 those hot club bands, which is a lot of jango 0:15:22.836 --> 0:15:25.156 ranuc tunes and a lot of swing tunes from the era. 0:15:25.636 --> 0:15:27.836 But because we were in sort of nineteen forty two, 0:15:27.916 --> 0:15:29.716 we wanted to try and reflect a bit of the 0:15:30.436 --> 0:15:32.996 what we've just been talking about, the slight bebop influence 0:15:32.996 --> 0:15:35.436 and the swing influence, sort of Benny Goodman small band thing. 0:15:35.996 --> 0:15:38.476 So I've got a band called Prophets the Swing, who 0:15:38.476 --> 0:15:41.476 were myself and three other brilliant musicians. We've got Marcus 0:15:41.476 --> 0:15:44.956 Penrose on bass, Ross Hughes on clarinet, tenor and baritone 0:15:44.956 --> 0:15:47.676 who's playing on the recording, and Christian Miller, who's an 0:15:47.676 --> 0:15:50.356 absolutely incredible guitarists. You've sort of drawn the short stroll 0:15:50.436 --> 0:15:52.676 with me justin unfortunately, so I feel a bit like 0:15:52.716 --> 0:15:55.676 Angers Young in ac DC. Someone at once asked Angers Young, 0:15:56.556 --> 0:15:58.156 you know his brother Malcolm Young, who was in a 0:15:58.156 --> 0:15:59.796 CDC as well and wrote a lot the tune. Somebody 0:15:59.796 --> 0:16:01.756 once asked Angers Younger, you're the best guitarist in the world, 0:16:01.756 --> 0:16:03.396 and he said, made I'm not even the best guitarist 0:16:03.396 --> 0:16:06.556 in a CDC, and I'm sort of a bit like that, 0:16:06.596 --> 0:16:09.116 So you've got the shortst of me. Christians absolutely Brillian, 0:16:09.196 --> 0:16:11.956 but they're fantastic musicians. And so we kind of went 0:16:11.996 --> 0:16:14.916 through a lot of swing era tunes of work with Pascal. 0:16:14.916 --> 0:16:16.916 A lot is very old pow and so myself and 0:16:16.996 --> 0:16:20.316 past talked about basically things with different atmospheres, because when 0:16:20.316 --> 0:16:23.956 you're doing soundtrack for something, it's not just about how 0:16:24.036 --> 0:16:26.476 pretty the tunes are or how strong the melody is whatever. 0:16:26.716 --> 0:16:29.596 Obviously you're trying this sounds obviously you're You're trying to 0:16:29.596 --> 0:16:32.236 do something that evokes a certain feeling as well, and 0:16:32.996 --> 0:16:36.836 that will advance the narrative and support the emotional beats 0:16:36.836 --> 0:16:39.436 of the story. What's the first song you landed on 0:16:39.436 --> 0:16:42.356 that sort of fits the emotional tone of the episode 0:16:42.356 --> 0:16:45.196 but is also reminiscent of the time. I think It 0:16:45.236 --> 0:16:46.876 Had to Be You is the first one that we 0:16:46.956 --> 0:16:49.076 kind of felt. It's really well known It had to 0:16:49.076 --> 0:16:50.916 Be You. People who don't even know jazz stuff know 0:16:50.996 --> 0:16:52.956 it because it's been used in so many movies and 0:16:53.076 --> 0:16:55.916 adverts and stuff. But it's such a beautiful. It's a 0:16:55.956 --> 0:16:59.596 lovely melody and it's kind of wistful and a little 0:16:59.636 --> 0:17:01.556 bit kind of melancholy at the same time, you know 0:17:01.556 --> 0:17:03.996 what I mean. It's got that lovely, kind of ambiguous 0:17:04.036 --> 0:17:06.276 feel to it, and that was a I think the 0:17:06.316 --> 0:17:08.276 man I love as well for similar reasons. You know, 0:17:08.636 --> 0:17:11.916 minutes for really interesting. You know, Ed has a lot 0:17:11.916 --> 0:17:14.996 more knowledge than me about this sort of particular era 0:17:15.036 --> 0:17:16.836 of music, but it was quite interesting when he was 0:17:16.876 --> 0:17:19.756 sending me tracks. Quite often, you know, a track will 0:17:19.756 --> 0:17:22.556 have a very particular kind of introduction that may or 0:17:22.636 --> 0:17:24.916 may not really relate to how the rest of the 0:17:24.956 --> 0:17:26.916 tune pans out. And I remember you sent me a 0:17:27.036 --> 0:17:31.116 Django Dark Eyes thing and it and of course, you know, 0:17:31.156 --> 0:17:33.596 with the subject matter of the podcast, yeah, it's important 0:17:33.636 --> 0:17:36.516 that we get this sense of you know, clubs and 0:17:37.036 --> 0:17:39.676 people having a great time and swinging about in nineteen 0:17:39.716 --> 0:17:44.476 forties London. But you know, the central current of this 0:17:44.836 --> 0:17:48.156 podcast is about a very awful series of murders and 0:17:48.236 --> 0:17:52.876 about some pretty bleak lives and situations, so we had 0:17:52.916 --> 0:17:54.556 to kind of keep half an hour even though you know, 0:17:54.636 --> 0:17:57.636 my underscoring is more takes care of that side of 0:17:57.676 --> 0:17:59.556 the podcast. But I remember when you played me the 0:17:59.996 --> 0:18:02.036 intro to Dark Eyes. It had this sort of incredible 0:18:02.156 --> 0:18:05.676 kind of dark, exotic kind of feel, and it's really 0:18:05.676 --> 0:18:08.316 it's really interesting how an introduction to a tune can 0:18:08.316 --> 0:18:09.876 then just sort of bed unced out of the way 0:18:09.916 --> 0:18:12.836 and then the band kind of kicks. It's an interesting 0:18:12.836 --> 0:18:15.276 tune that because it's it's basically the Gypsy it's kind 0:18:15.276 --> 0:18:18.276 of the unofficial gypsy anthem, and you'll know it's really familiar. 0:18:18.316 --> 0:18:34.196 It's the one that goes it's really famous, and it's 0:18:34.236 --> 0:18:36.316 again it's one of those when you play it in 0:18:36.716 --> 0:18:38.956 gypsy hands, I've got the right guitar for it at all, 0:18:38.956 --> 0:18:40.316 but when you play in gypsy bands you play it 0:18:40.356 --> 0:18:56.276 a kind of up like that. But as Pass said, 0:18:56.276 --> 0:18:59.516 because it has inherently got this kind of major minor, 0:18:59.756 --> 0:19:04.076 slightly ambiguous, melancholic, slightly almost sinister quality to it, we 0:19:04.156 --> 0:19:13.716 did a thing where we did lots of bringing out 0:19:13.756 --> 0:19:16.596 the kind of and then it just it floats down 0:19:16.636 --> 0:19:31.276 in a much more ambiguous place. Yeah, that's beautiful. Well, 0:19:31.316 --> 0:19:32.876 it had to be. You was the first track that 0:19:32.916 --> 0:19:34.596 you guys landed on, so we should listen to that. 0:19:34.796 --> 0:19:37.076 This is your guy's moundition of it. Who initially wrote 0:19:37.116 --> 0:19:38.476 the song? And who would you say had the most 0:19:38.556 --> 0:19:41.076 famous version of it? She sure? Who wrote it early on? 0:19:41.516 --> 0:19:45.956 M most famous version? That's hard, isn't it? I mean, 0:19:45.996 --> 0:19:49.396 I guess I mean everyone, This is one of those 0:19:49.396 --> 0:19:52.556 standards that everyone's done. I suppose for people. Probably people 0:19:52.636 --> 0:19:55.036 now it's probably Harry Connick actually, because he did that 0:19:55.156 --> 0:19:58.076 version of it for the movie when Harry Harry out Sally, 0:19:58.076 --> 0:20:00.316 which is huge, you know. Yeah, so it's probably Harry 0:20:00.556 --> 0:20:03.996 will have what he's having exactly. It might be work, yeah, 0:20:03.996 --> 0:20:07.996 I think. I mean, what's incredible about these tunes is 0:20:08.516 --> 0:20:11.516 you know, and this again I'm stating the obvious here. 0:20:11.596 --> 0:20:14.236 Why are they called jazz standards? You know? But the 0:20:14.316 --> 0:20:17.836 malleability is extraordinary. The way you can you can take 0:20:18.396 --> 0:20:24.036 a tune, imbue it with you know, upbeat, care free romance, 0:20:24.116 --> 0:20:26.516 and then you can choose to play it in a 0:20:26.556 --> 0:20:30.316 way that completely undercuts that and the quick and dirty 0:20:30.356 --> 0:20:34.196 twigs that have sometimes used in soundtracking. Is is really 0:20:34.236 --> 0:20:38.876 time stretching music or recordings of music, particularly on the piano. 0:20:39.596 --> 0:20:41.196 I did this quite a lot in Season one of 0:20:41.236 --> 0:20:43.756 Bad Women. You know, you time stretch the whole thing 0:20:43.756 --> 0:20:48.196 out and then and sync it in reverb and essentially, 0:20:48.236 --> 0:20:52.396 you know, even very optimistic sounding harmonies suddenly start to 0:20:52.436 --> 0:20:56.116 kind of swim around yea, and develop a much more mysterious, 0:20:56.676 --> 0:20:59.676 dark undertow. And it's just, yeah, it's a testament to 0:20:59.716 --> 0:21:03.036 how these tunes can be pulled around and they survive. 0:21:03.356 --> 0:21:06.636 You know, this sophistication in the writing. You know, we 0:21:06.676 --> 0:21:09.876 were myself from Pascal but got a little thing that 0:21:10.876 --> 0:21:12.676 the little arrangement of Lady be good to play for 0:21:12.716 --> 0:21:14.596 you today, just to two us as a due out, 0:21:14.596 --> 0:21:16.516 and we were looking at some Ellington things and other stuff, 0:21:16.716 --> 0:21:20.076 and especially with Ellington, like the harmonic stuff. You know, 0:21:20.116 --> 0:21:23.796 the chords and the relationship between chords and melody and 0:21:23.876 --> 0:21:27.316 rhythm is so complex and so sophisticated, but not in 0:21:27.356 --> 0:21:30.316 a flash showing off, do you know what I mean. 0:21:30.396 --> 0:21:33.116 It's like the tune sounds so beautiful and so simple. 0:21:33.116 --> 0:21:34.916 It's only when you try and play them you're like, god, 0:21:34.916 --> 0:21:38.276 this is really hard, you know, because they sound so gorgeous. 0:21:38.516 --> 0:21:42.396 That's why Ellington was a genius arrangement. You know, him 0:21:42.436 --> 0:21:44.196 and Billy straight and you know they were just both 0:21:44.436 --> 0:21:46.916 straight incredible. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean we you know, 0:21:47.276 --> 0:21:49.036 things like take the atrean when you've got you know, 0:21:49.276 --> 0:21:51.316 big sort of major chord and then the second chord 0:21:51.356 --> 0:21:58.716 has got this slightly crunchy Yeah. I mean he's just 0:21:58.836 --> 0:22:00.876 you know, and and a lot of the composers of 0:22:00.876 --> 0:22:03.436 that era. I mean Ellington obviously being in my opinion, 0:22:03.476 --> 0:22:06.276 the pre eminent jas composer of all time. We'll pre 0:22:06.316 --> 0:22:08.676 eminent composer of all time. But you know, lots of 0:22:08.676 --> 0:22:11.516 those guys who were writing music then Colporter and the 0:22:11.556 --> 0:22:14.796 Gershwins and stuff. It's like, yeah, there's a there is 0:22:14.796 --> 0:22:20.556 a real sort of sophistication to the harmonic material that 0:22:20.676 --> 0:22:25.716 just makes it endlessly open to reinvention. You know, absolutely, well, 0:22:25.796 --> 0:22:28.356 let's listen to your rendition of it had to be 0:22:28.396 --> 0:24:56.996 You for Bad Women season two and I m N 0:25:04.756 --> 0:26:41.116 I NE that was great, Thank you. We'll played sax 0:26:41.196 --> 0:26:44.036 On that. That's Ross Hughes, who's absolutely brilliant. Ross is 0:26:44.116 --> 0:26:46.636