1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:20,916 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey everyone, today we're taking a step back from 2 00:00:20,956 --> 00:00:23,756 Speaker 1: our usual broken record content to take a deep dive 3 00:00:23,796 --> 00:00:26,316 Speaker 1: into the making of the music rich score of another 4 00:00:26,356 --> 00:00:29,916 Speaker 1: show up Pushkin, Bad Women. The first season of Bad 5 00:00:29,956 --> 00:00:32,756 Speaker 1: Women focused on reconstructing the lives of the five women 6 00:00:32,876 --> 00:00:36,116 Speaker 1: killed by Jack the Ripper. Now the second season is 7 00:00:36,156 --> 00:00:39,156 Speaker 1: out and the centers around a murderer every bit as 8 00:00:39,276 --> 00:00:42,716 Speaker 1: terrible as Jack the Ripper, the so called Blackout Ripper. 9 00:00:43,236 --> 00:00:46,316 Speaker 1: I speak with sound designer Pascal Weiss and jazz guitarist 10 00:00:46,476 --> 00:00:49,276 Speaker 1: Ed Gackin about how they evoked to the atmosphere of 11 00:00:49,316 --> 00:00:53,516 Speaker 1: the time nightclubs and jazz bars and wartime London nineteen 12 00:00:53,636 --> 00:00:56,676 Speaker 1: forty two. We listen to the songs Pascal and Ed 13 00:00:56,756 --> 00:00:59,356 Speaker 1: recorded for the new soundtrack and talk about their process 14 00:00:59,396 --> 00:01:02,316 Speaker 1: for creating them, and at the end they treated us 15 00:01:02,396 --> 00:01:06,556 Speaker 1: to nice performance. Here's my conversation with Pascal and Ed 16 00:01:06,956 --> 00:01:10,916 Speaker 1: and check out Bad Women season two. Hello, Hello, Justin 17 00:01:11,036 --> 00:01:15,836 Speaker 1: Pascal here, who's the composer, sound designer? And I made 18 00:01:16,036 --> 00:01:18,316 Speaker 1: so I kind of got the band together for the 19 00:01:18,716 --> 00:01:23,036 Speaker 1: Bad Women's session. Pascal was playing trombone, It's playing guitar. 20 00:01:23,396 --> 00:01:25,476 Speaker 1: I'm now talking about myself in the third person like 21 00:01:25,596 --> 00:01:30,316 Speaker 1: James Brown. Thanks so much for doing this. Guys, appreciate 22 00:01:30,396 --> 00:01:32,596 Speaker 1: it not at all. Pascal. Maybe you want to talk 23 00:01:32,596 --> 00:01:35,916 Speaker 1: a little bit about Bad Women for sure. Yeah. Well, 24 00:01:35,956 --> 00:01:40,156 Speaker 1: Bad Women is the second season of a podcast which 25 00:01:40,196 --> 00:01:46,116 Speaker 1: began explaining and understanding the lives of Jack the Rippers victims. 26 00:01:46,556 --> 00:01:48,956 Speaker 1: And it was very much a refocusing of that story. 27 00:01:49,396 --> 00:01:53,476 Speaker 1: I mean, that's a story that's now what over a 28 00:01:53,676 --> 00:01:57,116 Speaker 1: century old, but even in my youth terrified me and 29 00:01:57,156 --> 00:02:00,116 Speaker 1: I was a continent away and you know whatever, eighty 30 00:02:00,596 --> 00:02:04,396 Speaker 1: two hundred years removed at that point, but infamous serial killer, yeah, 31 00:02:04,716 --> 00:02:07,596 Speaker 1: who starked London streets and took women of the night 32 00:02:07,756 --> 00:02:14,356 Speaker 1: as victims. Right, Well, that original series was really alongside 33 00:02:14,756 --> 00:02:17,276 Speaker 1: an incredible book called The Five written by the presenter 34 00:02:17,316 --> 00:02:21,476 Speaker 1: of the show Bad Women, Halle Ribinhold, And this book 35 00:02:21,876 --> 00:02:26,196 Speaker 1: completely refocuses this story of Jack the Ripper. It rests 36 00:02:26,276 --> 00:02:31,076 Speaker 1: that obsessive attention on the killer himself, which of course 37 00:02:31,116 --> 00:02:33,556 Speaker 1: has created this this incredible how kind of put it, 38 00:02:33,596 --> 00:02:38,916 Speaker 1: Here's a boogey man story that people endlessly pick over 39 00:02:39,036 --> 00:02:42,676 Speaker 1: and get very obsessed with the idea of who he 40 00:02:42,796 --> 00:02:44,196 Speaker 1: might have been and all the rest of it, and 41 00:02:44,276 --> 00:02:47,796 Speaker 1: what happens is that the victims who had interesting lives 42 00:02:48,116 --> 00:02:51,756 Speaker 1: are just completely overlooked, and it's become a sort of 43 00:02:51,796 --> 00:02:54,836 Speaker 1: comfortable way to kind of write off some of the 44 00:02:54,916 --> 00:02:56,956 Speaker 1: victims of saying, you know, well, you know they were 45 00:02:56,996 --> 00:03:00,396 Speaker 1: sex workers, and there's almost a hidden kind of wink 46 00:03:00,396 --> 00:03:03,436 Speaker 1: they're saying, you know, there there were somehow morally, you know, 47 00:03:03,436 --> 00:03:06,196 Speaker 1: we could abandon them, but actually they had really interesting lives. 48 00:03:06,236 --> 00:03:09,516 Speaker 1: And what Halle really wanted to do with the book 49 00:03:09,516 --> 00:03:12,556 Speaker 1: and then with the podcast that came after it is 50 00:03:13,476 --> 00:03:16,156 Speaker 1: just rebalance that whole tale. Let's look at the women, 51 00:03:16,276 --> 00:03:18,396 Speaker 1: Let's look at the amazing and interesting lives, what they 52 00:03:18,396 --> 00:03:21,996 Speaker 1: had to deal with, and let's stop obsessing with the 53 00:03:22,036 --> 00:03:25,556 Speaker 1: idea of, you know, Jack the Ripper and who he 54 00:03:25,596 --> 00:03:28,436 Speaker 1: may or may not have been. And of course, one 55 00:03:28,476 --> 00:03:32,196 Speaker 1: of the most in some ways shocking revelations you get 56 00:03:32,476 --> 00:03:35,036 Speaker 1: when you dig into the story in those terms, it 57 00:03:35,116 --> 00:03:39,236 Speaker 1: is that central piece of information that almost everyone carries 58 00:03:39,236 --> 00:03:41,796 Speaker 1: around about Jack the Ripper, I that his victims of 59 00:03:41,876 --> 00:03:44,956 Speaker 1: prostitutes turns out to be completely untrue. They weren't. That's 60 00:03:44,996 --> 00:03:47,636 Speaker 1: the sort of set up in Bad Women season one, 61 00:03:47,876 --> 00:03:51,356 Speaker 1: and in season two there's some DNA. From that that 62 00:03:51,396 --> 00:03:54,316 Speaker 1: gets carried forward. We are talking about a killer, and 63 00:03:54,356 --> 00:03:56,996 Speaker 1: we're talking about a killer of women, but we moved 64 00:03:57,036 --> 00:04:01,956 Speaker 1: now to blitz era London and the killer is an 65 00:04:02,076 --> 00:04:06,956 Speaker 1: RAF officer, and again the focus is very firmly on 66 00:04:07,156 --> 00:04:09,556 Speaker 1: who were the women, what were their lives like, and 67 00:04:09,596 --> 00:04:11,956 Speaker 1: what was it like, you know, existing as a woman 68 00:04:11,956 --> 00:04:13,956 Speaker 1: in those times. You know, you're helping with the war 69 00:04:14,036 --> 00:04:17,356 Speaker 1: effort and you know, very difficult for people to imagine 70 00:04:17,476 --> 00:04:22,036 Speaker 1: or conceive of our heroes, you know, doing anything so grotesque. 71 00:04:22,396 --> 00:04:27,076 Speaker 1: So again we've ported from Victorian London through to blitzerer 72 00:04:27,236 --> 00:04:30,036 Speaker 1: London and we're dodging in and out of clubs in 73 00:04:30,076 --> 00:04:35,356 Speaker 1: soho and hence the more jazz themes that come up 74 00:04:35,396 --> 00:04:37,716 Speaker 1: in the show. Right, So season two were in World 75 00:04:37,756 --> 00:04:41,396 Speaker 1: War two era London and a Royal Air Force officers 76 00:04:41,396 --> 00:04:44,236 Speaker 1: the killer, and of course the theme that continues on 77 00:04:44,436 --> 00:04:48,476 Speaker 1: from season one is refocusing the framing of the story 78 00:04:48,596 --> 00:04:52,596 Speaker 1: from the killer to the women who had their lives 79 00:04:52,596 --> 00:04:56,236 Speaker 1: taken from them, exactly giving them something back, yeah yeah, 80 00:04:56,236 --> 00:04:59,196 Speaker 1: and understanding you know, the times they lived in and 81 00:04:59,236 --> 00:05:02,316 Speaker 1: the particular pressures, because you know, all of that gets 82 00:05:02,356 --> 00:05:07,476 Speaker 1: lost when you spend your time obsessing over forensic or 83 00:05:07,476 --> 00:05:10,156 Speaker 1: otherwise details of you know who, say, Jack the ripple 84 00:05:10,276 --> 00:05:12,436 Speaker 1: was whatever. You know, this stuff just gets lost, it 85 00:05:12,516 --> 00:05:15,596 Speaker 1: gets swept away, and so in many ways it's it's 86 00:05:15,636 --> 00:05:19,036 Speaker 1: much more interesting because it gives you a really interesting 87 00:05:19,516 --> 00:05:23,196 Speaker 1: snapshot of how lives were at the time and the 88 00:05:23,316 --> 00:05:26,276 Speaker 1: journeys people made, particularly women in this case. You know, 89 00:05:26,716 --> 00:05:29,636 Speaker 1: it's a very useful refocusing, I think. So that's sort 90 00:05:29,636 --> 00:05:32,676 Speaker 1: of what you guys are tasked with soundtrack, which is 91 00:05:33,636 --> 00:05:37,476 Speaker 1: an interesting I don't know, that's an interesting opportunity, interesting proposition. 92 00:05:37,676 --> 00:05:39,196 Speaker 1: What was the first thing you did when you realized 93 00:05:39,236 --> 00:05:41,276 Speaker 1: you were going to be making music for this new season. 94 00:05:41,676 --> 00:05:43,716 Speaker 1: Whenever I start a project like this, I have this 95 00:05:43,956 --> 00:05:47,516 Speaker 1: romantic idea of taking long walks and planning and really 96 00:05:47,596 --> 00:05:52,076 Speaker 1: kind of devising my strategy and sort of coming up 97 00:05:52,116 --> 00:05:57,396 Speaker 1: with a grand concept. And then inevitably what actually happens 98 00:05:57,516 --> 00:05:59,676 Speaker 1: is life catches up with you and you just crash 99 00:05:59,716 --> 00:06:01,516 Speaker 1: in there and you get on with it. I'm a 100 00:06:01,516 --> 00:06:04,156 Speaker 1: great believer in dumping myself into the middle of it 101 00:06:04,236 --> 00:06:07,796 Speaker 1: and fighting my way out, you know. Yeah. Ye, with 102 00:06:07,916 --> 00:06:10,196 Speaker 1: bad Women in this season to in particular, there's there's 103 00:06:10,276 --> 00:06:12,516 Speaker 1: quite a strong sense of place, I mean in the 104 00:06:12,596 --> 00:06:15,236 Speaker 1: lucky position of also looking after the sound design on 105 00:06:15,276 --> 00:06:18,996 Speaker 1: the show. And that's really interesting and it's one of 106 00:06:19,036 --> 00:06:23,436 Speaker 1: the things that's afforded to a degree by podcasting. There's 107 00:06:23,436 --> 00:06:26,836 Speaker 1: a certain flexibility, you know, the work patterns are not 108 00:06:26,916 --> 00:06:30,276 Speaker 1: so ironed out perhaps as they are in other industries, 109 00:06:30,356 --> 00:06:32,836 Speaker 1: so there isn't a sort of separate sound design department. 110 00:06:32,876 --> 00:06:34,956 Speaker 1: I am that as well, So it really means that 111 00:06:35,036 --> 00:06:37,876 Speaker 1: I can think about the sound design and the music 112 00:06:37,956 --> 00:06:40,116 Speaker 1: as a as a whole. I can get things to 113 00:06:40,116 --> 00:06:42,436 Speaker 1: sort of talk to each other. Actually, what I really 114 00:06:42,676 --> 00:06:45,916 Speaker 1: started to think about first was what's London going to 115 00:06:46,196 --> 00:06:50,556 Speaker 1: sound like at this time? And didn't want to throw 116 00:06:50,556 --> 00:06:53,556 Speaker 1: away the DNA of the music from the first season, 117 00:06:53,636 --> 00:06:56,156 Speaker 1: you know. We wanted that sense of kind of linearity 118 00:06:56,196 --> 00:06:59,356 Speaker 1: of keeping some of the tonal work, you know, from 119 00:06:59,396 --> 00:07:02,596 Speaker 1: the first show and bringing that forward. So it's really 120 00:07:02,636 --> 00:07:06,156 Speaker 1: about trying to understand the kind of fabric of sound 121 00:07:06,276 --> 00:07:08,116 Speaker 1: that's sort of soho and some of the places that 122 00:07:08,116 --> 00:07:10,876 Speaker 1: we're diving in and out in the show would have created. 123 00:07:10,916 --> 00:07:12,756 Speaker 1: So actually, I think my first port of call was 124 00:07:12,796 --> 00:07:16,916 Speaker 1: to start with some sound design elements, you know, let's 125 00:07:16,916 --> 00:07:19,556 Speaker 1: get the place alive. What do these clubs sound like? 126 00:07:19,556 --> 00:07:23,516 Speaker 1: And it throws up a really interesting conundrum really, because 127 00:07:24,396 --> 00:07:27,196 Speaker 1: you know, a restaurant in nineteen forty two wouldn't necessarily 128 00:07:27,316 --> 00:07:30,276 Speaker 1: sound a whole lot different to how a restaurant would 129 00:07:30,316 --> 00:07:33,716 Speaker 1: sound now. But how do you somehow trigger in people 130 00:07:33,836 --> 00:07:36,356 Speaker 1: that the concept that they're being taken back in time? 131 00:07:36,636 --> 00:07:38,916 Speaker 1: And in that sense, I think it's really interesting that 132 00:07:39,236 --> 00:07:41,036 Speaker 1: one of the best ways to kind of fool people 133 00:07:41,036 --> 00:07:44,556 Speaker 1: in that environment is to try and make the sounds 134 00:07:44,716 --> 00:07:47,876 Speaker 1: almost appear to have been recorded back then, so slightly 135 00:07:47,916 --> 00:07:50,676 Speaker 1: degrading them, giving that sense of that vintage sense, and 136 00:07:50,676 --> 00:07:52,876 Speaker 1: I think it's really it helps people be tricked back 137 00:07:52,876 --> 00:07:55,916 Speaker 1: into that time. But going to the sort of music 138 00:07:55,956 --> 00:07:59,796 Speaker 1: side of it, it became quite clear quite early on, 139 00:08:00,476 --> 00:08:03,756 Speaker 1: when you know, looking at the scenes where in these 140 00:08:03,836 --> 00:08:07,916 Speaker 1: bars and clubs of Soho of the time, that jazz 141 00:08:09,236 --> 00:08:11,396 Speaker 1: was going to form a part of this the music 142 00:08:11,476 --> 00:08:14,116 Speaker 1: they would be listening to down in these clubs, the 143 00:08:14,196 --> 00:08:17,516 Speaker 1: jazz scene of the time, which you know ed will 144 00:08:17,836 --> 00:08:22,636 Speaker 1: speak more about. But in an environment where you're working, 145 00:08:22,876 --> 00:08:24,676 Speaker 1: as we say, sort of in the business yet in 146 00:08:24,716 --> 00:08:28,956 Speaker 1: the box, looking standing out a computer or sitting at 147 00:08:28,996 --> 00:08:32,876 Speaker 1: a computer and devising this sound using a lot of 148 00:08:33,196 --> 00:08:38,716 Speaker 1: virtual instruments and electronic instruments. It quickly became apparent to 149 00:08:38,716 --> 00:08:42,716 Speaker 1: me that, you know, we really needed something real and 150 00:08:42,916 --> 00:08:46,476 Speaker 1: human and alive and with all the cracks and the 151 00:08:46,516 --> 00:08:49,836 Speaker 1: fractures and the mistakes and the looseness and the vibe 152 00:08:49,996 --> 00:08:53,276 Speaker 1: that that would have. And that's when we cooked up 153 00:08:53,276 --> 00:08:55,156 Speaker 1: the idea that if we could manage this, can we 154 00:08:55,196 --> 00:08:57,356 Speaker 1: record some tracks that would have been relevant to the 155 00:08:57,436 --> 00:09:00,836 Speaker 1: era and try and thread that through the show. And 156 00:09:00,876 --> 00:09:02,996 Speaker 1: I'm so glad we did it. Yeah, the music turned 157 00:09:02,996 --> 00:09:05,196 Speaker 1: out great. Ed. Can you tell me a little bit 158 00:09:05,276 --> 00:09:10,236 Speaker 1: about the jazz clubs of World War two era? Yeah? 159 00:09:10,276 --> 00:09:13,236 Speaker 1: So it was, you know, an interesting time nineteen forty two. 160 00:09:13,356 --> 00:09:15,596 Speaker 1: One of the big bangs, if you like, in European 161 00:09:15,676 --> 00:09:18,956 Speaker 1: jazz was the Django rein Hot Club of France thing, 162 00:09:19,076 --> 00:09:22,196 Speaker 1: you know him and Stephan Grapelli and all those amazing 163 00:09:22,276 --> 00:09:24,676 Speaker 1: kind of gypsy players that were part of that scene. 164 00:09:25,156 --> 00:09:27,676 Speaker 1: Can you play a bit of what the Jangle Rhinehart 165 00:09:27,916 --> 00:09:30,676 Speaker 1: sound is. He's got a huge guitar. Is that not 166 00:09:30,756 --> 00:09:32,956 Speaker 1: what Jingle would have used? Jango played an acoustic guitar, 167 00:09:32,996 --> 00:09:35,236 Speaker 1: and mccafery acoustic guitar, which we did play on the 168 00:09:35,276 --> 00:09:38,196 Speaker 1: sessions as well, myself and Christian the other guitar player. 169 00:09:38,196 --> 00:09:39,716 Speaker 1: We're playing them on the sessions, but I can sort 170 00:09:39,716 --> 00:09:41,796 Speaker 1: of have a go on this big arch stop. So 171 00:09:41,836 --> 00:09:44,836 Speaker 1: basically in the Hot Club of France traditional setup you 172 00:09:44,916 --> 00:09:48,956 Speaker 1: have in Django's original model, you'd have two rhythm guitar 173 00:09:48,996 --> 00:10:07,836 Speaker 1: players who'd be doing this sort of thing, and then 174 00:10:07,876 --> 00:10:10,916 Speaker 1: you'd have you know, melody stuff going on on top. 175 00:10:11,436 --> 00:10:17,076 Speaker 1: And that was a huge thing in Jango was arguably 176 00:10:17,116 --> 00:10:19,676 Speaker 1: the first kind of European jazz start, you know what 177 00:10:19,676 --> 00:10:23,316 Speaker 1: I mean. Obviously the music is American and mostly African 178 00:10:23,316 --> 00:10:27,076 Speaker 1: American and always led by America, and Django Rynot was 179 00:10:27,076 --> 00:10:30,316 Speaker 1: the first European really to make a kind of any 180 00:10:30,356 --> 00:10:32,116 Speaker 1: kind of impact on the world of jazz, and he 181 00:10:32,196 --> 00:10:34,396 Speaker 1: was huge in the UK. The Hot Club of France 182 00:10:34,436 --> 00:10:38,156 Speaker 1: toured a lot in the UK and actually in at 183 00:10:38,156 --> 00:10:40,836 Speaker 1: the outbreak of the war, I believe they were over 184 00:10:40,956 --> 00:10:44,116 Speaker 1: here and Django and the rest of the band, his 185 00:10:44,196 --> 00:10:47,516 Speaker 1: brother and his cousins, the guitar players, they all fled 186 00:10:47,556 --> 00:10:50,276 Speaker 1: back to France and Stefan Gropealli got stuck in London, 187 00:10:50,356 --> 00:10:52,636 Speaker 1: so he was in London for the duration of the war. 188 00:10:53,036 --> 00:10:55,956 Speaker 1: And then of course in America in the early nineteen 189 00:10:55,996 --> 00:10:59,236 Speaker 1: forties you had the beginnings of the bebop revolution, Charlie 190 00:10:59,236 --> 00:11:01,876 Speaker 1: Parker and Dizzy Gillespie and all those people, which was 191 00:11:01,916 --> 00:11:05,156 Speaker 1: the next sort of big seismic shift in that music. 192 00:11:05,716 --> 00:11:08,156 Speaker 1: It didn't come as quickly to the UK because there 193 00:11:08,236 --> 00:11:11,236 Speaker 1: wasn't like now obviously we have so many channels to 194 00:11:11,436 --> 00:11:15,036 Speaker 1: access music and internet and whatever. And in the early 195 00:11:15,116 --> 00:11:18,196 Speaker 1: days of that music, it was American serviceman who would 196 00:11:18,236 --> 00:11:21,516 Speaker 1: bringing bibot records over to the UK, and so you 197 00:11:21,556 --> 00:11:25,436 Speaker 1: would have heard records in London clubs, and I'm sure 198 00:11:25,476 --> 00:11:27,836 Speaker 1: there would have been people that were kind of playing bebop, 199 00:11:27,916 --> 00:11:30,596 Speaker 1: but late thirties early forties in the UK would have 200 00:11:30,596 --> 00:11:34,076 Speaker 1: still been much more rooted in the swing swing era, 201 00:11:34,156 --> 00:11:36,036 Speaker 1: which is you know, again that kind of four to 202 00:11:36,116 --> 00:11:46,676 Speaker 1: the bar jingle kind of style and then you know 203 00:11:46,876 --> 00:11:58,396 Speaker 1: or I've got rhythm, you know, whereas in America and 204 00:11:58,436 --> 00:12:01,116 Speaker 1: the bebop thing that was starting to become more harmonically 205 00:12:01,116 --> 00:12:14,036 Speaker 1: complicated and so you'd get more so, you know, the 206 00:12:14,116 --> 00:12:17,876 Speaker 1: music was changing very fast in America and in Britain. 207 00:12:17,956 --> 00:12:21,356 Speaker 1: I think, you know, there was a slower adopting of 208 00:12:21,716 --> 00:12:25,196 Speaker 1: the more advanced harmonic and rhythmic and melodic concepts that 209 00:12:25,236 --> 00:12:27,476 Speaker 1: were coming out of the bebop thing. Right with Bebo up, 210 00:12:27,476 --> 00:12:30,396 Speaker 1: they were trying to really deconstruct the chords in an 211 00:12:30,396 --> 00:12:32,956 Speaker 1: interesting way. And swing would have just been let me 212 00:12:33,036 --> 00:12:37,356 Speaker 1: take the Scrocman song I've Got m and make it 213 00:12:37,436 --> 00:12:40,076 Speaker 1: rhythmically interesting. I guess I would say, yeah, totally, and 214 00:12:40,356 --> 00:12:43,356 Speaker 1: also you know, adding extra chords to it, extending the harmony, 215 00:12:43,436 --> 00:12:47,036 Speaker 1: which was a big part of the bebop thing. And yeah, 216 00:12:47,076 --> 00:12:48,916 Speaker 1: but you know, there were people there was a base 217 00:12:48,956 --> 00:12:51,636 Speaker 1: play called Coleridge Good who was from the West Indies 218 00:12:52,116 --> 00:12:55,036 Speaker 1: who came to Scotland. Actually first came to Glasgow in 219 00:12:55,076 --> 00:12:58,516 Speaker 1: the thirties, So this is before the wind Rush, which 220 00:12:58,596 --> 00:13:01,916 Speaker 1: was the big emigration into the UK of Caribbean people 221 00:13:01,956 --> 00:13:05,996 Speaker 1: in the fifties. So Coleridge came to Scotland in the 222 00:13:05,996 --> 00:13:09,756 Speaker 1: early thirties to study engineering and he was a bass 223 00:13:09,756 --> 00:13:12,316 Speaker 1: player on the scene in Soho at that time, early forties, 224 00:13:12,316 --> 00:13:14,836 Speaker 1: and he wrote a brilliant book called bass Lines about 225 00:13:15,316 --> 00:13:17,876 Speaker 1: his life as a jazz musician in the UK. Yeah, 226 00:13:17,876 --> 00:13:20,956 Speaker 1: he was certainly playing kind of swing and bop and 227 00:13:21,596 --> 00:13:24,076 Speaker 1: what then would have been popular music, you know, because 228 00:13:24,076 --> 00:13:26,276 Speaker 1: the swing that was the thing with the swing era stuff. 229 00:13:26,276 --> 00:13:27,836 Speaker 1: It was the pop music of its day. It was 230 00:13:27,876 --> 00:13:30,036 Speaker 1: the hip parade music of its day. People at Benny 231 00:13:30,076 --> 00:13:32,436 Speaker 1: Goodman and those guys were Glenn Miller, you know, they 232 00:13:32,436 --> 00:13:35,036 Speaker 1: were the kind of pop stars of their time. So yeah, 233 00:13:35,076 --> 00:13:37,116 Speaker 1: I think London at that time there would have been 234 00:13:37,156 --> 00:13:39,556 Speaker 1: a lot of different influences going on, the start of 235 00:13:39,596 --> 00:13:44,676 Speaker 1: the Caribbean influence, the start of bebop, the swing big bands. 236 00:13:44,756 --> 00:13:47,636 Speaker 1: People at Ellington had toured in Britain from kind of 237 00:13:47,636 --> 00:13:50,676 Speaker 1: the twenties on woods. So yeah, I think London was 238 00:13:50,716 --> 00:13:54,076 Speaker 1: a you know, probably quite an exciting, exciting place to 239 00:13:54,116 --> 00:13:56,116 Speaker 1: be as a musician in the early forties. What about 240 00:13:56,156 --> 00:14:00,836 Speaker 1: the electric guitar when was that? I mean Charlie Christian 241 00:14:00,956 --> 00:14:03,956 Speaker 1: was the first big kind of electric guitar star who 242 00:14:03,996 --> 00:14:07,756 Speaker 1: was one of the thirties forties. Yeah, Christian died and 243 00:14:07,796 --> 00:14:09,876 Speaker 1: I think forty two is really he was like twenty 244 00:14:09,916 --> 00:14:13,476 Speaker 1: five or something. He played in Benny Goodman's small band 245 00:14:14,076 --> 00:14:16,756 Speaker 1: and he was arguably the first kind of proper bebop 246 00:14:16,876 --> 00:14:20,076 Speaker 1: guitarist and there's a bunch of bootlegs of him playing 247 00:14:20,076 --> 00:14:23,236 Speaker 1: at Minton's, which was the kind of hot house laboratory 248 00:14:23,276 --> 00:14:25,196 Speaker 1: of the bebop era, or all the musicians when they 249 00:14:25,196 --> 00:14:28,196 Speaker 1: finished their gigs at the Savoy and Places would head 250 00:14:28,676 --> 00:14:31,436 Speaker 1: to Minton's, to Minton's Playhouse and play after hours and 251 00:14:31,676 --> 00:14:34,276 Speaker 1: fillowing its. Monk was the house piano player there, and 252 00:14:34,436 --> 00:14:36,716 Speaker 1: Joe Guy would turn up on trumpet. And there's these 253 00:14:36,756 --> 00:14:39,676 Speaker 1: amazing bootleg recordings. It was some guy who was like 254 00:14:39,716 --> 00:14:42,876 Speaker 1: an audio enthusiast, brought in a i think some sort 255 00:14:42,916 --> 00:14:44,716 Speaker 1: of eight track, a real to real thing, and just 256 00:14:44,716 --> 00:14:48,956 Speaker 1: stuck it on the table and there's this incredible record. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 257 00:14:48,716 --> 00:14:52,316 Speaker 1: they're so brilliant, and it's Charlie Christian really sort of 258 00:14:52,796 --> 00:14:56,236 Speaker 1: ripping it up on standards things like Topsy and Honeysucker 259 00:14:56,316 --> 00:14:58,116 Speaker 1: Rose and stuff like that, and him just really going 260 00:14:58,196 --> 00:15:01,796 Speaker 1: to town on it and kind of extending the jazz vocabulary. 261 00:15:01,836 --> 00:15:03,636 Speaker 1: And there's a chin called swing to Bop which is 262 00:15:03,636 --> 00:15:06,676 Speaker 1: based on Topsy, which is an old standard, and yeah, 263 00:15:06,676 --> 00:15:08,396 Speaker 1: and you can just you can hear him kind of 264 00:15:08,476 --> 00:15:11,756 Speaker 1: rewriting the rule book as he's playing. It's absolutely amazing. 265 00:15:12,436 --> 00:15:14,956 Speaker 1: That's great. So how did you guys got about picking 266 00:15:15,036 --> 00:15:17,196 Speaker 1: the songs for what you guys were going to do 267 00:15:17,276 --> 00:15:20,116 Speaker 1: for the podcast. There's a kind of standard repertoire for 268 00:15:20,156 --> 00:15:22,756 Speaker 1: those hot club bands, which is a lot of jango 269 00:15:22,836 --> 00:15:25,156 Speaker 1: ranuc tunes and a lot of swing tunes from the era. 270 00:15:25,636 --> 00:15:27,836 Speaker 1: But because we were in sort of nineteen forty two, 271 00:15:27,916 --> 00:15:29,716 Speaker 1: we wanted to try and reflect a bit of the 272 00:15:30,436 --> 00:15:32,996 Speaker 1: what we've just been talking about, the slight bebop influence 273 00:15:32,996 --> 00:15:35,436 Speaker 1: and the swing influence, sort of Benny Goodman small band thing. 274 00:15:35,996 --> 00:15:38,476 Speaker 1: So I've got a band called Prophets the Swing, who 275 00:15:38,476 --> 00:15:41,476 Speaker 1: were myself and three other brilliant musicians. We've got Marcus 276 00:15:41,476 --> 00:15:44,956 Speaker 1: Penrose on bass, Ross Hughes on clarinet, tenor and baritone 277 00:15:44,956 --> 00:15:47,676 Speaker 1: who's playing on the recording, and Christian Miller, who's an 278 00:15:47,676 --> 00:15:50,356 Speaker 1: absolutely incredible guitarists. You've sort of drawn the short stroll 279 00:15:50,436 --> 00:15:52,676 Speaker 1: with me justin unfortunately, so I feel a bit like 280 00:15:52,716 --> 00:15:55,676 Speaker 1: Angers Young in ac DC. Someone at once asked Angers Young, 281 00:15:56,556 --> 00:15:58,156 Speaker 1: you know his brother Malcolm Young, who was in a 282 00:15:58,156 --> 00:15:59,796 Speaker 1: CDC as well and wrote a lot the tune. Somebody 283 00:15:59,796 --> 00:16:01,756 Speaker 1: once asked Angers Younger, you're the best guitarist in the world, 284 00:16:01,756 --> 00:16:03,396 Speaker 1: and he said, made I'm not even the best guitarist 285 00:16:03,396 --> 00:16:06,556 Speaker 1: in a CDC, and I'm sort of a bit like that, 286 00:16:06,596 --> 00:16:09,116 Speaker 1: So you've got the shortst of me. Christians absolutely Brillian, 287 00:16:09,196 --> 00:16:11,956 Speaker 1: but they're fantastic musicians. And so we kind of went 288 00:16:11,996 --> 00:16:14,916 Speaker 1: through a lot of swing era tunes of work with Pascal. 289 00:16:14,916 --> 00:16:16,916 Speaker 1: A lot is very old pow and so myself and 290 00:16:16,996 --> 00:16:20,316 Speaker 1: past talked about basically things with different atmospheres, because when 291 00:16:20,316 --> 00:16:23,956 Speaker 1: you're doing soundtrack for something, it's not just about how 292 00:16:24,036 --> 00:16:26,476 Speaker 1: pretty the tunes are or how strong the melody is whatever. 293 00:16:26,716 --> 00:16:29,596 Speaker 1: Obviously you're trying this sounds obviously you're You're trying to 294 00:16:29,596 --> 00:16:32,236 Speaker 1: do something that evokes a certain feeling as well, and 295 00:16:32,996 --> 00:16:36,836 Speaker 1: that will advance the narrative and support the emotional beats 296 00:16:36,836 --> 00:16:39,436 Speaker 1: of the story. What's the first song you landed on 297 00:16:39,436 --> 00:16:42,356 Speaker 1: that sort of fits the emotional tone of the episode 298 00:16:42,356 --> 00:16:45,196 Speaker 1: but is also reminiscent of the time. I think It 299 00:16:45,236 --> 00:16:46,876 Speaker 1: Had to Be You is the first one that we 300 00:16:46,956 --> 00:16:49,076 Speaker 1: kind of felt. It's really well known It had to 301 00:16:49,076 --> 00:16:50,916 Speaker 1: Be You. People who don't even know jazz stuff know 302 00:16:50,996 --> 00:16:52,956 Speaker 1: it because it's been used in so many movies and 303 00:16:53,076 --> 00:16:55,916 Speaker 1: adverts and stuff. But it's such a beautiful. It's a 304 00:16:55,956 --> 00:16:59,596 Speaker 1: lovely melody and it's kind of wistful and a little 305 00:16:59,636 --> 00:17:01,556 Speaker 1: bit kind of melancholy at the same time, you know 306 00:17:01,556 --> 00:17:03,996 Speaker 1: what I mean. It's got that lovely, kind of ambiguous 307 00:17:04,036 --> 00:17:06,276 Speaker 1: feel to it, and that was a I think the 308 00:17:06,316 --> 00:17:08,276 Speaker 1: man I love as well for similar reasons. You know, 309 00:17:08,636 --> 00:17:11,916 Speaker 1: minutes for really interesting. You know, Ed has a lot 310 00:17:11,916 --> 00:17:14,996 Speaker 1: more knowledge than me about this sort of particular era 311 00:17:15,036 --> 00:17:16,836 Speaker 1: of music, but it was quite interesting when he was 312 00:17:16,876 --> 00:17:19,756 Speaker 1: sending me tracks. Quite often, you know, a track will 313 00:17:19,756 --> 00:17:22,556 Speaker 1: have a very particular kind of introduction that may or 314 00:17:22,636 --> 00:17:24,916 Speaker 1: may not really relate to how the rest of the 315 00:17:24,956 --> 00:17:26,916 Speaker 1: tune pans out. And I remember you sent me a 316 00:17:27,036 --> 00:17:31,116 Speaker 1: Django Dark Eyes thing and it and of course, you know, 317 00:17:31,156 --> 00:17:33,596 Speaker 1: with the subject matter of the podcast, yeah, it's important 318 00:17:33,636 --> 00:17:36,516 Speaker 1: that we get this sense of you know, clubs and 319 00:17:37,036 --> 00:17:39,676 Speaker 1: people having a great time and swinging about in nineteen 320 00:17:39,716 --> 00:17:44,476 Speaker 1: forties London. But you know, the central current of this 321 00:17:44,836 --> 00:17:48,156 Speaker 1: podcast is about a very awful series of murders and 322 00:17:48,236 --> 00:17:52,876 Speaker 1: about some pretty bleak lives and situations, so we had 323 00:17:52,916 --> 00:17:54,556 Speaker 1: to kind of keep half an hour even though you know, 324 00:17:54,636 --> 00:17:57,636 Speaker 1: my underscoring is more takes care of that side of 325 00:17:57,676 --> 00:17:59,556 Speaker 1: the podcast. But I remember when you played me the 326 00:17:59,996 --> 00:18:02,036 Speaker 1: intro to Dark Eyes. It had this sort of incredible 327 00:18:02,156 --> 00:18:05,676 Speaker 1: kind of dark, exotic kind of feel, and it's really 328 00:18:05,676 --> 00:18:08,316 Speaker 1: it's really interesting how an introduction to a tune can 329 00:18:08,316 --> 00:18:09,876 Speaker 1: then just sort of bed unced out of the way 330 00:18:09,916 --> 00:18:12,836 Speaker 1: and then the band kind of kicks. It's an interesting 331 00:18:12,836 --> 00:18:15,276 Speaker 1: tune that because it's it's basically the Gypsy it's kind 332 00:18:15,276 --> 00:18:18,276 Speaker 1: of the unofficial gypsy anthem, and you'll know it's really familiar. 333 00:18:18,316 --> 00:18:34,196 Speaker 1: It's the one that goes it's really famous, and it's 334 00:18:34,236 --> 00:18:36,316 Speaker 1: again it's one of those when you play it in 335 00:18:36,716 --> 00:18:38,956 Speaker 1: gypsy hands, I've got the right guitar for it at all, 336 00:18:38,956 --> 00:18:40,316 Speaker 1: but when you play in gypsy bands you play it 337 00:18:40,356 --> 00:18:56,276 Speaker 1: a kind of up like that. But as Pass said, 338 00:18:56,276 --> 00:18:59,516 Speaker 1: because it has inherently got this kind of major minor, 339 00:18:59,756 --> 00:19:04,076 Speaker 1: slightly ambiguous, melancholic, slightly almost sinister quality to it, we 340 00:19:04,156 --> 00:19:13,716 Speaker 1: did a thing where we did lots of bringing out 341 00:19:13,756 --> 00:19:16,596 Speaker 1: the kind of and then it just it floats down 342 00:19:16,636 --> 00:19:31,276 Speaker 1: in a much more ambiguous place. Yeah, that's beautiful. Well, 343 00:19:31,316 --> 00:19:32,876 Speaker 1: it had to be. You was the first track that 344 00:19:32,916 --> 00:19:34,596 Speaker 1: you guys landed on, so we should listen to that. 345 00:19:34,796 --> 00:19:37,076 Speaker 1: This is your guy's moundition of it. Who initially wrote 346 00:19:37,116 --> 00:19:38,476 Speaker 1: the song? And who would you say had the most 347 00:19:38,556 --> 00:19:41,076 Speaker 1: famous version of it? She sure? Who wrote it early on? 348 00:19:41,516 --> 00:19:45,956 Speaker 1: M most famous version? That's hard, isn't it? I mean, 349 00:19:45,996 --> 00:19:49,396 Speaker 1: I guess I mean everyone, This is one of those 350 00:19:49,396 --> 00:19:52,556 Speaker 1: standards that everyone's done. I suppose for people. Probably people 351 00:19:52,636 --> 00:19:55,036 Speaker 1: now it's probably Harry Connick actually, because he did that 352 00:19:55,156 --> 00:19:58,076 Speaker 1: version of it for the movie when Harry Harry out Sally, 353 00:19:58,076 --> 00:20:00,316 Speaker 1: which is huge, you know. Yeah, so it's probably Harry 354 00:20:00,556 --> 00:20:03,996 Speaker 1: will have what he's having exactly. It might be work, yeah, 355 00:20:03,996 --> 00:20:07,996 Speaker 1: I think. I mean, what's incredible about these tunes is 356 00:20:08,516 --> 00:20:11,516 Speaker 1: you know, and this again I'm stating the obvious here. 357 00:20:11,596 --> 00:20:14,236 Speaker 1: Why are they called jazz standards? You know? But the 358 00:20:14,316 --> 00:20:17,836 Speaker 1: malleability is extraordinary. The way you can you can take 359 00:20:18,396 --> 00:20:24,036 Speaker 1: a tune, imbue it with you know, upbeat, care free romance, 360 00:20:24,116 --> 00:20:26,516 Speaker 1: and then you can choose to play it in a 361 00:20:26,556 --> 00:20:30,316 Speaker 1: way that completely undercuts that and the quick and dirty 362 00:20:30,356 --> 00:20:34,196 Speaker 1: twigs that have sometimes used in soundtracking. Is is really 363 00:20:34,236 --> 00:20:38,876 Speaker 1: time stretching music or recordings of music, particularly on the piano. 364 00:20:39,596 --> 00:20:41,196 Speaker 1: I did this quite a lot in Season one of 365 00:20:41,236 --> 00:20:43,756 Speaker 1: Bad Women. You know, you time stretch the whole thing 366 00:20:43,756 --> 00:20:48,196 Speaker 1: out and then and sync it in reverb and essentially, 367 00:20:48,236 --> 00:20:52,396 Speaker 1: you know, even very optimistic sounding harmonies suddenly start to 368 00:20:52,436 --> 00:20:56,116 Speaker 1: kind of swim around yea, and develop a much more mysterious, 369 00:20:56,676 --> 00:20:59,676 Speaker 1: dark undertow. And it's just, yeah, it's a testament to 370 00:20:59,716 --> 00:21:03,036 Speaker 1: how these tunes can be pulled around and they survive. 371 00:21:03,356 --> 00:21:06,636 Speaker 1: You know, this sophistication in the writing. You know, we 372 00:21:06,676 --> 00:21:09,876 Speaker 1: were myself from Pascal but got a little thing that 373 00:21:10,876 --> 00:21:12,676 Speaker 1: the little arrangement of Lady be good to play for 374 00:21:12,716 --> 00:21:14,596 Speaker 1: you today, just to two us as a due out, 375 00:21:14,596 --> 00:21:16,516 Speaker 1: and we were looking at some Ellington things and other stuff, 376 00:21:16,716 --> 00:21:20,076 Speaker 1: and especially with Ellington, like the harmonic stuff. You know, 377 00:21:20,116 --> 00:21:23,796 Speaker 1: the chords and the relationship between chords and melody and 378 00:21:23,876 --> 00:21:27,316 Speaker 1: rhythm is so complex and so sophisticated, but not in 379 00:21:27,356 --> 00:21:30,316 Speaker 1: a flash showing off, do you know what I mean. 380 00:21:30,396 --> 00:21:33,116 Speaker 1: It's like the tune sounds so beautiful and so simple. 381 00:21:33,116 --> 00:21:34,916 Speaker 1: It's only when you try and play them you're like, god, 382 00:21:34,916 --> 00:21:38,276 Speaker 1: this is really hard, you know, because they sound so gorgeous. 383 00:21:38,516 --> 00:21:42,396 Speaker 1: That's why Ellington was a genius arrangement. You know, him 384 00:21:42,436 --> 00:21:44,196 Speaker 1: and Billy straight and you know they were just both 385 00:21:44,436 --> 00:21:46,916 Speaker 1: straight incredible. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean we you know, 386 00:21:47,276 --> 00:21:49,036 Speaker 1: things like take the atrean when you've got you know, 387 00:21:49,276 --> 00:21:51,316 Speaker 1: big sort of major chord and then the second chord 388 00:21:51,356 --> 00:21:58,716 Speaker 1: has got this slightly crunchy Yeah. I mean he's just 389 00:21:58,836 --> 00:22:00,876 Speaker 1: you know, and and a lot of the composers of 390 00:22:00,876 --> 00:22:03,436 Speaker 1: that era. I mean Ellington obviously being in my opinion, 391 00:22:03,476 --> 00:22:06,276 Speaker 1: the pre eminent jas composer of all time. We'll pre 392 00:22:06,316 --> 00:22:08,676 Speaker 1: eminent composer of all time. But you know, lots of 393 00:22:08,676 --> 00:22:11,516 Speaker 1: those guys who were writing music then Colporter and the 394 00:22:11,556 --> 00:22:14,796 Speaker 1: Gershwins and stuff. It's like, yeah, there's a there is 395 00:22:14,796 --> 00:22:20,556 Speaker 1: a real sort of sophistication to the harmonic material that 396 00:22:20,676 --> 00:22:25,716 Speaker 1: just makes it endlessly open to reinvention. You know, absolutely, well, 397 00:22:25,796 --> 00:22:28,356 Speaker 1: let's listen to your rendition of it had to be 398 00:22:28,396 --> 00:24:56,996 Speaker 1: You for Bad Women season two and I m N 399 00:25:04,756 --> 00:26:41,116 Speaker 1: I NE that was great, Thank you. We'll played sax 400 00:26:41,196 --> 00:26:44,036 Speaker 1: On that. That's Ross Hughes, who's absolutely brilliant. Ross is 401 00:26:44,116 --> 00:26:46,636 Speaker 1: another old friend of him myself and Pascals that we've 402 00:26:46,636 --> 00:26:49,596 Speaker 1: both worked with a lot, who's a brilliant composer and 403 00:26:50,076 --> 00:26:54,116 Speaker 1: arranger and absolute i mean a proper multi instrumentalist. Most 404 00:26:54,156 --> 00:26:56,596 Speaker 1: of us we always refer to him as the real musician. 405 00:26:56,716 --> 00:26:59,156 Speaker 1: He's the real musician, isn't it. Yeah, And it's funny. 406 00:26:59,196 --> 00:27:01,356 Speaker 1: Like most musicians, we will play a couple of things, 407 00:27:01,396 --> 00:27:03,796 Speaker 1: but we get kind of weaker as the circle goes out, 408 00:27:03,916 --> 00:27:06,476 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Whereas Ross is absolutely you know, 409 00:27:06,516 --> 00:27:09,676 Speaker 1: he's a fantastic clarinet player, beautiful saxophone, all the woodwinds. 410 00:27:09,676 --> 00:27:11,996 Speaker 1: He is a great piano player, he's a lovely bass player. 411 00:27:12,036 --> 00:27:15,756 Speaker 1: He's a you know, absolute multi instrumentalist. Well that's great. 412 00:27:15,796 --> 00:27:19,636 Speaker 1: I mean, such a sultry tune. And I think for 413 00:27:19,716 --> 00:27:22,356 Speaker 1: people listening who haven't heard Bad Women yet, it'll be 414 00:27:22,356 --> 00:27:24,156 Speaker 1: interesting for them to hear how that was yeh in 415 00:27:24,196 --> 00:27:26,356 Speaker 1: the show. I mean it's I think with all of these, 416 00:27:26,356 --> 00:27:29,516 Speaker 1: while we knew there was a certain function, you know, 417 00:27:29,596 --> 00:27:33,076 Speaker 1: sometimes we just we needed tunes to step up and 418 00:27:33,116 --> 00:27:37,156 Speaker 1: be danceable and and and give off some of the 419 00:27:37,516 --> 00:27:41,316 Speaker 1: you know, the difficult optimism of the time. Though. I 420 00:27:41,356 --> 00:27:44,196 Speaker 1: was always when we were discussing, said of how to 421 00:27:44,196 --> 00:27:46,676 Speaker 1: play them, I was always trying to push them towards 422 00:27:47,036 --> 00:27:49,916 Speaker 1: the ambiguity and the melancholy if it was in there 423 00:27:50,236 --> 00:27:53,236 Speaker 1: in the yeah, yeah, and it resonates with the stories 424 00:27:53,276 --> 00:27:55,916 Speaker 1: that we're hearing. You know, these are the episodes a 425 00:27:55,996 --> 00:28:00,876 Speaker 1: litted with romances that go astray and you know, and 426 00:28:01,076 --> 00:28:03,036 Speaker 1: even the concept or something like oh lady, be good. 427 00:28:03,076 --> 00:28:06,396 Speaker 1: You know, it strikes a big resonance with the way 428 00:28:06,436 --> 00:28:10,156 Speaker 1: women were being treated and talked about out and dealt 429 00:28:10,196 --> 00:28:14,476 Speaker 1: with in those times. So it's yeah, if we that 430 00:28:14,596 --> 00:28:16,876 Speaker 1: level of ambiguity, which I think does come through in 431 00:28:16,956 --> 00:28:19,556 Speaker 1: that take. And I should say, you know that we 432 00:28:19,556 --> 00:28:24,156 Speaker 1: were not after utterly perfect camera ready takes. If you 433 00:28:24,196 --> 00:28:26,316 Speaker 1: see what I mean, that's I'm happy when you've got 434 00:28:26,396 --> 00:28:31,276 Speaker 1: me in the band life. Yeah, I'm mashing up spontane yeah. Yeah, 435 00:28:31,316 --> 00:28:34,596 Speaker 1: it's not going to be yeah, you know, necessarily perfect record. Yeah, 436 00:28:34,596 --> 00:28:37,196 Speaker 1: and that fitted the music of the day, you know, 437 00:28:37,236 --> 00:28:39,596 Speaker 1: I think that's the thing like we you know, I'm 438 00:28:39,636 --> 00:28:42,836 Speaker 1: you know, so reverent about that music and about the 439 00:28:43,196 --> 00:28:45,276 Speaker 1: those tunes and that time and when you talk to 440 00:28:45,316 --> 00:28:48,596 Speaker 1: older musicians, they had no idea that this stuff people 441 00:28:48,636 --> 00:28:51,396 Speaker 1: would still be playing this stuff fifty sixty, one hundred 442 00:28:51,516 --> 00:28:53,396 Speaker 1: years later, do you know what I mean. It's like, yeah, 443 00:28:53,596 --> 00:28:56,436 Speaker 1: I think that strikes it a really interesting you know, 444 00:28:56,556 --> 00:29:00,236 Speaker 1: the very broader theme in audio. You know, this idea 445 00:29:00,276 --> 00:29:03,796 Speaker 1: that we've we have perfected things and then had to 446 00:29:03,836 --> 00:29:08,516 Speaker 1: find ways of reintroducing error and imperfection. Yeah, you know, 447 00:29:08,556 --> 00:29:11,316 Speaker 1: which is a of a broader, bigger philosophical point, but 448 00:29:11,396 --> 00:29:14,796 Speaker 1: it is. It's really important. This stuff doesn't sound like 449 00:29:14,876 --> 00:29:19,956 Speaker 1: some ultra polished studio session that's dumped into and I'm 450 00:29:20,316 --> 00:29:23,396 Speaker 1: a nightclub and and really, I mean a ridiculous and 451 00:29:23,476 --> 00:29:26,876 Speaker 1: extreme example of that is um oh Johnny O, which 452 00:29:26,876 --> 00:29:29,316 Speaker 1: we didn't We didn't record fully at all because what 453 00:29:29,316 --> 00:29:31,596 Speaker 1: happens is about eight pars into it, a bomb drops 454 00:29:31,636 --> 00:29:34,476 Speaker 1: on a club. So I literally had It's like the 455 00:29:34,716 --> 00:29:36,956 Speaker 1: guys just started playing and I just walked into Okay, 456 00:29:37,076 --> 00:29:40,476 Speaker 1: a bomber's dropped one, you can stop. You know. There's 457 00:29:40,476 --> 00:29:42,596 Speaker 1: an extraordinary scene where it's saying, you know, I knew, 458 00:29:42,636 --> 00:29:44,476 Speaker 1: I knew the sound design had already done it, and 459 00:29:44,516 --> 00:29:46,636 Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, I just need to hear you start 460 00:29:46,676 --> 00:29:48,796 Speaker 1: this tune because a bomber's going to drop. So you're 461 00:29:48,796 --> 00:29:54,316 Speaker 1: saying this group is not like the Titanic ship goes down. 462 00:29:54,356 --> 00:29:58,156 Speaker 1: Could have done that. Yeah, there's not that level legging 463 00:29:58,196 --> 00:30:02,676 Speaker 1: it for the exit mate, absolutely straight? H What was 464 00:30:02,716 --> 00:30:05,316 Speaker 1: the next towing you guys settled on? Think after that, 465 00:30:05,356 --> 00:30:07,476 Speaker 1: it might have been Diner actually, which is a really 466 00:30:07,476 --> 00:30:10,636 Speaker 1: old standard Diners one that you're here on early Hot 467 00:30:10,636 --> 00:30:13,956 Speaker 1: Club of France records. Django and Stefan Grappelli recorded that 468 00:30:14,036 --> 00:30:18,956 Speaker 1: tune a lot of times. Yeah Lewis did it, Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, No, 469 00:30:19,036 --> 00:30:21,716 Speaker 1: I mean it was a real It was again, you know, 470 00:30:21,836 --> 00:30:24,956 Speaker 1: sort of massive pop hit of the day, um that 471 00:30:25,036 --> 00:30:28,396 Speaker 1: got reinvented by jazz musicians. You know, trying to get 472 00:30:28,436 --> 00:30:31,876 Speaker 1: yourself into that mindset of this being pop, you know, 473 00:30:33,276 --> 00:30:37,356 Speaker 1: it requires a real I wish it stretch of the 474 00:30:38,116 --> 00:30:41,836 Speaker 1: imagination and that, and you know it certainly the bebop movement, 475 00:30:42,116 --> 00:30:45,236 Speaker 1: you know, was occupied a very you know, now it's 476 00:30:45,276 --> 00:30:48,036 Speaker 1: become this really rarefied thing that's taught in. You know, 477 00:30:48,276 --> 00:30:50,436 Speaker 1: I went to university. I did a jazz degree course. 478 00:30:50,476 --> 00:30:52,836 Speaker 1: It was just like that movie Whiplash, but less overrated, 479 00:30:53,316 --> 00:30:55,716 Speaker 1: and so I did. I did that and it was brilliant. 480 00:30:55,756 --> 00:30:59,796 Speaker 1: I mean we had we had we had amazing teachers 481 00:30:59,836 --> 00:31:02,556 Speaker 1: and you know, they was brilliant and incredible musicians and 482 00:31:02,596 --> 00:31:05,156 Speaker 1: it was a really interesting experience. But they talk about 483 00:31:05,196 --> 00:31:07,316 Speaker 1: this themselves, the idea that that stuff is now taught 484 00:31:07,396 --> 00:31:09,996 Speaker 1: in sort of conservatoires and whatever, and you know, it 485 00:31:10,076 --> 00:31:13,436 Speaker 1: was total it was complete outlaw music. It was rebel 486 00:31:13,516 --> 00:31:14,836 Speaker 1: music of the time, do you know what I mean. 487 00:31:14,876 --> 00:31:17,756 Speaker 1: It wasn't in any way socially acceptable, and the people 488 00:31:17,796 --> 00:31:21,276 Speaker 1: that played it were viewed by you know, sort of 489 00:31:21,316 --> 00:31:24,396 Speaker 1: the media and the establishment of the forties, as in 490 00:31:24,436 --> 00:31:27,196 Speaker 1: the way that gangster rappers were were viewed in the nineties, 491 00:31:27,236 --> 00:31:28,476 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, they were viewed as these 492 00:31:28,556 --> 00:31:31,876 Speaker 1: kind of scary, you know, ghetto people that were heroin 493 00:31:31,916 --> 00:31:35,036 Speaker 1: addicts and would you know, corrupt your children. You know, yeah, yeah, 494 00:31:35,156 --> 00:31:38,556 Speaker 1: I mean very unfairly obviously, because they were you know, studious, 495 00:31:39,196 --> 00:31:42,676 Speaker 1: incredible musicians. But you know that, and that's that's so 496 00:31:42,716 --> 00:31:45,716 Speaker 1: hard to reach back and try and try and kind 497 00:31:45,716 --> 00:31:49,716 Speaker 1: of imagine that sentiment now because you know, now sounds 498 00:31:49,756 --> 00:31:52,276 Speaker 1: so sort of in some ways refined and yeah, totally, 499 00:31:52,316 --> 00:31:54,596 Speaker 1: and in the way that hip hop has become very 500 00:31:54,676 --> 00:31:57,036 Speaker 1: much pop music now. You know, when we were kids 501 00:31:57,036 --> 00:31:58,996 Speaker 1: in the eighties and nineties, it wasn't and now it's 502 00:31:59,156 --> 00:32:02,596 Speaker 1: you know, it's completely kind of mainstream pop. So it's 503 00:32:02,676 --> 00:32:05,436 Speaker 1: you know, the same thing happens again, doesn't it. If 504 00:32:05,436 --> 00:32:08,556 Speaker 1: we're being honest, I'm sure jazz musicians, especially in the 505 00:32:08,636 --> 00:32:13,436 Speaker 1: b BA, we're probably more ill behaved. Some of them 506 00:32:13,436 --> 00:32:16,476 Speaker 1: were completely some of them were Some of them, I 507 00:32:16,516 --> 00:32:20,036 Speaker 1: think we're very nay boys and girls. Weren't they check out, 508 00:32:20,076 --> 00:33:10,316 Speaker 1: you guys version of the old standard dinah and nothing 509 00:33:13,636 --> 00:33:46,156 Speaker 1: and nothing and nothing and got down and then then 510 00:34:03,876 --> 00:35:24,076 Speaker 1: I go and you don't and then I three endings 511 00:35:24,076 --> 00:35:26,676 Speaker 1: with a prize. When I was listening to that really 512 00:35:26,756 --> 00:35:30,516 Speaker 1: reminded me of something that I remember talking to the 513 00:35:30,516 --> 00:35:32,516 Speaker 1: band about on the day. And again it goes back 514 00:35:32,516 --> 00:35:35,756 Speaker 1: to this idea of creating music that sounds like it's 515 00:35:36,316 --> 00:35:39,756 Speaker 1: belonging in a particular space and a place. I remember saying, now, 516 00:35:39,796 --> 00:35:41,156 Speaker 1: I don't know whether it was on this tune, but 517 00:35:41,196 --> 00:35:43,476 Speaker 1: it kind of it's relevant anyway. I remember saying, you know, 518 00:35:44,196 --> 00:35:47,436 Speaker 1: you've got to imagine that you're playing and there's people 519 00:35:47,436 --> 00:35:49,956 Speaker 1: around you making a hell of a racket. I remember 520 00:35:49,956 --> 00:35:51,756 Speaker 1: saying at one point, you've got to play as if 521 00:35:52,196 --> 00:35:56,676 Speaker 1: people are basically ignoring you, and then everyone's about musician, 522 00:35:58,356 --> 00:36:00,996 Speaker 1: but it's you know, yeah, it's like it's trying to 523 00:36:01,076 --> 00:36:03,196 Speaker 1: get that that spirit in it because you know, I know, 524 00:36:03,316 --> 00:36:05,596 Speaker 1: having played you know a bit of weddings and you 525 00:36:05,676 --> 00:36:08,276 Speaker 1: name it, you know, when the way you play it 526 00:36:08,796 --> 00:36:11,556 Speaker 1: just to the crowd to a degree, and so I 527 00:36:11,596 --> 00:36:15,396 Speaker 1: really wanted to try and occasionally, you know, get that 528 00:36:15,516 --> 00:36:19,396 Speaker 1: feeling of the band about to maybe fall apart. It doesn't, 529 00:36:19,556 --> 00:36:21,396 Speaker 1: it doesn't feel so in that apart from that little 530 00:36:21,436 --> 00:36:23,436 Speaker 1: end bit, which is really nice, it's like it's more 531 00:36:23,516 --> 00:36:25,356 Speaker 1: or less like they've they've kind of given up thor right, 532 00:36:25,396 --> 00:36:27,076 Speaker 1: come on, let's get a drink. No one's listening, you know, 533 00:36:27,116 --> 00:36:28,996 Speaker 1: And I really I love that. I love that about 534 00:36:28,996 --> 00:36:31,756 Speaker 1: it because that felt very important to me to you know, 535 00:36:31,836 --> 00:36:34,596 Speaker 1: from the point of view of getting it to sit 536 00:36:34,756 --> 00:36:37,796 Speaker 1: right under you know, because I'm thinking, I'm what I'm 537 00:36:37,796 --> 00:36:39,476 Speaker 1: going to put over the top of this, which is 538 00:36:39,476 --> 00:36:41,356 Speaker 1: a shame on one level because I'm covering it with 539 00:36:41,396 --> 00:36:44,396 Speaker 1: people drinking and talking and you know, the sound of this, 540 00:36:44,516 --> 00:36:47,276 Speaker 1: that and the other. But on another level, yeah, it's 541 00:36:47,276 --> 00:36:49,956 Speaker 1: about how can we how can we make this really 542 00:36:50,436 --> 00:36:54,436 Speaker 1: sit right in the dramatic situation, and yet another level 543 00:36:54,476 --> 00:36:59,676 Speaker 1: that that feels like the appropriate place to be. Yeah, yeah, 544 00:37:00,916 --> 00:37:03,116 Speaker 1: I say, listening back to that, I won't listen to 545 00:37:03,156 --> 00:37:05,676 Speaker 1: that tune for a little bit. And Marcus the bass 546 00:37:05,676 --> 00:37:08,836 Speaker 1: player Marks Penrose absolutely stirling job of holding everything together. 547 00:37:09,196 --> 00:37:12,636 Speaker 1: He's like mummy basically, he's amazingly Yeah, he totally is. 548 00:37:12,636 --> 00:37:14,196 Speaker 1: You sort of clinging to mar because he's got such 549 00:37:14,196 --> 00:37:18,076 Speaker 1: a strong rhythmic drive and he's so brilliant reforms. He's 550 00:37:18,076 --> 00:37:20,796 Speaker 1: always absolutely right on it, you know, that idea of 551 00:37:20,796 --> 00:37:22,636 Speaker 1: fighting too for the audiants. I feel like it's something 552 00:37:22,636 --> 00:37:24,916 Speaker 1: that's last, you know. I think that's sort of why 553 00:37:25,036 --> 00:37:27,596 Speaker 1: jazz is sort of regarded in the sort of rarefied 554 00:37:27,636 --> 00:37:30,356 Speaker 1: air now, this idea that it's to be played and 555 00:37:30,436 --> 00:37:33,116 Speaker 1: you know, with with with with with, you know, an 556 00:37:33,156 --> 00:37:37,236 Speaker 1: audience who's deadly quietly clap after the solo. You have 557 00:37:37,396 --> 00:37:40,596 Speaker 1: to clap after the solo. It's like, well, maybe maybe 558 00:37:40,596 --> 00:37:42,876 Speaker 1: you should earn yeah, you know, and maybe and maybe 559 00:37:42,876 --> 00:37:46,956 Speaker 1: you should earn that. I was always fascinated by the 560 00:37:47,036 --> 00:37:49,276 Speaker 1: Jazz Cafe in London. I'm going I'm talking about it 561 00:37:49,316 --> 00:37:51,636 Speaker 1: twenty three years ago now, but I remember when it, 562 00:37:51,716 --> 00:37:53,156 Speaker 1: you know, when it was done up. They had this 563 00:37:53,796 --> 00:37:59,316 Speaker 1: on the wall above the stage. They had STFU during performances. 564 00:37:59,516 --> 00:38:02,756 Speaker 1: Thanks yeah, and that meant shut the fuck up during performances. 565 00:38:02,756 --> 00:38:05,756 Speaker 1: And it's like that that's an interesting vibe together in 566 00:38:05,756 --> 00:38:08,516 Speaker 1: a jazz club. You know what, the ffer in Brixton. 567 00:38:08,556 --> 00:38:10,156 Speaker 1: If you're ever in London, justin you have to go 568 00:38:10,196 --> 00:38:12,436 Speaker 1: to the f for a tavern in Brixton because there's 569 00:38:12,436 --> 00:38:15,356 Speaker 1: an incredible set of musicians who play. They're led by 570 00:38:15,356 --> 00:38:18,596 Speaker 1: a guy called Alan Weeks, who's a British Caribbean guitar 571 00:38:18,636 --> 00:38:20,556 Speaker 1: player who played in loads of reggae bands in the 572 00:38:20,596 --> 00:38:23,836 Speaker 1: seventies and eighties and incredible jazz guitar player. And they 573 00:38:23,876 --> 00:38:25,076 Speaker 1: just set up in the corner of the pub and 574 00:38:25,116 --> 00:38:27,076 Speaker 1: they just play and it's this kind of it's brilliant. 575 00:38:27,236 --> 00:38:30,396 Speaker 1: It's a proper sort of raucous gig where people come 576 00:38:30,396 --> 00:38:32,156 Speaker 1: to drink and dance and to have a good time. 577 00:38:32,436 --> 00:38:33,996 Speaker 1: And you know, and they play all these tunes. They 578 00:38:33,996 --> 00:38:36,396 Speaker 1: play all the old standards and all that stuff, but 579 00:38:36,436 --> 00:38:39,036 Speaker 1: they also mix up. We're playing scar tunes and reggae 580 00:38:39,076 --> 00:38:41,596 Speaker 1: things and James Brown and kind of funk stuff, and 581 00:38:41,636 --> 00:38:45,356 Speaker 1: it's just it's really interesting how they Yeah, they absolutely 582 00:38:46,276 --> 00:38:50,196 Speaker 1: they've got great integrity as musicians, but they absolutely make 583 00:38:50,236 --> 00:38:53,276 Speaker 1: it accessible as well. And I think that's a yeah, 584 00:38:53,276 --> 00:38:57,276 Speaker 1: and that's he's strangely tangentially related to that is the 585 00:38:57,316 --> 00:39:00,036 Speaker 1: business of doing music within podcasts. You know, it's like 586 00:39:00,876 --> 00:39:04,836 Speaker 1: there's almost always a voice happening in a podcast for 587 00:39:04,876 --> 00:39:08,116 Speaker 1: obvious reasons, and that voices bang center center stage, you know. 588 00:39:08,236 --> 00:39:11,196 Speaker 1: So it's like if you were writing music for a 589 00:39:11,276 --> 00:39:13,356 Speaker 1: film or even for like a radio drama or something, 590 00:39:13,436 --> 00:39:17,036 Speaker 1: it's conceivable that you would have the stage to yourself 591 00:39:17,036 --> 00:39:20,516 Speaker 1: for a little but that really very rarely happens in 592 00:39:20,516 --> 00:39:22,676 Speaker 1: a podcast. You might get you might get a little 593 00:39:22,756 --> 00:39:26,036 Speaker 1: sniff of it when you when the narration at the 594 00:39:26,076 --> 00:39:28,276 Speaker 1: top of the podcast makes way for the theme, and 595 00:39:28,316 --> 00:39:31,116 Speaker 1: it's really interesting. It's a really interesting challenge that about 596 00:39:31,116 --> 00:39:34,516 Speaker 1: how to make music that will that can coexist with 597 00:39:34,556 --> 00:39:38,556 Speaker 1: a speaking voice that is pretty much always there. And 598 00:39:38,636 --> 00:39:40,676 Speaker 1: so I do remember, you know, there's a times when 599 00:39:40,716 --> 00:39:42,916 Speaker 1: people were doing these sort of amazing solos and I 600 00:39:42,956 --> 00:39:46,436 Speaker 1: just thought, that's great to having the cane, but I'm 601 00:39:46,436 --> 00:39:49,116 Speaker 1: going to need a sort of slightly paired yeah, something 602 00:39:49,196 --> 00:39:52,796 Speaker 1: less interesting you need, and it sounds awful to put 603 00:39:52,836 --> 00:39:55,636 Speaker 1: it in those that's the job. And it's like, yeah, 604 00:39:55,636 --> 00:39:57,996 Speaker 1: and I think that's the same you're dead right podcast 605 00:39:58,076 --> 00:39:59,956 Speaker 1: even more so than other things. But even when you're 606 00:39:59,996 --> 00:40:02,636 Speaker 1: scoring music, for theater or film or whatever. Sometimes a 607 00:40:02,716 --> 00:40:05,156 Speaker 1: really interesting bit of music is the last thing you need. 608 00:40:05,196 --> 00:40:06,916 Speaker 1: So I think that's why, you know, the Jewels music 609 00:40:06,996 --> 00:40:09,316 Speaker 1: or whatever, those iconic things that are just like two 610 00:40:09,396 --> 00:40:11,836 Speaker 1: or three notes, you know, are so brilliant because they 611 00:40:11,916 --> 00:40:15,356 Speaker 1: underpin the emotional and the narrative beats of the story 612 00:40:15,476 --> 00:40:17,876 Speaker 1: in such a great way. You know. Yeah, they exist 613 00:40:17,916 --> 00:40:21,116 Speaker 1: in the in the spaces around and yeah, I'm kind 614 00:40:21,116 --> 00:40:25,116 Speaker 1: of really fascinated by how music is absorbed in these 615 00:40:25,156 --> 00:40:29,396 Speaker 1: sort of situations. I mean, honestly, it would. You would 616 00:40:29,436 --> 00:40:31,956 Speaker 1: be horrified if if you took some of the keys 617 00:40:32,356 --> 00:40:35,116 Speaker 1: out of you know, the shows and just listen to 618 00:40:35,156 --> 00:40:39,596 Speaker 1: them in absolute isolation, because they're you know, they're designed 619 00:40:39,596 --> 00:40:42,956 Speaker 1: to work alongside a voice and and and the listener 620 00:40:43,036 --> 00:40:45,436 Speaker 1: kind of goes in and out of it that they're 621 00:40:45,476 --> 00:40:48,156 Speaker 1: not they're not locking onto it. So I don't know 622 00:40:48,156 --> 00:40:49,756 Speaker 1: why I thought of that, just because we were talking. 623 00:40:49,996 --> 00:40:51,876 Speaker 1: We ended up in that area of you know, people 624 00:40:51,916 --> 00:40:54,596 Speaker 1: talking over music. But it's an interesting kind of correlation. 625 00:40:55,036 --> 00:40:57,836 Speaker 1: I wonder if we should play the Gershwin tune next. 626 00:40:57,956 --> 00:41:00,996 Speaker 1: You guys did a version of Man I Lived anything 627 00:41:01,036 --> 00:41:02,476 Speaker 1: you want to say about it before I play no, 628 00:41:02,596 --> 00:41:03,956 Speaker 1: I think if you play it and then we can 629 00:41:03,956 --> 00:41:05,876 Speaker 1: play it. Yeah, and then because particularly as it will 630 00:41:06,076 --> 00:41:08,716 Speaker 1: stick it back in my head. Yeah, okay, let's give 631 00:41:08,716 --> 00:41:21,436 Speaker 1: a listen. What two two three? Oh yeah, we're both 632 00:41:21,436 --> 00:41:26,756 Speaker 1: playing acoustic guitar. And that's actually you hear that. That's 633 00:41:26,796 --> 00:45:02,116 Speaker 1: sort of taste. H h nice performance, very nice. That's 634 00:45:02,156 --> 00:45:04,716 Speaker 1: very That's brought back some really interesting memories to me, actually, 635 00:45:04,796 --> 00:45:07,556 Speaker 1: because you know, we spoke a little bit about the 636 00:45:07,596 --> 00:45:13,196 Speaker 1: idea of reintroduced sing fragility and error, and that was 637 00:45:13,236 --> 00:45:16,356 Speaker 1: a really good case of that, actually, because i'd heard 638 00:45:16,356 --> 00:45:19,556 Speaker 1: the Billy Holiday version of that tune and I really 639 00:45:19,556 --> 00:45:23,956 Speaker 1: wanted to capture that sense of kind of just this 640 00:45:23,996 --> 00:45:26,196 Speaker 1: idea almost that you would start, you would go to 641 00:45:26,196 --> 00:45:28,236 Speaker 1: sing or speak and it might it just might not 642 00:45:28,276 --> 00:45:30,756 Speaker 1: come out. It might not work, you know. And I 643 00:45:30,756 --> 00:45:33,596 Speaker 1: remember when on the first take, you know, Ross, who's 644 00:45:33,596 --> 00:45:36,196 Speaker 1: playing the clarinet on that, you know, just gave this 645 00:45:36,236 --> 00:45:39,276 Speaker 1: beautiful but very sort of confident performance, and I was like, 646 00:45:39,996 --> 00:45:42,356 Speaker 1: can you know, can you possibly sort of play that 647 00:45:42,396 --> 00:45:44,676 Speaker 1: as a little bit more as if you know this 648 00:45:44,876 --> 00:45:47,556 Speaker 1: just might not work, you know, can you can you 649 00:45:47,636 --> 00:45:50,756 Speaker 1: make it much much much more fragile and I think 650 00:45:50,756 --> 00:45:54,676 Speaker 1: he really nailed that. And yeah, and again you know 651 00:45:54,756 --> 00:45:57,516 Speaker 1: that ending that was completely spurred the moment I was 652 00:45:57,556 --> 00:46:00,116 Speaker 1: sort of on my feet and thinking, actually, could be 653 00:46:00,316 --> 00:46:04,396 Speaker 1: quite interesting to have the band just kind of dissipate 654 00:46:04,436 --> 00:46:06,796 Speaker 1: and end up just on the bass. And so so 655 00:46:07,076 --> 00:46:08,876 Speaker 1: that's you know, it's a real case there of kind 656 00:46:08,916 --> 00:46:12,516 Speaker 1: of thing thinking from an underscoring point of view in 657 00:46:12,596 --> 00:46:15,236 Speaker 1: terms of where this is going to end up. That's 658 00:46:15,236 --> 00:46:18,836 Speaker 1: just a quick idea that I had and thought might 659 00:46:18,876 --> 00:46:22,236 Speaker 1: be useful. But it's interesting because it makes it makes 660 00:46:22,236 --> 00:46:25,316 Speaker 1: that ending a very particular and thing, you know, definitely 661 00:46:25,476 --> 00:46:27,796 Speaker 1: challenged with this sort of loneliness and the yeah you know, 662 00:46:27,876 --> 00:46:32,076 Speaker 1: yeah that's solitary voice. It's like, yeah, but it was, Yeah, 663 00:46:32,076 --> 00:46:33,996 Speaker 1: it was an interest. It just really reminded me of 664 00:46:34,036 --> 00:46:37,956 Speaker 1: that of trying to get to that level of almost 665 00:46:37,996 --> 00:46:42,156 Speaker 1: breaking down basically good instincts, because it really felt that way, 666 00:46:42,196 --> 00:46:44,916 Speaker 1: and I think it really was a nice performance for 667 00:46:44,996 --> 00:46:47,516 Speaker 1: that songs. Yeah, and you know, a testament again to 668 00:46:47,596 --> 00:46:50,716 Speaker 1: how all these tunes can be clothed in so many 669 00:46:50,716 --> 00:46:53,636 Speaker 1: different ways. There's a way of playing that that makes 670 00:46:53,636 --> 00:46:56,396 Speaker 1: it sound bulletproof. Absolutely, Yeah, and you can play that. 671 00:46:56,636 --> 00:47:00,956 Speaker 1: There's a Frank Vaniola, amazing American guitar player really kind 672 00:47:00,996 --> 00:47:02,996 Speaker 1: of up tempo version of that that makes it sound 673 00:47:03,036 --> 00:47:05,596 Speaker 1: really sort of joyous and you know a real sort 674 00:47:05,596 --> 00:47:07,436 Speaker 1: of celebration. But yeah, when you play it like that, 675 00:47:07,476 --> 00:47:10,076 Speaker 1: and again, you know, props to Marcus Penrose, you know, 676 00:47:10,476 --> 00:47:12,836 Speaker 1: the bass playing, and that's so beautiful because you know, 677 00:47:12,876 --> 00:47:15,156 Speaker 1: it's a hard role being a bass player in a 678 00:47:15,236 --> 00:47:17,716 Speaker 1: band like this where there's no drummer basically because obviously, 679 00:47:17,716 --> 00:47:20,036 Speaker 1: you know, normally in a if it's a piano trio 680 00:47:20,196 --> 00:47:22,636 Speaker 1: or a bigger band, the bass player and the drummerre 681 00:47:22,676 --> 00:47:25,796 Speaker 1: locking together and you know, the bass players underpinning the 682 00:47:25,996 --> 00:47:28,796 Speaker 1: harmonic movement and the melodic things, but they're also you know, 683 00:47:29,436 --> 00:47:32,436 Speaker 1: reinforcing with the drummer the rhythmic drive the tune. And 684 00:47:32,516 --> 00:47:36,756 Speaker 1: without drums or percussion, you know, that role is basically 685 00:47:36,796 --> 00:47:38,476 Speaker 1: like Marcus on his own a lot of the time. 686 00:47:38,516 --> 00:47:41,036 Speaker 1: You know, sometimes if I'm if myself or Christian are 687 00:47:41,076 --> 00:47:44,276 Speaker 1: doing the you know this the very strict for in 688 00:47:44,316 --> 00:47:47,236 Speaker 1: the bath and you know that's slightly different, but obviously 689 00:47:47,236 --> 00:47:48,996 Speaker 1: we were sort of dropping in and out of doing 690 00:47:48,996 --> 00:47:51,156 Speaker 1: that on the tune, and yeah, Marcus really kind of 691 00:47:51,236 --> 00:47:53,916 Speaker 1: keeps that keeps the game alive, you know. But that's 692 00:47:53,956 --> 00:47:58,916 Speaker 1: really it's really valuable though, because drums against speaking voice, 693 00:47:59,436 --> 00:48:01,156 Speaker 1: you have to work quite hard just to find the 694 00:48:01,236 --> 00:48:05,396 Speaker 1: right spaces you have to whereas this band in that 695 00:48:05,436 --> 00:48:08,556 Speaker 1: format can you kind of just sit underneath the voices. Yeah, 696 00:48:08,636 --> 00:48:10,796 Speaker 1: And because we were trying to keep it kind of 697 00:48:11,436 --> 00:48:16,436 Speaker 1: you know, we weren't slavishly trying to recreate Jango run 698 00:48:17,236 --> 00:48:19,076 Speaker 1: a bit gun to me, yeah, but you know we 699 00:48:19,076 --> 00:48:22,676 Speaker 1: were we were trying to do something with that sort 700 00:48:22,716 --> 00:48:25,396 Speaker 1: of setup. So, you know, two guitars, bass, and then 701 00:48:25,676 --> 00:48:29,036 Speaker 1: various leads read instruments. What happened? That would have been 702 00:48:29,156 --> 00:48:31,716 Speaker 1: what a pretty standard set up in a Yeah. I 703 00:48:31,796 --> 00:48:33,956 Speaker 1: mean the Django the hot club thing is said early 704 00:48:34,036 --> 00:48:37,476 Speaker 1: as two rhythm guitars, one lead guitar, doll bass and 705 00:48:37,516 --> 00:48:41,156 Speaker 1: then usually violin or later clarinet and saxophone. You know, 706 00:48:41,916 --> 00:48:43,636 Speaker 1: So the lack of drums was that what fed that? 707 00:48:43,756 --> 00:48:46,236 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's a very European thing. Again. 708 00:48:46,316 --> 00:48:48,916 Speaker 1: I think it because you know, Django and those guys 709 00:48:48,916 --> 00:48:51,276 Speaker 1: were coming out of Yeah, and they were coming out 710 00:48:51,316 --> 00:48:54,436 Speaker 1: of playing what we now think of as kind of 711 00:48:54,476 --> 00:48:56,396 Speaker 1: gypsy folk music, do you know what I mean? Where 712 00:48:56,396 --> 00:48:59,196 Speaker 1: it was a lot of a lot of guitars, a 713 00:48:59,236 --> 00:49:02,796 Speaker 1: lot of symbol on violin, so it was mostly stringed 714 00:49:02,836 --> 00:49:06,556 Speaker 1: instruments really, you know, so I think that's where that 715 00:49:06,596 --> 00:49:08,476 Speaker 1: came from. And then of course he was, you know, 716 00:49:08,556 --> 00:49:11,356 Speaker 1: hugely influences everyone who's ever tried to play jazz. It 717 00:49:11,556 --> 00:49:13,916 Speaker 1: was and still is by Lewis Armstrong, you know, so 718 00:49:13,956 --> 00:49:17,756 Speaker 1: he was taking some of those rhythmic and melodic ideas 719 00:49:17,956 --> 00:49:21,636 Speaker 1: that Lewis Armstrong was playing on trumpet and literally transposing 720 00:49:21,676 --> 00:49:23,916 Speaker 1: them to the guitar. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. The last number, 721 00:49:23,956 --> 00:49:25,796 Speaker 1: you guys did I found a New Baby? I know 722 00:49:25,876 --> 00:49:29,756 Speaker 1: from the Bend rendition that has great I mean probably 723 00:49:29,756 --> 00:49:31,916 Speaker 1: I was had a flying solo flight, one of my 724 00:49:32,436 --> 00:49:36,636 Speaker 1: favorite Charlie Christian guitar solos. Yeah, how did you guys 725 00:49:36,756 --> 00:49:38,556 Speaker 1: land on this one? Well, again, we were just trying 726 00:49:38,556 --> 00:49:40,556 Speaker 1: to think of other things that were popular at the 727 00:49:40,596 --> 00:49:44,196 Speaker 1: time that a lot of bands would have been playing, 728 00:49:45,476 --> 00:49:49,596 Speaker 1: and again, things with this sort of interesting harmonic sequence, 729 00:49:49,596 --> 00:49:51,796 Speaker 1: because again I found a New Baby's got that as 730 00:49:51,836 --> 00:49:54,356 Speaker 1: a lot of those tunes have got that slight thing 731 00:49:54,356 --> 00:49:59,956 Speaker 1: where it's kind of you know, minor dominant and resolves 732 00:49:59,996 --> 00:50:10,996 Speaker 1: to this kind of pretty major thing, you know, So 733 00:50:11,036 --> 00:50:14,156 Speaker 1: it's got again, it's got both both elements, and I think, 734 00:50:14,196 --> 00:50:16,436 Speaker 1: I mean, that's one of the things Ed was brilliant 735 00:50:16,436 --> 00:50:19,876 Speaker 1: at in terms of you know, because I bow to 736 00:50:20,036 --> 00:50:22,476 Speaker 1: his much greater knowledge of this area of music, but 737 00:50:22,556 --> 00:50:26,556 Speaker 1: he completely locked onto the fact that even when we're 738 00:50:26,556 --> 00:50:29,196 Speaker 1: in doing an up temper number like this, it had 739 00:50:29,236 --> 00:50:32,876 Speaker 1: to contain that little seed of ambiguity. There's a little 740 00:50:33,036 --> 00:50:36,116 Speaker 1: little element of pain, you know, and he was very 741 00:50:36,116 --> 00:50:38,436 Speaker 1: good at sparting tunes that would carry that or I 742 00:50:38,516 --> 00:50:40,436 Speaker 1: just have a little bit of grit in the oyster. 743 00:50:40,476 --> 00:50:43,716 Speaker 1: I suppose you can say harmonically, at least let's listen 744 00:50:43,756 --> 00:50:46,196 Speaker 1: to your guys version, I found a new baby before 745 00:50:46,196 --> 00:51:52,036 Speaker 1: we get out of you all to come Yer might 746 00:51:52,116 --> 00:54:02,996 Speaker 1: have present happened letting nothing better then the one key ending. Nice? Nice, Yeah, 747 00:54:02,996 --> 00:54:06,036 Speaker 1: I mean, I do I love a one key ending. 748 00:54:07,076 --> 00:54:09,356 Speaker 1: I should say, there's like, there's there's there's this that's 749 00:54:09,396 --> 00:54:11,596 Speaker 1: of sea of music that you know, we could have 750 00:54:11,756 --> 00:54:15,996 Speaker 1: picked from. And I know that Ryan, our glorious executive producer, 751 00:54:16,636 --> 00:54:21,236 Speaker 1: had this huge playlist he'd so imbibed the music of 752 00:54:21,276 --> 00:54:23,396 Speaker 1: the era. I mean, he actually sent me the playlist 753 00:54:23,436 --> 00:54:27,116 Speaker 1: on Spotify, and it was it was horrific. It was like, literally, 754 00:54:27,636 --> 00:54:30,676 Speaker 1: I think if I had started listening to it when 755 00:54:30,676 --> 00:54:32,556 Speaker 1: he sent it to me, I would be way past 756 00:54:32,636 --> 00:54:34,476 Speaker 1: retirement by the time I got to the end of it. 757 00:54:34,636 --> 00:54:36,756 Speaker 1: But it was a testament to just how much he'd 758 00:54:36,836 --> 00:54:41,516 Speaker 1: kind of soaked up this music, and he basically I think, 759 00:54:42,156 --> 00:54:44,596 Speaker 1: brought the goalposts in and said like this is this 760 00:54:44,796 --> 00:54:46,356 Speaker 1: is the kind of tune, and this is the area 761 00:54:46,476 --> 00:54:48,236 Speaker 1: we need to be in, which is so you know 762 00:54:48,316 --> 00:54:51,156 Speaker 1: that and that for us is brilliant, and you know, yeah, 763 00:54:51,196 --> 00:54:53,556 Speaker 1: it was a lovely thing to do to be able 764 00:54:53,596 --> 00:54:56,996 Speaker 1: to play that music not in a kind of trying 765 00:54:56,996 --> 00:55:00,796 Speaker 1: to slavishly recreate what's gone before, but trying to keep yeah, 766 00:55:00,876 --> 00:55:05,996 Speaker 1: like you say, this sort of emotional and narrative beats 767 00:55:06,036 --> 00:55:08,556 Speaker 1: of the show going while still trying to actually orner 768 00:55:08,596 --> 00:55:13,556 Speaker 1: that music. Because particularly, I mean, at that point Ryan 769 00:55:13,676 --> 00:55:17,156 Speaker 1: was across the who's the exact producer on the show 770 00:55:17,196 --> 00:55:21,476 Speaker 1: and the rider and everything else. He's across the whole 771 00:55:21,556 --> 00:55:25,076 Speaker 1: kind of narrative ark of it. So there are things 772 00:55:25,116 --> 00:55:26,716 Speaker 1: I just didn't know about the show that he would 773 00:55:26,716 --> 00:55:30,436 Speaker 1: be able to kind of lead into so he definitely 774 00:55:31,076 --> 00:55:33,556 Speaker 1: he basically dumped us in the right ballpark and then 775 00:55:33,676 --> 00:55:36,916 Speaker 1: let us play around. And well, you guys mentioned you 776 00:55:37,036 --> 00:55:39,996 Speaker 1: have a live rendition of a song you can do 777 00:55:40,156 --> 00:55:48,436 Speaker 1: for us. Yeah, together for you this afternoon, just sei undead. 778 00:55:49,036 --> 00:55:54,196 Speaker 1: We thought, you know, be deaf not to Yeah, we 779 00:55:54,236 --> 00:55:57,276 Speaker 1: should do something I didn't play on the sessions. So 780 00:55:57,476 --> 00:56:02,796 Speaker 1: now you get exposed to my get trombone a little bit. 781 00:56:03,196 --> 00:56:04,596 Speaker 1: What are you guys going to do? Do the old 782 00:56:04,716 --> 00:56:08,996 Speaker 1: Gershman standard Old Lady Bid, which I believe it is 783 00:56:09,196 --> 00:56:14,476 Speaker 1: from a musical. I'm not sure some long forgotten Broadway show. Yeah, 784 00:56:15,316 --> 00:56:17,956 Speaker 1: let's see what happens. Can you count as in? Please 785 00:56:18,076 --> 00:59:05,076 Speaker 1: edward A one two, one, two, three four, The greeting 786 00:59:09,956 --> 00:59:14,316 Speaker 1: maybe by SKYL and D. Thank you so much and 787 00:59:14,676 --> 00:59:17,036 Speaker 1: music is beautiful, Thank you, Justin