WEBVTT - Canada’s Rising Star Sticks to Her Guns On Stimulus 0:00:06.040 --> 0:00:08.719 Hello, and welcome to Stephanomics, the podcast that brings the 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:11.639 global economy to you. With something different for you today, 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:15.920 an extended conversation with one of the most impressive individuals 0:00:16.079 --> 0:00:19.720 I've ever worked with, Christia Freeland, a friend who had 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:22.680 a glittering career as a journalist covering the aftermath of 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:25.960 the collapse of the Soviet Union. Wrote three books about 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:29.640 that time, and did several senior jobs for the Financial 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:33.040 Times and Routers in London and New York. They decided 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:34.879 to give it all up to go back to her 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:38.280 home country of Canada and get into politics. That was 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:42.040 barely seven years ago, and now she's Finance Minister, one 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:45.320 of the favorites to succeed the Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:48.320 My interview with Christians going to take up most of 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:50.159 the show this week, but if you listen to the end, 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:53.280 you'll also get to hear why milk and eggs have 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:56.720 both been making news at Bloomberg, So stay tuned for that. 0:00:57.120 --> 0:01:00.320 But now here's the Finance Minister of Canada, Deputy Prime Minister, 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:09.000 Christoph Freedland, Deputy Prime Minister, thank you very much for 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:11.679 being here. Um. I remember when I was at the 0:01:11.680 --> 0:01:14.960 BBC writing a blog about Canada, about the goody two 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:19.040 shoes economy, because they dodged the global financial crisis so effectively, 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:21.360 and you had very sensible banking and you hadn't made 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:24.080 lots of mistakes everybody else's pain. When you look at 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:28.440 how Canada's responded to the pandemic, and particularly I guess 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:34.240 the vaccine rollout, Um, do you regret that Canada hasn't 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:36.800 done better and that somehow the US has managed to 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:41.959 do something right on vaccines that Canada's got wrong? Um so, 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:48.280 looks Stephanie. I would never claim perfection of myself or 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:53.000 of any human being, and I think particularly with COVID, 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:58.320 where not getting things exactly right has meant people dying. 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:03.600 I hope that every politician everywhere in the world, um, 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:06.360 you know, with the possible exception of just into our journey, 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:11.080 should look back and should have moments of thinking, wow, 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:15.120 I wish we had gotten that a little bit more right. Overall, though, 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:19.160 I would say I like the idea of Canada as 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:22.279 a goody two shoes country. We sometimes talk about ourselves 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:26.360 as being voice scouts or girl guides as the case. 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:30.040 Maybe I think that is a good thing in our country. 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:33.119 I would also say where we have done things right, 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:38.760 it has been where we have demonstrated social solidarity UM 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:43.359 and so it's quite striking for me that Atlantic Canada, 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:50.239 which has such strong community ties and a real commitment 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:54.880 to community, has done remarkably well in fighting COVID. You know, 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:58.920 Atlantic Canada is basically the New Zealand of North America 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:02.000 UM and did that by taking some really tough action, 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:06.120 by closing the borders of Atlantic Canada and of provinces 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:09.040 in Atlantic Canada to the rest of the country, and 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:12.160 by having hard lockdowns early on. And I think why 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:14.880 they were able to do that is because of that 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:19.440 strong community spirit. Interestingly, the other parts of Canada that 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:23.480 have done really well are the territories, the Northern territories, 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:27.040 the UK, in the Northwest territories, in Nunavut UM and 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:33.640 again it was solidarity preparedness to close the borders. And 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:37.480 then finally, you know something that maybe isn't noticed outside 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:43.720 Canada is Indigenous people in Canada UM, who have historically 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:50.200 been really hard hit by public health crisis, showed real leadership, 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:56.280 often closing their communities to outsiders, and as a result, 0:03:56.360 --> 0:04:00.320 there has been a really, really effective response to COVID 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:05.320 in indigenous communities. We are now vaccinating at a really 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:09.680 really fast pace UM. In terms of per capita vaccination, 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:12.800 it's in the top one or two or three in 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:15.840 the G twenty, depending on the day. We always knew 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:20.080 it was going to be a challenge, UM because Canada, 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:25.000 as a small country fully integrated into the global trading 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:30.560 system and into the NAFTA North American economy. UM, we 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:36.200 went into this crisis without significant national bio manufacturing capacity. 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:39.720 That has made it challenge to be dependent on the 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:44.560 factories of other countries. But by acquiring a lot of vaccines, 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:48.960 and by getting into that vaccine acquisition race early, I 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:53.040 think we have largely mitigated that. We as a country 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:58.320 have decided we need to be in better shape going forward, 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:01.840 and so the budget may makes an investment of more 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:06.880 than two billion dollars in life sciences and bio manufacturing capacity. 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:10.080 When we met you were you were a journalist. I 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:13.400 was thinking about who were the best known journalist politicians 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:17.000 or journalists who later became politicians, And you'll be interested 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:20.680 to hear the list is Winston Churchill, Boris Johnson, and Mussolini. 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:26.400 U does it does that how does that affect the 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:28.280 way you do your job? Now? Do you think all 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:30.040 that time as a reporter, do you still feel a 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:34.560 little bit like a reporter? Yeah, I I feel I'm 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:36.720 gonna have to think about that list Stephanie and I'm 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:41.200 gonna left on that and for all listeners. Um, Stephanie 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:44.280 and I were baby journalists together, so we've known each 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:46.440 other for a long time, and I've still been a 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:49.520 journalist a lot longer than I've been a politician. Um. 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:53.440 It definitely shapes how I approach my job, and I 0:05:53.480 --> 0:06:01.200 would say, in maybe three principle ways, too generic to 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:04.720 being a journalist and one sort of specific to my 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:08.920 own time in journalism, I still always want to talk 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:11.920 to the people who are at the coal face, and 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:16.240 I want to hear directly from them. I never really 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:20.080 believe that a briefing note can fully capture as much 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:23.760 as a conversation with the people who know stuff directly, 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:27.560 so I continue to do that. The system really doesn't 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:31.400 want politicians to do that. It's just not designed for 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:33.680 politicians to be picking up the phone all the time. 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:35.920 But that's what I believe in doing. The second thing 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:39.839 that has shaped me a lot is at the ft. 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:42.920 When I moved from being a reporter to being an editor. 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:47.479 One of our colleagues it was actually Peter Bruce, who 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:50.679 I remember saying to me, Um, you're an editor now, 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:53.919 and you're going to have to make a hundred decisions 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:57.600 a day, and hopefully more than will be right than 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:00.920 we'll be wrong. But the important thing is going to 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:06.600 be not to be paralyzed by uh, you know, feeling 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:09.080 you need to be perfect. The important thing is going 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:12.080 to be just to make the decisions because otherwise the 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:14.440 paper cannot be published at the end of the day. 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.720 You had to take the information that was coming at you, 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:20.600 absorb it, analyze it as well as you could, and 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:23.600 then make a decision on which story was in, which 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:26.880 story was out, which quote was in, which one was out, 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:30.800 and and not and not be so not be too scared, 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:33.960 not be too scared of making the wrong decision. And 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:41.200 I felt that training was really really helpful in the 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:45.680 heat of COVID, you know, especially last spring. And then 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:49.160 my formative experience as a reporter was covering the collapse 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:54.320 of the Soviet Union and really watching this extraordinary thing 0:07:55.160 --> 0:08:00.920 of a whole paradigm changing and breaking down just in 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:05.200 the course of not even years, but months and days. 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:11.800 Watching it showed me that systems are not eternal, and 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:16.080 systems can change really fast. And in particular, what I 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:20.040 saw was the people who were the most successful in 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:24.000 that transition were the people who were able to see 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:30.320 that it was happening and embrace the transformation and understand 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:33.839 that the greatest risk. It's a little bit like being 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:38.559 a news editor, right that the greatest risk is in action. 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:42.199 And when you when you're in one of those shifting paradigms, 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:52.240 you have to be prepared to act. Arguably, we have 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:55.200 a different kind of slightly slower, but a different kind 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:58.360 of paradigm shift that's happening over the last few years 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:02.560 um in regard to China and how the world looks 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:06.320 at China. And I just wonder whether you feel maybe 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:10.320 there's a risk that you're actually out of step with that, 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:16.640 still carrying the flag for a belief that engagement with 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:19.920 China and gradual bringing of China into the sort of 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:23.959 multilateral liberal economic order was the direction the world was 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:28.920 going to take. And instead now you have clear competition 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:32.200 much more than engagement, and a very muscular China. Where 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:34.319 does your vision I mean are you not changing your 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:38.960 approach fast enough? Oh? Well, definitely. I think a watershed 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:44.480 moment in Canada's relationship with China has been the arbitrary 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:49.240 detention of Michael Coverg and Michael's paybor. Uh. That is 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:56.280 the key issue for our country when it comes to China. Uh. 0:09:56.640 --> 0:10:02.120 These are two really brave Canadian who have been detained 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:08.000 for no fault of their own, and Canadians are really 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:12.760 aware of it. And has that changed your view of 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:16.600 what is possible in terms of future policy with China? 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:19.160 Is this a country that you can do business with 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:23.920 and you can continue to engage with positively? Um? Well, look, 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:28.160 it is a country that Canada and every member of 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:32.040 the G seven and the G twenty does business with. Uh. 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:38.800 So that's a reality. Uh. This is very different from 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:42.600 the relationship of the world's democracies with the Soviet Union, 0:10:42.760 --> 0:10:48.520 for example, UM, where we occupied very separate economic spheres. 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:53.319 But you know in the game. Um. Turning to that 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:58.400 Soviet experience of my own, UM, I have always believed 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:06.800 that shared values are really important and are very important 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:17.040 basis for deep international collaboration. For Canada, those values are democracy, Uh, 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:21.320 they are human rights. There has also there has been 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:25.400 this sea change in attitudes to spending and deficits. President 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:29.720 Biden has proposed six trillion, just under six trillion dollars 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:34.400 worth of spending, three big packages. Um. You talked about 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:37.680 having had your experience in the post Soviet world. You saw, 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:41.199 we saw there how incredibly damaging it was to a 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:44.720 society and economy. Sometimes if you lose control of inflation, 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:47.559 lose control of the economy. Is there a bit of 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:52.360 you that that things were being too complacent about spending 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:54.839 and borrowing in this area and it's all going to 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:57.320 come back to haunt us, not just not just Canada, 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:04.079 but this this change in the global attitude. Um So No, 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:11.560 but I am very careful. I am a Canadian finance minister, 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:18.360 so I am surrounded by economists who are very very careful, 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:24.520 um with our numbers, with our projections, and I'm Canadian 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:28.439 two so that comes naturally to me. And I think 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:29.760 it's a good thing. And I'm going to give you 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:36.280 an example, Stephanie. Um in our full economic statement, we 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:43.040 predicted a deficit for of three one point six billion 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:47.200 dollars and we came in at three fifty four point 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:53.400 two billion dollars. Economy we you know what we we 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:57.440 embrace it. Some people say that we are earnest and boring, 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:01.440 and I say, it's the Median way. It's a good thing. 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:04.880 But the six Biden is not less. It's not being cautious, 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:07.720 and we know that there are people on all sides, 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:10.720 including his supporters, who were worried that the numbers are 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:12.920 getting a bit big. If the US is incautious and 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:17.559 gets into trouble, Canada gets sucked into that. You know, 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:22.800 we talked about paradigm shifts and what shapes your you 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:25.320 know how the lessons of the past shape your actions. 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:29.760 I would say something that has shapes my actions, our 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:34.120 government actions, and based on the conversations around the G 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:37.520 seven table, I can tell you this is shaping the 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:41.720 actions of many G seven ministers. Is actually the experience 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:44.160 of two thousand and eight two thousand and nine, and 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:52.160 I think what most G seven countries feel looking back 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:54.800 on the response to two thousand and eight two thousand 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:59.920 and nine is we didn't do enough and we didn't 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:04.480 recover soon enough from the two thousand and eight two 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:09.040 thousand and nine recession. And it's one reason that I 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:13.800 am very focused on driving a fast and robust recovery 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:17.760 from the recession Canada has today we still have. You know, 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:20.640 we're glad to have had the ten growth in the 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:25.360 fourth quarter of last year, but we still have five 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:29.560 hundred thousand Canadians who either don't have a job or 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:34.400 working fewer fewer hours than they were before COVID that it, 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:39.360 to me is an economic imperative, but also a political 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:42.480 imperative to get them back to work. All of us 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:46.280 politically can reap the whirlwind if we don't, if we 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:51.080 allow economic hardship to fester. And I think a fair 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:56.040 criticism of elites, you know, including financial journalist elites. Um 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:58.200 I was a financial journalist in two thousand and eight, 0:14:58.200 --> 0:15:01.000 two thousand and nine, like you stuff me, And I 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:05.400 think you know, people could quite fairly say uh, in 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:10.320 the recovery, elite did pretty well pretty quickly, but a 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:14.520 lot of regular people were left behind for far too long. 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:18.680 Um I think it behooves all of us to not 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:22.680 let that happen this time. And I remember, Stephanie. I 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:24.480 don't know if anyone ever told you this when we 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:28.880 were baby journalists at the FT, but I remember one 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:31.200 editor saying to me, you know what the difference is 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:34.760 between a recession and a depression. It's a depression when 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:39.640 a journalist's friend loses their job. And something I've been 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:44.200 mindful of in this recession is the kinds of people 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:48.320 who you and I know, Stephanie, white collar people, Um, 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:52.840 have actually been pretty fine. Um. You know. The worst 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:55.720 we've had to deal with is eye strain from zoom 0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:58.480 and certain and you know, having your kids around the 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:01.200 house and them struggling from ice stream from zoom to 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:04.440 One of my children was doing online school today wearing 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:07.360 sunglasses and he said it was because of the glare 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:10.240 from the screen. When we look at the numbers in Canada, 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:12.920 people at the top of the income distribution actually have 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:15.720 more money than they did before the crisis. They've been 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:18.400 saving money. And I would just urge all of us 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:23.000 to remember the K shape also means people at the bottom, 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:26.560 people who work with their hands, have suffered a much 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:29.360 greater health risk. They are the ones who have lost 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:32.920 their jobs. And our economies will be weaker if we 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:36.400 don't help them. But our societies, and at the end 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:39.120 of the day, our democracies will be weaker if we 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:42.920 don't help them too. Robert but Fall and the British 0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:45.920 author he's written about in a slightly different context. He 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:49.960 writes about book called Underland. He talks about unburials, and 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:52.280 he's actually talking about, you know, in the Arctic Circle, 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:55.960 where things have become unburied that people by climate change, 0:16:56.640 --> 0:16:58.680 that people thought were going to be buried for hundreds 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:01.160 of years. I sort of like there's been massive loads 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:03.680 of unburials due to COVID. You know, things have come 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:06.320 onto this surface that we sort of knew were there. 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:09.440 I mean slightly with your if you were still a 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:11.560 journalist and you think about the things that have been 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:17.960 revealed by COVID, maybe permanently changed, you know, what's the 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:20.040 book that you would be writing. What do you think 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:25.400 is the most significant thing about this whole period um. 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:29.600 I think that I would write a book called who 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:34.639 Really is Essential? I think what really? You know, I 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:37.600 think what COVID has shown us is who really are 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:42.160 the essential workers? And you know, again not to sort 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:44.919 of bring it down to sort of needly gritty policies, 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:47.360 but it's one of the reasons it was so important 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:51.240 for me to increase the Canada Workers Benefit UM in 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:53.800 our budget. You know, we all of us have been 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:56.399 going out and saying ya, essential workers, thank you for 0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:58.919 your service. Well, I wanted to thank people for their 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:03.760 service with more money. What I think we've learned, certainly 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:07.280 in Canada and I think around the world, is the 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:12.240 people who are truly essential are very often the people 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:16.760 who are the least well paid, who have the least security, 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:20.680 and I think we need to support them more. And 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:25.840 a corollary to that is we need mothers to be 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:31.560 able to work. Um Our budget makes a historic investment 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:36.320 in early learning and child care. And the reason that 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:39.240 I believe the political window in Canada is open to 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:45.520 do that is with daycares, with schools being closed because 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:50.560 of covid UH, what had been for fifty years a 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:55.440 priority for Canadian feminists themed all of a sudden to 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:59.560 become a real business priority. When there's a childcare challenge, 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:03.000 it's the mother who quits her job. And you know, 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:07.399 we have seen a sharp decline of women's participation in 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:09.879 the labor force. And we all sort of looked at 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:12.919 each other and Cannon said, oh no, this is a problem. 0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:16.360 It's a problem for our economy. So I think we've 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:20.520 learned who is essential, and we've learned that it's essential 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:26.719 to make it possible for parents and particularly mothers to work. Um. 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:29.800 I have to ask you one more question, Um, When 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:32.320 you talk about the good management of the global financial 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:35.440 crisis in Canada, obviously Mark Connie has took some of 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:37.240 the credit for that because he was the gap Bank 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:41.960 of Canada's governor at the time. UM, are you I 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:44.159 see he's kind of stake to claim, as you know, 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:48.640 as being part of the Liberal Party in the recent weeks, 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:51.119 would you support him for prime minister if it came 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:54.680 to it. I support Justin Trudeau for prime minister. I'm 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:57.359 very I'm very privileged to serve in his cabinets. But 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:00.880 Mark is a good friend of mine. He's actually son's godfather, 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:03.880 and uh, we've known each other for a long time. 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:07.680 And actually, uh he was one of the many many 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:10.280 people I talked to as I was putting together the budget, 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:13.359 and I'm grateful for his advice. Are you going to 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:15.000 go out and do a pact at some make a 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:17.080 pact at some point about which of you would run 0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:20.880 if and when there was a vacancy? I really, Stephanie. 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:24.720 I'm wearing a short sleeve, short sleeve dress, so I 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:30.119 can only metaphorically roll up my sleeve. Um, But metaphorically 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:34.960 I would have to say, um, my focus is on 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:40.040 delivering the two hundred and seventy programs we have in 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:42.600 this budget. There is a lot of work to do. 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:48.440 And I really would also say the Prime Minister is 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:53.680 younger than me, he is younger than Mark. He's doing 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:57.440 a really good job and I am very confident he's 0:20:57.440 --> 0:21:01.280 going to lead are party in our government for a 0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:03.879 long time. Well, in your journalist days, you would have 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:06.000 said that was a non denial denial. But it's been 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:08.600 a delight to talk to you and very nice to 0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:18.200 see you. Christian m h. Before we end the program, 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:20.040 I did want to give you a taste of something 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:24.360 completely different, food wars. Elizabeth Elkin covers agriculture for Bloomberg 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:27.760 News in New York, and she's here to explain more. Elizabeth, 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:31.680 thanks for coming on Stephanomics. This was a story that 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:35.399 caught my eye in Bloomberg's Supply Lines newsletter, and you 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:40.720 brought together two stories which showed how changing social morays 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:44.840 causing trouble down at the farm. Tell us first about 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:52.240 those milk wars. Yeah, sure, So, basically, there are currently 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:55.480 flexibilities in the law that are allowing schools to give 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:59.919 kids low fat flavored milk in schools, so basically chocolate milk, right, 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:06.120 and these expire after the school year. So the argument 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:08.720 is that milk is high in nutrients, right, and kids 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:11.600 need nutrients to grow, and they're more likely to drink 0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:14.320 it if it's like chocolate flavored as opposed to just 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:18.880 regular milk. But obviously there's some scrutiny around this chocolate milk. 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:22.720 And you know, all the flavored milks have more sugar 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:24.720 in them, and so you know, there's a question of 0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:28.760 is it better to give kids the milk and have them, 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:31.880 you know, taking those nutrients that they need and get 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:34.879 a little bit of extra sugar, or is it, you know, 0:22:35.160 --> 0:22:37.640 better to just try to give them the non flavored 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:42.320 milk that has less sugar um and um. And obviously 0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:45.720 the dairy industry has a huge investment in this, right 0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:49.119 UH milks applied to American schools is a key source 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:53.040 of demand for the dairy industry um and so two 0:22:53.119 --> 0:22:56.520 big dairy groups have issued a joint statement praising some 0:22:56.640 --> 0:22:59.280 of these lawmakers who are coming out and urging the 0:22:59.400 --> 0:23:02.040 U s d a S Secretary to permanently allow this 0:23:02.160 --> 0:23:06.119 low fat flavored milk in schools. Obviously, parents make the 0:23:06.160 --> 0:23:08.280 same kind of trade offs every day. You know, what, 0:23:08.560 --> 0:23:10.920 how much how hard do I have to try to 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:12.639 get this stuff into my kid? Or should I just 0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:17.000 force feed them? So? How bad are these are these milks? 0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:19.479 Are these milks that probably that many parents would hesitate 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:23.400 to buy themselves because of the amount of sugar in them. Yeah, 0:23:23.520 --> 0:23:25.960 that's a great question. Um. And so in talking to 0:23:26.720 --> 0:23:29.879 like nutrition experts, um, and you know, people who are 0:23:29.960 --> 0:23:34.680 working to get kids and adults better nutrition. Um, there's 0:23:34.680 --> 0:23:39.640 a lot of you know, saying that it's not necessarily 0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:44.440 that bad, right, I mean, the school lunches and meals 0:23:44.480 --> 0:23:47.800 at school are some of the most nutritious meals that 0:23:48.080 --> 0:23:50.920 kids will get. Um. A lot of kids, it's the 0:23:51.000 --> 0:23:53.199 most nutritious meal that they'll get in a day, right. 0:23:53.240 --> 0:23:55.520 And for some kids it's the only meal that they'll 0:23:55.560 --> 0:24:00.720 get in a day. Um. And so dick getting kids 0:24:00.920 --> 0:24:03.680 to come in and eat these meals and drink this 0:24:03.800 --> 0:24:07.120 milk and get these proteins, it's better for them than 0:24:07.280 --> 0:24:10.280 say soda, right, which is something that a lot of 0:24:10.400 --> 0:24:13.399 kids will drink every day. Um. And they're probably having 0:24:13.440 --> 0:24:15.320 a big plate of fries as well as they sit 0:24:15.359 --> 0:24:18.240 down for that school meal exactly. Yeah, So it's not 0:24:19.040 --> 0:24:22.560 necessarily from a lot of people's perspective, you know, this 0:24:23.200 --> 0:24:27.800 can be kind of an overblown issue. But presumably, I mean, 0:24:27.880 --> 0:24:30.960 these these dairy farms would have had a terrible then 0:24:31.000 --> 0:24:33.520 the milk producers would have had a terrible time last 0:24:33.600 --> 0:24:35.359 year when all the schools were out. I mean that 0:24:35.440 --> 0:24:37.280 must be part of this, that that just they feel 0:24:37.320 --> 0:24:41.000 like it's kicking them when they're already done. Absolutely, absolutely, yeah. 0:24:41.119 --> 0:24:44.560 I mean last year people were actually dumping milk when 0:24:44.560 --> 0:24:48.000 schools and restaurants closed because they just wasn't enough demand. Um. 0:24:48.080 --> 0:24:51.440 And so this this has been a really tough last 0:24:51.560 --> 0:24:56.240 year for the dairy industry. Schools are obviously incredibly important 0:24:56.640 --> 0:24:58.880 for dairy's demand. What do you think is going to happen? 0:24:58.880 --> 0:25:01.320 There is the Biden illustrations. Does it seems sort of 0:25:01.920 --> 0:25:04.480 pro milk? Well, the head of the U s d 0:25:04.840 --> 0:25:07.040 U s d A came out and said, um, in 0:25:07.160 --> 0:25:10.879 a hearing that this was a really important issue that 0:25:11.080 --> 0:25:13.920 kids need more nutrition and that kids need more dairy 0:25:13.960 --> 0:25:18.440 in their diets. And so I think it's a good possibility, 0:25:18.680 --> 0:25:21.320 especially because you know, more than fifty members of the 0:25:21.359 --> 0:25:25.680 House of Representatives came out urging the Secretary to to 0:25:25.840 --> 0:25:29.199 do something about this um to permanently allow these low 0:25:29.240 --> 0:25:32.119 fat flavored milks and schools. And that is, you know, 0:25:32.320 --> 0:25:36.600 people from across the aisle. Its Republicans, it's Democrats. This 0:25:36.680 --> 0:25:38.400 seems to be an issue that a lot of people 0:25:38.440 --> 0:25:42.200 agree on that kids need more nutrition. Sells to be 0:25:42.480 --> 0:25:46.119 talked to. There's there to day. I would imagine that 0:25:46.320 --> 0:25:49.320 it probably will be, but we'll have to wait and see. Now, 0:25:49.400 --> 0:25:51.400 the other thing coming down the track for milk producers 0:25:51.840 --> 0:25:54.960 is a big shift away from dairy altogether due to 0:25:55.160 --> 0:25:58.919 not just health but but environmental concerns. And I did 0:25:59.000 --> 0:26:01.359 see that the other day. It shares in Oakley, the 0:26:01.480 --> 0:26:05.880 world's biggest oat milk maker, jump nearly on their first 0:26:05.960 --> 0:26:08.520 day of trading, and they valued the company at twelve 0:26:08.640 --> 0:26:12.840