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Speaker 1: Being a black person on the Internet, you just anticipate that.

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Speaker 2: There are no girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 3: As a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridge

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Speaker 3: tad and this is there are no girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 3: When Elon Musk took over Twitter, many users left the

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Speaker 3: platform searching for alternatives, and one platform that gained attention

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Speaker 3: early is blue Sky. At first glance, blue Sky looks

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Speaker 3: a lot like classic Twitter, short posts, replies, and reposts,

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Speaker 3: but underneath, it's very different because blue Sky is built

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Speaker 3: on a decentralized system, meaning no single company controls your

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Speaker 3: data or the network. Folks on blue Sky can choose

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Speaker 3: the algorithms that shape their feeds, and developers can build

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Speaker 3: their own versions of the app. Blue Sky has become

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Speaker 3: kind of a unique space online. Some users associate it

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Speaker 3: with more progressive voices, and the most followed individual on

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Speaker 3: blue Sky right now is AOC. As of August twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty five, blue Sky had just under forty million registered users,

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Speaker 3: and just last week, the Trump administration joined the platform,

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Speaker 3: posting can't wait to spend more quality time together. Unsurprisingly,

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Speaker 3: absolutely no one wanted this, and according to the blue

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Speaker 3: Sky block tracking site, clear Sky The White House is

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Speaker 3: now the second most blocked account on blue Sky, just

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Speaker 3: behind Vice President j d Vance. Controversial moderation decisions have

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Speaker 3: led some to wonder if Blue Sky is just another

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Speaker 3: version of the same old social media battles, but the

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Speaker 3: platform's decentralized nature has allowed for powerful pockets of community

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Speaker 3: to emerge, like black Sky, a custom feed and moderation service,

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Speaker 3: gradually becoming a key space online for black folks. To date,

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Speaker 3: black Sky is the largest and most successful effort to

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Speaker 3: take advantage of Blue Sky's decentralization, and it's all being

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Speaker 3: led by Rudy Fraser, a technologist who was committed to

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Speaker 3: building resilient, independent infrastructure that can be a home for

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Speaker 3: black voices. During a session at right Sex Tech, the

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Speaker 3: growing community form that brings together technologists and movement leaders

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Speaker 3: to explore the intersections of technology and power, I had

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Speaker 3: the chance to sit down with black Sky founder Rudy

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Speaker 3: Fraser to talk through blue Sky, Black Sky, and the

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Speaker 3: future of Black voices online. I want to start with

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Speaker 3: a question, Am I the only one that is kind

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Speaker 3: of feeling a bit I guess I would say burnt

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Speaker 3: out by our current social media and technology landscape. Don't

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Speaker 3: get me wrong, I don't want to get kind of

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Speaker 3: caught up in false nostalgia for the old days. I

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Speaker 3: know social media has never been perfect, but to me

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Speaker 3: lately it feels like a slog And I remember when

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Speaker 3: Elon Musk took over Twitter.

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Speaker 2: I had all of these deep, deep, fond.

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Speaker 3: Memories of cutting it out on the og black Twitter.

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Speaker 3: Some of my best days spent procrastinating at my office

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Speaker 3: job on the.

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Speaker 2: Computer were spent on black Twitter.

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Speaker 3: And so it was very tough for me to kind

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Speaker 3: of accept that that time was over and I probably

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Speaker 3: was not going to be experiencing these feelings of genuine

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Speaker 3: connection and joy and humor and community on a social

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Speaker 3: media platform run by Elon Musk, right, And so as

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Speaker 3: we think about the future of social platforms, today's conversation

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Speaker 3: really invites us to, I guess, do a bit of

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Speaker 3: speculative world building, imagining what it would take to unbreak

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Speaker 3: social networks and rebuild online spaces rooted in things like care, dignity, connection, community,

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Speaker 3: and freedom. Now, to get into all of this, we'll

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Speaker 3: be speaking to Rudy Fraser. Rudy is a technologist, community organizer,

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Speaker 3: and the founder of Black Sky algorithms where he develops

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Speaker 3: open source infrastructure that lets communities shape their social media experience,

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Speaker 3: govern their own data, and fund their collective needs. In

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Speaker 3: this conversation, we'll be packling questions like how does Blue

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Speaker 3: Sky reimagine the role of a public square online compared

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Speaker 3: to legacy platforms like Twitter or x or whatever we're.

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Speaker 2: Calling it these days.

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Speaker 3: What does community ownership of data mean in practice? And

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Speaker 3: how could it transform our relationship to digital platforms? And really,

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Speaker 3: where do we see opportunities for decentralized platforms to resist

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Speaker 3: things like harassment, surveillance and disinformation Rudy, I know that

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Speaker 3: these are questions that you spend I would assume a

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Speaker 3: fair amount of time really wrestling with.

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Speaker 2: So I want to kick it over to you.

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Speaker 3: I have been following along with a conversation happening, so

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Speaker 3: I know that it has been an interesting few weeks

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Speaker 3: over at Blue Sky and Black Sky. But before I

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Speaker 3: get into all of that, I want to take it back.

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Speaker 3: What were your early experiences like on social media? Like

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Speaker 3: where did you go online to experience things like joy

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Speaker 3: and connection and community?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Hey, Bridlett, So I would say the platforms I

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Speaker 1: think of are not platforms folks like consider social media platforms,

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Speaker 1: I think of early I do think of like early

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Speaker 1: internet forums. I was big into video game moding and

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Speaker 1: and kind of like hacker culture at a young age,

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Speaker 1: and so like those old video game modding forms like

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Speaker 1: seven sins, I felt like that was I don't know

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Speaker 1: that that was where I find community and online gaming.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've made the same way I make friends

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Speaker 1: on Black Sky and Blue Sky and then meet them

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Speaker 1: in person is the same experience I used to have

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Speaker 1: as a teenager playing online video games. Yeah, and so

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Speaker 1: that and then I think my traditional social media experience

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Speaker 1: was very much folks who already kind of knew online

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Speaker 1: like Facebook, MySpace era, and yeah, just being able to

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Speaker 1: stay in touch with people like family members across the

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Speaker 1: world that my family's from Guyana and South America, I

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Speaker 1: can stay in touch with them via face book stuff

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Speaker 1: like that.

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Speaker 3: I gotta say, the kind of person that is the

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Speaker 3: person that you just described who was making internet friends

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Speaker 3: using technology and you know, old school platforms, and then

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Speaker 3: was like I'm going to go meet these people in person.

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Speaker 3: That's a unique personality type.

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Speaker 1: I feel, hm, I feel like it's so normal now

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Speaker 1: I met my you know, like my wife we got

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Speaker 1: married last year. We met on bumble and so, like

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Speaker 1: the I feel like it's become where it used to

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Speaker 1: be strange. I feel like internet culture is very just

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Speaker 1: like ingrained in at least a certain generation. There's like

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Speaker 1: rappers who are constantly wrapping about things that happen on

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Speaker 1: the Internet, and you know, and so yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: it's like become it's it's it used to be a

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Speaker 1: weird thing, like it used to be like a weird,

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Speaker 1: separate world. Now I feel like a lot of us

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Speaker 1: understand that it is. It's a part of how we

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Speaker 1: stay connected with people.

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Speaker 2: Totally.

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Speaker 3: You were I feel like you were an early to

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Speaker 3: be clear, you were like an early adopter of that.

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Speaker 2: I have a very clear memory of being quite young.

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Speaker 3: And a teacher in my school met her husband on

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Speaker 3: an online dating site and it was the biggest scandal

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Speaker 3: in our town.

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Speaker 2: And now it's so commonplace.

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Speaker 3: It feels like that level of connection that you were

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Speaker 3: seeking on those early days of social media and platforms

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Speaker 3: like that, you were an early adopter for what would

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Speaker 3: become commonplace today in twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And I think I had like relatives

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Speaker 1: who were very you know, folks like a lot of

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Speaker 1: my closest friends and family members, they're like creatives, and

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Speaker 1: so they were using those social media platforms to try

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Speaker 1: to like build their careers on. And so I think

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Speaker 1: I also got inspired a little bit like that.

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Speaker 3: So you mentioned that you, you know, experienced the sort of

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Speaker 3: social media platforms that we were all probably on MySpace

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Speaker 3: side note, there was no better platform.

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Speaker 2: That's how I learned how to code.

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Speaker 3: When you went to my MySpace page, a panic at

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Speaker 3: the Disco song played very loud, and then the pause

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Speaker 3: button was hidden, So I was like, no, you were

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Speaker 3: gonna listen to this Panic at the Disco song? It

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Speaker 3: would definitely crash your browser with like falling glitter stars.

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Speaker 2: So I loved those platforms as well.

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Speaker 3: I'm curious about your journey with more sort of traditional

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Speaker 3: social media platforms. When you were on platforms like Twitter,

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Speaker 3: was there a moment or a red line that made.

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Speaker 2: You say, no more, this is not gonna work for

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Speaker 2: me anymore.

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Speaker 1: I actually came to this work from a different place.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of funny, like I was never really big

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Speaker 1: on Twitter. I was. I used it early on and

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Speaker 1: to like follow like like artists and stuff, like that,

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Speaker 1: but I never actually encountered myself the kinds of like

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Speaker 1: challenges you would face from like having a big platform

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Speaker 1: on those spaces. So I kind of came I think

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Speaker 1: that probably maybe helped in some ways because I came

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Speaker 1: into working on Black Sky with just like fresh eyes

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Speaker 1: in terms of what are the what are my expectations

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Speaker 1: of how a community should work, And that was heavily

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Speaker 1: influenced by my in real life organizing work, and so

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Speaker 1: I tried to like replicate the things that I was

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Speaker 1: seeing and experiencing in real life because for me, like

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Speaker 1: I guess, bigger than just like the apps, it's the

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Speaker 1: kind of like this kind of definition of community I

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Speaker 1: have that is between like mutual accountability. And before working

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Speaker 1: on Black Sky, I was working on a project called

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Speaker 1: paper Tree that was a way for folks to kind

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Speaker 1: of practice mutual aid and that'sy be able to pool

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Speaker 1: funds together and be able to buy like pay for

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Speaker 1: each other's groceries essentially. And so in kind of as

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Speaker 1: I kept doing mutual aid organizing and learning about mutual aid,

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Speaker 1: I thought it was very I wanted to technology was

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Speaker 1: my thing, and so that was the way that I

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Speaker 1: saw myself fitting into too that world and not wanting

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Speaker 1: to be like their techno solutionists person who's like I'm

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Speaker 1: going to like, you know, revolutionize mutual aid by like

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Speaker 1: building some app. It was more like I just wanted

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Speaker 1: to like find my way of being seen and being

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Speaker 1: able to contribute to what I saw as a movement

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Speaker 1: that kind of came out of twenty twenty here in

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Speaker 1: New York where I'm based at and building. Yeah, like

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Speaker 1: you kind of find that, like social media is actually

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Speaker 1: a really great place both for real life community to

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Speaker 1: be developed and for people to even practice like these

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Speaker 1: kinds of like care practices like mutual aid. But it's

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Speaker 1: the it's it's then seeing that you can't really do

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Speaker 1: something like that in the traditional platforms, right. It's more

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Speaker 1: that like that I saw with this new wave of

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Speaker 1: decentralized social media protocols, I saw an opportunity to be

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Speaker 1: able to like execute against that.

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Speaker 4: Let's take a quick break at our back.

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Speaker 3: It's so interesting to me that you say that the

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Speaker 3: way that your expectations for what being on a social

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Speaker 3: media platform could feel like should feel like we're really

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Speaker 3: rooted in your ir L experiences around things like mutual

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Speaker 3: aids So for you, what are the expectations that you

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Speaker 3: have in your mind for what it can feel like

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Speaker 3: or be like to try to find community on social

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Speaker 3: media platforms. What is that experience like for you? And

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Speaker 3: what have you taken from your work and mutual aid

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Speaker 3: to inform that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the Internet is interesting because there's and

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Speaker 1: there's people who have like all different kinds of like

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Speaker 1: philosophies and ideas around how the Internet should work. I think,

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Speaker 1: for one, I take like a you know, I think

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Speaker 1: there's some people who view, for example, that like there's

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Speaker 1: this like instrumentalist kind of view of technology, where technology

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Speaker 1: is it is kind of like impartial, it's non biased.

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Speaker 1: It can't be you know, it's it's a hammer is

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Speaker 1: just a hammer, And I kind of reject that. I

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Speaker 1: think tools tend to better, they tend to like align

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Speaker 1: with power structures, and they benefit they benefit someone usually,

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Speaker 1: and they harm they often harm someone usually. And so

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Speaker 1: I think in real life organizing you start to acknowledge

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Speaker 1: some things like that. You also kind of you also

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Speaker 1: recognize that there's this like kind of philosophy that like

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Speaker 1: every cook can govern, but like really anyone can can contribute.

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Speaker 1: There's not it's not like there's there's maybe specialized knowledge

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Speaker 1: that's needed to set up technical infrastructure, but there's a

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Speaker 1: role that everyone can play in like content moderation, in

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Speaker 1: community building, in getting people into physical spaces together, like

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Speaker 1: event planning. It's like a thing that I'm not really

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Speaker 1: good at that there's folks in the community who are

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Speaker 1: good at. There's folks in the community who are creators

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Speaker 1: who are like like that idea that everyone can come

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Speaker 1: in and just as long as you make it so

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Speaker 1: that this is not like this closed off thing that

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Speaker 1: you own that like you have this kind of abundance

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Speaker 1: mindset that there's enough to go around that everyone can

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Speaker 1: play a role that I think that some of that

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Speaker 1: is the kind of thing that influences and I do

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Speaker 1: think you get that from like community forms where it

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Speaker 1: was like, you know, there was a space created and

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Speaker 1: then people came in and gave that space value, and

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Speaker 1: then those people were rewarded with reputation and respect to

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Speaker 1: a degree, you know, and like that's the thing you

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Speaker 1: can get on the Internet. There's like a kind of

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Speaker 1: respect capital that gets associated with with someone. People sometimes

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Speaker 1: use that with like followers or they try to like

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Speaker 1: hack it with followers, but there's kind of a you know,

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Speaker 1: we pour a lot into our online identities and then

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Speaker 1: you know, part of the problem is that you don't

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Speaker 1: actually own that identity, like a corporation owns that and

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Speaker 1: they can just take that handle away from you at

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Speaker 1: any point they could shut your account down or if

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Speaker 1: they want to. But yeah, and so those fun the

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Speaker 1: mentals I think are some of the things that like

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Speaker 1: you see that in like in real life organizing where

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Speaker 1: you're doing work and then people, you know, that kind

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Speaker 1: of brings people in and they make it their own

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Speaker 1: and then it becomes this new thing. That's kind of

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Speaker 1: how I think of like spaces created online.

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Speaker 3: Boy you said it, and especially you know, maybe one

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Speaker 3: day a billionaire buys the platform where you've spent most

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Speaker 3: of your time building up your capital and followers and

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Speaker 3: relationships and connections, and it's not a fun place to

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Speaker 3: hang out anymore. So that's just that maybe something us

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Speaker 3: what happens.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, I think that can happen in

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Speaker 1: real life spaces as well. But yeah, like trying to

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Speaker 1: how do you build the stuff that makes that less

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Speaker 1: possible exactly?

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Speaker 2: Let's talk about that.

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Speaker 3: So give us a so I'm curious what drew you

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Speaker 3: to looking at decentralized platforms. And for folks who might

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Speaker 3: not know, can you give us sort of a quick

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Speaker 3: and dirty rundown of decentralization.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So so the analogy I give a lot of

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Speaker 1: analogies with this stuff. I'll give an analogy for decentralization

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Speaker 1: in general, and then I'll give one for decentralization and interoperability,

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Speaker 1: which are big big words. But then and then then

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Speaker 1: one specifically for app protocol. So decentralization, I would say,

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Speaker 1: is like a lot of folks, you know, put together,

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Speaker 1: are used to buying furniture from some store Ikia target wherever,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, and then like it, often there's an

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Speaker 1: Alan wrench you know that that like hexagon shape that

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Speaker 1: you use to screw in the bolts together.

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Speaker 4: Uh.

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Speaker 1: Usually it's funny. They usually send a lot of Alan

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Speaker 1: wrenches with like a lot of the furniture you put together,

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Speaker 1: and then if you keep them, it can work on

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Speaker 1: the next thing that you buy. And so that's that's

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Speaker 1: an example of interoperability. All these if you think about it,

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Speaker 1: all these people who produced this furniture decided that they

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Speaker 1: were going to use the same hexagon shape and you know,

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Speaker 1: now the tools work between each other. That's an example

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Speaker 1: of interoperability and decentralization, where like decentralization like kind of

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Speaker 1: requires interoperability. It requires for two things to be able

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Speaker 1: to work together without those two people speaking. And right

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Speaker 1: now it's like you can't you cannot, you can't be

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Speaker 1: on Instagram. Like let's say you were just on Instagram.

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Speaker 1: You can't from your Instagram account dm someone on Twitter.

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Speaker 1: You can't export you can export your data in a

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Speaker 1: lot of these places, and then it's just like a

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Speaker 1: dead set of data, like you can't take that and

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Speaker 1: put it anywhere. You can't leave and keep your followers. Right,

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Speaker 1: that's how they that's how they get you. And folks

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Speaker 1: call this like a walled garden, and so decentralization eliminates that.

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Speaker 1: It makes it so that you have some kind of

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Speaker 1: data portability. You can pick up where you were, and

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Speaker 1: if you don't like it anymore, you can take it

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Speaker 1: somewhere else. And then you still have your your identity

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Speaker 1: stays the same, you still have your followers, you still

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Speaker 1: have your posts. You didn't lose anything, you're just under

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Speaker 1: new management. And so so that's like decentralization broadly, and

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Speaker 1: then there's lots of different ways people have approached designing

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Speaker 1: decentralized systems. You know, the one that I the space

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Speaker 1: that I work in is particularly at protocol, which the

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Speaker 1: experience of that from a user is like if every piece,

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Speaker 1: if you download a social media app, if you download

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Speaker 1: blue Sky, for example, everything is ran by different It's

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Speaker 1: one app, but everything is ran by a different company.

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Speaker 1: You could have downloaded blue Sky, you could have downloaded

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Speaker 1: something else another app. Skylight is another example. They're like

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Speaker 1: a TikTok version of blue Sky, and your account will

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Speaker 1: work with both. You can sign up on either in

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Speaker 1: your account will work with both, and then you know,

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Speaker 1: then there's your social media feed, right, Folks are usually

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Speaker 1: used to just like a following feed and then a

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Speaker 1: kind of recommendation algorithm, a for you page, a discover feed.

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Speaker 1: Blue Sky may come with those by default, and then

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Speaker 1: you can switch to another algorithm or feed that was

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Speaker 1: designed by someone else. So we have ones designed specifically

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Speaker 1: for showcasing black content. There's a trending version, there's a

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Speaker 1: chronological version, there's a there's a TikTok like version of videos.

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Speaker 1: There's one for just images like Instagram and uh and yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then if you encounterure some harmful content, you can

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Speaker 1: choose who your moderators are. You can choose where your

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Speaker 1: data is hosted. That is, that's the experience of at

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Speaker 1: protocol and I think where it comes into like the

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Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier that there's been a lot of stuff

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Speaker 1: going on in the in the ecosystem. Uh, there was

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Speaker 1: an incident that I addressed yesterday where a user who

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Speaker 1: was he had his account hosted by black Sky, but

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Speaker 1: he was suspended from Blue Sky. Uh. And so folks

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Speaker 1: are kind of had the reaction of like, well, what's

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Speaker 1: the point then of decentralization If you can be you

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Speaker 1: can maybe move your account, but then they can like

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Speaker 1: they can this other company can still suspending You're still

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Speaker 1: subject to the moderation rooms of the other company. But

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Speaker 1: it's really like the way app protocol is kind of

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Speaker 1: set up is that your data. It's if you imagine

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Speaker 1: publishing as an example, Right, you're a writer and you

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Speaker 1: want you write a manuscript, right, the PDS or some

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Speaker 1: of the infrastructure black Sky runs is a safe space

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Speaker 1: to store your manuscript. But then Blue Sky, what they

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Speaker 1: also had running is kind of this the distribution it

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Speaker 1: is the It's kind of like the Barnes and Noble,

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Speaker 1: the bookstore, the publishing house, the thing that gets your

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Speaker 1: manuscript from just your hands into the hands of millions

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Speaker 1: of people. And so this person was banned from the

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Speaker 1: bookstore essentially, but even though he was banned from the bookstore,

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Speaker 1: there are different apps that people have built that instead

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Speaker 1: of going to the bookstore to find the manuscript, it

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Speaker 1: goes directly to the author. So that's kind of the

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Speaker 1: example of like what decentralization can allow. You can still

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Speaker 1: maintain your data and your ownership and not have it

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Speaker 1: deleted because typically when Blue Sky, if you're only if

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Speaker 1: you're only on the Blue Sky infrastructure and they suspended you,

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Speaker 1: they would also delete all your data. But so some

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Speaker 1: of these conversations around data sovereignty is that like you

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Speaker 1: should be able to maintain your identity. An app can

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Speaker 1: suspend you because they have their rules right. They may

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Speaker 1: you may just be promoting something that they don't want

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Speaker 1: to help distribute to millions of people. That's their right.

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Speaker 1: You basically have freedom of speech but not freedom of reach.

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Speaker 1: Is kind of the example that folks talk about, like

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Speaker 1: you know, that's why. And there's other ways that can

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Speaker 1: kind of explain how that plays out in the ecosystem.

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Speaker 1: But you really should always be able to publish whatever

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Speaker 1: you want. And then but people who govern certain spaces,

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Speaker 1: like blue Sky governs their space, Black skuy governs our space,

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Speaker 1: those organizations and anyone can start that up. You know,

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Speaker 1: it takes some technical infrastructure or some money, but like

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Speaker 1: you can start to create the spaces and to kind

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Speaker 1: of design the experience you want in there without infringing

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Speaker 1: on other people's you know, ability to speak.

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Speaker 3: I was quite surprised at how people reacted to that

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Speaker 3: user that you described their experience on the platform, and

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Speaker 3: I wondered, do you think that users are Do you

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Speaker 3: think that response was rooted in a sort of anxiety

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Speaker 3: about the kind of things that maybe are the reason

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Speaker 3: why they left Twitter for Blue Sky or other platforms

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Speaker 3: in the first place, That concern about how these platforms

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Speaker 3: are moderated and what's showing up their means. Like, I

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Speaker 3: was genuinely surprised at the reaction to what you just

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Speaker 3: described happening, And maybe you weren't surprised.

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Speaker 2: But what do you think was going on there?

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Speaker 1: There's a there's a lot. I think there's some folks

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Speaker 1: who say, like, I think I agree with some people

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Speaker 1: in the ecosystem that's like model is your product, like

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Speaker 1: if you like in a traditional social media experience, their

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Speaker 1: business model is ad driven, right, And so that's why

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Speaker 1: the experience of a social media app kind of plays

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Speaker 1: out the way it does because they need they make

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Speaker 1: money by having you scroll the feed and stay on

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Speaker 1: their app or as long as possible. That's why TikTok

404
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Speaker 1: is super addictive. They've done it's all weird to say

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Speaker 1: they've done a great job at their algorithm, but they've

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Speaker 1: they've done a great job of keeping you glued to

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Speaker 1: the screen. Twitter also has that for folks. And there's

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Speaker 1: like a ton of research. There's like books written. I

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Speaker 1: have a book here called like hook, like people have.

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Speaker 1: There's people have done research on how to keep you

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Speaker 1: addicted to and to these applications. It's science, and so

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Speaker 1: that's why they keep you locked in. They don't want

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Speaker 1: you to be able to leave. They don't want you

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Speaker 1: to be able to take your data. They want you

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Speaker 1: to be able to keep scrolling. In a decentralized protocol,

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Speaker 1: you don't have the same incentives like so the users

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Speaker 1: are not the product. In that case, you have to

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Speaker 1: find some other revenue stream. And so like blue Sky,

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Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of when there's an absence

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Speaker 1: of information, people fill that in with assumptions their own anxieties.

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Speaker 1: Like you mentioned, so people are like, how will blue

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Speaker 1: Sky make their money? So we don't know, you know,

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Speaker 1: probably blue Sky doesn't know, and so people fill that

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Speaker 1: in with like are they training are they taking our

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Speaker 1: data to like train an AI model? Are they are

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Speaker 1: they trying to pander to like these right wing conservative folks,

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Speaker 1: Like why are they doing that? Like all these different

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Speaker 1: things kind of come into play because things are not

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Speaker 1: made explicit. Uh, it's kind of like I'm sure there's

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Speaker 1: some theory of this. There's like the tyranny of structurelessness,

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Speaker 1: where it's like there's if there's like a vacuum or

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Speaker 1: like an unclear there's no clarity around a power structure

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Speaker 1: of power stars which are kind of forms. It's just

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Speaker 1: a little unaccountable. I think the same thing kind of

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Speaker 1: happens with like the fact that there's no clear business

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Speaker 1: model and things like that, and so people just kind

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Speaker 1: of fill in those blanks. So for me, I wasn't

438
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 1: as surprised because a lot of the users who were

439
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 1: on blue Sky as well, they vibrated from Twitter, and

440
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:25,400
Speaker 1: so I think some of them without even really recognizing

441
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 1: they thought it was blue Sky was just Twitter but

442
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 1: ran by you know, not Elon. And so the expectations,

443
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 1: like the user education, there's a lot of stuff that's

444
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 1: like not there. So a lot of what I just

445
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 1: tried to do that seem to have gotten positive responses

446
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 1: for is just try to like break things down for people,

447
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 1: be really clear, be really transparent, be really honest about

448
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 1: where stuff is at, and like what we're planning to

449
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 1: do next.

450
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 2: That makes a lot of sense.

451
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 3: I was one of those people who just thought, screw

452
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 3: Elon Musk, I'm going over to the Twitter that he

453
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 3: doesn't own. And then someone was like, oh, you should

454
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 3: try mask it on if you're looking for a decentralized experience,

455
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 3: and that didn't work out for me, But like there

456
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 3: is I think there has been a user education piece

457
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 3: of it that I think your work at black Sky

458
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 3: has been so instrumental in being a foundation of can

459
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 3: you walk us through black Sky how it works and

460
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 3: what makes it different from centralized platforms.

461
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 1: So if you visit black sky dot Community, which is

462
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 1: our web app, that's where you could sign up for

463
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 1: an account, and you'll notice immediately that like if you

464
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: want to, it looks similar to blue Sky, which looks

465
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 1: similar to Twitter, but it's branded as our thing. And

466
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 1: when you create an account on blacks dot dot community,

467
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: you will be under the black Sky terms of service

468
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,400
Speaker 1: and privacy policy. You'll have a handle that's like bridget

469
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,919
Speaker 1: dot blacksky dot app, for example, but the feed that

470
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: you see immediately is black Sky, the black Sky community itself.

471
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: So this is an algorithm that is just of the

472
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: black users on the platform who've opted in voluntarily to

473
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,640
Speaker 1: be a part of black Sky as a community. From there,

474
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 1: you know, and I think even just stopping there, if

475
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: you can imagine, we sometimes get this question from folks

476
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 1: of like what will stop black Sky from being overran

477
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: by bad actors? And I think the last two years

478
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 1: of us running the platform has been the demonstration of that,

479
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 1: the like we can't stop you can't stop other people's hate,

480
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: but we have. We've put up a really good fight.

481
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 1: I would say I've been docks by white supremacists because

482
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 1: of my work on black Sky. We've had people try

483
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: to like raid the feed and do all kinds of

484
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 1: crazy things, but we built in systems to actively prevent

485
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 1: that harm. And not only do we have the automated

486
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 1: systems to do that, we also have a team of

487
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 1: all black moderation team, you know, very familiar with with

488
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 1: the the kind of context that we work within that's

489
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: always there, and so folks, folks feel attended to, folks

490
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: feel heard. The We strike this balance of trying to

491
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: create a space where you can have fun and like

492
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 1: not care about all this super technical like all this

493
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,120
Speaker 1: infrastructure that we're running in the background, but we're there

494
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,400
Speaker 1: when you need it, right, So like we're there when

495
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 1: you want to speak truth to power and then you

496
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 1: feel like Blue Sky the company may censor you for

497
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:36,919
Speaker 1: that right or take your account down. We're there. You know,

498
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 1: if you encounter there's maybe there is some bad actor

499
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 1: that rolls up and they're like, what the fuck is

500
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: Black Sky. You know, we can you can still do

501
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 1: the like three hundred quote posts on that person, like

502
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 1: feel free, but you could also just quietly and discreetly

503
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,360
Speaker 1: hit the report post button and our team will will

504
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: handle that and yeah, and then all your data is

505
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: hosted by us, So that's just all governed by ours

506
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 1: and for us, we're looking to like the next thing

507
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 1: that we want to do is kind of create these

508
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 1: community only spaces. So I believe that you should have

509
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: control over your speech on these platforms, like be able

510
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 1: to modulate your speech. So right, like every time you

511
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 1: make a post, it's kind of a megaphone.

512
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 4: You know.

513
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 1: Sometimes for me, I'm trying to whisper and it ends

514
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: up being a shout because there's no really there's no

515
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 1: way to distinguish that I maybe replying to someone, and

516
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 1: then people will be like, oh, he was saying this

517
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 1: really low key. I'm just like, yeah, I was trying

518
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: to just say this to this one person. I guess

519
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: I should have the ended, but but yeah, and so

520
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 1: we sometimes you want to just speak to a more

521
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: closed off group of friends. On other platforms, you have

522
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: the opportunity to do stuff like private posts. In the

523
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: way the protocol is designed, you enter into these tricky

524
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: situations where things that should be obvious are just difficult

525
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 1: to do. So like boost in ship with private accounts,

526
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: you can't like lock your account down to just be

527
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: you know, just your followers. We're introducing something that will

528
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: allow you to like be able to make public posts.

529
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: You can speak to the megaphone because like sometimes it's

530
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: weird misunderstanding that like we just want to like create

531
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: another bubble for people that I don't think that's true.

532
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: I think people have group chats, right, you have one

533
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 1: on one conversations with friends. Sometimes you have a group chat.

534
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: We're trying to create a big group chat where you

535
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 1: can come in and be a part of a community

536
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: and meet people. And you'll have that and then you

537
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: we also have created a platform for you if you

538
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: really want to speak to thousands of people, Like there's

539
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: been millions of people who have viewed the Black Sky feeds.

540
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,719
Speaker 1: This is also your way to get an audience. You know,

541
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: whether there's it's some important issue, you just want to

542
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 1: make some jokes, you want to build a following, whatever

543
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: that whatever that thing is, like you should have these options.

544
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: We want to give people options that keep them allowed

545
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 1: them to have fun and be able to also you know,

546
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: not face harassment when they want to speak out against

547
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 1: white supremacy and then ultimately too like we really want

548
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: to create in a long term, we want to become

549
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: like the Reddit frapp protocol. We want to be able

550
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: to anyone can come. People have been inspired by our

551
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: work already, there's Latin Sky we're you know, doing the

552
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: not even using our tools, but replicating how we do things.

553
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: Because there's a barrier to that, right there's today there's

554
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 1: a barrier to like using the stuff that we've built.

555
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: All of our code is open source. It's very transparent.

556
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 1: You can you can jump in and contribute to the

557
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 1: code if you want to to written a rust. That's

558
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: also another barrier. We're trying to break down the barriers

559
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: we want. We want the most amount of people to

560
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: be able to participate and co create this with us

561
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 1: as possible. Uh you know, but but yeah, so we

562
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: want we want people to go to come and take

563
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: their communities. Latin skuy that North Sky has followed in

564
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 1: our footsteps and they're doing similar things for the LGBTQ community.

565
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: And yeah, and so we want anyone to be able

566
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 1: to just come in and take our tools quick a

567
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: button and then get a whole community infrastructure and community

568
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 1: app setup that is not closed off. It's still like

569
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: it has a quiet space for your community, and then

570
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: it has a you also have this like public global

571
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 1: social media infrastructure, so you know, you can still we

572
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: like like app protocol wants to get to four billion

573
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: people whatever number of Facebook has, but on a decentralized

574
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 1: protocol that no one knoweds And so that's the vision,

575
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: that's the goal.

576
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 3: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it, Rudy,

577
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 3: I did have a question for you. I think it's

578
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 3: somebody mentioned this in the chat, and I do think

579
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 3: it's worth kind of plus plusing the way that you

580
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 3: were very intentional about things like moderation from the beginning

581
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 3: of starting this process. And I've often wondered, is there

582
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 3: a bad lens to be had between scale and making

583
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 3: the biggest platform that you can have with the most

584
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 3: amount of users and saying, well, there might be some

585
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 3: value in intimacy, there might be some value in us

586
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 3: intentionally curating a smaller set of users. Do you have

587
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 3: is there is there a tension with what you're doing

588
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 3: at Black Sky in that Yeah.

589
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: I talk about this and some presentations I give where

590
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: I think there's you know, you mentioned Macedon. I think

591
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: Macedon is a good example. If you want like maybe

592
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: one hundred people in a community and you want like

593
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: infrastructure that's like owned by you, and then maybe you

594
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: selectively connect with some other one hundred person communities and stuff.

595
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: I think that's good. Uh, that is a use case.

596
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: I think we want to have the fun the like

597
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: the funnest block party in the city is kind of

598
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: the experience, and I think that needs a lot of people.

599
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: And so I think for the kind of experience and

600
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 1: stuff that we want to build, I think you need

601
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: to be looking to scale. You know, we spend a

602
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: lot of money and time on creating scalable infrastructure for communities.

603
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: Blacks di again has been used by millions of people,

604
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: and we want to help out the other folks, you know.

605
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: I think that's why I use Reddit as the example,

606
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: Like there are some breadits that are used by millions

607
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: of people, Like that is the It's it's a technically

608
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: challenging thing to do that though as a decentralized service.

609
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: So that's where there's some of the technical tensions.

610
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 3: Uh.

611
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: There's also moderation challenges. I think after a certain number

612
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: you do encounter like there's there's a question that's come

613
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 1: up in the community that we're working through to resolve.

614
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,479
Speaker 1: But like moderation, people are very anti AI. But what

615
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,719
Speaker 1: do you do when you have one hundred thig people,

616
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: like one hundred thousand images and videos being uploaded to

617
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 1: a platform every month. A lot of them are going

618
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 1: to be sexual content, and you have to be able

619
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: to distinguish against like what's not okay or at least

620
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 1: just even this label that content so that people. So

621
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 1: then end users can make their choice of like do

622
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:20,839
Speaker 1: I want to see sexual content? Do want a HI day?

623
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 1: Do you want to have a blur of to the

624
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: warning label? People get that control on that protocol, and

625
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: so I think some of that is a bit of

626
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 1: attention because some people are like, well someone should manually

627
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: review all those images, and it's like, well, then you

628
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: have to have then you have to have a smaller space.

629
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 1: And so I think like we want we don't want

630
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: to be like we don't want to just have like

631
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 1: the billion person one space, billion person in this space.

632
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 1: We do want to foster communities of millions of people,

633
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: and I think we can. I think you can do

634
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,919
Speaker 1: that with the with the tools that we've created. There's

635
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 1: also like one thing we didn't talk too much about,

636
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: but like we want our It's weird that people make

637
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: community guidelines but their communities don't influenced the guidelines. And

638
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 1: so that's something we did where we try to co

639
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 1: create our community guidelines with our community. We have this

640
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: tool called the black Sky People's Assembly that is a

641
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: deliberation tool where people can weigh in submit statements. So

642
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: we had one was like what should be our community guidelines,

643
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: and six hundred people submitted over I think about five

644
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: hundred statements of what should go into our community guidelines,

645
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: over twenty thousand votes submitted on the different things of

646
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 1: like what people agree with, what people disagree with. So

647
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 1: these are the things where it's like, you know, if

648
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,320
Speaker 1: you were if you want to do this at scale,

649
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 1: there's tools that need to be built to allow you

650
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,760
Speaker 1: to do this kind of decentralized community governance at scale.

651
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: I think that's just a very interesting space for us

652
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: to work here.

653
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that speaks to the question that we

654
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 3: got from John who says it's worth highlighting that black

655
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 3: Sky is incredibly unusual complimentary for focusing on moderation upfront

656
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 3: and having a moderation expert as a core member of

657
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 3: the team. How many other social networks have ever done that.

658
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 3: I don't know any Rudy, I don't know if that's

659
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 3: a question that you have any insight into, but I

660
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 3: do think it highlights exactly what you were just speaking

661
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 3: about the importance of having these decisions be things that

662
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 3: are bought a very early on and foundational to the

663
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 3: experience of being on this platform.

664
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that comes from like, honestly, I mean

665
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 1: that's more like sometimes I think people have this like

666
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: superficial understanding of like why Black Sky is important. And

667
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: I think that, like being a black person on the Internet,

668
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: you just anticipate that, you know, like you just anticipate

669
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: we will get attacked. And so for me, I'm always

670
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 1: just like, Okay, I know this is going to happen,

671
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 1: so I'll have a plan for when it happens, and

672
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: then when it happens, then I can just immediately drop

673
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: the thing. Like we have a feature called band from

674
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 1: TV that stops people from being able to view the

675
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: Black Sky Feed, and I knew that that was going

676
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 1: to be a thing that we were going to want

677
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: to do at some point. And then there was an

678
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 1: issue where people were like trolling the Black skyfeed to

679
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: find they weren't posting to the Black skyfeet but they're

680
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: finding people and then harassing them. So it was like, oh,

681
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: like now this is happening, so now let me ship this.

682
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: And that was like the second month that we were

683
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 1: in operation of the Black skyfeed. So it happened. It

684
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,439
Speaker 1: all happened very quickly, but we've been battle tested over time,

685
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 1: and then, yeah, I've always wanted our community moderators. There's

686
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 1: folks who used to work at places like TikTok, There's

687
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,359
Speaker 1: people who worked at doing trust and safety there, there's

688
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 1: folks who have done research on misogynal war shouted doctor K. Yeah.

689
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: So we've got a team of folks who all have

690
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 1: done community moderation in other spaces before and now do

691
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: it for Black scot They've done it for Masterton, etc.

692
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 3: It kind of makes me I haven't took a bittersweet

693
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 3: thing to hear you describe this, because on the one hand,

694
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 3: what a tired story that it's like, oh, you're a

695
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 3: black person or some sort of a traditionally marginalized person

696
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 3: in a digital space, get ready.

697
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 2: For harassment, you know.

698
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 3: But also part of me is like, well, I'm glad

699
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 3: that people in charge have that historical and cultural knowledge

700
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,479
Speaker 3: or that they didn't have to go through the thing

701
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 3: of being like, oh, we are shocked this happened and

702
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 3: are not prepared for it, which I feel that so

703
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,360
Speaker 3: often is the case on social media platforms where people

704
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,280
Speaker 3: don't necessarily have that cultural background.

705
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:24,240
Speaker 2: Do you know what I'm saying?

706
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, there's always like, yeah, the shocked Pikachu face

707
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: every time someone abuses your platform. It's just like I

708
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: don't know, like we I don't know even what practice

709
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: of I don't know. I always find it dishonest because

710
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 1: like even if you're if you put a server up

711
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 1: on the Internet, it's getting scanned by like attackers immediately,

712
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 1: like and so this just kind of like defensive posture

713
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 1: without having it take without having it be a burden

714
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 1: of you know, we still have this. We have a

715
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: move fast break chains ethos at Black Sky, which is

716
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: that like, like I think there are some folks who

717
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: are like, I don't know, there is a lot going on,

718
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 1: or there's always this, uh so there's kind of like

719
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: a move slow ethos. Sometimes with social justice spaceism, I'm like,

720
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 1: if you believe the problems are urgent, I feel like

721
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 1: you should move fast, Like if you think that like

722
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: we're in like late stage capitalism and we're under fascism,

723
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 1: Like why would you be chill about that? And so

724
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 1: that's why we want to build things as quickly as

725
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 1: possible for like private spaces for people, for people to

726
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 1: be able to yet fuild communities, send money to each other,

727
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 1: practice mutual aid because we think it's urgent. And then

728
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: there's the break change part, which is that like we

729
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: are going to be encounter We know that we are encountering,

730
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 1: like we're fighting an uphill battle, and we should just

731
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 1: be prepared for that, like you kind of just kind

732
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: of know what comes with it. My own team sends

733
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: it back to me, it's like you named your you

734
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 1: name the company Black Sky, Like it's gonna like get attacked.

735
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, can you this is a personal question. Can you

736
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 3: put move fast and Break chains on a T shirt?

737
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 2: For me? Or perhaps some so, I mean soon soon?

738
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 1: How these shirts?

739
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 3: I mean that that doesn't even One of my kind

740
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 3: of questions is how do you think about balancing things

741
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 3: like freedom of expression with genuine, meaningful, community driven safety

742
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 3: in decentralized environments.

743
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think of uh, I think of their people

744
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 1: often because of I Like, I guess there's some people

745
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: who have this like understanding of like okay, well you

746
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 1: know black Scott, so it will be attacked. There's like, uh,

747
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:47,359
Speaker 1: there's issue, there's like outside attackers, right, and then there's

748
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 1: community conflict, and I think of like the outside attackers

749
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,799
Speaker 1: we have generally you know, knock on wood. But like

750
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 1: so far has been a solve problem for us. The

751
00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 1: really interesting challenges do come with Okay, now there's intracommunal conflict,

752
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 1: not intercommunal, intercommunal, and so it's like, do you something

753
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 1: there's you know, like generally our approaches to be hands off,

754
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:19,399
Speaker 1: like let the community sort itself out, because conflict can

755
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 1: be generative at times as long as folks aren't demonstrating

756
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: forms of like internal internalized anti blackness or or misogynal war.

757
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 1: You know, as long as you aren't breaking our community

758
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,719
Speaker 1: guidelines again, which we develop with the community. So like

759
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 1: now there's going to be things around like fat phobia

760
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 1: and and like and and and all these other protections,

761
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: but as long as you are following the community guidelines,

762
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,959
Speaker 1: go off. You know, we want to be we want

763
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 1: to leave space for people to get creative, have fun

764
00:41:55,880 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: sometimes you know, sometimes sometimes the jokes are a dicks,

765
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: so someone but I think there's still like I think

766
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 1: that's still like a worthwhile experience that you can have

767
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 1: in a communal space and then you brush it off,

768
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 1: you come back the next day.

769
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 3: And it's a kind of I mean, haven't we all

770
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 3: been roasted by our cousins where it's like, or are

771
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:15,319
Speaker 3: you laugh a little too hard at a joke?

772
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 2: And someone is like, I know you're not laughing and

773
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 2: you're like, oh no.

774
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 1: They got it, Like I posted by listening to the

775
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 1: young Thug and someone was like, I hope you heal

776
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 1: And I'm like, do you know I can't. I'm like,

777
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 1: even I'm getting cooked on my own app So.

778
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,959
Speaker 3: And I think, I mean having folks who know folks

779
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 3: who know our communities at the helm is important. This

780
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 3: is gonna be a weird analogy, but there's a scene

781
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 3: in the movie Mean.

782
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 2: Girls with the popular girls. They all have to.

783
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 3: Have like a like a girl student wide me like

784
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 3: needing to discuss tensions, and the popular girls realize, oh,

785
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,280
Speaker 3: the drama girls have their own little, you know, conflict.

786
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 3: In the softball team, they have their own little conflict.

787
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 3: Then there's all these other little micro conflicts in these

788
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 3: communities that people might not know the norms that dictate

789
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 3: those communities that you just sort of have to let

790
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 3: them talk it out and work it out amongst themselves

791
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 3: because that's the only way they're going to get anywhere.

792
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:14,439
Speaker 3: It kind of seems like that of there is some

793
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 3: value in just sort of letting folks settle being tensions

794
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 3: and conflict in their own community via their own norms

795
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 3: that like you might not necessarily know the ins and

796
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 3: outs of.

797
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that, like, I think that's like

798
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 1: super important. Community norms are Like sometimes people are like,

799
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 1: what's this hard and fast rule that you're going to

800
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 1: put in place to stop this thing from happening. I'm like, well,

801
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,839
Speaker 1: I feel like we have norms for that. Like there's

802
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 1: there's laws, and then there's norms. And I don't want

803
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: to make a law for like something that could just

804
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 1: be resolved with a norm and the community should organically

805
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:57,240
Speaker 1: come up with that community norm to like enforce that behavior.

806
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: And yeah, and I think that, like you, yeah, you

807
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: see that within in real life groups all the time,

808
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:11,879
Speaker 1: like that that conflict resolution is uh And I think

809
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 1: you have to draw a line. You have to be

810
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:15,359
Speaker 1: able to draw a line around a space, So there's

811
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 1: a question around here about like the public square conversation,

812
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 1: and I've I really I think the public square is

813
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 1: somebody else's problem. I am trying to create community spaces.

814
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 1: I'm trying to make the hangout spot. And you know,

815
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 1: we got some bouncers here. We got uh you know,

816
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,840
Speaker 1: they're just on the outside garden the door. Folks on

817
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 1: the inside are figuring themselves out. We have some music playing.

818
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 1: We want and and you know, and it's a voluntary association.

819
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:48,839
Speaker 1: You want to you want to come kick it with us,

820
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,720
Speaker 1: Come kick it with us. That is what we're trying

821
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: to solve for. And then you also have like maybe

822
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 1: a mega uh you know, we have like I guess

823
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:58,439
Speaker 1: a loud speaker outside if you want to go reach

824
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 1: everybody else feel free. But the public square has been

825
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: dominated by people trying to fight it out in the

826
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 1: marketplace of ideas and algorithms like trying to influence people

827
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 1: in all kinds of ways and so like that is

828
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 1: a different problem that someone else may be trying to solve.

829
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 1: But I'm trying to solve for communal spaces where you come,

830
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:16,439
Speaker 1: you have a good time.

831
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:19,879
Speaker 2: More.

832
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 3: After a quick break, let's get right back into it.

833
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 3: This conversation is all about sort of how we are

834
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:41,399
Speaker 3: trying to unbreak social networks. How do you think Blue

835
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:46,280
Speaker 3: Sky helps move us more toward those community centered digital spaces.

836
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 1: I think that Black skies more so the ones like

837
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 1: helping to demonstrate what that can look like. I think

838
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: Blue Sky wants to invest more into the creation of

839
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 1: commune unity. There's been conversations about like turning kind of

840
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 1: following again following and offert steps of like combining a

841
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 1: feed with a moderation service and then calling that like

842
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 1: a particular space and so there's a place where you

843
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:15,959
Speaker 1: can go you can post to a feed. I think

844
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: there's like some of that work being done. I'm personally

845
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 1: really there's some like under explored areas with a at

846
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 1: protocol in Blue Sky that I'm that we're interested in,

847
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 1: Like we we just we just got this fellowship, this

848
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: cipherpunk fellowship to help kind of develop private payments, you know.

849
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: I think that's a very I think it's again practice

850
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 1: of mutual aid. It's important Black Sky as a community

851
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 1: have done that for a while from the very beginning.

852
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 1: But then also creators being able to like monetize their content.

853
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 1: There's someone on on Black Skuy who the name is ni.

854
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 1: Every every day they post like a they call it

855
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 1: question Sky and they post like these like twenty questions

856
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 1: that people all quote post and reply and it's always

857
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 1: like a different theme and then they end it with

858
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 1: like their cash app, and so like people should be

859
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 1: able to like help, you know, support the creators in

860
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 1: there in these spaces, and then like you know, sex

861
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 1: workers as well should be able to be able to

862
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 1: monetize their content without you know, worrying about all kinds

863
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,320
Speaker 1: of restrictions that could end up being placed on them.

864
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:29,479
Speaker 1: The other thing is reputation so verification. The conversation around

865
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 1: this has subsided a little bit, but folks were a

866
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: little disappointed that Blue Sky's model for verification ended up

867
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 1: being that like blue Sky gives out the blue checks.

868
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 1: There are more interesting versions of this that could be

869
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 1: built out with like web of trust kind of models.

870
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 1: So basically, like I think of like, I really I

871
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 1: don't think it's perfect, but Reddit's karma score is very interesting. So, like,

872
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 1: are there ways for you to create a decentralized is

873
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 1: reputation system for people? Because I do think that like,

874
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 1: once you online identities cost nothing to create and so

875
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:10,399
Speaker 1: there should be some way for you to be able

876
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:14,360
Speaker 1: to build up reputation on against a certain identity over

877
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 1: time and know that this is like a trusted a

878
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 1: trusted thing they have like domain, Like you can like

879
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:25,719
Speaker 1: make your domain your handle on blue scar and that's

880
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 1: like that was like the original form of verification. So

881
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 1: you know, fake CNN dot BSk dot social is clearly

882
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 1: distinguished from CNN dot com or like rudipraser dot com

883
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: versus fake Rudy dot Biski dot social. But I think

884
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 1: there's like more that could be explored there, and I

885
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 1: think communities can verify people like it. You know, I've

886
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 1: always like Black Skys should be able to hand out

887
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 1: verifications so like key members of their community badging, you know,

888
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: being able to say that like I'm a sucker for

889
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 1: like get hub, you get a certain amount of stars,

890
00:48:58,000 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 1: you get like a gold medal, you get a silver medal.

891
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 1: Being able to incorporate stuff like that, like if you're

892
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 1: a black Sky supporter, be able to show like a

893
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 1: badgering and profile. I think stuff like that is really

894
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 1: cool and interesting to build, to be able to take

895
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 1: to basically build on the decentralized identity layer, which is

896
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:18,280
Speaker 1: like way in the background for a lot of people,

897
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,439
Speaker 1: but there's interesting stuff there. There's a meeting with someone

898
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 1: from the Applied Social Media Lab, where I was a

899
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 1: fellow earlier this year. They want to work on verified credentials,

900
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 1: so you can basically say that like connect to your

901
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 1: Blue Sky identity to this account on Instagram and Twitter

902
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:36,279
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. So I think that's those are

903
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 1: like interesting spaces to work on.

904
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:41,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm curious, do you see all of these so

905
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 3: both with the success of Black Sky and then the

906
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 3: smaller decentralized platforms and communities popping up, do you see

907
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 3: this as the way of the future that we genuinely

908
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 3: can help reset or unbreak kind of our default settings

909
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 3: and default learnings of social media platforms and what they

910
00:49:59,320 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 3: can be.

911
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's a strong signal there. Even even Facebook,

912
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 1: to their credit like build threads and they're trying to

913
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 1: integrate with the fediverse. I think there is. It's like

914
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 1: a half hearted attempt, but I do think that like

915
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 1: that's acknowledgment that you know, maybe that's like Zuckerberg in

916
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 1: the back of his head, like not wanting to be

917
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:21,879
Speaker 1: disrupted in the future. But yeah, I think it lets

918
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:28,279
Speaker 1: you unlock way more creativity around around the stuff that

919
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:33,239
Speaker 1: you're that you're doing, being able to like and I've

920
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 1: been asked a lot about like our niche online spaces

921
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 1: the future of social media. I want, I personally want

922
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 1: it both ways. I want you to be able to

923
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 1: have a cozy corner to hang out in and for

924
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 1: you to be able to because organize again with organizing

925
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:52,319
Speaker 1: right like we have we We the People NYC, which

926
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:54,799
Speaker 1: I'm a lead organizer for, is a mu mutual aid

927
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:57,800
Speaker 1: group in New York. We have a like one hundred

928
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 1: person signal group chat where we're like organizing and talking

929
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:03,720
Speaker 1: about stuff. And then we like if like the cops,

930
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 1: you know, arrest us at our mutual aid distro, we

931
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 1: then do want to post on Instagram and TikTok and

932
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 1: get one hundred thousand views because that's what brings the

933
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 1: news crews around and then we can like get our

934
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:16,919
Speaker 1: message out and you know, and so like, I think

935
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:19,799
Speaker 1: you need both. I think you need private spaces and

936
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 1: you need to be able to have like a global reach,

937
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 1: especially if you think about internationally, like folks who are

938
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 1: like facing like these real life crises around the world.

939
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 1: Like they they need a global reach. They need people

940
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 1: who understand their context, right, Like if you think of

941
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:45,319
Speaker 1: like Facebook's role in genocides globally like meandmar and stuff like,

942
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:48,359
Speaker 1: some of that was because there are the moderators did

943
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 1: not have a local context and they didn't have the tool.

944
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 1: They had the option to use the tools to translate it,

945
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 1: but they didn't, Right. And there's like a world where

946
00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:01,320
Speaker 1: you know, there weren't seeing this yet, but we're actually

947
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 1: we're actually seeing with the europe I guess there's some

948
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:06,360
Speaker 1: folks trying to create Eurosky. There's like building tools that

949
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 1: are specific to the regulations and norms of your physical

950
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 1: geolocation and then still being able to reach everyone around

951
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: the world. You know, I do think that is the future.

952
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean I want to sort of click

953
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 3: into that because you know, I think back to all

954
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 3: the different very impactful social and political movements that were

955
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 3: started on social media platforms, things like me Too, things

956
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:38,759
Speaker 3: like Black Lives Matter, the racial justice, autriety uprisings that

957
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 3: we saw in twenty twenty. Do you think that have

958
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 3: we Because in some ways what you're saying makes me

959
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,279
Speaker 3: feel hopeful. I sometimes get a little pessimistic and think, oh,

960
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 3: we'll never see another global movement pop off on social

961
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 3: media as effectively as we once did. But when you

962
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 3: were speaking, I thought, maybe it won't look like it did,

963
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 3: or maybe it won't be on the platform that it

964
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:03,239
Speaker 3: happened in in twenty twenty or twenty sixteen, But that

965
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:04,720
Speaker 3: doesn't mean it can't still happen.

966
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 2: What do you think about that?

967
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's nowhere near those other movements, But

968
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 1: like the Tesla takedown thing did start on blue scar

969
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 1: look like a blue Sky post, and then I do

970
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 1: think that it won't look like how they did it,

971
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 1: how it looked in the past. I think I think

972
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 1: it will look differently. I can't speak for the early

973
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:36,040
Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter protests that started on Twitter, but I

974
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:39,320
Speaker 1: do know that, like I do know how it felt

975
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 1: for like twenty twenty in the George Floyd uprisings, and

976
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 1: we did use Instagram, Like Instagram kept me informed on

977
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:48,319
Speaker 1: lots of things. Instagram is still like useful for a

978
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 1: lot of that and like getting people out in the street.

979
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 1: But I think I do like, I don't know how

980
00:53:56,320 --> 00:54:00,840
Speaker 1: it will look, but people are actually matter of we

981
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:05,439
Speaker 1: have current examples Nepal. They're like using tools like Jack

982
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 1: Dorsey's Bitchat, the one of the noster devs like shared

983
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:14,239
Speaker 1: this chart that's like he he knows that he knows

984
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:17,120
Speaker 1: when there's a social uprising because he sees like installs

985
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:20,319
Speaker 1: from certain locations with like the Bitchat installs go out.

986
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 1: So like me and mar had a bunch of installs

987
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 1: recently because they have are not me, I'm sorry, Matta

988
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 1: Gascar had something going on recently Nepal like they they

989
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,840
Speaker 1: also the Neapolo Journal was interesting because like I wasn't

990
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:37,359
Speaker 1: they voted in their prime minister like in discord and

991
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:40,919
Speaker 1: so like, you know, I'm like for meo, like why

992
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 1: didn't they I think that's like a damning thing, Like

993
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 1: why didn't they use these other so called decentralized social

994
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:51,560
Speaker 1: media platforms like to do that on you know, And

995
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:53,759
Speaker 1: so I think there's a lot there that is like

996
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 1: under explored. So yes, I don't think it will look

997
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: the same.

998
00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:00,799
Speaker 3: What is giving you hope about building the the healthier

999
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:03,240
Speaker 3: community centered online spaces these days?

1000
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 1: I'm always just really everyone that's joined the team has

1001
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 1: joined like voluntarily or like the fact that like people

1002
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:14,880
Speaker 1: just kind of come into Black Sky like make it

1003
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 1: their own. There's a very common narrative I think in

1004
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 1: like like particularly like white tech circles that like the

1005
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:25,720
Speaker 1: founder is just like visionary who like charts this course

1006
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 1: and like really I think of first myself as just practicing,

1007
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 1: you know, like being influenced by the black radical tradition

1008
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 1: and being influenced by my cultural upbringing and like literally

1009
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:39,799
Speaker 1: like how I grew up, as like the way I

1010
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:43,840
Speaker 1: think about the stuff that I build and seeing people

1011
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 1: then come into Like someone made a fellowship to get

1012
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:49,840
Speaker 1: people to get Black Sky members to the app protocol

1013
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:53,240
Speaker 1: conference earlier this year. Shout out to Linda there. Otherwise

1014
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:55,399
Speaker 1: I would have probably been one of the two black

1015
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:57,760
Speaker 1: people there if it wasn't for Linden and the fellows.

1016
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 1: One of those fellows became is now like a core

1017
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:03,440
Speaker 1: team member. The other fellow has been like a contributor

1018
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 1: to our documentation which has helped other people learn about

1019
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:11,120
Speaker 1: the tools. There's folks who have built like entire applications

1020
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:14,440
Speaker 1: for us, and some of this tool called safe Skies.

1021
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 1: That is a way for us to even further decentralize

1022
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 1: our moderation so that the other moderators on the team

1023
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 1: can come in and control the feed, the algorithm of

1024
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 1: the feed, and so like the I'm like and just

1025
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:33,280
Speaker 1: being able to have this kind of like black Tech project,

1026
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 1: open source all the ethos behind it, and see that

1027
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 1: reach people and see how that inspires them to like

1028
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:43,720
Speaker 1: how it changes them a bit. It's that's what keeps

1029
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:45,200
Speaker 1: me going and makes it worth it for me.

1030
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 2: Wow, what a beautiful vision.

1031
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:51,160
Speaker 3: I mean, I started this conversation saying that I wasn't

1032
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:54,839
Speaker 3: feeling great about our current social media landscape and tech landscape,

1033
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 3: but ending it there with what's making you feel hope,

1034
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 3: what's giving you motivation and what keeps you in this

1035
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:03,480
Speaker 3: work and in this fight that we all know sometimes

1036
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 3: can feel.

1037
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 2: Like uslog I think is really beautiful.

1038
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:12,279
Speaker 3: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or

1039
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 3: just want to say hi? You can read us at

1040
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:16,960
Speaker 3: Hello at tegody dot com. You can also find transcripts

1041
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 3: for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No

1042
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 3: Girls on the Internet was created by me bridget Toad.

1043
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:25,360
Speaker 3: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative. Jonathan Strickland

1044
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 3: is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and

1045
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:31,960
Speaker 3: sound engineer. Michael Almato is our contributing producer. I'm your host,

1046
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 3: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate

1047
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 3: and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

1048
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 3: check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

1049
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:41,920
Speaker 3: get your podcasts