Speaker 1: Yeah, my name is Clay and Nukeleman. This is a
Speaker 1: production of the bear Grease podcast called the Bear Grease
Speaker 1: Render where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind
Speaker 1: the scenes of the actual bear Grease podcast, presented by
Speaker 1: f HF Gear, American made purpose built hunting and fishing
Speaker 1: gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places
Speaker 1: we explore. I'm like, you say something announcement Grease Podcast.
Speaker 1: I think it would be appropriate to describe our external
Speaker 1: environment today when I walked, when I took the long
Speaker 1: track from our house and see the World Headquarters or
Speaker 1: also known as me Either South Um. I it was slick,
Speaker 1: there was active sleep, ice fawling, and for Arkansas, you know,
Speaker 1: it takes about well none of that for us to
Speaker 1: cancel today bright and early, because yeah, because it was
Speaker 1: misty outside, and I thought it was a good call.
Speaker 1: It's a misty in here, oh, I think, And so
Speaker 1: it was. It's just really, really, really bad, bad icy weather.
Speaker 1: I just came back from Mexico last week and when
Speaker 1: I got home from Mexico, on the way home, there
Speaker 1: was like six inches of snow. It was we were
Speaker 1: at six thousand feet elevation in Mexico, freezing cold. Luckily
Speaker 1: Clay read like a part of the memo and brought
Speaker 1: a jacket. Like you know, it's almost one of those
Speaker 1: deals where it's like I don't need that much clothing,
Speaker 1: but I did very cold, So I came home to
Speaker 1: bad weather and life statement for Class six seven, eight
Speaker 1: days later. It's like very icy right now. So a
Speaker 1: lot of I've been a lot of places with the
Speaker 1: Newcombs where some member of their family didn't have a
Speaker 1: coat jacket. It's yeah, partly why we have such an
Speaker 1: eclectic group of people. You've heard a few voices that
Speaker 1: you wouldn't have recognized, and you've not heard some voices
Speaker 1: that are typically here. Gary the Believer Newcomb, it's a
Speaker 1: it's about a three hour drive, two and a half
Speaker 1: hour drive Arkansas, the state of Arkansas. Brent Reeves, we
Speaker 1: told him not to come, and so we have some
Speaker 1: some very new folks. Missy Newcombs here, Josh Lambridge, Spillmakers here.
Speaker 1: Josh introduced your guests. So a very special guest that
Speaker 1: I'm honored to introduce and honored to have been married
Speaker 1: to for almost twenty five years, Mrs Christie Spielmaker. Christie
Speaker 1: it's so great to have you, Christie. Thank you. This
Speaker 1: is a this is a long time dream of mine. Dad.
Speaker 1: Christie Spielmaker on The Bargeras Render Podcast. We've tried. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you wouldn't know it, but we've tried a lot. So
Speaker 1: very We're so happy you're here, Christie. I'm so happy
Speaker 1: to be here. Yes, yes, And we've known the Spilmakers
Speaker 1: for decades, so we've raised our kids side by side
Speaker 1: with the Spilmmakers, traveled and so I can't wait to
Speaker 1: hear what you have to say about two Come. So
Speaker 1: I'm very for those. It's possible that people are new
Speaker 1: to our podcast, The Bargeras Podcast. We are. We are
Speaker 1: a documentary style history, anthropology, hillbilly hunting, conservation, musical playing podcast. Um.
Speaker 1: But every other week we have a group of people
Speaker 1: that comes together for the Beargreas Render, which is what
Speaker 1: you're listening then to where we talk about the last
Speaker 1: week's episodes. We're going to talk about two comes apart.
Speaker 1: Two so great, Christie. My guest, well, I have two
Speaker 1: guests here, Misty and I have two guests here. Our
Speaker 1: first guest is Jessica Uwllen, our dear friend of many
Speaker 1: decades as well. Jessica. Yeah, hey, I I came. I
Speaker 1: stayed the night at Jessica's house for the first time
Speaker 1: when I my sixteenth birthday, I think, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: seventeenth birthday, that was my first time. Yeah, I still
Speaker 1: remember sitting in the basement living room chit chat. Yes,
Speaker 1: I love and I love really she's she's been our
Speaker 1: kids that were born in the hospital. She was there
Speaker 1: at the hospital for our daughter's births and was here
Speaker 1: very shortly after at our house. When tell the world
Speaker 1: what you do for a living, I'm an architect. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what kind of stuff do you work? Uh? Commercial? I
Speaker 1: don't do a lot of houses, but m yeah, I've
Speaker 1: gotten the Over my twenty plus year career, I've gotten
Speaker 1: to do a lot of different stuff. But right now
Speaker 1: work for a firm that does a lot of commercial development.
Speaker 1: So right now I've got some projects with universities around
Speaker 1: the state. Um, locally, I've gotten to do a really
Speaker 1: cool movie theater and some offices and restaurants and things
Speaker 1: like that, and UM, yeah, I really enjoy my job.
Speaker 1: It's it changes a lot day to day. You know,
Speaker 1: some days I and you know, boots and hard hat
Speaker 1: and some days I'm on a computer. Some days I'm
Speaker 1: on phone and meetings. Some days I get to color.
Speaker 1: I mean, like literally color. I was about to ask
Speaker 1: you if you've ever do you ever draw stuff like
Speaker 1: on a napkin? Like architects usually have paper and pins
Speaker 1: these days. You know, I do have a purse. I
Speaker 1: have an advantage over those guys architects. I'm kind of
Speaker 1: an architect myself, Jessica, as you know, care do you
Speaker 1: remember when we built this office, I said that this
Speaker 1: was going to be a celebration of architecture. Do you
Speaker 1: remember that it's coming back. This wasn't just going to
Speaker 1: be a building. It was gonna be a celebration of architecture.
Speaker 1: But um, so funny story about Jessica that I heard
Speaker 1: her telling yesterday was that when she was in college,
Speaker 1: Is okay if I tell this story when she was
Speaker 1: in college, When she was in college at her house,
Speaker 1: they hosted a band that came and played a concert
Speaker 1: in her house and the dude set his symbols on fire.
Speaker 1: In her house was that same living room that I
Speaker 1: first hung out with Misty. This house was legendary in
Speaker 1: Fayetbelle at the time. By the way, and it was
Speaker 1: not once that we had a band play. It was
Speaker 1: like it was like a concert video. This is the
Speaker 1: days before cell phones and smartphones, and in those days,
Speaker 1: you would chalk the sidewalk. You'd write stuff on the sidewalk.
Speaker 1: If you want people to show up with chalk and
Speaker 1: outside your house, well yeah, tell them what we could.
Speaker 1: You didn't even have to say the address. People knew
Speaker 1: this house. It was nicknamed the Slacker House when I
Speaker 1: lived there. We were not slackers people that lived, but
Speaker 1: the house is known as the slacker house. So we
Speaker 1: can literally but on the sidewalk Slacker House Friday night,
Speaker 1: eight p m. In the band name, and people show
Speaker 1: up and watch bands. So fun. So how did they
Speaker 1: light their symbols on fire in your living room? Um?
Speaker 1: Gel that you put on it? If I remember that,
Speaker 1: you kind of smear on it and then you can
Speaker 1: light it on fire. Um yeah, you know. I'm kind
Speaker 1: of big into like sensational ways attention. I'm thinking about burning,
Speaker 1: like like going on a squirrel hunt and like lighten
Speaker 1: my saddle on or flaming arrows, flaming flaming arrows. I'm
Speaker 1: talking just okay, I'll see what I can find out,
Speaker 1: so you can also just order fajitas at the Mexican.
Speaker 1: Our final guest and certainly not least guests who's been
Speaker 1: here before. Yeah, our dear neighbor, also friend for decades,
Speaker 1: our favorite pastored poultry farmer, Terrell Spencer. Good to have you, man. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like being on the practice squad and everybody gets
Speaker 1: the flu, so you get to play. Okay, we need it.
Speaker 1: We need to like say, like Terrell Spencer is a
Speaker 1: direct replacement of yeah, exactly, so you need to be
Speaker 1: thinking about und trying to like fill his spot. Christie,
Speaker 1: you got replacements? Well that those are big shoes to fill. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're actually not. It's like a size eight and a half,
Speaker 1: small feet, big beard, big overall, but no Taryll. So
Speaker 1: you're I just called you Terrill. I'll never call you Terrell.
Speaker 1: Spence is your name. We're close enough you can use
Speaker 1: first name. Well. I remember Spence's last name was Spence,
Speaker 1: and they looked at me and they said his mom
Speaker 1: named him Spence. Tell me about the what you're wearing
Speaker 1: around your neck, this whole thing I forgot to have
Speaker 1: it on. Whatever. Yeah, it's a Grand Champion Rooster call
Speaker 1: medal I won a couple of weeks ago to Dallas
Speaker 1: at the at the American Pastured Poultry Producers Association p Yeah. There. Uh,
Speaker 1: they had a big conference about three fifty farmers and well,
Speaker 1: I mean, you gotta let's here. I would I would
Speaker 1: blow out every microphone on this. Oh it's okay, do it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: clearly you didn't even move it if you wanted to know. Okay,
Speaker 1: don't don't full force, yea, turn it up just a
Speaker 1: little bit. Turn it up just a little bit. My
Speaker 1: voice is he's got to stand up to get this out.
Speaker 1: You go, okay, excuse me, Well, okay, we're filming now.
Speaker 1: I was doing it earlier on top of the holler
Speaker 1: with my dog scaring vultures. Okay. And he really likes that.
Speaker 1: Some I've voice is a little blown out. I'm assuming
Speaker 1: they they they liked loudness over over like there is
Speaker 1: technical nuance. There's a fellow Christian Alexander. He can turn
Speaker 1: your mic down just a little bit. There, here's a
Speaker 1: fellow Christian Alexander. He's a farmer in North California. And
Speaker 1: he came out and he called and everybody sat down right,
Speaker 1: and uh, what I did? I couldn't compete with that,
Speaker 1: but there were multiple you could do multiple calls. So
Speaker 1: I just did a barrage of mediocre calls and got
Speaker 1: my score up. So I did like a turkey hen gobble,
Speaker 1: like the little that turkeys did, you know. I did
Speaker 1: a poultry predator, an owl and a crow, and there
Speaker 1: you go, and I got my score up to take
Speaker 1: them down. Okay, so our suns play basket all together,
Speaker 1: Spencing and when when when either of the boys score,
Speaker 1: I will ol hoot from the stand and Spence will
Speaker 1: crow call. And it's our goal that one day when
Speaker 1: the boys score on their team, the whole stadium al hoots.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's my goal. Anyway, it happened. We were
Speaker 1: in a really rural school district, if you remember, and
Speaker 1: we we we were making our calls and someone from
Speaker 1: the other side, I'm just saying, like, I love it.
Speaker 1: It's wonderful. One of the things that I We are
Speaker 1: playing for a new team this year, and it's I'm
Speaker 1: a little concerned that they're embarrassed up. I guess what
Speaker 1: the kids kids from down here, their dads are probably
Speaker 1: going crow colle It is what it is, um misty,
Speaker 1: Why don't you read okay, so I I get, you know,
Speaker 1: like updates if if someone in our family hits the papers,
Speaker 1: like I have this this setting where it will send
Speaker 1: me okay the interwet um. It's a setting on Google,
Speaker 1: so someone if someone's in the news or something, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna alert so I can see pictures and stuff like that. Well,
Speaker 1: I've got Clay's name on there, and so I got
Speaker 1: an update that Clay Newcombe and Missy Newcombe were in
Speaker 1: the papers. Um or um, it's on the Internet. I
Speaker 1: quickly realized that what I was looking at was an
Speaker 1: AI product, artificial intelligence. And so for people who don't know,
Speaker 1: there are these new newly created robots, recently created robots
Speaker 1: who go around and it's clear that what they do
Speaker 1: is they pull art calls from all over the Internet
Speaker 1: and they make like summarizations of those articles. But they
Speaker 1: don't want to plague your eze and so do not
Speaker 1: plage your eyes. Even though some would say this is
Speaker 1: still plagiarizing. They just swap out some of the keywords.
Speaker 1: So basically, it's a full article that has article that
Speaker 1: was a bio about me and Misty and go ahead
Speaker 1: and read it. And it starts with and it starts
Speaker 1: with mud Neucrom grew up and was launched up inside
Speaker 1: the Washita Mountains as a seventh interval Arkans. And already
Speaker 1: I'm like, where on nerves did this article stem from?
Speaker 1: What translation? He's a tracker, Donkey Skinner, naturalist and provincial
Speaker 1: social spectator. Let's stop right there. In my bio at
Speaker 1: Meat Eater, it says that I'm a seventh generation ar
Speaker 1: Kans and born and raised in Arkansas. So it said,
Speaker 1: and then in that bio I said I am a
Speaker 1: I'm a contoisseur of rural culture. So what did they say?
Speaker 1: They said, he's a tracker, a Donkey Skinner, naturalist, and
Speaker 1: provincial social spectators. Provincial social spectator was a connoisseur of
Speaker 1: rural Is there a t in that word? We don't.
Speaker 1: We don't talk about Clay's pronunciation. Fantastic. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of words that I don't say. Right. He is an essayist,
Speaker 1: movie producer, and this might be one of my favorites.
Speaker 1: The host of the Bear Oil webcast webcast. Well, and
Speaker 1: then Donkey Skinner. Yeah, all right, are you offended that
Speaker 1: they thought that donkey would be a synonym from mule. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, come on, a I bought dirt Newcomb has
Speaker 1: been hitched Earth Dirt Nwcombe has been hitched to his
Speaker 1: greater half, Cloudy Newcombs for virtually ten years, which that
Speaker 1: is wrong. Twenty two years Earth Newcomb is important, completely
Speaker 1: different has been dronfully hitched Jim Mudd and foggy like
Speaker 1: investing that needs to be airbrushed, mud and foggy. You
Speaker 1: see what it's it thinks. My name is Newcomb and
Speaker 1: it thanks. Clay is just a word that can be
Speaker 1: You can use synonyms of and misty as well. Foggy,
Speaker 1: mud and foggy like investing energy with their family inside
Speaker 1: the ozark Heaps Mountain. Okay, I'm not gonna go too
Speaker 1: much more, but they do at one point call me,
Speaker 1: uh Foggy Newcomb in And by the end of this
Speaker 1: my name has changed to Dine four children kind of
Speaker 1: love A good nickname my name. That should be your
Speaker 1: new band name. It should be Mudd and foggy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a great it's a great band name. Mud Dirt
Speaker 1: Nuwcomb would be great, but our friend friend Smith already
Speaker 1: has that one taken. Meda your cameraman, great guy, wonderful.
Speaker 1: He's already dirt, so we're already past that. If you
Speaker 1: have a race like three wheelers, your name needs to
Speaker 1: be dirt nukemb Yeah yeah, yeah, three wheelers. I can
Speaker 1: picture airbreast t shirts too. Yeah. Yeah. With with Christie,
Speaker 1: can you tell us what you do? Yeah, I am
Speaker 1: in supply chain, global supply chain, so I work with
Speaker 1: a supply chain company, mainly in the retail sector, doing
Speaker 1: important type work. An avid hunter mm hmm, fisher woman.
Speaker 1: So for years, um, I well, I kind of still
Speaker 1: think you're in trucking, right right, I did that for months,
Speaker 1: but it's stuck. Well no, Well, and you really were
Speaker 1: the trucker for major retailer in the country, that's right, Yes, No,
Speaker 1: Christie's very important. Christ You have such a great story
Speaker 1: because you went to college when you were older. I
Speaker 1: was thirty thirty years old. We had three kids, three kids,
Speaker 1: two foster kids. We have two foster kids. During When
Speaker 1: did you graduate college? How old were you? I was
Speaker 1: thirty four and then now you're like running Planet Earth.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, exactly. She is a big for real. I
Speaker 1: mean she is. She's a big shot. And there was
Speaker 1: a time when she worked for a local retailer that
Speaker 1: some have heard of. She doesn't anymore. Can I say their? Kay?
Speaker 1: She used to work for Walmart and every time I
Speaker 1: would go into Walmart and they wouldn't have something that
Speaker 1: I wanted to send her pictures so she could fix.
Speaker 1: I would get that. I also, we have a very
Speaker 1: close friend. You would call me and be like, I
Speaker 1: bought this fan and I love it, and I have
Speaker 1: ten of them and I bought it. I bought them
Speaker 1: all ten years ago, and I can't find them anymore.
Speaker 1: Can you figure out what happens? I know for sure
Speaker 1: cannot figure out what happens. No idea. But don't forget
Speaker 1: Christie Spielmaker is also a quite the fly fisher woman.
Speaker 1: So it's nice to have the presence of another fly
Speaker 1: fisher in the room here to support you. Hm, where
Speaker 1: do you'all and you'all like to you'll like to go
Speaker 1: over in central Arkansas and north of here, north of
Speaker 1: hers pretty go, Jessica. Now your connections to hunting, well,
Speaker 1: I should probably confess I've never hunted a little bit
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, but I hooked my brother
Speaker 1: one time and then no more, no more fishing after that.
Speaker 1: But I very much enjoy a grow grip and family
Speaker 1: that dad brothers, and Um, I reaped the benefits of
Speaker 1: having family and friends that are huntered. Like I was
Speaker 1: telling some friends at work, um, this morning that in
Speaker 1: my freezer right now, I have moose meat, I have
Speaker 1: buffalo meat, I have dear meat, I have chicken. I
Speaker 1: have all these things that people supply, and I'm very grateful. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I being outdoors. The coolest story are a cool
Speaker 1: story that Jessica's dad has. Who I'm hunted with? Your dad? Yeah? Um,
Speaker 1: is that he knew Elvis Presley? Yeah, can you tell
Speaker 1: us about that. I hope I'm getting these right, Dad,
Speaker 1: hope I'm getting these right. Yeah. Yeah. So I grew
Speaker 1: up in Central Arkansas. There was a guy who was
Speaker 1: a singer in the seventies in Central Arkansas, and my
Speaker 1: dad was learning to do tile, like for bathrooms and kitchens,
Speaker 1: and he was working on that guy's house and Elvis
Speaker 1: came to hang out, and Elvis would like just go
Speaker 1: sit like on the toilet with a little close with
Speaker 1: Elvis lived in Memphis, yea and hour and a half
Speaker 1: from where h and so then you know, apparently, uh,
Speaker 1: this was when my dad was young, probably still in
Speaker 1: high school, and Elvis and this other guy were probably
Speaker 1: in their thirties, and they my dad was always in
Speaker 1: the cool cars. He had a cool car. And then
Speaker 1: and they convinced my dad to take them cruising downtown
Speaker 1: so they could drink and wave it girls from the
Speaker 1: back team. Yeah. Yeah. And then later on my dad
Speaker 1: was racing boats at a lake in central Arkansas. He
Speaker 1: did this regularly and it was kind of a big
Speaker 1: deal back then, and Elvis would be the m C
Speaker 1: or a special guests or whatever, and he before it started,
Speaker 1: he'd find my dad and say hi, and then he'd
Speaker 1: be like, I gotta get out of here, there's too
Speaker 1: many people and go back to the you know where
Speaker 1: the cool kids go. I'm big into Elvis now, Josh,
Speaker 1: when did this happen? It's about two or three weeks ago.
Speaker 1: Is there going to be a podcast the next series? Yeah, there's.
Speaker 1: There's actually a great quote by Ted Nugent about Elvis Presto.
Speaker 1: He said he said, if Elvis had just been bloody
Speaker 1: up to the elbows about once a year, he'd still
Speaker 1: be alive. Remember that, because because he wouldn't have needed
Speaker 1: all the drugs him he had got a natural high. Jessica,
Speaker 1: I believe it. Elvis. You should hear Clay's Elvis call
Speaker 1: oh Man, Christie oh I did. I just want to
Speaker 1: give a shout out because I was on a I
Speaker 1: was on a business trip last week last week or
Speaker 1: the week before, and um, I was in the Dallas
Speaker 1: Fort Worth Airport and I saw a bear grease hat,
Speaker 1: bear grease hat in the wild yep siding in the wild,
Speaker 1: and I just thought, well, I'm gonna I'm gonna talk
Speaker 1: to this gentleman and just see if he'll talk to me.
Speaker 1: And I was like sweet hat. And he's like, he's
Speaker 1: like thanks, So where'd you get it? And he was
Speaker 1: like mediator website like kind of where. I was like, okay, cool,
Speaker 1: do you listen to the podcast? And he just looked
Speaker 1: at me. He goes religiously and I said, oh, you
Speaker 1: listen to the render. Yeah, And I said, well, sir,
Speaker 1: my husband is Josh Landbridge Speelmaker. I was like exactly exactly,
Speaker 1: and he was like what And then he wanted to
Speaker 1: be my best friend. And so that was Dr Blake
Speaker 1: on his way. He's going to be a doctor at
Speaker 1: the children's hospital here and he's about to move, and
Speaker 1: so I just wanted to give a shout out to
Speaker 1: Dr Blake can repen R. Blake. I have excellent Multiple
Speaker 1: farmers at the Apple conference come up to me and
Speaker 1: they'd listen to the Soil. Yeah, the Soil episode. I
Speaker 1: don't remember any other names, but yeah, you know who
Speaker 1: you are. Yeah. I think that we should start a
Speaker 1: new section where we just call out people's names. It's like,
Speaker 1: that's how every Arkansas event, like all the that's how
Speaker 1: all the Arkansas like social events. You go to an
Speaker 1: education conference and they stand up and they just kind
Speaker 1: of point out all the people in the room. They know.
Speaker 1: Stop it that. I got an email this week about
Speaker 1: a guy and all, forgive me, brother for not having
Speaker 1: your name in front of me, But this guy was
Speaker 1: at a fur trading. He was at a fur sale
Speaker 1: in Idaho. This is a thing for sales. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: they were. They were selling and buying furs, and he
Speaker 1: was wearing a Burgery's hat in the cellar. He was
Speaker 1: wanting to Boston first, if I remember right, And the
Speaker 1: seller saw his Bargery's hat and was like, bro loved
Speaker 1: the podcast and gave him a discount on the first
Speaker 1: tell me he was going to use it as currents.
Speaker 1: That would be good. That would be good. Hey, where
Speaker 1: are we at our on our coonskin hats, Josh. I've
Speaker 1: been working diligently. I've got I've got four left to make.
Speaker 1: They're about one third made, okay, so I just need
Speaker 1: to finish them up. Okay, we need Yeah, at some
Speaker 1: point we're gonna we're gonna sell yes, these coonskin genuine
Speaker 1: Ozark dog treed hats by next render. I will have
Speaker 1: a completion date for you, okay, and they might even
Speaker 1: be done, you never know. Yeah, we just gotta forget
Speaker 1: what we're gonna do with him. Hey. Kind of as
Speaker 1: an announcement to just to remind everybody, March fourth in
Speaker 1: Northwest Arkansas, Bentonville is the black Bear Bonanza. It's gonna
Speaker 1: be big man. There will be a coonskin hat. There'll
Speaker 1: be one of Josh's coonskins that anyone with a good
Speaker 1: ol hoo could win. It's gonna be the it's gonna
Speaker 1: be the prize for the old contest. I'll be one
Speaker 1: of the judges. And uh, there's gonna be a live
Speaker 1: Bear Greased Render podcast recorded. There potentially gonna be some
Speaker 1: live music outs maybe maybe maybe, but it's it really
Speaker 1: is gonna be a great day. Man. Those guys have
Speaker 1: done a great job of putting together a really fun event.
Speaker 1: It's all day. I'll be there all day. Uh, Mr
Speaker 1: Fog will be there all Day's gonna be there. To
Speaker 1: James Lawrence that I'm looking forward to. He he messaged
Speaker 1: me the other day. And when I get a text
Speaker 1: message from James Lawrence, I feel like like he shouldn't
Speaker 1: be text messaging, like, um he literally, well he's got
Speaker 1: a real phone now, he's got a good one now.
Speaker 1: But when he comes into town he can message. And
Speaker 1: he messaged me and said, hey, I heard you having
Speaker 1: a some kind of event and I said yeah, and
Speaker 1: he said me and he's coming that. I'm looking forward
Speaker 1: to that. So um to come, sir man. This so
Speaker 1: as everybody knows, I said on the last render, I've
Speaker 1: never taken such a long period of time to build
Speaker 1: a series. It took me over a year, maybe even
Speaker 1: a year and a half two just put all the
Speaker 1: pieces together and get the right it was. It mainly
Speaker 1: had to do with my guests, um, just like lining
Speaker 1: them all up and then then I've got them and
Speaker 1: and Rarely do I have this many like great guests
Speaker 1: on a single podcast. Guests Chief Ben Barnes with a Shawnee,
Speaker 1: Robert Morgan, New York Times best selling author, who I
Speaker 1: joke about? And if I am ever on the New
Speaker 1: York Times bestsellers list, I would like for all of you,
Speaker 1: my dear friends. Two when you introduced me, introduced me
Speaker 1: as New York Times bestselling author, and my friend Clay
Speaker 1: new Compe I've got to write a book first though.
Speaker 1: And then Peter Cozens, who is uh a fantastic author
Speaker 1: and historian, and who am I missing? Um? Yeah, Dr
Speaker 1: Dave Edmonds who has spent his whole career. Dave Edmonds
Speaker 1: is in his eighties, and it's just a really fun
Speaker 1: a lot of energy, just so much knowledge. Almost they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: slow down, slow down. Like when I put the headset on,
Speaker 1: he just just took off and he and he would
Speaker 1: he would be like four steps ahead of me, and
Speaker 1: I'd have to be I'd have to stop him and
Speaker 1: then be like, hey, let me ask you this little
Speaker 1: little bitty question. He was great. It such so great,
Speaker 1: So rarely do you have that much time to invest
Speaker 1: into one episode. But it's such a. It's such a
Speaker 1: complex topic. I am quite certain that on when this
Speaker 1: is done, there will be there will be people on
Speaker 1: all both sides of this topic that would think that
Speaker 1: I did it a disservice. I think so because it
Speaker 1: man I said it at the end of maybe the
Speaker 1: first episode of the second episode, I was kind of
Speaker 1: just I kind of at the very end, kind of
Speaker 1: made a plea for empathy to the listeners to just
Speaker 1: be like, hey, there's no way that I could get
Speaker 1: this totally right. And you know, I am telling this
Speaker 1: this story through the veil of my understanding, which is
Speaker 1: dim and foggy, foggy view of this. But because it
Speaker 1: is very sensitive stuff because we're talking about we're talking
Speaker 1: about American history, we're talking about the people that we're
Speaker 1: we're a lot of injustice was done to them. But
Speaker 1: you're also talking about a people who, uh, the Europeans,
Speaker 1: who in many ways are overlooked for the stresses that
Speaker 1: they were dealing with as they were trying to move
Speaker 1: into this land that they would have viewed as almost unoccupied.
Speaker 1: And so it's not a justification for that, but that's
Speaker 1: just the truth. I mean, you know, poverty and all
Speaker 1: these factors we're pushing these people, and and it's so
Speaker 1: that there's like all these different sides of it. And
Speaker 1: I think the other aspect of this that's challenging is
Speaker 1: that you don't have history necessarily, that the history books
Speaker 1: were written, not by the show. And so one of
Speaker 1: the big challenges that you have is is you're talking
Speaker 1: a lot about a different worldview and a different paradigm
Speaker 1: that they approached. So and we don't have we don't
Speaker 1: have that worldview clearly documented like we do the Westerners,
Speaker 1: even people who are trying to present it from the
Speaker 1: Shawnee perspective, still that's not there. You know, that's not
Speaker 1: their native language, that's not their native worldview. And so
Speaker 1: so it's it's just it's tricky. Well, there's a bias
Speaker 1: in every every angle, and it really would be this
Speaker 1: way in in any part of history. There's always a
Speaker 1: bias in the way the story is told from from
Speaker 1: any angle. And uh, and especially when you're going back
Speaker 1: into a time period when there was very little documentation anything.
Speaker 1: I mean even about two comes his life. You know,
Speaker 1: I got this book that's you know, two inches thick
Speaker 1: about two Comes to that's got like every possible thing
Speaker 1: that was ever known about him, and much of it
Speaker 1: is even the stuff I reported on about two comes
Speaker 1: as birth and all these things. Man, we're going off
Speaker 1: of like a thread, right, Like instance two comes his
Speaker 1: birth and like him being born under a comment that
Speaker 1: struck like went across the sky in Ohio. Two people
Speaker 1: told that story. Now those two people were close to Tecumsa.
Speaker 1: That's really for that deep of history. It's like pretty
Speaker 1: solid evidence. His his grandson Thomas Wildcat Alfred told that
Speaker 1: story to somebody, said, my grandfather was born under a
Speaker 1: comment and his name means this. But closer to Decompsa
Speaker 1: was his brother, essentially his functional brother, who was a
Speaker 1: white kid that was kidnapped and brought into the Shawnees
Speaker 1: raised as his brother that New English. This is stuff
Speaker 1: we didn't really even get to get into. Um Stephen Riddell,
Speaker 1: who lived with the Shawnees for seventeen years and then
Speaker 1: like went back into the white world. He is a
Speaker 1: big source of information about two Comesa because it comes
Speaker 1: to died when he was forty five in eighteen thirteen.
Speaker 1: And so presume I don't know how long Stephen Roddelle lived,
Speaker 1: but presumably longer than Tikomsa. And so when he died,
Speaker 1: people started asking about him and Riddell was like, I
Speaker 1: was his brother and I could speak English. And Riddell
Speaker 1: told that story. But it's not like there was a
Speaker 1: video of it or Facebook posts or exactly. Yeah, even
Speaker 1: at that, you know, one man's you're going off of
Speaker 1: one man's memory, you know. I mean, I can't tell
Speaker 1: you how many times I've told the story. And Chris
Speaker 1: he's like, that's not how it happened, you know, And
Speaker 1: Josh's a compulsive I'm just kidding. Before we move further,
Speaker 1: I think I just wanted logged that I wish we
Speaker 1: had named a kid Wildcat, named a kid mud Dirt
Speaker 1: Wildcat a lot of great our youngest that she's been
Speaker 1: a boy. She was going to be a wolf gang
Speaker 1: because you guys had a bear and we were gonna
Speaker 1: have a wolf. That would have been so guy for
Speaker 1: another kid. Yeah, thanks for that. If we do, I'm
Speaker 1: going to bury an antler with the unbilical cory. Yes. Um,
Speaker 1: So we'll start off the discussion. So we're talking about
Speaker 1: part two, but if you want to reference part one,
Speaker 1: that's okay as well. So Part two was basically it
Speaker 1: comes to his life from about sevent to eighteen twelve. Okay,
Speaker 1: it was kind of after he was established. The first
Speaker 1: podcast established his birth, the context of his birth, and
Speaker 1: kind of there were no official wars going on to
Speaker 1: speak of until the War of eighteen twelve. That's like
Speaker 1: the first like big American war that like we're like, yes,
Speaker 1: they were fighting, but his whole life was filled with warfare, skirmishes,
Speaker 1: tribal warfare. You know, that's something that we didn't get
Speaker 1: into that My dear friend Steve vannella Um called me
Speaker 1: today and talk to me about um was how much
Speaker 1: how much inner tribal warfare there was, like the they
Speaker 1: were a warring people like, uh, I don't want it
Speaker 1: to sound like they were surprised by they didn't understand warfare.
Speaker 1: And in this second one, Robert Morgan talked about how
Speaker 1: the Native Americans viewed warfare differently than the Europeans and
Speaker 1: it was more ritualistic. And you know, you can paint
Speaker 1: this romantic picture of like these people and the way
Speaker 1: they live, but they were they were, they were they
Speaker 1: were very brutal at times to themselves and a lot
Speaker 1: of fighting, just fighting was part of it. I think
Speaker 1: that's even speaks to how much more difficult it probably
Speaker 1: was for two Comes to bring together all the different tribes,
Speaker 1: you know, Like it could be easy to think, oh,
Speaker 1: it's just gathering up people that are all very similar
Speaker 1: or whatever, but there's a lot of difference between those
Speaker 1: different tribes exactly. There there was incredible difference, and and
Speaker 1: a lot of the tribes hated each other just for
Speaker 1: the sake of hating each other. And and and we're taking
Speaker 1: land from each other, you know. Um, even though like
Speaker 1: as as you talked about it, there's like this hedgemon
Speaker 1: that we've all been exposed to of like what we
Speaker 1: think a Native American is. And it's like in the
Speaker 1: plains with the big feather bonnet, you know, and that
Speaker 1: you don't think about like in the east in the woods,
Speaker 1: and like marching with the British, and you know, like
Speaker 1: when you see two Comsa, it's like nothing like what
Speaker 1: as a boy growing up in the eighties, what are
Speaker 1: watching westerns? What you think? You know? So it's like
Speaker 1: that thing has to even get moved before you can
Speaker 1: even start looking at and thinking about him. That's what
Speaker 1: I found myself, Like I really don't know anything about this,
Speaker 1: you know, like it's so foreign to me, and it's
Speaker 1: such a huge part of our history that's just we're
Speaker 1: ignorant of, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the way
Speaker 1: we'll do this, I'm gonna go to each one of
Speaker 1: you and ask you what stood out to you, and
Speaker 1: so maybe by the time we're done, we'll have like
Speaker 1: talked about lots of different parts of it. Is that Okay, yeah, Christie,
Speaker 1: can I start out with you what stood out to
Speaker 1: you in this podcast? Okay? So I think there are
Speaker 1: probably two parts that stood out to me. The description
Speaker 1: of the movement of people like being in one location
Speaker 1: and then spreading out all the way across the earth.
Speaker 1: And then so couple that with then in the first
Speaker 1: episode when it was I can't remember who it was,
Speaker 1: but described that like two kums would have approached people
Speaker 1: and things from what is similar, not what's different. And
Speaker 1: so then you start you kind of like start putting
Speaker 1: it all together, and you're like, this whole movement of
Speaker 1: people from like one central kind of location out across
Speaker 1: the earth over many, many years obviously produced different mindsets
Speaker 1: and thought processes in world views. And it just makes
Speaker 1: me sit back and wonder, like does the worldview always
Speaker 1: have to conflict or could there have been you know,
Speaker 1: when I think about this, could the Western worldview and
Speaker 1: the Native American worldview have come together to produce something
Speaker 1: better than what we even have today? Right? Instead, it
Speaker 1: was conflict and one had to you know, quote unquote
Speaker 1: win out or whatever. And I sit back and I
Speaker 1: think about that because in my world, like it's all
Speaker 1: about like I've got to go build relationships and build
Speaker 1: rapport and go find common ground. And it's like what
Speaker 1: if I just approach people and thought, hey, there just
Speaker 1: is common ground, like you know what I mean, even
Speaker 1: in my daily life just thinking about how does that apply?
Speaker 1: So I was impacted by that. I thought that was
Speaker 1: pretty wild and just interesting to think about. But then
Speaker 1: even even just what you just described, I mean two
Speaker 1: comes to I had to go and talk to people
Speaker 1: who also tribes you had different worldview I don't know
Speaker 1: about world views, but different views and try to go
Speaker 1: find common ground. So you know, it's it's it was
Speaker 1: an interesting kind of like how does it practically play out?
Speaker 1: So I was impacted by that, and then can I
Speaker 1: say something to that? And then you get to go again?
Speaker 1: Because I'm very glad you brought that up, because if
Speaker 1: that was such a the idea, like taking it all
Speaker 1: the way back to the human diaspora out of where
Speaker 1: we started. I was afraid to try to pronounce that. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I'm sure I pronounced it wrong. Pronounced it wrong. I
Speaker 1: think I think you nailed that one. Actually, well that
Speaker 1: it's such a wild thought to think that we are
Speaker 1: the same species, we're the same And two people left
Speaker 1: and separate, and it's a very simplified version of the
Speaker 1: human diaspora. Yes, two people left in different directions. They
Speaker 1: didn't know they were on a round planet, and time
Speaker 1: separated them for so long that when they met on
Speaker 1: the American frontier, they were vastly their their thought of
Speaker 1: what it meant to be a human was vastly different.
Speaker 1: And and then there was this conflict, and uh yeah,
Speaker 1: to me, like I could just sit and just think
Speaker 1: about that and just be like wow, wild. And then
Speaker 1: you know, I talked about the Tower of Babel and
Speaker 1: the Bible, where language was the way that God basically
Speaker 1: stripped people of being able to collaborate together, and how
Speaker 1: today that is so, I mean, language is everything. But yes,
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say that the part where you
Speaker 1: guys talked about language and the way is the Um,
Speaker 1: the language influenced thought and thought influenced language was really
Speaker 1: striking to me. Y'all know, I'm a big movie watcher
Speaker 1: and so many things take me back to movies. Um,
Speaker 1: but yeah, there's uh, there's a movie called Arrival that
Speaker 1: was about like aliens landing and this woman trying to
Speaker 1: communicate with aliens. And that's one of the big ideas
Speaker 1: in that movie, is like how communication shapes thought and
Speaker 1: thought shapes communication and back and forth. And I thought
Speaker 1: that the way that was described was really interesting and
Speaker 1: captured that idea. And it's true, like the way we
Speaker 1: the way we talk is a reflection of what we
Speaker 1: think that it also influences the way we think and
Speaker 1: back and forth. It's a cyclical thing. And so just
Speaker 1: being aware just in a practical life. Was this going
Speaker 1: to be one of your favorite topics for this Yeah,
Speaker 1: because I want to talk about language. Okay, okay, My
Speaker 1: second second one. My second one was Logan's Lament. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I just thought that was pretty I mean, I thought
Speaker 1: it was beautiful, but but like so sad and just
Speaker 1: just that side of like, man, he really treated people.
Speaker 1: One way and was horribly you know, unjustly treated by
Speaker 1: that same group of people. And I just yeah, so
Speaker 1: I was I liked how Ben Barnes said, he's your soul,
Speaker 1: can't help but be moved. After you read that, he
Speaker 1: said something really striking about how are yeah interesting Jessica
Speaker 1: ladies first, absolutely okay, impacting impacting thoughts. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: was thinking a lot about how how language influences thought,
Speaker 1: and thought influences language, and how that's the same for everybody.
Speaker 1: That's a life principle. You know, It's like you got
Speaker 1: to be conscious of how you talk because it does
Speaker 1: influence how you think. And you also you can tell
Speaker 1: a lot about how someone thinks by the way they talk.
Speaker 1: And um, yeah, I just thought it was really interesting
Speaker 1: where the decrease from six thousand languages two and fifty
Speaker 1: was that the statistics and what how what time frame?
Speaker 1: Remember like in the next seventy years, unbelievable, Every every
Speaker 1: two every week there is a language crossed off the
Speaker 1: US that dies like in And we'll talk about this more,
Speaker 1: I think in the next episode. But he you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, they're around two and fifty people on planet
Speaker 1: Earth that speaks Shawnny and what he said to me
Speaker 1: that really got my gears turnament was he said that
Speaker 1: mono lingual speakers have a hard time understanding why speaking
Speaker 1: multiple languages is important. And he said that languages allow
Speaker 1: us to to to view the world in a different way,
Speaker 1: and when you really practically think about what that means.
Speaker 1: This would be an example, as I've thought about it.
Speaker 1: Imagine that you're walking down a country road and there's
Speaker 1: a creek gurgling off to the right hand side, and
Speaker 1: you're just kind of it's peaceful, there's birds, and you're
Speaker 1: just having like a nice walk, a contemplative walk, and
Speaker 1: you're thinking about important stuff in your life. And I
Speaker 1: don't know, how would you describe have that in English.
Speaker 1: I'm not really asking for an answer, but I'm saying
Speaker 1: you would probably have to like make a lot of
Speaker 1: different thoughts and say a lot of different stuff, and
Speaker 1: take a lot of time to like describe like kind
Speaker 1: of a complex thing that's happening. Because the creek a
Speaker 1: creek doesn't really affect like my family, but maybe I'm
Speaker 1: thinking about my family. Perhaps there is a word in
Speaker 1: another language that you could say, I went and x
Speaker 1: x X, and that and you would be like, Oh,
Speaker 1: you were walking down the road and there was a
Speaker 1: creek babbling beside you, and you were thinking about your
Speaker 1: life and contemplating, and do you see what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Maybe there's like like there's words that describe stuff that
Speaker 1: we don't have words. You know, We've always we've always
Speaker 1: heard that that French is the language of love and
Speaker 1: and uh, which this is shaking yes or no, but
Speaker 1: the point being, there's ways that they say they capture
Speaker 1: parts of life that the English language just doesn't have
Speaker 1: the ability to capture. And so I thought about that
Speaker 1: because that's what I try to do as a like,
Speaker 1: as a storyteller, as a writer. It's like, you're trying
Speaker 1: to describe this really complex life we live, and there
Speaker 1: are words and other languages that say stuff that we
Speaker 1: don't know how to say. I think there's a there's
Speaker 1: a up in Alaska. There's a uh maybe I don't
Speaker 1: know who it is, but they have like twenty seven
Speaker 1: words for snow. Yes, we've got the one. I think
Speaker 1: about one of the lessons that we go through with
Speaker 1: our kids um at at school and one of the
Speaker 1: classes I teach Hardy he gave her a hearty welcome.
Speaker 1: What do you picture like a loud welcome? Okay? What
Speaker 1: kind of people? I don't know who's given the hearty welcome?
Speaker 1: Who do you picture given that? Like? What's friends and family? Okay?
Speaker 1: What's he wearing? Santa Claus suit? Really interesting? Plaid? Okay? Um,
Speaker 1: and you would be amazing how many people say plaid
Speaker 1: our flannel? You would be I mean, like almost ninety
Speaker 1: percent of people to say that he gave her a
Speaker 1: cordial greeting. Yeah, bow tie okay, one of those words,
Speaker 1: one of hearty welcome. When you like trace that phrase,
Speaker 1: when you take specifically hardy, when you trace that back
Speaker 1: to its origins, that is a the origins. I think
Speaker 1: it's a Nordic language that was spoken by peasants. Cordial welcome.
Speaker 1: I belief stints from French, like if you if you
Speaker 1: go into that and and so you end up with
Speaker 1: generations beyond where I I can't even I teach this,
Speaker 1: I haven't in my notes. Um. But you know, we
Speaker 1: don't know where those the origin of those words came from,
Speaker 1: but we still infer the same the same. We don't
Speaker 1: conscious that it came from that, but we know that
Speaker 1: Josh Spellmaker would give a hearty welcome. It puts an
Speaker 1: image in your head as Josh yeah and he wears,
Speaker 1: But you get those images in your head centuries after
Speaker 1: those those The language carries a lot of stuff with
Speaker 1: it that maybe you don't even Yeah, yeah for sure.
Speaker 1: And so I think I thought that was a super
Speaker 1: interesting thing. And and if back to your point about
Speaker 1: about you know, you're trying to give this perspective there,
Speaker 1: this is a language that is dying or are greatly
Speaker 1: is like an endangered language, and so we don't know
Speaker 1: the history because we don't understand what they were saying.
Speaker 1: We don't understand what was being communicated. And and that's yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a real valuable part of the bias to to
Speaker 1: inspect and to understand. And you know alluded to this
Speaker 1: in the podcast, but it's and I think it's a
Speaker 1: hard judgment to say that to come so it would
Speaker 1: have been the greatest orator in American history, Like that's
Speaker 1: probably a stretch. I had some real winners because we
Speaker 1: don't have a recording of it. But what I think
Speaker 1: historians are trying to do is throw the guy bone
Speaker 1: and say the way that he organized people, like the
Speaker 1: evidence of strong oration was there so strongly that we
Speaker 1: can assume and the way people talked about it. But
Speaker 1: the Shawnee language carried him. And now he would have
Speaker 1: been speaking some of his stuff in English, but most
Speaker 1: of his stuff for him to inspire as people, it
Speaker 1: would have been he would have been speaking Shawnee most likely,
Speaker 1: and and in other tribes he probably would have spoken
Speaker 1: some of their life. But you know, just kind of
Speaker 1: like this language carried this incredible orator, so you know,
Speaker 1: like what was inside of it? M but interesting, Jessica.
Speaker 1: Second second thing, Okay, Um, I liked when you guys
Speaker 1: were talking about um change. You know, UM. In my profession,
Speaker 1: I'm an architect. I interact with tons of people at
Speaker 1: different scales of development, you know, city planners and things
Speaker 1: like that, and change is a big topic, especially in
Speaker 1: a region like where we live, where like we are
Speaker 1: on a trajectory of growth and it's not going to stop.
Speaker 1: And um. Yeah. So one thing that's talked about a
Speaker 1: lot in design and city planning and architecture is like
Speaker 1: things are going to change, They're gonna grow, or they're
Speaker 1: gonna go downhill. And so that the point is we've
Speaker 1: got to grow in the right way. So I was
Speaker 1: just thinking about, like, there are ways to keep what's
Speaker 1: good and still adjust because change is gonna happen, Like yeah,
Speaker 1: and I would say change is good, but also like
Speaker 1: we've got to be anchored by things that don't change.
Speaker 1: And it's it's it's really As I was listening to this,
Speaker 1: I was listening to uh was it then you were
Speaker 1: talking to Yeah, And as you all were talking about it,
Speaker 1: I was thinking, like, you know, going back to my grandparents,
Speaker 1: there are things that they believe in that they thought
Speaker 1: that we're not good, not good for them, not good
Speaker 1: for others. They were restrictions, mindsets that restricted them as
Speaker 1: individuals and restricted their scope of of experience, and and
Speaker 1: that we can I mean, uh, go mack even further,
Speaker 1: think about the change that having like heat has brought us,
Speaker 1: and the change that good solid medicine has improved, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And there's some things that I'm not going to go
Speaker 1: without that I'm a big fan of and I don't
Speaker 1: want to go without. And I think that we can
Speaker 1: romanticize the old ways or the traditional ways personally, like
Speaker 1: I think I I am very much so in the
Speaker 1: camp of people that could easily do that and and
Speaker 1: and so it was an interesting take. As I was
Speaker 1: listening to the two of you talk on the podcast,
Speaker 1: that was a big thought going through my mind, is like, well,
Speaker 1: change is good, but also there's some things that shouldn't change,
Speaker 1: and there's some things that that you don't you don't
Speaker 1: want to change, and there is just this constant tension.
Speaker 1: And I think like in our home, we would say
Speaker 1: migration is a value, something that we value, like the
Speaker 1: ability to migrate, to hire respectives and and things like that,
Speaker 1: and that that's actually like a declared value of the
Speaker 1: system of our home. At the same time, we're very
Speaker 1: much so deeply anchored to ancient principles and ancient value
Speaker 1: systems that we tell our kids this isn't gonna change,
Speaker 1: this is this is what you And so I just
Speaker 1: I just think it's an interesting tension there, like it's
Speaker 1: not something and you can see why wars are fought
Speaker 1: over it. Let me let me do a little clean
Speaker 1: up that section, because that section was one that potentially
Speaker 1: somebody could have a hard time with because what David
Speaker 1: Edmond was doing was he was trying to help He
Speaker 1: was trying to help us in modern times here in America.
Speaker 1: Understand at the at a very small level, what was
Speaker 1: happening to Ta Komsa. He was not because he talked
Speaker 1: about coal miners losing their losing their their their way
Speaker 1: of life, and rural America losing our way of life.
Speaker 1: And the problem with that argument, as you could say,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, you're saying coal miners not being able
Speaker 1: to dig col anymore is like, you know, the genocide
Speaker 1: of the people. You see, That's not what we're saying,
Speaker 1: and that's not what he was saying. He was trying.
Speaker 1: He did a good job. I thought of bringing it
Speaker 1: down to something that we could sort of identify with.
Speaker 1: It wasn't He wasn't saying this is just like that
Speaker 1: and um, you know somebody that was just looking for
Speaker 1: a reason to be mad at us for this podcast.
Speaker 1: Could Mike could say that, So I just I just
Speaker 1: want to clean that up because what what it did
Speaker 1: so powerfully for me here and that is to be like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it comes to it wasn't like he was fighting for
Speaker 1: a way of life. Like he loved his people, his land,
Speaker 1: just like we would love our people in our He
Speaker 1: was a man and it hurts when that stuff is
Speaker 1: taken away, and uh, and and so I just want
Speaker 1: to say, but I think that brings me back to
Speaker 1: what Christie was saying earlier. Um, like, it doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be what we have is that one one one side,
Speaker 1: one over the other side. But there's probably a beautiful
Speaker 1: connection there somewhere that was missed, that both groups of
Speaker 1: people could have survived and had healthy balance of holding
Speaker 1: onto what the old and growing with the new at
Speaker 1: the same time. It's hard to picture, right because we've
Speaker 1: grown up in this world that's defined by that, especially
Speaker 1: in North America. And yeah, but but right, yeah, I
Speaker 1: think it does survive though, like some of those those
Speaker 1: Native American tendencies. I see it in my farming, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm working with nature, you know, I see it in
Speaker 1: hunting and conservation. But you know, like because that Western
Speaker 1: way was, you know, we kill all the passenger pigeons
Speaker 1: or carry whatever, you know, like we extinction extinction. But
Speaker 1: yet you see like this model of hunting that's arisen.
Speaker 1: And I'm not a hunter, but I love them, you know.
Speaker 1: And it's like you see this model that's arisen of
Speaker 1: preservation and I could kill more, but that would hurt,
Speaker 1: you know, like so and I and I see that
Speaker 1: in my farming. I think there's other you see, like
Speaker 1: some of the rural community stuff of neighboring nous and
Speaker 1: taking care of your neighbors even though it may not
Speaker 1: benefit you directly at that moment. Like, I feel like
Speaker 1: some of that may I don't know, I feel like
Speaker 1: it it isn't there. You know, it's probably subtle, especially
Speaker 1: like Ozark culture, because I mean, like that's where it
Speaker 1: butted up. We're in right next to Oklahoma, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: for real, this part of the world, there was a
Speaker 1: lot of overlap of Native American and poor white white farmers,
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of overlap. But and that
Speaker 1: goes back to what I talked about in the first one.
Speaker 1: I think what makes us American? What? Because if it
Speaker 1: had been all these Europeans that came over here, it
Speaker 1: just it would have like why are we so different
Speaker 1: than them today? I think a lot of it had
Speaker 1: to do with Native Americans, so that culture age, it's
Speaker 1: hard to put your finger on it. Um Spence impact
Speaker 1: favorite part of it. Yeah, I think there's a couple
Speaker 1: like just the the language, Like there was a point
Speaker 1: in my life where I was almost bilingual, you know,
Speaker 1: like and Uh, like this caused me to go back
Speaker 1: and look at that and just realize, you know, like
Speaker 1: like it was Latin. Like if I wanted to eat,
Speaker 1: I had to speak in Latin, Okay, you know, like
Speaker 1: it was pretty hardcore. And and just even going back
Speaker 1: and like I still read my Bible in Latin and
Speaker 1: it feels different, like things are transmitted different, and so
Speaker 1: it's I don't know, it was sad to hear about
Speaker 1: the languages. Like when you we're in northwest Arkansas, you
Speaker 1: can drive to Talaqua and I think that's the Cherokee homeland, right,
Speaker 1: and you see all the like just letters I didn't
Speaker 1: even know existed. Yeah, yeah, you know it's really cool
Speaker 1: as they're those are in it. But it's that struggle,
Speaker 1: you know, to to preserve that heritage. And you just
Speaker 1: think of like when you hear about all the languages
Speaker 1: being lost, it's like, man, those are like facets of
Speaker 1: humanity that are growing dim you know, like we lose
Speaker 1: something every time one of those goes out. And I
Speaker 1: don't know that that that part of functional problem though,
Speaker 1: because you know, it's like when you hear about the Shawnees,
Speaker 1: You're like, well, I could learn Shawnee and then it's
Speaker 1: like you probably not really. I mean it's almost it's
Speaker 1: almost like that language is a way of thinking. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, you have to change the way you think
Speaker 1: to be able to communicate in in the Shawnee language,
Speaker 1: I think to Like one thing that I was able
Speaker 1: to identify with is I've got property on both sides
Speaker 1: of a river. And I love rivers. Like I did
Speaker 1: grad school work, I really value Ozark rivers. They're incredibly unique,
Speaker 1: They're they're they're just so underestimated and just how spectacular
Speaker 1: they are. There's more species of fish in Arkansas than
Speaker 1: most countries. Yeah, yeah, you know, like it's take that word, yeah,
Speaker 1: or like the entire Western the entire Western US, you know,
Speaker 1: like an order of magnitude. And like I've in one
Speaker 1: of my properties, like we have there's a neighbor who
Speaker 1: just kind of like just goes and just digs up
Speaker 1: in the river and and we have a really good
Speaker 1: section on our part, and it affects it. And like
Speaker 1: I feel helpless sometimes because I have valued the doing
Speaker 1: what they're doing, and yeah, and and and honestly, and
Speaker 1: those are extremes. What happens down river affects it to
Speaker 1: and I but he has a right to do it,
Speaker 1: and I can't stop it. And you know, I'm not
Speaker 1: even gonna talk to him because I don't think it
Speaker 1: would be there and and it you know, my it's
Speaker 1: just there's a little bit of helplessness that you feel.
Speaker 1: They're seeing something that you value being destroyed callously. But yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, just so someone can play around or or
Speaker 1: do the things they want. And and so I wonder
Speaker 1: like what must that have been, like, you know for
Speaker 1: the Native Americans, like even like it wasn't during it
Speaker 1: comes this time, but like when the extermination of the buffalo,
Speaker 1: like like that your bison herds across you know, like
Speaker 1: and just being powerless. You know, I don't know, it's
Speaker 1: just kind of like it's just something that spoke to me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what wasn't there a quote in the first podcast about
Speaker 1: like an insatiable hunger for more, like whether it was
Speaker 1: land or I just think about what is that You
Speaker 1: talk to people sometimes today and I think, man, you
Speaker 1: have a you have a fantastic life. You have good kids,
Speaker 1: and you know they work really hard and you ask
Speaker 1: them and they're like, well, I'm just trying to get
Speaker 1: my kids better, and I think what's wrong with your life?
Speaker 1: Like better what you know? And I think I think
Speaker 1: two comes to like maybe I'm over romanticizing this, but
Speaker 1: like you're starting to preserve way of life also a mentality.
Speaker 1: It says, we don't have to go grab up, Like
Speaker 1: what is that in the long term? Look like if
Speaker 1: you if if his kids and his kids kids and
Speaker 1: their kids are always trying to feel this need to grab, grab, grab,
Speaker 1: and that is like that is sad to me, you know,
Speaker 1: like winds enough enough, you know that really is a
Speaker 1: dramatic difference. We didn't talk about it in this one.
Speaker 1: Robert Morgan covers and I read it in his book
Speaker 1: on Boone, but he talked about how the there's accounts
Speaker 1: of different tribes believing that the white men were insane
Speaker 1: for trying to find gold, like just like why what
Speaker 1: do you after? What you're looking? Like why you came
Speaker 1: across the ocean? And in in this idea of wealth
Speaker 1: like story storing up wealth, accumulation of wealth was just
Speaker 1: like what this bizarre man? You know, we we've got
Speaker 1: what we need right here, you know, um And and
Speaker 1: that can be over romanticized and and there was there
Speaker 1: was a scale of influence of the cultures to like
Speaker 1: later in in the time period, there was probably some
Speaker 1: of the tribes that were very influenced by money. I mean,
Speaker 1: and David Edmonds talked about it, that they were getting
Speaker 1: money from the government, they were getting supplies, they were
Speaker 1: they were settling down in farming. Yeah, there were there
Speaker 1: were more people. And this is what um you gotta
Speaker 1: say and understand. And again it's so complex. We're talking
Speaker 1: about Takumsa because he was an actually an outlier. Like
Speaker 1: a lot of the tribes were wanted to assimilate. They
Speaker 1: were getting money from the government, they had a good
Speaker 1: land deal. They you know, a lot of the tribes
Speaker 1: wanted to assimilate. Like an oversimplification of it would be
Speaker 1: all the Native Americans were wanting, you know, we're fighting
Speaker 1: against America. So they were were actually a lot of
Speaker 1: tribes fighting with America against the French and other Indians.
Speaker 1: So it's like so, and that's why in a two
Speaker 1: hour podcast, you just can't cover the whole thing. I
Speaker 1: told him, I told uh, I told somebody the other day,
Speaker 1: I said, I'm for sure going to get it wrong
Speaker 1: in some places. But what I want people that listen
Speaker 1: to this podcast. To take home is that when they
Speaker 1: think about this place that we live and think about
Speaker 1: the Native Americans, is that it is wildly more complex
Speaker 1: than you could ever imagine. Just you know, when you
Speaker 1: think about the language, and you think about some of
Speaker 1: these tribes getting money from the government, and then you
Speaker 1: have this guy like two Come, so that it is
Speaker 1: standing against the trend and in some ways probably knew,
Speaker 1: you know, I wonder if he really thought he could win.
Speaker 1: I often wonder about that, like if he knew he
Speaker 1: was going to be a mark. Those guys, those guys
Speaker 1: had something inside of them and that this was very
Speaker 1: real that to die was like noble, like his brother,
Speaker 1: She's a quald that said, I'd rather have the fouls
Speaker 1: of their dying camp. Yeah, And that's something that was
Speaker 1: deep inside of them. And so I wonder if it
Speaker 1: comes to I wonder if he really thought he could win.
Speaker 1: I think he probably did. I think he probably did.
Speaker 1: Josh favorite part. So I was also very very impacted
Speaker 1: by the discussion on language. But I do want to
Speaker 1: say the other thing that that is, you know, adjacent
Speaker 1: to two Comes, Two Comes to his history is I
Speaker 1: was real fascinated by how they talked about the the
Speaker 1: aspect of community and how you know, as a Shawnee
Speaker 1: he would have had many fathers and many mothers and
Speaker 1: many brothers. And I thought, what a what an amazing
Speaker 1: beautiful thing that that um really, you know, I don't
Speaker 1: think that two come so it could have been who
Speaker 1: he was without that and recognizing the fact of the
Speaker 1: fingerprint of so many people and so many interactions and
Speaker 1: and relationships that produced who he was and gave him
Speaker 1: the the ability to see a united Native American front.
Speaker 1: And so I I just you know, in short, I
Speaker 1: think that was that really impacted me. And you know,
Speaker 1: it makes me think about about our lives Christie and
Speaker 1: I with our kids and how we have we have
Speaker 1: really you know, raised our family together closely with friends,
Speaker 1: you know, with you guys and our kids and with
Speaker 1: other people that we know and and care for dearly,
Speaker 1: and uh have shared life and shared community together and
Speaker 1: it's produced these young people who are competent and um
Speaker 1: responsible and and have really themselves gone against the trend
Speaker 1: of the age. I just that that really impacted me,
Speaker 1: seeing that, seeing that thing inside of him, and also
Speaker 1: the identity right like he tells that story about Boone
Speaker 1: and just like I think we're a society that doesn't
Speaker 1: have that, like you're a man now, like a lot
Speaker 1: of cultures have like you're a man now because you
Speaker 1: go through this like and like how Boone went through
Speaker 1: the purification. I think you said, and now you belong
Speaker 1: to the tribe and there's no question. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know. And there's very few I think instant institutions
Speaker 1: like I think maybe baptism would be one, like in Christianity. Um,
Speaker 1: but where you actually where you have that idea, that
Speaker 1: clear demarcation of identity, and and that was powerful to me. Yeah, Misty,
Speaker 1: have you gone not really, I've just commented anothers I think,
Speaker 1: you know, I just I think the whole I I
Speaker 1: love hearing what everybody else has said. I could comment
Speaker 1: really on what Spencer and Josh said, but I I
Speaker 1: know we're kind of running low one time. I think
Speaker 1: to me, as I look at this, as I look
Speaker 1: at the whole podcast, and it kind of goes back
Speaker 1: to what you said a few minutes ago. It does,
Speaker 1: and I hope at least it does this for people.
Speaker 1: It makes you see things to the best of your
Speaker 1: ability to extract this information and to extract an accurate
Speaker 1: history from to comes this perspective, and I think, you know,
Speaker 1: there's kind of a couple of different schools of thought.
Speaker 1: Are camps that I grew up hearing. One exclusive camp,
Speaker 1: which was you know that drive that you know Americans
Speaker 1: have that was very much idealized in the world and
Speaker 1: in the places I grew up, you know, yeah, the
Speaker 1: Pioneer And and I'm telling you, I think there's some
Speaker 1: really good stuff, Like, there's some stuff in that that
Speaker 1: has been really meaningful even inside my life as an adult,
Speaker 1: just to um metaphorically, So, I mean, there's some good
Speaker 1: stuff in that. It's also when I hear these stories
Speaker 1: and and I do feel some of the influence of
Speaker 1: of those things still on our culture, and you realize, man,
Speaker 1: that's also some really good stuff. And I want to
Speaker 1: understand that guy's perspective as well. And he too, come
Speaker 1: say is a hero and and it doesn't mean to
Speaker 1: come say is perfect, and it doesn't mean the Native
Speaker 1: Americans or perfect or um. Like, I think that you
Speaker 1: can have these conversations without uh. And and I think
Speaker 1: you did a good job on that, Like, I actually
Speaker 1: think that you did present that. Yeah, I think you
Speaker 1: did a good job on that. Like as I'm as
Speaker 1: I was listening to it, I thought, yeah, this helps
Speaker 1: people see because it is a different mindset, like it is.
Speaker 1: We don't speak that language, we don't we don't have
Speaker 1: those words, those those symbols, those rites of passages like
Speaker 1: you just described, and so we need people to help
Speaker 1: interpret that for us. But I thought what Dave Edmonds
Speaker 1: did with comparing it not and like you said, it's
Speaker 1: not not the atrocities that were committed, but just people
Speaker 1: fighting for their way of life. I thought, as I
Speaker 1: listened to that section, I thought, yep, I can see
Speaker 1: exactly what he wanted. I'm sympathetic to it, and I
Speaker 1: see how he is just as much a hero for
Speaker 1: fighting for his way as anyone I know. And and
Speaker 1: so I thought, I thought it was you did a
Speaker 1: great job for that. And I don't know, like when
Speaker 1: you're thinking about solutions, Okay, well how do you resolve
Speaker 1: all this? How do you? And that's where I think
Speaker 1: it gets really complicated. And but I think I think
Speaker 1: as far as the value of understanding someone's perspective and understanding,
Speaker 1: you know, what he was trying to do, I got
Speaker 1: all sorts of respect for him, all sorts of respect
Speaker 1: for him. Yeah, you know, it's really interesting for me
Speaker 1: inside these series with these guys. I you know, these
Speaker 1: actors that do this, Uh, what's the type of acting
Speaker 1: when they like pantomime, when they when they become the
Speaker 1: person method acting method. Okay, I do not do that.
Speaker 1: I do really feel like connected to these guys. I
Speaker 1: really do. And it like I'm like when we ended
Speaker 1: the Boon series, like I really was sad, Like I
Speaker 1: don't know if you could hear it in my voice
Speaker 1: at the end of the Boon series, but like I
Speaker 1: was almost in tears for real in this office bonus. Um.
Speaker 1: It's the same way with the Comes to Like I'm
Speaker 1: already like wishing that it was longer because right now
Speaker 1: in this six week period, like I just I just
Speaker 1: thinking about him a lot. The other day, I was
Speaker 1: driving in my truck and again, the biggest challenge with
Speaker 1: with with time and history is that you hear about
Speaker 1: somebody from in eight and they they aren't real to you.
Speaker 1: And two Comes was a human. He was not a
Speaker 1: he was not a comic book character. He he had
Speaker 1: major flaws, he had some major good stuff, and I
Speaker 1: just envisioned like literally two comes to write into my
Speaker 1: truck with me, just like and being able to communicate
Speaker 1: with him and just like it's just like the little
Speaker 1: sliver of thought, just like, this is a real person
Speaker 1: and it was Yeah, I saw all that to say,
Speaker 1: I really feel like I kind of dive into these
Speaker 1: guys and I wish it was longer. Yeah, that's what
Speaker 1: makes you a great storyteller, Clay. Well, are the love
Speaker 1: flying around this room? And if you could get two
Speaker 1: comes to an interview for the podcast, that would be great. Hey,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna try to foreshadow any but we will
Speaker 1: be having an induction. I'm not gonna say who, but
Speaker 1: we will be having some inductions into the Grease Hall
Speaker 1: of Fame. It's probably christ will be. There will be
Speaker 1: two new members very Grease Hall of Fame. Which we
Speaker 1: don't throw that around lightly. That is serious after this series,
Speaker 1: can we also, I just think adopt from this podcast
Speaker 1: series the whole what is it arrow flights? Like distance wise?
Speaker 1: If Josh's like, hey Christie, where are you and I'm
Speaker 1: like four arrow flights from the house, yes, I feel
Speaker 1: like that should become a part of I am so
Speaker 1: bad with time space estimating the number of people who
Speaker 1: were at things the size that I mean, that would
Speaker 1: be very hard for me. I just make up if
Speaker 1: you went out and shot a couple of arrows and
Speaker 1: arrow flights pretty I would say it's about two hundred yards,
Speaker 1: and tundred yards would be about six feet um. Two
Speaker 1: hundred yards would be how less than a quarter of
Speaker 1: a mile eight yards and a half mile, So a
Speaker 1: quarter mile would be like four hundred fifty yards. What
Speaker 1: are we eight parao flights to Spencer's house? Oh, not
Speaker 1: that far, probably like three a quarter mile south of okay,
Speaker 1: of the town. I just thought that was kind of big. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought it was too I thought it was too well.
Speaker 1: Thank you all so much for coming. Jessica. What an
Speaker 1: honor to have you here. Yes, Christie, what an honor
Speaker 1: to have you here, Carol Spencer, what an honor to
Speaker 1: after the practice squad and here we are. Damon Josh
Speaker 1: And he didn't even mention the part where you talked
Speaker 1: about the land bridge. Yeah, you talk about the Bearing
Speaker 1: land bridge. It probably shared that Josh was an interviewed
Speaker 1: on that. Another opportunity wasted that on the podcast. Uh,
Speaker 1: one day, Josh, one day, one day? All right, thank
Speaker 1: you so much, and there will be one final two
Speaker 1: Comes to episode titled t Comes to Death. Way to
Speaker 1: bring it down? Make us cry? I don't know. He
Speaker 1: might make himself cry. Is there a flaming arrow somewhere
Speaker 1: in Yeah, there should be. There should be