WEBVTT - Listener Mail: Leary, Bicameralism and Monsters 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.880 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:14.680 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:17.000 My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Christian Saga, and 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:19.200 I'm Joe McCormick. And here we are again for another 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:22.759 listener mail episode where we get all of the beautiful 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:25.480 magic that you send us through the Internet. We wrap 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:27.520 it up in a tight little bundle and we set 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:30.240 it on fire. No, wait a minute, no, we read it. Yeah, 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:32.880 that's right. Well, you know, Carnie, our mail bot goes 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:36.839 through it first and then games what is appropriate for 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:39.239 our eyes and then brings it to our eyes. And 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:42.279 he deemed some really good stuff this time. There are 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:45.839 some great letters here. Well, yeah, because this is incorporating, 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:48.000 of course, our October month, so a bunch of stuff 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:50.800 about monsters. It's gonna be incorporating all the drug stuff 0:00:50.800 --> 0:00:53.760 about Timothy Leary, and it's going to be incorporating all 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:57.000 the responses to the Bicameral Mind episodes, of which there 0:00:57.000 --> 0:00:59.480 were about ten. Building I was gonna say, people, that's 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:02.440 like a hit, Like you guys got a ton of 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:05.560 mail for that episode. There are two episodes, right, Yeah, 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:08.280 it was a two parter back in September, and I 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:10.880 don't I feel like I've gotten more listener mail about 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:13.959 that one than any other one we've ever done. Would 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:17.840 would you agree, Robert Um? I mean, I'm hesitant to 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:20.080 compare it to everything, but we did receive a lot 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:22.959 of feedback on that way. It's as if they it's 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:26.319 as if you and I spoke to them through their minds, 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:29.959 you know, like gods. Well, we we do get at 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:33.400 least one message today of somebody telling us where they're gods. 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:37.399 So we're doing something right there. Well, on that note, 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:39.240 let's let's begin to roll through it. If if you 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:42.560 have not listened to a listener mail episode from us before. Basically, 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:44.199 what we're gonna do is we're just gonna go around 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:47.279 the table here and we're gonna take turns reading listener 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:49.800 mails from you, and then we're going to discuss them 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:53.240 a little bit. You know. Sometimes it invites discussion. Other 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:55.200 times it's just like, well, there you go. That's the 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:58.240 that's the listeners statement right there, and there's not much 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:01.800 additional diet. What I love about listener mail episodes though, 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:03.960 is that like it's a grab bag in that like 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:06.600 we get to revisit these topics that we've already covered 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:09.480 in the last few months, but then just bring them 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:11.520 all together and what we've learned from them and what 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:14.720 the audience has learned from them into this like goolash. Also, 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:17.280 it makes me feel great because y'all out there, you're 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:19.920 just so smart, You've got great things to say. I 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:22.400 mean it, Come on, I love reading our mail. Yeah, 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:25.560 we have some some variants and very insightful listeners that 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:29.079 sometimes you guys make connections that did we don't when 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:34.320 we're researching this stuff. Totally alright, Well, Carney has h 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:37.440 has ventured forth. He is holding something out here to 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:40.080 Christian Christian. Uh, why don't you read us our first 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:44.040 listener mail? This one is glorious. It might be one 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:46.679 of my favorite letters that I've received on stuff to 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:49.720 blow your mind. It's from Rick and it is about 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:53.680 our two parter on Timothy Leary and lsd Uh. He 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:55.720 writes to us, and he says, this is a bit long, 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:59.079 but I think it's worth three whole thing. Uh. He says, 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:01.440 I'd like to respond to the Tim Leary podcast, so 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:04.839 I will here are my credentials. In nineteen sixty six 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:07.880 or so, I hung out with Leary dropped acid with him, 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:10.160 threw him out of our TP one night when he 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:12.800 got drunk and hit up my wife. We were living 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:15.080 in New York City. Then I worked as a mime 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:18.960 and a fire eater at the Electric Circus on St. Mark's. 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:21.639 We answered a casting call for a film being shot 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:25.399 at the Hitchcock Estate in Millbrook, home of the LSD 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:28.400 League for Spiritual Discovery, which we discussed in that episode. 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:31.200 We lived there for a couple of months. That's how 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:34.120 we met Leary. When later the film project fell through, 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:36.320 we took our pay in the form of one of 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:39.520 a number of tps and sets of polls which had 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:42.120 been made for the film. We pitched the TP on 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:45.640 a friends land near Poughkeepsie and spent lots of time 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:49.320 off there. That's where I threw Leary out. In the 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:52.480 years following our sojourn with LSD, I relocated to the 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:55.480 sunny Southwest, went to medical school, and worked for over 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:58.520 twenty five years as an e R doc. I recently 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:02.320 retired in many ways as this trajectory was the fulfillment 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:06.560 of ideas and ideals born in vision during acid trips. 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:11.160 To the extent your podcast was focused specifically on Leary. 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:14.840 You got it mostly right. Leary was a deeply flawed man, 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:20.240 But so have been many important explorers, writers, and spiritual teachers, 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:22.920 and cult leaders and philosophers. He's kind of a bit 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:26.000 of all those things, isn't he? Uh? Leary was not, 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:30.200 by any measure, the worst of these in terms of egocentrism, greed, 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:35.000 and especially womanizing. Leary did have many important insights regarding 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:38.720 human spirituality, and was better able than most to explain 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:41.760 these two would be psycho knots. I first heard him 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:45.120 speak with Richard Albert in San Francisco, I think in 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:48.760 nineteen sixty four. Elsewhere I have referred to Albert and 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:52.159 Leary as the Abbott and Costello of the psychedelic scene. 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:55.159 That's that's how they sounded in our research too. But 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:58.240 in any case, I and many others were galvanized by 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:01.920 the possibilities they loaded before us. I bought the book 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:04.880 the two of them had written, along with Ralph Metzner, 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:07.320 based on the Tibetan Book of the Dead, that's called 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:10.680 The Psychedelic Experience. It was a how to manual, and 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:13.760 it worked very well. I used it in many sessions, 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:17.039 whether I tripped or guided It provided a framework for 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:21.000 the cascade of images and sensations LSD brought on which 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:24.960 could otherwise be quite overwhelming. It contained verbal maps and 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:28.400 navigational aids. There was a cohort of hippies to which 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:32.000 we belonged, for whom spiritual seeking was a serious goal. 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:36.800 Some of us had left oppressive or unsatisfying traditional religions behind. 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:39.839 This seeking was not akin to the sex, drugs and 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:43.000 rock and roll ethos of many. The old saw if 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:45.679 you remember the sixties, you weren't there did not apply. 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:50.600 We thought of ourselves, perhaps a bit hyperbolically, as pathfinders. 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:54.840 Many modalities were employed in this seeking, including of course 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:59.960 psychedelic herbs and chemicals LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, ayahuasca, and others. 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:03.599 But as happened with Leary, other techniques often came to 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:06.920 supplant the chemical aids. The legacy of this is the 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:11.599 commonplace presence in our culture of yoga, Zen, Buddhism, tai Chi, 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:16.000 and other Asian martial arts, Sufism, kabbala studies, et cetera. 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:19.160 But I want to stress that the chemicals provided the 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:23.160 initial push to open the somewhat sticky doors of perception 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:26.360 I should note that some of these pharmaceutical aids were 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:29.520 tied to specific spiritual traditions of their own and were 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:33.200 regarded as sacred. These were best used in the respectful 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:36.960 manner taught by their respective masters. This is especially true 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:40.799 for peyote, psilocybin, and ayahuasca. We I think we mentioned 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:43.400 that in that episode as well, right we're talking about 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:46.560 um how I think in order to legally do ayahuasca 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:48.080 you have to do it with a member of a 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:51.360 certain tribe present. That's my understanding, at least I've heard 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:56.360 that before. The experience of ecstatic vision is extremely difficult 0:06:56.360 --> 0:06:59.560 to describe in words or even in visual art or music. 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:02.040 Some of the efforts to do so have given us 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:05.479 parts of various holy books. Pretty Much every religion on 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:08.040 the planet has a mystical wing and teams of prophets 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:11.640 who attempt the articulation of their mystical experience, and many 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:16.600 have developed technologies to achieve the experience meditation systems, ecstatic 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:21.080 dance or postures, sacred psychedelic plants, and so on. Naturally, 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:24.600 these technologies are tuned to whatever the particular religion or 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:28.160 philosophy or sect imagines God to be. If you're a 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:30.840 mystical Christian, you are likely to see Jesus when in 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:33.680 an elevated state. As a Jew, I once had a 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:37.440 long visionary dream in which I was a Maccabean warrior. 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:39.960 It may sound pompous to say this, but if one 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:43.280 has not had such experience, it's pretty hard to understand 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:47.240 descriptions of it. Of course, getting glimpses of the gears 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:50.400 of the universe does not automatically make one a sage. 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:53.440 The visions come with the obligation to fulfill them in 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:57.680 good work, as the Buddhists say. Finally, we can agree 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:01.200 that Leary was not really a scientist. He dabbled in science, 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:04.040 learned some of its lingo, but science was not his 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:07.000 native language. What he was instead was a ring master 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:09.760 in the magic theater for mad men only. He was 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:12.880 a showman, and yes, a charlatan like any good Cartney, 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:15.960 but he had a powerful gift of gab. I can't 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:18.480 tell you how often I saw his book The Psychedelic 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:24.560 Experience rescue struggling folks from impending bad trips. In Leary's model, 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.800 a full on acid trip always began with a symbolic 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:33.480 death experience metaphoric or realistic, and this required courage and preparation. 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:37.320 You mentioned Leary's tongue in cheek motto turn on, tune in, 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:40.480 and drop out, as I'm sure you know, drop out 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:43.840 referred to out of the machine, out of the exploit 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:46.400 of culture. Well, we had a sign in the back 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:50.559 of our VW bus named the Collective Unconscious, which said, 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:55.320 turn on, tune in, and drop by. Thanks for listening 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:59.400 to this reverie. Well, that's awesome, I I it's wonderful 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:03.679 to have feedback a from someone who who who was 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:08.880 active at the time, B who knew Leary and uh 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:11.560 and then and then see had had these experiences and 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:14.200 can speak to them in this bit of listener mail. Yeah, 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:16.400 and I loved that Rick was able to provide and 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:18.000 and he wasn't the only one. We received a couple 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:20.080 more emails that were similar to this, But this was 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:22.880 this was amazing. Like I just felt like Rick just 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:28.000 encapsulated everything we were trying to hit with those two episodes. Uh, 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:31.240 there was this general attitude I think that you and 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:32.880 I had at the end of it. We were like, oh, 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:36.400 that's kind of disappointing. Man. Leary just really wasn't the 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:38.480 figure that we hoped you would be. Well, I think 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:41.120 one of the advantages that Rick had here is and 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:44.080 he knew he was. He was their first hand to 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:48.719 see learies flaws and uh, you know, the human qualities 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:51.959 that were that sometimes put him apart from this iconic 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:54.960 vision of him, where whereas we were coming at it 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:58.880 mostly with the the icon in the forefront and then 0:09:59.000 --> 0:10:02.040 reading about the real man and the real struggles behind it, 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:05.080 so it was very textual. We didn't we didn't have 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:08.600 the experience of the human character of his ethos. Yeah, 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:12.640 and uh, And clearly Rick has had more time to 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:17.959 reflect on who Leary was and what what he contributed. Also, 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:20.800 Rick sounds totally amazing a guy who worked in the 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:23.200 e Er for twenty five years and has all of 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:26.480 these cool experiences behind that. I want him to start 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:30.520 a podcast. Yeah, I listen. Alright, let's let's move on 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:34.280 to another bit. Joe, what does Carney have for you? Well, 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:36.560 I thought before we got into Monsters in the bi 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:39.920 Cameral Mind, I would do a roundup of lots of 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:42.680 different emails we got on our episode about the Game 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:45.560 of Werewolf. Robert, I'm sure you're excited to hear some 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:47.760 of this stuff. So we got lots of great emails. 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:51.080 I decided to try to summarize them into a small space. 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:55.679 So our listener, Carissa writes about playing in an online 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:59.080 werewolf group, which sounds pretty awesome, but they've got a 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:01.760 lot of amaze sing extra rolls in the game. Now, 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:04.880 we talked about the standard roles in the game of Werewolf. 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:07.480 You've got the townsfolk, You've got the werewolves who kill 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:09.920 in the night, and you create the mob. You try 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:12.520 to find a werewolf and you execute them and see 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:15.360 how you did. There's also the seer, which we used 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:17.360 in our game, who gets to ask every night if 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:21.800 there's a werewolf. In Carissa's game, there is the Frankenstein monster, 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:25.920 who absorbs the abilities of every town's person who dies. 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:30.559 There is also the teen Wolf, who is who is 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:33.960 apparently so excited about being a werewolf that this person 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:37.079 has to use the word wolf at least once every 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:41.320 day cycle or that character dies. Oh wow, that's that's ingenious. 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:42.760 So you gotta find a way to slip it in 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:47.080 there without people always noticing. Wow, that's that's brutal in 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:50.040 terms of game mechanics. Yeah, there is also the cult 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:53.120 leader who adds one person to the cult every night, 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:55.760 and if the only townspeople left alive are all in 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:59.000 the cult, the cult leader wins. Nice. It's a nice 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:02.280 game within a game. There So multiple people, including Daniel, 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:06.040 contacted us about a very similar online game called Town 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:10.200 of Salem, which sounds pretty cool. Our listener Leon on 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:13.800 Town of Salem says, quote, what's really different than your 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:16.640 live game of Werewolf is the lack of emotion and 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:20.480 human interaction. The ability to watch someone's face twitch as 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:23.080 they're accused of being evil, or hear the strain in 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:25.880 the voice as they defend themselves is lost, which really 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:28.560 changes the dynamic of the game. It makes learning the 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:32.200 minutia of each role that much more important. And I 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:33.800 think that's kind of interesting. I know some of the 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:36.800 studies we looked at said that they found similar dynamics 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:41.120 about what liars tended to do verbally whether the game 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:44.960 was being played online or in real life, and verbally 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:48.440 you know, spoken out loud. But I yeah, I do 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:50.679 have to think it would change some things. I mean, 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:52.959 in our games we played in here in the office, 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:55.760 I could I could sniff you out, man, because I 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:58.520 was just looking at your face. You were trying to say, no, 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:01.120 it's not me, I'm not aware, but you just you 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:04.760 couldn't help but grin. And with the grin, I knew it. 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:07.120 I knew you were the killer. Who in the office 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.880 was like the best at disguising being Awarewolf, It's a 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:13.720 good question. It all happened so fast. I would imagine 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:17.680 was bowling there. Boland would be good at it. He 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:21.440 would been bowling of car stuff of ridiculous history of 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:23.480 stuff they don't want you to know. Yeah. Well, our 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:25.840 producer Alex was there. Yeah, I felt like he did 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:27.760 a pretty good job. He was a great narrator too, 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:31.079 was a great narrator. However, as one of the bearded 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:34.800 gentlemen playing the game instant suspicion, he was aware of 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:39.080 uh and Alex commented that that our colleague Tar he 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:41.800 thinks was the best. Yeah, she was pretty good. She 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:43.360 was pretty good. Now, those of you who don't know 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:46.280 where that probably means nothing, but but let it be 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:50.080 known she is Awarewolf. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, Hey, have you guys, 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:51.880 I got another tie into one of the house stuff 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:55.200 work shows here, Have you guys heard that Strickland over 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:59.959 on tech Stuff has been covering this Mondo game board 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.240 game that just came out about it's related to the thing. Yeah, 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:05.720 I saw something about that. Yeah, and it's apparently very 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:10.120 similar to the mechanics of Werewolf. Yeah, well check that out. Well, 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:12.719 there are a number of games that that certainly incorporate 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:16.080 a similar mechanic. I think one of our our listeners 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:19.160 actually wrote in about the Battlestarkalactica board game that came 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:22.360 out several years ago, Are you a Toaster? Yeah? Are 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:26.200 are you a Cylon? And actually encountered that game before 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:30.600 I ever played Werewolf and had tremendous fun accusing, just 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:34.160 often blindly accusing friends of being a sideline, to the 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:36.080 point that it's still kind of an inside joke with 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:40.400 certain friends, whether whether their cylines. It seems pretty easy. 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:44.160 It's whoever is wearing the slinky red dress, right right? Yeah? Yeah, 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:48.640 that that's sometimes sometimes that'll that'll key and but not always. 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:51.640 The best cue for for seeing guilt in somebody else 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:55.120 is just seeing a slight grind, not a big smile, 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:58.280 with the person who looks a little bit satisfied with themselves. 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:00.760 You know they've done wrong. Believe it's what Lady Gaga 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:04.880 calls poker face. Well, I think one of the things 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:07.000 we talked about too, is that there's often a different 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:09.800 energy in the person when they have to go from 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:12.720 being on the offense to being on the defense, you know, 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:15.640 and and you can see that energy change, and sometimes 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:19.680 you can feel it. I could definitely feel uh, my, my, 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:23.560 my energy shift when I was secretly had a different 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:25.320 role in the game when you had to pretend not 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:28.360 to be the werewolf. Yeah, okay. A couple more are 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:31.120 our listener. Heather mentions that she used to play the 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:33.920 French language version of the game, which of course is 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:38.680 called Lugaru and uh that's French for werewolf, and included 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:41.360 the chaste or the hunter. And that makes me wonder 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:43.520 if the language affects the dynamics of the game. Is 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:47.160 it easier to lie or to spot liars in French 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:51.040 versus English, versus Russian or any other language. I can 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:54.600 speak to this actually because I used to play Mafia 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:58.440 not Werewolf with a lot of Eastern European friends, and 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:00.400 we also played this game that they talk me called 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:03.000 my Hot Check, which is very similar in the sense 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:05.280 that like it's a game about lying and trying to 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:07.840 tell if somebody else is lying or not. And they 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:10.680 definitely were able to read me way easier than I 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:15.640 was able to read them. Which language were you playing in? English? Okay? Yeah, huh, 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:19.120 so like you were at a disadvantage being a native speaker, 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:23.280 I think so. Yeah, Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, it was 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:26.840 a lot of fun because maybe playing the game in 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:30.760 in a secondary language, there's kind of this this firewall 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.520 built up there, like a linguistic firewall. Yeah. Well, they 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:36.800 all spoke English fluently though, and I didn't speak a 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:41.680 lick of the They spoke variations of Polish, check uh, Slovakian, 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:45.880 and yeah, I just whenever they would communicate with one 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:48.080 of them in those languages, maybe that should have been 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:52.560 outside of the realm of of the rules. And well, 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:55.880 this is probably a deeper linguistic question, but do you 0:16:55.920 --> 0:17:00.600 think they were thinking about the game in English? Oh? 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:03.400 That's interesting. I think they were thinking about Mafia in 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:06.760 English for sure, because the concepts were very English to them. 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:08.840 But not when we played my Hot Check though the 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:11.119 game was invented in Russia. Oh is that right? I 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:14.320 didn't want that fascinating as Mafia, like we we celebrate 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:17.640 the werewolf fluff. Really if you want to get technical 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:22.000 on Mafia. It was the first one. Last quick note 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:25.840 from a listener about Werewolf. Our listener Valerie said, well, 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:28.800 she shared a lot of weird and interesting stuff about 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:31.520 growing up in what she describes as a dysfunctional family. 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:34.320 She says, quote, what I generally tell people is that 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:37.639 I was raised by wolves, except that's really unfair to 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:39.679 the wolves. So I am now in search of some 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:42.720 wolves who might adopt me. And it sounds like, given 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:45.520 her life experience and her dim views on the nature 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:48.560 of humankind, she is excited to play. She wants to 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:51.720 get into the life space. So she says, quote, at 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:54.360 the advanced stage of fifty eight, I believe you may 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:57.480 have finally introduced me to the perfect tool for explaining 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:01.360 human social interaction. It's quite good. It really does like 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:04.760 make you think about your friends differently after you play it. 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:08.800 All right, that's it for Werewolf. All right, Well, here's 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:11.120 one Carney is handing me. This one comes to us 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:15.240 from Melanie and she's responding to one of our Monster episodes. 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:18.680 She says, Hey, I'm currently listening to your podcast on 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:22.560 cute Versus Monstrous imagery, and I hadn't really thought about 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:25.640 it before, but there are so many similarities there. Both 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:28.000 types of stimuli are meant to grab your attention, and 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:29.680 I think a lot of factors can push people to 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:32.159 feel one way or the other. Lots of people find 0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:35.600 mice adorable, including myself, but others are scared of them. 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:37.880 I'm terrified of spiders, but I have a friend who 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:41.320 thinks they're cute. I personally even find snakes cute, even 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:43.720 though no one seems to agree with me. I actually 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:46.680 think almost every type of animal is cute, and yet 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:50.040 actual human babies just seem mostly annoying and gross to me. 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:54.600 So I don't really Melanie, something's probably wrong in my 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:58.040 brain on that note, l o l uh. The fact 0:18:58.040 --> 0:18:59.800 that a lot of creatures seem to be able to 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:02.800 go either way, like the II. The I, for anyone 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:06.520 not familiar, is as this wonderful species of lemur that 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:09.720 has these big, huge, huge eyes, and it has this 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:13.399 elongated finger that he uses to like pull grubs, in 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:16.520 sect feel grapes and stuff too. I remember hearing that, 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:18.960 maybe so yeah, but I mean it does seem to 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:21.760 be a horrible hybrid of baby is. Features like the 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:23.920 big eyes are part of the baby schema, but having 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:27.440 long tapering, you know, long limbs, is not having short, 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:29.480 stubby limbs as part of the baby schema. So it 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:32.200 almost seems like, can you imagine a baby with long, 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:36.359 slender limbs that's not cute slender man baby. Yeah, and 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:38.479 it also comes out at night. It's a nocturnal creature. 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:41.000 But it's one of these where when I look at it, 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:44.400 especially a baby obviously, but an adult I I still 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:46.639 looks kind of adorable to me. But it is a 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:50.960 species that has traditionally faced, um, some hardships because of 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:54.640 superstitions regarding it, and so they'll be like superstitious violence 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:59.800 against the II. Anyway, she continues, Um, Yeah, a lot 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:03.080 of these creatures. Quote made me think of your previous 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:05.800 episode where you mentioned the woman who doesn't feel fear 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:09.080 and how in the absence of it, she's actually attracted 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:12.520 to supposedly fearful stimuli. That's the patient s M who's 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:16.240 got the lesion on her amygdala. Right, She says, there 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:19.800 seemed to be these two mechanisms working in tandem, and 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:23.680 different people may have different levels for those mechanisms. Anyway, 0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:25.840 I'm not sure if I'm really bringing up any any 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:28.160 new ideas here, but I thought i'd write in since 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:30.439 I found the topic interesting. I love all of your 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:33.560 Monster episodes. By the way, I'm sad that October is 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:37.200 over because I would definitely listen to Monster Podcast year round. 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:39.439 All your other stuff is great too, of course, but 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:42.520 I have a bias for the Monsters. Thanks for all 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:44.520 the great stuff you put out. I listened to you 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:46.679 guys all the time while I work. Well, here's one 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:49.520 of the things that I'm hoping to see in eighteen 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:54.159 is that Dr Anton Jessoph gets his own podcast. Well, 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:56.320 we'll see. We'll have to have to contact the university 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:59.040 about that. See what, see if he can get funding 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:01.399 for that study. But yeah, I think Melan he had 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:04.240 some wonderful thoughts here about that that cute to monstrous 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:06.320 spectrum that seems to exist. Well. I like how she 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:09.399 draws the connection to that the case of sm that 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:11.919 we discussed from the other Monster episode, that from the 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:16.800 first Monster, where apparently in these cases where there is 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:19.280 a person who has a lesion on their brain that 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:22.800 makes them enable or unable to feel fear when they 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:26.199 see fearful stimuli, instead of just being unaffected by it, 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:29.560 they're very attracted to it, like they want to touch it. Yeah, 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:32.680 it just gets their attention. Yeah. So it's it's more 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:35.440