WEBVTT - Episode 1: The Remains 0:00:00.000 --> 0:00:03.320 The Manowa Caves is intended for mature audiences. It contains 0:00:03.360 --> 0:00:07.240 strong language and depictions of bullying, violence, and sexual assault 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:10.800 that some may find disturbing. Listener discretion is advised. Also, 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:14.280 this is an extremely immersive experience and headphones are recommended. 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:21.400 You're listening to The Manawat Caves, a production of iHeartRadio, 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:54.720 Blumhouse Television and Psycopia Pictures where God, Jesus fuck, don't paying. 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:59.680 Just know you expected this, you play it for it. 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:06.080 The black count are more frequent now, they last longer. 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:10.280 That's why you left this message for yourself, Julian, to 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:14.960 help you remember. First thing I need you to do. 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:20.479 Start the car. You need to drive. Never mind the fog. 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:23.440 Visibility is going to be shipped for a while, doesn't matter. 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:29.160 Just head north and don't stop. No matter what. You 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:32.040 should have at least a half tank, so just drive, 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:38.280 drive until the fall breaks, and hopefully you will do it. 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:44.280 Must be done while you're still able to hit rewind, 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:50.000 go all the way back, then play it, all of it. 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:15.160 We have some breaking news. The Manowa County Sheriff's Department 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:17.720 said they found I'm an identified human remains in the 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:21.359 Appalachian Mountain three days an investigation not to the Erica 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:23.720 and there two they had permission to be here or 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:28.760 if they were trespassing a ghost in the the boys 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:34.280 bodies were lying here in a million door. Remains of 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:37.800 the comment. Hadley and Deacon Hadley, the twin brothers who 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:40.480 were reported missing on May nineteen, along with a third boy, 0:02:40.680 --> 0:03:19.120 James m Okay. Here goes Today's July thirty, twenty twenty one, 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:24.160 Planet Earth, Cold Spring, New York. To be exact, this 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:29.880 is Julian Salisome, thirty three. I'm a writer, well, an 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:37.440 aspiring writer, nothing published yet. Maybe this will be the one. Um, 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:44.280 they say, right, Well, you know, well, this is a story. 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:48.720 I know this is personal, but it isn't an easy 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:53.920 one to tell. Matter of fact, I've been trying to 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:57.720 block it out ever since I left home fourteen years ago. 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:03.760 Like my mother used to say, sometimes the only way 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:06.080 to get to the other side of the mountain is 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:09.320 to go through it. So I guess I'll start there. 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:18.640 It was May May eighteenth, two thousand and seven, the 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:22.120 Hadley brothers, two seventeen year old twins from a prominent 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:26.800 and wealthy family in Maniwa County, went missing it was 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:30.920 the night before high school graduation. They were found ten 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:36.680 days later. The bodies were retreated from inside the mouth 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:39.839 of a cave, along with their cell phones, which contained 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:44.160 haunting audio and grainy images clues to what had happened. 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:52.279 I say, clues, clues fucking so so stupid, scoopy, fucking 0:04:52.320 --> 0:05:02.160 do clues come on? Julian Okay? Starting over? All right? 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:06.960 So um okay? Based on their self Based on their 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:11.440 cell phone records, witness testimonies in the Corners report, it 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:16.799 was likely just after midnight the time of death. Another 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:24.120 boy went missing that day two, James Fincher, we called 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:32.240 him Finch. Finch came from a multiracial family. His mother 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:36.600 was black, his father part Latino and part Cherokee. At 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:39.760 the time of the Havley killings, Finch was only eighteen 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:43.680 years old. Today he's thirty two, and he's on death 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:47.159 row away in execution for the murder of the Haveley boys, 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:52.880 a double homicide in the first degree. But Finch didn't 0:05:52.920 --> 0:06:06.080 do it. Okay. August first, twenty twenty one, just left 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:10.000 New York. I'm driving back to Manua County today. I 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:12.560 don't want to go back. I don't want to do 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:15.920 any of this. Hell, I didn't even go back for 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:19.960 my own father's funeral. And you know what, I was 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:22.480 okay with that, because the part of me that was 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:26.480 born and raised in Manowa County died there too. As 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:29.840 far as I was concerned, I thought i'd put man 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:32.840 to walk behind me for good. But I got a 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:35.920 call about a week ago. Usually don't pick up, but 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:39.279 it was an eight six to five area code. Someone 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:52.839 from home. Hello, Julian, Julian Tallis Yeah, Da Dana Benherm, 0:06:55.680 --> 0:07:01.320 Dana Hey has how how are you? It's been a 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:07.400 long time, fourteen years. Yeah, I'm calling to let you 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:15.400 know about James. Yeah, yeah, how's how's the uh? I mean, 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:19.880 it has been set for the execution. I thought you 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:22.600 might want to know. We're almost out of time now, 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:27.440 so it ain't looking great. I'll be honest. Look, I 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:29.920 know it's been a long time, Julian, and you've moved 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:33.200 on from all this, but we haven't. Okay. Yeah, I 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:36.680 mean I didn't want to call you, but I got 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:43.320 no choice here. I need your help, okay, with what 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:49.040 the appeal. I need you to make a statement. I 0:07:49.160 --> 0:08:02.320 need you to tell the truth about what happened. I 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:06.000 can only imagine how fucked up it would be to 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:12.000 witness in execution. No thanks, I'm not interested in watching 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:18.080 James Fincher die. But I would come back even if 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:28.560 Dana Fincher hadn't called, because I have no choice. I 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:32.640 started waking up from bad dreams drenched in sweat, and 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:41.800 these nightmares are happening more frequently. I'm I'm hearing things too, Voices. 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:46.400 They were quiet at first, they were like whispers and 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:54.160 the static, but the getting louder, and I'm getting I 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:59.200 don't know, flashes like a fever. Dream images looping through 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:03.839 my brain between my waking hours, reliving ship from my childhood, 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:09.920 shift from my past that either forgotten were buried from. 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:13.520 There was a long before the nightmares began warming their 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:16.679 way into my waking moments. The leaky fawsett in my 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:18.960 kitchen started dripping so loud it drowned out the rest 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:22.680 of the world, like the droplets were sliding off salad 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:27.840 tights and splashing into cating pools below. And then there 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:31.599 was the sleep walking. The first time it happened, I 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:32.959 woke up in the middle of the night to find 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:37.360 myself back in a suitcase. The next night, I came 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:40.120 to I was bought ass naked in the kitchen cark. 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:42.839 He's clutched in my hand. Time after that, I was 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:45.000 in the driver's seat in my car, jabbing the key 0:09:45.160 --> 0:09:49.079 repeatedly into the dashboard, just shy the imission. Then a 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:52.520 couple of nights ago, I actually got the car halfway 0:09:52.559 --> 0:10:00.040 down the block before I realized what was happening. So, 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:03.720 you see, it got to the point where I figured 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:05.920 I was coming back to Maniwau County. Whether I wanted 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:09.240 to or not. It seemed to hell a lot safer 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:14.959 to be conscious for the ride. It's another reason I'm 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:20.360 documenting this trip. After each blackout, I'll lose hours of memory. 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:34.120 Willson Mechanical Solutions a stylis. I've known Tyler since I 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:38.040 was little. We grew up together. Who was one of 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:40.520 those guys the teachers wrote off as a burnout, but 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:45.720 who in reality just never bought in. I looked him up. 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:49.679 He's a repair man now, lives in the woods on 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:56.440 the outskirts of Maniwa County, outside of possible. Hey, todd Um, 0:10:56.600 --> 0:11:07.400 it's as Juliana. Julie. Yeah, you gotta be fucking kidding me. 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:15.920 M hmm, Well, holy God damn Julian fucking Solace. Huh 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:22.040 it's me. Well to what do I owe the pleasure? Uh? 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:27.079 I was hoping this will be your number. Well, you 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:33.079 gotta ride bet it is. Yeah. So when you're getting here, what, 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:37.680 how do you know? I wasn't you might be coming 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:45.080 back soon, circumstances being what they are, Tyler as um, 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:52.640 I was hoping. Uh oh, I was hoping, hoping. Come on, 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:58.760 say what you need. Don't be shotting now, motherfucker. I 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:03.960 need to go back to the whole unless that's too much. 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:06.600 I just don't know if I'll be able to find 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:12.960 my way back. It's been so long with Tyler. Tyler, 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:26.400 you're here, okay? Are you sure? Yeah? No, it's cool. 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:37.720 Let's do it. August second. The air smells like rust 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:42.320 and Decayne leaves an asphalt after the rain. It stirs 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:48.800 old thoughts and feelings. It feels haunted. There's something daunting 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:52.960 about the roads into the Great Smokies, a sub range 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:56.120 of Appalachia hiding in the corner of Tennessee, North Carolina. 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:03.319 He got roadside warnings that say dense fog likely These 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:08.880 mountains are ancient and mysterious. Oldest Mountain range on earth. 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:13.959 They crouched low, like they're huddled against you, secretive, covered 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:18.400 in old growth forests. Everything is shadow and missed, and 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:22.719 the fog gets denser the closer I come. It was 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:25.920 only after I crossed the county line that the fog lifted, 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:31.079 like mana walk itself had pulled back the curtain for 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:36.360 another show. Pottsville is the town I grew up in. 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:39.400 It's nestled in the heart of the county, and it 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:43.280 hasn't changed one bit since I left. Still small and poor. 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:46.040 Most folks still find work in the paper mill a 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:48.679 few towns over, or if they're good at bullshit, and 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:52.599 they might get a job at Hadley Chevrolet. If you 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:57.920 were lucky. That's where you weren't my father did. He 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:03.400 ran the mechanic shop of the dealership. Anyway, People here 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:08.320 are poor, most of them double wides and dogs running loose, 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:12.400 the rusted husks of cars on cinder blocks. The main 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:15.160 drag is lined with abandoned and decaying two story mid 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:18.719 century brick buildings, weird antique and second hand shops. A 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:23.640 hardware store started with American flags, and of course the 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:28.960 Lord of First Baptist Church, a fundamental stronghold in the 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:33.200 center circle. I shall not want, oh man. This is 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:37.160 Reverend Perkins from First Baptist and many to lie down 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:40.000 in green pastures. Man likes the sound of his own 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:42.080 voice so much he records every damn one of his 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:45.640 own sermons and posts them on the church website. Thomas 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:50.920 and Deacons, friends and family grapple with their deaths. This 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:57.480 recording is from the archives Hadley Brothers Memorial services. Because 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:03.560 this feels senseless, Why were these two innocent souls taken 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:10.160 from us? These two who shone so brightly and showed 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:14.720 them such a great promise, Why, oh Lord, were they 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:21.240 so truly taken? We asked, innocent souls hardly? Tom and 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:23.800 Diacon Hadley were the sons of Bobby and Mona Hadley, 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:27.160 who owned the Hadley Chevrolet Dealership, one of the most 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:30.360 profitable car lots in the state. They were a wealthy 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:33.360 and powerful family in the community. In many ways, their 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:35.760 money and political ties made this town. There's like they 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:39.880 owned it. A new county ordinance, a new construction permit. 0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:43.560 It was impossible to get anything done in Maniwa County 0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:47.720 without the consent of Bobby Hadley and the power bloated them, 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:52.200 made them cruel. Hadley twins didn't fall far from the tree. 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:57.640 In that sense, we coexisted them and me, sharing the 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:02.840 same habitat on East Elite. They skulked around Manowa County 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:09.840 like predators. They were not identical. Now. Deacon was the 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:12.800 smaller of the two. He was the quiet one. He 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:16.600 wore the silver cross round his neck like a flashy 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:20.320 reminder of the inequities of life, like he was protected 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:24.160 by a righteous order, a constant reminder that some people 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:27.840 can be as sadistic as they please with no consequences. 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:33.320 Thomas was the stand out. He was taller and more lean. 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:38.560 His red hair seemed almost unreal, like it was woven 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:44.760 into his scalp. I remember Thomas strutting through the corriors 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:49.400 of Carter High, always with the same look plastered on 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:53.480 his face, the corners of his lips twisted in a 0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:57.640 permanent grin, and sharp green eyes that seemed to be 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:02.520 staring out from behind a mask. And then there was 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:06.920 his laugh. You could hear it echo across the high 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:13.080 school quad like a fucking hyena, almost always triggered by 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:20.840 some act of casual cruelty. Deacon Hadley was different this one. 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:29.280 Never smiled, never laughed, hardly spoke eyes like scalpels. His 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:34.399 cruelty seemed almost scientific. After their bodies were found, the 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:38.879 autopsies indicated that the Hadley brothers had been attacked, bludgeons 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:42.760 and stabbed. That much as certain the investigation would dig 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:46.879 up town secrets as old and dark as the caves themselves, 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:52.800 it would also change the lives of everyone involved, including me. 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:59.720 After all, I'm the one who found the bodies. Well, 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:04.959 Tyler and me, Damn, we should have been night right now, 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:07.800 Tyler memory as soon as I crossed the county line 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:10.480 and took me on a little hike down memory Lane, 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:14.399 literally remember being closer to the south entrance of the 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:20.359 Manawa Caves, or as we used to call it, the 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:26.520 whole No. To get to the caves, we had to 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:30.560 hop a barbed wire fence, trespass across private property, and 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:32.800 hike all trail for at least a mile through. You 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:39.879 think underbrush, we'll find it. Where are you saying? The 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:46.080 motel all fiveway forty two? I can't believe that place 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:51.200 is still standing up. She's abute, all right, Well, listen, 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:52.800 you get tired of bring the mill, dude, through your 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:57.040 pillow case. Hit me up, I'll clear on the back room. 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:07.600 Oh man, look at that coming out earlier night. Must 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:13.320 be hungry. Yeah, well the Cays were forbidden long before 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:17.360 we started hanging out there. Ever since the teenage boy 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:21.879 was found dead inside back in ninety eight suicide, nobody 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:26.320 went near it after that except us. This should be 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:37.920 it appear around this band nine one one. What's your emergency? Um, 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:43.159 I just need to report. Um, go ahead, sir, I'm listening. 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:49.480 We we found bodies out here. Um did you say bodies. 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:54.320 It's ma'am, Um, it's ma'am. They they've been dead a while. 0:19:55.560 --> 0:20:00.719 Thomas h Dickon Hadley. I think I think it's him 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:06.239 and his brother Thomas. It's uh, he's got it's got 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:10.600 red hair. So I'm okay. Well, can you give me 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:16.760 the address, sir? I don't know address web. Uh, we're 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:19.800 down by the caves. Okay. I'm gonna have you stay 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:22.280 on the line with me until I can get somebody 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:28.520 out there. Yes, uh, oh god damn. They look they 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:33.159 look lived. They were mauld Okay, mald by an animal 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:36.359 or a stabbed or something. I don't know. I don't 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:43.040 I don't know. And you're sure they're not breathing. Yes, man, 0:20:54.040 --> 0:21:06.639 here there it is. Holy shit. The air was cool 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:10.160 and damp and smelled of earth and minerals and eons 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:14.240 of decay. The jetty moss covered granite rocks along the 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:17.879 southwest entrance of the cavern are not unlike reptilian teeth, 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:21.520 and it's easy to imagine a colony of hungry bats 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:24.399 are swirling out of the throat of some prehistoric monster. 0:21:26.359 --> 0:21:30.040 As I stood there, my skin tingled, and I felt 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:34.680 a pull, a weight like a vertigo that spread outward 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:37.320 from my gut, like that feeling you get standing on 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:39.840 the edge of a cliff, like I was looking down 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:45.480 into the earth into an abyss, the caves beckoning me. 0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:51.720 I have trouble remembering that time in our lives, but 0:21:51.840 --> 0:21:55.600 I remember that day we found him. You remember the 0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:59.240 first thought you had, the first thing that came to mund. 0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:08.720 I remember the light from the morning sun. Yeah, it 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:15.280 was just barely creeping into the cave, and it popped 0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:22.959 off Thomas's red hair. That's what caught my eye. Then 0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:27.159 I saw his skin. It stood out against the stones, 0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:35.560 cold blue, and the blood dried all black. But my 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:41.000 brain wouldn't um, except you know what I was seeing 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:44.879 like it was scrambling to make up some other explanation 0:22:44.960 --> 0:22:48.320 of I don't know, shaped dog some shit now buy 0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:54.560 no deer, hell, I don't, I don't know. Anything was 0:22:54.600 --> 0:23:49.320 more acceptable than um, dead kid. This is Jue Campbell. Hey, 0:23:49.600 --> 0:23:53.719 miss Campbell, it's Julian Julian Silas. I don't know if 0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:59.760 you remember mete. Wow, of course I remember. How are you? 0:24:00.560 --> 0:24:06.160 I'm okay. Look I just got back into town. Yes, god, 0:24:07.280 --> 0:24:13.960 it's been fourteen years. I heard you, uh switch teams 0:24:14.200 --> 0:24:18.800 a while back. You're not a deputy anymore. Nope, mitigation specialist. 0:24:20.480 --> 0:24:26.320 This is about James Fincher. Right. Can you make time 0:24:26.359 --> 0:24:37.639 to see me today? Shit? Um, I'm sorry? Can you? 0:24:38.000 --> 0:24:39.920 Can you used to keep starting over because I am 0:24:40.920 --> 0:24:43.600 I'm still firing out the stammer corner here. What do 0:24:43.680 --> 0:24:48.119 you need to record this for? I'm just I'm gathering information, 0:24:48.640 --> 0:24:52.520 like for a book or something. Oh yeah, I hope 0:24:52.560 --> 0:24:56.119 so you know we'll see Look you could help, you 0:24:56.200 --> 0:25:00.160 know it, raise awareness for Finches for James's case, bring 0:25:00.320 --> 0:25:06.639 some public attention, some outside influence. Can you say your 0:25:06.720 --> 0:25:10.760 name and profession? Jill Campbell, I'm a mitigation specialist here 0:25:10.800 --> 0:25:13.320 in the state of Tennessee. And what does that entail? 0:25:14.200 --> 0:25:19.159 So I scrub evidence that trial proceedings, prosecution, defense also 0:25:19.320 --> 0:25:22.520 to look at someone's background and other circumstances that can 0:25:22.640 --> 0:25:26.240 reduce a death sentence to life in prison. Did you 0:25:26.400 --> 0:25:29.040 build a case for Finch? I mean, can you prove 0:25:29.119 --> 0:25:31.320 that he didn't kill the healthy brothers? I work with 0:25:31.480 --> 0:25:35.520 James Fincher's defense attorney, but there's only so many appeals 0:25:35.600 --> 0:25:37.960 you can file in a capital case. You have to 0:25:38.040 --> 0:25:41.480 be strategic in your timing. There was no sorry, but 0:25:41.520 --> 0:25:44.400 there was no physical evidence time James or anyone else 0:25:44.440 --> 0:25:47.080 to the murder of Deacon and Thomas Hadley. Correct. That's right. 0:25:47.840 --> 0:25:51.760 James's conviction and sentence and was based entirely on circumstantial 0:25:51.840 --> 0:25:56.600 evidence and as you know, false testimony. And you were 0:25:56.640 --> 0:26:01.080 a deputy sheriff in Manuel County back in that's right 0:26:01.320 --> 0:26:04.720 two thousand and one to two thousand and three, promoted 0:26:04.720 --> 0:26:07.639 a few times lieutenant in two thousand and seven at 0:26:07.680 --> 0:26:10.960 the time of the Hadley murders. I made captain in 0:26:11.040 --> 0:26:15.160 two thousand and eight. Criminal Investigation. Why did you quit? 0:26:17.520 --> 0:26:20.080 I got into law enforcement because I wanted to do 0:26:20.200 --> 0:26:23.040 some good, but ninety percent of what we were doing 0:26:23.119 --> 0:26:27.560 had nothing to do with justice. Criminal investigation isn't really 0:26:27.600 --> 0:26:34.879 about catching a bad guy, at least not Manawak County. No. No, 0:26:35.520 --> 0:26:40.760 especially homicide. The department is incentivized to find any evidence 0:26:40.800 --> 0:26:44.200 they can to support an eventual prosecution. Whether you have 0:26:44.280 --> 0:26:46.880 the right guy or not, it doesn't matter. The primary 0:26:47.000 --> 0:26:50.360 goal is to make damn sure the prosecution will get 0:26:50.400 --> 0:26:54.320 their conviction. So when the jury returned to death verdict 0:26:54.359 --> 0:26:57.320 for James Fincher, I was upset about it. I knew 0:26:57.359 --> 0:27:00.800 it wasn't right. I was anguished of my part in it. 0:27:01.400 --> 0:27:03.320 I thought I could make a difference from with them. 0:27:03.840 --> 0:27:10.280 That was naive, so I got into defense. This is 0:27:10.359 --> 0:27:15.159 why he came home, isn't it? James Fincher's executions coming up? 0:27:15.200 --> 0:27:20.320 And you're anguish too, Ain't you excuse me? Hey man? 0:27:20.359 --> 0:27:25.560 Can I get a rephill please? There was obvious discrimination 0:27:25.640 --> 0:27:28.480 in the trial from the get go. James Fincher was 0:27:28.600 --> 0:27:32.040 a multiracial man and men in Wake County. He was different. 0:27:32.400 --> 0:27:36.320 He stood out. I want to give a Sheriff Hooper's 0:27:36.359 --> 0:27:40.080 interrogation at James Fincher, good luck with that. What do 0:27:40.160 --> 0:27:43.919 you mean James Fincher doesn't say a thing on those tapes. 0:27:47.320 --> 0:27:52.200 What the hell are you doing here, Julian? I want 0:27:52.240 --> 0:27:55.639 to help. Look, I've worked hard to get the courts 0:27:55.680 --> 0:27:59.680 to recognize that James Fincher does not deserve death. I've 0:27:59.720 --> 0:28:04.119 come piled a comprehensive and well documented psychosocial history of 0:28:04.240 --> 0:28:08.440 James based on an exhaustive investigation, I'm built a case 0:28:08.520 --> 0:28:11.520 on all the factors this early life trauma, then packed 0:28:11.600 --> 0:28:14.960 on his development, including effects on personality and behavior, not 0:28:15.119 --> 0:28:17.960 to mention the bullying and what happened does sister Dina? 0:28:21.240 --> 0:28:23.399 So basically, you're saying he did it, but he couldn't 0:28:23.440 --> 0:28:26.560 help it. Have you given up on his innoc not? No, 0:28:27.600 --> 0:28:30.439 but the people have, the courts have so right now 0:28:30.520 --> 0:28:35.639 untill the real killer turns up. This is our best strategy. Okay, 0:28:35.880 --> 0:28:39.400 but the courts are not hearing it. I'm sure you 0:28:39.560 --> 0:28:43.280 remember the State Supreme Court denied his appeal after the 0:28:43.400 --> 0:28:46.760 sentence and phase of the trial. But we may still 0:28:46.840 --> 0:28:49.600 be able to get the sentence commuted on other grounds, 0:28:50.480 --> 0:28:55.880 commuted to what life, But an innocent man would still 0:28:55.880 --> 0:28:58.320 be locked up for life. Life is better than death. 0:28:58.480 --> 0:29:02.480 Last time I checked. Guess that depends on the circumstances. 0:29:04.160 --> 0:29:06.360 DNA Fincher seems to think that we can still petition 0:29:06.440 --> 0:29:08.600 a higher court inner on the grounds that the key 0:29:08.720 --> 0:29:17.000 witnesses testimony was coerced. Yes, I appreciate Dina's efforts and yours, Julian, 0:29:17.120 --> 0:29:20.440 but you're clinging to threads and I understand you want 0:29:20.480 --> 0:29:22.400 to do the right thing, but that's not going to 0:29:22.440 --> 0:29:24.440 have been enough of the higher court to make the 0:29:24.480 --> 0:29:28.120 ship Birds of Manawa County review James Fincher's case. Again, 0:29:28.840 --> 0:29:32.120 you need to understand how this works and how it doesn't. 0:29:32.800 --> 0:29:36.120 The system did not merely permit the miscarriage of justice 0:29:36.160 --> 0:29:39.200 that got Fincher convicted for a crime he did not. 0:29:39.280 --> 0:29:42.720 The system encouraged it. James Fincher has been convicted and 0:29:42.880 --> 0:29:45.840 he's been sentenced, so at this point, in the eyes 0:29:45.880 --> 0:29:51.320 of the court, he is guilty guilty until proven innocent. Look, 0:29:52.360 --> 0:29:56.720 the only surefire way to stop Fincher's execution is to 0:29:56.840 --> 0:29:59.560 prove he didn't do it. And the only way to 0:29:59.640 --> 0:30:05.360 do that that is to prove dead that what you're 0:30:05.480 --> 0:30:15.880 here to do. If that's what it takes, Yes, ma'am, Look, 0:30:17.200 --> 0:30:18.920 I could probably make a call and see if I 0:30:19.000 --> 0:30:21.400 can't get a hold of those interrogation tapes for you. 0:30:22.640 --> 0:30:26.600 I still got friends in the department over at Hooper Station. Okay, 0:30:26.680 --> 0:30:30.000 I'm not sure it'll do any good though, Okay, thank you, 0:30:30.520 --> 0:30:40.320 thank you, thank you, Joe. Detective Solomon Smith what he 0:30:40.520 --> 0:30:47.520 was on the case. You probably remember him, Detective Solomon Smith. Yeah, 0:30:48.680 --> 0:30:51.640 he believed James was innocent and had some leads on 0:30:51.800 --> 0:30:58.040 some other suspects, but he disappeared. What do you mean 0:30:58.120 --> 0:31:00.720 he disappeared? Well, I don't know what happened to him, 0:31:02.160 --> 0:31:04.080 but if you want to find out who was behind this, 0:31:05.200 --> 0:31:08.719 you should find out what Smith knew. Follow his tracks. 0:31:09.720 --> 0:31:13.120 He may be on those interrogation tapes, and he kept 0:31:13.160 --> 0:31:18.280 an audio logged during the investigation. I'll see what I 0:31:18.360 --> 0:31:29.840 can dig up. Les A Sheriff Kirby Hooper interviewing James 0:31:29.920 --> 0:31:35.080 Fancher case nine four seven three five two June fifth, 0:31:35.200 --> 0:31:44.080 two thousand and seven, ten ten am. Morning, James, how 0:31:44.080 --> 0:31:48.040 are you feeling today? Jill Campbell was true to her word. 0:31:48.560 --> 0:31:50.720 One call from her and the Archives Department handed the 0:31:50.760 --> 0:32:00.120 investigation tapes over. Don't feel like talking today? Huh? I'm 0:32:00.120 --> 0:32:02.360 going to need you to answer a few questions about 0:32:02.400 --> 0:32:05.000 what happened the other day. I think you can do 0:32:05.120 --> 0:32:09.000 that more. Listening to these tapes and hearing Sheriff Kirby 0:32:09.040 --> 0:32:16.960 Hooper's voice again was unsettling. He was an earnest man, humorless. 0:32:17.320 --> 0:32:20.000 In fact, he always seemed perplexed by the laughter of others. 0:32:20.400 --> 0:32:23.600 Sharp eyes and a tall figure. He always wore the 0:32:23.680 --> 0:32:26.520 same dull brown uniform like he was born in it, 0:32:27.320 --> 0:32:30.640 and he would probably be buried into two. His shoulders 0:32:30.680 --> 0:32:34.680 were permanently stooped, like it was some sisophine curse. To 0:32:34.800 --> 0:32:38.880 maintain order in his small corner of the universe, he 0:32:39.040 --> 0:32:41.320 needed to determine to have the brothers cause of death. 0:32:42.520 --> 0:32:49.200 He needed autopsies, but the medical report was confusing to say. 0:32:49.200 --> 0:32:53.400 At least the next show's short force injuries, the Brown, 0:32:53.480 --> 0:32:56.720 the Chess, and the dam and Black show injuries with 0:32:56.880 --> 0:33:01.720 transaction of the lift and tom jug Leavine. Primary and 0:33:01.840 --> 0:33:04.440 perhaps fatal wound begins on the left side of the 0:33:04.480 --> 0:33:09.960 groin and reaches across the testicles. Is gaping measures three 0:33:10.000 --> 0:33:13.600 inches in length with clean edges. With a case like this, 0:33:14.360 --> 0:33:17.400 there's not really anyone with the right sort of training 0:33:17.920 --> 0:33:22.320 or experience to decipher the clues. Sure as hell not 0:33:22.520 --> 0:33:26.480 Sheriff of bro So we quickly named James Fincher the 0:33:26.520 --> 0:33:29.280 prompt suspect in the case. You gotta be scared right, 0:33:30.520 --> 0:33:35.479 tired of strangers poking and pridden at you. I can 0:33:35.560 --> 0:33:39.800 make all that stop games, I can make them go away, 0:33:42.000 --> 0:33:45.760 but you're gonna have to talk to me if you 0:33:45.880 --> 0:33:49.680 want that to happen. You're gonna have to tell me 0:33:49.920 --> 0:33:54.240 what you were doing in those games with those boys. 0:33:56.920 --> 0:33:59.000 I played this first audio file in the car and 0:33:59.080 --> 0:34:05.440 had to pull over. Something about it felt eerily familiar. 0:34:06.120 --> 0:34:08.879 It wasn't just the sound of Sheriff Hooper's interrogation, though 0:34:08.960 --> 0:34:13.840 that dredged up some old feelings, for sure. It was 0:34:13.960 --> 0:34:17.120 the sort of static hits of the state owned recording device. 0:34:18.160 --> 0:34:23.319 It was agitating. It made something in my brain itch, 0:34:23.719 --> 0:34:43.359 something panic. I came back to man a walk after 0:34:43.440 --> 0:34:46.320 I started waking up from bad dreams, drenched in sweat, 0:34:47.440 --> 0:34:49.440 and then one morning when I caught myself in the 0:34:49.520 --> 0:34:55.280