1 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Hello. 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 2: How come your French is so much better than mine? 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:10,120 Speaker 3: I think everybody's friends? 4 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 2: Why is that? 5 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 3: Because we listen? We don't listen? 6 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 2: I mean I was in French immersion with all you guys. 7 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 4: What you're either daydreams or you're talking. 8 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 2: Do you know what it sounds like? You're on all 9 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 2: those French immersion teachers sides that I had throughout the years, 10 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 2: That's what they used to say, lune, which means your 11 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 2: head in the class the avoir. 12 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 5: Jackie, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna you know, you know, 13 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 5: I'm getting close to the hangoup eh. 14 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:43,919 Speaker 2: You could feel like coming. 15 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:47,520 Speaker 5: When you start getting on my nerves right about now, 16 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 5: right right now. 17 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 2: From Gimlet Media, I'm Jonathan Goldstein and this is Heavyweight 18 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:20,759 Speaker 2: today's episode Doctor Mueller. Growing up, a single question dominated 19 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:24,839 Speaker 2: my thoughts. What was the use? What was the use 20 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 2: of getting out of bed, of combing your hair, of 21 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 2: breathing all that breathing? What was the use of anything 22 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 2: when all of life inevitably came grinding to an end. 23 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 2: By seventeen, I was waking up in the middle of 24 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 2: the night, seized by the meaninglessness of it all. By 25 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 2: eighteen I started to lose my hair. At nineteen I 26 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 2: dropped out of college, and at twenty I knew I 27 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 2: had to do something, so I began seeing a therapist. Initially, 28 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 2: the idea felt romantic, like something out of JD. Salinger 29 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 2: or Hitchcock. At our first appointment, I might have even 30 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 2: worn a blazer. My new therapist extended a hand and 31 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 2: introduced herself as doctor Mueller, and for the next six years, 32 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 2: that was the only name by which she was known 33 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 2: to me. Doctor Mueller never referred to me by my 34 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 2: first name either. Instead, she called me mister Goldstein, which, 35 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 2: because she spoke with a heavy German accent, she pronounced Goldstein. 36 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 2: The first and only time I tried correcting her, she 37 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 2: simply said, it is Goldstein. Doctor Mueller was raal Thinn. 38 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 2: Appeared to be in her late sixties and wore her 39 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,959 Speaker 2: hair in a grayish bowl cut. She favored turtlenecks and 40 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 2: macrom vests and sat behind an imposing desk, empty except 41 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 2: for a telephone and a neat stack of small note papers. 42 00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 2: At the end of our first appointment, she asked me 43 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 2: to write up a one page family history. Instead, I 44 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 2: took a deep dive into my childhood. I wanted her 45 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 2: to have all the source material she'd need to get 46 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 2: to the bottom of my morbid disposition, and so the 47 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,519 Speaker 2: following week I proudly presented her with a book length memoir. 48 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 2: Doctor Mueller skimmed through it and then silently stuck my 49 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 2: tone in a drawer and never brought it back up. 50 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 2: So several sessions later, I did, I am not very 51 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 2: interested in the past, she said, I'm more interested in 52 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 2: the present. What are you going to do now? 53 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 6: She asked? 54 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 2: What I was going to do now? I hoped was 55 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 2: talk about my past, but doctor Mueller could care less. 56 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 2: A therapist uninterested in the past ran contrary to everything 57 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 2: I thought I knew about therapy. It was like a 58 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 2: carpenter who refused to work with wood. More than that, 59 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 2: it was like a carpenter who hated wood, and if 60 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 2: you brought them wood, they'd throw it in a concrete 61 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 2: drawer and never mention it again. Wasn't excavating the past 62 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 2: pretty much a therapist's whole job. Where else does one 63 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 2: find answers? Doctor Mueller's unwillingness to even acknowledge my past 64 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,679 Speaker 2: was confounding, but so were a lot of things about 65 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 2: her Sometimes she'd inexplicably show up wearing a neck brace. 66 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 2: Other times she'd spend frantic minutes buffing out an invisible 67 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 2: scuff mark from a waiting room chair. Then there were 68 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 2: the long anecdotes about car trouble, a trip. She was planning, 69 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 2: stories that went nowhere and were illustrative of nothing I 70 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 2: could fathom, And all the while, whole precious expensive minutes 71 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 2: elapsed in which I could neither whine nor complain my 72 00:04:50,839 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 2: way to mental health. It felt positively wasteful. Doctor Muller's 73 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 2: office was in a large old echoe building downtown. Our 74 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 2: appointments happened around dusk, and in my memory it's always 75 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 2: the dusk of winter, cold and wet Montreal winter. From 76 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,559 Speaker 2: behind her desk, lit by a desk lamp, she spoke 77 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 2: of giving birth to one's authentic self, a self that 78 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 2: wasn't all tangled up and regrets about the past or 79 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 2: consumed by anxiety over the future, AKA a self that 80 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 2: didn't sound very Jonathan Goldsteiny. In every session, doctor Muller 81 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 2: repeated the same refrain, you must give birth to yourself. 82 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 2: What could she possibly mean? I asked my girlfriend at 83 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 2: the time, Barbara was working on her bachelor's in psychology, 84 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 2: and in my darker moments, I felt certain her relationship 85 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 2: with me was a part of her field work. It 86 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 2: might be a gestalt thing, she said, uncertainly, but I 87 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 2: don't know that gestalt therapy is even a thing anymore. 88 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 2: Week after week, doctor Muller and I sat in a 89 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 2: dark room as I tried in vain to birth myself. 90 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 2: On a bad day, she would reprimand me for not 91 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 2: doing as she instructed. On a good day, she would 92 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 2: say that I was very very close. My authentic self 93 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 2: was crowning. Was this just her line, I wondered, something 94 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 2: doctor Mueller told all her patients. I grew increasingly frustrated. 95 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 2: I was still lost, still waking up at noon, still 96 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,599 Speaker 2: spending my days watching video rentals and smoking cigarettes in 97 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:42,239 Speaker 2: my parents' basement, Still showing up for appointments with doctor 98 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 2: Muller for conversations that felt as pointless as life itself. Finally, 99 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 2: after being told for the umpteenth time that the miracle 100 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 2: of birth was nigh, I grew at It's hard to 101 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 2: hear this year after year, I said. I told her 102 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:09,239 Speaker 2: that we must be doing something wrong. It is not working, 103 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 2: she said, because of you. She spoke the words quietly 104 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 2: but firmly. I was taken aback. It had to be 105 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 2: something more than just me, if only slightly, maybe a 106 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 2: tiny bit, because of her. I mean, she was sitting 107 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 2: in the room as much as I was, Even in 108 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,559 Speaker 2: my insecure state. Her conclusion felt off, and I said, 109 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 2: so it is because of you, she repeated. Was a 110 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 2: therapist even allowed to say that? How could she refuse 111 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 2: to share in this failure? I think maybe this should 112 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 2: be our last session, I said. Ending things was something 113 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 2: I'd been thinking of doing for a while. But you 114 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 2: have yet to find a philosophy, she said, words to 115 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 2: live by that will ease self birth. Not everyone needs 116 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 2: a philosophy. I responded, that is true, she said, but 117 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 2: you do. At the end of the hour, doctor Mueller 118 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 2: rose from behind her desk and opened the door for me. 119 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 2: She smiled warmly, sincerely, no edge at all. The blame 120 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 2: she'd cast, in combination with the simplicity of her goodbye, 121 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 2: was chilling. She shook my hand, ending one of the 122 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 2: most intense personal relationships I'd had up until that point 123 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 2: in my life, And then just like that, I was 124 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 2: back in that echoee hallway. Wondering what the hell had 125 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 2: just happened. It's a question I still don't have an 126 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 2: answer for. When you're young, because the world is small 127 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 2: and new, so many experiences confuse you. But as you 128 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 2: grow older, the odd things fall into place and you 129 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 2: look back with something approaching clarity. But after thirty years, 130 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 2: my experience with doctor Mueller somehow feels more mysterious, more 131 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 2: difficult to parse than it did when I was twenty. 132 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 2: You go to therapy to form a more coherent narrative 133 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 2: out of your life, Yet paradoxically, the chapter of my 134 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 2: life with doctor Muller remains one that I've never really 135 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 2: been able to make sense of, and so I still 136 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 2: find myself asking who was this person? And was she 137 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 2: a bad therapist or was I a bad patient? Although 138 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 2: doctor Muller died in two thousand and three, I recently 139 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 2: realized there might still be a way to find out. 140 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 2: In recent months, I find myself moving away from traditional 141 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 2: psychotherapy and towards a more improvisational mental health regimen. That is, 142 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 2: I stay up late while drinking beer and watching old movies. 143 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 2: It's while watching at close range a Shan Penn Christopher 144 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,559 Speaker 2: Walkin film from the nineteen eighties that I realized I'd 145 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 2: already seen it in a college class, and with this recollection, 146 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 2: I remember the professor who taught the class, and the 147 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 2: one time i'd seen him outside of his classroom. It 148 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 2: was in doctor Muller's waiting room. I'd seen him exiting 149 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 2: her office, or at least I think I had. The 150 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 2: moment was long ago and so fleeting, But if true, 151 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 2: this memory had the power to tear open a potential wormhole, 152 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 2: connecting me to my past as a kid in therapy. 153 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 2: For the first time, I had no perspective on doctor Mueller. 154 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 2: But here was a full fledged adult patient of hers, 155 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 2: a professor, no less, who'd have the experience and insight 156 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 2: to cast the decisive vote in the was it me 157 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 2: or was it Muller referendum? Was she just weirdly hung 158 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 2: up on this notion of self birth? Or was I 159 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 2: just too young to get it? With the movie paused 160 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 2: in the background, I paced the floor of my living room. 161 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 2: A plan begins to take shape. All I have to 162 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 2: do is break all the rules of therapy, of polite 163 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 2: society and track down a now elderly professor who taught 164 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 2: at a school I dropped out of to inquire if 165 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 2: it had been him i'd seen exiting my therapist's office 166 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 2: thirty years ago. Yes, I agreed, nodding my head to 167 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 2: no one in particular, three beers into a six pack 168 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 2: of Tall Boys at two in the morning. This was 169 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 2: an excellent idea, find the man who can supply context. 170 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 2: What was wrong with a little context? The only problem was, 171 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 2: after thinking as hard as I could, I could not 172 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,959 Speaker 2: remember the professor's name. How long has it been. It's 173 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 2: been a while, oh man, Yeah, it has been a while. 174 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 2: A visit to the school's website tells me nothing about 175 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 2: my old professor, but I do discover that the present 176 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 2: chair of his department is an old college friend. Dana 177 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 2: and I haven't spoken in close to twenty years. How 178 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 2: are things with you? 179 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: They're good. They're good. 180 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 6: Yeah, things are? 181 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 2: You know what? 182 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: He? 183 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 2: Dana tells me how much he enjoys teaching English, and 184 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 2: I tell her that i'd recently been guiltily reading Madame Bovary, 185 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 2: a book on the required reading list back when we 186 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 2: were in school that I never actually read, and I 187 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 2: must have started it because I found some of my 188 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 2: marginalia that makes me like hate myself when I was 189 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 2: at a I underline this whole paragraph, and in the 190 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 2: margin I wrote espanolism. 191 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 3: Question mark, and what could that even have possibly meant? 192 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 2: Eventually I explained the reason for my call, how I'm 193 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 2: in search of a professor from her department, whose name 194 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 2: I could not remember, but who may or may not 195 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 2: have had a ringside seat to the development of my 196 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 2: young psyche. I proceed to describe the professor the best 197 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 2: I can. The guy had kind of like black, curlyish hair, 198 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 2: maybe kind of balding. His first name might have been Rob, 199 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 2: could have been Bob. I offer Dana all the detail 200 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 2: I can. He seemed to enjoy chewing gum once during 201 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 2: the warmer weather. He might have taught while wearing a 202 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 2: panama hat. 203 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 3: None of that is ringing a bell with me. 204 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 2: After a while, I just give up. Well, thank you. 205 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 2: It was nice. It was nice talking to you, no problem. 206 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 7: It was nice talking to you too. 207 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: It's as we're about. 208 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 2: To get off the phone, one more small, unhelpful detail 209 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 2: pops into my head and immediately out of my mouth. 210 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: It's a surprise. 211 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 2: You know, he had a mustache at some point. 212 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 1: Is it possible his name was Maury. 213 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 2: Maury, that is the guy. 214 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 3: Oh, well, there you go. 215 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 2: After the break, Professor Moury. 216 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 3: Hello, Jonathan, Hey, Maury, I got through. 217 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: Yeah hear me. Okay, yeah, I can hear you. 218 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 3: Where where I am. 219 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 2: Where Moury is is Jamaica, sitting with his neighbors in 220 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 2: the communal yard. And after all these years he's still professorial. 221 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 3: You know Bob's song and no Woman, no crime. You 222 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 3: know Georgie lit a firelight in a tenement yard in 223 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 3: French time. You can't really understand what that is, gonna 224 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 3: that you've actually been in one of them. 225 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 2: Mary spends half the year in Jamaica, and as soon 226 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 2: as he got my message asking if we could speak, 227 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 2: he phoned right back. Every so often he's interrupted by 228 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 2: the neighbor's daughter elect and her toddler's sister TESSI. 229 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 3: Alexi, your phone, n take her into the yark. 230 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 2: Please, no, no, no, Maury. A Jew has been working 231 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 2: on a documentary with Bob Marley's granddaughter a Rosta about 232 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 2: the relationship between Jews and Rostas and their cultural overlaps. 233 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 2: Like what overlaps? 234 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 3: You know, the groups that are quite orthodox, they don't 235 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 3: eat pork, while I. 236 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 2: Do find the subject of Mary's documentary semi interesting. The 237 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 2: questions I'm asking are not in service to that semi interest, 238 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 2: but rather to staving off the moment I have to 239 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 2: announce the invasive nature of my phone call. 240 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 3: Dreadlocks are from the same Biblical injunction that leads to 241 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 3: a Pacific Jews wearing beers. 242 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 2: The whole point of therapy is to have a sacred 243 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 2: space separated from the rest of the world, free from 244 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 2: the judgment of others. And here I was phoning up 245 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 2: a stranger to ask, mind if I poke around in 246 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 2: your sacred space a bit any hot takes on the therapist? 247 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 2: Did she un crazy you? Or are you like still not? 248 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 2: Maury would have every right to bang down the phone 249 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 2: on my face, and so I keep deferring. Is the Rastafarian? 250 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 2: Is it connected to the Lost Tribes? 251 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 3: Uh? There could be like, it's not really. 252 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 2: We go back and forth for almost half an hour, 253 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 2: all the while Maury never asks why I'm phoning Testy 254 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 2: come on to say hello, Hello, Jonathan, Hi, Tessy. Having 255 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 2: exhausted every possible way to put off asking my question, 256 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 2: every digression, every subject change, every attempt to keep Maury's 257 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 2: two year old neighbor on the phone. I'm left with 258 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 2: no recourse but to finally get to the point of 259 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 2: my weird, out of nowhere social call. So I just 260 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 2: dive in anyway, so so so, yeah, should I'll tell 261 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:06,360 Speaker 2: you why I'm phone so I I have a pretty 262 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 2: strange question and and I'm I'm just gonna say that 263 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 2: right out the gate. Basically, the reason I'm calling you 264 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 2: is because there was a moment where our lives crossed 265 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 2: and just totally in a very coincidental way, and I 266 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 2: was reminded of it. Yeah, just as I'm finally getting 267 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 2: to it. 268 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 3: Tessie, she grabbed a tiny little plastic wrap bit of weeds, 269 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,360 Speaker 3: was running out with it. I didn't know what she would. 270 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 4: Do with it. 271 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:44,880 Speaker 2: You know, She's not gonna smoke it. 272 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 3: She'd have to unwrap the plastic and build a split, 273 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 3: which I can't do. I have a lot of problems 274 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 3: doing it. 275 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. Once the cheech and chong gask shenanigans are behind us, 276 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 2: I resu merely mouthing my way through a procession of preambles. 277 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 2: You know, don't I don't want to make you uncomfortable 278 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:08,679 Speaker 2: or anything. I want you to be you know, comfortable 279 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 2: answering this, and if you don't want to, totally fine. 280 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 2: I used to see this therapist and I have this memory, 281 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 2: and it might be I might be misremembering, even is 282 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 2: of being in the waiting room and seeing you leave 283 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:35,479 Speaker 2: her office, doctor Mueller. Maury is so unfazed by my question, 284 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 2: I'm inclined to wonder whether he's boguarded Little Tessie's joint. 285 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 2: Without any ado, he just jumps right in, telling me 286 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 2: he began seeing doctor Muller during a creative block and 287 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 2: continued to see her for four years. 288 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 3: I found her very interesting, and I also found her 289 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 3: very rude in some way. I don't I don't remember 290 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 3: exactly what age she was, but she was kind of 291 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,479 Speaker 3: on the older side for deex diving. And then there 292 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 3: was a thing of at the horses, which I can't remember. 293 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 2: Maury and I swap old memories. It's validating doctor Muller 294 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:06,919 Speaker 2: was odd. 295 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 3: Why does anybody wear two pired glosses unless they're an 296 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 3: alien with six eyes? Is she just off a USO? 297 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 3: You know something? I got that feeling that she was 298 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 3: some sort of alien. 299 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 2: Murray remembers how angry she get if he was even 300 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 2: a few minutes late, how harsh she could be in her. 301 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 3: Method and the method. To me, the method always seemed 302 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,880 Speaker 3: like a bit you know, it's not interesting to talk 303 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 3: about killing what happened to you when you're six years old? 304 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 3: You know, It's like, what are you going to do now? 305 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 3: What is your next step? 306 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 5: Yeah? 307 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, And even she wasn't even really that interested in feelings. 308 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 3: It was really more of a that's the term that 309 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 3: she constantly use. What is your concept? What is your 310 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 3: concept of how you are going to deal with this? 311 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 3: You have to formulate a concept you haven't yet formula. 312 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 3: I think she thought that I wasn't formulating enough concepts. 313 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 2: I tell Maury about the note that doctor Mueller and 314 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 2: I had parted on how she'd been crossed because of 315 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 2: my failure to birth myself. When I ask of self 316 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 2: birth was something they'd also talked about, he says no. 317 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 3: But I had the same feeling with her. This isn't, 318 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 3: you know, quite working the way it should. And eventually 319 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 3: she just said, I don't think you need me anymore. 320 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 1: She didn't say, you. 321 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 3: Know, uh, this is useless either. We're not getting anywhere. 322 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 3: She actually said, I think we've gone to where we 323 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 3: want to get and maybe she was right. I don't know. 324 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 2: You know, well, that sounds kind of like a nice 325 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 2: way to end therapy as far as those things go. Yeah, 326 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 2: sure he wasn't handed a certificate with the word cured 327 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,119 Speaker 2: stamped on it. But getting to where you want to 328 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 2: go is a more dignified end to therapy than I managed. 329 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,360 Speaker 2: Maybe it wasn't with honors, but at least Morey had 330 00:20:50,400 --> 00:21:00,040 Speaker 2: graduated rather than dropped out. Just as one of the 331 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 2: strangest telephone calls of my life comes to an end, 332 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 2: Maury casually mentions that he just so happens to be 333 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 2: in touch with another of doctor Muller's former patients, and 334 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 2: one who, unlike the both of us, wasn't confused by 335 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,360 Speaker 2: doctor Mueller at all. Mary encourages me to give him 336 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 2: a call. 337 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: I've seen a couple of therapists over the years, Yeah, 338 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 1: and she wasn't my favorite. 339 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 2: After a breakup left him devastated, Michael went to doctor 340 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 2: Muller for help. 341 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: She wasn't crazy about listening so much. I mean, in fact, 342 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,640 Speaker 1: she did a lot of the talking, and it got 343 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: into a kind of who's talking now competition. She sort 344 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: of reprimanded me huh, which I thought was kind of strange. 345 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 2: Michael's memory spark one of my own. One day, during 346 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 2: a fit of coughing, I asked doctor Muller for water. 347 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 2: There was a sink in the corner of her room, 348 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 2: but no cop I needed a glass of water, and she. 349 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: She told you to go to the sink and use 350 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,360 Speaker 1: your hands right, cupped your hands. 351 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, how do you know? 352 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 1: Because she told me to do the same thing. 353 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 2: Hunching over the sink and cupping my hands together to 354 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 2: catch the flow of water from doctor Muller's spout. I 355 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 2: felt like someone from the Bible, like a bear. Until 356 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 2: now I'd been alone with my b steal memories no more. 357 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 2: But when I bring up the business of giving birth 358 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 2: to myself, as in how nutty was all that, I'm 359 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 2: surprised by his response. 360 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: I can't remember ever saying anything like that to me. 361 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 4: Hey you hi, Jonathan, Hey Judith, it's Judy. 362 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 2: Actually, oh Judy, Okay, Judy, I'm sorry. Michael has put 363 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 2: me in touch with yet another patient of doctor Muller's, 364 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 2: the person who recommended he see her in the first place. 365 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 2: Because unlike Michael, Morey and me, which, by the way, 366 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 2: sounds like a Jewish folk trio. Judy loved doctor Mueller 367 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 2: so much so that she always refers to her as 368 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 2: the fantastic Doctor Mueller. Judy's a painter who began seeing 369 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 2: doctor Mueller in the mid seventies because Judy's lack of 370 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 2: confidence in her own work was threatening to derail her career. 371 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 2: Hear me, yes, I could hear you, Nor how's that? 372 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: Is that better? Is that better? 373 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 5: Jonathan? 374 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:26,880 Speaker 2: I think it is. I think it's a little better. 375 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 2: I think so. Judy says, doctor Muller's approach went beyond talk, 376 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,679 Speaker 2: beyond even the confines of the office. 377 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 4: She went to my gallery to see my work, and 378 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,880 Speaker 4: the gallery dealer greeted her and showed her my work. 379 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 2: Sure, Judy had talked in therapy about her self doubts 380 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 2: as an artist, but she never would have anticipated doctor 381 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 2: Muller actually going to see her work. 382 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 4: Meanwhile, I had gotten a phone call from the gallery 383 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 4: dealer saying, who is that to cut people off? I 384 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 4: mean it was like really, but law, I mean it was. 385 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 4: She had a very severe profile there. 386 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 2: But the point is, Judy says that doctor Muller loved 387 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,679 Speaker 2: what she saw that day, and hearing that at that 388 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 2: particular moment in her life from someone has no nonsense, 389 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 2: as doctor Muller gave Judy the confidence she was looking for. 390 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 4: I just accepted her, I guess idiosyncrasies because she was 391 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 4: one hundred percent in my court. She stepped in in 392 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 4: moments that were difficult. 393 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 2: Judy experienced a different side of doctor Muller, one that 394 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 2: I never could have even imagined. And the more we talk, 395 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,360 Speaker 2: the more I realize how different our experiences had been. Well, 396 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 2: my doctor Muller had been largely inscrutable. Judy's doctor Muller 397 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 2: loved the Beatles. Judy got to know a doctor Muller 398 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 2: who'd always wanted to be an actor, who took vacations 399 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 2: alone to go scuba diving, and described swimming alongside a 400 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 2: manta ray as one of the most meaningful encounters of 401 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 2: her life. Judy's Doctor Muller was the type of person 402 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 2: who blushed after making a sly joke, who got a 403 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 2: look of satisfaction when she hit on something deep. And 404 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 2: this is why on the wall of Judy's art studio, 405 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 2: beside pictures of her friends, her family, and her dogs, 406 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 2: hangs a photograph of the fantastic doctor Mueller doctor Muller 407 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 2: devised a treatment plan uniquely tailored to Judy. Judy had 408 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 2: needed confidence and reassurance, and doctor Muller went out and 409 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 2: gave it to her. If she'd done that for Judy, 410 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,679 Speaker 2: perhaps she'd also done the same for other patients. With 411 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 2: that in mind, I asked Judy if during the course 412 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 2: of her therapy, doctor Muller had ever mentioned giving birth 413 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 2: to herself. But Judy has no idea what I'm talking about. 414 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 2: After thirty years of obsessing, it on me that doctor 415 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,440 Speaker 2: Mueller might have tailored this notion of self birth specifically 416 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 2: to me. 417 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 6: My mother was a violent, bipolar, manic depressive. 418 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 2: This is Judy's husband, Neil. 419 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 6: Who also was very, very intelligent, brilliant. She's a painter, 420 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 6: she was capable of a lot, but she was also 421 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 6: very aggressive and unable to be a mother. 422 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 2: Neil and Judy were newlyweds when Judy encouraged him to 423 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 2: start seeing doctor Mueller. For the most part, things in 424 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 2: Neil's life were going great. His career was taking off, 425 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 2: and he finally felt settled. But when it came to 426 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 2: dealing with his mother, Neil says he had no control. 427 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 2: She'd phoned at all hours, sometimes even threatening suicide. One night, 428 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 2: she phoned saying she was about to jump off her balcony, 429 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 2: and so that very night, Neil rushed to the airport 430 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 2: to fly to her. When he arrived at her home, 431 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 2: he expected to see her body on the ground outside, 432 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 2: but she was inside her apartment. She just wanted to 433 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 2: see him. What finally pushed him to the breaking point 434 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 2: was the time he called her from his hotel while 435 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 2: away on a business trip. 436 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 6: And she says, you're having an affair. And she gets 437 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 6: into this vile bile about me having an affair and 438 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 6: betraying my marriage. I'm going to tell your wife. 439 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 2: Neil wasn't worried that his wife would believe his mother. 440 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 2: He was worried about the Lanes' mother was willing to 441 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 2: go to to assert control. 442 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 6: I told my wife, I said, don't worry. I'm taking 443 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 6: care of it. You know, she's crazy again. She's leaving 444 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 6: these messages, but I'm making it better. I'm taking care 445 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 6: of it or whatever. I said that, and my wife 446 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 6: began to cry. She said, you'll never take care of it. 447 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 6: This will never go away. 448 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 2: Neil was a full grown man with no idea how 449 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,439 Speaker 2: to deal with his mother desperate, he played doctor Muller 450 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 2: the threatening voice messages his mother had left. 451 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 6: Doctor Muller just she bowed her head and she just 452 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 6: looked down and she said, oh wow. She was like 453 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 6: really like, oh wow. And she gave me a script. 454 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,239 Speaker 6: She said, okay, say this. 455 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 2: Neil still has the original piece of paper upon which 456 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,120 Speaker 2: he dictated doctor Muller's words. 457 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 6: This is a little kind of yellowye, you know, two 458 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 6: by four pieces of paper. It says here, dear mother, 459 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 6: what you've done has done damage to my life. From 460 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 6: here on. You can sustain a relationship with me if 461 00:28:54,720 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 6: you behave in a positive, constructive way. But at the 462 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 6: moment it's better that we don't talk. I think that's 463 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 6: kind of world. I mean, there's nothing really more. 464 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 2: Neil acknowledges that it wasn't much, really, just a couple 465 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 2: of lines, but for him, it was enough. It was 466 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 2: the first time he'd ever dared talk to his mother 467 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 2: this way. 468 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 6: It was hard for me to read this, you know, 469 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 6: I was scared. 470 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 2: After he read it. Neil says he and his mother 471 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 2: didn't speak for ten years. 472 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 6: Which sounds insane for people who have normal parents. And 473 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 6: you know, I mean, I'm always measuring this, but she 474 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 6: knew I was never going to come back until she 475 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 6: started to behave better. 476 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 2: And so a decade passed and then one day. 477 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 6: My mother called me, huh, and she was totally cooled out. 478 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 6: She just said, I'm really sorry. Wow, I get it, 479 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 6: I understand you were right. I please forgive me, Please 480 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 6: forgive me, And her voice had all of that in it. 481 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 6: It wasn't she was. She really meant it. And from 482 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 6: that day forward, if you can believe it, we had 483 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 6: a relationship after that, a loving one. 484 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 4: Hm. 485 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 6: She never lashed out or was aggressive. It was over 486 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 6: and I had that relationship with her up until my 487 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 6: mother passed away a couple of years ago. Whatever it 488 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 6: was that never would have had those final few years 489 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 6: with her. I have it because of the sessions with 490 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 6: doctor Mueller. So imagine, excuse me, so imagine how I 491 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 6: think about doctor Mueller. 492 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 2: Toward the end of Neil's therapy, Doctor Mueller was diagnosed 493 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 2: with cancer. It made her weak, and in the last 494 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 2: year she would disappear during their sessions for long stretches 495 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 2: in the bathroom. 496 00:30:55,760 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 6: The last time I saw her, she she shook my 497 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 6: hand goodbye. It was a very brave gracious, dignified thing. 498 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 6: The way she did it, she said good luck. I 499 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 6: mean she meant that. She was like saying good luck 500 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 6: with all of you, all of you, Neil, like just 501 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 6: good luck. And she looked at me in the eye 502 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 6: and anyway, so she shook my hand, and that forever 503 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 6: is like burnt into my brain. 504 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 2: About a year after Neil stopped singing her, at the 505 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 2: age of seventy seven, doctor Mueller died of cancer. As 506 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 2: with me, doctor Muller wasn't very interested in learning about 507 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 2: Neil's past, but unlike me, from time to time Neil 508 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 2: did learn something about hers, particularly towards the end as 509 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 2: the bigger issue and his therapy receded and a sort 510 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 2: of friendship emerged. They just talked sometimes about a family 511 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 2: life back in Germany. 512 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 6: I think they were fairly wealthy. I think a very 513 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 6: professional wealthy family. I think her father was a doctor. 514 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 6: They had a beautiful home, many stories, and then the 515 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 6: Nazis came and they absconded their home and used it 516 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 6: for the headquarters. And her bitterness about the war is 517 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 6: that as a German she was regarded as the enemy. 518 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 6: So I think that kind of smarted. She constantly talked 519 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 6: about Jews were not the only victims, and it was 520 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 6: confusing for her to work with Jews. I think she 521 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 6: never said that, but I think that, you know, she 522 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 6: saw a lot of Jewish people in Montreal, and you know, 523 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 6: in the attitude towards sermons. So I think that had 524 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 6: to play back on her own wounds, because she exposed 525 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 6: her wounds. And I think I always thought that her 526 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 6: we were also we were a part of her therapy. 527 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 2: Was her Jewish clientele merely a coincidence? Or were we, 528 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 2: as Neil believed, a part of doctor Muller's own therapy. 529 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 2: And if we were, what was she trying to heal? 530 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 2: Was there some part of her past that she couldn't 531 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 2: simply stick in a desk drawer and never bring up again? 532 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 2: Will Doctor Muller had never been very interested in my past, 533 00:33:46,880 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 2: I was now quite interested in hers. Doctor Muller's obituary 534 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 2: mentions the son Bruno. He's a retired computer systems consultant. 535 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 2: He agreed to talk but didn't want to be recorded. 536 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,240 Speaker 2: When I ask about his mother's life during the war, 537 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,240 Speaker 2: he tells me all he has are snippets the past. 538 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 2: Bruno tells me didn't come up much as dinner conversation. 539 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,360 Speaker 2: Given his mother's feelings about the past, it makes sense 540 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 2: what he does know is this. She was born Enna 541 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:36,240 Speaker 2: Corolla Kumpe, and she was an athlete. She played tennis 542 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 2: competitively and was a strong enough swimmer to attempt an 543 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 2: escape during the Allied invasion by swimming across the Rhine. 544 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 2: As she swam, Bruno says, snipers from the other side 545 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,360 Speaker 2: fired at her. Bruno tells me his grandfather was a 546 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 2: doctor who was eventually captured by the Russians and sent 547 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,800 Speaker 2: to a Soviet prison camp. These camps were notoriously brutal, 548 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 2: with hundreds of thans thousands of German captives dying from violence, malnutrition, 549 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 2: or forced labor. For years, doctor Mueller didn't know whether 550 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,319 Speaker 2: her father was alive or dead. On the day of 551 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 2: an Allied bombing campaign that would devastate her hometown, doctor 552 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 2: Muller's family didn't have time to make it to the 553 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 2: local bomb shelter, which was fortunate because it was destroyed. Instead, 554 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 2: the family hid in their garden shed, which turned out 555 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 2: to be the only part of the house that survived 556 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 2: the devastation. 557 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,759 Speaker 7: The bombing wasn't supposed to hit Efheren that hard. 558 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,759 Speaker 2: Annika is a journalist who lives near Ephren, where doctor 559 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 2: Mueller grew up. 560 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 7: They were actually aiming at the harbor and Cologne, but 561 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 7: they had the order not to return with all the weapons, 562 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,239 Speaker 7: like get rid of all your bombs before you get 563 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 7: back home. Don't go around flying with all the bombs, 564 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 7: but just drop them somewhere, and so unfortunately they were 565 00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 7: dropped on Efevn. 566 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 2: I'd commissioned Danika to find out anything she could about 567 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,800 Speaker 2: the Muellers, so she'd wandered the streets of Ephrin looking 568 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 2: for traces of the family, but most of the people 569 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 2: who lived in Ephin during the war are now gone. 570 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 2: I asked if she was able to find out anything 571 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 2: about doctor Muller's father, anything that might elaborate on his 572 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 2: capture by the Russians. 573 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 7: What I did come across, and that kind of struck me, 574 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:27,640 Speaker 7: was that he was a Nazi doctors' union at the time. 575 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 7: So the doctors in this union, their job was it 576 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:36,360 Speaker 7: to tell people from a medical perspective why one race 577 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:38,879 Speaker 7: would be superior to another. 578 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 2: Race, eugenics exactly. The mission of the National Social Asterbund, 579 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 2: as the union was called, was to make sure doctors 580 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 2: were aligned with the Nazi spirit. We can't know for 581 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,319 Speaker 2: certain that doctor Muller's father wasn't forced to join, but 582 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 2: we do know that by the end of the war, 583 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 2: half of the ninety thousand doctors in Germany were not 584 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:03,319 Speaker 2: members of the Asterbunt. In other words, you didn't have 585 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 2: to be in the union to practice medicine. 586 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 7: On top of that, there's this he wasn't just a member, 587 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:17,760 Speaker 7: but he is listed as like the kreismslitter, which, okay, 588 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 7: how do I translate this? 589 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,279 Speaker 2: The rough translation is that doctor Muller's father was an 590 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:27,280 Speaker 2: upper level manager in the Nazi Physicians League. He oversaw 591 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 2: a district of two million people. While it's impossible to 592 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 2: know his private intentions and beliefs, given the prestige of 593 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,640 Speaker 2: his position, it's unlikely he was a secret hero of 594 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:43,719 Speaker 2: the resistance. A leader of his rank, let alone a 595 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,280 Speaker 2: medical leader, would at the very least have been aware 596 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 2: of the systematic sterilization and execution of those deemed undesirable, 597 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:56,120 Speaker 2: among them the so called mentally ill. No wonder, doctor 598 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,719 Speaker 2: Mueller might have felt compelled to leave the past where 599 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:10,400 Speaker 2: it was. What are your recollections of Herbert and his wife. 600 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 8: Oh good people. I'm proud to know how I'm glad 601 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 8: to be their friend. 602 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 2: Once again, I find myself speaking to a German psychiatrist 603 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 2: in Montreal. His name is doctor Gert Morgenstern, and he 604 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 2: was close to doctor Mueller and her husband Herbert, both 605 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 2: his friends and colleagues. They would gather at doctor Morgenstern's 606 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 2: home in a quiet neighborhood in Montreal, where doctor Muller's husband, Herbert, 607 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,799 Speaker 2: and he played music together, Herbert on the flute, doctor 608 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 2: Morgenstern on the piano. Doctor Mueller would wander in and 609 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 2: out listening to them play. She spent many hours in 610 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:52,279 Speaker 2: doctor Morgenstern's home. Doctor Morgenstern's son Mark explained at the 611 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,920 Speaker 2: beginning of the conversation that his father might not have 612 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,439 Speaker 2: much to offer. In recent years, his memory has begun 613 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 2: to falter and much of Morgenstern's past has become lost 614 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,360 Speaker 2: to him. But since this might be the only chance 615 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,880 Speaker 2: I get to talk to someone who actually knew doctor Mueller, 616 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 2: who can speak to her as a friend, we decide 617 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 2: to give it a try. I asked doctor Morgenstern if 618 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,480 Speaker 2: he remembers spending time with the Muellers. 619 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,919 Speaker 8: Yes, I think so. It was pleasant and he looked 620 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:21,640 Speaker 8: forward to it. 621 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 2: Mark says, as his father's memory fails, he's held on 622 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 2: to the happy memories and allowed a lot of the 623 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 2: painful ones to go. Like the Muellers, Doctor Morgenstern was 624 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,719 Speaker 2: a German who immigrated to Canada, but unlike the Muellers, 625 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,240 Speaker 2: he was a Jew. He fled Germany in nineteen thirty seven, 626 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 2: a year before Christelnacht. You both immigrated from Germany. Was 627 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:46,279 Speaker 2: that a subject that came up? 628 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:48,280 Speaker 8: I don't remember it. 629 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,319 Speaker 2: Life during the war, No, I don't remember any of that. 630 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,399 Speaker 2: So she never talked with you about what she went 631 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:56,719 Speaker 2: through during the war. 632 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,040 Speaker 8: Not that I remember. What we talked about was what 633 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:06,760 Speaker 8: we were doing and what we were planning to do. 634 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,880 Speaker 2: Doctor Morgenstern says they never talked about the past, that 635 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 2: they didn't talk about their religions, didn't even talk about psychology, 636 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:17,320 Speaker 2: and they never discussed Germany. Mark says that after fleeing, 637 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 2: his father never spoke a word of German again. So 638 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 2: if they didn't talk about the past, what did they 639 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:24,080 Speaker 2: do together? 640 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 8: Make music and talk? What did you like to talk 641 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 8: about the music we were playing. 642 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 2: Because he was a fellow therapist as well as her friend, 643 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,400 Speaker 2: I asked him what he knows about doctor Muller's practice, 644 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:44,800 Speaker 2: her approach. Throughout our conversation. Doctor Morgenstern's answers are brief, 645 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 2: a few words at most, But when I asked him 646 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,239 Speaker 2: about doctor Muller's insistence on self birth and whether it 647 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 2: was an idea that she tailored to my situation or 648 00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 2: some obscure therapeutic method, doctor Morgenstern grows animated. 649 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:06,759 Speaker 8: Oh, she wasn't doing a method. She invented what she said. 650 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 8: It's a continual process, an attitude toward life. In other words, 651 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 8: you're actively producing your future in your presence. You have 652 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 8: decisions to make, you have memories to select, and you're 653 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:36,720 Speaker 8: building your future that way. You never actually finished giving 654 00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:40,520 Speaker 8: birth to yourself. It never is a completed act. 655 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 2: While I'd taken my inability to give birth to myself 656 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 2: as a failing of either myself or of doctor Mueller, 657 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:55,400 Speaker 2: it wasn't really. Maybe doctor Mueller telling me over and 658 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,400 Speaker 2: over that birth was imminent was her way of saying, 659 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 2: there is no end point. It's just living, and that's 660 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:15,040 Speaker 2: the point. Ana Corolla Kumpel, the daughter of a doctor 661 00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,960 Speaker 2: who served a regime that treated the mentally ill as 662 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:22,320 Speaker 2: a blight upon humanity, left Germany to become Ana Corolla Mueller, 663 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,480 Speaker 2: who became not only a doctor but a psychiatrist, and 664 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,160 Speaker 2: one who tended to Jews or anyone else who needed 665 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:33,000 Speaker 2: her help. You are not your past. You are not 666 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,920 Speaker 2: your father or your family, or at least you do 667 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,759 Speaker 2: not have to be. You are the thing that you make, 668 00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:41,640 Speaker 2: which is a lesson Doctor Muller must have had to 669 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,680 Speaker 2: learn for herself before she could pass it on to others, 670 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:52,480 Speaker 2: before she could pass it on to me. Even though 671 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 2: I still don't have what doctor Muller might call a philosophy, 672 00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,319 Speaker 2: I eventually came to see that what's the use was 673 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:02,960 Speaker 2: never the right way question. The most important things in 674 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,600 Speaker 2: life have no use. And maybe this is the closest 675 00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:41,680 Speaker 2: I've come to words to live by. 676 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:52,840 Speaker 5: Now that the furnitures returning to its goodwill home, now 677 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:57,680 Speaker 5: that the last month's rent is skating with the damage 678 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:05,440 Speaker 5: to pros, take this moment. Thank you, I too. 679 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:13,800 Speaker 6: Acid. 680 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:22,680 Speaker 2: This episode of Heavyweight was produced by me Jonathan Goldstein 681 00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:25,800 Speaker 2: along with Stevie Lane b a Parker and Khalila Holt. 682 00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,960 Speaker 2: The show is edited by Jorge just Special thanks to 683 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:33,200 Speaker 2: Emily Condon, Tim Howard, Annako Vitzel, Sir Richard Evans, doctor 684 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:38,080 Speaker 2: Robert Proctor, Alex Bloomberg, Luisa Beck, Emmanuel Barry, David Berman, 685 00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:41,920 Speaker 2: and Jackie Cohen. Bobby Lord mixed the episode with original 686 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,560 Speaker 2: music by Christine Fellows, John K. Sampson, Blue Dot Sessions, 687 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:48,640 Speaker 2: and Bobby Lord. Additional music credits can be found on 688 00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:53,160 Speaker 2: our website, gimletmedia dot com slash Heavyweight. Our theme song 689 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,880 Speaker 2: is by the Weaker Bands courtesy of Epitaph Records, and 690 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,719 Speaker 2: our ad music is by Hailey Shaw. Follow us on 691 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:02,080 Speaker 2: Twitter at Heavyweight or email us at Heavyweight at gimlipmedia 692 00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:05,960 Speaker 2: dot com. You can listen for free on Spotify or 693 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:07,719 Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts.