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Speaker 1: School of Humans.

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Speaker 2: Helen Got Murder Line actively investigates cold case murders in

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Speaker 2: an effort to raise public awareness invite witnesses to come

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Speaker 2: forward and present evidence that could potentially be further investigated

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Speaker 2: by law enforcement. While we value insights from family and

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Speaker 2: community members, their statements should not be considered evidence and

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Speaker 2: point to the challenges of verifying facts inherent in cold cases.

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Speaker 2: We remind listeners that everyone has presumed innocent until proven

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Speaker 2: guilty in a court of law. Nothing in the podcast

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Speaker 2: is intended to state or imply that anyone who has

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Speaker 2: not been convicted of a crime is guilty of any wrongdoing.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.

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Speaker 3: On January twenty eighth, two thousand and one, Super Bowl Sunday,

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Speaker 3: eighteen year old Jill Lynn Utah was getting ready to

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Speaker 3: go watch the Big Game with her family. Her plan

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Speaker 3: was to go over to her mother, Joanne brown house,

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Speaker 3: where her younger sister Jenna also lived. They were planning

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Speaker 3: to eat tacos and watch the Baltimore Ravens play the

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Speaker 3: New York Giants. Jo Anne, her husband, Jill's stepfather, and

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Speaker 3: Joanne's sister Jenna lived a few miles away from where

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Speaker 3: Jill lived in her studio apartment at six hundred Saint

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Speaker 3: James Street. The cross street there was North McBride. Though

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Speaker 3: they lived separately, Jill was constantly in touch with her family.

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Speaker 3: Jenna told Dateline that for her big sister, who she

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Speaker 3: described as fiercely independent, getting her own place was a

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Speaker 3: big achievement for her. Jill loved living on her own.

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Speaker 3: Jill had dropped out of school in the ninth grade,

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Speaker 3: she got her ged and since then had worked hard

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Speaker 3: to support herself, sometimes working two jobs at a time.

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Speaker 3: Jenna told Dateline that surprisingly that day, they were not

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Speaker 3: rooting for a New York team. They wanted Baltimore to

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Speaker 3: win over the Giants, not because they were Baltimore super fans,

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Speaker 3: but more because, Jenna explained, they didn't really like any

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Speaker 3: of the New York teams. They used to live in Colorado,

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Speaker 3: so their team was the Denver Broncos. Jill didn't drive,

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Speaker 3: she rode the bus, so on that day she was

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Speaker 3: supposed to coordinate with her mother and sister to pick

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Speaker 3: her up while they were running errands that afternoon. The

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Speaker 3: plan they had decided on was that Jenna and jo

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Speaker 3: Anne were going to head to the store, then after

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Speaker 3: they got home. At some point, they were going to

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Speaker 3: pick Jill up from her Syracuse apartment. But when Jenna

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Speaker 3: and jo Anne got home from the grocery store and

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Speaker 3: called Jill, she never answered the phone. They kept trying,

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Speaker 3: the phone kept ringing, and still there was no response

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Speaker 3: from Jill. Eventually, they started cooking and got ready for

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Speaker 3: the game. The game started at six forty pm. The

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Speaker 3: halftime show came and went, and Jill never showed up

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Speaker 3: and she never called back. At first, Joanne thought something

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Speaker 3: had come up. Maybe Jill had gone to watch the

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Speaker 3: game with a friend, maybe she hadn't had time to call.

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Speaker 3: They kept watching the game. That year, the Backstreet Boys

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Speaker 3: sang the national anthem. The halftime show acts were Aerosmith

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Speaker 3: and n Sync. By Monday, joe Anne was getting more

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Speaker 3: and more concerned. She and Jenna kept calling. Jill still

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Speaker 3: didn't pick up. Back then, Joanne had a cell phone,

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Speaker 3: but there's no mention of Jill having a cell phone.

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Speaker 3: Her family was calling Jill on her landline in her apartment.

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Speaker 3: At around nine thirty am, Joanne called Jill's workplace, and

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Speaker 3: that's when Jill's boss told her Jill had not come

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Speaker 3: in that day. At that point, Joanne knew something was

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Speaker 3: very wrong. She called Jenna and went home to pick

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Speaker 3: her up. Together, they went over to Jill's apartment. When

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Speaker 3: they got to James Street, they walked up to Jill's

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Speaker 3: door on the sixth floor. Jill had a dog named Tooch,

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Speaker 3: a French bulldog, and at first her mom told The

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Speaker 3: New Times when they got to the door and knocked,

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Speaker 3: she didn't hear anything. So for a split second, she

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Speaker 3: felt a moment of relief because she explained, she didn't

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Speaker 3: hear the dog and she didn't think Jill would go

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Speaker 3: anywhere without that dog. But then they heard the dog whining,

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Speaker 3: and that's when Joanne said she and Jenna panicked. They

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Speaker 3: opened the door and went inside. Joanne went in first

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Speaker 3: and immediately picked up the dog. Then she saw Jill's

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Speaker 3: body on the floor of the living room area. Jenna

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Speaker 3: later said that her mom physically blocked her from trying

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Speaker 3: to get into the apartment after her Jenna said she

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Speaker 3: will never forget the horror she and her mom experienced

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Speaker 3: that day. At some point after she saw her daughter's body,

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Speaker 3: Joanne started screaming and couldn't stop. I'm Catherine Townsend. Over

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Speaker 3: the past eight years of making my true crime podcast,

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Speaker 3: Helen Gone, I've learned there's no such thing as a

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Speaker 3: small town where murder never happens. I have received hundreds

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Speaker 3: of messages from people all around the country asking for

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Speaker 3: help with an unsolved murder that's affected them, their families,

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Speaker 3: and their communities. If you have a case she'd like

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Speaker 3: me and my team to look into, you can reach

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Speaker 3: out to us at our Helen Gone Murder Line at

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Speaker 3: six seven eight seven four four six one four or five.

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Speaker 3: That's six seven eight seven four four six one four five,

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Speaker 3: or you can send us a message on Instagram at

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Speaker 3: Helen Gonepod. This is Helen Gone Murder Line. After Joanne

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Speaker 3: found her daughter's body, Jenna ran around the apartment complex

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Speaker 3: and started banging on doors to get help, and then Joanne,

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Speaker 3: who had a cell phone, called nine one one. Syracuse

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Speaker 3: police showed up and began to examine the crime saint.

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Speaker 3: They found Jill in the living room with multiple stab wounds.

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Speaker 3: Her neck had also been slashed. Mary Jumblick, who was

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Speaker 3: the chief medical examiner of Onendeka County, later described the

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Speaker 3: stab wounds to Dateline. She said, quote, as I recall

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Speaker 3: them in the neck in the chest in the back

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Speaker 3: of her body end quote. Police were able to find

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Speaker 3: a murder weapon, one of Jill's own kitchen knives. In

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Speaker 3: the news footage from WSYR Syracuse that was filmed the

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Speaker 3: day Jill was murdered, you can see Joe Anne being

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Speaker 3: led out onto the street. Jill's French bulldog, Hooch, is

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Speaker 3: with her, wearing a little pink collar. There was no

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Speaker 3: sign of forced entry, and no locks were broken, and

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Speaker 3: nothing appeared to be missing from the apartment, suggesting that

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Speaker 3: robbery was not the killer's motive. That, plus the fact

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Speaker 3: that the knife came from Jill's kitchen, would seem to

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Speaker 3: suggest that her killer was someone she knew and let

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Speaker 3: him voluntarily, and that the murder was unplanned. Or maybe

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Speaker 3: she surprised someone by being in the apartment, maybe someone

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Speaker 3: who was planning to break in and rob her, but

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Speaker 3: that seemed much more unlikely given her plans that day.

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Speaker 3: Jill was home. She was planning to have her mom

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Speaker 3: and or her sister pick her up to watch the game.

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Speaker 3: Neither law enforcement nor her family have ever stated whether

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Speaker 3: or not Jill was sexually assaulted, so we have to

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Speaker 3: pick through the clues in statements from law enforcement and

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Speaker 3: from old news reports to try to see if there

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Speaker 3: was something or someone who police missed. Jill Lynn Utah

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Speaker 3: was born on March twentieth, nineteen eighty two, in Houston, Texas.

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Speaker 3: She had two sisters, Jenna and an older sister named Carrie.

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Speaker 3: Her mom described Jenna and Jill in interviews as best friends.

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Speaker 3: They were very close, according to her obituary. Jill's father

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Speaker 3: lived in a town in upstate New York, but Joanne

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Speaker 3: has stated he was not involved in Jill's life. Anne

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Speaker 3: did not attend her funeral. For a few years. When

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Speaker 3: the girls were young, Joanne, Jill, and Jenna lived in

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Speaker 3: Colorado's Springs, Colorado, but jo Anne told The New Times

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Speaker 3: back in two thousand and one that she started to

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Speaker 3: get concerned about safety at their schools, where she said

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Speaker 3: they had metal detectors. She was also bothered by what

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Speaker 3: she called the pro gun culture, so they came back

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Speaker 3: to the area where they were originally from Syracuse, New York.

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Speaker 3: By the time they moved back, Carrie was out of

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Speaker 3: school and living nearby with her husband. Joanne had homeschooled

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Speaker 3: the girls in Colorado, so after they moved back to

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Speaker 3: New York. Joanne told the newspaper her daughters discovered that

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Speaker 3: if they re enrolled in the school system back in

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Speaker 3: New York when they were in high school, they would

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Speaker 3: actually be held back for two years, so they decided

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Speaker 3: not to stay in school. Instead, they got their GEDs.

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Speaker 3: This suited Jill, who Jenna and joe Anne both described

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Speaker 3: as very independent. Jill immediately started looking for a job.

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Speaker 3: She was soon working at Carousel Center and then at

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Speaker 3: the shoppingtown Mall. Joanne said Jill wanted to become a

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Speaker 3: paramedic and her big dream was to eventually become a

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Speaker 3: pediatric nurse. So Jill was eighteen years old, working at

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Speaker 3: the mall and living in her own studio. But fight

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Speaker 3: this independence, she stayed very close to her family. Police

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Speaker 3: were processing the crime scene and trying to figure out

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Speaker 3: who could have done this to Jill. They knew Jill

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Speaker 3: had been stabbed multiple times and that the murder weapon

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Speaker 3: came from inside her house. It was a knife from

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Speaker 3: Jill's kitchen. Police found the knife at the crime scene,

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Speaker 3: but according to media reports, they were not able to

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Speaker 3: pull a DNA profile from that weapon, and unfortunately, police

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Speaker 3: said there wasn't much physical evidence. According to media reports,

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Speaker 3: police found no usable DNA at all. They talked to

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Speaker 3: Jill's neighbors, but no one said they saw or heard

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Speaker 3: anything unusual. No one saw anyone going into that apartment,

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Speaker 3: either with or without Jill, but the fact that it

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Speaker 3: was Super Bowl Sunday presented its own challenges. Police stated

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Speaker 3: Jill was killed the day before her body was found. Later,

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Speaker 3: it was reported that Jill was killed between around noon

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Speaker 3: and three pm on Sunday, January twenty eighth. Mary Jumblick,

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Speaker 3: the chief medical examiner who spoke to Dateline, stated she

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Speaker 3: believed Jill had known her killer, saying, quote, stabbing is

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Speaker 3: a very intimate form of death, but she added that

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Speaker 3: the evidence, in her opinion, also pointed to an acquaintance

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Speaker 3: of Jill's being the killer. She said that was due

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Speaker 3: to the fact there was no forced entry. Jill's family

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Speaker 3: last heard from her at eleven am, and at the

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Speaker 3: time there was nothing to suggest that she was in distress.

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Speaker 3: What could have happened after they hung up the phone.

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Speaker 3: From the beginning, police seemed to focus on the theory

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Speaker 3: that Jill knew her attacker. Again, this makes sense given

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Speaker 3: the lack of forest entry and the fact that the

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Speaker 3: knife came from the kitchen. In the beginning, there was

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Speaker 3: a flurry of activity. They went to Jill's apartment complex

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Speaker 3: and interviewed a lot of people, but apparently no one

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Speaker 3: had heard anything alarming. However, Jill's murder happened on Super

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Speaker 3: Bowl Sunday, which is a day when loud screaming would

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Speaker 3: not have seemed out of place. Captain Richard Walsh of

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Speaker 3: the Syracuse Police Department's Criminal Investigation Division told The Post

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Speaker 3: Standard a year after Jill's murder in two thousand and

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Speaker 3: two that it was a very tough case. They had

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Speaker 3: no eyewitnesses, no one saw or heard anything weird that day,

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Speaker 3: and Jill's body was not found for twenty four hours. Eventually,

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Speaker 3: the case file turned into one of the biggest cold

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Speaker 3: case files in the Syracuse area. But Jill's family also

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Speaker 3: wondered if there could be other possibilities that Jill's killer

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Speaker 3: was someone she didn't know, maybe a neighbor or a handyman,

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Speaker 3: or someone with a key or access to her apartment,

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Speaker 3: or someone who had been let into the building by

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Speaker 3: someone else and ambushed at her door. If Jill didn't

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Speaker 3: know her killer, her family wondered how would the killer

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Speaker 3: have gained access to the apartment buildings and ended up

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Speaker 3: at Jill's door, which led them to take a closer

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Speaker 3: look at the apartment complex where Jill lived, and what

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Speaker 3: they found, according to them, was shocking. They believed that

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Speaker 3: the apartment complex security system was seriously inadequate. According to

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Speaker 3: the Syracuse Herald Journal, the James apartments had an intercom system,

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Speaker 3: so to give people access to the apartment complex, residents

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Speaker 3: would have to buzz them in. But Jill's mom told

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Speaker 3: the newspaper the building security was a joke, saying, quote,

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Speaker 3: anybody could get into that building end quote. It seemed

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Speaker 3: that Joanne now believed Jill had not known her attacker,

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Speaker 3: at least according to what she said in this newspaper interview.

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Speaker 3: Joanne said, quote, she must have been caught off guard.

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Speaker 3: She wouldn't hurt a fly. She always was well liked,

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Speaker 3: She helped older people and love kids. She didn't want

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Speaker 3: anything more than to be married and have kids.

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Speaker 1: End quote.

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Speaker 3: Jill had loved her studio apartment on the sixth floor

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Speaker 3: of the James, but pretty soon her family was asking

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Speaker 3: a lot of questions about that apartment complex. They sued

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Speaker 3: the building owners of the apartment that Jill leased. They

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Speaker 3: sued HKS Realty Associates Incorporated and the apartment management company

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Speaker 3: James Properties Incorporated. Jill's family alleged that these companies had

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Speaker 3: caused the wrongful death of Jill and the quote conscious

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Speaker 3: pain and suffering of Jill end quote. In the lawsuit,

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Speaker 3: they stated Jill was murdered in the apartment and that

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Speaker 3: the murder investigation remained open and unsolved. It's interesting because

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Speaker 3: this lawsuit got me thinking about court cases where people

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Speaker 3: are murdered inside apartments, especially where women are living alone,

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Speaker 3: because obviously that's something we have a lot of and

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Speaker 3: hear about a lot on this podcast. What are the

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Speaker 3: legal responsibilities of the apartment complex in a case like this?

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Speaker 3: The New York courts ruled that quote, landlords have a

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Speaker 3: common law duty to take minimal precautions to protect tenants

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Speaker 3: from foreseeable.

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Speaker 1: Harm end quote.

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Speaker 3: And the court's ruled this does include what they call

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Speaker 3: a third party's foreseeable criminal conduct, which means apartment buildings

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Speaker 3: can be held liable for tenants safety. But, and this

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Speaker 3: part is crucial, they have to establish a causal link

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Speaker 3: between the landlord's failure to provide that security and the

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Speaker 3: tenant's injuries resulting from a criminal attack in a building.

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Speaker 3: The court ruled that in this case that could only

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Speaker 3: be proven if the killer had gained access through a

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Speaker 3: negligently maintained entrance. In this case, the building owner and

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Speaker 3: management company. The defendants were able to establish there was

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Speaker 3: no provable history of Buell crime by third parties in

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Speaker 3: the building, and the plainists failed to prove whether the

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Speaker 3: defendants knew or had reason to know from past experience

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Speaker 3: that there was a likelihood of violent conduct on a

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Speaker 3: part of third persons in the building. Now before and

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Speaker 3: after Jill's murder, there are a lot of online comments

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Speaker 3: in different forums talking about how that apartment complex was unsafe.

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Speaker 3: Residents said that they felt unsafe, and according to court documents,

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Speaker 3: Joanne and her attorney were able to provide evidence of

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Speaker 3: violent crime in proximity to the building, but they failed

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Speaker 3: to prove whether this ambient crime had quote demonstrably infiltrated

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Speaker 3: the premises end quote, so they were able to prove

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Speaker 3: there was violent crime around the building, but not necessarily

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Speaker 3: that it was in the building, and the owners and

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00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,560
Speaker 3: building management of the James were able to prove in

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Speaker 3: court that they did have security. They said the doors

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Speaker 3: into the building had automatic locks and that the key

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Speaker 3: fobs were only given to tenants. They also said there

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Speaker 3: was an intercom system visitors could be buzzed in, and

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Speaker 3: that the apartment doors were secured by a lock with

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Speaker 3: a dead bolt. It locked automatically unless a tenant left

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Speaker 3: it unlocked. Each door also had peep holes so tenants

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Speaker 3: could look out and identify the person who was knocking

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Speaker 3: on the door. This case made it all the way

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Speaker 3: to the New York Supreme Court, but in the end,

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Speaker 3: the court found that Jill's mother and her attorneys had

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Speaker 3: failed to prove whether her killer had gained access to

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Speaker 3: the premises through a negligently maintained entrance, so they lost

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Speaker 3: their case. The claim was dismissed. The last time that

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Speaker 3: Jill's family talked to her was on game day in

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Speaker 3: the morning, so could the final conversation that Jill had

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Speaker 3: with her family provide any clues. Jenna said her sister

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Speaker 3: called at around eleven am, and that when Jill called,

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Speaker 3: she said she wanted to talk to their mother, But

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Speaker 3: Jenna said at that point she and Joe Anne were

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Speaker 3: in a rush. They were planning to head to the

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Speaker 3: grocery store before they picked Jill up to grab ingredients

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Speaker 3: for their meal. That day, they were making tacos, which

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Speaker 3: Jenna said was Jill's favorite. Jenna told Dateline, quote, it's

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Speaker 3: one of my biggest regrets. I just wish I would

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Speaker 3: have let her talk to my mom end quote. After that,

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Speaker 3: Jenna and Joanne both called back several times, but they

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Speaker 3: were never able to find out what it was that

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Speaker 3: Jill wanted that morning. Was it something but now or

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Speaker 3: could Jill have already been dealing with a situation at home.

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Speaker 3: Thinking about that phone call still troubles Jenna. She told

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Speaker 3: Dateline that she was annoyed with her sister at first,

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Speaker 3: which she now hates to admit. She thought maybe her

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00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,440
Speaker 3: sister had blown them off and made other plans. It

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Speaker 3: never occurred to her at the time to be scared.

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Speaker 3: This was in the middle of the day on a Sunday. Later,

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Speaker 3: of course, she said that really bothered her that she

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Speaker 3: had ever felt annoyed even for a second, but it's

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Speaker 3: a totally human reaction. The lawsuit against the managers of

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Speaker 3: the James Apartments was dismissed in two thousand and six.

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Speaker 3: In the years since then, the few statements that police

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00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,520
Speaker 3: have made publicly seemed to indicate that they are once

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Speaker 3: again focusing on someone Jill knew. One of the police officers,

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Speaker 3: Christopher to Joseph, told news Channel nine WSYR Syracuse in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty one that he believed Jill knew her killer

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Speaker 3: and had invited the killer into her home. Jill was

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Speaker 3: a young woman, so I'm sure the police asked her

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Speaker 3: family if she was seeing anyone at the time of

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Speaker 3: her death. We don't know whether or not Jill was

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Speaker 3: dating anyone at that time, but there is an interesting

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Speaker 3: tidbit in one of the old newspaper articles about Jill's

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Speaker 3: candlelight vigil that her family held a few weeks after

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Speaker 3: her murder. The Syracuse Harold Journal wrote about the case

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Speaker 3: in March of two thousand and one. They covered the

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Speaker 3: memorial vigil that Jill's friends and family had on what

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Speaker 3: would have been Jill's nineteenth birthday. They walked from a

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Speaker 3: nearby church the apartment building where Jill had been murdered.

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Speaker 3: They were holding candles in Jill's favorite color pick. A

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Speaker 3: reporter from the Harold Journal talked to some people at

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Speaker 3: the vigil. One of the people they interviewed was a

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Speaker 3: twenty one year old guy named Mike Stanton. He said

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Speaker 3: he had dated Jill, and he said they had broken

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Speaker 3: up a week before she was murdered. Mike told the

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Speaker 3: newspaper quote, the first time I saw her, I thought

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Speaker 3: she'd never be interested in me. I can't stop thinking

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Speaker 3: that if we hadn't broken up, I probably could have

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Speaker 3: been there to help. I could have done something end quote.

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Speaker 3: I wonder if the police talked to him or to

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Speaker 3: Jill's other friends, but we don't know. We also don't

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Speaker 3: know what, if any phone activity Jill had on Sunday.

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Speaker 3: Police haven't released that information, and Jill's family has not

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Speaker 3: commented on it publicly. Another cold case, one that took

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Speaker 3: place almost exactly one year after Jill's murder in January

335
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Speaker 3: of two thousand and two, was solved after over two decades.

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Speaker 3: Thirty nine year old Catherine Scott was murdered in Utica,

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00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,120
Speaker 3: about fifty miles away from Syracuse. She was strangled and

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00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 3: left wrapped in plastic under a mattress. The police stated

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00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:13,160
Speaker 3: that in this case that one person's name, Jarvis jbo

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Speaker 3: Simpson had come up early in the investigation, but they

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Speaker 3: were unable to make a case against him because they

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00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 3: had no witnesses and no definitive confession. This name was

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Speaker 3: never released publicly, but law enforcement had him on their

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Speaker 3: list for years, and it wasn't until after his death

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00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty four that investigators reinterviewed key individuals. They

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Speaker 3: developed information in some leads that led them to believe

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Speaker 3: that Jarvis Simpson was definitely responsible and to close the case.

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Speaker 3: Could Jill's case be on a similar trajectory. Detective Chris

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Speaker 3: to Joseph of the Syracuse Police Department called Case Squad said, quote,

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Speaker 3: in the past few years, there have been some people

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Speaker 3: we've looked at in a different capacity, some names that

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00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:11,920
Speaker 3: have come up that were known to the case, and

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Speaker 3: we're keeping an eye on those. There have been numerous

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Speaker 3: persons of interest who were considered suspects, but for various reasons,

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Speaker 3: it did not lead us down that path to an arrest.

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Speaker 1: End quote.

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Speaker 3: Jenna said. Police have made statements to her indicating that

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Speaker 3: they were hoping a relative of their suspects would upload

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Speaker 3: their DNA to a family DNA site. Presumably this would

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Speaker 3: have allowed law enforcement to do a familial DNA search.

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Speaker 3: Now I'm confused about this because police had stated there

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Speaker 3: was no usable DNA. Maybe there are traces, but they

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00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 3: just didn't have enough to test with the previous technology. However,

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Speaker 3: if they're hoping to do a familial DNA SARCH now

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Speaker 3: with the recent change in law, they may be waiting

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Speaker 3: a long time. Between twenty twenty and twenty twenty five,

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00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 3: there have been a lot of shifts toward greater privacy

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Speaker 3: in these genealogy databases. In August of twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 3: Ancestry updated their terms of service to explicitly ban use

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Speaker 3: of their services for law enforcement investigations, court proceedings, and

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Speaker 3: forensic genealogy. This was a huge setback for law enforcement,

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00:24:22,120 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 3: and ged match has also changed their policies. Now they

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Speaker 3: require people to opt in to consent to their data

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Speaker 3: being used by law enforcement. Over the years, Joanne did

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Speaker 3: a ton of outreach on Jill's case. She became an

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Speaker 3: outspoken advocate for her daughter. She made her life's mission

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00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 3: to bring justice in Jill's case. Joanne held vigils, she

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00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:51,920
Speaker 3: posted flowers all over town. She covered her house in

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00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,120
Speaker 3: pink ribbons. She also teamed up with a local company.

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Speaker 3: They donated billboards, and in August of two thousand and one,

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00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 3: Joanne posted billboards in town that read murdered Super Bowl

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Speaker 3: Sunday with a giant photo of Jill. Jo Anne also

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00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 3: went on talk shows like Montelle and Sally Jesse Raphael.

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Speaker 3: She gave interviews to Unsolved Mysteries and America's Most wanted

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Speaker 3: I don't know how many of you remember this. Younger

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00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 3: listeners may not, but I grew up watching Montel and

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00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 3: I remember for years he had a psychic named Sylvia

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Speaker 3: Brown on the show. She would go on there and

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Speaker 3: tell parents, including jo Anne, her predictions about their loved

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Speaker 3: one's fates, and it was later revealed Sylvia Brown got

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00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 3: none of her predictions right, but she was responsible for

392
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 3: preying on the misery of many families. She famously told

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Speaker 3: Amanda Barry's mother in two thousand and four that her dog,

394
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 3: who had been kidnapped, was dead, saying bluntly, she's not alive, honey.

395
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Speaker 3: Amanda Barry was still alive and was found being held

396
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Speaker 3: captive in a house in twenty thirteen. Amanda later revealed

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Speaker 3: she actually saw that show and it had devastated her

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00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 3: at the time. Because she believed that what Sylvia Brown

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00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 3: saying that to her mother meant that her mother would

400
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 3: stop looking for her. She told one family their daughter

401
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 3: had been sold into sex slavery in Japan, and another

402
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 3: one that their loved one was working as an exotic

403
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 3: dancer in Hollywood. It was later revealed both young women

404
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 3: had been murdered shortly after they disappeared, and they were

405
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:29,360
Speaker 3: both dead when Sylvia Brown made these predictions. Sylvia was

406
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 3: actually charged, along with her husband at the time, with

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Speaker 3: securities fraud and grand theft in nineteen ninety two. She

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00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 3: pleaded no contest. She ended up being convicted of grand

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Speaker 3: larceny and getting probation. Still, even after all that, for years,

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Speaker 3: Sylvia had a huge following, it just goes to show

411
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Speaker 3: the links that parents like Joanne went to to try

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Speaker 3: to do anything that they could to get answers. Jo

413
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 3: Anne ended up quitting work and going on disability because,

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Speaker 3: according to what her daughter said in interviews, she was

415
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 3: unable to function at anything other than searching for her

416
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 3: daughter's killer. Joanne told reporters she spoke with detectives almost daily,

417
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Speaker 3: sometimes multiple times per day. She devoted her entire existence

418
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Speaker 3: to figuring out who killed Jill. Joanne said, quote, I

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00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 3: promised her I won't stop until her killer is found.

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Speaker 3: I'll be putting those posters out until I die.

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Speaker 1: End quote.

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately, in two thousand and seven, Joanne was working as

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Speaker 3: a landscaper to help pay bills. She was doing some

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Speaker 3: landscaping at a car repair shop. She was on the

425
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 3: roof when witnesses said she was unrolling some sheathing and

426
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 3: walking backwards and fell. She only fell around fieve teen feet,

427
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 3: but she landed on the back of her head. Joe

428
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 3: Anne was taken to the hospital, but she later died

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00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 3: from her injuries. After that fatal fall, Jenna had lost

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00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 3: her mom and her sister in six years, and after

431
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 3: that she became the main advocate for Jill. But Jenna

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00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 3: told Dateline that, in her opinion, her mom had really

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Speaker 3: died the day that Jill did. She said, quote what

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00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 3: she saw killed her like. She couldn't function really after

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00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 3: her whole life revolved around Jill and getting justice end quote.

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00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 3: In the years since Joanne's death, Jenna has been the

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00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,360
Speaker 3: one doing most of the media outreach in connection with

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00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:35,360
Speaker 3: her sister's death. She told Dateline she still thinks about

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00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 3: the message that she left Jill on the day she died,

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00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 3: the one where she was still feeling a little annoyed

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00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 3: about Jill not showing up for the game that day.

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00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 3: Jenna told Dateline quote, I pray to God like she

443
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 3: didn't hear, you know, like yelling at her, you know,

444
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 3: to be like, where are you? Why aren't you picking

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00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 3: up the phone that haunts me?

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00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 1: End quote.

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00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 3: Jenna has said she does not truly believe that at

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00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 3: this point her sister's killer will ever be found, but

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00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 3: she does sometimes hope something will happen that would make

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00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 3: the killer or killers, or someone close to them come forward.

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00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 3: Enough time has passed that if they're alive, maybe their

452
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 3: life is changed. They may have children Jill's age now,

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00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 3: they may feel differently about what they did or saw

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00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 3: that day. Jenna says she believes if her sister were alive,

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00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 3: that Jill would be a mom, because that was something

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00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 3: that Jill really wanted. One of the biggest questions we

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00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 3: keep circling back to is did Jill know her attacker,

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00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 3: because if that's the case, someone in her friend group

459
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 3: may have information they don't even realize as important. Was

460
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 3: there someone close to her who the police could have

461
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 3: missed her mom, Joanne, seemed to change her mind about

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00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 3: this several times as the years went on. First she

463
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 3: thought it was someone Jill knew, then seemed to shift

464
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 3: her attention to the apartment complex, letting someone shady in

465
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 3: who randomly targeted Jill. But by twenty sixteen, Jill's uncle,

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00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 3: Steve seemed to allude to the fact he believed someone

467
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 3: in Jill's friend group had killed her. He told the

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00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 3: Post Standard he believed Jill trusted people too easily and

469
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 3: that her killer quote took advantage of her trusting nature

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00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 3: end quote. But the bottom line is still no one

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00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 3: knows for sure. This year twenty twenty six marks twenty

472
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 3: five years since Jill was brutally murdered, and police still

473
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 3: have no suspect and it made no arrests. Police have

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00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 3: said they were not able to get a DNA profile

475
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 3: off the kitchen knife, the murder weapon, but he is

476
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 3: there more testing that could be done, maybe with more

477
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 3: sensitive methods that are available in twenty twenty six versus

478
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 3: the testing they did in two thousand and one, though

479
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 3: Jill's family has indicated they hope DNA may provide answers

480
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 3: detected to Joseph has said he believes the key to

481
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 3: cracking this case would not be physical evidence, but quote

482
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 3: intimate knowledge of what happened that day end quote. He said,

483
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 3: quote Jill knew who her attacker was, she allowed him

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00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 3: into her home, and things went horribly wrong.

485
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: End quote.

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00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 3: Jenna has stated the same thing, saying, quote, I do

487
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 3: believe that Jill knew her killer. I believe she knew

488
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 3: her killer extremely well.

489
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 1: End quote.

490
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 3: Every year around this time, around Super Bowl time, there's

491
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 3: an update about this case. In twenty sixteen, the Syracuse

492
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 3: Police Department held a press conference. Jenna and law enforcement

493
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 3: have asked the public to think back to Super Bowl

494
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 3: so on day two thousand and one and try to

495
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 3: remember if they saw anything out of the ordinary. Syracuse

496
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 3: has one hundred cold cases and only two detectives on

497
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 3: the cold case squad, so they have a very hard

498
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 3: job and I have a lot of empathy for them,

499
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 3: and this is still an open case. They are going

500
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 3: to need someone to come forward in order to solve it.

501
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 3: Syracuse Police are still interested in hearing from anyone with information,

502
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 3: including anyone who lived in the building at six hundred

503
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 3: James Street when Jill lived there. They can be reached

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00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 3: at three one five, four four two five two two two.

505
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 3: I'm Catherine Townsend. This is Helen Gone Murder Line. Helen

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00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 3: Gone Murder Line is a production of School of Humans

507
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 3: and iHeart Podcasts. It's written and narrated by me Catherine

508
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 3: Townsend and produced by Etie's Perez Special thanks to Amy

509
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 3: Tubbs for a research assistance and James Wheaton for legal review.

510
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 3: Noah Camera mixed and scored this episode. Our theme song

511
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 3: is by Ben Sale, Executive producers of Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr,

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00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 3: and LC Crowley. Listen to Helen Gone ad free by

513
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 3: subscribing to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel on Apple Podcasts.

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00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 3: If you are interested in seeing documents and materials from

515
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 3: the case, you can follow the show on Instagram at

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00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 3: Helen gonpod. If you have a case you'd like me

517
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 3: and my team to look into, you can reach out

518
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 3: to us at our Helen Gone Murder Line at six

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00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 3: seven eight seven four four six one four five. That's

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00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 3: six seven eight seven four four six one four five.

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Speaker 2: School of Humans