1 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World, I thought it would 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: be great to do an entire podcast on Russia's fascination 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: with poison as a weapon. Russia is one of the 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: few countries in the world that assassinates their opponents by poison. 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: I thought we'd explore the most nefarious and ruthless Russian 6 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: murder plots. I'm pleased to welcome my guests, Amy Knight, 7 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: author of Orders to Kill the Putin Regime and Political Murder. 8 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: Amy Knight has done remarkable research and wrote Orders to 9 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,599 Speaker 1: Kill the Putin Regime and Political Murder, which I think 10 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: puts in context why we think that the Russians have 11 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: this tendency towards killing people and in particular using poison. 12 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: But Amy, first of all, would you just tell us 13 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: your background. Why did you side to investigate this area. Well, 14 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: I've been a Russia watcher for a long time. I 15 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 1: actually used to teach at the college level. I worked 16 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: for eighteen years at the US Library of Congress as 17 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: a Soviet flash Russian affairs analyst. This will be my 18 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: sixth book. I've always followed everything that's been going on 19 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: in the Kremlin and in Russia, and I also, of 20 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: course have been most drawn to the Democratic opposition movement. 21 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: And that first murder that I talked about in my 22 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:37,680 Speaker 1: book of Galina Staravotova, who is a parliamentarian in Russia. 23 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:42,639 Speaker 1: She was shot in her apartment entrance in nineteen ninety 24 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: eight and I had met Galina and she was with 25 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: the US Institute of Peace for a year in Washington, 26 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: and I really admired her so much, and it just 27 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: struck me that there was something going on that people 28 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: weren't is aware of. And at that point, Vladimur Putin 29 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: was the head of the FSB and very closely connected 30 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 1: with Saint Petersburg, and I didn't particularly attribute it to Putin, 31 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: but it was a very strange murder and it never 32 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: really has been solved properly. So that got you intrigued 33 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: with the way in which the Russians police themselves. Yes, 34 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: I have always had a specialty in the security services. 35 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: I had written a book on the KGB, and I 36 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: was always following what these officials were doing. And then that, 37 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: combined with my interest in Russian critics, journalists, and politicians, 38 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: led me to follow every time there was a murderer. 39 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 1: I was wondering what happened and of course the Russian 40 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: independent media has always been very good since the Soviet collapsed, 41 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: so that, combined with interviews, enabled me to kind of 42 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: follow these different cases. Just as an aside, I noticed 43 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: that one of the books you wrote was on Maria 44 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: Stalin's head of the KGB, who is himself sort of 45 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: a remarkable case study in brutality. Yes, he is, very much, 46 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: So I should mention that I also with a historian 47 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,959 Speaker 1: of the Stalin period, and it just struck me that 48 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: no one had ever really investigated the history of Laventi Barria, 49 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,959 Speaker 1: who was Stalin's henchman kind of from the get go, 50 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: and who was a key administrator of the famous purges 51 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: in the thirties. So I decided I would write a 52 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: biography of him. And this, I should add, was prompted 53 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: by the fact that Soviet archives opened up in the 54 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: nineties for a while and one could really find out 55 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: a great deal about Barrier and Stalin. And I also 56 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: went to Georgia to Tablizi and worked there to the 57 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: little research there. So yeah, that was my first book, 58 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: and I think that just continued my interest in the 59 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: security services and the more sinister aspect of how Russia 60 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: is ruled. Picking Baria is a starting point. It must 61 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: have been a very eye opening at times to be 62 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: in the archives and realize in a mundane way how 63 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 1: routine this was, that this was just the way they 64 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 1: did things. Yes, you're absolutely right, it did become a routine. 65 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 1: But towards the end of Stalin's life, Barria and Molotov 66 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: and Malankov and khrushchoff In particularly appreciate Stalin's bloodthirstiness and 67 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: they were actually, I think quite pleased when he died. 68 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: And what followed was a sort of Soviet version of 69 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: the liberalization. And they stopped the killings. They settled their 70 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: scores in different ways, but as I remember, part of 71 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: the way they stopped the killings as they killed Barria exactly. Yeah, 72 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: sort of getting rid of the second of the great murderers. 73 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 1: By the way, have you seen the day Stalin died? Yes, 74 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: of course, or is it the Death of Stalin the 75 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: Death of Stalin the British film. Yes, it's excellent and 76 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: I would say quite historically accurate. I love the fact 77 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: that it was able to make it almost humorous. Not 78 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: everybody caught it, but I laughed. I'm not watched anythink 79 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: three times, because I thought it was done brilliantly to 80 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 1: communicate a level of horror which was more horrifying for 81 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: being funny exactly. I think have they done it purely straight, 82 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: it would have been deadening. But by doing it the 83 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: way they did, you really got a sense of just 84 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 1: how terrifying the regime was, exactly. And I should add, 85 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: by the way, that although you know, Barrier is always 86 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 1: sort of the poster person for all of Stalin's terror 87 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 1: and violence, all of these men contributed to it and 88 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: went along with it until they worried that it was 89 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 1: going to hit them. You know, it's fascinating to realize 90 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: that in the twenties and thirties, Mauzi Dung and Dung 91 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: Choupeng and others studied Stalin and Lenin as role models, 92 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: and in fact, Stalin's Brief History of the Bolshevik Revolution 93 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: was a major work that both Dung Choupeng and Mauzi 94 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: Dung relied on. And it's a work which teaches the 95 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: virtue of purses that if you maintain constant turmoil in 96 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 1: the party by every few years having a purge, And 97 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: I think it's part of what explains what happened with 98 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: Mao in the fifties and sixties that in a way 99 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: he was almost going off the rails the way Stalin 100 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 1: had after World War Two, right exactly. This was timed 101 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: and true method for keeping the population in subjugation. It's 102 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:53,840 Speaker 1: striking how often the Russians, both the Soviets and now 103 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 1: the current regime are willing to be a little sloppy 104 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: and open and who they're killing. I think because they 105 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: to send a signal. I think that they actually think 106 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: is to their advantage to have you know what they 107 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,720 Speaker 1: are doing. But what's your take on that? I'm in 108 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: agreement with you. I have just been writing a PostScript 109 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: to my latest book because it's coming out in paperback 110 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: in Britain, and I'm including a PostScript about the Scripal 111 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: poisonings in the UK in March of twenty and eighteen. 112 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: And we now know that they were gru officers who 113 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: actually put the poison novichuk, which is a nerve agent, 114 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: on the doorknob of Sergei Scripal. They were sloppy. They 115 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: allowed themselves to be photographed on the CTV, recorded on 116 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: the cameras walking around the streets of Salisbury where scripa 117 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: lived and they left a perfume type bottle with the 118 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: rest of the novichuck in a trash can, which was 119 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: later picked up by two innocent people, two Brits. Their 120 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: true names were eventually uncovered, and so we now pretty 121 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: much have a smoking gun that the Kremlin was directly 122 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: involved with this. And I don't think the Kremlin particularly 123 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: cares because people have talked about what would be the 124 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: motive of mister Putin to have such a crime carried 125 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: out in the UK. Surely he knew that it was 126 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: going to cause a huge shockwave in the West and 127 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: sanctions and diplomats being kicked out. But Putin is not 128 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: as maybe as rational as we assume he is, and 129 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: I think he and his colleagues really wanted to send 130 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: a message to would be defectors that this could happen 131 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: to them if they turned to the West. And also 132 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: I think it reinforces for Putin this image of him 133 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: being a strong man who can stand up to the West, 134 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: and you know, the Russian public. When Lizinenko was poisoned 135 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: in Written Into two thousand and six, again the killers 136 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: were found, they got themselves back to Russia. They weren't extradited, 137 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: and they did polls of what the Russian people thought 138 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: about this murder, and most of them felt that Lipinenko 139 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: deserved it. I haven't seen any polls about Scrupal, but 140 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,959 Speaker 1: I think putin was playing to an audience, and so 141 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: I don't think it really matters all that much to 142 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: the Kremlin whether or not we know that they were 143 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: the ones that orchestrated these recent poisonings in Britain. So 144 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: you mentioned that these were two GRU agents, which, if 145 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: I remember correctly, is the military intelligence Unit right, it's 146 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: the military intelligence branch of the Ministry of Defense. And 147 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: it's very interesting because in earlier days it was always 148 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: the KGB and the KGB's successors, now we have the FSB, 149 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: the Federal Security Service. They were the ones, along with 150 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: a foreign intelligence and see that would do these things abroad. 151 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: And it wasn't that the GRU also didn't do bad things, 152 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: but it was more under the purview of foreign intelligence 153 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: in the FSB. And now it seems like the GRU 154 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 1: is carrying out more of these acts of violence, and also, 155 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: as we know now, the election interference, because it was 156 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: the GRU that was responsible for a lot of the 157 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: hacking of our presidential election. One of the things I'm 158 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: always struck with when people try to understand Putin, and 159 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: this is the one comment you made earlier about whether 160 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 1: or not he was rational. Isn't it likely that he 161 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: is rational within the framework of a Old War trained 162 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: KGB officer who rose to a pretty decent rank and 163 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: would have regarded levels of violence and brutality that we'd 164 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: be horrified by. Is this kind of volunt to day's work. 165 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: I mean, how do you explain the impact of having 166 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: been a KGB officer and now being president of Russia. Oh, 167 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: it's huge, because the outlook of the KGB that the 168 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 1: West was an enemy and anything that happened even within 169 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 1: the country, like the dissident movement and so forth, Rather 170 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 1: than looking inward at the causes that might be responsible 171 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: for some of the descent, it was always blamed on 172 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: the West. And another part of this sort of KGB 173 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: philosophy which has continued on today with Putin and his 174 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: associates who are also from the security services, it's this 175 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: idea that the West is an enemy and also that 176 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: in order to buttress your regime you have to be 177 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: threatening militarily. In other words, there's always this kind of 178 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: impetus that they have to do something to reassert Russia's 179 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: predominance abroad, and of course, particularly given that with the 180 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: collapse of the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc, they 181 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: lost a lot of their territory. So there is this 182 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 1: almost instinctive need to be forceful and uncompromising, and Putin 183 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: is inherited this mindset and he continues along with Most 184 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: of his ruling clique are former or current security officials, 185 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: So in a sense, their very weakness leads them to 186 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: project a kind of brutal toughness because they think if 187 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: they can't keep us off balance and frightened, that our 188 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:55,959 Speaker 1: relative advantages would be overwhelming. Exactly, instead of welcoming Western investment, 189 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: for example, and treating Western businessmen in Russia, it's their 190 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: instinct that Western businessmen who don't want to get involved 191 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: in Russian politics and who are very complimentary to Putin, 192 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: even these people are to be distrusted. I'm hoping that 193 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: I'm not generalizing too much, but i would say that 194 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: in a sense, they do sort of shoot themselves in 195 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: the foot, because what's happening now in Russia is there's 196 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 1: a lot of discontent over the economic decline of the country, 197 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: and instead of doing things to encourage more investment and 198 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: improve relations with the West, which would enable Russia to 199 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 1: make the changes in their own economy, these men at 200 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: the top and the Kremlin, including Putin, don't think about that. 201 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: They think basically about their own bank accounts. There's a 202 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: book you must be done with. It's by the woman 203 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: who was a Financial Times correspondent to Moscow and became ultimately, 204 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: I think the Foreign minister in Canada. Yeah, yeah, she's 205 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: very good. Well. She had this wonderful scene in this book. 206 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: She's out one night, having been there for a while, 207 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: people getting used to her, and she's out with an oligarch, 208 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 1: drinking vodka about two or three in the morning, and 209 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: she's explaining to him, in the sort of Western paternalism, 210 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: how sad it is that they wrote their bill to 211 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: sell the state enterprises so badly that no Western company 212 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: could compete because it was simply not reliable. And the 213 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: guy had had enough to drink and knew her well 214 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: enough he broke up laughing. This is in her book, 215 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: and he says, young lady, I personally wrote that bill 216 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: and it worked perfectly because the goal was to make 217 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: sure there was no competition while we were looting the state. 218 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: I think that captures sort of the dilemma they have, 219 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: in that the immediate core team around putin measures life 220 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: by their victories, and if that means it impoverishes the country, 221 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: as long as their victories are going on, it's fine, yes. 222 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: And as long as they can continue with their immense corruption, 223 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: that's all pretty much they care about. There's a lot 224 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: of nepotism in the Russian government. They make sure that 225 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: their children get plumb jobs in the Kremlin, in ministries 226 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: and so on and so forth, and so they share 227 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: their wealth with their own, but they don't really seem 228 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: to worry very much about the people. Even from a 229 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: rational point of view, they should be nervous, because we 230 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: have to remember that one of the key causes of 231 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: the Soviet collapse was economic discontent. And I would say 232 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: that they're very narrow minded in their goals and interests. 233 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: Their analysis would have been the Garbachov was weak, and 234 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: that he allowed them to crack down appropriately, that the 235 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: economic discontent would have disappeared. Those fear, which had been 236 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: sort of a model for the last seventy years. Let 237 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: me ask you, and this whole pattern of poisoning people 238 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: both inside the country and overseas, to what extent is 239 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: that an invention under Lenin and Stellin of the Czecha 240 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: and Ogpu, And to what extent does it actually go 241 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: back to the Tsarist period? I mean this fascination with 242 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 1: poison well, I talk about that in my latest book, 243 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: Orders to Kill. There is a tradition of terror and 244 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: violence that does go back to the Tsarist period. I 245 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: try to make it clear that I don't think it 246 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: can be attributed to the fact that Russians are more 247 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: bloodthirsty than other nationalities. I think it related to just 248 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: the way their political system worked and the experience of 249 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: the Mongol invasion in the thirteenth century. They just tended 250 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: to solve some of their succession disputes by murder, and 251 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: of course there was no government that could actually call 252 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: people to account. So yeah, there was that tradition, and 253 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:09,959 Speaker 1: even Stalin, aside from the mass terror that he inflicted 254 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 1: on his people, there were also occasionally these covert murders 255 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: where people like Maxim Gorky would die, or fair gay Kiloff, 256 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,120 Speaker 1: the head of the Leningrad Party, who was shot people 257 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: would suspect that Stalin was behind it, but they never 258 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: could prove it, and this kind of sent a message. 259 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: This is a tradition that goes way back, and I 260 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 1: think it's just something that has continued. The Russians work 261 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: on poison gases at a level which they cheerfully lie about, 262 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 1: but which at least one occasion I believe in the 263 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:50,959 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies led to devastation of a town because the 264 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: poison gas factory developed a leak. They have these highly secure, 265 00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: state controlled laboratories. It's well known that they have this 266 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: kind of poison lab right in Moscow, but in addition 267 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: to that, in a city called Saratov, they have a 268 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: special laboratory that produces some of these poisons. And I 269 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: believe that's where polonium two ten, which was the poison 270 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: that was administered to Alexander Littinenko in London in two 271 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 1: thousand and six, that came from that factory and it's 272 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 1: controlled by the security services. No one could possibly get 273 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: into these places, and the same thing would Gopher Novichuk, 274 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 1: which was the poison that almost killed the screepos. We 275 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: know that because it's so highly guarded that no rogue 276 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 1: killer could get ahold of these poisons. That in general, 277 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: it has to be something that's approved at the top 278 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 1: that they are used. In essence, this has to be Putin, 279 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: because they have direct immediate control over that part of 280 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 1: the security system, and nobody else below them would be 281 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: able to go out and do these kind of things 282 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: without at least the task at approval. There would never 283 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: be a written order, of course, But I always take 284 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: issue with people who say, well, maybe Putin didn't actually 285 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: order these killings, he just created a kind of an 286 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: environment in which they could happen. I don't believe that 287 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: for a minute. I think when it comes to high 288 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 1: profile killings, starting with say Anna Politkovskaya, the journalist who 289 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: was a virulent critic of Putin, she also was gunned 290 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 1: down in the starewell of her apartment, followed on with 291 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: numerous others, including Boris Nimsof, who was shot on a 292 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: bridge just outside the Kremlin, these crimes would not be 293 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: just orchestrated by people acting on their own initiative, without consent, 294 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 1: and directed ultimately by mister Putin. I think the way 295 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: the system works there isn't room for kind of personal 296 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: initiative in any of these killings. Part of the point 297 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: is that there's been no pushback. If you look at Ukraine, 298 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: where I think just recently another person was killed in Kiev. 299 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: If you look at the way they operate steal in Crimea, 300 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: then stealing part of eastern Ukraine, then blocking off of 301 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: the Cfasov and then deliberately going after people in Great Britain, 302 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: which seems to be their favorite country to do that 303 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: in the part of the message we're teaching them is 304 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: that they can get away with it. Yes, this is 305 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: a huge dilemma for the West because I think that 306 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: Teresa may reacted very appropriately after their poisonings in Britain, 307 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: but you have to remember that after Litvinenko was assassinated 308 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: in two thousand and six, she was Home Secretary then 309 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: and she really resisted a full fledged investigation of that murder. 310 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: And it wasn't until Lizzinenko's widow, Marina, who really persevered 311 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: in pushed and push and push, that they finally had 312 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 1: an official inquiry in twenty fifteen. So they did react 313 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: at that point very strongly, and I think that Britain 314 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: is to be admired for how they've stood up to 315 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: the Russians. Here in the United States, we haven't had 316 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 1: nearly as strong a reaction to the huge significance of 317 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: such killings, particularly when they take place in Western countries 318 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,199 Speaker 1: like Great Britain. And by the way, the death of 319 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 1: Michael Lessen in a Washington, DC hotel room in twenty fifteen. 320 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: Lesson had been the head of gas Pro media and 321 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: he was really sort of Putin's chief propagandist for a 322 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 1: number of years. He was an oligarch and became extremely wealthy. 323 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,679 Speaker 1: He had two children who were living out on the 324 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 1: West Coast in the United States, and he came to DC. 325 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 1: We don't know exactly why. Some people said he was 326 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: going to talk to the FBI and tell them some 327 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 1: information that they might have wanted to know. Lesson was 328 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: found dead in the DuPont Circle hotel in November twenty fifteen, 329 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 1: and they ruled the death to be from falls that 330 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: he had taken when he was drunk. But there are 331 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: quite a few people who think that that's not the 332 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: whole story, and particularly Radio Liberty Radio for Europe has 333 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: actually gotten some of the medical reports and has openly 334 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: questioned whether he didn't actually die by accident. I bring 335 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 1: up the Lesson case only to point out that, yes, 336 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: these murders have tended to happen in Britain, but it 337 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: could happen in the United States. The other thing is, 338 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:13,159 Speaker 1: of course, is that for the political murders, many of 339 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: which I mentioned in my book, which occur within Russia, 340 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 1: it's a little bit harder for people in the West 341 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 1: to react strongly because they don't have the access to 342 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: all the information. And as we know, mister Putin and 343 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: his colleagues control all the investigative organs. So even in 344 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: the case of worth nim software they've had a trial 345 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,159 Speaker 1: and it was covered in the media and so forth, 346 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: we still don't know a lot because they have control. 347 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: Russia is not a democracy with a free press, so 348 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 1: the only time we in the West can react is 349 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: when something happens in our own country. And that's why 350 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: Britain reacted so strongly the last time, and sanctions, by 351 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 1: the way, do work. Maybe they haven't stopped the behavior 352 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,880 Speaker 1: of Putin and his colleagues, but they certainly have given 353 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: them pause for thought. And I think that the Russian oligarchs, 354 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 1: many of whom live in Britain, have been not very 355 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: happy about this plate is poisoning because it's made it 356 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: more difficult for them. They come in and out of 357 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 1: Britain now and they're under a lot more scrutiny, and 358 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 1: their finances are under more scrutiny. I think the best 359 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: thing that we can do in the West is to 360 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 1: continue with sanctions, continue to call out the Kremlin. Yes, 361 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: expel diplomats if something happens again, at least make it 362 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 1: clear to them that there will be repercussions. Whether or 363 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 1: not it will stop the behavior, is it another question. 364 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: Let me ask you one last question, which is do 365 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: you think they have a particular kind of poison they 366 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: prefer or are they kind of equal opportunity poisoners. Well, 367 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: you know polonium two ten that was used to kill 368 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: Alexander Litvinenko in London. That is a very very dangerous, 369 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 1: deadly poison, and that I think perhaps Russia learned a 370 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: lesson in that case because actually the two killers were careless. 371 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: Apparently they had not been properly educated on how dangerous 372 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: and deadly polonium two ten was, because they actually contaminated 373 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: themselves and they ended up having to be in hospital 374 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: in Russia. Afterwards, they spread polonium on the plane in 375 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: their hotel rooms. As somebody said, like Kensel and Gretel, 376 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 1: they just sprinkled crumbs of it all over London. They 377 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: mishandled it badly. I think that Russia would if they 378 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: ever decide to use some substance again, they probably wouldn't 379 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: pick polonium two ten. I'm not an expert on novichuk, 380 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: but as we know from what can happen just by 381 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: turning a door knob. If that poison is on the knob, 382 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: it can also have unintended consequences. I think they've used 383 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 1: novchuk in the past. In other cases there have been 384 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: stories about it being used earlier. But whatever poison is 385 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: decided upon, I think that whoever is planning and orchestrating 386 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: a murder will be very, very cautious because these things 387 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,400 Speaker 1: can have unintended repercussion in that sense, if I remember correctly, 388 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 1: wasn't it a Bulgarian they killed with an umbrella? Yes, 389 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: Orgie Markoff. They injected something right with the tip of 390 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: the umbrella right right now. I'm not sure if they 391 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,360 Speaker 1: actually found out what that poison was, but the poison 392 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 1: was manufacturing in the Soviet Union, so they were in 393 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: on it. One little prick of that umbrella and he died. 394 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: I have to say, I think the very idea to 395 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,160 Speaker 1: use one of your phrases that we can talk about 396 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,399 Speaker 1: current trends and Russian assassinations. If you think about it, 397 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: it tells you a lot about how strange some of 398 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 1: this stuff is. Yes, it is, And you know, I 399 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,880 Speaker 1: think the one thing maybe to come away with from 400 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,360 Speaker 1: talking with me, and the one thing that my kind 401 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 1: of message is that the real problem with what's happening 402 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: now in Russia and with mister Putin's violent, anti democratic 403 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: rule is that the Russians didn't have a proper lustration 404 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: after the collapse of the Soviet Union. They did not 405 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 1: rid themselves of former KGB officials and Communist Party officials. 406 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 1: I mean, they didn't have a proper reckoning with their past. 407 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 1: And so this is why we're seeing what we see today, 408 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: because the tradition is being continued of what went before 409 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: the Soviet collapse, and until they get rid of the 410 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: people who are carrying on this tradition of violence, it's 411 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: never going to stop. Well, I'll tell you a story 412 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: that sort of illustrates your point. In nineteen ninety three, 413 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: I was on a congressional delegation visiting Moscow with Yeltsin 414 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 1: as president and great Western hopes for a more open, 415 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: more democratic Russia. And I visited with the then Vice 416 00:28:55,920 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: President of Russia, who was a Air Force general. We 417 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: were in his major office. It at a room that 418 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: was probably forty five feet long, and one entire wall 419 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: was a map of the Soviet Union. And I said 420 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: to him, being sort of cheerfully Igland, gosh, that's a 421 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: map of the Soviet Union. He said, looked at me 422 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 1: and he said, yes, and that's what it will look 423 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: like again. Oh. He said that that's fascinating, because Putin 424 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: has said similar things that his biggest regret was the 425 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,719 Speaker 1: Soviet collapse. One other thing that always strikes me whenever 426 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 1: I hear Putin being interviewed or listened to his comments. 427 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: The one thing that Putin and his colleagues and the 428 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: whole ruling circle in Moscow really hate the most is NATO. 429 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: I think that they must have greeted, as you know, 430 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: after the Soviet Block was no longer part of Russia, 431 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 1: the Eastern Bloc, these countries joined NATO. This was a 432 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: tremendous thorn in the side of the people in the Kremlin. 433 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: They probably have reason to be disquieted about this. That's 434 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: just something concrete that they really really detest, which is NATO. 435 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 1: If you look at it from the Russian perspective, we 436 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: have extended NATO to I think within ninety miles of 437 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: the suburbs of Saint Petersburg, right, I think the tension 438 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: there is going to remain. And it's unfortunate, it's said, 439 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: and it would be nice if there was a way 440 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: to get to sort of one more Russian revolution leading 441 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: to a genuinely democratic and open Russia, but that we 442 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: may not see that in our lifetime. Listen, thank you 443 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: very very much for taking this time. We're you're very 444 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: very impressed with the number of books you've written, and 445 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: we wish you luck as you continue down the road 446 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: of trying to explain Russia to the rest of us. Well, 447 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: thank you very much, Nude, it was nice talking to you. 448 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: Neut World is produced by Ganglishly sixty and on a 449 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: heart Meeting. Our exact producer is Debbie Myers, our producer 450 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: is Gornsey Sloan, and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. They 451 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: all work for the show was created by Steve Petner. 452 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingwish three sixty. If 453 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: you've been enjoying newts World, I hope you'll go to 454 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts and both rate us with five stars and 455 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: give us a review so others can learn what it's 456 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: all about. Right now, listeners of NEWT World can sign 457 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: up for my three free weekly columns at gingwish three 458 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is 459 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: NEWT World.