WEBVTT - Golf Architecture 101: Routing

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<v Speaker 1>What is the most important step in designing a golf course.

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<v Speaker 1>If you ask pretty much any practicing golf architect, they're

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<v Speaker 1>probably going to tell you that it's routing. But routing

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<v Speaker 1>is also one of the hardest aspects of golf architecture

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<v Speaker 1>to talk about. Even to longtime enthusiasts, this subject can

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<v Speaker 1>be pretty intimidating and mysterious. So in this episode of

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<v Speaker 1>Golf Architecture one oh one, we're going to try to

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<v Speaker 1>demystify the art of routing a golf course. I'm Garrett Morrison,

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<v Speaker 1>and this is designing golf all right. As always in

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<v Speaker 1>the Golf Architecture one oh one series, my guest slash

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<v Speaker 1>student is PJ Clark. PJ, how you doing, Garrett.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm doing great.

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<v Speaker 3>I like our little matching sweatshirt action we got going

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<v Speaker 3>on here green.

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<v Speaker 1>We have vivid greens going on sea foam.

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<v Speaker 2>After Saint Patrick's Day.

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<v Speaker 3>We're celebrating a day late here, but spring has sprung,

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<v Speaker 3>so I like our little spring actually we got going on.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean I just wear green all week on Saint

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<v Speaker 1>Patrick's Week. Were releasing this episode, well, actually we're releasing

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<v Speaker 1>this episode this week. We're turning around pretty pretty fast.

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<v Speaker 1>So so yeah, we've we're on theme. You're a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit under the weather after an active week at the

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<v Speaker 1>Players Championship, so I appreciate you hopping on with me.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm ready to go.

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<v Speaker 3>I had a great experience at TPC Sawgrass on Monday,

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<v Speaker 3>and I'm ready to learn about what I should have

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<v Speaker 3>been learning while I.

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<v Speaker 2>Was out there.

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<v Speaker 1>You got to see a little bit of pretty high

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<v Speaker 1>level architecture out there. Now, I will say that when

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<v Speaker 1>it comes to TPC Sawgrass, routing isn't the main thing

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<v Speaker 1>about that course that is interesting because there, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>there are some interesting aspects of TPC Sawgrass is routing.

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<v Speaker 1>We can even talk about that in this in this

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<v Speaker 1>installment of of golf Architecture one on one. But there

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't much there to begin with. Yes, So it's not

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<v Speaker 1>like Pete Dye was looking at great landforms and thinking

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<v Speaker 1>about how to use them. The golf course could just

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<v Speaker 1>kind of go wherever because they were building everything Florida.

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<v Speaker 2>Baby, everything's flat. Just throw some stuff out there.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, golf course architecture is a different type of thing

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<v Speaker 1>in Florida for the most part. So we are talking

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<v Speaker 1>about routing today. What have you gathered about routing just

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<v Speaker 1>by you know, producing the Friday Golf podcast for a

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<v Speaker 1>little while. What sort of tidbits about this subject have

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<v Speaker 1>have you absorbed so far?

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<v Speaker 3>I think the different kind of different kinds of routing,

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<v Speaker 3>I guess. I'm sure there's a more technical term for it,

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<v Speaker 3>but an out and back where you come back after

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<v Speaker 3>the front nine and then go go back out again

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<v Speaker 3>and then circle back towards the clubhouse, or if you know,

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<v Speaker 3>of course that you just go out like all the

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<v Speaker 3>way out and you come back in after eighteen, like

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<v Speaker 3>there's no kind of circle back thing, and then kind

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<v Speaker 3>of using the land to the advantage of you know,

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<v Speaker 3>where you're placing holes, like how far is the walk

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<v Speaker 3>necessarily between holes maybe? Or sure how close things are together?

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<v Speaker 3>And I feel like it probably impacts you don't want

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<v Speaker 3>too many I feel like you could say this about

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<v Speaker 3>anything that we talked about in golf architecture what I want,

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<v Speaker 3>but you don't want too many of the same type

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<v Speaker 3>of holes next to each other, Like you don't want

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<v Speaker 3>a bunch of basic, you know, straight par fours next

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<v Speaker 3>to each other. So I feel like that probably has

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<v Speaker 3>something to do with routing.

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<v Speaker 1>Question mark absolutely all of those things pertain to the

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<v Speaker 1>subject of routing, and we can kind of build a

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<v Speaker 1>framework here where you can fit some of those fragments

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<v Speaker 1>that you've that you've gathered over time. But all of

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<v Speaker 1>that that you're saying, we're going to touch on in

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<v Speaker 1>this discussion. So just by way of establishing a definition

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<v Speaker 1>of routing, what is routing? Basically it means identifying the

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<v Speaker 1>locations of the tees, fair ways, and greens for each

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<v Speaker 1>hole and then linking those features together into full holes

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<v Speaker 1>and sequences of holes that become the golf course. So

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it's it's really about building up from a

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<v Speaker 1>topographical map, from a piece of land a layout of

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<v Speaker 1>a golf course.

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<v Speaker 2>As it is craziest.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't understand how anybody could do that. I'm not

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<v Speaker 3>a visual learner. I don't like see things when they're

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<v Speaker 3>on a page in front of me that I could

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<v Speaker 3>just my brain just does that. I don't know how

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<v Speaker 3>you could just look at a map and be like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>there's a golf course there. That's the craziest thing to me.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't understand how it ever happens.

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<v Speaker 1>What kind of learner are are you? By the way,

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<v Speaker 1>I should probably know this.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I think I need to read things.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm not the textual. Yeah, it's not in the abstract,

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<v Speaker 3>not in the abstract at all. If I read it,

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<v Speaker 3>I'll remember it.

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<v Speaker 2>But I don't.

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<v Speaker 3>I can't do anything that involves visualizing anything.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm kind of the same way. I'm pretty textual. But

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<v Speaker 1>auditory also is helpful, and those are those are kind

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<v Speaker 1>of separate paths that different students benefit from. Anyway, that's

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<v Speaker 1>that's going back into my teacher's bag. But in any case,

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<v Speaker 1>it is It is hard to overstate how important routing is.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sort of surprised, actually we haven't covered the topics

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<v Speaker 1>so far. In golf architecture one on one, A strong

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<v Speaker 1>routing is often the thing that separates a good golf

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<v Speaker 1>course from a mediocre golf course. It is the skeletal

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<v Speaker 1>structure of a course, and just from a practical standpoint,

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<v Speaker 1>if you have a good routing, so many things about

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<v Speaker 1>the course just work better. The course will likely be

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<v Speaker 1>cheaper to build than you would expect, it will drain better,

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<v Speaker 1>it will be more walkable, the pace of play will

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<v Speaker 1>be better. And most important, a good routing is, in

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<v Speaker 1>my mind, the key thing that makes for an enjoyable

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<v Speaker 1>playing experience, even if the players not really aware of

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<v Speaker 1>the fact that the routing is creating pleasure. It's not

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<v Speaker 1>something that golfers normally think about in those terms, because

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<v Speaker 1>you like, a good routing is harder to perceive than

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<v Speaker 1>really high level conditioning or interesting bunker shapes or cool

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<v Speaker 1>greens or whatever. Right, routing is sort of the invisible

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<v Speaker 1>factor that influences everything about the course but never fully

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<v Speaker 1>shows itself, And often it's the thing that makes you

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<v Speaker 1>enjoy a course that otherwise might not have that much

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<v Speaker 1>going for it. If you have a course that's not

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<v Speaker 1>in very good shape, or has lost a bunch of

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<v Speaker 1>bunkers over time, or is over tr read, but you

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<v Speaker 1>play it and you're like, why did I enjoy that

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<v Speaker 1>so much? Usually it's because the course has a solid routing.

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<v Speaker 1>So when someone says a municipal golf course or an

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<v Speaker 1>affordable golf course has good bones, often I think what

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<v Speaker 1>they really mean is that it has a good routing.

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<v Speaker 1>Does that resonate with you or remind you of any

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<v Speaker 1>courses that you've played.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a good question.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh, I don't know if the off the top of

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<v Speaker 3>my head necessarily but I mean that makes sense. Like

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<v Speaker 3>I hear you guys talk about good good bones all

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<v Speaker 3>the time, and how you know if X, Y and

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<v Speaker 3>Z or restored or fixed that it could get a

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<v Speaker 3>lot better. But you need the uh, you need the

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<v Speaker 3>basic golf holes to exist before you can put the

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<v Speaker 3>kind of finishing touches on everything. So I feel like

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<v Speaker 3>that's a that's a good way to think about it,

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<v Speaker 3>that you just laid out, That just clicked, That just

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<v Speaker 3>clicks something in me.

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<v Speaker 1>There a lot of the courses at Bethpage, aside from

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<v Speaker 1>the Black Horse, are your classic good bones golf courses.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, the Red course has really really good bones

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<v Speaker 1>and it's in good shape too.

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<v Speaker 3>I was going to say, I don't know if I

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<v Speaker 3>didn't know if Red would apply necessarily, because I think

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<v Speaker 3>reddis everybody here loves Red more than they love Black, honestly.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, it definitely has a little bit more charm.

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<v Speaker 1>And again, you know, Okay, so the black Horse has

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<v Speaker 1>an exceptional routing, I think, but part of what makes

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<v Speaker 1>makes Red so pleasurable is that it's just a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit more fun.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and.

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<v Speaker 1>So, and I think part of the reason for that

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<v Speaker 1>is that the choices that were made in the routing

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<v Speaker 1>of that course lend themselves to fun rather than just

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<v Speaker 1>this kind of adventure of difficulty that the black course provides.

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<v Speaker 1>In any case, I think you know. One of the

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<v Speaker 1>reasons I think studying routing or no, a little not

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<v Speaker 1>studying it necessarily, just knowing a little bit about it

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<v Speaker 1>is important for golfers is that it can help you

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<v Speaker 1>appreciate golf courses that don't have huge maintenance budgets, right,

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<v Speaker 1>or that are otherwise maybe not very well known or

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<v Speaker 1>widely appreciated. It allows you to find hidden gems and

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<v Speaker 1>appreciate hidden gems because routing is something that a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of unexpected courses have a good routing right. And so

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<v Speaker 1>that's kind of what we're digging into in this episode,

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<v Speaker 1>the ability to appreciate golf courses for more than just

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<v Speaker 1>their kind of surface appearance or for the easy things

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<v Speaker 1>that there are to appreciate. We're talking about some of

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<v Speaker 1>the deeper things about golf courses that we can understand

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<v Speaker 1>and enjoy here. So what we'll cover two main topics

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<v Speaker 1>in this episode related to routing. The first will be

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<v Speaker 1>how an architect goes about routing a course, and the

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<v Speaker 1>second will be how a player can assess the quality

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<v Speaker 1>of a course's routing, and those are really two separate things,

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<v Speaker 1>so we'll talk about both of those things. But before

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<v Speaker 1>all of that, let's discuss the new Cobalt QZ six

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<v Speaker 1>slope rangefinder. The QZ six represents a significant leap in

0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:31.040
<v Speaker 1>golf rangefinder technology. Most rangefinders have fixed magnification right, but

0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:36.240
<v Speaker 1>the Cobalt QZ six has an optical zoom feature ranging

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<v Speaker 1>from six x to twelve X, so when you're on

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<v Speaker 1>the golf course, you can just see your target better.

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<v Speaker 1>You can identify your exact landing spot more clearly, you

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<v Speaker 1>can assess the contours of the fairway or the green

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<v Speaker 1>more easily. You can actually see the characteristics of a

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<v Speaker 1>pin placement. All that stuff is is pretty useful and

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<v Speaker 1>not something you typically get with a standard rangefinder. In

0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:04.760
<v Speaker 1>addition to zoom, the QZ six has Cobalts proprietary pin

0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:08.680
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0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:12.960
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0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:19.480
<v Speaker 1>from five to twenty five hundred yards, including six hundred

0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:23.520
<v Speaker 1>plus yards to the pin and two thousand yards to trees.

0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:26.800
<v Speaker 1>And I stumbled on that five to twenty five hundred

0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:30.680
<v Speaker 1>yards because that's a big range right there. But that

0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:34.520
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0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:38.040
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<v Speaker 1>it out. Okay, let's get into a topic number one

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<v Speaker 1>for the day PG, which is how an architect routes

0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:20.360
<v Speaker 1>a golf course. Now, obviously, I myself have never routed

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<v Speaker 1>a golf course, so what I'm about to tell you

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<v Speaker 1>is really one big synthesis and simplification of things I've

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<v Speaker 1>learned from talking to architects and reading things that architects

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<v Speaker 1>have written. Maybe you should find a teacher for this

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<v Speaker 1>subject who has actually designed golf courses before. I don't know,

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like I'm a bit of a charlotte in here.

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<v Speaker 1>So I'll do my best.

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<v Speaker 2>Though I think this is gonna be great.

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<v Speaker 3>I think because I know basically nothing, I think anything

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<v Speaker 3>is progress at this point.

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<v Speaker 1>One particular architect who is very informative on the subject

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<v Speaker 1>of routing and knows a lot more than I do

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<v Speaker 1>is Tom Doak. No one has done as much as

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<v Speaker 1>Doak specifically to popularize the discussion of routing. It is

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<v Speaker 1>really his signature topic. And one thing that Doak likes

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<v Speaker 1>to say that I always think about is that routing

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<v Speaker 1>a golf course is like putting together a puzzle, except

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<v Speaker 1>that you never know whether you've found the right answer.

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<v Speaker 1>There are many possible answers and results that the routing

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<v Speaker 1>process could yield, and you just can't know whether the

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<v Speaker 1>one you've come up with is the best one. You

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<v Speaker 1>just have to decide that it's good enough and you

0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:42.280
<v Speaker 1>sort of go with it. But most golf architects agree

0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:47.679
<v Speaker 1>broadly on the goal of routing, and that goal is

0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:53.199
<v Speaker 1>twofold one. You want to take advantage of a property's

0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:56.880
<v Speaker 1>best natural assets, and you especially want to take advantage

0:13:56.920 --> 0:14:01.199
<v Speaker 1>of its topography, which is to say, it's contour, undulation,

0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:05.240
<v Speaker 1>elevation change, et cetera. You want your holes to interact

0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:10.160
<v Speaker 1>with those features in an interesting way. Two, you're trying

0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:13.240
<v Speaker 1>to connect the holes you found in the landscape into

0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:18.240
<v Speaker 1>a walkable, compelling sequence. And we'll talk a little more

0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.240
<v Speaker 1>later about what makes for a good sequence of holes.

0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:25.000
<v Speaker 1>So those are the two goals that most architects would

0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:28.400
<v Speaker 1>agree on when it comes to routing. Maximize the natural

0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:31.360
<v Speaker 1>topography and connect the holes into a sequence that makes sense.

0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:35.400
<v Speaker 1>So the first step in the routing process is to

0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:41.000
<v Speaker 1>familiarize yourself with the site. Often this is done remotely

0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:45.480
<v Speaker 1>using aerial photographs and what's called a topographic map or

0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:48.360
<v Speaker 1>topo map. Have you ever seen a topo map? Do

0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:49.240
<v Speaker 1>you know what these look like?

0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:54.320
<v Speaker 3>I have, because we have some on the website. I've

0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:58.520
<v Speaker 3>encountered it at some point, and some designing notebooks and

0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:03.120
<v Speaker 3>the whole desig contest, right, there was a map involved

0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:06.600
<v Speaker 3>in that, so I'm generally familiar. I wouldn't say I

0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:09.000
<v Speaker 3>know how to read it, but I've seen one before.

0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:11.680
<v Speaker 1>You know, some people just have this thing where they're

0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:14.880
<v Speaker 1>able to read a topo map and other people are

0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:17.520
<v Speaker 1>baffled by them. I think most people can get to

0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:20.720
<v Speaker 1>a state of competence with reading a topo map, but

0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:25.120
<v Speaker 1>they're certainly those who are talented at it. And you know,

0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:27.240
<v Speaker 1>what I want you to envision with a topo map

0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:30.600
<v Speaker 1>is a map of a site with a bunch of

0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:36.160
<v Speaker 1>curving lines one and these lines represent different elevations, and

0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:39.760
<v Speaker 1>so when the lines are close together, that means it's steep.

0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:45.080
<v Speaker 1>When the lines are far apart, that means that it's flatter, right,

0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:47.360
<v Speaker 1>And so that's that's kind of what you and you

0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:51.480
<v Speaker 1>learn to just sort of recognize ridges and valleys and

0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:56.960
<v Speaker 1>different topographical features by looking at a topo map. But

0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:00.200
<v Speaker 1>this is a this is a key tool in the

0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:04.600
<v Speaker 1>routing process. It's really important. So you know, experienced architects

0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:07.480
<v Speaker 1>will often be able to come up with a rough

0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:10.920
<v Speaker 1>routing or at least a few options for routings just

0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:14.040
<v Speaker 1>by studying a topo map and identifying places where they

0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:18.440
<v Speaker 1>know holes will fit. But it's also critical to get

0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:21.640
<v Speaker 1>out to the property, walk around and see what will

0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:24.880
<v Speaker 1>work and what won't work. From the ground. Now, in

0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:29.160
<v Speaker 1>those initial stages of routing, architects are typically looking first

0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:33.720
<v Speaker 1>for green sites. They're looking for interesting features to build

0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:38.200
<v Speaker 1>greens into because greens are the focal point of a

0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:40.400
<v Speaker 1>golf course, So if you want to take advantage of

0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:43.480
<v Speaker 1>a property's best natural assets, right, if that's goal number

0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:46.680
<v Speaker 1>one of routing, If you want to draw the player's

0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:50.880
<v Speaker 1>attention to interesting features in the landscape, the best way

0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:53.360
<v Speaker 1>to do that is to build your greens into those

0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:58.680
<v Speaker 1>features because players really spend the most time on the greens,

0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:02.360
<v Speaker 1>and the most interesting stuff happens and important stuff happens

0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:07.440
<v Speaker 1>on the greens. So again, maximizing natural topography means finding

0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:10.520
<v Speaker 1>good places to put greens. You're also just looking for

0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:15.800
<v Speaker 1>places where greens can be constructed and maintained relatively easily.

0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:20.960
<v Speaker 1>So on steep properties, you're trying to actually identify flatter

0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:24.520
<v Speaker 1>areas where you could naturally put a green that would

0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:27.760
<v Speaker 1>be functional, because if you put a green on a

0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:30.480
<v Speaker 1>piece of land that is too steep, then the ball

0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:32.679
<v Speaker 1>is not going to stay on it, right, It's not

0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:35.560
<v Speaker 1>going to work. So if you have a very hilly

0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:39.960
<v Speaker 1>or just big, you know, tilted site, what you're looking

0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:42.040
<v Speaker 1>for on the topa map is those places where the

0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:45.920
<v Speaker 1>lines are farther apart so that you can actually naturally

0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:50.400
<v Speaker 1>place a green there without having to build big structures

0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:55.040
<v Speaker 1>to hold to hold the green up flat on flat properties,

0:17:55.600 --> 0:18:00.639
<v Speaker 1>you really have the opposite problem. What you're looking for

0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:06.639
<v Speaker 1>on flat properties is whatever topographical features there might be,

0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:10.280
<v Speaker 1>and that's where you'll want to locate at the greens.

0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:12.720
<v Speaker 1>So if you have a flatter property and you're looking

0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:15.080
<v Speaker 1>at the topa map, you're looking more for where the

0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:18.359
<v Speaker 1>lines are closer together, because you might actually have some

0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:22.439
<v Speaker 1>interesting landforms there that you can tie greens into. You

0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:25.359
<v Speaker 1>don't just want to build greens on plane flat land.

0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:28.320
<v Speaker 1>I mean sometimes you have to do that, but it's

0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:32.679
<v Speaker 1>not preferred. You want to hook your greens into interesting features. Okay.

0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:36.199
<v Speaker 1>So once you have located some green sites, then you

0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:40.040
<v Speaker 1>can start looking for fairways or especially landing zones for

0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:42.760
<v Speaker 1>tea shots, because landing zones in some ways are similar

0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:45.280
<v Speaker 1>to greens where where you need it to be functional,

0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:48.720
<v Speaker 1>You need the ball to be able to stay there.

0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:52.440
<v Speaker 1>You need something of the right size and relative flatness

0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:55.560
<v Speaker 1>to work as a fairway. And also you want your

0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:57.639
<v Speaker 1>fairways to be interesting. You don't want them just to

0:18:57.640 --> 0:19:00.960
<v Speaker 1>be flat, so you know, find some top graphical features

0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:06.680
<v Speaker 1>to route your fairways over. Now, often fairways are best

0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:10.600
<v Speaker 1>placed in valleys or along the crest of a ridge,

0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:16.440
<v Speaker 1>or just on gentle slopes or gently undulating ground. That's

0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:20.040
<v Speaker 1>where fairways work. Green sites can be kind of smaller, right,

0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:25.040
<v Speaker 1>Fairway sites have to be generally broader. And then finally

0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:29.600
<v Speaker 1>you can find some tees or locations for putting different teas.

0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:34.159
<v Speaker 1>But this isn't quite as important because tees are small

0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:39.560
<v Speaker 1>and they can be built relatively easily, even on ground

0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:43.520
<v Speaker 1>that isn't well suited naturally to a tee. So you

0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:46.920
<v Speaker 1>found your greens, you found your fairways, you found your tees.

0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:51.720
<v Speaker 1>So basically what architects are doing in the early stages

0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:55.199
<v Speaker 1>of routing is looking for the best natural locations for

0:19:55.280 --> 0:20:01.280
<v Speaker 1>playing areas, and that is greens, fairways and all that

0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:01.720
<v Speaker 1>makes sense.

0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:07.280
<v Speaker 2>So far, that does make sense. I think when when.

0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:12.359
<v Speaker 3>You when you're looking for a green on the topo map,

0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:16.520
<v Speaker 3>is that just for the green itself or the entire

0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:19.080
<v Speaker 3>green complex of like what you're looking to do with

0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:22.359
<v Speaker 3>the green, like bunkers or slopes to the side of it,

0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:25.920
<v Speaker 3>or you just trying to put the actual putting surface down.

0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:29.040
<v Speaker 1>I think you're looking for a good place for an

0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:33.360
<v Speaker 1>entire green complex, okay, And you know the reason for

0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:37.480
<v Speaker 1>that is sometimes the topographical features that you use for

0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:42.520
<v Speaker 1>a green complex are not within the putting surface itself necessarily.

0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:45.240
<v Speaker 1>Sometimes it's just good to put a green kind of

0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:49.679
<v Speaker 1>near a really interesting topographical feature. If there's like a

0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:52.879
<v Speaker 1>big abrupt knoll, you're not gonna put the green on

0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:55.199
<v Speaker 1>top of it because you'd have to you'd have to

0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:59.520
<v Speaker 1>move some earth to to make that happen. But if

0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:02.040
<v Speaker 1>you put the being kind of next to it, then

0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:05.080
<v Speaker 1>it's interesting to look at because you're you're you're orienting

0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:09.840
<v Speaker 1>the player's vision toward that cool landform, and you know

0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:12.720
<v Speaker 1>it might not factor into the putting surface itself, but

0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:16.920
<v Speaker 1>the green complex ties into it. But it's there, right, Yeah,

0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:18.960
<v Speaker 1>And that's that's just you know, a lot of what

0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:22.320
<v Speaker 1>architects are doing a routing is just pointing players at

0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:24.120
<v Speaker 1>the cool features of the landscape.

0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:24.639
<v Speaker 2>Cool.

0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:29.119
<v Speaker 1>That brings us to the second major step in routing

0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:32.439
<v Speaker 1>a golf course, which is connecting these sites for greens,

0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:37.920
<v Speaker 1>fairways and tees into a full sequence of golf holes.

0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:41.000
<v Speaker 3>Now, this is this is where you lose it. Yeah,

0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:43.520
<v Speaker 3>this is this is the crazy part where you know,

0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:46.440
<v Speaker 3>good luck. I'm happy people do it, but I don't

0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:47.600
<v Speaker 3>understand how we get there.

0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:51.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm glad you think so, because I feel the

0:21:51.160 --> 0:21:53.840
<v Speaker 1>same way about it. It's it just seems impossible, right

0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:56.560
<v Speaker 1>If you start by looking for all these separate green

0:21:56.640 --> 0:21:59.920
<v Speaker 1>sites and fairway landing zones, how do you even start

0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:03.119
<v Speaker 1>to construct golf holes out of that stuff? Much less

0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:06.360
<v Speaker 1>a full sequence of eighteen holes, much less a sequence

0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:08.040
<v Speaker 1>of eighteen holes as it has a part of seventy

0:22:08.080 --> 0:22:09.720
<v Speaker 1>two in a yardage of the way you know, et cetera,

0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:13.600
<v Speaker 1>et cetera. This is really where the puzzle metaphor kicks in,

0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:17.200
<v Speaker 1>because yes, it is very tricky to link together all

0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:22.920
<v Speaker 1>these different spots into anything resembling a conventional golf course. Now,

0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:26.160
<v Speaker 1>one key thing that skillful architects do is that they

0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:29.959
<v Speaker 1>suit the length and type of hole to the character

0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:33.520
<v Speaker 1>of the land. Often this means putting shorter holes on

0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:38.040
<v Speaker 1>more severe land and longer holes on less severe land.

0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:40.960
<v Speaker 1>And the reason for that is that a long hole

0:22:41.119 --> 0:22:44.080
<v Speaker 1>on severe land will require probably a lot of earth

0:22:44.119 --> 0:22:47.879
<v Speaker 1>moving to build and will usually be very difficult to play.

0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:51.800
<v Speaker 1>So it's just more practical to put short holes on

0:22:52.119 --> 0:22:55.920
<v Speaker 1>the most severe kind of transitional sections of the property.

0:22:57.000 --> 0:22:59.720
<v Speaker 1>But the architects should also have a sense of winter

0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:04.639
<v Speaker 1>viholate that principle to create something unique and exciting. So

0:23:05.119 --> 0:23:09.560
<v Speaker 1>you know, the open last year was at Royal Port Rush.

0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:12.400
<v Speaker 1>A famous hole at Royal Port Rush is the sixteenth

0:23:12.480 --> 0:23:16.080
<v Speaker 1>Calamity Corner. Yes, it is a par three, so I

0:23:16.119 --> 0:23:20.240
<v Speaker 1>guess technically a short hole, but it's a long part three.

0:23:20.520 --> 0:23:22.720
<v Speaker 1>This is not a one hundred and forty yard part three.

0:23:22.760 --> 0:23:25.640
<v Speaker 1>This is a very long strike and it's on an

0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:29.360
<v Speaker 1>incredibly severe piece of land. It's it's you know, kind

0:23:29.400 --> 0:23:34.240
<v Speaker 1>of on the edge of this huge canyon. And that

0:23:34.280 --> 0:23:39.440
<v Speaker 1>hole is incredibly memorable, really a great great golf hole,

0:23:39.560 --> 0:23:42.720
<v Speaker 1>and it is it is function, it does work, it's playable.

0:23:43.520 --> 0:23:47.679
<v Speaker 1>But in that instance, the architect had a sense in

0:23:47.720 --> 0:23:49.719
<v Speaker 1>the architect being in this case, Harry Colet had a

0:23:49.760 --> 0:23:53.520
<v Speaker 1>sense for when to use a severe piece of land

0:23:54.080 --> 0:23:58.159
<v Speaker 1>for a longer hole relative to par because he was looking,

0:23:58.560 --> 0:24:01.080
<v Speaker 1>he was he was shooting for the star there, right.

0:24:01.600 --> 0:24:03.879
<v Speaker 1>Probably the conventional thing to do with that piece of

0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:07.360
<v Speaker 1>land would have been to create a short part three there,

0:24:07.720 --> 0:24:11.159
<v Speaker 1>but but he went big and ended up with with

0:24:11.240 --> 0:24:13.880
<v Speaker 1>something great. So with all of these kind of rules

0:24:13.920 --> 0:24:18.320
<v Speaker 1>that I'm talking about, architects violate them when when they

0:24:18.320 --> 0:24:23.360
<v Speaker 1>see fit and that's what what makes golf architecture kind

0:24:23.359 --> 0:24:26.360
<v Speaker 1>of in art as opposed to an exact science.

0:24:26.640 --> 0:24:29.440
<v Speaker 3>You know, rules are meant to be broken. They're just guidelines.

0:24:29.560 --> 0:24:33.640
<v Speaker 3>They're they're there. It's fine. I feel like you can

0:24:33.840 --> 0:24:35.800
<v Speaker 3>you can get away. If you can do it well,

0:24:35.880 --> 0:24:37.520
<v Speaker 3>you can get away with it. And that's what people

0:24:37.600 --> 0:24:39.480
<v Speaker 3>make people like Calamity Corner.

0:24:39.920 --> 0:24:42.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, greatness consists of knowing when to when to break

0:24:42.720 --> 0:24:46.159
<v Speaker 1>the rules, as as we've seen with you know, some

0:24:46.200 --> 0:24:48.760
<v Speaker 1>of the decisions that the Jets have made recently. They

0:24:48.840 --> 0:24:51.919
<v Speaker 1>might break the rules, they might violate common sense, but

0:24:52.240 --> 0:24:55.520
<v Speaker 1>you know, greatness is the goal and and greatness is

0:24:55.520 --> 0:24:56.320
<v Speaker 1>coming in the future.

0:24:56.400 --> 0:24:59.879
<v Speaker 3>Right. Uh, people would tell you that. I don't know

0:24:59.840 --> 0:25:03.239
<v Speaker 3>if Hi Wood, but people would I feel like, you know,

0:25:03.359 --> 0:25:05.640
<v Speaker 3>our friend Harry Colton might be a little bit better

0:25:05.680 --> 0:25:06.720
<v Speaker 3>off than the Jets are.

0:25:06.840 --> 0:25:13.440
<v Speaker 1>But all right, obviously, you know, there's only so much

0:25:13.520 --> 0:25:20.000
<v Speaker 1>you can do on properties with just purely natural golf holes.

0:25:19.840 --> 0:25:24.320
<v Speaker 1>It's pretty rare that you would have, you know, a

0:25:24.400 --> 0:25:27.520
<v Speaker 1>routing consisting only of natural golf holes that you just

0:25:27.640 --> 0:25:31.920
<v Speaker 1>found in the landscape. So it is in this part

0:25:31.960 --> 0:25:35.760
<v Speaker 1>of the process that the architect decides which natural holes

0:25:35.760 --> 0:25:39.040
<v Speaker 1>to include, and then what must be done to link

0:25:39.119 --> 0:25:42.760
<v Speaker 1>those holes together. So say you have two great natural

0:25:42.760 --> 0:25:44.919
<v Speaker 1>holes that are just sitting there in the land waiting

0:25:44.960 --> 0:25:47.080
<v Speaker 1>to be grasped, and you want to use them. You

0:25:47.119 --> 0:25:50.920
<v Speaker 1>want to incorporate them into your routing. But between them

0:25:50.960 --> 0:25:54.119
<v Speaker 1>you have terrain that's not very well suited to golf.

0:25:54.440 --> 0:25:58.080
<v Speaker 1>Either it's extremely severe or it's too flat and boring.

0:25:58.920 --> 0:26:02.680
<v Speaker 1>Something needs to be manufactured there in order to bring

0:26:02.800 --> 0:26:05.880
<v Speaker 1>that hole up to the standard of the natural holes

0:26:05.960 --> 0:26:08.840
<v Speaker 1>on either side of it. And it's during the routing

0:26:08.880 --> 0:26:13.000
<v Speaker 1>stage that the architect decides, Okay, we'll make something out

0:26:13.000 --> 0:26:16.960
<v Speaker 1>of this piece of land in order to have these

0:26:17.000 --> 0:26:22.240
<v Speaker 1>two great natural holes, and really good architects are able

0:26:22.320 --> 0:26:25.400
<v Speaker 1>to make it seem like that bad piece of land

0:26:25.440 --> 0:26:29.200
<v Speaker 1>in the middle was actually good all along. You know where.

0:26:29.280 --> 0:26:32.560
<v Speaker 1>That's where the art of construction and design kicks in

0:26:32.760 --> 0:26:37.320
<v Speaker 1>later in the process. Okay, Now, once you've figured out

0:26:37.480 --> 0:26:40.720
<v Speaker 1>which holes go where, you have to consider the overall

0:26:40.720 --> 0:26:45.240
<v Speaker 1>sequencing of the golf course. Most clients, most developers, are

0:26:45.280 --> 0:26:48.960
<v Speaker 1>gonna want eighteen holes, two loops of nine, and a

0:26:49.000 --> 0:26:52.919
<v Speaker 1>par of seventy or above. They're gonna want two to

0:26:53.040 --> 0:26:58.000
<v Speaker 1>four par fives, four to five, par three's, tennish par fours.

0:26:59.000 --> 0:27:01.760
<v Speaker 1>So those are all the conventional things. You know. It's

0:27:01.840 --> 0:27:05.000
<v Speaker 1>good when developers are willing to not have those things,

0:27:05.040 --> 0:27:07.320
<v Speaker 1>I think, in order to allow the architect to just

0:27:07.440 --> 0:27:11.280
<v Speaker 1>work with land and find what's there. But most of

0:27:11.320 --> 0:27:14.200
<v Speaker 1>the time they're going to want those conventional numbers. They're

0:27:14.240 --> 0:27:16.480
<v Speaker 1>going to want a max yardage of more than seven

0:27:16.520 --> 0:27:20.880
<v Speaker 1>thousand yards, so right there, on most projects you have

0:27:21.119 --> 0:27:25.480
<v Speaker 1>a lot of standards to meet. But the more important

0:27:25.480 --> 0:27:28.040
<v Speaker 1>thing to me personally into a lot of good architects

0:27:28.119 --> 0:27:32.680
<v Speaker 1>is that the routing have some sort of variety, balance

0:27:32.880 --> 0:27:36.680
<v Speaker 1>and flow across the round. Whether that means it has

0:27:37.080 --> 0:27:39.560
<v Speaker 1>the usual composition of par four's, part three's and par

0:27:39.680 --> 0:27:42.800
<v Speaker 1>fives doesn't matter as much to me as long as

0:27:42.800 --> 0:27:46.640
<v Speaker 1>there is variety, balance and flow. And we can talk

0:27:46.680 --> 0:27:50.520
<v Speaker 1>a little bit later about about what those things mean. Variety,

0:27:50.600 --> 0:27:54.680
<v Speaker 1>balance and flow. Another thing that good architects look for

0:27:55.280 --> 0:27:59.080
<v Speaker 1>in this kind of connecting part of the process is

0:27:59.440 --> 0:28:03.720
<v Speaker 1>something you mentioned earlier, PJ, and that is reasonably short

0:28:03.880 --> 0:28:07.560
<v Speaker 1>grain to tea transitions, which we'll also talk about later.

0:28:08.240 --> 0:28:11.280
<v Speaker 1>But those are the basics of how an architect goes

0:28:11.320 --> 0:28:14.840
<v Speaker 1>about routing a golf course. Is there anything in there

0:28:14.840 --> 0:28:18.640
<v Speaker 1>that kind of stands out to you as surprising or notable?

0:28:20.880 --> 0:28:25.200
<v Speaker 3>I feel like not necessarily surprising, but when you have

0:28:25.480 --> 0:28:31.760
<v Speaker 3>just a blank canvas trying to having the guidelines to fit,

0:28:31.960 --> 0:28:34.520
<v Speaker 3>you know, I need seventy two hundred yards and I

0:28:34.600 --> 0:28:39.160
<v Speaker 3>need eighteen holes of a par seventy two, So I

0:28:39.240 --> 0:28:43.320
<v Speaker 3>can't get like super creative, Like I don't know, like

0:28:43.360 --> 0:28:49.160
<v Speaker 3>you said, is there room for more open interpretation in

0:28:49.720 --> 0:28:52.200
<v Speaker 3>new builds now, where like maybe it's a bar like

0:28:52.600 --> 0:28:55.560
<v Speaker 3>sixty eight and it's a little shorter and there's more

0:28:56.200 --> 0:28:57.240
<v Speaker 3>to get creative with?

0:28:57.520 --> 0:29:01.080
<v Speaker 2>Or are are is the tradition of.

0:29:01.080 --> 0:29:05.120
<v Speaker 3>You know, par seventy two eighteen holes nine and nine

0:29:05.240 --> 0:29:05.760
<v Speaker 3>kind of thing?

0:29:05.920 --> 0:29:08.160
<v Speaker 2>Is that still?

0:29:08.280 --> 0:29:11.680
<v Speaker 3>I feel like it's still the prevailing theory, But is

0:29:11.720 --> 0:29:13.720
<v Speaker 3>there more kind of latitude with that now?

0:29:14.280 --> 0:29:16.880
<v Speaker 1>I think there is more latitude with that now. And

0:29:16.920 --> 0:29:21.360
<v Speaker 1>that's partly because we have developers like the Kaiser family

0:29:21.880 --> 0:29:24.720
<v Speaker 1>who are open to crazy ideas from the likes of

0:29:25.280 --> 0:29:29.160
<v Speaker 1>Tom Doak to have you know, a PAR sixty eight

0:29:29.200 --> 0:29:30.760
<v Speaker 1>course like like Sedge.

0:29:30.520 --> 0:29:33.920
<v Speaker 3>Valley, So he does he just see that on a map,

0:29:34.280 --> 0:29:36.959
<v Speaker 3>like he just gets the map and is like, I

0:29:37.000 --> 0:29:40.080
<v Speaker 3>can only build you know, however long this is going

0:29:40.120 --> 0:29:42.200
<v Speaker 3>to be like sixty eight hundred yards, so it's got

0:29:42.240 --> 0:29:43.160
<v Speaker 3>to be a par sixty eight.

0:29:43.200 --> 0:29:44.040
<v Speaker 2>Is that how it works?

0:29:45.040 --> 0:29:48.280
<v Speaker 1>I don't think that in that case he looked at

0:29:48.280 --> 0:29:50.640
<v Speaker 1>the map and said, I can only build a par

0:29:50.760 --> 0:29:54.520
<v Speaker 1>sixty eight course here. I think what Doak did on

0:29:54.560 --> 0:29:57.920
<v Speaker 1>the Sedge Valley project at Sand Valley was that he

0:29:58.560 --> 0:30:01.880
<v Speaker 1>assessed this piece of land and saw that it kind

0:30:01.960 --> 0:30:05.400
<v Speaker 1>of had these sort of smaller pockets in the property,

0:30:05.560 --> 0:30:11.080
<v Speaker 1>like there were kind of more severe crowded undulations in

0:30:11.120 --> 0:30:15.200
<v Speaker 1>that property as compared to like Mammoth Dunes or Sand Valley,

0:30:15.240 --> 0:30:20.040
<v Speaker 1>which have more kind of broad slopes. And his general

0:30:20.040 --> 0:30:25.040
<v Speaker 1>impression was what would fit really well here is kind

0:30:25.080 --> 0:30:29.560
<v Speaker 1>of a sporting golf course that's a little bit shorter,

0:30:30.280 --> 0:30:34.200
<v Speaker 1>that doesn't have the max yardage of seven thousand or above,

0:30:34.200 --> 0:30:39.239
<v Speaker 1>that doesn't have the max par of seventy two. Just

0:30:39.640 --> 0:30:43.960
<v Speaker 1>something smaller would fit. And I think also Doke independently

0:30:44.720 --> 0:30:47.800
<v Speaker 1>wanted to build a course like this, wanted to challenge

0:30:47.840 --> 0:30:51.360
<v Speaker 1>the notion that a course had to have a part

0:30:51.400 --> 0:30:54.840
<v Speaker 1>of seventy two and a certain yardage, So I think

0:30:54.880 --> 0:30:57.280
<v Speaker 1>it was a combination of looking at that site and

0:30:57.360 --> 0:31:00.480
<v Speaker 1>just having a general sense that a smaller course would

0:31:00.520 --> 0:31:03.680
<v Speaker 1>fit here, but also I kind of want to build

0:31:03.720 --> 0:31:06.280
<v Speaker 1>this type of course just to get people thinking a

0:31:06.280 --> 0:31:10.680
<v Speaker 1>little bit. Now. Douk, as I mentioned before, is an

0:31:10.760 --> 0:31:13.760
<v Speaker 1>intellectual of routing, like this is his big subject. He's

0:31:13.760 --> 0:31:17.480
<v Speaker 1>written books about the routing process. He loves talking about it,

0:31:17.520 --> 0:31:20.840
<v Speaker 1>and it's something that he's brought to the four more

0:31:20.960 --> 0:31:24.440
<v Speaker 1>than any architect has done, I think in the history

0:31:24.440 --> 0:31:29.160
<v Speaker 1>of the profession, and so he does love these experiments

0:31:29.160 --> 0:31:32.640
<v Speaker 1>in routing. He's done a reversible course, for instance, at

0:31:32.680 --> 0:31:37.320
<v Speaker 1>the Loop at Forest Dunes in Michigan, and Pacific Dunes.

0:31:37.360 --> 0:31:41.920
<v Speaker 1>His big kind of breakout design has some really interesting

0:31:42.040 --> 0:31:45.760
<v Speaker 1>elements of its routing. It has back to back par threes,

0:31:46.320 --> 0:31:50.440
<v Speaker 1>it does not have returning nines. At that point in

0:31:50.480 --> 0:31:54.560
<v Speaker 1>golf architecture history, those things were unusual, and I think

0:31:54.600 --> 0:32:00.320
<v Speaker 1>courses like Pacific Dunes have made them more acceptable. Yes,

0:32:00.400 --> 0:32:03.080
<v Speaker 1>we are seeing more experiments and routing. We're seeing a

0:32:03.120 --> 0:32:06.960
<v Speaker 1>willingness to challenge the usual conventions, and I think that's

0:32:07.000 --> 0:32:10.960
<v Speaker 1>a good thing because I think that architects have often

0:32:11.080 --> 0:32:16.760
<v Speaker 1>had to abandon the goal of maximizing natural topography for

0:32:16.840 --> 0:32:21.640
<v Speaker 1>the sake of meeting certain conventions in the past, and

0:32:21.680 --> 0:32:27.080
<v Speaker 1>I would rather architects just focus on maximizing the land. Now,

0:32:27.120 --> 0:32:29.400
<v Speaker 1>if you go way back in the history of golf,

0:32:30.240 --> 0:32:33.920
<v Speaker 1>you find even more interesting stuff. Before the eighteen whole

0:32:34.000 --> 0:32:36.520
<v Speaker 1>round became standardized, and it was really the old course

0:32:36.560 --> 0:32:40.560
<v Speaker 1>at San Andrews that standardized the eighteen hole par seventy

0:32:40.560 --> 0:32:44.959
<v Speaker 1>two round or par seventy sorry again San Andrews par

0:32:45.120 --> 0:32:47.600
<v Speaker 1>seventy two. I should know off that I'm getting old PJ.

0:32:48.040 --> 0:32:51.040
<v Speaker 1>But in any case, it standardized the eighteen whole round.

0:32:51.800 --> 0:32:56.320
<v Speaker 1>But before before that happened, before that became widely accepted,

0:32:56.440 --> 0:33:00.280
<v Speaker 1>you had seven whole golf courses, you had twelve whole

0:33:00.320 --> 0:33:04.680
<v Speaker 1>golf courses. People really were looking to fit a course

0:33:04.760 --> 0:33:09.040
<v Speaker 1>to the land rather than create an eighteen hole, par

0:33:09.200 --> 0:33:12.680
<v Speaker 1>seventy two golf course. And so there's some inspiration in

0:33:12.720 --> 0:33:15.560
<v Speaker 1>the deep past of golf. But you know, we've gotten

0:33:15.560 --> 0:33:20.120
<v Speaker 1>to the point with you know, USGA ratings and handicaps

0:33:20.160 --> 0:33:22.520
<v Speaker 1>that it's kind of hard to build a thirteen hole

0:33:22.560 --> 0:33:27.120
<v Speaker 1>golf course. But there is a little bit of wiggle room,

0:33:27.400 --> 0:33:31.240
<v Speaker 1>all right, So let's move on to the second half

0:33:31.400 --> 0:33:34.720
<v Speaker 1>of our episode. Here, I want to talk about how

0:33:34.760 --> 0:33:37.120
<v Speaker 1>you as a player can assess the routing of a

0:33:37.160 --> 0:33:39.760
<v Speaker 1>golf course. Now, this is this is really what's because

0:33:39.840 --> 0:33:43.000
<v Speaker 1>neither of us PJ probably is ever going to route

0:33:43.000 --> 0:33:45.200
<v Speaker 1>a golf course. I don't know. Maybe maybe we will.

0:33:45.480 --> 0:33:47.040
<v Speaker 1>We've got we've got a lot of life to.

0:33:47.040 --> 0:33:50.640
<v Speaker 3>Live, there's still time. I would call it unlikely. I

0:33:50.680 --> 0:33:53.200
<v Speaker 3>think you're more likely than me, But I don't know.

0:33:53.280 --> 0:33:55.520
<v Speaker 3>I could get on the sticks on two K and

0:33:55.600 --> 0:33:57.080
<v Speaker 3>see what happens too, I don't.

0:33:57.200 --> 0:33:59.280
<v Speaker 2>I haven't played around with that, but maybe I need

0:33:59.320 --> 0:33:59.840
<v Speaker 2>to after this.

0:34:00.440 --> 0:34:03.960
<v Speaker 1>That's very true. I've forgotten about virtual routing that that

0:34:04.640 --> 0:34:07.960
<v Speaker 1>is definitely a possibility for both of us. But in

0:34:07.960 --> 0:34:10.799
<v Speaker 1>any case, the most relevant thing to both of us

0:34:10.920 --> 0:34:13.520
<v Speaker 1>would be how do you play a golf course and

0:34:14.120 --> 0:34:18.000
<v Speaker 1>say whether it has a good routing or a poor routing?

0:34:18.360 --> 0:34:20.480
<v Speaker 1>And I don't think this is something that comes naturally

0:34:20.520 --> 0:34:24.520
<v Speaker 1>to most people, even even to people who are really

0:34:24.600 --> 0:34:29.520
<v Speaker 1>interested in golf architecture. Usually the quality of a routing

0:34:29.600 --> 0:34:33.520
<v Speaker 1>doesn't come up all that much, or you know, you know,

0:34:34.200 --> 0:34:39.680
<v Speaker 1>usually we're talking about whole design, strategic versus penal golf architecture,

0:34:39.760 --> 0:34:42.320
<v Speaker 1>or we're talking about green contouring or bunker shaping or

0:34:42.360 --> 0:34:45.319
<v Speaker 1>aesthetics or how good the land is. Those things are

0:34:45.360 --> 0:34:48.759
<v Speaker 1>easier to talk about, and I think the reason that

0:34:49.000 --> 0:34:51.480
<v Speaker 1>routing doesn't get talked about all that much from the

0:34:51.480 --> 0:34:56.080
<v Speaker 1>golfer's perspective is that it is hidden. It is subterranean,

0:34:56.160 --> 0:34:59.600
<v Speaker 1>so to speak. The golf course just goes where it goes,

0:34:59.719 --> 0:35:02.759
<v Speaker 1>and the player doesn't have a lot of visibility as

0:35:02.800 --> 0:35:06.520
<v Speaker 1>to where it could have gone instead. And furthermore, the

0:35:06.520 --> 0:35:09.360
<v Speaker 1>player really doesn't have any idea of the challenges or

0:35:09.400 --> 0:35:13.319
<v Speaker 1>the limitations that factored into the routing process. Maybe the

0:35:13.400 --> 0:35:16.000
<v Speaker 1>land didn't have that many natural green sites or fairway

0:35:16.080 --> 0:35:18.919
<v Speaker 1>landing zones. It's hard to tell when you just play

0:35:18.920 --> 0:35:24.000
<v Speaker 1>a golf course how much natural goodness was there for

0:35:24.080 --> 0:35:28.640
<v Speaker 1>the architect to work with. Maybe there were environmental regulations

0:35:29.000 --> 0:35:32.600
<v Speaker 1>that dictated where the holes could and couldn't go. Maybe

0:35:32.640 --> 0:35:34.960
<v Speaker 1>the golf course was just one part of a real

0:35:35.080 --> 0:35:39.000
<v Speaker 1>estate plan and the architect just had to accept the

0:35:39.080 --> 0:35:43.000
<v Speaker 1>land that he was given. These are things that we

0:35:43.239 --> 0:35:46.680
<v Speaker 1>just can't really know by playing a golf course, so

0:35:46.719 --> 0:35:49.680
<v Speaker 1>we have to be somewhat humble. I think when we're

0:35:49.719 --> 0:35:54.400
<v Speaker 1>talking about routing, because usually we don't know what we

0:35:54.480 --> 0:35:57.800
<v Speaker 1>don't know, and if there are problems in the routing,

0:35:57.840 --> 0:36:02.280
<v Speaker 1>the golf architect isn't necessarily to blame. At the same time,

0:36:03.239 --> 0:36:05.640
<v Speaker 1>our experience of the golf course is our experience of

0:36:05.640 --> 0:36:09.640
<v Speaker 1>the golf course, and if the routing seems bad, then

0:36:09.680 --> 0:36:13.000
<v Speaker 1>it's bad. Right. Maybe the golf architect isn't at fault,

0:36:13.440 --> 0:36:15.800
<v Speaker 1>But in the end, the course was built for the player,

0:36:16.320 --> 0:36:19.680
<v Speaker 1>and so it's fair for the player to offer an assessment.

0:36:20.040 --> 0:36:23.480
<v Speaker 1>That's kind of how I think about it. So with

0:36:23.520 --> 0:36:27.680
<v Speaker 1>all that said, I have five questions that you can

0:36:27.719 --> 0:36:32.040
<v Speaker 1>ask during your next round in order to evaluate the

0:36:32.160 --> 0:36:36.160
<v Speaker 1>routing of a golf course. These are just five specific

0:36:36.239 --> 0:36:38.920
<v Speaker 1>questions that you can ask of a golf course after

0:36:38.960 --> 0:36:42.800
<v Speaker 1>you've played it to see whether you think the routing

0:36:43.040 --> 0:36:48.759
<v Speaker 1>is effective fantastic. The first question, is there a variety

0:36:49.280 --> 0:36:56.399
<v Speaker 1>of good natural green sites. So greens can go on plateaus,

0:36:56.840 --> 0:37:00.440
<v Speaker 1>they can go in saddles, they can go on dolls

0:37:00.880 --> 0:37:04.839
<v Speaker 1>or punch bowls. They can be benched into a hillside

0:37:04.880 --> 0:37:09.440
<v Speaker 1>backwards or sideways. They can be on ground that tilts

0:37:09.600 --> 0:37:11.719
<v Speaker 1>to the left or tilts to the right. Or back

0:37:11.760 --> 0:37:15.400
<v Speaker 1>to front or front to back. They can have different

0:37:15.520 --> 0:37:20.200
<v Speaker 1>kinds of surrounding topographical features like creeks and ravines and

0:37:20.280 --> 0:37:25.359
<v Speaker 1>cliffs and rockout croppings and other natural hazards. So there

0:37:25.360 --> 0:37:29.399
<v Speaker 1>are all sorts of different places where greens can go,

0:37:30.360 --> 0:37:34.240
<v Speaker 1>and a good routing finds a variety of those places.

0:37:35.040 --> 0:37:37.200
<v Speaker 1>I think we've all played courses where the greens are

0:37:37.239 --> 0:37:40.920
<v Speaker 1>all kind of on the same type of landform, especially

0:37:41.239 --> 0:37:44.400
<v Speaker 1>you know, on the top of ridges, just on hilltops.

0:37:44.440 --> 0:37:47.600
<v Speaker 1>There are certain courses where you know, it plays from

0:37:47.600 --> 0:37:51.400
<v Speaker 1>a tee down through a valley and back up on

0:37:51.480 --> 0:37:54.600
<v Speaker 1>a hill, over and over and over again. This is

0:37:54.640 --> 0:37:59.839
<v Speaker 1>a flaw in routing because you want variety. Yes, those

0:38:00.400 --> 0:38:03.880
<v Speaker 1>greens are great, they drain well, they're often very attractive,

0:38:04.560 --> 0:38:07.680
<v Speaker 1>they just work well. But you don't want only that

0:38:08.120 --> 0:38:10.440
<v Speaker 1>in a round of golf. You also want greens on

0:38:10.600 --> 0:38:15.800
<v Speaker 1>lower pieces of land or just more varied pieces of land. Okay,

0:38:15.840 --> 0:38:18.840
<v Speaker 1>So that's the first question. Is there a variety of

0:38:18.960 --> 0:38:23.640
<v Speaker 1>good natural green sites. Related to that is question two,

0:38:23.840 --> 0:38:29.120
<v Speaker 1>which is do the holes have a variety of topographical profiles?

0:38:29.680 --> 0:38:32.719
<v Speaker 1>And what I mean by this is how do the

0:38:32.760 --> 0:38:36.920
<v Speaker 1>holes move across the land? What is the terrain doing

0:38:37.560 --> 0:38:41.480
<v Speaker 1>over the course of the entire hole. So holes can

0:38:41.520 --> 0:38:45.200
<v Speaker 1>move uphill, they can move downhill. You can have a

0:38:45.239 --> 0:38:48.080
<v Speaker 1>flat drive followed by an uphill approach. You can have

0:38:48.120 --> 0:38:50.200
<v Speaker 1>a flat drive followed by a downhill approach. You can

0:38:50.200 --> 0:38:53.120
<v Speaker 1>have an uphill drive followed by a flat approach, et cetera,

0:38:53.160 --> 0:38:56.440
<v Speaker 1>et cetera, all those permutations. You can play ridge to

0:38:56.560 --> 0:38:59.680
<v Speaker 1>ridge like I just described earlier. You can play up

0:38:59.719 --> 0:39:02.960
<v Speaker 1>and over from a low te to a high fairway

0:39:03.440 --> 0:39:08.319
<v Speaker 1>to a low green. You can play sidehill. You can

0:39:08.320 --> 0:39:11.440
<v Speaker 1>play side hill in reverse camber where the hole kind

0:39:11.480 --> 0:39:14.600
<v Speaker 1>of goes up against the slope, dog legs up against

0:39:14.640 --> 0:39:18.000
<v Speaker 1>the slope. You can play side hill in positive camber

0:39:18.520 --> 0:39:21.280
<v Speaker 1>where the whole kind of dog legs with the slope.

0:39:21.960 --> 0:39:24.960
<v Speaker 1>You can play straight across the side hill. You can

0:39:25.040 --> 0:39:30.200
<v Speaker 1>have undulating holes in various ways. And then within each

0:39:30.239 --> 0:39:32.759
<v Speaker 1>of those categories that I just named, you have a

0:39:32.760 --> 0:39:38.560
<v Speaker 1>lot of different scales and iterations. Right, So that's the

0:39:38.600 --> 0:39:41.719
<v Speaker 1>topographical profile of a hole. Does it make sense when

0:39:41.760 --> 0:39:44.640
<v Speaker 1>I talk about topographical profile of a golf hole.

0:39:45.760 --> 0:39:46.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I think you.

0:39:48.440 --> 0:39:54.160
<v Speaker 3>Not having any variety would be terrible, right, Like the

0:39:54.239 --> 0:39:58.240
<v Speaker 3>point if you're playing every hole flatter, everything goes uphill,

0:39:58.280 --> 0:40:00.840
<v Speaker 3>and you're just climbing, climbing, climbing the whole time, Like,

0:40:01.480 --> 0:40:03.800
<v Speaker 3>I don't know what the fun is in having to

0:40:03.880 --> 0:40:07.319
<v Speaker 3>hit different shots and what is presented to you. So

0:40:07.360 --> 0:40:10.080
<v Speaker 3>I feel like that, at least to me, of the

0:40:10.120 --> 0:40:13.320
<v Speaker 3>two questions so far, that one is an easier answer

0:40:13.640 --> 0:40:15.680
<v Speaker 3>than the first one that I would be able to

0:40:17.120 --> 0:40:19.640
<v Speaker 3>actively figure out as things are going, because I know

0:40:19.680 --> 0:40:20.960
<v Speaker 3>a direction I'm going.

0:40:21.239 --> 0:40:24.200
<v Speaker 1>Yes, And it's a little bit hard to you know,

0:40:24.440 --> 0:40:27.920
<v Speaker 1>answer the first question. You know, what are the green sites?

0:40:27.960 --> 0:40:30.000
<v Speaker 1>What are the natural features of the green sites? Because

0:40:30.000 --> 0:40:34.120
<v Speaker 1>greens are often so built that whatever the natural terrain

0:40:34.360 --> 0:40:38.759
<v Speaker 1>was previously might be a little bit concealed because the

0:40:38.800 --> 0:40:41.680
<v Speaker 1>green was just constructed up from a piece of land.

0:40:42.600 --> 0:40:45.160
<v Speaker 1>But as you see more courses, as you see more greens,

0:40:45.200 --> 0:40:47.160
<v Speaker 1>you start to be able to tell, you know, look

0:40:47.160 --> 0:40:50.080
<v Speaker 1>at the land in general around the green and kind

0:40:50.160 --> 0:40:54.360
<v Speaker 1>of discern what it was. And in both of those questions,

0:40:54.520 --> 0:40:57.920
<v Speaker 1>the topographical profiles of the holes and the natural green sites,

0:40:58.920 --> 0:41:02.360
<v Speaker 1>what you're looking for is variety. You're looking for things

0:41:02.400 --> 0:41:04.560
<v Speaker 1>to be changed up from hole to hole during the

0:41:04.640 --> 0:41:07.960
<v Speaker 1>round because that allows us to. That keeps things fresh,

0:41:08.040 --> 0:41:11.360
<v Speaker 1>that creates excitement and interest during the round of golf.

0:41:11.400 --> 0:41:15.080
<v Speaker 1>It helps you remember the round of golf, It tests

0:41:15.239 --> 0:41:20.479
<v Speaker 1>different shots. Variety is really the thing that a good

0:41:20.560 --> 0:41:24.360
<v Speaker 1>routing generates, and variety is one of the most important

0:41:24.840 --> 0:41:27.680
<v Speaker 1>aspects of a good golf course. So right there, you

0:41:27.719 --> 0:41:32.640
<v Speaker 1>see the importance of routing. But yeah, I mean, you know,

0:41:32.680 --> 0:41:35.480
<v Speaker 1>a clear flaw that some courses have is that they

0:41:35.760 --> 0:41:39.560
<v Speaker 1>kind of you know, the whole sort of move the

0:41:39.600 --> 0:41:43.319
<v Speaker 1>same way or you know, most commonly, what I see

0:41:43.520 --> 0:41:48.120
<v Speaker 1>is that very rarely do certain courses play along a

0:41:48.200 --> 0:41:52.799
<v Speaker 1>side hill. Right That's kind of a common flaw that

0:41:52.840 --> 0:41:56.040
<v Speaker 1>I see where the architect didn't really take advantage of

0:41:56.200 --> 0:42:00.960
<v Speaker 1>opportunities to have holes running along a tilt, because that

0:42:01.000 --> 0:42:04.120
<v Speaker 1>can create some really interesting golf trying to hold the

0:42:04.200 --> 0:42:08.160
<v Speaker 1>high side of the fairway to get an advantage, curving

0:42:08.160 --> 0:42:11.279
<v Speaker 1>the ball into the slope to try to hold that there.

0:42:11.960 --> 0:42:17.000
<v Speaker 1>Sidehill holes can be so interesting, but often architects disregard

0:42:17.040 --> 0:42:20.160
<v Speaker 1>them because they're focusing on the ridge to ridge hole,

0:42:20.360 --> 0:42:23.640
<v Speaker 1>or the uphill hole or the downhill hole. I think

0:42:23.680 --> 0:42:27.640
<v Speaker 1>having that extra element of the side hill hole is

0:42:27.719 --> 0:42:32.680
<v Speaker 1>really an indicator of a quality routing. All right, moving

0:42:32.719 --> 0:42:36.680
<v Speaker 1>on to the third question, does the course engage directly

0:42:37.480 --> 0:42:44.480
<v Speaker 1>with interesting natural features without overdoing it. Some courses, to

0:42:44.600 --> 0:42:47.400
<v Speaker 1>my eye, seem to go out of their way to

0:42:47.640 --> 0:42:53.839
<v Speaker 1>avoid the property's most compelling natural features, so you can

0:42:53.960 --> 0:42:58.000
<v Speaker 1>look at them, but you aren't playing over them, and

0:42:58.080 --> 0:43:01.840
<v Speaker 1>to me, this is really dissatisfying. Now, by the same token,

0:43:02.160 --> 0:43:05.120
<v Speaker 1>some courses are too direct in their approach to severe

0:43:05.239 --> 0:43:09.239
<v Speaker 1>topography and end up having too many blind shots and

0:43:10.160 --> 0:43:13.719
<v Speaker 1>just end up being exhausting to play. As you know,

0:43:13.920 --> 0:43:16.040
<v Speaker 1>I'm okay with the occasional blind shot, but if it's

0:43:16.080 --> 0:43:19.640
<v Speaker 1>whole after whole after hole, that's an indication of a

0:43:19.680 --> 0:43:22.400
<v Speaker 1>flawed routing. That's an indication that the holes are moving

0:43:22.440 --> 0:43:26.440
<v Speaker 1>too directly over the most severe topography. So that's a

0:43:26.520 --> 0:43:31.920
<v Speaker 1>routing flaw as well. Well routed courses incorporate the property's

0:43:32.000 --> 0:43:35.680
<v Speaker 1>best natural assets while also having a sense of when

0:43:35.800 --> 0:43:42.239
<v Speaker 1>to use quieter land. There's a happy medium there somewhere. Now.

0:43:43.520 --> 0:43:47.760
<v Speaker 1>A giveaway of a flaw when it comes to asking

0:43:47.800 --> 0:43:51.440
<v Speaker 1>this question of a golf course is when the holes

0:43:51.480 --> 0:43:55.520
<v Speaker 1>are always just kind of moving through valleys, when they're

0:43:55.560 --> 0:43:57.759
<v Speaker 1>always just kind of on the flatter land at the

0:43:57.800 --> 0:44:02.200
<v Speaker 1>bottom of a valley, and you're instantly passing by the

0:44:02.320 --> 0:44:06.319
<v Speaker 1>ridges or the knolls instead of playing into them or

0:44:06.320 --> 0:44:10.480
<v Speaker 1>playing over them or doing something interesting with them. Often

0:44:10.520 --> 0:44:12.960
<v Speaker 1>the easiest thing to do in routing a golf course

0:44:13.000 --> 0:44:17.040
<v Speaker 1>is just to avoid the severe places, but that can

0:44:17.080 --> 0:44:21.640
<v Speaker 1>also make the golf course kind of boring. Question four.

0:44:23.520 --> 0:44:28.239
<v Speaker 1>Is there a well sequenced balance of whole types? And

0:44:28.320 --> 0:44:35.799
<v Speaker 1>a wholes type can be defined by par length, difficulty direction, right,

0:44:36.840 --> 0:44:38.960
<v Speaker 1>So this is we're starting to.

0:44:38.120 --> 0:44:41.719
<v Speaker 2>Let this one stands out to me.

0:44:44.800 --> 0:44:47.680
<v Speaker 3>I mean, it's a terrible example because this is like

0:44:47.840 --> 0:44:51.319
<v Speaker 3>not the golf courses that we discussed on this this

0:44:51.520 --> 0:44:53.319
<v Speaker 3>wonderful podcast about we talk.

0:44:53.280 --> 0:44:55.960
<v Speaker 1>We talk about any golf courses here, any golf courses.

0:44:56.239 --> 0:45:01.479
<v Speaker 3>Drumlin's Country Club in Syracuse, New York, where I've played

0:45:01.520 --> 0:45:03.879
<v Speaker 3>more golf probably than I will ever play at any

0:45:03.920 --> 0:45:06.399
<v Speaker 3>place in my entire life, because I would just play

0:45:06.400 --> 0:45:09.000
<v Speaker 3>every day. You get to the top of this hill

0:45:09.120 --> 0:45:19.239
<v Speaker 3>to start the back nine, and holes nine ten or nine, eleven, thirteen, fourteen,

0:45:20.000 --> 0:45:23.919
<v Speaker 3>and sixteen are practically all the same hole.

0:45:24.160 --> 0:45:26.000
<v Speaker 2>They are just like straight.

0:45:27.440 --> 0:45:31.600
<v Speaker 3>I'll put a hill somehow in both directions and it's

0:45:31.719 --> 0:45:35.160
<v Speaker 3>just straight and there's one tree on the top of

0:45:35.160 --> 0:45:38.120
<v Speaker 3>this hill that basically shares like all of these holes,

0:45:38.400 --> 0:45:41.759
<v Speaker 3>and it is the most repetitive thing, and like it's

0:45:41.760 --> 0:45:44.839
<v Speaker 3>wide open, so you can play across the holes and.

0:45:44.760 --> 0:45:47.160
<v Speaker 2>It's like total it's insane.

0:45:47.400 --> 0:45:51.359
<v Speaker 3>And I, by the end of playing there for four

0:45:51.440 --> 0:45:55.200
<v Speaker 3>years as much as I could, you start to play

0:45:55.200 --> 0:45:57.200
<v Speaker 3>other golf courses and you go, oh, it's not supposed

0:45:57.200 --> 0:45:57.719
<v Speaker 3>to be like this.

0:46:00.120 --> 0:46:03.600
<v Speaker 1>Have to be this way. Yeah, yeah. Often we realize

0:46:03.640 --> 0:46:06.320
<v Speaker 1>that about the courses that we play when we're younger.

0:46:06.400 --> 0:46:09.120
<v Speaker 1>I certainly, Yeah, you come to think that certain things

0:46:09.160 --> 0:46:13.560
<v Speaker 1>are normal, but then you play another course and you're like, oh, yeah, okay, yes,

0:46:14.080 --> 0:46:18.040
<v Speaker 1>that is what you're describing is a routing flaw that

0:46:18.160 --> 0:46:22.880
<v Speaker 1>is a fault in the routing process of the design.

0:46:23.120 --> 0:46:26.719
<v Speaker 1>So that's a great example, and it's not necessarily a

0:46:26.760 --> 0:46:31.160
<v Speaker 1>problem that across the round you might have holes that

0:46:31.239 --> 0:46:34.439
<v Speaker 1>are this way. The problem is is that they're all

0:46:34.480 --> 0:46:37.600
<v Speaker 1>back to back to back, right. The problem is that

0:46:37.640 --> 0:46:41.040
<v Speaker 1>they're not spread out. So that's a sequencing issue, and

0:46:41.080 --> 0:46:43.640
<v Speaker 1>that's what we're getting into right now with these kind

0:46:43.640 --> 0:46:46.400
<v Speaker 1>of last three questions that we're asking about the routing

0:46:46.440 --> 0:46:50.160
<v Speaker 1>of the golf course. The first three are talking about

0:46:50.200 --> 0:46:53.040
<v Speaker 1>the location of the holes, the sighting of the holes.

0:46:53.440 --> 0:46:55.879
<v Speaker 1>Is there a variety of good natural green sites, Do

0:46:55.920 --> 0:46:58.799
<v Speaker 1>the holes have a variety of topographical profiles? Does the

0:46:58.840 --> 0:47:03.439
<v Speaker 1>course engage directly interesting natural features without overdoing it? Those

0:47:03.520 --> 0:47:06.560
<v Speaker 1>questions relate to where the architect put the holes. It's

0:47:06.600 --> 0:47:08.600
<v Speaker 1>in you know, those are in the part of the

0:47:08.640 --> 0:47:11.879
<v Speaker 1>process where the architect is maybe looking at the topographical

0:47:11.920 --> 0:47:16.400
<v Speaker 1>map or walking the site and identifying good natural features

0:47:16.440 --> 0:47:20.560
<v Speaker 1>to try to maximize this fourth question here, is there

0:47:20.560 --> 0:47:23.799
<v Speaker 1>a well sequenced balance of hole types? Has to do

0:47:23.880 --> 0:47:27.319
<v Speaker 1>with putting all those holes together and the order in

0:47:27.400 --> 0:47:31.359
<v Speaker 1>which they appear in the round. So, in addition to

0:47:31.520 --> 0:47:34.880
<v Speaker 1>what you're talking about, which is a you know, how

0:47:35.440 --> 0:47:39.960
<v Speaker 1>how holes use the land, whole type can also pertain

0:47:40.080 --> 0:47:44.200
<v Speaker 1>to par three's, par fours and par fives. You don't

0:47:44.239 --> 0:47:46.279
<v Speaker 1>want four par threes in a row. You don't want

0:47:46.320 --> 0:47:48.400
<v Speaker 1>four par fives in a row. You want them spread

0:47:48.400 --> 0:47:52.799
<v Speaker 1>out throughout the round. A balance of long holes and

0:47:52.840 --> 0:47:55.960
<v Speaker 1>short holes, the balance of difficult holes and easy holes. Again,

0:47:56.120 --> 0:48:01.040
<v Speaker 1>it's okay to have five long holes in relation to

0:48:01.080 --> 0:48:03.759
<v Speaker 1>par over the course of a round. You just don't

0:48:03.800 --> 0:48:07.040
<v Speaker 1>want them all in the same place in the round.

0:48:08.000 --> 0:48:11.240
<v Speaker 1>You want a balance of straight holes and dog legs

0:48:11.280 --> 0:48:13.680
<v Speaker 1>left and dog legs right. You want maybe a few

0:48:13.800 --> 0:48:17.280
<v Speaker 1>zigzag holes that move both directions. You want a balance

0:48:17.320 --> 0:48:21.319
<v Speaker 1>of into the wind holes down wind holes, holes where

0:48:21.360 --> 0:48:23.680
<v Speaker 1>the wind is coming in off the right or off

0:48:23.719 --> 0:48:27.000
<v Speaker 1>the left, or holes where the wind is quartering. This

0:48:27.160 --> 0:48:30.799
<v Speaker 1>is also a very common flaw in poorly routed golf

0:48:30.840 --> 0:48:34.200
<v Speaker 1>courses where the holes are all kind of sitting along

0:48:34.840 --> 0:48:39.160
<v Speaker 1>to axes right, either either going one direction or going

0:48:39.160 --> 0:48:42.560
<v Speaker 1>the opposite direction, and kind of packed in like sardines

0:48:42.600 --> 0:48:46.279
<v Speaker 1>on the property. That can be a very easy way

0:48:46.320 --> 0:48:48.319
<v Speaker 1>to rout a golf course because you're packing a lot

0:48:48.400 --> 0:48:51.839
<v Speaker 1>of holes into the property. But the problem is that,

0:48:52.719 --> 0:48:55.879
<v Speaker 1>in relation to whatever the wind is that day, you're

0:48:55.920 --> 0:48:58.799
<v Speaker 1>facing the same kind of shot over and over and

0:48:58.840 --> 0:49:02.000
<v Speaker 1>over and over. Like you're you're looking at the sun

0:49:02.200 --> 0:49:05.279
<v Speaker 1>in certain ways. So say the sun is setting and

0:49:05.440 --> 0:49:07.719
<v Speaker 1>a lot of the holes point at the sun, then

0:49:07.880 --> 0:49:09.719
<v Speaker 1>then you're having Then you're having a hard time. So

0:49:09.760 --> 0:49:13.000
<v Speaker 1>there are many reasons that you want holes moving in

0:49:13.160 --> 0:49:16.440
<v Speaker 1>all sorts of different directions. Now, you just played TPC

0:49:16.560 --> 0:49:21.520
<v Speaker 1>sawgrass the Stadium course. To me, the most exceptional thing

0:49:21.560 --> 0:49:27.480
<v Speaker 1>about TPC sawgrass is routing is its balance and variety

0:49:27.840 --> 0:49:33.280
<v Speaker 1>in whole types difficult holes, long holes, holes traveling different directions.

0:49:33.320 --> 0:49:35.480
<v Speaker 1>Something that Pete die always did is he had his

0:49:35.600 --> 0:49:37.560
<v Speaker 1>par fours are almost always did is he had his

0:49:37.600 --> 0:49:42.319
<v Speaker 1>par fours pointing in four different directions, and that I

0:49:42.360 --> 0:49:44.480
<v Speaker 1>believe is the case of TPC Sagrass. So if you

0:49:44.560 --> 0:49:48.520
<v Speaker 1>have a certain wind on a certain day, then those

0:49:48.600 --> 0:49:53.560
<v Speaker 1>par threes are going to be relating to the wind differently.

0:49:54.840 --> 0:49:58.279
<v Speaker 1>And also there there's a short par three there, and

0:49:58.360 --> 0:50:01.080
<v Speaker 1>there's a very long part three, and then there are

0:50:01.080 --> 0:50:02.759
<v Speaker 1>a couple of par threes that are maybe somewhere in

0:50:02.800 --> 0:50:07.040
<v Speaker 1>the middle. So that balance and variety of par three

0:50:07.160 --> 0:50:11.520
<v Speaker 1>holes is a signature of Pete Dye's design and something

0:50:11.520 --> 0:50:14.319
<v Speaker 1>that he really thought about when he was designing a

0:50:14.320 --> 0:50:16.120
<v Speaker 1>golf course. Is this something that you picked up on

0:50:16.160 --> 0:50:18.120
<v Speaker 1>as you were playing the course, this kind of balance

0:50:18.160 --> 0:50:19.600
<v Speaker 1>of different types of holes.

0:50:20.080 --> 0:50:23.400
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, definitely, And I mean especially after like walking it

0:50:23.520 --> 0:50:26.680
<v Speaker 3>all week for the players and then actually getting to

0:50:27.000 --> 0:50:29.520
<v Speaker 3>play it, I definitely had a new found appreciation.

0:50:29.760 --> 0:50:32.480
<v Speaker 2>Like my favorite hole is to watch.

0:50:33.400 --> 0:50:35.720
<v Speaker 3>I think I was biased ended up being my favorite

0:50:35.719 --> 0:50:36.760
<v Speaker 3>holes to play as well.

0:50:36.600 --> 0:50:39.000
<v Speaker 2>Because I was just most excited to play those.

0:50:39.080 --> 0:50:43.120
<v Speaker 3>But I feel like everything was just sequenced so well,

0:50:43.680 --> 0:50:47.040
<v Speaker 3>and it definitely helped that I was like overly familiar

0:50:47.120 --> 0:50:49.160
<v Speaker 3>with the golf course, and I knew what every hole

0:50:49.360 --> 0:50:51.640
<v Speaker 3>was and I knew what was coming next. But I

0:50:51.640 --> 0:50:55.319
<v Speaker 3>think like, as you're going through and playing it, like

0:50:56.080 --> 0:51:00.200
<v Speaker 3>you know you're gonna get beat up on, like you know,

0:51:00.960 --> 0:51:04.080
<v Speaker 3>nine and ten, and then you get a little bit

0:51:04.080 --> 0:51:06.440
<v Speaker 3>of a lull on twelve and thirteen might be a

0:51:06.480 --> 0:51:08.759
<v Speaker 3>little bit easier, and then fourteen is going to punch

0:51:08.800 --> 0:51:11.520
<v Speaker 3>you in the face again. And it's a good little

0:51:11.560 --> 0:51:15.319
<v Speaker 3>like there's he puts the pedal down and then he

0:51:15.560 --> 0:51:18.360
<v Speaker 3>relaxes it for two holes, and then you you maybe

0:51:18.560 --> 0:51:20.640
<v Speaker 3>go up a little bit, and then by the time

0:51:20.640 --> 0:51:23.760
<v Speaker 3>you get to sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, everything is just full

0:51:23.960 --> 0:51:27.760
<v Speaker 3>gas pedals through the floor. And I really appreciated that

0:51:27.760 --> 0:51:31.400
<v Speaker 3>that it felt like, you know, every time that you

0:51:31.520 --> 0:51:35.360
<v Speaker 3>had a hole that was overly difficult, there was always

0:51:35.480 --> 0:51:37.560
<v Speaker 3>like kind of a reprieve around the corner.

0:51:37.960 --> 0:51:43.840
<v Speaker 1>Yes, yeah, And that is a testament to Die's ability

0:51:43.880 --> 0:51:50.040
<v Speaker 1>to sequence holes, to link holes together into balanced, flowing,

0:51:50.760 --> 0:51:54.520
<v Speaker 1>varied sequences. He was so good at that. Now, a

0:51:54.520 --> 0:51:57.400
<v Speaker 1>lot of what we've discussed in this episode maximizing natural

0:51:57.440 --> 0:52:02.240
<v Speaker 1>features is not really pertinent to most of Pete Die's designs,

0:52:02.239 --> 0:52:04.960
<v Speaker 1>because he was often building golf courses on swamps and

0:52:06.120 --> 0:52:08.919
<v Speaker 1>deserts and sites that didn't have much to offer. Now,

0:52:09.360 --> 0:52:12.520
<v Speaker 1>when his sites did have some natural features to maximize,

0:52:12.560 --> 0:52:16.600
<v Speaker 1>he generally did a good job of going after them.

0:52:17.040 --> 0:52:20.680
<v Speaker 1>But a lot of what he did with routing that

0:52:20.840 --> 0:52:25.560
<v Speaker 1>was really good was create sequences of holes that had

0:52:25.800 --> 0:52:28.960
<v Speaker 1>variety within them. Yes, he would always give you a

0:52:29.040 --> 0:52:32.200
<v Speaker 1>kind of reprieve after a very difficult hole. You'd just

0:52:32.239 --> 0:52:35.880
<v Speaker 1>consider the closing stretch. Right, Fifteen is an incredibly hard hole,

0:52:36.440 --> 0:52:41.840
<v Speaker 1>sixteen is an opportunity, seventeen is scary but scorable, and

0:52:41.880 --> 0:52:45.319
<v Speaker 1>then eighteen is very difficult. So you know, right there

0:52:45.640 --> 0:52:49.200
<v Speaker 1>you have in terms of just difficulty, you have such

0:52:49.200 --> 0:52:51.240
<v Speaker 1>a variety of holes there. And then you can also

0:52:51.320 --> 0:52:55.520
<v Speaker 1>talk about just in that sequence, you know, how many

0:52:55.680 --> 0:53:00.239
<v Speaker 1>different variations of a golf hole are explored, with the

0:53:00.239 --> 0:53:04.440
<v Speaker 1>way the holes kind of turn or the direction that

0:53:04.480 --> 0:53:08.960
<v Speaker 1>they travel, or you know, et cetera, et cetera. Variety

0:53:09.040 --> 0:53:12.000
<v Speaker 1>is really Pete Die's specialty and something that comes out

0:53:12.040 --> 0:53:16.759
<v Speaker 1>in its golf courses consistently. All right, Fifth question, are

0:53:16.800 --> 0:53:20.440
<v Speaker 1>the green to tea transitions short enough to walk comfortably?

0:53:21.200 --> 0:53:24.280
<v Speaker 1>And if they're not short, are they at least interesting?

0:53:25.040 --> 0:53:28.200
<v Speaker 1>So I think one key to a good green to

0:53:28.239 --> 0:53:31.640
<v Speaker 1>tea transition is that it moves you forward to a

0:53:31.680 --> 0:53:35.360
<v Speaker 1>new part of the property. In those cases, the transition

0:53:35.560 --> 0:53:39.560
<v Speaker 1>can be kind of long and still be enjoyable. But

0:53:39.760 --> 0:53:43.640
<v Speaker 1>if the green to tea transition takes you backwards over

0:53:43.760 --> 0:53:47.560
<v Speaker 1>land that you've just seen or played over, then it

0:53:47.600 --> 0:53:51.279
<v Speaker 1>is less enjoyable. Then it feels like an interruption that

0:53:51.360 --> 0:53:54.239
<v Speaker 1>takes you out of the flow of the round. So

0:53:54.320 --> 0:53:56.759
<v Speaker 1>I think the key with green to tea transitions is yes,

0:53:56.840 --> 0:53:59.680
<v Speaker 1>they should be They should be short. They really should be,

0:53:59.680 --> 0:54:02.880
<v Speaker 1>because otherwise the course becomes hard to walk, pace of

0:54:02.960 --> 0:54:06.480
<v Speaker 1>place suffers, and you start forcing people to use carts,

0:54:06.760 --> 0:54:09.239
<v Speaker 1>which is a big bugaboo of mine. I just don't

0:54:09.280 --> 0:54:13.240
<v Speaker 1>think a golf course can be great and also only

0:54:13.320 --> 0:54:16.720
<v Speaker 1>be navigated with a golf cart, because I think walking

0:54:16.800 --> 0:54:18.839
<v Speaker 1>is that the soul of the game. But a lot

0:54:18.840 --> 0:54:21.560
<v Speaker 1>of people are less radical on that issue than I am.

0:54:21.880 --> 0:54:25.400
<v Speaker 1>But the key thing really is that the green to

0:54:25.480 --> 0:54:28.640
<v Speaker 1>tea transition doesn't take you out of the round. It

0:54:28.680 --> 0:54:31.880
<v Speaker 1>doesn't cause you to lose your focus on the experience

0:54:32.000 --> 0:54:34.640
<v Speaker 1>or the golf course. And a poor green to tea

0:54:34.680 --> 0:54:38.319
<v Speaker 1>transition can do exactly that. It takes you out of it.

0:54:38.400 --> 0:54:40.640
<v Speaker 1>You stop thinking about the course, you stop thinking about

0:54:40.640 --> 0:54:43.839
<v Speaker 1>the land, you start thinking about the golf and you're

0:54:43.840 --> 0:54:45.839
<v Speaker 1>just kind of frustrated. Okay, now where do I have

0:54:45.920 --> 0:54:48.239
<v Speaker 1>to go? I have to walk backwards to get to

0:54:48.280 --> 0:54:50.120
<v Speaker 1>this next tea. That doesn't feel good.

0:54:50.320 --> 0:54:53.680
<v Speaker 3>You always want to, at least mentally for me, I

0:54:53.719 --> 0:54:57.719
<v Speaker 3>feel like you always want the illusion of moving forward, right,

0:54:57.920 --> 0:55:01.960
<v Speaker 3>Just yeah, move keep going in the direction that you

0:55:01.960 --> 0:55:04.920
<v Speaker 3>think you're going to be going, not having to walk back.

0:55:05.040 --> 0:55:07.879
<v Speaker 3>Especially if you're like me and you know you put

0:55:07.960 --> 0:55:09.319
<v Speaker 3>up a big number on a hole and then you've

0:55:09.320 --> 0:55:09.600
<v Speaker 3>got to.

0:55:09.560 --> 0:55:13.440
<v Speaker 2>Walk past it to move on, it's not as fun.

0:55:13.840 --> 0:55:17.239
<v Speaker 1>You always want to feel like you're discovering something new. Yeah, So,

0:55:17.400 --> 0:55:20.839
<v Speaker 1>in that sense, a lengthy green to tea transition can

0:55:20.920 --> 0:55:23.319
<v Speaker 1>sometimes be If it's like a well designed green to

0:55:23.360 --> 0:55:26.640
<v Speaker 1>tea transition, it can be kind of pleasurable. And my

0:55:26.760 --> 0:55:30.879
<v Speaker 1>favorite example of this is bandon trails, where there are

0:55:30.920 --> 0:55:34.440
<v Speaker 1>a lot of long green to tea transitions, but you

0:55:34.480 --> 0:55:38.759
<v Speaker 1>can see that the architects put effort into the transitions themselves.

0:55:39.200 --> 0:55:42.319
<v Speaker 1>The paths are really interesting between the holes, and they're

0:55:42.360 --> 0:55:47.000
<v Speaker 1>always moving you to something new. They're always revealing something

0:55:47.000 --> 0:55:50.160
<v Speaker 1>to you. So you're okay with walking a long way

0:55:50.160 --> 0:55:53.840
<v Speaker 1>between holes because it's part of the pleasure of the round.

0:55:54.560 --> 0:55:57.839
<v Speaker 1>So when the green to tea transitions are long, they

0:55:57.840 --> 0:55:59.920
<v Speaker 1>should at least be moving you forward, moving you to

0:56:00.120 --> 0:56:03.160
<v Speaker 1>something new. But usually I would say that a sign

0:56:03.239 --> 0:56:05.200
<v Speaker 1>of a good routing is that the green to tea

0:56:05.239 --> 0:56:08.160
<v Speaker 1>transitions are short and very manageable. You're walking off the

0:56:08.200 --> 0:56:12.880
<v Speaker 1>green and onto the next tee pretty quickly. Final question.

0:56:13.280 --> 0:56:16.759
<v Speaker 1>Sixth and final question, and this one is kind of

0:56:17.239 --> 0:56:21.960
<v Speaker 1>kind of funky. Does the routing have a sense of story?

0:56:22.920 --> 0:56:26.080
<v Speaker 1>Does it have a sense of narrative to it? Is

0:56:26.120 --> 0:56:30.879
<v Speaker 1>there rising and falling action? Is there a culmination in

0:56:31.000 --> 0:56:37.040
<v Speaker 1>an exciting finish? So I think the best routings don't

0:56:37.080 --> 0:56:39.759
<v Speaker 1>just pack all of the excitement into one part of

0:56:39.800 --> 0:56:43.960
<v Speaker 1>the round, especially not in the beginning part of the round.

0:56:44.880 --> 0:56:49.560
<v Speaker 1>They distribute the high points throughout and then save some

0:56:49.600 --> 0:56:53.600
<v Speaker 1>sort of big flourish for toward the end of the round.

0:56:54.880 --> 0:56:58.880
<v Speaker 1>One of the great examples of routings that have that

0:56:59.040 --> 0:57:03.719
<v Speaker 1>tell different story and are more or less effective is

0:57:03.800 --> 0:57:07.359
<v Speaker 1>the kind of three famous courses along seventeen mile drive

0:57:07.400 --> 0:57:11.960
<v Speaker 1>in Pebble Beach, Spyglass Hill, Cypress Point and Pebble Beach.

0:57:12.920 --> 0:57:15.960
<v Speaker 1>Spyglass Hill. Starts off with a bang. It takes you

0:57:16.080 --> 0:57:20.320
<v Speaker 1>downhill spectacular first hole takes you plunging toward the ocean

0:57:20.680 --> 0:57:23.720
<v Speaker 1>and into the dunes, and for the next few holes

0:57:23.760 --> 0:57:26.840
<v Speaker 1>you're playing in the dunes. But then you climb back

0:57:26.920 --> 0:57:29.160
<v Speaker 1>up into the forest and you spend the rest of

0:57:29.240 --> 0:57:33.160
<v Speaker 1>the round up in the forest, and it's beautiful up there.

0:57:33.200 --> 0:57:36.440
<v Speaker 1>But you're like, wait, am I done with the dunes?

0:57:36.840 --> 0:57:39.760
<v Speaker 1>Like are we really Is that really it? We're just

0:57:39.800 --> 0:57:41.240
<v Speaker 1>going to visit them once at the beginning of the

0:57:41.280 --> 0:57:42.560
<v Speaker 1>round and we're going to spend the rest of the

0:57:42.640 --> 0:57:47.080
<v Speaker 1>round up here. That's a little disappointing. Pebble Beach, on

0:57:47.120 --> 0:57:51.000
<v Speaker 1>the other hand, you start inland and you make your

0:57:51.000 --> 0:57:54.040
<v Speaker 1>way out to the coast. You're on the coast from

0:57:54.080 --> 0:57:58.360
<v Speaker 1>hole four to hole ten. Then you go back inland,

0:57:59.120 --> 0:58:02.960
<v Speaker 1>wind back and a figure eight motion and you get

0:58:03.000 --> 0:58:06.520
<v Speaker 1>back out to the coast on seventeen and eighteen. So

0:58:06.560 --> 0:58:08.560
<v Speaker 1>you've got that high point in the middle of the round,

0:58:08.640 --> 0:58:12.320
<v Speaker 1>spectacular holes along the coast, and then you come back

0:58:13.000 --> 0:58:17.960
<v Speaker 1>to the ocean for the grand finale. Cyprus Point is

0:58:17.960 --> 0:58:21.120
<v Speaker 1>a little more complex, but also has a sense of narrative,

0:58:21.160 --> 0:58:23.240
<v Speaker 1>a sense of story. You go into the forest and

0:58:23.280 --> 0:58:26.640
<v Speaker 1>back out to the dunes, into the forest, back out

0:58:26.680 --> 0:58:29.360
<v Speaker 1>into the dunes, and then finally you make your way

0:58:29.360 --> 0:58:34.240
<v Speaker 1>out to the coast for fifteen, sixteen and seventeen, and

0:58:34.280 --> 0:58:37.040
<v Speaker 1>then there's some falling action at the end where you

0:58:37.120 --> 0:58:40.480
<v Speaker 1>climb back up through the forest to the clubhouse. That

0:58:41.080 --> 0:58:44.160
<v Speaker 1>is sense of story, That is sense of narrative in

0:58:44.200 --> 0:58:46.959
<v Speaker 1>a golf round right there. And it's different from Pebble Beach,

0:58:47.760 --> 0:58:51.120
<v Speaker 1>but you have a feeling of a full structured round

0:58:51.880 --> 0:58:55.120
<v Speaker 1>in a way that you kind of don't at Spyglass Hill.

0:58:55.240 --> 0:58:58.640
<v Speaker 1>So does this makes sense as a concept, a sense

0:58:58.640 --> 0:58:59.560
<v Speaker 1>of narrative and a.

0:58:59.560 --> 0:59:04.640
<v Speaker 3>Round of gold, Yeah, I think so. I think it's

0:59:04.640 --> 0:59:10.120
<v Speaker 3>something I think it might be easier to look at, well,

0:59:10.480 --> 0:59:13.680
<v Speaker 3>like after you play rather than while you're playing, because

0:59:13.680 --> 0:59:17.400
<v Speaker 3>you're not so worried about you know, actually hitting the

0:59:17.440 --> 0:59:21.080
<v Speaker 3>shots and the action of doing but I think it's

0:59:21.120 --> 0:59:26.320
<v Speaker 3>easier to look back on and see how you can

0:59:26.480 --> 0:59:30.760
<v Speaker 3>see your own rises and falls throughout the round and

0:59:31.120 --> 0:59:34.840
<v Speaker 3>what the course kind of provided to make that happen

0:59:34.920 --> 0:59:35.280
<v Speaker 3>for you.

0:59:35.880 --> 0:59:40.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I mean, good stories are not just one

0:59:40.800 --> 0:59:45.960
<v Speaker 1>high point after another that becomes exhausting. Good stories have

0:59:46.040 --> 0:59:49.000
<v Speaker 1>a sense of when to go big and when to

0:59:49.080 --> 0:59:52.800
<v Speaker 1>go subtle, and how to save some of the most

0:59:52.800 --> 0:59:57.040
<v Speaker 1>interesting stuff. The big action scene or the big reunion

0:59:57.120 --> 1:00:00.040
<v Speaker 1>between the happy couple. You know, you don't want that

1:00:00.080 --> 1:00:03.200
<v Speaker 1>to happen a third of the way through the movie.

1:00:03.600 --> 1:00:05.640
<v Speaker 1>You want that to happen toward the end. Maybe not

1:00:05.760 --> 1:00:09.760
<v Speaker 1>exactly at the end, but but but in the closing

1:00:09.840 --> 1:00:14.840
<v Speaker 1>stretch of the film. And a really good routing has

1:00:14.880 --> 1:00:19.640
<v Speaker 1>a feeling of that timing. It's different at every golf course,

1:00:20.280 --> 1:00:24.000
<v Speaker 1>but it's certainly something that sets the really great courses apart.

1:00:24.880 --> 1:00:28.640
<v Speaker 1>And again going back to TPC Sagras, there's clearly a

1:00:28.680 --> 1:00:33.520
<v Speaker 1>big finale at TPC Sagras. Die had a sense of drama,

1:00:33.640 --> 1:00:37.400
<v Speaker 1>a sense of narrative in the course of that round,

1:00:38.040 --> 1:00:42.120
<v Speaker 1>and he deployed those high points and those more subtle

1:00:42.120 --> 1:00:46.000
<v Speaker 1>points really smartly, really well in TPC Sagras.

1:00:47.400 --> 1:00:50.400
<v Speaker 3>Uh. Yeah, there's a there's a bit of a crescendo

1:00:50.480 --> 1:00:52.320
<v Speaker 3>there at the end. You think that you're little bit

1:00:52.320 --> 1:00:55.440
<v Speaker 3>you're looking forward to the whole time and then and

1:00:55.440 --> 1:00:58.200
<v Speaker 3>and see what happens. But I I mean, I think

1:00:58.240 --> 1:01:01.480
<v Speaker 3>there's plenty of highlights in the middle that gets you

1:01:01.520 --> 1:01:04.400
<v Speaker 3>to that part. I mean, after a whole week of

1:01:04.520 --> 1:01:07.480
<v Speaker 3>watching it be played in the tournament, I was excited

1:01:07.480 --> 1:01:10.439
<v Speaker 3>to play every hole, but I guess in a normal week,

1:01:10.560 --> 1:01:14.560
<v Speaker 3>like I don't know, even then, like I didn't feel

1:01:14.560 --> 1:01:16.880
<v Speaker 3>like there was anything that was like lulling me to sleep.

1:01:16.960 --> 1:01:18.880
<v Speaker 2>Really, I was just excited to be out there. And

1:01:18.880 --> 1:01:20.480
<v Speaker 2>maybe that's me, but I don't know.

1:01:20.560 --> 1:01:23.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, it's a lot of high points during the round.

1:01:23.960 --> 1:01:28.880
<v Speaker 1>But you know, like whole three, the par three, Yes,

1:01:29.000 --> 1:01:32.600
<v Speaker 1>this isn't kind of the most memorable hole in the world.

1:01:33.240 --> 1:01:35.280
<v Speaker 1>You know, there are a few holes sprinkled through the

1:01:35.320 --> 1:01:38.600
<v Speaker 1>back nine that that aren't that aren't gung ho and

1:01:39.280 --> 1:01:42.160
<v Speaker 1>in throwing, you know, cool stuff in your face shot

1:01:42.200 --> 1:01:44.760
<v Speaker 1>after shot, so there is a little bit of rising

1:01:44.800 --> 1:01:48.280
<v Speaker 1>and falling action there. But it's true the TPC Sawgrass

1:01:48.320 --> 1:01:51.360
<v Speaker 1>is an action packed round. It is an action movie,

1:01:51.840 --> 1:01:55.440
<v Speaker 1>you know, whereas whereas other courses might might belong to

1:01:55.680 --> 1:01:58.720
<v Speaker 1>other genres, they might be the historical.

1:01:58.520 --> 1:02:00.640
<v Speaker 3>I kind of I like that. Thinking of it as

1:02:00.640 --> 1:02:03.000
<v Speaker 3>a movie is like a type of movie. I like

1:02:03.040 --> 1:02:03.480
<v Speaker 3>that a lot.

1:02:04.120 --> 1:02:07.320
<v Speaker 1>Well, Tbczagra. Certainly you wouldn't. You wouldn't call it a

1:02:07.520 --> 1:02:10.880
<v Speaker 1>romantic comedy. No, you wouldn't. You wouldn't call it a western.

1:02:11.840 --> 1:02:15.320
<v Speaker 1>I think I think it's it's like diehard, you know, yeah,

1:02:15.440 --> 1:02:17.960
<v Speaker 1>or or you know, an identity.

1:02:17.840 --> 1:02:20.000
<v Speaker 2>In honor of ludicrous. I think it's maybe a fast

1:02:20.040 --> 1:02:22.400
<v Speaker 2>and furious movie that's perfect.

1:02:22.560 --> 1:02:26.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, you found it, you found it PJ. All right.

1:02:26.680 --> 1:02:29.120
<v Speaker 1>So those are the six questions that you can ask

1:02:29.320 --> 1:02:33.280
<v Speaker 1>about how to about a course's routing, and that can

1:02:33.360 --> 1:02:36.160
<v Speaker 1>help you, you know, assess whether you think a routing

1:02:36.200 --> 1:02:40.520
<v Speaker 1>of a course is effective or ineffective. So we've talked about,

1:02:40.560 --> 1:02:42.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, how an architect approaches a routing. We've talked

1:02:42.760 --> 1:02:46.600
<v Speaker 1>about how a player can evaluate a routing. Any big

1:02:46.640 --> 1:02:50.040
<v Speaker 1>takeaways from all this, Any any moments during during this

1:02:50.120 --> 1:02:52.560
<v Speaker 1>episode that will stand out to you and that you'll

1:02:52.600 --> 1:02:53.440
<v Speaker 1>you'll take home with you.

1:02:54.120 --> 1:02:58.200
<v Speaker 3>Is there a question or an aspect of routing that

1:02:58.240 --> 1:02:59.840
<v Speaker 3>you feel is more important.

1:02:59.480 --> 1:03:01.000
<v Speaker 2>Than the others.

1:03:02.160 --> 1:03:03.800
<v Speaker 1>That's a great question, like.

1:03:03.720 --> 1:03:07.880
<v Speaker 3>If you're ranking these in waiting or priority, like does

1:03:07.880 --> 1:03:10.640
<v Speaker 3>something matter more to me?

1:03:11.840 --> 1:03:18.000
<v Speaker 1>They're all really important, But I have a pet peeve

1:03:18.080 --> 1:03:21.560
<v Speaker 1>about courses that don't have good green to tea transitions.

1:03:22.400 --> 1:03:25.280
<v Speaker 1>That is not the most important thing to me, but

1:03:25.360 --> 1:03:28.760
<v Speaker 1>I will mention that it's something that drives me crazy

1:03:29.440 --> 1:03:33.200
<v Speaker 1>when those aren't well worked out. I think that question

1:03:33.320 --> 1:03:36.200
<v Speaker 1>number two, if I were to pick a question in

1:03:36.240 --> 1:03:38.920
<v Speaker 1>those six that we covered, that is most important to me.

1:03:39.360 --> 1:03:41.920
<v Speaker 1>Question number two, do the holes have a variety of

1:03:41.960 --> 1:03:48.440
<v Speaker 1>topographical profiles? To me, that's incredibly, incredibly important just through

1:03:48.480 --> 1:03:52.400
<v Speaker 1>the course of the eighteen whole round, that the holes

1:03:52.640 --> 1:03:56.040
<v Speaker 1>use the land in different ways, And it's such a

1:03:56.080 --> 1:04:01.080
<v Speaker 1>clear indicator to me of a really quality golf course

1:04:01.240 --> 1:04:04.560
<v Speaker 1>as opposed to one that's kind of mediocre or not

1:04:04.640 --> 1:04:08.040
<v Speaker 1>as thought through from a design perspective, the courses where

1:04:08.040 --> 1:04:11.800
<v Speaker 1>the holes have a variety of relationships to the land

1:04:12.440 --> 1:04:15.600
<v Speaker 1>are the ones that are really well designed and that

1:04:15.680 --> 1:04:20.720
<v Speaker 1>I think tend to stand up on repeat plays more

1:04:20.760 --> 1:04:25.640
<v Speaker 1>than anything else. Sequencing also is you know, if I

1:04:25.680 --> 1:04:29.200
<v Speaker 1>were to choose a number two in order of importance.

1:04:29.720 --> 1:04:32.960
<v Speaker 1>The sequencing of the holes, the balance, variety and flow

1:04:33.160 --> 1:04:36.680
<v Speaker 1>of different hole types over the course of around also

1:04:37.200 --> 1:04:41.880
<v Speaker 1>a very very important factor in the pleasure that a

1:04:41.880 --> 1:04:45.680
<v Speaker 1>player might take in a round of golf, and flaws

1:04:45.720 --> 1:04:48.680
<v Speaker 1>in that respect really stand out to players. They can

1:04:48.720 --> 1:04:51.280
<v Speaker 1>really take you out of around. If you have three

1:04:51.320 --> 1:04:53.000
<v Speaker 1>holes back to back to back that are kind of

1:04:53.040 --> 1:04:57.280
<v Speaker 1>similar that it ruins it a little bit. And so

1:04:58.800 --> 1:05:01.920
<v Speaker 1>those those two I think I would pick out. What

1:05:02.000 --> 1:05:04.280
<v Speaker 1>about you, I mean, do you think are there any

1:05:04.480 --> 1:05:06.560
<v Speaker 1>that stand out to you as as more important than

1:05:06.600 --> 1:05:07.480
<v Speaker 1>the others?

1:05:07.680 --> 1:05:12.360
<v Speaker 3>I agree on the sequencing I think is probably the

1:05:12.400 --> 1:05:16.800
<v Speaker 3>most important, and it does if it gets too repetitive

1:05:16.880 --> 1:05:20.600
<v Speaker 3>too quick, like you said, it does kind of like

1:05:20.760 --> 1:05:24.000
<v Speaker 3>ruin the immersion because you just feel like you're going

1:05:24.080 --> 1:05:27.720
<v Speaker 3>back and forth too many, too many times in a row.

1:05:27.840 --> 1:05:31.080
<v Speaker 3>So I think that is the one that, at least

1:05:31.280 --> 1:05:35.920
<v Speaker 3>actively in the action of playing and walking and being

1:05:35.960 --> 1:05:38.240
<v Speaker 3>out there, is the one that I would be most

1:05:38.320 --> 1:05:38.880
<v Speaker 3>conscious of.

1:05:39.000 --> 1:05:42.560
<v Speaker 1>I think, yeah, I can definitely see that. Yeah, I

1:05:42.600 --> 1:05:46.880
<v Speaker 1>saw that the concept of sequencing resonated with you, And

1:05:47.400 --> 1:05:50.880
<v Speaker 1>that's a good indication of something to look for and

1:05:50.960 --> 1:05:53.680
<v Speaker 1>think more about as you're playing golf, because it clearly

1:05:53.760 --> 1:05:57.400
<v Speaker 1>has an effect on the enjoyment that you take in

1:05:57.960 --> 1:06:01.200
<v Speaker 1>a round of golf. And that's you know, for me,

1:06:01.600 --> 1:06:07.080
<v Speaker 1>in learning about golf architecture, your enjoyment and what you

1:06:07.160 --> 1:06:12.240
<v Speaker 1>find to be important to taking pleasure in a round

1:06:12.280 --> 1:06:15.720
<v Speaker 1>of golf is such a great guide for what to

1:06:15.800 --> 1:06:20.800
<v Speaker 1>learn about in golf architecture. Sequencing is one of those things,

1:06:20.840 --> 1:06:24.280
<v Speaker 1>and the act of sequencing and routing is so complicated

1:06:25.080 --> 1:06:28.320
<v Speaker 1>that really only the best architects are able to do

1:06:28.400 --> 1:06:32.760
<v Speaker 1>it well. And so that immediately guides you toward great

1:06:32.840 --> 1:06:36.600
<v Speaker 1>golf courses and allows you to identify great golf courses

1:06:36.960 --> 1:06:39.360
<v Speaker 1>just by thinking of the sequencing of the holes. So

1:06:39.400 --> 1:06:43.200
<v Speaker 1>that's definitely something to hang on to. All right. So

1:06:43.280 --> 1:06:45.720
<v Speaker 1>next time on designing Golf, we're going to have some

1:06:45.840 --> 1:06:50.760
<v Speaker 1>pre master's content for you. But after the masters, keep

1:06:50.800 --> 1:06:53.880
<v Speaker 1>an eye out for a special golf Architecture one oh

1:06:53.960 --> 1:06:57.200
<v Speaker 1>one video. PJ doesn't know about this yet, I'm announcing

1:06:57.200 --> 1:06:59.800
<v Speaker 1>it to him as well as to you. We'll record this.

1:07:00.240 --> 1:07:02.760
<v Speaker 1>We need to give PG a chance to get well

1:07:02.800 --> 1:07:06.200
<v Speaker 1>again and recover his voice, but we're going to talk

1:07:06.240 --> 1:07:10.680
<v Speaker 1>about five great golf course routings, and that will be

1:07:10.880 --> 1:07:14.160
<v Speaker 1>a video that we'll post on the YouTube channel and

1:07:14.240 --> 1:07:16.840
<v Speaker 1>will apply some of these principles that we talked about

1:07:16.840 --> 1:07:20.480
<v Speaker 1>in this episode. So everybody keep your eyes peeled for

1:07:20.560 --> 1:07:24.120
<v Speaker 1>that on the YouTube channel in a few weeks after

1:07:24.320 --> 1:07:26.240
<v Speaker 1>the Masters. We're going to do this after the Masters,

1:07:26.480 --> 1:07:28.800
<v Speaker 1>all right, PJ, thank you for joining me. Always a

1:07:28.840 --> 1:07:31.960
<v Speaker 1>pleasure to talk to you. That's another golf architecture one

1:07:31.960 --> 1:07:40.120
<v Speaker 1>on one in the books. This episode of Designing Golf

1:07:40.280 --> 1:07:44.640
<v Speaker 1>was produced by Will Balsam. Thank you Will. If you've

1:07:44.680 --> 1:07:48.800
<v Speaker 1>been liking Designing Golf, if you've been enjoying golf Architecture

1:07:48.840 --> 1:07:51.560
<v Speaker 1>one oh one, then make sure to see what we've

1:07:51.560 --> 1:07:54.480
<v Speaker 1>got going on in Friday Golf Club. Go to the

1:07:54.480 --> 1:07:58.080
<v Speaker 1>Frida Egg dot com slash membership to see what Frida

1:07:58.120 --> 1:08:01.360
<v Speaker 1>Egg Golf Club offers. But we've got lots of golf

1:08:01.480 --> 1:08:05.120
<v Speaker 1>architecture content happening in Friday Golf Club as well as

1:08:05.160 --> 1:08:08.920
<v Speaker 1>a new member forum that's been really fun to participate in.

1:08:09.040 --> 1:08:11.880
<v Speaker 1>Right now, some of our members are putting together and

1:08:12.400 --> 1:08:16.719
<v Speaker 1>a golf architecture family tree where they're tracing the links

1:08:16.800 --> 1:08:20.479
<v Speaker 1>between different golf architects over time. It's a really cool project,

1:08:20.760 --> 1:08:22.559
<v Speaker 1>and it's the example of the kind of stuff that

1:08:22.560 --> 1:08:25.320
<v Speaker 1>we get up to in Friday Golf Club. Pretty nerdy,

1:08:25.800 --> 1:08:29.520
<v Speaker 1>but very very fun, and we're creating a great community

1:08:29.600 --> 1:08:32.880
<v Speaker 1>in there. So check out Friday Golf Club, Thefrida egg

1:08:32.920 --> 1:08:36.240
<v Speaker 1>dot com slash membership. Thank you for listening, and we'll

1:08:36.280 --> 1:08:45.720
<v Speaker 1>be back again soon with another episode.