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Speaker 1: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 1: crime all the time. It's Thursday, January first. Happy New

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Speaker 1: Year everyone, The team and I are taking a couple

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Speaker 1: of days off. We will be back in just a

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Speaker 1: few days, but wanted to share a very special holiday

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Speaker 1: episode that we put together for you. We hope you

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Speaker 1: enjoy it as much as we did.

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Speaker 2: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 2: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 2: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 1: crime all the time. It's Sunday, December seventh, and we

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Speaker 1: hope you had a fantastic weekend. I'm Stephanie Leidecker, joined

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Speaker 1: here of course with Courtney Armstrong and Body Move In,

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Speaker 1: and we have a very special guest tonight. We're joined

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Speaker 1: by the esteemed criminologist, doctor Catherine Ramslin. We'll be talking

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Speaker 1: to her about everything from interviews that she's done with

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Speaker 1: serial killers as well as some modern trends that she's

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Speaker 1: seeing pop up in the area of true crime. Plus

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Speaker 1: also forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan is here to break

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Speaker 1: down the latest in the Luigi mangi Oon trial, and

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Speaker 1: the new developments in the David pop Star investigation, and

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Speaker 1: all the details surrounding the death of fourteen year olds

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Speaker 1: Celeste Rebus Hernandez.

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Speaker 3: First of all, welcome to the show. We're so happy

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Speaker 3: to have you here.

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Speaker 4: Well, thank you for having me and I'm looking forward

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Speaker 4: to this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and just to get a little business taken care

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Speaker 1: of at the top. You know, some of us know

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Speaker 1: you most recently from the Brian Coberger investigation, and I

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Speaker 1: know you are a professor of his, and listen, that

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Speaker 1: is not what you're here to talk about, and we

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Speaker 1: respectfully understand that. If there's anything about that that you

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Speaker 1: want to share or reasoning, great, but just so we're

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Speaker 1: sort of checking that off the list as we get

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Speaker 1: into it, because you know, bind torture kill BTK, there

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Speaker 1: are so many minds to discuss, which is what we'll

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Speaker 1: be kind of focusing on.

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Speaker 3: In this episode.

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Speaker 4: Sounds good. I can't talk about him because he was

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Speaker 4: my student, and students have protection content and grades and

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Speaker 4: that's the way.

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Speaker 1: I knew him, understood completely understand, So BTK, I know

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Speaker 1: that is something that you've studied so closely. I think

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Speaker 1: we all have sort of seen some of your work

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Speaker 1: even around that case specifically, and it's one that we've

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Speaker 1: touched on a bit in previous episodes, but certainly not

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Speaker 1: with a benefit of you with us. So, and again,

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Speaker 1: if anyone's just joining us right now and wants to

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Speaker 1: share Live eight and eight three one Crime or you

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Speaker 1: could always leave us a talk back on the iHeartRadio

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Speaker 1: app So BTK before we even get there, Courtney, do

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Speaker 1: you want to set up a little bit of the

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Speaker 1: backgrounds of that case in case someone's listening who's not

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Speaker 1: as familiar.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely so.

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Speaker 5: Serial killer Dennis Rader also was known as BTK, standing

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Speaker 5: for Bind Torture Kill so Denis Raider terrorized Wichita and

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Speaker 5: Park City, Kansas for decades. Radar murdered ten people between

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Speaker 5: nineteen seventy four and nineteen ninety one, and then he

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Speaker 5: stopped killing, but continued to sort of relive his crimes

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Speaker 5: through fantasy. So for years, the serial killer Dennis Rader

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Speaker 5: blended into the community. He was a church president, a husband,

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Speaker 5: a father, a cub Scout leader, and this is all

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Speaker 5: while hiding his secret life. Now Dennis Rader resurfaced in

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Speaker 5: two thousand and four when he contacted the media again,

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Speaker 5: ultimately leading to his arrest. So, Catherine, if we can

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Speaker 5: ask what originally drew you to study Dennis Radar.

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Speaker 4: There was a woman who decided somehow got him to

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Speaker 4: agree to write a book with her when he was

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Speaker 4: first arrested in two thousand and five. In twenty tens,

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Speaker 4: which is five years later, I saw her on Facebook

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Speaker 4: and I had not heard that her book came out,

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Speaker 4: so I asked her, and she told me she didn't

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Speaker 4: want to write it, and she asked if I wanted to,

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Speaker 4: So I did and wrote a proposal that had to

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Speaker 4: pass muster with the victims' families because they really didn't

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Speaker 4: want a book written about him, but I proposed one

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Speaker 4: that would be done to benefit criminology, law enforcement, and

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Speaker 4: forensic psychology. And if they weren't on board with that,

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Speaker 4: then I didn't want to do it because I wasn't

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Speaker 4: really interested in just having somebody, you know, glather on

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Speaker 4: about himself, and they were. They thought that was a

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Speaker 4: good idea. And that's how it all started, really just

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Speaker 4: by happenstance. I saw this woman who had started things

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Speaker 4: up with him and then didn't want to carry it on.

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Speaker 5: Wow, that's so interesting and also just such a life

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Speaker 5: lesson on following up in general, Old Carrie where that live.

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Speaker 4: I have many examples of that from my writing learner.

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Speaker 6: And I read that book Confessions of a Serial Killer,

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Speaker 6: The Untold Story of Dennis Rader. It's very very good.

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Speaker 6: I learned so much. I read that book many many

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Speaker 6: years ago. It stuck with me, and I think Stephanie

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Speaker 6: and Courtney can attest to how much I go on

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Speaker 6: and on and on and on and on about it.

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Speaker 6: I'm very impressed. But from your extensive time with Denis Raider,

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Speaker 6: serialciller dennist Rader, what surprised you the most about his

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Speaker 6: personality or behavior exactly?

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean by that time I had really studied

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Speaker 4: a lot of Zerio.

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Speaker 3: Oh I'm sure you know.

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Speaker 4: That was twenty ten, and I had been in the

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Speaker 4: field for some time, and I'd worked with that bi

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Speaker 4: profilers and detectives, and so it wasn't that it was surprising.

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Speaker 4: But I had an interesting moment with him in the

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Speaker 4: prison where he didn't know I was coming, and when

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Speaker 4: the guards brought and you don't get it's not like

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Speaker 4: what you see on TV where you have a you know,

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Speaker 4: a wall like glass petition between two different rooms with

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Speaker 4: monitors in a maximum security prison, at least in Kansas.

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Speaker 4: And so I was watching them bring him in, and

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Speaker 4: he was putting on the what am I Hannibal elector

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Speaker 4: kind of grouchy thing to them, to the guards. But

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Speaker 4: he saw me and he did this instant change to

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Speaker 4: this nice guy. You know, it was pleasant, friendly. It

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Speaker 4: was just so amazing to watch how fast he could

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Speaker 4: make that transition, And that, to me was part of

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Speaker 4: the secret of his success in having this doubled facade

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Speaker 4: where he'd be a family man and a churchgoer and

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Speaker 4: boy scout, you know, volunteer, but at the same time

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Speaker 4: be harboring these very dark kinds of fantasies and he

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Speaker 4: could just switch in and out so fast.

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Speaker 6: Is that the part he called cubing? Yeah, okay, So

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Speaker 6: doctor Catherine Ramsen explains this very well. Dennis Raider had this.

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Speaker 6: It was his idea, I think, right well, he.

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Speaker 4: Called it couping. I thought it was spelled it coe U,

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Speaker 4: P I N G. And but he kept talking about

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Speaker 4: it like it was different sides, And I thought, you

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Speaker 4: mean cubing so you know, he says that I came

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Speaker 4: up with it, but he came up with it. I

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Speaker 4: just spelled it correctly.

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Speaker 6: So for those who don't know, cubing is Dennis Raider's

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Speaker 6: personal term for the way he identified separate blocks or cubes,

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Speaker 6: each containing like different versions of himself. No, it's one cube,

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Speaker 6: like a Rubik's cube, right, yeah, I know.

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Speaker 4: It's just well, it's like most I wish I could.

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Speaker 4: I had my I carry around my little cube to

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Speaker 4: share people. I want cue multiple sides. So if you

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Speaker 4: can imagine, each side has a label like husband, father,

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Speaker 4: you know, serial killer, burglar, etc. He can shift those

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Speaker 4: sides around depending on the circumstances. He can pivot very

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Speaker 4: quickly from one to another. He has multiple faces, but

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Speaker 4: he's only got one face out outward at any given time,

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Speaker 4: depending on the circumstances. He called them life frames. So

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Speaker 4: the reason it's different and I think better than compartmentalizing

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Speaker 4: is because compartmentalizing conveys the idea that these are all

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Speaker 4: and containers blocked off from one another. And that's kind

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Speaker 4: of the way Ted Bundy described it. He talked about

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Speaker 4: having a security shield, but with greater is like it's

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Speaker 4: all integrated and they're just all available for whenever he

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Speaker 4: needs them. And when I saw the speed at which

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Speaker 4: he could make that transition, I thought, that really works

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Speaker 4: a lot better than this notion of compartments.

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Speaker 1: And does that mean his like emotional IQ is very

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Speaker 1: very high because again, like we're seeing things from different

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Speaker 1: perspectives very quickly. Or is that the opposite that his

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Speaker 1: IQ would be lower?

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Speaker 4: No, it would be that it's he's very superficial. He

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Speaker 4: doesn't have roots in integrity. It's all about what works

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Speaker 4: for me right now? How can I do people? How

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Speaker 4: can I get what I need for me? It's very

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Speaker 4: it's kind of an infantile narcissism, So it's not a

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Speaker 4: high emotional intelligence by any means.

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Speaker 1: It's very nutty when you hear people say that person

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Speaker 1: is all things all at once, right, they're just sort

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Speaker 1: of they're playing the room essentially.

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Speaker 4: Well, he can be different things. I don't think it's

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Speaker 4: like playing the room because I don't think it would

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Speaker 4: be he'll step from one person to the other. I

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Speaker 4: think it's more the circumstances. So what he needs to

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Speaker 4: be to pass is normal to be in church, to

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Speaker 4: pray with his wife. You know, these are things he

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Speaker 4: has to put on. It's like actors who take on

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Speaker 4: different roles. I worked with doctor al Carlisle, who was

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Speaker 4: a prison psychologist who worked with Bundy, and he came

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Speaker 4: up with this theory about it being like actors, and

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Speaker 4: we showed that to Rader while I was working with him,

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Speaker 4: and he thought that describes it pretty well.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 5: Wow, you're listening to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm

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Speaker 5: Courtney here with Stephanie Leidecker and Body Move In and Weird.

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Speaker 5: Are so thrilled and honored to be here with doctor

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Speaker 5: Catlin Ramsland. If you have any questions, please hit us

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Speaker 5: on the talkbacks. We'd love to hear from you, Catherine.

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Speaker 5: Are there any large misconceptions that you feel are still

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Speaker 5: out there about BTK.

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Speaker 4: There are a lot of people who decide that he's

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Speaker 4: like he killed John, Vinnie Ramsey, Zobeiac. You know, they

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Speaker 4: attribute a lot of unsolved crimes to him. So that's

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Speaker 4: one thing, But another is that and I keep being

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Speaker 4: told that I missed things because there had to have

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Speaker 4: been sexual abuse in his background, or there had to

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Speaker 4: have been a head injury, or there had to have

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Speaker 4: been this and that because they're going with the formulas.

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Speaker 4: And the reason I wanted to study Dennis Raider is

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Speaker 4: he was an outlier to the formulas. He shows us

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Speaker 4: you have to stop thinking in a formulaic way about

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Speaker 4: these people. Serial killer is not a criminal type. There's

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Speaker 4: no profile of a serial killer each it's a description

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Speaker 4: of a behavior, and there are many many different versions

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Speaker 4: of what these serial killers are. So stop with the

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Speaker 4: formulas already. But I think that's the one thing that

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Speaker 4: I find in people who are they just believe I

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Speaker 4: miss something because they expect some certain things in his

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Speaker 4: background when I didn't report on them. Then that's I'm

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Speaker 4: just not doing it right. And that's been annoying because

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Speaker 4: I spent fifteen years talking to this guy, a lot

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Speaker 4: more than most other people have, for sure, And I

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Speaker 4: don't think i'm things. I think they're just using formulas

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Speaker 4: to set themselves up with expectations that they believe have

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Speaker 4: to be true. And so we don't have to be true.

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Speaker 4: These are just ideas that people had, and the more

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Speaker 4: we've learned, the more we see those ideas just aren't right.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, because we I mean even I do that.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, we talk about it, you know, well.

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Speaker 6: You guys will ask me, do you think this is

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Speaker 6: a serial killer? But no, there was no cooling off

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Speaker 6: the formula, right, so we have to get it out

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Speaker 6: of our head that it's we don't.

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Speaker 4: Even talk about cooling off anymore. That's that's that was

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Speaker 4: one of the quast twenty years. That was when the

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Speaker 4: guys changed their definition in two thousand and five. Right,

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Speaker 4: the whole cooling off period was so vague and vacuous

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Speaker 4: that they finally realized, we can't really use that as

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Speaker 4: part of a definition.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting you say that because even I think for

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Speaker 1: myself and anyone maybe listening who follows true crime, we

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Speaker 1: ask our this all the time too.

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Speaker 3: Why what's our fascination? What its are we scratching?

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Speaker 1: And I like to think that sometimes it's compartmentalizing in

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Speaker 1: our own worlds, right that, Okay, I understand the formula

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Speaker 1: of something clearly not a serial killer, but in general

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Speaker 1: and true crime, therefore, I feel safer in the world.

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Speaker 4: And formulas are about prediction, and I sort.

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Speaker 1: Of when I hear you speak, it's like, it's so

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Speaker 1: fair because I find myself doing that in the world,

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Speaker 1: and generally speaking, we talk about a lot of dark

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Speaker 1: things all the time, and it's interesting to hear that perspective.

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Speaker 4: I think. I think my advantage in doing this work

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Speaker 4: is not that all the work in psychologists all the

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Speaker 4: work I did in philosophy, so it lets me float

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Speaker 4: with ambiguity and with unanswered questions a lot more easily,

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Speaker 4: I think than many people, because that is a place

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Speaker 4: that doesn't feel safe, and you have to get used

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Speaker 4: to it if you're going to be able to do

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Speaker 4: this work. But people do love their formulas because it

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Speaker 4: helps us with our expectations and the feeling that we've

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Speaker 4: got it all figured out, so that we.

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Speaker 6: Can figure it out with the formula, right, like the

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Speaker 6: idea we hope almost even like that if we study

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Speaker 6: it long enough. Maybe I do data analysis profess, you know,

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Speaker 6: as a profession, and I'm always doing predictive analysis, so

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Speaker 6: if we can find if we can get enough data,

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Speaker 6: we can start predicting behavior.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: But that's I think the wonderful thing about human beings

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Speaker 4: is that there's always a bit of unpredictability. No matter

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Speaker 4: how much what you have going for you in terms

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Speaker 4: of all the data and data management, there's always something.

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Speaker 3: There's always an outlier.

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Speaker 4: Right, that's why I like the outliers.

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Speaker 6: Right, And that's why you decided to start working with

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Speaker 6: Dennis Raider because he was kind of like the outlier.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I wanted to understand that, but also use his

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Speaker 4: case as an example of why we should be careful

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Speaker 4: about these formulas because it's really hurting our ability to

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Speaker 4: understand fully a person's life. I studied phenomenology, so of

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Speaker 4: my master's degrees is phenomenology and the idea of you

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Speaker 4: have to bracket your expectations so that you can let

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Speaker 4: what's really there show itself to you, because your expectations

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Speaker 4: otherwise can prevent you from seeing things.

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Speaker 3: Almost like a block. Yeah. Yeah, oh my gosh.

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Speaker 5: Well, please stick with us because after the break, I'd

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Speaker 5: love to ask you a few more questions about both

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Speaker 5: philosophy and phenomenology, which I have never heard of till

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Speaker 5: this moment, So stick around. Doctor Kathlin Ramslin will also

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Speaker 5: be speaking with us about Eileen Wornos and also how

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Speaker 5: a fender behavior is potentially changing today. Keep it here

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Speaker 5: at True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight and Heart Radio. We've

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Speaker 1: been talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker,

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Speaker 1: here with Courtney Armstrong and Body Movin my favorite girls

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Speaker 1: in all Things. And we have doctor Catherine Ramslin with

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Speaker 1: us tonight. And if you're not familiar with her work,

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Speaker 1: she's been in over two hundred documentaries.

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Speaker 3: You have for sure seen her. I have seen you

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Speaker 3: in so many that.

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Speaker 1: We get a little starstruck almost because not only are

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Speaker 1: you an academic, but you have a wide net of

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Speaker 1: the many minds that you've studied. We've been talking about BTK,

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Speaker 1: bind torture kill, a serial killer who you've spent over

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Speaker 1: fifteen years studying. To me, that is the scariest of

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Speaker 1: all of the scerial killers, and just in Layman's terms,

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Speaker 1: and forgive me if they're too layman, but what always

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Speaker 1: struck me about BTK specifically was two things. One his

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Speaker 1: ability to be everything to many people, meaning he was

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Speaker 1: a beloved father, he was a beloved partner. People liked

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Speaker 1: him in the real world mentioned earlier, he would go

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Speaker 1: to church and be you know, philanthropic, people liked him.

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Speaker 1: In fact, his daughter loves him. And how real that

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Speaker 1: world must be. Yet you know he would bind in

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Speaker 1: torture and kill people. You know, he infamously had a

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Speaker 1: very high first kill count right, that he murdered a

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Speaker 1: family the first time out of the gates and then

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Speaker 1: went back to his simple world.

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Speaker 3: And for me personally, the theory of that is just

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Speaker 3: as scary as scary can be.

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Speaker 1: It like touches into every part of human behavior that

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Speaker 1: I could see myself walking straight into. Right, you believe

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Speaker 1: the facade that sometimes people are putting forward, or how

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Speaker 1: they present themselves, they're masking perhaps in some cases. And

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Speaker 1: yet the level of violence he bestowed on people was

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Speaker 1: frankly unparalleled in many ways. So for you to be

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Speaker 1: studying that is that Is there anything that I'm miss

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Speaker 1: seeing that?

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Speaker 3: Really?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? I actually don't think his level of violence was

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Speaker 4: on parallel. I've seen much worse than him by far.

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Speaker 4: He didn't hold people for long periods of time, torturing them,

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Speaker 4: putting their head in the tub and drowning him and

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Speaker 4: pulling it back out and then drowning him again. He

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Speaker 4: didn't do things like that. He was fairly quick.

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Speaker 3: His whole idea of torture family at one time, though,

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Speaker 3: that's pretty intening.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, he's but he strangled them. He didn't torture.

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Speaker 4: He didn't the little girl he did he hanged her

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Speaker 4: from a fright. But I would still say I've seen

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Speaker 4: much more violence than him. I would also I would

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Speaker 4: also say everybody liked him. He had a fairly rigid personality,

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Speaker 4: and there were there were people in his jurisdiction when

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Speaker 4: he was a compliance officer. I just thought he was

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Speaker 4: an awful person. So his daughter high.

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Speaker 3: Had a family who thought very highly of him.

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Speaker 1: You know, there were parts of his personal life was

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Speaker 1: very from what I've read so well, I.

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Speaker 4: Mean, his daughter has completely turned on him. Yeah, so

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Speaker 4: I don't know what I would say about that. Her

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Speaker 4: book has certainly moments where he scared her made her uneasy.

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Speaker 4: So you know, everything is has got shades of nuance

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Speaker 4: to it, and certainly he does. But really, what we're

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Speaker 4: puzzled to buy with Dennis Rader is his ability to

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Speaker 4: be normal, to act normally, to go to have a

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Speaker 4: hold a regular job, be a family man, have kids,

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Speaker 4: be a father, be you know, volunteer with the boy Scouts,

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Speaker 4: helping out, being being very invested in his church, and

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Speaker 4: at the same time be always trolling around looking for

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Speaker 4: the potential of a victim, and to be breaking into

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Speaker 4: people's houses for burglary, to be feeling like he needed

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Speaker 4: to dominate people and control people. So how does somebody

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Speaker 4: hold all of that kind of fantasy life while also

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Speaker 4: performing as a normal person. I think that's what really

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Speaker 4: fascinates us about.

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Speaker 6: Him performing as a normal person. That's the key right there.

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Speaker 6: So I have a question, doctor, do you think, and

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Speaker 6: you know, do you you're very studied? Do you think

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Speaker 6: that this normal performing as a normal person was that

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Speaker 6: his like that wasn't his real self? Or do you

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Speaker 6: think the cube the side of him that was bt K?

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Speaker 6: Do you think that's his real self?

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Speaker 4: I think they're all his real self.

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Speaker 3: You think they're all his real self.

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Speaker 4: I don't think he's a unified I don't think any

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Speaker 4: of us are brankly right. Maybe some of us have

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Speaker 4: more sense of integrity and others, but I think I

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Speaker 4: think he had. All of these things are real to him,

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Speaker 4: and the many conversations I've had with him, letters, visits

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Speaker 4: and whatnot, I see I see different sides to him.

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Speaker 4: All of them are real, though, and all of them

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Speaker 4: are meaningful. But he is a spin doctor. He if

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Speaker 4: you want to do Bible study with him, that's what

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Speaker 4: he will be to you. If you want him to

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Speaker 4: be the monster. He will draw his cave monsters for you,

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Speaker 4: and he'll be the serial killer if you want him to.

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Speaker 4: You know, he'll he will be what you want him

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Speaker 4: to be. He has the ability to do that. And

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Speaker 4: I think all of them are real in that they

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Speaker 4: are the way he gets along in life. All of

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Speaker 4: them are, but he but he's definitely an impression manager

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Speaker 4: for sure.

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Speaker 5: I had a question when you mentioned him sort of

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Speaker 5: trolling even in whatever facet of his life he was

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Speaker 5: in for victim. Was there anything in particular that Dennis

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Speaker 5: Radar looked for in general or yes.

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Speaker 4: I mean it changed over the course of his period,

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Speaker 4: as initially he didn't expect that they were in befour

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Speaker 4: people in the Otara house, for example, he thought there

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Speaker 4: would there would be a mother and the two kids,

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Speaker 4: and he dispatched the little boy quickly, and then he

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Speaker 4: was going to kidnap the mother and daughter because he

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Speaker 4: had a mother daughter fantasy. He's going to take them

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Speaker 4: to an abandoned bar, and none of that worked out,

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Speaker 4: and he ended up killing four people Axley, So then

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Speaker 4: the next one he's going to be more careful about that.

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Speaker 4: And also they had a dog, so the next one

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Speaker 4: he's going to be more careful with. So he does

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Speaker 4: have a kind of a type, which would be a

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Speaker 4: petit woman that he feels that he can dominate more

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Speaker 4: Taro Julio Taro is dark haired, the next one, so

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Speaker 4: there were some variations. But he wanted them to eat.

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Speaker 4: Why was he attracted to that note? It was because

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Speaker 4: he felt he could dominate them. And that's very typical

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Speaker 4: of serial kills. Look, they don't want someone who's going

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Speaker 4: to resist them and fight them off and run away

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Speaker 4: and tell the police. They want someone they feel, you know,

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Speaker 4: pretty quickly bring under their control, which is, you know,

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Speaker 4: what it's all about for them.

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Speaker 5: I will not rest until I hear more about phenomenology.

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Speaker 3: Just what is that?

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Speaker 5: And also how has that impacted all of your research

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Speaker 5: and work well.

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Speaker 4: Phenomenology is a European philosophy. It goes with existentialism, which

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Speaker 4: is something I taught when I taught at Rutgers University.

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Speaker 4: It was a philosophy professor first, and I was attracted

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Speaker 4: to because it's it's a full person philosophy. It allows

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Speaker 4: individuals to be who they are. So phenomenology in a

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Speaker 4: nutshell is back to the things themselves, to strip away

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Speaker 4: theory and expectations and try to just see what a

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Speaker 4: phenomenon is and let it present itself to you before

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Speaker 4: you start theorizing about it. So it's really a philosophy

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Speaker 4: of looking at the world and accepting it for what

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Speaker 4: it is. And so if you're a therapist, you're going

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Speaker 4: to be letting people be who they are with that

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Speaker 4: instead of approaching them with a theory ality intact. So

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Speaker 4: it was just it was attractive to me. I was

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Speaker 4: a therapist for a little while. I didn't really like

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Speaker 4: being a therapist, but that was the philosophy that I

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Speaker 4: used when I was.

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Speaker 6: Interesting. It's almost like expectation management, something I need to get.

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Speaker 4: It's hard to do, too, because you have to bracket

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Speaker 4: your expectations and there's a certain pract I mean, we

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Speaker 4: had a master's program in it. We spent every day

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Speaker 4: learning to do this and to understand how we look

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Speaker 4: at the world through particular lenses, and those lenses can

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Speaker 4: make things look different than they actually are. So it's

436
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,640
Speaker 4: a skill, it's a practice, and of course it has

437
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,959
Speaker 4: affected much of what I do. Certainly, letting a serial

438
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 4: killer present himself to me in the way he wants

439
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 4: to before I start thinking about theories and formulas and whatnot.

440
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 4: So it really has affected how I think about them,

441
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 4: how I deal with them, ask questions, and then later

442
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:33,879
Speaker 4: write about them.

443
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,120
Speaker 6: Very interesting. This is true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're

444
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 6: talking true crime all the time. We are lucky enough

445
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,199
Speaker 6: to be joined by doctor Kathlin Ramsland and we're right

446
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 6: in the middle of talking about BTK. If you want

447
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 6: to give us a talk back, just download the iHeartRadio

448
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 6: app and hit the little microphone and boom, you're on

449
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 6: the show. Doctor Catherine Ramslin. I would like to ask

450
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 6: you about education, since we were talking about that and

451
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 6: bt K For those who aren't familiar, His first victims

452
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 6: happened in January nineteen seventy four, and then in nineteen

453
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,360
Speaker 6: seventy nine. He attended Wichita State University and he graduated

454
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 6: with a Bachelor of Science degree in administration. Do you

455
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 6: think or does the think that Dennis Rader may have

456
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,199
Speaker 6: pursued this degree to understand justice or inoculate himself from it,

457
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,360
Speaker 6: or do you think he has anything to do with anything.

458
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 4: I think it was actually earlier than seventy nine.

459
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 3: I thought, well, he graduated in seventy nine. He might

460
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 3: have attended earlier.

461
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 4: No, he was interested. He wanted to be a police officer.

462
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 4: He was interested in law enforcement. He was rejected, I

463
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,959
Speaker 4: think at least twice, if not three times. He was rejected,

464
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 4: but he wanted to be so he pursued degrees that

465
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 4: potentially would get him there. And he did have one

466
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 4: experience where he was in a classroom where a pathologist

467
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,959
Speaker 4: was teaching them about one of the victims, one of

468
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 4: his victims, And it was an interesting experience for him

469
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 4: to be talked about, knowing that he's the guy that

470
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 4: did the murder. But I think it was it wasn't

471
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 4: so much to learn how to get away with crimes,

472
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 4: but certainly that that's a byproduct. The more you know

473
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 4: the the more you're going to be thinking about what

474
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 4: do I need to do. But I think he really

475
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 4: just wanted to be in law enforcement because that was

476
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 4: his personality. It was very much black and white, law

477
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 4: and order, good and evil. He thinks of himself as

478
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 4: a good person who did some bad things.

479
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 1: I guess that's the case with most people who do

480
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: bad things, even right a lot.

481
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 4: I've heard a number of steroy killers describe themselves that way.

482
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 4: They're they're much more. They've spent much more time being

483
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 4: good people than bad people, so that outweighs what they've

484
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 4: done in their mind.

485
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 6: I guess that's true. I mean, in a sense they

486
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 6: do spend.

487
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 4: Much True, it equalizes the all the all the action,

488
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 4: all their behavior. Their behavior is not equal. But they

489
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 4: have done to murder and torture of the people outweighs

490
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 4: shoveling the walk for your neighbor during a snowstorm quite far.

491
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 6: But they're looking at it's black and white, like I've

492
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 6: spent twenty eight years of my life being a good,

493
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 6: good person and one day being a bad person.

494
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 4: So therefore, yeah, because they've dehumanized their victim.

495
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, interesting?

496
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 5: Did BTK Did he come up with his own name,

497
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 5: with his own quote nickname?

498
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 3: Is that correct?

499
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 4: Yeah? Very quickly, because he wanted to be sure not

500
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 4: to leave anything to chance. He wanted to have it.

501
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 4: He didn't want a stupid name. He wanted a name

502
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 4: that would terrify which talk.

503
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 5: Right, And I bring it up because you know earlier

504
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 5: you had touched upon the fact that in your experience

505
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 5: he actually wasn't that torturous in the scope of things.

506
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 5: Do you think he was trying to build himself up

507
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 5: or just have the catchiest name.

508
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 4: Was that his well, for him, the torture was psychological

509
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 4: more than it was. It wasn't physical. And he did

510
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 4: propose other names like the poet Strangler, so not a

511
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 4: very scary one. But I think he had four or

512
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 4: five ideas before he settled on BTK. But it was

513
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 4: really to get that sense of dominance. I mean, he

514
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 4: had studied the serial killers again that was something that

515
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 4: was an outlier. And he had also watched the press.

516
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 4: He watched how media was treating them like Ted Bundy

517
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 4: during the seventies, and so he wanted to be sure

518
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 4: that he had a handle that was going to be memorable.

519
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 6: Certainly was certainly was. And he would write the media

520
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 6: and the police departments, right, he would communicate with both

521
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 6: law enforcement and media and write letters not at.

522
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 4: The same time. He's kind of alternated, and it was

523
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 4: much more toward the media because he had a crush

524
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 4: on one of the news anchors, Oh yes, a caketb

525
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 4: And you also really liked the Witch Da Eagle. That

526
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 4: was the paper he liked to read. So he kind

527
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 4: of did both depending on what he wanted to do.

528
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 4: Or what message he was sending, but more of his

529
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 4: stuff was really aimed toward the media.

530
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,719
Speaker 1: Just to kind of divert from the specific crimes altogether.

531
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: I'm just curious, as as a professor, as a scholar,

532
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: as a woman, what is your tool and how do

533
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: you cope and all these dark corners? You know, we

534
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: do it every night. I find that we talk about

535
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: pretty dark stuff so regularly, and we all have kind

536
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: of our tools.

537
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,479
Speaker 3: But I feel like you, I feel like you really

538
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 3: have the tools. What can you teach us now?

539
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 4: I'm curious about your tools?

540
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 3: But fair question, by the way, fair question.

541
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 4: For the past three years, I've worked on a horse

542
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 4: farm volunteer work. I do a lot of the ride

543
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 4: around a tractor, I take care of the horses, I

544
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,719
Speaker 4: get eggs in from the chickens, et cetera. And that

545
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 4: all came about because I went to visit a horse

546
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 4: farm and the owner broke her foot and she needed

547
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 4: someone to rehab a horse and she couldn't obviously do it.

548
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 4: And his name was Sonny, and so I agreed to

549
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 4: take him on as a project because he needed to

550
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 4: be able to walk or else. And so I just

551
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 4: kept walking him and then soon I was riding him

552
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 4: and now I ride him. In fact, I wrote him today.

553
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 4: I ride him four times a week.

554
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 3: Wow.

555
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 4: And he's my best buddy. And now he has two.

556
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 3: Books and he's an author as well.

557
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 1: I'm a recent transplant to Nashville, so getting around horses

558
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: is something it's sort of like.

559
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 3: New to my world.

560
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: And it is a real therapy, grounding tool with all things.

561
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, we had another therapist right well.

562
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 4: And the thing about horses is you have to be

563
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 4: very present. You can't be wandering great daydreaming, not paying attention.

564
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 4: Have to be very present because anything could change in

565
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 4: a heartbeat. I've been trampled by a horse. I can

566
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 4: tell you it can be it can be fast. But

567
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 4: with this experience of just it helps me get away

568
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 4: from everything. I'll write maybe four or five hours, and

569
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 4: I'll go out to the farm and you know, shovel stalls,

570
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 4: I'll do whatever it needs to be done at the farm.

571
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 4: It just helps me get all of this stuff out

572
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 4: of my head, pay attention to the horses, and and

573
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 4: then I can come back fresh.

574
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 6: You mentioned that Sonny had two books. What what are

575
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 6: the Can you tell us the titles of the book.

576
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 4: The first one is just called Sonny says, and it's

577
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 4: about his his philosophical ancestors like Son Crates and son

578
00:32:52,840 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 4: Stotle and so and so we were just having fun

579
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 4: at the farm. I took pictures of all the different

580
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 4: animals and made it into a book because I wanted

581
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 4: to learn to self published. And then we decided to

582
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 4: put Sonny in an adventure, so it became the Palomino Pi.

583
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 4: It's a book called Sherlock Horse.

584
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, it just was fun and it has

585
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 3: been fun.

586
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 6: Oh that's good. So you learned how to self published

587
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 6: through I.

588
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 4: Learned how to self publish. I would I would say,

589
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 4: don't do it, don't put pictures. You're going to learn

590
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 4: how to do this. Don't don't have your first book

591
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 4: with pictures, because that was really hard, I'm sure, but

592
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 4: it turned out to be fun and now it's just

593
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 4: sort of a diversion.

594
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 3: That's amazing though.

595
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 5: And yeah, as Buddy mentioned, we just had an equine

596
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 5: therapist on who did talk so much about the need

597
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 5: to be present around horses, and so yeah, second person,

598
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 5: we shall all take a hint and meet a horse.

599
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the connectivity I think also that is just

600
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: sort of there's reciprocity in that connectivity.

601
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 3: So how grounding that must be.

602
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 4: And it takes time. It's it's you have to have

603
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 4: a lot of patience and they don't necessarily choose you

604
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,720
Speaker 4: just because you've chosen them. So I spent a lot

605
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 4: of time just working on him and until until he

606
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 4: finally is like now now he waits for me at

607
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 4: the gate two years.

608
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 1: I would imagine even in your work, even with the

609
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: cases that we've just been discussing.

610
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:30,879
Speaker 3: Too, it's a slow, long game.

611
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 1: You're developing a relationship with somebody who's you know, even

612
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 1: in VTK and Dennis Raider like they they you know,

613
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: they have it all figured out until it's slow and steady, and.

614
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 4: All the serial killers always ask about Sonny, is that right?

615
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 3: Why do you think that's the case. It's so interesting

616
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 3: to me.

617
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 4: I just think they it's a side of me they

618
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 4: don't get to see, and and it's something that I

619
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 4: love talking about. So I think when when they talk

620
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 4: with me and the phone or something, they want to

621
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 4: know you know that part has a farm snow there?

622
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 4: What's going on?

623
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 7: Gee?

624
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 1: Can I ask this one very again basic question? But

625
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 1: I'm just I'd be remiss not to when you are

626
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 1: in the presence in somebody who has taken lives or

627
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: one life or many lives, in the cases that you

628
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,399
Speaker 1: have in fact worked on. Even just hearing that there's

629
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 1: so many worse than BTK that you've studied, of course

630
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:27,800
Speaker 1: I want to talk to you a thousand hours about

631
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: those as well.

632
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 3: Do you get scared?

633
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,479
Speaker 4: I do not get scared, And I do think there's

634
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 4: something about me because I hitchicked across the country when

635
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 4: I was eighteen and rode a motorcycle across and I

636
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 4: was nineteen, So I think there's something about me that's

637
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:49,240
Speaker 4: probably abnormal that fearless. I don't know if I fear less,

638
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 4: but I think my fear is probably much more tolerant

639
00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 4: of things and more ready to go into two things

640
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 4: that maybe other people are afraid of. So I'm not

641
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,760
Speaker 4: afraid of working with these these guys.

642
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 1: I must sense that in you as well, which probably

643
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 1: brings a real level of comfort or authenticity that maybe

644
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: isn't seen elsewhere.

645
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 4: Well, I think the most important thing with them is

646
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 4: a data ont judgment, sure, and that you know all

647
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 4: of them will say that. I think that's that's that

648
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 4: phenomenology thing. You have to be able to bracket your

649
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 4: judgments when someone's telling you horrible things that they've done.

650
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 4: I think that's the most important thing, if if you

651
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 4: want to be able to establish a rapport where they

652
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 4: are going to feel comfortable talking with you.

653
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 6: I wanted to switch subjects real quick and talk about

654
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 6: maybe some modern trends in modern offenders. And you know,

655
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,320
Speaker 6: we're you know, the rise of the internet means something

656
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 6: I'm very big into and something I'm fairly well known

657
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 6: for and and whatnot. In I think modern offenders in

658
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 6: today's age might be a little bit more driven by

659
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 6: different things than they were in the past, and I

660
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 6: wanted to talk to you about that. I thought was okay,

661
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 6: what emerging patterns, if any, What emerging patterns in modern

662
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:19,720
Speaker 6: offenders concern you the most?

663
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 3: If any?

664
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 6: Some that come to mind are like in cell driven,

665
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 6: there's now a lot of rage baits on the internet

666
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 6: for political reasons. Are there is there one like stream

667
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 6: in modern offending that concerns you the most?

668
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,240
Speaker 4: Yeah? I think I think anger and humiliation don't get

669
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 4: enough attention in terms of as motivators, and in cell

670
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 4: is obviously very anger driven. Yeah, I think we need

671
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 4: to know more about that, because because so many of

672
00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 4: our social media influencers know that anger is a great manipulator.

673
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 4: If you get people angry enough, they you know, you

674
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 4: can twist that emotion and get them to do things

675
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 4: that maybe they would never think to do on their own.

676
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 4: So yeah, I think there's whole movements that we should

677
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 4: be alarmed about. But I think if you're talking about

678
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 4: lone killers individual serial killers, we're still seeing a lot

679
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 4: of the same things that we used to see. But

680
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 4: maybe they're getting more sophisticated because it's a lot easier

681
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 4: to watch, you know, a show than it is to

682
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 4: read a medical textbook, for example. They're getting more sophisticated

683
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 4: about the kinds of things they need to watch out

684
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 4: for and the kinds of things that cops are using.

685
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 4: They're aware there's more CCTV cameras everywhere, They're now more

686
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 4: aware of the IgG the genetic genealogy investigations. So I

687
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 4: think they're being more careful, but they're still driven by fantasy.

688
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 4: They're still driven, but there's a lot of anger are

689
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 4: threaded in that fantasy.

690
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 5: And I have a question in the same sort of

691
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 5: lane in speaking, we've all been doing a bunch of

692
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,280
Speaker 5: work on the topic of in cells, and in speaking

693
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 5: with sort of some prosecutors, something that they pointed out

694
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 5: was a quicker escalation time, whereas in the past, like

695
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,760
Speaker 5: people instead of simmering for you know, days, weeks, years,

696
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 5: it's it's just very quickly that people seem to escalate

697
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 5: to violence.

698
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 3: And then also.

699
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 5: That a lot of the sort of the lone wolf

700
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 5: they don't seem to care if they're caught. In fact,

701
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 5: they want to go down in a blaze of glory.

702
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,839
Speaker 5: And I don't know if that's because they.

703
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 4: If they're mission driven, as some of the in cells

704
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 4: have been. Yeah, they you're right, they want to be

705
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 4: out there because they think they're going to inspire a

706
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 4: lot more of the same. Turns out they're wrong because

707
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 4: they don't do that. They think they're going to be

708
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 4: part of some big revolution and it's mission driven. So

709
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 4: that's why they don't care if they're caught, because they

710
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 4: think it's all part of the package.

711
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 1: Which is so interesting even for law enforcement because even

712
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: speaking of in cells, it's also so hard to monitor

713
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 1: a lone wolf online, right, so we're not even seeing

714
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 1: big groupings or clusters or protesters or sort of behaviors

715
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:31,439
Speaker 1: that can be tracked, you know, it becomes a little

716
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: bit more innocuous.

717
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, it's one thing to sit around in

718
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 4: a chat room and grouse about this and that, and

719
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 4: it's another thing to get yourself prepared to go do

720
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,280
Speaker 4: you know, go on some school campus or movie theater

721
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 4: instead of shooting people.

722
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 3: Exactly right.

723
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 6: But if you're the kind of person that we're talking about,

724
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 6: like maybe that gets amped up quickly or has all

725
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 6: this anger built up, those people contributing in those chat

726
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 6: rooms are just kind of like amping that person up.

727
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 4: Right, it's almost honestification, giving them a pication. And this

728
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 4: really does go back into their childhoods quite often. Again,

729
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 4: I go back to humiliation being understudied because they have

730
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 4: felt humiliated and now they have a frame for it,

731
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 4: and they have other people saying, oh, yeah, I know

732
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 4: exactly that feels like, and here's what you should do

733
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 4: about it. And some of them are vulnerable enough to

734
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,760
Speaker 4: think that they should do something and feel absolutely justified

735
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:30,839
Speaker 4: in doing it.

736
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:34,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's it's it's so scary.

737
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 1: But again, I think the more we talk about or

738
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,879
Speaker 1: learn about it, it really does sort of I don't

739
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 1: want to I don't know what the word is to

740
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 1: use exactly. It's not compartmentalized, but it's sort of I

741
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 1: like your analogy of just being able to let the

742
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 1: phenomenon take place, or you know, like a wave. You

743
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 1: can't really predict any of it. You have to kind

744
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 1: of go with that flow and accept things for how

745
00:41:57,719 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: they are.

746
00:41:58,800 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 7: Yeah.

747
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 4: I mean, if you were to look at the interrogation

748
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 4: of Manassian, for example, Alec Mnassian in Canada, who is

749
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 4: following Elliott Roger, you know, Saint Elliott Roger, supreme gentleman,

750
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 4: and so he takes his this vehicle and rams it

751
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 4: into people and thinking he's justified, and watching his interrogation,

752
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,840
Speaker 4: how confused he is that people don't understand why this

753
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,279
Speaker 4: isn't the right thing to have done, and that he's

754
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,479
Speaker 4: sure it's going to be followed with other people doing

755
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 4: it all over the place. So you can just see

756
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,919
Speaker 4: that this is a vulnerable mind who got filled with

757
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,319
Speaker 4: you know, what other people thought he should do, and

758
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 4: then he took it and did something with it, and

759
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 4: now he's going to spend his life in prison wondering

760
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 4: what happened.

761
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 3: What went wrong? I mean, you know, I would even

762
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 3: go so far.

763
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: You know this is a single killing allegedly allegedly alleged

764
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: even with Luigi Mangion, for example, you know that was

765
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 1: purpose based, right, if what accused of and if that

766
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 1: manifesto was meaningful, Like, what impact does the purpose actually

767
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 1: have when all is said and done, And what a

768
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,240
Speaker 1: strange feeling that must be today as you're really facing

769
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 1: the music. Is there any advice or anything just as

770
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: a human being.

771
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:17,400
Speaker 3: In the world.

772
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned philosophy and your study of and

773
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 1: obviously forensics and criminology.

774
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:25,280
Speaker 3: Is there any advice you.

775
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 1: Have for us just to kind of navigate the world

776
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 1: in the best way and safest way possible?

777
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:35,959
Speaker 3: Voted question. Doctor Catherine.

778
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 4: Wrote, A motorcycle cross the country without knowing how to ride.

779
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:42,439
Speaker 3: No, it's okay.

780
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 1: I just out of an airplane or two and have

781
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:46,359
Speaker 1: found myself in some sticky situations.

782
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 3: So that is a very human experience. That just shows

783
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,320
Speaker 3: that you play all in. I think you.

784
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 4: Watch your back, you careful of who you allow to

785
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 4: approach you, who you open your door to who. I

786
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 4: don't know. It's hard to generalize it is. I'd have

787
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 4: to see what your specific situation is like. If I

788
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 4: entered your home. I'd be able to say you should

789
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 4: do this or that, but it's too hard to.

790
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 3: Get that very safe ust assured. But you know, just

791
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 3: as we navigate or.

792
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 4: Even just the problem is, if people are really good

793
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 4: at seeming normal, you're not going to spot right issues.

794
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 4: You're not going to spot what they're thinking. If they

795
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,359
Speaker 4: target you, they're going to be very careful to make

796
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,439
Speaker 4: sure you don't suspect until too late.

797
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:39,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's so fair. It's so so fair. It's so scary.

798
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 6: Doctor Katherin Ramslin, thank you so much for spending this

799
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 6: hour with us. Your insight is incredible and invaluable, and

800
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:47,479
Speaker 6: I know that I'm going to take it to heart

801
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 6: moving forward for listeners who want more of her, newest book,

802
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 6: You Can't Hide, is out now and it's a fascinating

803
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,800
Speaker 6: look at the psychology behind the fenders. We're so grateful

804
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 6: you have joined us tonight. Thank you so so much

805
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 6: from all of us.

806
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: We admire you, thank you to definitely marry you, and

807
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 1: we reference your work quite often.

808
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 3: Thank you.

809
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 6: Coming up, forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan breaks down the

810
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 6: latest in the Luigi case and what investigators are uncovering

811
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 6: in the David investigation into the death of the fourteen

812
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 6: year old celest Breevus Fernandez.

813
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 1: Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

814
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

815
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 1: Courtney Armstrong. We have Taha in the control room, and

816
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, our very favorite forensics expert, also the

817
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 1: host of the hit podcast body Bags, is here to

818
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 1: break down some of the cases that we've been covering

819
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 1: throughout the week from a forensic standpoint. Joseph, there has

820
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 1: been so many times in the last five days that

821
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 1: we've said, why didn't we ask Joseph that?

822
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 3: Why we asked Joseph that?

823
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:05,240
Speaker 1: So we've kind of been stacking in a few different categories. Obviously,

824
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 1: one of the cases that we've been following so closely

825
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: has been this Brian Walsh case. He's the accused wife

826
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,760
Speaker 1: killer who is now standing trial of his wife Anna.

827
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 3: Very wild week in court, but at.

828
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 1: Its core, it seems as though he's basically saying, look,

829
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 1: she died of something unexpected, an unexpected death, and I

830
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 1: knew she was dead because she tipped over when I

831
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 1: touched her and rolled off the bed trigger alert. This

832
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:36,359
Speaker 1: is a little heroin and then I panicked, and I

833
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:40,760
Speaker 1: didn't want my children to have to face the reality

834
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 1: that their mother was gone. So he took it upon himself,

835
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 1: which he's now admitted to, to dismember her body and

836
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 1: take versions of those body parts and place them all

837
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 1: around his area, including in a dumpster allegedly close to

838
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 1: his mother's house.

839
00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 3: That's all I got.

840
00:46:58,200 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 1: Court can give us a little bit more on the

841
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 1: case specifics, but what the we.

842
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:04,800
Speaker 3: Have to talk about this, Joseph.

843
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 5: We do have so many questions and just to get

844
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 5: a lay of the land. So the murder trial of

845
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 5: accused Massachusetts wife killer Brian Walsh has continued this entire

846
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 5: past week. Jurors now have seen gruesome forensic evidence. It's

847
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 5: been pulled from a trash facility as well as the

848
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 5: family volvo. This includes, I mean, it is quite a list.

849
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 5: It includes a blood stained clothing, a tievek suit, tools,

850
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 5: pieces of a rug and all of this while a

851
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,919
Speaker 5: state please crime lab scientists walks them through how each

852
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 5: of those items were documented and what they might say

853
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 5: about the disappearance as well as the presumed killing of

854
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 5: Anna Walsh. Who is of course accused murderer Brian Walsh's

855
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:57,360
Speaker 5: now deceased wife. So alongside that, there's been digital forensic

856
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 5: experts that have laid out Brian's extensive online searches about

857
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 5: body disposal, decomposition and cleaning DNA. But what do you

858
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:12,279
Speaker 5: think should we start with the physical forensics such as

859
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:16,439
Speaker 5: the bloody cloths? What, Joseph, what are the thoughts about

860
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 5: the tibex suit, the goggles, the cutting tools, bloody rug pieces.

861
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, thanks for having me tonight, guys. We love you

862
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 7: with you. Oh, I love you guys. Y'all are the best.

863
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 7: You know what it says to me because so many

864
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 7: of these memberment cases that I cover either on my

865
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 7: podcasts or on natural news platforms, they're always so incredibly disorganized.

866
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 7: This guy had a plan and I cannot tell you.

867
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 7: I think that probably out of all of the cases

868
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 7: that I have covered relative to dismemberment, this is the

869
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 7: first one where taibek suit has been involved.

870
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 3: Wow.

871
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 7: Yeah, And you know that's something for those that don't know.

872
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:02,800
Speaker 7: You know, that's something in forensics that we wear and

873
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 7: we kind of a little aside. We refer to them

874
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 7: as bunny suits. And if you've never been in one.

875
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 7: You lose about five pounds of waterway, you know, when

876
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 7: you're working in one of these things. So he's gotten

877
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 7: his hands on one of these things as preparation because

878
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 7: he understands something very from an elemental level about forensics.

879
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 7: You begin to think about transfer, transfer of any kind

880
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 7: of biological evidence, you know, like on either his clothing

881
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 7: that he has, or on his person, you know, just

882
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 7: the bare skin. He was thinking about that also goggles.

883
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:44,720
Speaker 7: I find that interesting because goggles most of the time

884
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 7: when we work in the lab. I know, just in

885
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 7: my morgue that I have at my university. I and

886
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 7: my kids wear eye protection. Do you know why, Because

887
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 7: there's a splash factor involved. Anything can transfer into your eyes.

888
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 7: Had he thought that far ahead, you know, and so

889
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 7: that brings us to whatever tools that they may have recovered,

890
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 7: the utility of those tools, How is he going to

891
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:14,320
Speaker 7: be used in them? Because he's he's obviously thinking about

892
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 7: this transferring onto his person, not just his clothing, but

893
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 7: back into his face. That's amazing to me because when

894
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:26,800
Speaker 7: you begin to think about premeditative events, this is a hallmark,

895
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 7: you know, this is a hallmark.

896
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 1: Here is it possible at this point, once a body

897
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 1: is dismembered, as he's claiming he did. This is Brian

898
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 1: Welsh the husband, because there's a couple of exacerbating factors

899
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 1: here when there's nobody right, so you know, to this

900
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 1: moment on his body has not been found. He's admitting

901
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 1: that he dismembered it out of panic. He did not

902
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,879
Speaker 1: kill her, in his opinion, but rather disposed of her.

903
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:55,319
Speaker 1: Is there's no universe now if in fact Anna makes

904
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 1: you rest in peace has in fact been dismembered, We're

905
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:03,399
Speaker 1: never getting the body right, so this becomes some kind

906
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 1: of a version of do people believe him or not?

907
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 1: You know, I it's hard to get convictions without a body.

908
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 1: We thought it was incredible that somebody would have the

909
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 1: nerve to say I had nothing to do with her murder.

910
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 1: Yet I dismembered her body. And then yet even this

911
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 1: week we've heard audio tapes of him leading messages for

912
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 1: the person that she was allegedly seeing, and how calm

913
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 1: and cool.

914
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 3: He was in the days thereafter. After an event like this,

915
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 3: it's impossible to believe.

916
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 1: But without a body, is it possible that he might

917
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 1: only get a couple of years Because the partes are

918
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 1: so just different.

919
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 7: It's very, very difficult. There's a Latin term that I

920
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:49,840
Speaker 7: love that the courts uses corpus delecti. Many people have

921
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:52,800
Speaker 7: heard that term, and it means body of the crime.

922
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 7: Sometimes I will use it in conversation relative to human remains,

923
00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 7: because absent the corpus delecti, the body, and the body

924
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 7: is the evidence here, right. I'm not trying to be

925
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:05,800
Speaker 7: disrespectful by saying that, but it is the core element

926
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:11,319
Speaker 7: of this case, because they're in like essential elements. First off,

927
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 7: we have to think about the cod the cause of death.

928
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 7: You know, how exactly did she die? One fascinating aspect

929
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 7: of this and I found this when defense opened. They

930
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:27,719
Speaker 7: actually implied, they implied at least that she had died

931
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 7: as a result of something that's referred to in some

932
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:35,879
Speaker 7: circles as sudden adult death syndrome or and you've heard

933
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 7: of SIDS. So what they're implying is this healthy, she

934
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 7: appears to be the picture of health, just suddenly drops

935
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 7: over graveyard debt and he happens to be there, and

936
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 7: he's trying to save his children. The horror of all

937
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:54,400
Speaker 7: of this, so we cannot there's no way to prove

938
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 7: that because we can't examine the remains. You know, we'd

939
00:52:57,760 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 7: look at the brain, we'd look at the lungs, we'd

940
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 7: look at the heart, all of those sorts of little

941
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 7: things there that's gone. And the other part of this

942
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:10,360
Speaker 7: is the evidence that's left behind that connects the tools

943
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 7: that he used on her body. Okay, so again this

944
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 7: is very graphic, and I'll try to be gentle with this,

945
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 7: But when you think about if folks at home will

946
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:26,799
Speaker 7: think about taking a traditional carpenter saw and sawing a

947
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 7: piece of lumber many times, and I know a lot

948
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:32,400
Speaker 7: of people have experienced this. Have you ever started sawing

949
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:33,719
Speaker 7: a piece of wood and all of a sudden it

950
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 7: jumps out of the groove and you have to start

951
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 7: over again. Did you know that that happens in dismemberment?

952
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 7: And so every time that metallic body touches that surface,

953
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 7: that firm surface, it leaves a mark, It leads a

954
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 7: mark that is unique to a specific tool. So absence

955
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:58,319
Speaker 7: the body, we had nothing to compare it to. All

956
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 7: we have is this memory of this one. We have

957
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:03,520
Speaker 7: his statement where he says that she was in fact dead,

958
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 7: but scientifically, how did she come to her end? And

959
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 7: that's the crux of this whole thing, you know, was

960
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 7: she strangled? Did she have a massive heart attack? Did

961
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 7: a meteor fall out of the sky and strike her

962
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 7: in the head? I don't know, But absent the corpus DELECTI,

963
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:25,400
Speaker 7: that'll be a question that will remain unanswered unless you know,

964
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 7: like man from Heaven, knowledge falls in the midst of

965
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:29,279
Speaker 7: us all of a sudden.

966
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:33,440
Speaker 8: Brian, he's claiming that she died of sudden unexplained death,

967
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:37,360
Speaker 8: which I've never heard that term before. Are you familiar

968
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:39,400
Speaker 8: with that? And then I think you've answered some of this,

969
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:42,799
Speaker 8: But is there a world where something like that, like,

970
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:44,759
Speaker 8: is there enough of a body part left where we

971
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 8: can figure out whether or not she did die of

972
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 8: this unusual debth?

973
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:50,399
Speaker 3: No, that's not.

974
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 1: Even a thing like, Joseph, I have to assume. I'm

975
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 1: just going to jump in for one second. There is

976
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 1: no way that that is an actual term. It's literally

977
00:54:59,880 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 1: a the equivalent of me saying, oh my goodness, the

978
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:05,800
Speaker 1: person I love they just died of the I don't

979
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 1: know what disease that's commonly seen in this part of

980
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 1: the land.

981
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:13,440
Speaker 7: No, let me pause you there. I used to work

982
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:16,520
Speaker 7: with an old pathologist and he and there were cases

983
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 7: I worked with him, and he was one of these

984
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 7: kind of country old country docs, and he used to say,

985
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:28,960
Speaker 7: God called, and there are these cases where there's some

986
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:32,239
Speaker 7: kind of pathological process that takes place that you still

987
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:35,919
Speaker 7: can't discover, you know, and you're left scratching your head.

988
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:39,480
Speaker 7: And oh, by the bye. You have to understand that

989
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 7: cardio respiratory arrest is not a cause of death. A

990
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:45,960
Speaker 7: lot of people will sign death certificates that way. That's

991
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 7: not a cause of death. That's a mechanism. There's a

992
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 7: causal factor that underpins all this. But yes, there is

993
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:56,759
Speaker 7: in fact a world where a sudden adult death syndrome

994
00:55:56,880 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 7: does happen and there's no explanation, just like precious little

995
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:02,239
Speaker 7: babies that Dov SAIDs And.

996
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 3: By the way, we wouldn't be able to buy the bye.

997
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 1: You're my favorite when you say that, you're the only

998
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 1: person that I say bye the bye with. But by

999
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 1: the bye, by the bye, it's unprovable, right, so it

1000
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 1: just leaving doubt at the bare minimum. This guy's you know,

1001
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:18,520
Speaker 1: this guy's a fraud of an art dealer. He certainly

1002
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 1: isn't a medical examiner or a physician to be able

1003
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 1: to make that distinction.

1004
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 3: Why wouldn't he call nine to one one.

1005
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:27,520
Speaker 7: You know, I got to tell you I'm a cynic.

1006
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:30,960
Speaker 7: As you guys know, I'll try to be a happy cynic. However,

1007
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 7: I got to tell you somebody did some reading prior

1008
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:39,880
Speaker 7: to preparing this opening statement. Okay, because now the cat's

1009
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:41,959
Speaker 7: out of the bag. You've n leashed this thing into

1010
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 7: the court. It's in the record now. The people that

1011
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:46,920
Speaker 7: are trying the case have heard it. The people that

1012
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:49,719
Speaker 7: are hearing the case have heard it, so that little

1013
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 7: kernel is planted in their brain. What's going to be

1014
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:56,799
Speaker 7: very interesting from a defense standpoint. Are they going to

1015
00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:01,480
Speaker 7: put up a cardiopulmonary position that will come in or

1016
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 7: maybe their own pathologists that we'll talk about sudden adult

1017
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:09,080
Speaker 7: death syndrome for instance. Is it possible, doctor, that someone

1018
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 7: can suddenly die? You see, now you've shifted, You've created

1019
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:17,120
Speaker 7: that doubt, and now you're just Now he becomes a

1020
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 7: sympathetic character. He didn't want to injure his kids. He

1021
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:24,680
Speaker 7: didn't want to scar them any further, So he dismembers, Mom,

1022
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 7: I don't know, it's beyond the pail. As far as

1023
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 7: i'm concerned.

1024
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 5: It's beyond the baill and this has been in my

1025
00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:34,440
Speaker 5: crawl all week long, and now I'm.

1026
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 3: So glad we got to speak with you.

1027
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 5: We spoke to a legal expert earlier this week because

1028
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:41,840
Speaker 5: it seems so egregious. But listen, this is true crime

1029
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 5: tonight and we are lucky enough to be here with

1030
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:48,360
Speaker 5: forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan. We're talking about accused Massachusetts

1031
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 5: wife killer Brian Walsh. If you have any thoughts, particularly

1032
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 5: about the alleged sudden, unexplained death, let us know, hit

1033
00:57:57,080 --> 00:58:00,720
Speaker 5: us up on the talkbacks and the iHeartRadio app. Joseph,

1034
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 5: we were talking earlier about not just the fact that

1035
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:10,040
Speaker 5: Brian Walsh purchased goggles, he also went so far as

1036
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 5: to purchase booties so foot productive wear as well. And

1037
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 5: I just wanted to lay out so we have the information.

1038
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 5: The the tools that he brought include a hammer, a hatchet,

1039
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 5: hack saw, shears, wire, snaps and tape.

1040
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 3: It's like it is, it's just like a Long Island serial.

1041
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 1: Killer list like this is that is a real horrifying

1042
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:36,959
Speaker 1: scary list.

1043
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:39,680
Speaker 3: And according to your point, murder a murder kit, a

1044
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:40,439
Speaker 3: murder kit.

1045
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 1: Seeing it laid out as evidence on the white sheet.

1046
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:46,720
Speaker 1: And when you see it laid out that way like this,

1047
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 1: this is like what you see in the scariest movie

1048
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:49,440
Speaker 1: you've ever watched.

1049
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:53,800
Speaker 7: Yeah, it is. And I'm thinking about utility here. I'm

1050
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 7: wondering what made him Why did he think that he

1051
00:58:57,280 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 7: needed non power tools. I'll put it to you that way,

1052
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:02,560
Speaker 7: because it's far more efficient to use something like a

1053
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 7: skill saw or saws. All that you see with the

1054
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:09,240
Speaker 7: the agitating blade goes back and forth, you know, and

1055
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 7: you'll cut, you know, sheet rock out with it, and

1056
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:15,080
Speaker 7: you use all kinds of things. Ten snips are very interesting,

1057
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 7: sheet metal shears, those sorts of things. He knows that

1058
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:22,120
Speaker 7: there's work to be done, and you know, he doesn't

1059
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:25,480
Speaker 7: occupy the same space that myself and colleagues such as

1060
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:28,480
Speaker 7: myself understand. You go into the morgue and we have

1061
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:32,120
Speaker 7: a very specific set of tools that we use. I'm

1062
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 7: not channeling Liam Neeson there by the way. There there

1063
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 7: is a specific set of tools that we use that

1064
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:41,960
Speaker 7: we've learned to use for you know, a couple of

1065
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:45,440
Speaker 7: centuries now, and they all have utility and they make

1066
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:49,320
Speaker 7: clean cuts. You're talking about y'all y'all are talking about

1067
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 7: a hacket here. Just let that sink in just for

1068
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 7: a second. Okay, this, yes, it's a sharp, forced tool,

1069
00:59:57,040 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 7: but there's also a blunting effect with this, so you've

1070
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:03,439
Speaker 7: got rushing that's going on as well. Does he have

1071
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 7: any kind of history of butchery? That's that's a question

1072
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,320
Speaker 7: that's been asked for years and years about cases. Even

1073
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:12,560
Speaker 7: you know, if you go back to Jack the Ripper,

1074
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:14,480
Speaker 7: you know that people talk about, well, he may have

1075
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:16,480
Speaker 7: been a surgeon or a barber, and these sorts of

1076
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:23,320
Speaker 7: things understanding human anatomy. Again, this circling back, This brings

1077
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:27,800
Speaker 7: us to this idea of preparation. And if that doesn't

1078
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:31,720
Speaker 7: send a chill up your spine and everyone that's listening

1079
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:35,520
Speaker 7: and following this case, I really don't know what would.

1080
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 5: Well, a chill has certainly gone up my spine. Thank

1081
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 5: you very much for breaking that down with your expertise.

1082
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 5: We appreciate it so much. And listen, stick around because

1083
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 5: forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan will be with us and

1084
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:50,920
Speaker 5: we're going to be digging into the forensics into the

1085
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:54,840
Speaker 5: David the Pop Star and Selestreevas and Randez case.

1086
01:00:55,080 --> 01:01:02,840
Speaker 3: True crime tonight.

1087
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,280
Speaker 1: Welcome back to true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We've been

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01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 1: talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here

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01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:18,120
Speaker 1: with Courtney Armstrong. Listen, we have Taha stepping in to

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01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:22,120
Speaker 1: the microphone straight from the control room. And as always

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01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 1: on Sunday nights, we have our most favorite forensics expert,

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01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan hosted the Hit body Bags podcast. If

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01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:32,520
Speaker 1: you haven't listened, you have to listen. He has three

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01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:35,960
Speaker 1: episodes a week and again, the way you break down forensics,

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01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:39,520
Speaker 1: Joseph is clearly like no other. We've been talking about

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01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:44,520
Speaker 1: the Brian Walsh accused wife killer case and we've gotten

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01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:47,120
Speaker 1: some dms and some questions, and I know Courtney has

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01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:50,360
Speaker 1: some burning ones still too, So why don't we just

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01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:53,560
Speaker 1: jam through as many forensics questions as we can.

1100
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:56,680
Speaker 5: So just a little bit more information that came out

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01:01:56,680 --> 01:02:00,120
Speaker 5: and trial that we'd love clarity on from you. So

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01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:03,240
Speaker 5: things in addition to the tools we talked about and

1103
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:08,960
Speaker 5: the TIEC protective clothing, things such as hydrogen peroxide, sponges,

1104
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:14,439
Speaker 5: wipes and other cleaning related materials came up. So this

1105
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:19,400
Speaker 5: is also in addition to some digital forensics which talks

1106
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:22,160
Speaker 5: about Google search is about not only the best way

1107
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:25,640
Speaker 5: to dispose of a body, but how long DNA lasts,

1108
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:29,640
Speaker 5: whether you can identify someone from partial remains, and what

1109
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:34,960
Speaker 5: cleaners will remove DNA from wood floors. What information sticks

1110
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:36,680
Speaker 5: in your medical mind that we don't know.

1111
01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:39,720
Speaker 7: Well, I'll put it to you this way. We're recovering

1112
01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:42,320
Speaker 7: DNA all human remains that have been dead for a

1113
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 7: thousand years now, So no, no, you can't if you

1114
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:50,760
Speaker 7: find human remains. Now, the question is how viable is it?

1115
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:53,840
Speaker 7: All right? So let's just say that we recover are

1116
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:55,760
Speaker 7: they not? We I don't have to do it anymore.

1117
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:59,439
Speaker 7: I just get to talk about it. That's the best thing.

1118
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 7: Let's just say that we recover a dental element like

1119
01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:06,440
Speaker 7: a tooth, I compare teeth. Okay, this is why I

1120
01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:08,680
Speaker 7: do it now. This is kind of a little mini

1121
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:13,560
Speaker 7: crime lab. If you think about bones, all right, bones

1122
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:17,880
Speaker 7: are a leather breathcase for carrying and transporting DNA information,

1123
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:22,000
Speaker 7: and it's beautiful, it works very very well. Okay, However,

1124
01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:27,960
Speaker 7: teeth are like a titanium breathcase for carrying DNA. So

1125
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:31,439
Speaker 7: because they're self contained, teeth are not bone. So let's

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01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:34,440
Speaker 7: just say, for grins and giggles, that we recover a

1127
01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:38,120
Speaker 7: tooth and we're just talking a tooth. That's not necessarily

1128
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:40,360
Speaker 7: going to point you in the direction of a cause

1129
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:44,680
Speaker 7: of death. However, it is an element that could lead

1130
01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:48,240
Speaker 7: to that could lead to an identification. Okay, not to

1131
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:51,760
Speaker 7: mention if you had a tooth. If we continue this logic,

1132
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:54,040
Speaker 7: this train of logic, we think about any kind of

1133
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:56,400
Speaker 7: restorations that are done on a tooths. What'sh you known

1134
01:03:56,440 --> 01:04:00,280
Speaker 7: to have cavity that was filled or partial, or was

1135
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:04,120
Speaker 7: there crown or anything you know that might end up

1136
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:08,760
Speaker 7: that way. She's been gone sometime now, and i'd actually,

1137
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:11,880
Speaker 7: I think it leads and forgive me. I don't know

1138
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:14,840
Speaker 7: if I'm completely accurate, but I had heard about this

1139
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:21,440
Speaker 7: idea of placing remains in trash cans and they may

1140
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:26,680
Speaker 7: have been conveyed somewhere. I'm thinking landfill. Landfills are horror

1141
01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:29,560
Speaker 7: shows for recovery of remains. I've had to do it

1142
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:32,000
Speaker 7: a couple of times. It's something that it would be

1143
01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:34,120
Speaker 7: on my top ten list of things I would not

1144
01:04:34,160 --> 01:04:37,200
Speaker 7: want to repeat in my life because it's an absolute nightmare.

1145
01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:40,720
Speaker 7: That is what referred to as an aerobic environment. You

1146
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:44,840
Speaker 7: have anaerobic and aerobic. Think about aerobics doing oxygen I

1147
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:49,880
Speaker 7: mean doing exercise, you're driving oxygen in that oxygenated environment.

1148
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:54,919
Speaker 7: At a molecular level, everything is in a state of kay.

1149
01:04:55,040 --> 01:04:57,960
Speaker 7: So it breaks down very very difficult even if you

1150
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:01,520
Speaker 7: can find it, and it's compact that the question is

1151
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:04,440
Speaker 7: where all of her remains disposed of in that manner?

1152
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:06,920
Speaker 7: It seems rather convenient, you know, in order to do it,

1153
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:09,040
Speaker 7: and we've covered a lot of cases over the years

1154
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:12,200
Speaker 7: where that has in fact happened, and remains are not

1155
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:15,000
Speaker 7: always found because you will have people that will say, yeah,

1156
01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:17,120
Speaker 7: you know, they roll over them and say, yeah, you know,

1157
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:20,000
Speaker 7: I disposed of the remains in a trash can the

1158
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:23,160
Speaker 7: trans trash can was conveyed. We could do an entire

1159
01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:27,480
Speaker 7: dissertation on how landfills work because it's incredible, I mean,

1160
01:05:27,680 --> 01:05:29,720
Speaker 7: the volume that they have to deal with. Then we

1161
01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:32,680
Speaker 7: think about these other elements that are left behind. I

1162
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:37,919
Speaker 7: think it scenes you know you had mentioned about cleaning supplies. Yeah,

1163
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:40,680
Speaker 7: they worked to a certain degree, but when you get

1164
01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:44,960
Speaker 7: these agents like blue star and of course famously luminol

1165
01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:48,880
Speaker 7: that's reactive with blood and it only lasts for a second,

1166
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 7: by the way, I think people think that it will

1167
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:52,200
Speaker 7: just stay there forever and ever and glow. It doesn't.

1168
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:54,280
Speaker 7: You have to have your camera ready and the lights

1169
01:05:54,280 --> 01:05:58,760
Speaker 7: are off when you snap that image because it fades.

1170
01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:03,280
Speaker 1: Hands what you put in like a black and white photo.

1171
01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:07,440
Speaker 1: I'm imagining that it takes the crime scene blood and

1172
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:08,960
Speaker 1: it illuminates it so you can.

1173
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:11,160
Speaker 3: See a highlighter in a black room.

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01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:15,880
Speaker 7: It is, And actually it's got kind of grotesque, I know,

1175
01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:17,840
Speaker 7: but it's got kind of a lovely glow to it.

1176
01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:21,520
Speaker 7: It's it's almost a blue illuminescence, if you will. And

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01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:26,320
Speaker 7: it's striking when you see it. And dependent upon the

1178
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 7: dynamics of the deposition, you can see patterns. You can

1179
01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:34,160
Speaker 7: see footprints, you can see arterial spray, you can see

1180
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:37,920
Speaker 7: swipes and wipes, Okay, like if somebody's trying to clean up,

1181
01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:40,680
Speaker 7: you'll see if you guys have if anyone at home

1182
01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:43,640
Speaker 7: has ever had like they've used a mop, like an

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01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:47,440
Speaker 7: old string mob that's filthy, okay, And you're trying to

1184
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:49,880
Speaker 7: clean your floors and you look down the floor and

1185
01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:51,840
Speaker 7: it's like, oh my god, it's like a mud hole

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01:06:51,880 --> 01:06:55,280
Speaker 7: on my floor. Now because mop is filthy. It actually

1187
01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:58,880
Speaker 7: looks that way many times the mop strings do and

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01:06:58,920 --> 01:07:00,920
Speaker 7: you'll see that in smears where people have gone over

1189
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:04,520
Speaker 7: and tried to clean it. It doesn't completely eradicate it. However,

1190
01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:08,440
Speaker 7: the more chemicals you apply to it, it degrades it.

1191
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:11,919
Speaker 7: And the further out in time you go, how much

1192
01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:14,480
Speaker 7: more so. So you're talking about things like potentially bleach,

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01:07:14,520 --> 01:07:17,760
Speaker 7: hydrogen peroxide, and there are other agents. And on a

1194
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:19,800
Speaker 7: show like this, I'm not going to go into everything

1195
01:07:19,840 --> 01:07:23,760
Speaker 7: I know, okay to talk about eradication of evidence that

1196
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:27,240
Speaker 7: that wouldn't be cool. But I'm just I'm just saying

1197
01:07:28,080 --> 01:07:33,160
Speaker 7: people always miss something. It's such a messy affair, and

1198
01:07:33,240 --> 01:07:36,920
Speaker 7: most people that commit dismemberments don't understand that going in.

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01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:39,920
Speaker 7: That's why you wind up with partial dismemberments because they

1200
01:07:40,000 --> 01:07:41,680
Speaker 7: get in the middle of it and they're like they've

1201
01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:43,240
Speaker 7: got one foot in the boat and one foot in

1202
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:45,120
Speaker 7: the water. They don't know what to do at that

1203
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:48,000
Speaker 7: point in time because it's an absolute nightmare.

1204
01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:51,320
Speaker 1: It is the absolute last place that a brain should

1205
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:53,720
Speaker 1: go too. I mean, of all of the options that

1206
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:57,680
Speaker 1: were on accused wife killer Brian Walsh's list are on

1207
01:07:57,800 --> 01:08:01,240
Speaker 1: his menu if you will, Hey, call authorities.

1208
01:08:01,320 --> 01:08:03,480
Speaker 3: Perhaps she can be saved. And there's a medical reason

1209
01:08:03,560 --> 01:08:04,600
Speaker 3: that something has happened.

1210
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:07,880
Speaker 1: B call a loved one and then nine one one

1211
01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:10,200
Speaker 1: in a medical authority because you're concerned that your wife

1212
01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:12,800
Speaker 1: may have been you know, maybe she had an aneurysm

1213
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:16,479
Speaker 1: or something sudden has happened. That is petrifying and so scary.

1214
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:18,880
Speaker 1: The idea that you're now going to say that your

1215
01:08:19,080 --> 01:08:23,439
Speaker 1: wife is never going to be found for your children

1216
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:27,120
Speaker 1: to put them at rest, the idea in Joseph, you

1217
01:08:27,160 --> 01:08:30,720
Speaker 1: and I talk about this stuff offline so often. The

1218
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:34,719
Speaker 1: reach to go straight to dismemberment in the human mind,

1219
01:08:35,280 --> 01:08:38,439
Speaker 1: I think is a really crucial piece of the story.

1220
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:42,400
Speaker 1: That is a leap that is not that burying somebody

1221
01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:46,400
Speaker 1: in the ground is better, but of all the better

1222
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:49,559
Speaker 1: things and all the scary, horrendous things at this point,

1223
01:08:50,160 --> 01:08:53,920
Speaker 1: going there is even the scariest of all things.

1224
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:55,320
Speaker 3: And then he's so calm.

1225
01:08:55,040 --> 01:09:00,920
Speaker 7: After Yeah, and you know, there's multiple there's about five

1226
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:05,200
Speaker 7: different types of dismemberment that people are profiled on. Most

1227
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:07,360
Speaker 7: people don't know this, and I can't name all five

1228
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:09,720
Speaker 7: of them off of the top of my head, but

1229
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:13,000
Speaker 7: one of them primarily is utility, and what you will

1230
01:09:13,040 --> 01:09:19,479
Speaker 7: get is a dissection of all of the limbs. Okay,

1231
01:09:19,560 --> 01:09:22,599
Speaker 7: so if we just think about taking the appendages off

1232
01:09:22,640 --> 01:09:25,439
Speaker 7: of the body, and that includes the head, both arms,

1233
01:09:25,439 --> 01:09:29,160
Speaker 7: and both legs, and they never touch the torso, and

1234
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:31,960
Speaker 7: that's that kind of has a utility to it because

1235
01:09:32,320 --> 01:09:35,800
Speaker 7: they're trying to compartmentalize a body in order for purposes

1236
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:39,040
Speaker 7: of disposal. Then you'll have people that just straight up

1237
01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:43,920
Speaker 7: desecrat or remain and there's a lot of psychopathology that

1238
01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:49,000
Speaker 7: goes into that. You know. You'll have people that's another

1239
01:09:49,040 --> 01:09:52,320
Speaker 7: group that are souvenir takers, you know, those sorts of things.

1240
01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:54,960
Speaker 7: And there's a whole litany of these things that people

1241
01:09:54,960 --> 01:09:59,800
Speaker 7: have studied over the years. So you know, you begin

1242
01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:03,960
Speaker 7: to think about this with him, it sounds it doesn't

1243
01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:06,759
Speaker 7: sound like something that was done by an irrational person,

1244
01:10:07,280 --> 01:10:10,320
Speaker 7: all right, because we have planning, you know that goes

1245
01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:12,760
Speaker 7: on with this, a lot of planning. You know, I

1246
01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:18,160
Speaker 7: don't know, listen, I've been in my share of topicsuits, y'all.

1247
01:10:18,160 --> 01:10:21,000
Speaker 7: I ain't got one around the house. One around the house.

1248
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:23,519
Speaker 7: All right. It's something you have to It's an active,

1249
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:25,920
Speaker 7: active event. You have to go track one down.

1250
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:29,479
Speaker 3: That's crazy one. You know.

1251
01:10:29,680 --> 01:10:33,280
Speaker 5: Let's all hope these painous thoughts don't aren't the first

1252
01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:34,200
Speaker 5: ones that dawn on us.

1253
01:10:34,240 --> 01:10:38,440
Speaker 3: As she points it out, Stephanie, in any situation. My goodness,

1254
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:39,280
Speaker 3: this is.

1255
01:10:39,160 --> 01:10:42,280
Speaker 5: True crime tonight, and we are so happy to be

1256
01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:46,240
Speaker 5: here with forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan and he's been

1257
01:10:46,280 --> 01:10:48,519
Speaker 5: breaking down all the cases of the week. We just

1258
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:52,839
Speaker 5: finished up with some information on accused wife killer Brian Walsh.

1259
01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:55,280
Speaker 5: We will stay with this case as it evolves in

1260
01:10:55,320 --> 01:10:58,439
Speaker 5: the coming weeks. But now I was thinking we turn

1261
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:03,080
Speaker 5: our attention to the David celestivs Hernandez case.

1262
01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:06,360
Speaker 3: If that works. Yeah, we have so many questions. Joseph.

1263
01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:07,760
Speaker 3: Of course, do you want to give us a little

1264
01:11:07,800 --> 01:11:11,720
Speaker 3: setup on that? Absolutely so.

1265
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:16,000
Speaker 5: Los Angeles County Criminal Grand Jury has heard evidence and

1266
01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:18,160
Speaker 5: this is in regard to the death of fourteen year

1267
01:11:18,200 --> 01:11:22,400
Speaker 5: old Celestrevus Hernandez. Her remains were found back in September

1268
01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:24,840
Speaker 5: eighth and it was in the front trunk of the

1269
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:29,080
Speaker 5: tesla that was registered to the pop Star David. While

1270
01:11:29,120 --> 01:11:33,719
Speaker 5: the District Attorney's office continues presenting evidence in what's being

1271
01:11:33,760 --> 01:11:37,960
Speaker 5: described in court filings as a quote investigation into murder.

1272
01:11:38,120 --> 01:11:42,160
Speaker 5: So they're not saying murder yet, but in investigation to murder.

1273
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:48,040
Speaker 5: The LAPD is now publicly correcting gruesome rumors about both

1274
01:11:48,040 --> 01:11:53,000
Speaker 5: the condition of celest Hernandez's body and stressing that key

1275
01:11:53,080 --> 01:11:58,240
Speaker 5: forensic tests that include toxicology as well as autopsy work

1276
01:11:59,000 --> 01:12:06,559
Speaker 5: are still pending. So, Joseph, what what do you make

1277
01:12:06,640 --> 01:12:11,320
Speaker 5: of all of this misinformation information? You know, it's been

1278
01:12:11,479 --> 01:12:14,920
Speaker 5: people have said that or police now are saying that

1279
01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:19,880
Speaker 5: seless remains were partially dismembered, that she was not decapitated,

1280
01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:23,960
Speaker 5: and that a lot of the online rumors simply aren't true.

1281
01:12:24,240 --> 01:12:29,120
Speaker 5: So do you learn anything from about intent or planning?

1282
01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:33,720
Speaker 7: Yeah? You can. I mean, there's still utility to this.

1283
01:12:34,439 --> 01:12:36,360
Speaker 7: You know. One of the biggest questions I've had with

1284
01:12:36,439 --> 01:12:40,120
Speaker 7: this case, love these many months now? Has it been months?

1285
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:47,920
Speaker 7: It has been months? Yeah? Lord, yeah, yeah. So one

1286
01:12:47,920 --> 01:12:54,599
Speaker 7: of my questions has been throughout this thing. First off,

1287
01:12:54,680 --> 01:12:58,080
Speaker 7: where would she if there is a dismemberment? All right,

1288
01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:00,320
Speaker 7: I don't know who to believe at this point, I

1289
01:13:00,439 --> 01:13:03,360
Speaker 7: really don't, you know. I mean, because we've heard so

1290
01:13:03,479 --> 01:13:06,519
Speaker 7: much and there have been quote unquote reliable sources all

1291
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:11,840
Speaker 7: over the place. And remember U said, quote unquote, but

1292
01:13:11,960 --> 01:13:15,040
Speaker 7: let's just run with this and say that she was dismembered.

1293
01:13:15,160 --> 01:13:19,719
Speaker 7: Where exactly did this dismemberment take place? I have thought

1294
01:13:20,400 --> 01:13:24,400
Speaker 7: for some time that, because you know, how I was

1295
01:13:24,439 --> 01:13:29,600
Speaker 7: talking about typologies with dismemberments, you do have these individuals

1296
01:13:29,640 --> 01:13:33,800
Speaker 7: that fall into a category of panic dismemberment, like, oh

1297
01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:37,479
Speaker 7: my lord, what do I do? And it's almost like

1298
01:13:37,520 --> 01:13:40,719
Speaker 7: a you know, in law, there's a term called in koheit,

1299
01:13:40,920 --> 01:13:43,479
Speaker 7: which means you intend to do something, but you don't

1300
01:13:43,479 --> 01:13:48,320
Speaker 7: complete the deed, and that can happen I think in

1301
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:53,000
Speaker 7: a case of kind of panicked dismemberment. But still we

1302
01:13:53,080 --> 01:13:56,320
Speaker 7: do have the word dismemberment floating around. Something has been

1303
01:13:56,960 --> 01:14:00,679
Speaker 7: separated from the remains. Okay, we don't know which appended.

1304
01:14:01,360 --> 01:14:03,960
Speaker 7: We don't know what degree. Was it a foot? Singly

1305
01:14:04,080 --> 01:14:07,080
Speaker 7: a foot singularly a foot? Was it an entire leg?

1306
01:14:07,160 --> 01:14:09,640
Speaker 7: Was it both legs? Was in an arm? They're saying she

1307
01:14:09,720 --> 01:14:14,880
Speaker 7: was not decapitated. I'm thinking, what she partially dismembered somewhere

1308
01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:20,200
Speaker 7: in a panic and they have her remains stowed somewhere

1309
01:14:20,280 --> 01:14:25,280
Speaker 7: else in the house. And she begins forgive me to

1310
01:14:25,320 --> 01:14:28,960
Speaker 7: become very foul and intolerable that smell. They don't know

1311
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:30,880
Speaker 7: what to do with her. So is it at that

1312
01:14:30,960 --> 01:14:34,519
Speaker 7: point in time that the remains are then kind of

1313
01:14:34,520 --> 01:14:40,080
Speaker 7: sequestered into the tesla all right and stowed there. Then

1314
01:14:40,120 --> 01:14:43,000
Speaker 7: the tesla's moved around, you know, because of the foul oor.

1315
01:14:43,040 --> 01:14:45,920
Speaker 7: No one trusts me. Once you've been around it, you

1316
01:14:45,920 --> 01:14:48,960
Speaker 7: don't want to be around it, particularly civilians. It's just

1317
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:53,800
Speaker 7: not something anyone ever gets used to. And I've had

1318
01:14:53,840 --> 01:14:58,240
Speaker 7: those thoughts. There would be with any dismember that there's

1319
01:14:58,320 --> 01:15:00,679
Speaker 7: generally a copious amount of Byloe evident.

1320
01:15:01,600 --> 01:15:03,960
Speaker 1: I have a question about just the idea for being

1321
01:15:04,080 --> 01:15:06,080
Speaker 1: frozen trigger alert, going to.

1322
01:15:06,160 --> 01:15:09,240
Speaker 3: Keep it very graphic less as clean as possible.

1323
01:15:09,280 --> 01:15:11,599
Speaker 1: But the there have been reports, or at least has

1324
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:15,639
Speaker 1: been written that David the Pop Star potentially traveled to uh.

1325
01:15:17,479 --> 01:15:20,360
Speaker 3: Uh senom so he traveled.

1326
01:15:20,200 --> 01:15:22,080
Speaker 1: You know, there have been reports that David the Pop

1327
01:15:22,080 --> 01:15:25,080
Speaker 1: Star traveled to Santa Barbara, either by himself or with

1328
01:15:25,200 --> 01:15:30,559
Speaker 1: one or two others undisclosed information there. The assertion is

1329
01:15:30,600 --> 01:15:33,880
Speaker 1: that perhaps she was dismembered there and in order to

1330
01:15:34,080 --> 01:15:39,400
Speaker 1: contain the odor that would be months after her you know,

1331
01:15:39,479 --> 01:15:42,400
Speaker 1: this would go so long beyond you know how that

1332
01:15:42,439 --> 01:15:46,080
Speaker 1: would be tolerable to quote you that maybe that's why

1333
01:15:46,320 --> 01:15:50,360
Speaker 1: she was frozen and frozen for as long as could be.

1334
01:15:50,800 --> 01:15:54,080
Speaker 1: And then once that seemed like not a good idea,

1335
01:15:54,120 --> 01:15:57,479
Speaker 1: they took her frozen remains and put that in the front,

1336
01:15:58,240 --> 01:16:01,519
Speaker 1: which would kind of check both that's happening between the

1337
01:16:01,560 --> 01:16:04,920
Speaker 1: medical examiner and the LAPD, which is maybe there were

1338
01:16:04,920 --> 01:16:08,280
Speaker 1: in fact some soaked fingerprints. Maybe that did really maybe

1339
01:16:08,280 --> 01:16:10,840
Speaker 1: that was the reason that her body didn't have the

1340
01:16:10,880 --> 01:16:14,880
Speaker 1: same odor that you're describing for as long as as

1341
01:16:14,920 --> 01:16:16,760
Speaker 1: long as she was allegedly in there. I know the

1342
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:20,400
Speaker 1: timeline is still a work in progress and evolving. Does

1343
01:16:20,400 --> 01:16:24,479
Speaker 1: that track would it freezing a human remain? Actually maybe

1344
01:16:24,520 --> 01:16:28,040
Speaker 1: we answer this right after the break, But with that, here's.

1345
01:16:27,800 --> 01:16:29,080
Speaker 3: What you got to think about, Joseph.

1346
01:16:29,360 --> 01:16:34,719
Speaker 1: The question is would freezing remains actually prevent the odor

1347
01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:38,839
Speaker 1: from being that noticeable? And does that match the potential

1348
01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:40,680
Speaker 1: timeline in celestory?

1349
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:43,160
Speaker 3: This her name iss case. And by the way, we're

1350
01:16:43,160 --> 01:16:49,280
Speaker 3: going to be right back True Crime tonight. Stay with us.

1351
01:16:56,560 --> 01:16:59,320
Speaker 1: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We've been

1352
01:16:59,320 --> 01:17:02,120
Speaker 1: talking true crime I'm all the time. I'm Stephanie here

1353
01:17:02,160 --> 01:17:05,040
Speaker 1: with Courtney. We have Taha in the control room and

1354
01:17:05,080 --> 01:17:08,599
Speaker 1: of course are joined by forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan,

1355
01:17:09,240 --> 01:17:13,120
Speaker 1: our very own and also he's the host of body Bags,

1356
01:17:13,120 --> 01:17:15,760
Speaker 1: the hit podcast. Please check it out. We are knee

1357
01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:18,800
Speaker 1: deep in all things David the pop star and the

1358
01:17:18,800 --> 01:17:23,320
Speaker 1: case of fourteen year old Celeste Revus Hernandez. The question

1359
01:17:23,400 --> 01:17:25,479
Speaker 1: being there's been a lot of back and forth in

1360
01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:30,360
Speaker 1: speculation that perhaps her body was frozen or water logged

1361
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:33,320
Speaker 1: upon being found. And is it possible that if your

1362
01:17:33,320 --> 01:17:39,160
Speaker 1: body is in fact frozen, that decomp would slow or

1363
01:17:39,280 --> 01:17:42,439
Speaker 1: the odor would slow, which would explain why she wasn't

1364
01:17:42,479 --> 01:17:43,880
Speaker 1: identified in the car sooner?

1365
01:17:44,840 --> 01:17:48,280
Speaker 7: Yes, yes, and yes. Okay, however, let's go to the

1366
01:17:48,320 --> 01:17:50,920
Speaker 7: water logging thing. I want to dispel this really quickly.

1367
01:17:51,560 --> 01:17:55,280
Speaker 7: There's something that happens. I think fingerprints came up at

1368
01:17:55,280 --> 01:17:59,080
Speaker 7: one point Tom about identification. There's a process that happens

1369
01:17:59,160 --> 01:18:02,920
Speaker 7: with decomposed and remains when we begin to think about fingers.

1370
01:18:03,000 --> 01:18:05,479
Speaker 7: If folks will just think about being in the pool.

1371
01:18:05,560 --> 01:18:07,599
Speaker 7: You remember Mama used to look at you. You'd say,

1372
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:09,800
Speaker 7: let me see your fingers, and back in the day,

1373
01:18:09,880 --> 01:18:12,120
Speaker 7: that was an indication you've been in the pool too long.

1374
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:16,400
Speaker 7: So your fingers get pruned up, right, Well, that happens

1375
01:18:16,439 --> 01:18:19,080
Speaker 7: with the decomposing debt. And one of the things that

1376
01:18:19,120 --> 01:18:21,519
Speaker 7: we do in order to lift a print is that

1377
01:18:21,600 --> 01:18:25,000
Speaker 7: we inject fingertips with what's called tissue builder, and it

1378
01:18:25,080 --> 01:18:29,439
Speaker 7: literally makes the fingertips swell. Okay, so we can roll

1379
01:18:29,479 --> 01:18:34,080
Speaker 7: a print that's not indicative of water logging. That's a

1380
01:18:34,200 --> 01:18:37,400
Speaker 7: natural process. So let's just get that off the table

1381
01:18:37,640 --> 01:18:40,519
Speaker 7: from jump Street. Now, if you want to talk about freezing,

1382
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:43,280
Speaker 7: here's something interesting that we've never talked about on True

1383
01:18:43,320 --> 01:18:47,000
Speaker 7: Crime tonight, and that is histology. And histology is the

1384
01:18:47,000 --> 01:18:52,200
Speaker 7: microscopic study of tissues. Now, let me ask you guys

1385
01:18:52,200 --> 01:18:56,640
Speaker 7: a little Quizlet here heat Heat makes things do what

1386
01:18:57,200 --> 01:19:02,360
Speaker 7: now span? Right? Hot air expands, you know those sort

1387
01:19:02,400 --> 01:19:05,360
Speaker 7: of things. Heat will cost pavement to crack all that.

1388
01:19:06,040 --> 01:19:09,559
Speaker 7: So if heat does that, what does coal do makes

1389
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:15,280
Speaker 7: it tracked? Right? So if when you look at the tissues,

1390
01:19:15,560 --> 01:19:18,240
Speaker 7: and I'm not going to go too deep into this,

1391
01:19:18,880 --> 01:19:22,000
Speaker 7: but when you look at the tissues microscopically, even the

1392
01:19:22,080 --> 01:19:26,280
Speaker 7: decomposing tissues in a body that has been frozen. You'll

1393
01:19:26,320 --> 01:19:30,520
Speaker 7: actually see these little spaces and gaps at a cellular

1394
01:19:30,640 --> 01:19:34,559
Speaker 7: level where the tissue has contracted down and it doesn't

1395
01:19:34,600 --> 01:19:37,679
Speaker 7: go back. There's no elasticity to make it pop back

1396
01:19:37,720 --> 01:19:42,519
Speaker 7: any longer. Isn't that kind of cool? So that's something

1397
01:19:42,560 --> 01:19:48,240
Speaker 7: that can be either debunked or verified microscopically. You know,

1398
01:19:48,520 --> 01:19:52,160
Speaker 7: with La County and if this is on the table,

1399
01:19:52,439 --> 01:19:55,000
Speaker 7: those people are pretty pretty dog on bright out there.

1400
01:19:55,560 --> 01:19:58,720
Speaker 7: I can imagine that the histo service there at La

1401
01:19:58,840 --> 01:20:03,320
Speaker 7: County corner would have done this. You take samples on

1402
01:20:03,479 --> 01:20:06,680
Speaker 7: every case, all right, but in this particular case they

1403
01:20:06,680 --> 01:20:09,280
Speaker 7: will take them, and that leads us into another area.

1404
01:20:09,320 --> 01:20:14,080
Speaker 7: Because everybody is right now and rightly so it is

1405
01:20:14,160 --> 01:20:19,400
Speaker 7: begging to find out about toxicology. Okay. So generally with

1406
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:23,360
Speaker 7: toxicology on a standard autopsy, what we lean on is

1407
01:20:23,520 --> 01:20:28,639
Speaker 7: what we call aortic blood. We go into the A order,

1408
01:20:28,680 --> 01:20:31,519
Speaker 7: which is the major vessel coming off the heart, and

1409
01:20:31,560 --> 01:20:35,920
Speaker 7: you draw the blood from there. Uh. We take victorous

1410
01:20:35,960 --> 01:20:39,720
Speaker 7: fluid from the eyes, we take urine uh, and we

1411
01:20:39,760 --> 01:20:43,519
Speaker 7: take bile. Okay, But in a case and what were

1412
01:20:43,560 --> 01:20:47,040
Speaker 7: the dates again that they've moved us dates further back

1413
01:20:47,040 --> 01:20:49,920
Speaker 7: in time? I think April or something like that. Bat

1414
01:20:49,960 --> 01:20:53,760
Speaker 7: in the spring, right, it's so convoluted, it's we know,

1415
01:20:53,840 --> 01:20:55,559
Speaker 7: it's a protracted period of time.

1416
01:20:57,560 --> 01:20:59,240
Speaker 8: I think her remains were found or I know her

1417
01:20:59,280 --> 01:21:01,559
Speaker 8: remains were found in September eighth. Is that what you're

1418
01:21:01,600 --> 01:21:02,080
Speaker 8: referring to.

1419
01:21:02,360 --> 01:21:06,439
Speaker 5: No, I think I think, Joseph, you're referring to should

1420
01:21:06,439 --> 01:21:09,000
Speaker 5: this trip to Santa Barbara, which has been spoken about

1421
01:21:09,080 --> 01:21:12,320
Speaker 5: quite a bit, that much has been made of it.

1422
01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:14,519
Speaker 5: We don't know exactly what, but that happened back in

1423
01:21:14,720 --> 01:21:19,360
Speaker 5: the spring. It didn't designate March April May. That backs

1424
01:21:19,360 --> 01:21:25,400
Speaker 5: it up. And then also according to the private investigator

1425
01:21:25,479 --> 01:21:29,479
Speaker 5: Steve Fisher, he helped on the timeline a little bit

1426
01:21:29,520 --> 01:21:32,559
Speaker 5: as well, and what he said was that the tesla

1427
01:21:32,680 --> 01:21:35,479
Speaker 5: sat in different spots around the Hollywood of Hills before

1428
01:21:35,560 --> 01:21:41,040
Speaker 5: being left on Bluebird Bluebird Avenue on July twenty ninth.

1429
01:21:41,520 --> 01:21:44,240
Speaker 5: So that, of course is already July twenty ninth to

1430
01:21:44,400 --> 01:21:47,920
Speaker 5: September eighth. That's a long time, and it is.

1431
01:21:47,880 --> 01:21:52,800
Speaker 7: A very long time, particularly in that sweltering Los Angeles heat, right,

1432
01:21:52,920 --> 01:21:55,840
Speaker 7: it was particularly hot. I know I'm preaching the choir, guys,

1433
01:21:56,120 --> 01:21:58,640
Speaker 7: it's particularly hot summer for you guys.

1434
01:21:58,320 --> 01:22:00,439
Speaker 1: And I just think it's impossible that that would have

1435
01:22:00,479 --> 01:22:02,280
Speaker 1: gone so long. Just having worked with you for as

1436
01:22:02,320 --> 01:22:04,599
Speaker 1: long as I have, Joseph, it just seems like that

1437
01:22:04,680 --> 01:22:10,000
Speaker 1: wouldn't fly unless there was another exacerbating condition, maybe like

1438
01:22:10,040 --> 01:22:11,280
Speaker 1: freezing or something.

1439
01:22:12,720 --> 01:22:17,120
Speaker 7: Well, that kind of leads me to this idea of

1440
01:22:17,160 --> 01:22:21,599
Speaker 7: how are we going to get talks? Okay, now, okay,

1441
01:22:22,479 --> 01:22:25,400
Speaker 7: let's just give me a little rope here, all right.

1442
01:22:25,479 --> 01:22:28,800
Speaker 7: So there are certain areas with decomposing remains that we

1443
01:22:28,920 --> 01:22:33,799
Speaker 7: go to to try to at least get a quantitative amount,

1444
01:22:33,840 --> 01:22:36,439
Speaker 7: because you can't do it, y'all. You can't apply a

1445
01:22:36,560 --> 01:22:40,000
Speaker 7: number to it, because in our world we work on

1446
01:22:40,120 --> 01:22:43,200
Speaker 7: things that are called therapeutic levels. Even heroin has got

1447
01:22:43,200 --> 01:22:45,839
Speaker 7: a therapeutic level if you look in the text. Okay,

1448
01:22:46,080 --> 01:22:48,519
Speaker 7: that means it's still compatible with life. If you've got

1449
01:22:48,520 --> 01:22:51,360
Speaker 7: this on board, and drugs have half lives and all

1450
01:22:51,400 --> 01:22:53,439
Speaker 7: that stuff. We can get into that another day. If

1451
01:22:53,479 --> 01:22:57,479
Speaker 7: we do a thing on toxicology, however, yeah, we should

1452
01:22:58,360 --> 01:23:02,599
Speaker 7: with this case. If her remains are as compromised as

1453
01:23:02,640 --> 01:23:05,519
Speaker 7: they are saying they are. Here's the regions we're going

1454
01:23:05,600 --> 01:23:08,280
Speaker 7: to go to at the Morgue we're going to go

1455
01:23:08,320 --> 01:23:13,160
Speaker 7: to major muscle groups. Okay, so think by all right,

1456
01:23:13,439 --> 01:23:16,920
Speaker 7: like the quads, you go deep into the quads, you

1457
01:23:17,000 --> 01:23:20,760
Speaker 7: try to retrieve a sample of muscle tissue. From there,

1458
01:23:21,280 --> 01:23:25,320
Speaker 7: you go to the brain. Okay again, forgive me what's

1459
01:23:25,439 --> 01:23:28,760
Speaker 7: left of the brain. Now, surprisingly one of the most

1460
01:23:28,800 --> 01:23:31,880
Speaker 7: resilient organs and by the way, the filthiest organ in

1461
01:23:31,920 --> 01:23:35,360
Speaker 7: the human body, the liver. You go to the liver,

1462
01:23:35,560 --> 01:23:40,040
Speaker 7: liver holes on the toxins. Okay, we go there, and

1463
01:23:40,280 --> 01:23:42,360
Speaker 7: there are a couple of other areas, but those are

1464
01:23:42,360 --> 01:23:44,400
Speaker 7: going to be the primary regions. What do we do

1465
01:23:44,439 --> 01:23:48,639
Speaker 7: with it, Well, we take those samples and we put

1466
01:23:48,640 --> 01:23:51,640
Speaker 7: them in a centrifuge. Everybody knows what a centerge is.

1467
01:23:51,840 --> 01:23:54,280
Speaker 7: You've ever been to a fair and you've been in

1468
01:23:54,320 --> 01:23:56,720
Speaker 7: the thing that goes around around the floor falls out.

1469
01:23:56,760 --> 01:23:59,040
Speaker 7: That's a centrifuge, all right. So we put these samples

1470
01:23:59,080 --> 01:24:03,600
Speaker 7: in a centrifuge and literally spin them down until they're liquefied.

1471
01:24:04,280 --> 01:24:08,280
Speaker 7: Then we draw them up and we submit it for toxicology. Now,

1472
01:24:08,400 --> 01:24:10,640
Speaker 7: you can find major drug groups in there. You can

1473
01:24:10,640 --> 01:24:14,880
Speaker 7: find opiates, you can find benzos, you can find cocaine, metabolite,

1474
01:24:15,240 --> 01:24:17,360
Speaker 7: I don't know if you can find THHC. But you

1475
01:24:17,400 --> 01:24:20,240
Speaker 7: can find all of these elements. But still one of

1476
01:24:20,240 --> 01:24:24,720
Speaker 7: the big nagging questions with the shung woman's death. Let

1477
01:24:24,760 --> 01:24:27,519
Speaker 7: me rephrase that and say, girl, is was this a

1478
01:24:27,600 --> 01:24:31,080
Speaker 7: drug related thing? Well, y'all, I gotta tell you you'll

1479
01:24:31,080 --> 01:24:33,519
Speaker 7: never have that answer. You're not going to be and

1480
01:24:33,760 --> 01:24:36,360
Speaker 7: I hope I'm wrong. I truly hope I'm proven wrong.

1481
01:24:37,160 --> 01:24:41,080
Speaker 7: I can't imagine you would have a quantitative amount because

1482
01:24:41,080 --> 01:24:44,040
Speaker 7: if we have blood, urine, vitreous, bile, all those things

1483
01:24:44,040 --> 01:24:47,439
Speaker 7: that we do on a regular freshly passed away person,

1484
01:24:47,880 --> 01:24:49,960
Speaker 7: we can get those levels. We can nail it, man.

1485
01:24:50,360 --> 01:24:52,960
Speaker 7: But you're talking about y'all. Y'all have talked about months, man,

1486
01:24:54,080 --> 01:24:56,720
Speaker 7: and if it was a poisoning, there's certain things we

1487
01:24:56,760 --> 01:24:58,719
Speaker 7: can look for in the hair. But you know, we're

1488
01:24:58,760 --> 01:25:00,599
Speaker 7: really kind of out on a limb because you're talking

1489
01:25:00,640 --> 01:25:03,120
Speaker 7: about things like heavy metals and all those sorts of things.

1490
01:25:04,040 --> 01:25:08,280
Speaker 7: So I don't have a lot of hope for talks here.

1491
01:25:10,120 --> 01:25:11,840
Speaker 1: I was going to say that was my big question.

1492
01:25:11,920 --> 01:25:14,800
Speaker 1: It was in terms of the timeline. Even with our

1493
01:25:14,840 --> 01:25:17,680
Speaker 1: hair follicles. I know we've done many cases together where

1494
01:25:17,720 --> 01:25:19,519
Speaker 1: it's very simple to be able to find a full

1495
01:25:19,560 --> 01:25:23,559
Speaker 1: toxicology very clearly, regardless of time. In this case, it

1496
01:25:23,640 --> 01:25:26,920
Speaker 1: seems like it's gone well beyond the scope or timeline

1497
01:25:26,920 --> 01:25:30,280
Speaker 1: that it typically would to get a toxicology back. I

1498
01:25:30,280 --> 01:25:33,160
Speaker 1: think we've theorized theorized by the way, this is a

1499
01:25:33,240 --> 01:25:37,439
Speaker 1: theory theory, theory, not so allegedly. Maybe there was an

1500
01:25:37,479 --> 01:25:40,799
Speaker 1: incident where Celeste odeed in some way or was slipped

1501
01:25:40,840 --> 01:25:43,920
Speaker 1: a drug and odeed from that, and then everybody in

1502
01:25:43,960 --> 01:25:46,920
Speaker 1: the house panicked, not so similarly to the last case

1503
01:25:46,920 --> 01:25:49,920
Speaker 1: we covered, and in that moment of panic, this is

1504
01:25:49,960 --> 01:25:54,120
Speaker 1: what the next solution becomes to prevent the music tour

1505
01:25:54,240 --> 01:25:58,719
Speaker 1: from being interrupted or for preventing you know, my buddy

1506
01:25:58,840 --> 01:26:01,600
Speaker 1: David to come down in flames. Maybe had nothing to

1507
01:26:01,640 --> 01:26:05,320
Speaker 1: do with it, but it's is it true that at

1508
01:26:05,320 --> 01:26:07,840
Speaker 1: this point, based on sort of what little we know

1509
01:26:07,960 --> 01:26:11,439
Speaker 1: about Celeste's body, that we might actually never know the

1510
01:26:11,479 --> 01:26:13,920
Speaker 1: answer to that? And is that why there may be

1511
01:26:14,080 --> 01:26:15,360
Speaker 1: hasn't been in arrest made.

1512
01:26:15,680 --> 01:26:18,160
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think that that could be be part of

1513
01:26:18,160 --> 01:26:22,160
Speaker 7: the hold up. It's always it almost feels like in

1514
01:26:22,200 --> 01:26:24,960
Speaker 7: my experience, and I'm just talking about my little selicupple, y'all,

1515
01:26:25,000 --> 01:26:27,960
Speaker 7: I don't encompass the entire world. Everybody has different experiences.

1516
01:26:28,000 --> 01:26:30,800
Speaker 7: In the medical legal world. It always kind of felt

1517
01:26:30,840 --> 01:26:33,800
Speaker 7: like fools there. And when I'd get these bodies that

1518
01:26:33,840 --> 01:26:38,280
Speaker 7: are so in an advanced state of decomposition, You're holding

1519
01:26:38,280 --> 01:26:40,760
Speaker 7: your breath, You're hoping you're going to get it, and

1520
01:26:40,800 --> 01:26:44,559
Speaker 7: stuff never comes back in a timely fashion. Stuff rarely

1521
01:26:44,600 --> 01:26:47,080
Speaker 7: comes back. And what we think a timely fashion in

1522
01:26:47,120 --> 01:26:50,439
Speaker 7: the fresh did how much more so when you've got

1523
01:26:50,439 --> 01:26:52,840
Speaker 7: somebody that's been down for a protracted period of time.

1524
01:26:52,960 --> 01:26:55,519
Speaker 7: I think I would be very curious if the authorities

1525
01:26:55,560 --> 01:26:58,840
Speaker 7: in LA have not asked Quantico to get involved in

1526
01:26:58,880 --> 01:27:02,559
Speaker 7: this and take advantage of their skill set that they

1527
01:27:02,600 --> 01:27:06,679
Speaker 7: have because they deal with cases from all over the USA,

1528
01:27:06,960 --> 01:27:08,280
Speaker 7: they deal with cases.

1529
01:27:07,920 --> 01:27:08,920
Speaker 3: From all over the world.

1530
01:27:09,000 --> 01:27:13,320
Speaker 7: If the FBI is involved in it, and look the California,

1531
01:27:13,439 --> 01:27:17,640
Speaker 7: California has quite the resources out there, I just I

1532
01:27:17,920 --> 01:27:21,439
Speaker 7: just don't know, because first off, we heard peep out

1533
01:27:21,439 --> 01:27:24,880
Speaker 7: of them. I don't anticipate here anything out of them,

1534
01:27:25,160 --> 01:27:29,360
Speaker 7: really anything of substance. You know what I'm saying, This.

1535
01:27:29,400 --> 01:27:30,360
Speaker 3: Is true crime. Today.

1536
01:27:30,439 --> 01:27:34,480
Speaker 5: We are here with Joseph Scott Morgan, forensic expert extraordinaire,

1537
01:27:34,600 --> 01:27:38,559
Speaker 5: and we are discussing the case involving the pop star

1538
01:27:38,720 --> 01:27:43,760
Speaker 5: David and the fourteen year old remains of selest Revas Hernandez. So,

1539
01:27:43,920 --> 01:27:49,559
Speaker 5: speaking back on the Medical Examiner's office, Joseph, there's been

1540
01:27:49,560 --> 01:27:55,200
Speaker 5: this kind of interesting and public back and forth between

1541
01:27:56,000 --> 01:28:01,040
Speaker 5: the police and the Medical Examiner's office. So, speaking to

1542
01:28:01,120 --> 01:28:04,920
Speaker 5: a legal expert earlier this week, his take was, we said,

1543
01:28:05,000 --> 01:28:08,200
Speaker 5: is this unusual? He said yes, especially to publicly air

1544
01:28:08,280 --> 01:28:11,320
Speaker 5: this dirty laundry lack of a better word, and he said,

1545
01:28:11,360 --> 01:28:15,960
Speaker 5: kind of the prosecution to stick together. But in your experience,

1546
01:28:16,200 --> 01:28:21,160
Speaker 5: what would make the Medical Examiner's Office appear to want

1547
01:28:21,240 --> 01:28:30,640
Speaker 5: to provide information and officers want it not to be released.

1548
01:28:28,920 --> 01:28:33,439
Speaker 7: Because they're scientists? I think is one of the elements

1549
01:28:33,479 --> 01:28:38,080
Speaker 7: to this. They you know, we in science, we have

1550
01:28:38,240 --> 01:28:41,519
Speaker 7: this this need to release information and you know, full

1551
01:28:41,880 --> 01:28:45,920
Speaker 7: full kind of things. Let's keep in mind, y'all, maybe

1552
01:28:45,920 --> 01:28:48,679
Speaker 7: they're working this like a homicide. Has anybody been charged

1553
01:28:48,720 --> 01:28:51,400
Speaker 7: with homicide here? No, they still have yet to clear

1554
01:28:51,439 --> 01:28:56,240
Speaker 7: this a homicide. Correct, So the font from which all

1555
01:28:56,280 --> 01:29:00,680
Speaker 7: of the data should spring is actually the corner. You

1556
01:29:00,680 --> 01:29:04,960
Speaker 7: see what I'm saying, because you know it if you

1557
01:29:04,960 --> 01:29:08,439
Speaker 7: don't have enough information to call this a homicide, and

1558
01:29:08,479 --> 01:29:10,760
Speaker 7: I know I'll get pushedback on this, but you just

1559
01:29:10,760 --> 01:29:14,040
Speaker 7: look at it from a reality standpoint. Are the police

1560
01:29:14,080 --> 01:29:16,840
Speaker 7: involved in this? Then just think about it, because the

1561
01:29:16,840 --> 01:29:20,479
Speaker 7: police do not make a ruling of a manner of

1562
01:29:20,520 --> 01:29:23,519
Speaker 7: death or a manner, you know, one of the five manners.

1563
01:29:23,520 --> 01:29:26,880
Speaker 7: They're the ones that and many times the medical legal

1564
01:29:26,880 --> 01:29:29,960
Speaker 7: world will run contrary to what the police do. You know,

1565
01:29:30,000 --> 01:29:32,800
Speaker 7: this happens a lot. I've been in not fights, but

1566
01:29:32,880 --> 01:29:36,120
Speaker 7: you know what I'm saying, you go, it's a conflict model,

1567
01:29:36,680 --> 01:29:39,200
Speaker 7: you know, kind of like court. We have our interests

1568
01:29:39,200 --> 01:29:43,160
Speaker 7: are completely different than those of the cops. You know,

1569
01:29:43,280 --> 01:29:46,240
Speaker 7: the cops have not moved forward with this as a

1570
01:29:46,320 --> 01:29:50,000
Speaker 7: standard homicide investigation. They have to have something to hang

1571
01:29:50,080 --> 01:29:54,160
Speaker 7: their proverbial hats on here and to this point, apparently

1572
01:29:54,200 --> 01:29:59,679
Speaker 7: the slash corner has not provided that. So right now

1573
01:30:00,080 --> 01:30:05,240
Speaker 7: all is literally in the court of the corner's office.

1574
01:30:05,360 --> 01:30:10,960
Speaker 7: Unless somebody associated with this young man rolls over and

1575
01:30:11,080 --> 01:30:13,560
Speaker 7: has an epistotal moment, as we say down here in

1576
01:30:13,600 --> 01:30:16,839
Speaker 7: the South, come to Jesus moment and wants to say

1577
01:30:16,880 --> 01:30:20,760
Speaker 7: you know this is what happened that ain't happening to

1578
01:30:20,800 --> 01:30:23,599
Speaker 7: this point, I haven't seen it. I mean, maybe it'll happen.

1579
01:30:23,600 --> 01:30:25,680
Speaker 3: It's just shocking. It's shocking.

1580
01:30:25,800 --> 01:30:28,920
Speaker 1: It's shocking that either nobody is screaming from the roofstops.

1581
01:30:29,120 --> 01:30:32,600
Speaker 1: Help there's an active killer out there who took my

1582
01:30:33,040 --> 01:30:37,320
Speaker 1: you know, fan or friend Celeste, you know, Revis Fernandez's life.

1583
01:30:37,720 --> 01:30:40,439
Speaker 1: If I'm David the pop star, help help help find

1584
01:30:40,520 --> 01:30:43,760
Speaker 1: the person who did this. Nor has anybody turned on

1585
01:30:43,800 --> 01:30:46,559
Speaker 1: each other. And we've all been in this for way

1586
01:30:46,600 --> 01:30:47,000
Speaker 1: too long.

1587
01:30:47,080 --> 01:30:47,679
Speaker 3: That's rare.

1588
01:30:48,560 --> 01:30:51,160
Speaker 1: Usually a couple of months in somebody's looking at a

1589
01:30:51,240 --> 01:30:52,080
Speaker 1: lot of jail time.

1590
01:30:52,280 --> 01:30:55,840
Speaker 3: They're feeling a little less posey about.

1591
01:30:55,560 --> 01:30:59,200
Speaker 1: Who they're, you know, taking a hit for dare I say,

1592
01:30:59,640 --> 01:31:02,040
Speaker 1: and you haven't seen that yet. So this becomes one

1593
01:31:02,040 --> 01:31:04,080
Speaker 1: of those cases that is so incredibly confusing.

1594
01:31:05,240 --> 01:31:08,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, there's no substance point of leverage here. And may

1595
01:31:08,680 --> 01:31:12,400
Speaker 7: I hearken back to the Pikedon massacre. Yes, we think

1596
01:31:12,400 --> 01:31:12,800
Speaker 7: about that.

1597
01:31:13,400 --> 01:31:17,400
Speaker 3: They were at least related. They were related, which will be.

1598
01:31:17,200 --> 01:31:20,439
Speaker 1: Different than your friends that are you know, your hanger

1599
01:31:20,520 --> 01:31:24,960
Speaker 1: on her crew that are partying at your Hollywood Hills house.

1600
01:31:25,040 --> 01:31:28,280
Speaker 1: For twenty thousand dollars a month. You would think maybe

1601
01:31:28,280 --> 01:31:29,960
Speaker 1: one of them would turn coat.

1602
01:31:30,360 --> 01:31:32,759
Speaker 7: Yeah, but in Pikedin you had a point of pressure

1603
01:31:32,800 --> 01:31:35,800
Speaker 7: there and apparently that doesn't exist at this point. At

1604
01:31:35,880 --> 01:31:38,960
Speaker 7: least they're not showing their cards. I got to tell you, y'all,

1605
01:31:39,040 --> 01:31:42,880
Speaker 7: I have yet cover case like this where there has

1606
01:31:42,920 --> 01:31:47,280
Speaker 7: been like a total shutdown of data that's been released.

1607
01:31:48,760 --> 01:31:50,960
Speaker 3: And listen, we have loved having you.

1608
01:31:51,040 --> 01:31:53,519
Speaker 1: I hate to do the fastest wrap up ever, Joseph,

1609
01:31:53,640 --> 01:31:56,839
Speaker 1: but Body for sure wants to talk about the Luigi

1610
01:31:56,880 --> 01:32:00,000
Speaker 1: mangi Oon ghost gun. So in the coming days where

1611
01:32:00,120 --> 01:32:03,280
Speaker 1: unpack that as well and listen to anyone listening. We

1612
01:32:03,320 --> 01:32:05,240
Speaker 1: hope you have a beautiful start to the week. Here's

1613
01:32:05,280 --> 01:32:08,120
Speaker 1: to Monday, let's do it. Thank you for listening. We

1614
01:32:08,240 --> 01:32:11,760
Speaker 1: will be back with breaking news tomorrow as well. So

1615
01:32:11,760 --> 01:32:15,440
Speaker 1: so much more of this to come, Joseph, Scott Morgan, body.

1616
01:32:15,240 --> 01:32:16,840
Speaker 3: Bags, make sure you check it out.

1617
01:32:17,080 --> 01:32:20,280
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to True Crime tonight. Coritney, Taha

1618
01:32:20,320 --> 01:32:23,200
Speaker 1: and I and Joseph, we love you and we've loved

1619
01:32:23,240 --> 01:32:24,400
Speaker 1: spending the evening with you.

1620
01:32:24,479 --> 01:32:25,400
Speaker 3: We'll catch you tomorrow.