1
00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:32,916
Speaker 1: Pushkin. I felt like I was doing pretty much everything

2
00:00:32,916 --> 00:00:39,036
Speaker 1: in my power to not get cancer, and yet here

3
00:00:39,076 --> 00:00:43,396
Speaker 1: I am. That's Scott. He's a software engineer, and he

4
00:00:43,436 --> 00:00:46,636
Speaker 1: builds computer programs that help doctors detect breast cancer and

5
00:00:46,716 --> 00:00:50,556
Speaker 1: medical scans. He's also spent pretty much his entire adult

6
00:00:50,596 --> 00:00:54,316
Speaker 1: life maximizing his physical health. Last year, at the age

7
00:00:54,316 --> 00:00:58,076
Speaker 1: of thirty two, Scott was diagnosed with stage four bone cancer.

8
00:00:58,756 --> 00:01:01,116
Speaker 1: He's had to pack up his life in California and

9
00:01:01,236 --> 00:01:04,596
Speaker 1: moved to Texas for treatment at MD Anderson Medical Center.

10
00:01:05,316 --> 00:01:09,556
Speaker 1: He's undergone multiple rounds of impatient chemotherapy, and doctors have

11
00:01:09,636 --> 00:01:12,356
Speaker 1: had to amputate his right leg and remove a vertebra

12
00:01:12,516 --> 00:01:15,796
Speaker 1: from his spine. I think there are a lot of

13
00:01:15,796 --> 00:01:22,556
Speaker 1: ways in which I think I've matured and softened already

14
00:01:22,596 --> 00:01:27,036
Speaker 1: through this experience. And I think maybe that's just our

15
00:01:28,196 --> 00:01:36,196
Speaker 1: instinct to try to find meaning in whatever tragedy or

16
00:01:36,556 --> 00:01:41,516
Speaker 1: adversity we experience. But I do think there's been a

17
00:01:41,556 --> 00:01:45,556
Speaker 1: lot of change, hopefully for the better. I mean, it

18
00:01:45,596 --> 00:01:49,276
Speaker 1: would be a shame if not only where my body compromised,

19
00:01:49,276 --> 00:01:54,036
Speaker 1: but my personality also got worse. Most of the conversations

20
00:01:54,076 --> 00:01:56,196
Speaker 1: we've heard on a slight change. Of plans so far

21
00:01:56,436 --> 00:01:58,676
Speaker 1: are from folks who've gone through a big change and

22
00:01:58,716 --> 00:02:02,356
Speaker 1: are out the other side now reflecting back. But Scott

23
00:02:02,396 --> 00:02:05,996
Speaker 1: is still undergoing treatment, and in our conversation he's processing

24
00:02:06,036 --> 00:02:08,876
Speaker 1: this big change in real time. I'm sure of how

25
00:02:09,236 --> 00:02:13,276
Speaker 1: stories going to unfold, but so far, one thing's surprised Scott.

26
00:02:13,876 --> 00:02:16,876
Speaker 1: He's handling this change far differently than he thought he would.

27
00:02:17,636 --> 00:02:20,356
Speaker 1: I'm maya Shunker, and this is a slight change of plants,

28
00:02:20,756 --> 00:02:23,076
Speaker 1: a show that died deep into the world of change

29
00:02:23,156 --> 00:02:25,836
Speaker 1: and hopefully gets us to think differently at that change

30
00:02:25,916 --> 00:02:51,196
Speaker 1: in our own lives. I've known Scott for about two

31
00:02:51,276 --> 00:02:53,836
Speaker 1: years now. We don't know each other super well. He's

32
00:02:53,836 --> 00:02:56,436
Speaker 1: a friend of my husband's, but he shared pretty early

33
00:02:56,516 --> 00:02:59,276
Speaker 1: on that he is a total health nut. I remember

34
00:02:59,316 --> 00:03:01,916
Speaker 1: the first time I had dinner with Scott. Not only

35
00:03:01,956 --> 00:03:04,916
Speaker 1: did he pick out the healthiest restaurant in town, farmed

36
00:03:04,956 --> 00:03:08,836
Speaker 1: a table, organic and vegan, he also chose the healthiest

37
00:03:08,836 --> 00:03:11,876
Speaker 1: item on the menu. I'll put it this way. If

38
00:03:11,876 --> 00:03:14,836
Speaker 1: there's rigors evidence out there that some health behavior works,

39
00:03:15,156 --> 00:03:18,236
Speaker 1: I promise you Scott's done it. He's a vegan. He

40
00:03:18,316 --> 00:03:21,756
Speaker 1: does intermittent fasting and high intensity interval training, and he

41
00:03:21,756 --> 00:03:25,836
Speaker 1: adds turmeric and chiass to his food whenever possible. I

42
00:03:25,956 --> 00:03:31,636
Speaker 1: definitely had a certain amount of rigidity surrounding health. I

43
00:03:32,836 --> 00:03:35,876
Speaker 1: was adamant about getting a certain amount of sleep, adamant

44
00:03:35,876 --> 00:03:40,876
Speaker 1: about eating the certain correct types and quantity of foods.

45
00:03:41,076 --> 00:03:46,596
Speaker 1: It seemed like an outlet for my control freakishness. So

46
00:03:46,636 --> 00:03:50,876
Speaker 1: I had read the nutrition book How Not to Die,

47
00:03:51,636 --> 00:03:56,076
Speaker 1: and I was pursuing a lot of those principles pretty faithfully.

48
00:03:56,676 --> 00:04:02,076
Speaker 1: The goal was to be fit and to look fit

49
00:04:02,316 --> 00:04:06,156
Speaker 1: and to perform my best. The goal was certainly not

50
00:04:06,196 --> 00:04:12,396
Speaker 1: to avoid death. It was more a fear of diminishment.

51
00:04:13,716 --> 00:04:16,116
Speaker 1: One of the ways Scott tried to stave off diminishment

52
00:04:16,316 --> 00:04:19,236
Speaker 1: was to play sports. While in grad school years ago,

53
00:04:19,356 --> 00:04:22,836
Speaker 1: Scott was playing soccer and sprained his right ankle. Years later,

54
00:04:22,876 --> 00:04:25,276
Speaker 1: in the fall of twenty nineteen, he was out jogging,

55
00:04:25,516 --> 00:04:28,996
Speaker 1: something he did fairly regularly, when again he experienced pain

56
00:04:29,076 --> 00:04:33,196
Speaker 1: in his ankle, and I sort of attributed it to

57
00:04:33,516 --> 00:04:37,116
Speaker 1: that earlier injury. I think it was the end of

58
00:04:37,116 --> 00:04:42,076
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen where I thought, I think physical therapy would help,

59
00:04:42,076 --> 00:04:45,196
Speaker 1: and so I worked through the PT and it just

60
00:04:45,196 --> 00:04:48,036
Speaker 1: didn't get better. And I'm really diligent about these sorts

61
00:04:48,036 --> 00:04:50,236
Speaker 1: of things. I'm like the only person who ever does

62
00:04:50,276 --> 00:04:54,476
Speaker 1: their PT exercises, all of them every time. I remember

63
00:04:54,596 --> 00:04:55,956
Speaker 1: sort of getting out of bed in the middle of

64
00:04:55,956 --> 00:04:59,436
Speaker 1: the night to go to the bathroom, and I would

65
00:04:59,436 --> 00:05:01,516
Speaker 1: sort of be limping and hobbling, and it just kept

66
00:05:01,556 --> 00:05:04,956
Speaker 1: getting worse. And at a certain point, I said, I

67
00:05:05,076 --> 00:05:08,396
Speaker 1: need to see somebody about this. I had it some

68
00:05:08,476 --> 00:05:11,636
Speaker 1: suspicion in the back my mind that it was something

69
00:05:11,756 --> 00:05:16,836
Speaker 1: nastier than a strict sports medicine issue, like it could

70
00:05:16,836 --> 00:05:19,556
Speaker 1: have been an infection or some fracture that wasn't healing.

71
00:05:20,276 --> 00:05:24,236
Speaker 1: I went to go see somebody who ordered x rays,

72
00:05:25,516 --> 00:05:29,676
Speaker 1: and the x rays were a little ambiguous or concerning,

73
00:05:30,356 --> 00:05:33,476
Speaker 1: so they sent me for an MRI. I got an

74
00:05:33,596 --> 00:05:39,316
Speaker 1: MRI and they said, okay, well you have some tendinosis,

75
00:05:40,436 --> 00:05:45,556
Speaker 1: but there's also something going on with your bone. Did

76
00:05:45,556 --> 00:05:48,316
Speaker 1: you ever think at any point that it might be cancer.

77
00:05:48,396 --> 00:05:50,036
Speaker 1: I mean, I know you said you thought it could

78
00:05:50,076 --> 00:05:54,436
Speaker 1: be nastier than a simple orthopedic injury. That did cancer

79
00:05:54,516 --> 00:06:01,916
Speaker 1: ever cross your mind? No, it didn't. It was listed

80
00:06:01,956 --> 00:06:06,116
Speaker 1: among those things, but it just felt too remote to believe.

81
00:06:06,356 --> 00:06:11,076
Speaker 1: I also felt like I was doing just about everything

82
00:06:11,116 --> 00:06:15,756
Speaker 1: in my power to avoid getting things like cancer. You know,

83
00:06:15,836 --> 00:06:17,756
Speaker 1: I thought it was maybe an inevitability that I would

84
00:06:17,796 --> 00:06:21,916
Speaker 1: get something like prostate cancer, which is sort of rampant

85
00:06:21,716 --> 00:06:25,236
Speaker 1: in both branches of my family. But that was something

86
00:06:25,316 --> 00:06:30,116
Speaker 1: for sixty year old me, not thirty something exactly. Can

87
00:06:30,156 --> 00:06:32,116
Speaker 1: you bring you back to the moment where you ended

88
00:06:32,156 --> 00:06:37,956
Speaker 1: up getting the definitive call from your doctor. Yeah. We

89
00:06:37,956 --> 00:06:45,316
Speaker 1: were in a car driving towards Santa Cruz and we

90
00:06:46,836 --> 00:06:54,116
Speaker 1: got connected with my orthopedic surgeon, and they explained that

91
00:06:54,676 --> 00:06:56,916
Speaker 1: they thought it was cancer and that it should be

92
00:06:57,236 --> 00:07:02,716
Speaker 1: removed surgically, and that the nature of the cancer probably

93
00:07:02,756 --> 00:07:09,756
Speaker 1: warranted a very intense regiment of chemotherapy, and that the

94
00:07:09,796 --> 00:07:16,316
Speaker 1: presence of these other spots in my skeleton suggested that

95
00:07:16,356 --> 00:07:21,676
Speaker 1: it was a fairly aggressive disease. It would not be

96
00:07:21,836 --> 00:07:27,476
Speaker 1: unreasonable to describe my condition as multifocal osteo sarcoma. And

97
00:07:27,596 --> 00:07:30,796
Speaker 1: the five year survival rate for patients with this diagnosis

98
00:07:30,916 --> 00:07:34,236
Speaker 1: is about thirty percent. So I think that is the

99
00:07:34,276 --> 00:07:39,596
Speaker 1: first time that all of that that terminology and those

100
00:07:39,796 --> 00:07:45,316
Speaker 1: numbers kind of aligned and we were faced with the

101
00:07:45,356 --> 00:07:49,956
Speaker 1: magnitude of the situation. Do you remember what your first

102
00:07:49,956 --> 00:07:53,516
Speaker 1: reaction was, what you thought. Well, I was with Logan

103
00:07:53,556 --> 00:07:57,876
Speaker 1: at the time, who is now my wife, and I

104
00:07:57,916 --> 00:08:05,276
Speaker 1: think there was a sense of responsibility. I mean, we

105
00:08:05,356 --> 00:08:08,796
Speaker 1: had been we were not yet married, we were engaged.

106
00:08:09,676 --> 00:08:13,156
Speaker 1: I think my mortality came into relief in a way,

107
00:08:13,236 --> 00:08:17,916
Speaker 1: and I wanted to solidify our bond both between us

108
00:08:17,956 --> 00:08:21,876
Speaker 1: and also in the eyes of the law as it

109
00:08:21,916 --> 00:08:27,756
Speaker 1: pertains to power of attorney and inheritance and all that stuff.

110
00:08:27,876 --> 00:08:31,836
Speaker 1: So I think some of those logistics rushed forward and

111
00:08:32,276 --> 00:08:36,076
Speaker 1: thought about tying the knot. Scott had to make some

112
00:08:36,156 --> 00:08:38,836
Speaker 1: fast decisions after he got that call from his doctor.

113
00:08:39,356 --> 00:08:41,436
Speaker 1: In the span of two weeks, he and Logan got

114
00:08:41,436 --> 00:08:44,436
Speaker 1: married in Golden Gate Park, and Scott decided he was

115
00:08:44,436 --> 00:08:47,436
Speaker 1: going to seek the most aggressive treatment possible, which meant

116
00:08:47,476 --> 00:08:50,476
Speaker 1: amputating his right leg below the knee. The day before

117
00:08:50,516 --> 00:08:53,516
Speaker 1: their weddings, Scott and Logan threw an unusual kind of party,

118
00:08:53,876 --> 00:08:57,476
Speaker 1: a foot roast. A foot roast is sort of a

119
00:08:57,476 --> 00:09:03,356
Speaker 1: comedy roast in which my friends teased me about both

120
00:09:03,396 --> 00:09:09,756
Speaker 1: having cancer and about preparing for an amputation, and sort

121
00:09:09,756 --> 00:09:14,676
Speaker 1: of everybody came up and did a few minutes of

122
00:09:15,036 --> 00:09:20,916
Speaker 1: stand up so again osteo sarcoma. Of course, Scott gets

123
00:09:20,956 --> 00:09:24,556
Speaker 1: basically the Harvard of cancers. I'm not sure if you've

124
00:09:24,596 --> 00:09:27,716
Speaker 1: heard of it. Only about one in three hundred thousand

125
00:09:27,756 --> 00:09:35,116
Speaker 1: people get it each year. I think everybody feels uncomfortable

126
00:09:35,476 --> 00:09:44,876
Speaker 1: with illness and with disability, and I think this word

127
00:09:45,596 --> 00:09:48,956
Speaker 1: amputation amputee is really ugly, and I think it like

128
00:09:49,156 --> 00:09:54,156
Speaker 1: speaks of deformity, and I think it's scary. So I

129
00:09:54,196 --> 00:09:58,116
Speaker 1: think this was a way that everybody could kind of

130
00:09:58,996 --> 00:10:04,396
Speaker 1: confront it with levity. One of our friends said, you know,

131
00:10:04,436 --> 00:10:07,796
Speaker 1: you may be losing your foot, but at least everything

132
00:10:07,796 --> 00:10:09,796
Speaker 1: you do from here on out will be con cosidered brave.

133
00:10:11,116 --> 00:10:13,436
Speaker 1: I mean, I just I really appreciate the ir reverence.

134
00:10:13,476 --> 00:10:17,636
Speaker 1: But wow to me that it's such a revealing anecdote,

135
00:10:17,916 --> 00:10:20,916
Speaker 1: and I think says so much about who you are

136
00:10:20,956 --> 00:10:24,356
Speaker 1: in the way that you're processing it. I think very

137
00:10:24,436 --> 00:10:29,396
Speaker 1: few people could find humor in tragedy so quickly after

138
00:10:29,756 --> 00:10:33,596
Speaker 1: a diagnosis like this. Is that just who you are,

139
00:10:33,636 --> 00:10:39,436
Speaker 1: is that how you sometimes process grief for trauma, Humor

140
00:10:39,836 --> 00:10:42,916
Speaker 1: is sort of one of the most important things to

141
00:10:42,996 --> 00:10:49,436
Speaker 1: me and so this is a weird, crazy situation, but

142
00:10:49,756 --> 00:10:54,916
Speaker 1: there's also a lot to laugh about. So your cancer

143
00:10:54,956 --> 00:11:00,236
Speaker 1: treatment has recently required that you moved to Texas MD Anderson.

144
00:11:00,756 --> 00:11:06,036
Speaker 1: You are now in a ward that exclusively involves cancer, right, So,

145
00:11:06,076 --> 00:11:09,236
Speaker 1: like every patient you're seeing every day has cancer. Do

146
00:11:09,236 --> 00:11:12,036
Speaker 1: you feel a sense of camaraderie because you're all going

147
00:11:12,076 --> 00:11:15,916
Speaker 1: through a similar experience. Yeah, it's a little bit like

148
00:11:15,956 --> 00:11:19,316
Speaker 1: a factory. I mean, so many patients go through it.

149
00:11:19,316 --> 00:11:24,876
Speaker 1: It's like cancer Disneyland. But there's something just nice about

150
00:11:24,876 --> 00:11:29,916
Speaker 1: seeing other people. You know, not having hair is the

151
00:11:29,996 --> 00:11:35,756
Speaker 1: norm there. So yeah, it's nice to be in that

152
00:11:35,916 --> 00:11:41,116
Speaker 1: environment where everybody has cancer, and it's it's so interesting.

153
00:11:41,156 --> 00:11:45,396
Speaker 1: Like I remember the other day, my wife was driving

154
00:11:45,396 --> 00:11:50,116
Speaker 1: me to an appointment and somebody cut her off in

155
00:11:51,036 --> 00:11:55,716
Speaker 1: the parking lot and she sort of honked, and I

156
00:11:55,756 --> 00:12:00,676
Speaker 1: reminded her, like, honey, everybody here has cancer. Everybody's having

157
00:12:00,676 --> 00:12:05,676
Speaker 1: a shitty day because they're coming to MD Anderson to

158
00:12:05,716 --> 00:12:08,156
Speaker 1: either talk to a doctor about their own cancer or

159
00:12:08,156 --> 00:12:09,836
Speaker 1: a company a loved one to do that. So like,

160
00:12:10,676 --> 00:12:12,836
Speaker 1: we're all going through something bad and it kind of

161
00:12:12,876 --> 00:12:15,556
Speaker 1: puts things into perspective that it gives you a certain

162
00:12:15,556 --> 00:12:18,996
Speaker 1: amount of empathy. It's easy to have road rage to

163
00:12:19,116 --> 00:12:22,796
Speaker 1: a stranger, but here you you kind of it's like

164
00:12:23,476 --> 00:12:27,996
Speaker 1: every stranger there's like you know something very private about them,

165
00:12:28,156 --> 00:12:32,156
Speaker 1: Like having a cancer diagnosis or a family member with

166
00:12:32,356 --> 00:12:36,556
Speaker 1: cancer is sort of a private pain. And here you

167
00:12:36,596 --> 00:12:41,676
Speaker 1: are in this large institution swarming with people, and you

168
00:12:41,716 --> 00:12:46,316
Speaker 1: know something very intimate about each one of them, And

169
00:12:46,876 --> 00:12:50,036
Speaker 1: it means you're kind of nicer to everybody on the elevator.

170
00:12:50,036 --> 00:12:53,116
Speaker 1: You like hold the door for people that you you

171
00:12:53,196 --> 00:12:57,036
Speaker 1: might not otherwise think about, and so it does engender

172
00:12:57,076 --> 00:13:03,116
Speaker 1: a certain amount of positivity in light of what's usually

173
00:13:03,156 --> 00:13:07,676
Speaker 1: a crappy day for people. I wonder how involved you

174
00:13:07,716 --> 00:13:11,916
Speaker 1: were in your treatment plan, because on the one hand,

175
00:13:11,956 --> 00:13:16,956
Speaker 1: you're an extremely knowledgeable, scientifically minded patient who can do

176
00:13:17,116 --> 00:13:20,196
Speaker 1: his own research. On the other hand, maybe there's a

177
00:13:20,236 --> 00:13:24,516
Speaker 1: simplicity and deciding to defer decision making to some other

178
00:13:24,596 --> 00:13:27,796
Speaker 1: person to put it all on them. Yeah, that's a

179
00:13:27,796 --> 00:13:31,556
Speaker 1: super interesting question. There's something soothing about just being taken

180
00:13:31,596 --> 00:13:35,756
Speaker 1: care of. But I also just find this stuff really interesting,

181
00:13:35,836 --> 00:13:39,716
Speaker 1: Like it was very weird to be talking about biopsy

182
00:13:39,796 --> 00:13:44,756
Speaker 1: results and surgical decisions. It felt kind of abstract to me,

183
00:13:44,836 --> 00:13:47,396
Speaker 1: just because I could get into the weeds about the

184
00:13:47,756 --> 00:13:50,036
Speaker 1: trade offs and oh how do you do that? And

185
00:13:50,076 --> 00:13:54,516
Speaker 1: how is that even possible? And it didn't necessarily always

186
00:13:54,516 --> 00:13:57,076
Speaker 1: feel like I was talking about my own treatment plan.

187
00:13:58,116 --> 00:14:04,476
Speaker 1: So I definitely I found some perverse excitement about engaging

188
00:14:04,476 --> 00:14:08,836
Speaker 1: with these well trained and very smart people on their

189
00:14:09,196 --> 00:14:12,276
Speaker 1: dick matter. Did you do your own research at every

190
00:14:12,276 --> 00:14:17,036
Speaker 1: step along the way? Oh definitely, And so yeah, I

191
00:14:17,076 --> 00:14:21,836
Speaker 1: got I got really in the weeds reading the medical

192
00:14:21,876 --> 00:14:27,596
Speaker 1: literature and trying to make the best decision, but also

193
00:14:28,396 --> 00:14:32,436
Speaker 1: knowing that the best decision wasn't always the most pleasant decision,

194
00:14:32,756 --> 00:14:36,276
Speaker 1: you know, So if chemotherapy would extend my life, it

195
00:14:36,436 --> 00:14:45,156
Speaker 1: also really sucks. So that's the challenge of making a

196
00:14:45,236 --> 00:14:50,436
Speaker 1: decision for yourself. Anyway, It does make you prone to

197
00:14:53,236 --> 00:14:58,276
Speaker 1: regret because you didn't just you didn't necessarily follow the

198
00:14:58,316 --> 00:15:03,276
Speaker 1: protocol and the decision is on your shoulders in a way.

199
00:15:03,796 --> 00:15:05,716
Speaker 1: What has it been like to see your body change

200
00:15:05,876 --> 00:15:12,116
Speaker 1: in this way? Yeah, it's been hard. Yeah, I feel

201
00:15:12,116 --> 00:15:15,996
Speaker 1: like I am more concerned on any given day, I'm

202
00:15:16,036 --> 00:15:19,916
Speaker 1: more concerned with losing my six pack than I am

203
00:15:19,996 --> 00:15:25,236
Speaker 1: with the possibility that this disease might kill me. Maybe

204
00:15:25,236 --> 00:15:29,036
Speaker 1: it's just because it's more present, and that's just a

205
00:15:29,076 --> 00:15:33,596
Speaker 1: flaw in my and vanity, and it's it's not something

206
00:15:33,636 --> 00:15:37,436
Speaker 1: I'm particularly proud of. Just yeah, maybe just a quirk

207
00:15:37,476 --> 00:15:44,116
Speaker 1: of my brain where it's certainly more present than mortality.

208
00:15:44,796 --> 00:15:47,636
Speaker 1: I don't think it's just your brain, Scott. I find

209
00:15:47,676 --> 00:15:50,476
Speaker 1: so much resonance in that, and I think it is

210
00:15:50,596 --> 00:15:53,876
Speaker 1: very brave of you to admit that, because I think,

211
00:15:53,916 --> 00:15:56,436
Speaker 1: you know, there's this narrative out there like, oh, you know,

212
00:15:56,836 --> 00:15:58,756
Speaker 1: I should just be grateful that I'm alive, Like why

213
00:15:58,796 --> 00:16:02,196
Speaker 1: am I caring about all these small things? But you know,

214
00:16:02,996 --> 00:16:05,596
Speaker 1: a huge part of who we are is is how

215
00:16:05,636 --> 00:16:08,516
Speaker 1: we feel, and sometimes, you know, as much as we

216
00:16:08,596 --> 00:16:11,436
Speaker 1: might hate to it is what we look like. Yeah,

217
00:16:11,436 --> 00:16:16,316
Speaker 1: I miss my beard. Then again, I think I'm gradually

218
00:16:16,356 --> 00:16:18,396
Speaker 1: warming to this idea. And I don't want to act

219
00:16:18,436 --> 00:16:25,196
Speaker 1: like I'm reformed, but it does. As I'm sort of

220
00:16:25,596 --> 00:16:33,036
Speaker 1: gradually losing function, as I've deconditioned and become less agile

221
00:16:33,076 --> 00:16:37,916
Speaker 1: and more frail, I'm warming to this idea that identity

222
00:16:38,076 --> 00:16:41,956
Speaker 1: is a little more plastic. Even though I can't do

223
00:16:41,996 --> 00:16:46,476
Speaker 1: a handstand right now, I'm still me these things that

224
00:16:46,556 --> 00:16:51,436
Speaker 1: I thought were core to my personality and to my existence,

225
00:16:52,996 --> 00:16:58,716
Speaker 1: like my athletic prowess, whatever it was. As I'm losing

226
00:16:58,756 --> 00:17:02,036
Speaker 1: those things at it suggests that a lot of these

227
00:17:02,796 --> 00:17:10,876
Speaker 1: things are more more negotiable than I thought. We'll be

228
00:17:10,996 --> 00:17:25,156
Speaker 1: right back with a slight change of plans. What has

229
00:17:25,196 --> 00:17:30,716
Speaker 1: it been like to confront death in this way? How

230
00:17:30,836 --> 00:17:35,076
Speaker 1: I confronted death? Or have you confronted it? I mean

231
00:17:35,076 --> 00:17:37,516
Speaker 1: maybe you haven't, which is also completely fine, you know,

232
00:17:38,756 --> 00:17:44,716
Speaker 1: Oh god, it's so weird that the death is feels

233
00:17:44,796 --> 00:17:52,436
Speaker 1: very theoretical because the experience of the disease was really

234
00:17:52,476 --> 00:17:58,156
Speaker 1: just my ankle hurts and jogging is just is uncomfortable.

235
00:17:58,716 --> 00:18:04,836
Speaker 1: And then it's been the treatment that vastly overtakes the

236
00:18:04,876 --> 00:18:10,276
Speaker 1: disease in terms of unpleasantness and discomfort. But in order

237
00:18:10,316 --> 00:18:17,636
Speaker 1: to undergo this hideous array of treatment, I have to

238
00:18:17,636 --> 00:18:20,236
Speaker 1: operate in the assumption that I'm going to come out

239
00:18:20,236 --> 00:18:23,596
Speaker 1: on the other side and live a long life, because

240
00:18:23,636 --> 00:18:28,596
Speaker 1: otherwise what's the point. So day to day I function

241
00:18:28,676 --> 00:18:31,436
Speaker 1: as though I will be a long term survivor of

242
00:18:31,516 --> 00:18:36,956
Speaker 1: this disease. It will be a formative, character defining experience.

243
00:18:37,236 --> 00:18:41,036
Speaker 1: But I don't think that I'm going to die now.

244
00:18:41,476 --> 00:18:44,556
Speaker 1: And it's hard to like share those two things because

245
00:18:44,556 --> 00:18:51,236
Speaker 1: of course, when I have been diagnosed with something that

246
00:18:52,236 --> 00:18:59,036
Speaker 1: tends to kill people, you do need to appreciate maybe

247
00:18:59,236 --> 00:19:01,076
Speaker 1: maybe you should change your behavior in some way or

248
00:19:01,156 --> 00:19:04,356
Speaker 1: change the lens with which you look at the world.

249
00:19:04,396 --> 00:19:09,916
Speaker 1: But you also should if you're to survive. I've probably

250
00:19:09,956 --> 00:19:11,716
Speaker 1: act as if you're going to survive, you know, fake

251
00:19:11,756 --> 00:19:15,036
Speaker 1: it until you make it. I can fully appreciate a

252
00:19:15,196 --> 00:19:17,916
Speaker 1: rational commitment to that, but when I think about myself,

253
00:19:17,996 --> 00:19:22,116
Speaker 1: I would crack and break. I mean, my emotions would

254
00:19:22,116 --> 00:19:24,756
Speaker 1: get ahead of me for sure. And you think so,

255
00:19:25,036 --> 00:19:27,756
Speaker 1: But do you have those moments of weakness and vulnerability

256
00:19:27,756 --> 00:19:30,076
Speaker 1: where you're like, look, my rational brain is telling me

257
00:19:30,116 --> 00:19:32,636
Speaker 1: to act this way, but like God, this just really

258
00:19:32,676 --> 00:19:36,796
Speaker 1: sucks and I feel really despondent or I'm just so

259
00:19:37,076 --> 00:19:44,676
Speaker 1: enraged by this situation. Yes, but I was on mushrooms,

260
00:19:45,236 --> 00:19:48,596
Speaker 1: so that doesn't really count. I think, oh, wait, this

261
00:19:48,636 --> 00:19:50,636
Speaker 1: is so interesting. Do you do a trip with the

262
00:19:50,676 --> 00:19:52,316
Speaker 1: hopes that it would change your perspective when it came

263
00:19:52,316 --> 00:19:54,196
Speaker 1: to cancer, Because I know there's all these studies happening

264
00:19:54,236 --> 00:19:58,276
Speaker 1: right now. It was clear that I had some processing

265
00:19:58,276 --> 00:19:59,916
Speaker 1: to do, and it felt like this could be a

266
00:19:59,996 --> 00:20:08,196
Speaker 1: useful aid confronting mortality and fairly scary statistics about my

267
00:20:08,556 --> 00:20:11,276
Speaker 1: long term revival. I don't know, I guess just to

268
00:20:11,356 --> 00:20:16,756
Speaker 1: let that all sink in to marinate in my skull, needed,

269
00:20:17,636 --> 00:20:26,636
Speaker 1: potentially needed some enhancement, some external enhancement. The experience that

270
00:20:27,156 --> 00:20:31,196
Speaker 1: made me cry was imagining the situation from the point

271
00:20:31,196 --> 00:20:34,436
Speaker 1: of view of my mom and sort of the pain

272
00:20:34,476 --> 00:20:39,676
Speaker 1: of having a child diagnosed with a life threatening condition

273
00:20:39,716 --> 00:20:43,796
Speaker 1: and be at risk of dying. I'm an only child,

274
00:20:43,836 --> 00:20:46,076
Speaker 1: I'm close with my mom, and for some reason, that

275
00:20:46,156 --> 00:20:51,796
Speaker 1: perspective shift that was is always possible, but is somehow

276
00:20:51,916 --> 00:20:57,076
Speaker 1: made more tangible when you're on substances like that drove

277
00:20:57,116 --> 00:21:01,676
Speaker 1: me to tears. I'm curious to know how you know

278
00:21:01,716 --> 00:21:06,156
Speaker 1: you're going through this huge personal and physical change, And

279
00:21:06,396 --> 00:21:09,396
Speaker 1: one thing that's hard to anticipate is how the people

280
00:21:09,396 --> 00:21:11,956
Speaker 1: in your life are going to change as a result

281
00:21:12,076 --> 00:21:14,356
Speaker 1: of the diagnosis, change the way they interact with you.

282
00:21:15,076 --> 00:21:19,556
Speaker 1: Have you noticed any changes. I think a lot of

283
00:21:19,556 --> 00:21:24,236
Speaker 1: people would think that since I have quote real problems,

284
00:21:24,996 --> 00:21:30,076
Speaker 1: their problems seem insignificant. I think what I've learned through

285
00:21:30,076 --> 00:21:35,516
Speaker 1: this experience is that there's such a degree of homeostasis

286
00:21:35,676 --> 00:21:41,556
Speaker 1: in the human mind that your problems are your problems.

287
00:21:42,236 --> 00:21:45,116
Speaker 1: That means that when something is bothering you, whether it's

288
00:21:45,276 --> 00:21:48,396
Speaker 1: a life threatening thing or a very minor thing, it

289
00:21:48,516 --> 00:21:51,996
Speaker 1: still kind of occupies the full bandwidth. So it doesn't

290
00:21:51,996 --> 00:21:57,596
Speaker 1: annoy you when you hear people talking about more everyday problems. No. No,

291
00:21:58,236 --> 00:22:02,876
Speaker 1: my best friends biggest toughest decision he's working with right

292
00:22:02,876 --> 00:22:06,596
Speaker 1: now is which blue apron item to cook tonight? And

293
00:22:07,036 --> 00:22:09,396
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about should I do that to do the

294
00:22:09,436 --> 00:22:13,036
Speaker 1: surgery after cycle four or after cycle five? And how

295
00:22:13,076 --> 00:22:18,756
Speaker 1: will that affect my my survival and recovery and everything

296
00:22:18,836 --> 00:22:23,876
Speaker 1: like that. So I could see why there would be

297
00:22:23,916 --> 00:22:30,756
Speaker 1: some hesitation in connecting, But I think I mean a

298
00:22:30,756 --> 00:22:34,356
Speaker 1: lot of those Maybe if there was an advice for

299
00:22:34,556 --> 00:22:39,196
Speaker 1: your listeners in that category of things. Um, it's less

300
00:22:39,236 --> 00:22:43,956
Speaker 1: about what you say and more just the fact that

301
00:22:43,996 --> 00:22:49,316
Speaker 1: you're saying anything at all. You see this caring. Yeah,

302
00:22:49,476 --> 00:22:52,516
Speaker 1: have you noticed that any of your friendships feel different

303
00:22:52,516 --> 00:22:56,116
Speaker 1: now though, or that you're, you know, for someone who

304
00:22:56,196 --> 00:23:00,276
Speaker 1: is normally just so self sufficient and independent, all of

305
00:23:00,316 --> 00:23:03,796
Speaker 1: a sudden you're on the receiving end of all of

306
00:23:03,836 --> 00:23:05,716
Speaker 1: a sudden you're on the receiving end of pity, and

307
00:23:05,796 --> 00:23:07,756
Speaker 1: that might be a foreign feeling. I mean, do you

308
00:23:07,876 --> 00:23:12,436
Speaker 1: do you feel that way does make you uncomfortable? I

309
00:23:12,596 --> 00:23:14,796
Speaker 1: just assume that they envy me for so many other

310
00:23:14,836 --> 00:23:19,236
Speaker 1: reasons that it just balances things out. I love that.

311
00:23:21,116 --> 00:23:23,556
Speaker 1: What about in your relationship, what's been the hardest part

312
00:23:23,556 --> 00:23:27,116
Speaker 1: about being newly married and having to go through this

313
00:23:27,236 --> 00:23:33,756
Speaker 1: with your new wife? Yeah, I mean I think in

314
00:23:33,756 --> 00:23:41,516
Speaker 1: our relationship, I think I had been sort of the more.

315
00:23:42,836 --> 00:23:45,876
Speaker 1: I had been, more of a provider, more of a caretaker,

316
00:23:47,436 --> 00:23:50,716
Speaker 1: more of a rock, and then here I was sort

317
00:23:50,716 --> 00:23:56,756
Speaker 1: of crumbling, and I think it caused a little bit

318
00:23:56,756 --> 00:24:04,396
Speaker 1: of a reconfiguration of our roles, hopefully temporarily. When you

319
00:24:06,676 --> 00:24:08,596
Speaker 1: sign up to build a life with somebody and then

320
00:24:08,636 --> 00:24:16,636
Speaker 1: you learn that they may not live to fulfill that dream,

321
00:24:16,916 --> 00:24:20,716
Speaker 1: it must be really hard. And I think that has been.

322
00:24:22,076 --> 00:24:24,436
Speaker 1: I mean, that has been in some ways what has

323
00:24:24,476 --> 00:24:28,436
Speaker 1: motivated me to treat this very aggressively, even if it

324
00:24:28,636 --> 00:24:32,756
Speaker 1: will cause long term damage to my heart or neuropathy,

325
00:24:34,316 --> 00:24:39,556
Speaker 1: that is preferable to perishing. So I think seeing it

326
00:24:40,036 --> 00:24:45,916
Speaker 1: through her eyes has been hard but also motivational. Has

327
00:24:45,916 --> 00:24:48,356
Speaker 1: there been anything that surprised you about the way that

328
00:24:48,396 --> 00:24:55,636
Speaker 1: you've adapted to this cancer diagnosis and treatment. Yeah. When

329
00:24:55,636 --> 00:24:59,196
Speaker 1: you get to the other side of these events, events

330
00:24:59,236 --> 00:25:06,196
Speaker 1: like a diagnosis like this, it feels like the emotional

331
00:25:06,236 --> 00:25:11,836
Speaker 1: thermostat has prevailed and I am generally just as happy

332
00:25:11,876 --> 00:25:17,236
Speaker 1: as I was a year ago. There are moments of

333
00:25:17,396 --> 00:25:26,276
Speaker 1: more acute discomfort, uh, nausea and pain and helplessness, etc.

334
00:25:26,716 --> 00:25:31,116
Speaker 1: But like the good moments are just as good. And

335
00:25:32,476 --> 00:25:34,436
Speaker 1: on a Sunday morning, you're drinking a cup of coffee,

336
00:25:34,436 --> 00:25:37,236
Speaker 1: you're looking out the window. It's like that moment is

337
00:25:37,356 --> 00:25:39,916
Speaker 1: just as nice as it as it was a year ago,

338
00:25:40,556 --> 00:25:45,036
Speaker 1: and that although my experience may be punctuated by a

339
00:25:45,036 --> 00:25:50,476
Speaker 1: lot of negative experiences, that plenty of very nice moments remain.

340
00:25:52,156 --> 00:25:57,036
Speaker 1: I think that people like yourself included, would predict that

341
00:25:57,076 --> 00:25:58,916
Speaker 1: you would just be a total wreck and it would

342
00:25:58,916 --> 00:26:07,236
Speaker 1: be absolutely constant misery. But I guess I don't know.

343
00:26:07,276 --> 00:26:11,436
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe it's it's it's resilience that is unique,

344
00:26:11,436 --> 00:26:14,796
Speaker 1: but I doubt it. And this was unexpected, right, I mean,

345
00:26:14,796 --> 00:26:20,396
Speaker 1: you didn't predict this. Yeah, it's interesting because I mean

346
00:26:20,396 --> 00:26:22,876
Speaker 1: it's certainly a pain in the ass, But if you

347
00:26:22,996 --> 00:26:27,956
Speaker 1: knew how generally normal I would feel, it's like, would

348
00:26:27,996 --> 00:26:30,076
Speaker 1: you would you work so hard to avoid this outcome?

349
00:26:30,116 --> 00:26:32,356
Speaker 1: I mean, that's sort of a weird and weird argument,

350
00:26:32,396 --> 00:26:34,636
Speaker 1: but oh interesting, No, I want to so. So what

351
00:26:34,676 --> 00:26:38,436
Speaker 1: you're saying is like, if I'd known that I would

352
00:26:38,476 --> 00:26:42,156
Speaker 1: adapt in this way and achieve my former happiness levels,

353
00:26:43,076 --> 00:26:46,236
Speaker 1: was there justification for me to be so fearful of

354
00:26:46,316 --> 00:26:48,436
Speaker 1: cancer in the first place. Is that kind of what

355
00:26:48,436 --> 00:26:51,796
Speaker 1: you're getting at? Yeah, right, I think that is. I

356
00:26:51,836 --> 00:26:53,956
Speaker 1: think that's that's well said that I think you put

357
00:26:53,956 --> 00:26:57,116
Speaker 1: it together better than I could. So I don't think

358
00:26:57,156 --> 00:27:05,036
Speaker 1: it's like one ought to just forsake helpful habits in

359
00:27:05,116 --> 00:27:10,436
Speaker 1: order because they realize that doesn't doesn't particularly matter, but

360
00:27:10,436 --> 00:27:13,876
Speaker 1: but I think it might serve you to worry a

361
00:27:13,916 --> 00:27:19,356
Speaker 1: little bit less. How has this experience changed your relationship

362
00:27:19,396 --> 00:27:22,316
Speaker 1: with control? As you said earlier in the interview, you're

363
00:27:22,956 --> 00:27:26,236
Speaker 1: kind of self proclaimed control freak, and yeah, I do

364
00:27:26,276 --> 00:27:28,956
Speaker 1: wonder if you think differently about that and how that

365
00:27:29,036 --> 00:27:31,836
Speaker 1: might affect the way you live the rest of your life.

366
00:27:32,996 --> 00:27:41,436
Speaker 1: It really makes you understand that you are not in

367
00:27:41,516 --> 00:27:46,556
Speaker 1: control and it's a little refreshing in a way, like

368
00:27:46,596 --> 00:27:50,996
Speaker 1: you can sort of release the grip on the steering

369
00:27:51,036 --> 00:27:53,556
Speaker 1: wheel a little bit, and that kind of eases tension

370
00:27:53,956 --> 00:27:58,956
Speaker 1: throughout your entire body. When you realize that you can

371
00:27:59,036 --> 00:28:02,276
Speaker 1: do your best, you can control like ninety nine percent

372
00:28:02,356 --> 00:28:05,436
Speaker 1: of outcomes, but there are certain things that just come

373
00:28:05,436 --> 00:28:08,636
Speaker 1: at you that you had no chance against. Well, I

374
00:28:08,676 --> 00:28:12,396
Speaker 1: love that. It's really beautiful, Scott. I think there are

375
00:28:12,396 --> 00:28:15,036
Speaker 1: many listeners who are currently in the throes of a

376
00:28:15,036 --> 00:28:18,716
Speaker 1: big life change and it is unresolved, and I'm wondering

377
00:28:18,836 --> 00:28:23,076
Speaker 1: if you have any advice for people who don't, who

378
00:28:23,156 --> 00:28:25,556
Speaker 1: don't know the end yet right they don't, they don't

379
00:28:25,556 --> 00:28:27,796
Speaker 1: have that clarity. How you deal with that kind of

380
00:28:27,836 --> 00:28:39,556
Speaker 1: uncertainty Mushrooms. I mean, this is I am far from

381
00:28:39,556 --> 00:28:43,916
Speaker 1: a zen master, and my meditation practice has long since lapsed,

382
00:28:45,316 --> 00:28:52,556
Speaker 1: but there is a certain comfort in appreciating what's happening

383
00:28:52,636 --> 00:28:59,796
Speaker 1: right now, and usually whatever crisis is looming isn't affecting

384
00:28:59,796 --> 00:29:06,236
Speaker 1: what's happening right now, and that if you just notice

385
00:29:06,276 --> 00:29:11,156
Speaker 1: it and appreciate it, it can provide a lot of comfort.

386
00:29:11,516 --> 00:29:15,356
Speaker 1: And you realize that if right now is fine, and

387
00:29:15,356 --> 00:29:19,316
Speaker 1: then the same thing happens tomorrow, and tomorrow is fine,

388
00:29:19,996 --> 00:29:24,356
Speaker 1: then it's probably going to continue along that path. Yeah.

389
00:29:24,396 --> 00:29:26,076
Speaker 1: I think that's really helpful. I also like how you

390
00:29:26,116 --> 00:29:29,636
Speaker 1: just framed it as fine. You know, yeah, you know, yeah,

391
00:29:29,676 --> 00:29:32,716
Speaker 1: but it's fine, it's fine exactly. I think listeners are

392
00:29:32,716 --> 00:29:34,796
Speaker 1: going to be really lucky to be able to hear

393
00:29:35,596 --> 00:29:38,076
Speaker 1: the full range of your thoughts. That's very kind of

394
00:29:38,116 --> 00:29:39,916
Speaker 1: you to say, yeah, no, I really mean it. So

395
00:29:39,996 --> 00:30:03,396
Speaker 1: thank you so much. Hey, thanks for listening. If you're

396
00:30:03,436 --> 00:30:06,476
Speaker 1: enjoying a slight change of plans, please make sure to subscribe,

397
00:30:06,556 --> 00:30:09,916
Speaker 1: rate and share the show with friends. Join me next week.

398
00:30:09,956 --> 00:30:13,236
Speaker 1: When I talked with Morgan Gibbons, a transgender man in

399
00:30:13,276 --> 00:30:16,116
Speaker 1: his twenties, he underwent hormone therapy to bring his body

400
00:30:16,156 --> 00:30:19,876
Speaker 1: into alignment with his male gender identity, I found myself

401
00:30:19,876 --> 00:30:25,076
Speaker 1: skipping at home. You know, I'm six one and I

402
00:30:25,116 --> 00:30:27,596
Speaker 1: am a pretty gigantic black person. But I had so

403
00:30:27,716 --> 00:30:29,876
Speaker 1: much joy in that moment that I literally could not

404
00:30:29,996 --> 00:30:33,396
Speaker 1: contain it. But Morgan's joy was short lived when he

405
00:30:33,436 --> 00:30:35,796
Speaker 1: was confronted with the reality of being a black man

406
00:30:35,916 --> 00:30:41,556
Speaker 1: in society. You know, there was this aspect of feeling

407
00:30:41,596 --> 00:30:48,556
Speaker 1: completely boxed in and caged by womanhood and my femininity,

408
00:30:48,596 --> 00:30:51,276
Speaker 1: and I broke free of that, you know, I broke

409
00:30:51,316 --> 00:30:54,876
Speaker 1: free of it for a little while. I had a

410
00:30:54,916 --> 00:30:58,996
Speaker 1: few moments in the sun, you know. But the longer

411
00:30:59,036 --> 00:31:02,276
Speaker 1: I've gone since that moment, the more I've realized how

412
00:31:02,436 --> 00:31:07,276
Speaker 1: I have become caged once again. I'm not as free

413
00:31:07,956 --> 00:31:20,116
Speaker 1: as I thought I would. A Slight Change of Plans

414
00:31:20,276 --> 00:31:23,916
Speaker 1: is created an executive produce by me Maya Schunker. Big

415
00:31:24,076 --> 00:31:28,356
Speaker 1: thanks to everyone at Pushkin Industries, including our producer Mola Board,

416
00:31:28,636 --> 00:31:33,276
Speaker 1: associate producers David Jaw and Julia Goodman, executive producers Mia

417
00:31:33,356 --> 00:31:37,636
Speaker 1: Lavelle and Justine Lange, senior editor Jen Guera, and sound

418
00:31:37,636 --> 00:31:42,276
Speaker 1: design and mixed engineers Ben Taliday and Jason Gambrel. Thanks

419
00:31:42,316 --> 00:31:44,916
Speaker 1: also to Louis Gara who wrote our theme song, and

420
00:31:45,036 --> 00:31:48,756
Speaker 1: Ginger Smith who helped arrange the vocals, incidental music from

421
00:31:48,756 --> 00:31:52,636
Speaker 1: Epidemic Sound, and of course a very special thanks to

422
00:31:52,756 --> 00:31:55,716
Speaker 1: Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight Change of Plans

423
00:31:55,716 --> 00:32:08,836
Speaker 1: on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. I finally have I

424
00:32:09,196 --> 00:32:11,636
Speaker 1: finally have someone to write the perfect college essay about

425
00:32:12,476 --> 00:32:16,476
Speaker 1: just about fifteen years. Yeah, came a little late. Certainly

426
00:32:16,516 --> 00:32:18,436
Speaker 1: you already got into Harvard. Scott all right, we want

427
00:32:18,476 --> 00:32:20,116
Speaker 1: to get into Harvard. Plus, come on,