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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, A production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Happy Friday, Everybody. I'm Holly Fry

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Speaker 1: and I'm Tracy Vie Wilson. Tracy, we talked about Joe

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Speaker 1: Nivison Hopper this week. We did, and uh it sucked. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You you worked on this for a while, and you know,

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Speaker 1: we we talked to each other, um as we're working

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Speaker 1: on things and seeing the progression of I think I'm

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Speaker 1: going to do an episode on Edward Hopper and then

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Speaker 1: kind of shifting to be like, I think what I

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Speaker 1: actually want to talk about is his wife, and then

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Speaker 1: increasingly angryous and it's set by the details of their relationship. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean there were I there have been moments in

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Speaker 1: the past where I've been researching something that's already very

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Speaker 1: new and dear to my heart where it's moved me

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Speaker 1: to tears, Like when we did way Back a Million

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Speaker 1: years ago our Haunted Mansion episodes and I had to

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Speaker 1: talk about Whalt dying in the middle of that project.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna cry. I cried during the research. I didn't

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Speaker 1: cry when we recorded that part, surprisingly, but this is

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Speaker 1: one where it was people that I had not had,

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Speaker 1: like a long lifetime knowledge of their story, affinity towards, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: And there were several times where I just had to

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Speaker 1: like push back from the table in my computer and

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Speaker 1: I just sat there and wept for her. Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: and got so angry, like crying angry in some cases

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Speaker 1: where I just wanted to spit bullets through history back

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Speaker 1: to the time machine and clock Edward Hopper squarely in

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Speaker 1: the head. Well and by total coincidence. The last episode

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Speaker 1: that I worked on before recording this one was Bert

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Speaker 1: Morrisseau and the contrast between how her husband approached her

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Speaker 1: career as an artist, which to my knowledge, there was

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Speaker 1: not a sense from him that he was like, well,

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Speaker 1: I love art, the best thing in the world, but

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Speaker 1: I guess I'm gonna give it up and focus. Like

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Speaker 1: I didn't get that sense from them at all. I

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Speaker 1: got way more of a sense that was he was like,

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Speaker 1: I love my wife and I love her work, and

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna support it. Like it was just such the

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Speaker 1: opposite from what we just talked about. Yeah. Uh. There

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Speaker 1: was also I mean this this is not surprising, but

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Speaker 1: I came across one particular article from not too long

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Speaker 1: ago that discussed some of Joe's journals and this whole thing,

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Speaker 1: and they interviewed a person who had known the hoppers

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Speaker 1: and is completely dismissive of the whole thing. And it's

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Speaker 1: very much like Joe was very dramatic. You know, she

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Speaker 1: just did this stuff. She just got herself worked into

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Speaker 1: a tizzy. And I'm like, okay, let's say, for the

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Speaker 1: sake of argument, she was. She admitted herself she was

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Speaker 1: very anxious and could be very excitable and quick to anger.

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Speaker 1: Let's just acknowledge all that and go sure, like, maybe

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Speaker 1: she was dramatic, but there's no denying that, Like she

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Speaker 1: was showing with Picasso before they got married and then

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Speaker 1: her career just went nowhere. And he admitted to her

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Speaker 1: later in life that was what he always wanted. She

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Speaker 1: has every right to be dramatic and angry, in my opinion.

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Speaker 1: And more, these are her journals she was writing for herself,

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Speaker 1: or letters to close friends. It wasn't like she was

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Speaker 1: putting him on blast everywhere. She had nothing to gain

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Speaker 1: from these. So that frustrated me on a whole other

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Speaker 1: level where I'm like, well, how nice for you that

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Speaker 1: you defend your friend who was abusive. Um, it's very frustrating.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's super duper angry, super sad. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I will say this there is Um there's also in

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Speaker 1: terms of historical context, right in her writing about their

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Speaker 1: what sounds like horrible and unpleasant and unhappy sex life,

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Speaker 1: I don't think that was all that uncommon for the time,

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Speaker 1: right in that women were sort of expected to not

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Speaker 1: know anything about sexuality and men just kind of did

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Speaker 1: whatever they wanted. Um, I don't think that's an uncommon

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Speaker 1: story for a wife in the early nine twenties at all.

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Speaker 1: Um and even some of their biographers have mentioned as much,

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Speaker 1: like that this isn't necessarily an outlier unfortunately of a

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Speaker 1: relationship for this time. But it's still just so heartbreaking

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Speaker 1: because she still does want him to love her and

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Speaker 1: find her physically attractive. That plays into a lot of

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Speaker 1: her very like fond discussions of when she's modeling for him,

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Speaker 1: Like she loved to model for him nude because she

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Speaker 1: felt like that was when he desired her the most,

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Speaker 1: and like obviously like was that a remove of kindness

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Speaker 1: because he was painting and not being violent in any way,

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Speaker 1: And it's just like that just adds this other layer

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Speaker 1: to the Onion of Misery, where I'm like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: don't know how we're going to get through this episode,

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Speaker 1: but we did. Yeah, And I'm sorry if it was

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Speaker 1: super unpleasant for listeners. But I also think like that

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Speaker 1: those are important stories to tell. I think there are

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Speaker 1: probably a lot of people, particularly a lot of women,

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Speaker 1: who just like shrank into the background so that their

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Speaker 1: spouse could be the one, particularly in our She mentions

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Speaker 1: other artists wives that she has a similar story with. UM,

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Speaker 1: so it is it's the Downer is Downer of Downeytown

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Speaker 1: I could possibly have put together. Yeah, well, and that's uh. Sometimes,

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Speaker 1: when when it's been so long since we've done a

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Speaker 1: live show and people have asked us about working on

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Speaker 1: difficult episodes, UM, I've sort of felt like a lot

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Speaker 1: of the episodes that we've worked on can sort of

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Speaker 1: be roughly categorized as either we knew something was going

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Speaker 1: to be really difficult and traumatic, but it also seemed

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Speaker 1: like relevant and important to talk about, or we knew

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Speaker 1: that it was going to be kind of traumatic and upsetting,

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Speaker 1: but it turned out to be way worse than we expected.

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Speaker 1: And then sometimes it's like surprised trauma. And this one,

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Speaker 1: I think mostly went into the surprise trauma bucket. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean it was a progression, right, Like, just as

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Speaker 1: I had adjusted to one level of like, oh, this

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Speaker 1: is so sad, then I would turn a page and

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Speaker 1: be like, oh, dear Lord, like it's just got so

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Speaker 1: much worse so quickly. In some cases, yeah, it's very heartbreaking.

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Speaker 1: I will say. If you go to the Whitney's website

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Speaker 1: and you look up particularly that portrait that they have,

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Speaker 1: the colors in it are so beautiful and bubbly. I

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Speaker 1: don't know that it's a sav for all of this,

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Speaker 1: but it is very charming, um, And I hope that

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Speaker 1: we'll see I mean, like I said, there have been places, um,

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Speaker 1: including places that focus a lot on Edward hopperd that

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Speaker 1: have given her exhibits and tried to you know, contextualize

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Speaker 1: all of this and give her her own moment um.

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Speaker 1: But I'm hoping we will have more of those, and

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Speaker 1: that her art will become more easily seen, even if

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Speaker 1: you are not able to attend such events, because you know,

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Speaker 1: I think she's earned it. Yeah, because we've got a show.

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Speaker 1: We talked about the Currenter Commission report. After multiple years

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Speaker 1: of people suggesting that we do uh an episode on

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Speaker 1: this the whole four report. Because it's an official publication

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Speaker 1: of the government, the report itself is not protected by copyright,

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Speaker 1: so the whole thing is on the internet. Um. You

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Speaker 1: can read the whole thing, and it is so much

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Speaker 1: like it's the the descriptions of what had happened in

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Speaker 1: the cities that they looked at in detail is just

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Speaker 1: almost overwhelming is not quite the right word, but like,

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Speaker 1: as you're reading it, you just you are seeing the

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Speaker 1: same patterns that the commission then pointed out in detail.

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Speaker 1: As you're reading the accounts of these and then getting

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Speaker 1: into the individual recommendations that just seventy pages, so many pages.

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Speaker 1: I mentioned at the top of the episode that there

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Speaker 1: is a new condensed version of the report. I haven't

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Speaker 1: specifically read the condensed version because I was looking at

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Speaker 1: the whole entire thing. Um, but that version is meant

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Speaker 1: to be more accessible to like undergraduate classrooms that might

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Speaker 1: want to study this in the context of um, you know,

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Speaker 1: courses on racism or social justice or government or any

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Speaker 1: of that. It's um eye opening and frustrating. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: had been a really long time since I read visited

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Speaker 1: anything about it. Um. I mean I remember um studying

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Speaker 1: it briefly in a class in college, but it was

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Speaker 1: really like not even the condensed version. It was like

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Speaker 1: excerpts that had been pulled out for us. So then

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Speaker 1: when you look at just especially given the place we

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Speaker 1: are all now, yeah, it's a it makes you want

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Speaker 1: to shake your fist at the sky a little bit. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: There is a book about the writing of the report,

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Speaker 1: which I did not I didn't consult that book as

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Speaker 1: a source um during the research on this, but that

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Speaker 1: came out in in conjunction with the fiftieth anniversary of it,

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Speaker 1: and I saw some interviews with the author of it,

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Speaker 1: who I don't I don't want to cast this versions

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Speaker 1: because I've said so many things on the show that

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Speaker 1: did not age well. But it was really interesting to

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Speaker 1: watch and listen to these interviews about the report that

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Speaker 1: we're done in prior to the all the protests that

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Speaker 1: started uh last year, UM, primarily after the murder of

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Speaker 1: George Floyd, but obviously there was a there were a

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Speaker 1: lot of other incidents that were also going on at

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Speaker 1: about the same time, and so I would watch this

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Speaker 1: and then kind of go yikes, like that statement did

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Speaker 1: not wind up particularly true. So yeah, it was a

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Speaker 1: lot to go through. UM. There are lots of different

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Speaker 1: places that have just the summary UM online, and even

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Speaker 1: if reading just the summary, you get a really good

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Speaker 1: idea of what all went into this report and what

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Speaker 1: kinds of things it was recommending. One quote that I

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Speaker 1: had that did not get into the final episode because

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Speaker 1: I was really trying to keep it to a a

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Speaker 1: reasonable length of time. It was a quote from a

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Speaker 1: Dr Kenneth B. Clark, who was quoted in the summary

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Speaker 1: of the report UM and and said, I read that

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Speaker 1: report of the ride in Chicago and it's as if

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Speaker 1: I were reading the report Invests of the Investigating Committee

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Speaker 1: of the Harlem Ride of thirty five, the Report of

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Speaker 1: the Investigating Committee on the Harlem Ride of forty three,

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Speaker 1: the Report of the Macon Commission on the Watts Riot.

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Speaker 1: I must again, in candor say to you members of

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Speaker 1: this commission, it is a kind of Alis in Wonderland,

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Speaker 1: with the same moving picture reshown over and over again,

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Speaker 1: the same analysis, the same recommendations, and the same in action.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, what that that? Sure to sum

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Speaker 1: it up? UM. We mentioned this in the in the episode,

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Speaker 1: but one of the criticisms of it is definitely like

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Speaker 1: this report is looking at violence within black communities as

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Speaker 1: the problem while essentially ignoring the hundreds and hundreds of

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Speaker 1: years of violence enacted against black communities by white mobs,

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Speaker 1: many of which we have talked about on the show before,

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Speaker 1: Like we have spent a lot more time on the

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Speaker 1: show because frankly, there's a much longer history of that. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And the report mentions that kind of stuff in sort

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Speaker 1: of the three year historical overview. But it's just like

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Speaker 1: it doesn't even think that maybe there needs to be

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Speaker 1: a question of that. Yeah, there's like a miss dot

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Speaker 1: that didn't get connected in the drawing. No, that's part

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Speaker 1: of the arc. Oh well, I guess we skipped that

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Speaker 1: archic a little hard on one. Yeah. It also doesn't

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Speaker 1: really thoroughly interrogate why police killed so many people during

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Speaker 1: a lot of these uprisings, beyond making recommendations that police

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Speaker 1: have access to two weapons other than batons and firearms, which,

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Speaker 1: like that has its own complicated history that we've talked

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Speaker 1: about more in our episode on tear gas. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there was so much going on that like somebody could

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Speaker 1: do a whole podcast series. Maybe somebody did. When it

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Speaker 1: was the anniversary to really go through every single chapter

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Speaker 1: of this and talk about, you know, which of these

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Speaker 1: things that had happened which didn't work for like, what

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Speaker 1: was the outcome on all of this? Because there's just

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Speaker 1: a son of it. I'm I'm trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: any kind of um not do me takeaway and I can't. Yes, frustrating. Uh,

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Speaker 1: frustrating is not even an adequate word for that, um

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Speaker 1: at all. It's like it did. As I was reading it,

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Speaker 1: I kept this thinking, Okay, this particular thing seems to

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Speaker 1: be better than it was fifty years ago, but this

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Speaker 1: particular thing feels like it could have been written yesterday.

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Speaker 1: Um yeah. Yeah. It's like I want to be an

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Speaker 1: optimistic and hopeful person and say we're making incremental steps forward,

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Speaker 1: but the increments are so tiny in some cases that

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Speaker 1: like that's not an acceptable degree. Yeah. Well, and that

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Speaker 1: was really like one of the Even though the report

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Speaker 1: did not um specifically discuss a lot of the reforms

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Speaker 1: and things that had happened the previous few years, uh, Like,

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Speaker 1: the report's existence made it clear that things like the

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Speaker 1: Civil Rights Act and all of the other acts that

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Speaker 1: were part of the Great Society programs, like all of

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Speaker 1: those things that made it clear like this is not enough.

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Speaker 1: It's not it's just not not enough. Um. And that

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Speaker 1: was one of the things that made the president's so

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Speaker 1: angry about this report. UM. There are some reports that

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Speaker 1: Johnson tried to like secretly make some of these things

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Speaker 1: like into part of his agenda and the remainder of

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Speaker 1: his presidency. But there are also recorded phone conversations that

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Speaker 1: he had with people where he was like, if I

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Speaker 1: had known that that guy was gonna just take it

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Speaker 1: over and turn it into this whole thing, I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have even done it. Like. He was clearly angry and

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Speaker 1: petulant about the direction the commission went over, the the

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Speaker 1: direction that he thought it was going to go. It's

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Speaker 1: kind of like that age old thing I UH tell people,

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Speaker 1: which is like, don't ask me the question if you

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Speaker 1: don't actually want the answer. Maybe that can be the

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Speaker 1: key takeaway too for today. Uh, don't have a presidential

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Speaker 1: commission examining the causes of violence unless you are prepared

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Speaker 1: to get the actual answer. So happy Friday again. If

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Speaker 1: it's your weekend coming up, have a great time. Not

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Speaker 1: I hope your your days go smoothly. We'll be back

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Speaker 1: with a classic on Saturday in a brand new episode

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Speaker 1: on Monday. Stuff You Missed in History Class is a

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Speaker 1: production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from I

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Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.