1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: Retired Marine Corps General John Kelly stepped down as President 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 1: Trump's Chief of Staff at the end of eighteen after 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:11,879 Speaker 1: more than a year spent managing the daily operations inside 4 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: the West Wing. Kelly spent most of his entire adult 5 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: life serving the nation. He wore a Marine uniform for 6 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: more than forty years. He was briefly retired before joining 7 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: the Trump administration, and June, General Kelly spoke with David Rubinstein, 8 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: co founder of the Carlisle Group and host of the 9 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: Bloomberg television show Peer to Peer Conversations. So let's talk 10 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: about first what it was like to be chief of 11 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,160 Speaker 1: staff to President Trump. Was it all that you thought 12 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: it would be in terms of the difficulty, more difficult 13 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: than you thought, or and you pleased you did the job. 14 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: It was certainly amongst the hardest jobs I've had in 15 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: my life. But I would say this as well, after 16 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: as much time as I had in the military, it 17 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: was the most important thing I ever did. For eighteen months, 18 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: a staff the president the way I think a president 19 00:00:55,800 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: should be staffed, presenting him options, presenting him the experts, 20 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,639 Speaker 1: and with him to talk and hash things out. That's 21 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: what the chief of staff does. That was vitally important, 22 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: and for eighteen months I was there. I think who 23 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: staff the president very effectively. So was it the hardest 24 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: job you've ever had, the most memorable job, the most 25 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: enjoyable job, or just another very interesting job? Now, it 26 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: was very very hard, but very meaningful. Uh, not very enjoyable, 27 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: but you know, I mean it's it was it's staff 28 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: in the president United States. I mean you're trying to 29 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: bring together not only a White House staff, but the 30 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: entire federal government to help him make the kind of decisions, 31 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: whether it's economic decisions, social decisions, or you know, life 32 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: and death wartime decisions. On Washington. It's often said that 33 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: people stab you in the back, but also sometimes they 34 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: stab you in the front. And that's the job that 35 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: often the cheapest staff is said to have. You get 36 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: criticized by everybody. So did you feel that the criticism 37 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: by people were the hacks on you just for any 38 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: reason something that was unfair or not tolerable? You just 39 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: got used to it, Yeah, I would. I would tell 40 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: you I wasn't used to. One of the things that 41 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: struck me right away that I was not used to 42 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 1: coming out of the military was the intense personal ambition, um, 43 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 1: that that people have. And because if that gets out 44 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: of hand, which I think it was out of hand 45 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 1: certainly before my time, and it continued a bit while 46 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: I was there. Uh, people start to do things like 47 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: leak to the press things that are untrue, half true, 48 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: not just towards people at the top like me, but 49 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: their their their colleagues. One of the things I did 50 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: very early on at the when I took over the 51 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: White House. Who's got all of the staff together, and 52 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: there's a lot of them. So I had to do 53 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: several sessions and just said, you know, nowhere in the 54 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: oath of office that you take to you know, support 55 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: defend the Constitution United States. Nowhere in there does it 56 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: say that you should be talking to the press unless 57 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: that's part of your job and authorize. Nowhere does it 58 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 1: say you should be stabbing your colleagues in the back 59 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: so that you look better you serve the nation, um. 60 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: And if if you take the o seriously, you've got 61 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: a job, and I want you to stay. If you 62 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: if you can't do that, find find another place to work. 63 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 1: When you're in the military and you tell people you 64 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: do X, Y or Z, they jump over there in 65 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: trouble or they're going to be court martial or something. 66 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: When you tell people as cheaper staff that they should 67 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: do X, Y or z and they don't do it, 68 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: what can you really do about it? Well, let me 69 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 1: go back to your original stame. In the military. If 70 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: you tell someone to do X, Y or z, um, 71 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: we expect people to question orders, to push back. So 72 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I can't as a commander know everything in 73 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: the White House. U, your right is not. I mean, 74 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: you could fire people, and I had to fire a 75 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: few people, but very very few. They were very disruptive. 76 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: But I had good people. The vast majority of the 77 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: people David that worked there of good people. They just 78 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: need some direction. So when Donald Trump was elected, you 79 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: were already retired from the military. I had retired from 80 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: the military. Uh less, well and about eight months at 81 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: that point, never wanting to work again. Okay, And did 82 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: you know Donald Trump at any point? But not in 83 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: anyone like that. So did you met you met him 84 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 1: in the transition. I assume I received a phone call 85 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: in late November on a Saturday, and uh, they asked 86 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 1: me if I wouldn't consider coming up to Bedminster to 87 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: meet with the President elect, and uh, talked to him 88 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: about going into the administration. My wife after the phone call, 89 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: asked me, you know, what was that all about? And 90 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: I explained to her and I said what he thinks? 91 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: She said, well, you know, uh, if when nothing else 92 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: is a family, we were a family of service. So 93 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:43,280 Speaker 1: why don't you go up and at least talk to them? 94 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: And so I went up the next day to Bedminster, 95 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: talked to the President elect. Bryan's previous was there and 96 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: a couple of other people. We had a short chit chat. 97 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: But ten days later he asked me to come up 98 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: to New York City to Trump Tower. Went up there 99 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: and you offered me the DHS job, And did you say? 100 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: I accept right on the spot. And did you feel 101 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: you really wanted to go into that job again? I know, 102 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: up to that point in time, certainly no other you know, 103 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 1: my lifestyle with service to the nation. Obviously I had 104 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: to get out of out of the Marine Corps. I 105 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 1: was getting too old and and whatnot. But the opportunity 106 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: to serve was was something I really look forward to, 107 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 1: and DHS was a great job. The men and women 108 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: at DHS just phenomenal patriots and they're they're really unsung heroes. 109 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: So you did that job for how long before you 110 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: became chiefest right at six months? I left the job 111 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: in the thirty one July. But did the President call 112 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: you a few times before and say I don't not 113 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 1: don't like my chief of stafford and make a change. 114 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 1: How did you get asked to do the chef of 115 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: staff job? It was, it was around It was a 116 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 1: couple of days before it was announced. During my time 117 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 1: at DHS, I didn't go to the White House a 118 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 1: lot did need to. Most cabinet people are busy doing 119 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: what they do. But he and I had a previous 120 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: discussion on a couple of things that relative to the staff. Anyways, 121 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: he called me and said, hey, I really would like 122 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,239 Speaker 1: you to come on over and be the chief of staff. 123 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: I need you to need you in the leadership to 124 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 1: UH and put this place in the direction. My wife 125 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 1: wouldn't want me to do this. It's a terrible job. 126 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: I don't want to do this. I said, I really 127 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: like DHS. The people were making a difference. An awful 128 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: lot of your agenda is wrapped up in UH DHS. 129 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: But he said, I really need you to do this. 130 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 1: So I did it in prison asked, I did it. 131 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 1: I'd like to talk about the job you did as 132 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 1: chevas Tap before that I could talk about your background. 133 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 1: So where are you are originally from? I grew up 134 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: in Boston, UM, and your family was a blue collar family, 135 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 1: very very blue collar. So your dad was a World 136 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: War two vet. Um, he worked two jobs in his 137 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: old life, you know, maileman and railroad greatest man I Avenue. So, Um, 138 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: you went to high school where St. Mary's High School 139 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 1: and just outside of Boston. And when you graduated, what 140 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: did you do? I went to almost a year of college. 141 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: I had the war was graduating. N the war was 142 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: on coming from the kind of neighborhoo I came from. 143 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: I mean every man in my life growing up as 144 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: a boy was either a World War Two vet or 145 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: a Korean War vet. That's all they talked about. And 146 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: so that you know, we had a draft back then, 147 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: it was relatively easy to get out of the draft. 148 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: I mean you just had to come in with a 149 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: doctor's note or go to college and a lot of deferments. 150 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: I didn't want to get out, and so when I 151 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: passed my draft physical, which would have brought me into 152 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: the army, like most of the guys in my neighborhood 153 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: went in the Marine Corps. I entered the Marine Corps, 154 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: and you became a lieutenant or what was your I 155 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: became a private. Well, I went from private to private 156 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: first class. Ultimately, ultimately I made sergeant as an infantryman 157 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: made sergeant. My mother was diagnosed with cancer. So I 158 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: get out of the Marine Corps, but stayed in in 159 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: in a program that continued my training while I was 160 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: going to college. And as soon as I graduated from 161 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: college University of Massachusetts in Boston, I got commissioned, went 162 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: back to the Marine Corps and stayed forever. So the 163 00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: highest you can become early as a fourth star general 164 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: star and you became a four star. John became a 165 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: four star. Did you ever expect when you were just 166 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: beginning in the Marine corps'd be a four star general? No? 167 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: I mean when I was in an enlisted Marine I 168 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: wanted to be hopefully a n c O. Someday that's corporal. 169 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: I made sergeant. Fits held. Okay, so we're in the 170 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: Marine Corps and as you rise up, eventually one of 171 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: your assignments is to go into Iraq after the invasion 172 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: in two thousand three, So you were in combat and 173 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: you do you expect that you would survive. It was 174 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: fairly dangerous. Well, it is day. I mean there's a 175 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: lot of shooting and bombs and whatnot, but with marines, 176 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: and you take that on as as a as a possibility. 177 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,239 Speaker 1: But we were you know, we when we were designing 178 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: the campaign plan, uh, you know, one of the things 179 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,079 Speaker 1: we did was to you know, the the understand the 180 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: Iraqi army was nothing is even close to us. But 181 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: we designed a strategy that would minimize the amount of 182 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: damage to the country, in the amount of death to 183 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: the Iraqi Army. We went there in our mindset was 184 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: that we were there to We were not there to 185 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: conquer them, but to break them. So we didn't want 186 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: to kill a lot of them, and I mean the 187 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: army obviously, you'd always try to not kill the yet 188 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 1: Rain Corps and the army going in, I think it 189 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: would all be over in one or two weeks, and 190 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: that people would be cheering you while they were cheering us, 191 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,599 Speaker 1: which was almost everywhere we went. They come out in 192 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:19,559 Speaker 1: huge numbers. But the attack part of it, I mean 193 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: was he in a sense was easy. We know where 194 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: we're gonna win, We're going to get the bad Dad 195 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: and you know, enlightening time. And but what we kept 196 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: asking in the Kuwait desert leading up to the invasion 197 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: in March was who's going to take this over from us? 198 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: You know? Mr Rumsfeld had come out very strong and 199 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: said we are not with the U. S. Military is 200 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,439 Speaker 1: not going to get involved in nation building. And our 201 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: question was, Okay, who are we going to turn that 202 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: over to? Because we should start thinking about that now. 203 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: And so the idea that we were going to leave quickly, 204 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: which we military did start to do, but not have 205 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: anyone that turned it over. It was really that was 206 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,959 Speaker 1: caused us great concern as military men. So did men 207 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: working for you get killed under you? And so what 208 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: do you do in that situation? You you send a 209 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: letter to the next to ken or or how how 210 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 1: do you deal with that emotionally? Yeah? Um, well, I 211 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: mean it's it's it's part of the it's part of 212 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: the lifestyle. It's not an easy part of the lifestyle. 213 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: You know. When I was when I was a commander there, 214 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: when I went back for a subsequent tour, I was 215 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: the senior marine commander on the ground, and there are 216 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: a lot of things that you might list that you 217 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: would be woken up for in the middle of the night, 218 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: and I only had two of them. A missing American 219 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: UM because then we had to go to general courts 220 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: to find that person. Uh, and then a death and 221 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: people would say, why did you want to get woken 222 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: up on the deaths? There's nothing you can do as well. 223 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: I think I owe the marine sailor soldier in their 224 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: family at least to be woken up and someone to 225 00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: tell me this young man, this young woman just died 226 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: in the defense of their country. Let's talk about when 227 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: you after you retired. For a while, before you joined 228 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: the Trump administration, you were in the business world or 229 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 1: what were you doing? Not very much. I started working 230 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: with the National Defense University UM, which is part of 231 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: d O D. And then I just started to get 232 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,319 Speaker 1: a couple of opportunities to be on boards. I joined 233 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 1: those boards, but almost as soon as I joined them, 234 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: I was I was disengaging because I had I was 235 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: in the process of going to DHS. Right. So you're 236 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,559 Speaker 1: on some corporate boards for the first time. You're making 237 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: more money than brazilianly you made in the in the 238 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: marine corps. Not huge money, so, but more than the 239 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: Marine Corps. All right, But so going back in the government, 240 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: it was actually another cut in salary. But your family 241 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: didn't say anything about that. I guess what was interesting 242 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: going into DHS. It was about fifty thou dollars more 243 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: than I made a year as as a as a 244 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: four star. And then what I didn't know, and my 245 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: wife said to me after a couple of weeks being 246 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 1: at the White House, she said, I think our pay 247 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: is wrong because the paycheck is quite a bit smaller. 248 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: I didn't realize that took a pretty major pay cut 249 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: to be the chief of STAF. Didn't ask the president. 250 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: Money is not relevant. So let's talk about your family 251 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 1: for a moment. When you're a fourth star, you're often 252 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: traveling all over the place, so h your wife gets 253 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: to travel with you and some of your assignments or not. 254 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: How many different places did you have to move as 255 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: a as a general? Well, when I was my wife, 256 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: she loved that question. Um. When I was at in Miami, 257 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: my wife went to UH Guantanamo obey for three years 258 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 1: so we could have Thanksgiving dinner with the troops down 259 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: there at the detention facility. I took her to Haiti. 260 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: I took her to Ondors once maybe twice, maybe Honduras 261 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: in Guatemala one each, and then once to Peru. What 262 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: about Paris or London? None of that. And so you 263 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: have three children, uh, your father three children? Right? Your 264 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: oldest son is in the military still, he's a lieutenant 265 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: colonel in the Marine Corps, fairly recently promoted, just back 266 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: from his one of his tours from in Iraq. And 267 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: you have a daughter, daughter, and what is she doing? 268 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,319 Speaker 1: But she was with the FBI prior to that, Actually 269 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: she was. She was worked with these the wounded men 270 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,679 Speaker 1: and women, mostly men coming back from the wars at 271 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 1: Bethesda Naval Hospital. And then she went into the FBI. 272 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: She was with the hostage rescue team as one of 273 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: the support people for several years. And you have another 274 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: son who lost his life in military combats. Right. He 275 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 1: was a started off as as an enlisted Marine and 276 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,439 Speaker 1: then became a second lieutenant and was killed in Afghanistan. 277 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: And h did you and your wife say having two 278 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: sons in the Marines was an awful sacrifice for any family? Now, 279 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 1: it's our way of life. That may sound strange to 280 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: the listeners, but it is a way of life, and 281 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: they make their own to make their own decisions. What 282 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: would you say is the best training to be chief 283 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,839 Speaker 1: of staff in the White House, and particularly with President Trump? 284 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 1: What do you think it's the best training? I think one, 285 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: you've got to tell the boss the truth when when 286 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: you don't think he's going down the right road, not 287 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: in front of a bunch of people, but when you 288 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: don't think he's going down the right road, to tell 289 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: him that truth to pol right, someone in the room 290 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: has got to say at the beginning of every conversation 291 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: and at the end, is this good for America? So 292 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: let's go forward now to chief of staff? So you know, 293 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: the chief of staff sounds like a good title. Everybody 294 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: presuming in the government is responsive to you. You can 295 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: call any cabinets secretary and tell him what to do. 296 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: Is not the way it works. I would not say 297 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: I'd tell him what to do. I'd suggest, I mean 298 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: they are cabinet members. Uh. You know. The President puts 299 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: out as you know. I mean, you don't whether it's 300 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: tweets or just his his time with the press, and 301 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: he does a lot of discussion with the press. He 302 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: puts out his feelings on different things. More often than not, 303 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: I would get calls from the cabinet people saying, hey, 304 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: I just heard him say. This is that a change? 305 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 1: Should we react to it? Um So the President is 306 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: never hesitant to to pick up the phone and talk 307 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: to his own cabinet members. And would you ever say 308 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: the President, maybe the tweets are too much to keep 309 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: up with, or maybe you shouldn't tweet as much. Never did. 310 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: The President feels very very strongly, whether you agree with 311 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: this or not, very strongly that he's not dealt with 312 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 1: by the press fairly, and that his tweeting goes around 313 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: the press and gets his his agenda out, his word 314 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: out to the world without having to rely on a 315 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: press conference. Now, let's talk about a few substance issues. 316 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: Early in the administration, when you were at the Department 317 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: of Homeland Security, there was the issue of immigration, the 318 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 1: ban on immigration and so forth. Were you alerted to 319 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: that when you were there, And how do you think 320 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: that ultimately it is now working out? Just a couple 321 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: of three days after I became the DHS secretary, the 322 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: EO came out on the so called travel ban. And 323 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 1: you know, as a sidebar, I would say that the 324 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: countries and the seven countries involved. Uh in the President's thinking, Uh, 325 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: we're all dysfunctional, you know, I mean around you know, 326 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: everyone knows it's a hot bit of terrorism. The other 327 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: countries were dysfunctional. Uh. The entire population of Muslim population 328 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: of those countries added up to about the world's population. 329 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: The point is those countries we had, they don't have 330 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: a process that we could bless and say. The people 331 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: that they say are coming out of those countries to 332 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: come to the United States for whatever reason, there's no 333 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: way to really tell who they are because these countries 334 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: are in a state of collapse. It could have been 335 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: done better. Back to David, the staff process, if that 336 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: had been when I was there, say several months later, 337 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: the idea that the President might want to do that, 338 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: and he has strong feelings on immigration, we all know that. Uh. 339 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: We had run that through this process and uh and 340 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 1: and and at least had a better release plan. When 341 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 1: you were at the White House, you also had the 342 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: wall issue. President really wanted to build a wall. You 343 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: were quoted a few times and saying, well, it doesn't 344 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: have to be a concrete wall, can be see through 345 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 1: or something like that. Was there a difference between you 346 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: and the president on that, and do you think the 347 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 1: wall is a good policy. When I got the DHS, 348 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: I went to the experts, the Customs of Border Protection 349 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: people that that men, you know, the bastion down there, 350 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: that man the watched our on the and said do 351 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: we need a wall? And they said, or some physical barrier? 352 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: The university said we need more we have. Remember back 353 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 1: in I think two thousand six, the Congress authorized over 354 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: six fifty miles of wall and UH Senators Clinton, Schumer, 355 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: and Obama all voted for it. So that was in 356 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: two thousand six, six hundred fifty miles. What we what 357 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,360 Speaker 1: the CVP people would tell the me is we want 358 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: to improve that barrier, and we can give you if 359 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 1: you If you tell me I can get miles, I 360 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: can tell you exactly where to put it. If you 361 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: tell me I can have a thousand more miles, I'll 362 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: tell you exactly where I want it. They also said 363 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: that we want to be able to see through the 364 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 1: wall because we want to be able to track what's 365 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 1: going on on the other side. And just as importantly, 366 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 1: according to them, and they're their experts, we want the 367 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,360 Speaker 1: people that are contemplating jumping the wall to see us, 368 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 1: because if they see us, they don't do it. Now, 369 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 1: he had a meeting twice. He met twice with the 370 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 1: leader of North Korea. Did you and I think that 371 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 1: was a good idea to meet without advanced preparation about 372 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 1: what would happen? And do you think the policy of 373 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: meeting actually usually works or you should always have advanced 374 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: preparation when you have these summit meetings. There's a lot 375 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: of advanced preparation. There's a lot of advanced preparation, a 376 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: lot of letters back and forth. People at State and 377 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:02,199 Speaker 1: other places have their context there. But I'll applaud the 378 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: President in that he looked back on the last I 379 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 1: don't know, seventy years of trying to deal with the 380 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: North Korean leadership and none of that was working. And 381 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 1: he's the kind of guy I grew to know that 382 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: wanted to um have tried personally. So I'll pick the 383 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 1: phone up and talk to the guy I want to 384 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: meet with him and try to develop a relationship. And 385 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: that's that's who he is. But I think many times 386 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: it was all the other stuff hasn't worked for seventy years, 387 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: But the heck clicks. Let's give it a try. Some 388 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: people would say the president was very reluctant to criticize 389 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:41,120 Speaker 1: Putin for anything, and he seemed overly friendly with him 390 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: compared to other presidents. Do you think that's a fair 391 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: comment and why do you think it was? Well, the explanations. 392 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: It's much like with Kim I mean, he he things 393 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 1: had not been working very well over the last thirty 394 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,959 Speaker 1: five years, and he is you know, he's again He's 395 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: to pick the phone up and talk to the guy 396 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: kind of guy. Was it complicated to have the president's 397 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: family in the government at the time. There is an 398 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: influence that has to be has to be dealt with 399 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 1: and today if you were I don't mean by no means, 400 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: I mean Mrs Trump first, ladies a wonderful person. If 401 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 1: you had to um advise somebody who's going to be 402 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 1: a chief of staff in the future, what would you 403 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:27,719 Speaker 1: say is the best training to be chief of staff 404 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: in the White House? And particularly with President Trump? What 405 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 1: do you think it's the best training? I think one, 406 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: you've got to tell the boss the truth when when 407 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:37,679 Speaker 1: you don't think he's going down the right road, not 408 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: in front of a bunch of people, but you don't 409 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: think he's going down the right road. To tell him 410 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 1: that truth to pop right, someone in the room has 411 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,199 Speaker 1: got to say at the beginning of every conversation and 412 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: at the end, is this good for America? So when 413 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: you tell the president private, I think you should do 414 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: something different than you want to do. Did he like 415 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 1: yell or does he have a discussion on I'd say 416 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 1: more often the naughty said okay, let's bring them back in. So, 417 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: if you had to do it all over again, would 418 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: you have taken the job of chief of staff? Are 419 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 1: you glad you took that job? Well? Again, that I was. 420 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 1: I was drafted into the job. Um, But knowing everything 421 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: you don't know, yes, Um, as hard as it was 422 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: for I feel very strongly for eighteen I don't know 423 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 1: what's happened since. But for eighteen months President Donald J. 424 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: Trump on every issue was well staffed, It was well informed. Ah, 425 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: we gave him options. Well, I'll just leave a coat. 426 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: As you look back on your career, what would you 427 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: say you're most proud of having achieved? And did your 428 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: parents live to see you become a general? My dad did? Um? 429 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: The thing I well and is many things, I would say, 430 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: The thing what did I achieved. I for over forty years, 431 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: I served and served the nation in peace and war. Um, 432 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: it goes with us saying I'm most proud of my 433 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: family and my kids. But for over forty nearly forty 434 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 1: five years, serve the nation in piece of war, served 435 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: and honorably with integrity. So do you consider yourself retired 436 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 1: or are you going to be active in the business world. 437 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: I don't know how to retire, So what are you 438 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: plan to spend most of them? No idea what I'm 439 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: gonna do, But I don't know how to retire. If 440 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: you consider the highest calling of mankind private equity, I'm 441 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 1: not sure about that. Not sure about that, David. That 442 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,719 Speaker 1: was former White House Chief of Staff General John Kelly