1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:02,320 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet has been nominated 2 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:05,559 Speaker 1: for a Shorty Award for Disinformed, our mini series on disinformation, 3 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: and it would mean so much to me if you 4 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:09,399 Speaker 1: would take a moment and vote for us. It only 5 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: takes a moment and you can vote every day. Go 6 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: to tangoti dot com slash vote. That's t a n 7 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: G O t i dot com slash vote to vote, 8 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: or check the link in our show description. You're listening 9 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: to Disinformed, a mini series from There Are No Girls 10 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. Okay, So a secret 11 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: shame of mine is that I make a tech podcast, 12 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,279 Speaker 1: but I haven't really taken on public personal stance on 13 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 1: one of the biggest tech policies of our time. Section 14 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: to thirty, a piece of legislation passed in which basically 15 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: says that Internet platforms can be sued or held liable 16 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 1: for content that people post on those platforms. One reason 17 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:54,279 Speaker 1: is that it's a complex issue that requires a bit 18 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: of nuance and complexity to even discuss. You know who 19 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: isn't exactly the poster child for under in a nuance 20 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: and complexity, Donald Trump. Currently, social media giants like Twitter 21 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: receive an unprecedented liability shield based on the theory that 22 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: they're a neutral platform. My executive order calls for new 23 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: regulations under section two thirty of the Communications Decency Act. 24 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: When he repeatedly called for ending Section to thirty, it 25 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: kind of through a polarizing ranch into the existing debate, 26 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: turning the whole thing into a partisan talking point rather 27 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: than a real conversation. There's a diversity of thought about 28 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:36,479 Speaker 1: Section to thirty. Last season, we spoke to Attorney Carried 29 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: Goldberg who advocated for changes to section to thirty. Here's 30 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 1: a clip, but they're saying that basically, the Internet as 31 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 1: we know it when it exists without section two three 32 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: and we're going to lose you know, all the this 33 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: wonderful free exchange of ideas if we if we lose 34 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: section to three. And I helped total bs on that, 35 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: because number one, you're assuming that the Internet as we 36 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: know it is a great place and as we know 37 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: it like should be preserved. You know, it's kind of 38 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: like any constitutional argument or or make America great again. 39 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: You're assuming that it is the things are great and 40 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 1: that everyone has the same level of free speech. But 41 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: I mean speech on the Internet really belongs to those 42 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:29,359 Speaker 1: who are the loudest, and basically for companies Amazon, Facebook, 43 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: Microsoft and Apple. I mean they control the Internet and 44 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: we've got all our issues with anti trust and also 45 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: the quantity. So the most hostile people on the Internet 46 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: are the ones who have the greatest protections. But digital 47 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: rights groups like Fight for the Future say overbroad changes 48 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:51,639 Speaker 1: to Section two thirty will further harm marginalized communities online. 49 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: Evan Greer has been fighting for digital rights online for 50 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: almost a decade. The name is Evan Greer, and I'm 51 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: a director of Fight for the Future, which is a 52 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: nonprofit that works to protect people's basic rights in the 53 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: digital age. Evan is also a musician and a lot 54 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: of her music criticises big tech. Here's a taste. Once 55 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: consent was manufactured, Now it's prsted for clerks, algorithms make decisions. 56 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: I took a bit of a roundabout path to this work. Actually, 57 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: I dropped out of college and became a full time 58 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: touring musician for about a decade um and traveled around 59 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: making a living playing poppy, queer, political punk and folk 60 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: music for a living. I started touring, playing about two 61 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: hundred to three hundred shows a year and offering workshops 62 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: and trainings on a wide range of social justice, environmental justice, 63 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: and economic justice issues, primarily for college students, but I'll 64 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: so for labor unions and nonprofits and high school students 65 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: and youth detention centers and you know kind of all 66 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: different types of spaces UM. And you know it really 67 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: through the course of that work, it was kind of 68 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:17,359 Speaker 1: it was the early two thousands, the Internet was exploding. UM. 69 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: You know, I I had more fans on my Space 70 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: then than I have like Twitter followers now, which is 71 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: kind of hilarious. UM. But it was also you know, 72 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: this was like pre napster um, you know, and there 73 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:33,919 Speaker 1: was a lot of musicians kind of coming out of 74 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: the underground, UM folks who were queer folks who were 75 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: UM playing you know, music that was way outside the 76 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 1: mainstream or who you know, you know, we're kind of 77 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: marginalized identities, marginalized musicians, and we were seeing the Internet 78 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: is this like incredible um engine and platform for giving 79 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 1: us a voice UM and kind of you know, taking 80 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 1: on some of these gate key birds that had always 81 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 1: UM sort of controlled what was cool or what music 82 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 1: got to be heard. And so you know, there were 83 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: so many of us that were like putting our music 84 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: up for free on archive dot org and then having 85 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 1: people send us donations, like again before Napster, before Spotify, 86 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: before any of this stuff, um. And so for me 87 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: that was like the wake up where I was like, Wow, 88 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 1: this technology is really powerful and it you know, has 89 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: this you know. I I distinctly remember like one specific 90 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 1: moment of my first tour of Europe showing up at 91 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: like a record store in Prague in the Czech Republic 92 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: and there was like a hundred nineteen year old punk 93 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,359 Speaker 1: kids that knew all the words to all of my 94 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: songs and like I had never toured there. I didn't 95 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,280 Speaker 1: have a record label, I didn't have a publicist, and 96 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: it just it struck me. I was like, this is 97 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 1: all because of the Internet. Like these kids have all 98 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: downloaded this music, they've shared it, they've created a community 99 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 1: of like wanting to hear this type of stuff. Um. 100 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: And that was like, you know, just a really powerful 101 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: moment for me. And so when you know, I wish 102 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: I had some really cool end to that story, like 103 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: or whatever, but really the end of it is then 104 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: I had a kid, and I maxed out a couple 105 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 1: of credit cards trying to make a living, you know, 106 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 1: supporting a family as a transgender, anti capitalist folk singer, 107 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 1: and then I realized I might need a quote unquote 108 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: real job. This would turn out to be an opportune 109 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:26,919 Speaker 1: time for Evan to be further pulled into the world 110 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,599 Speaker 1: of digital rights activism. Today, Google's main page shows a 111 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 1: black rectangle and the words tell Congress, please don't censor 112 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 1: the web. Wikipedia has shut down the English language version 113 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 1: of its online encyclopedia for the day. A chorus of 114 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 1: opposition was growing against legislation called the Stop Online Privacy 115 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: Act or SOPA. Legislation ostensibly meant to crack down on 116 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: the piracy of copyrighted content online, but was widely criticized 117 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: for the chilling impact it would have on free expression online. 118 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: Huge Internet companies like Reddit, Wikipedia, and Mozilla protested the 119 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 1: legislation by taking their websites offline for twenty four hours 120 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: about a year after the organization had formed. A year 121 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: after the SOPA strike, um you know, the Internet blackout 122 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: as it was often called at the time, which was 123 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: the largest online protest and human history where um you know, 124 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: I wasn't even at the organization then, but fight for 125 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: the future and many other groups basically mobilized hundreds of 126 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: thousands of organizations and websites to black out their online presences, 127 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: and we drove more than eight million phone calls to 128 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: Congress in a single day to defeat UM copyright legislation 129 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: that could have led to widespread Internet censorship. So I 130 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: kind of came into the organization in the aftermath of that. 131 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: For Evan, it was always music that illustrated the power 132 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: of the Internet and its ability to connect people, and 133 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: that's what drives her fight to protect it. Just quickly started, um, 134 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: you know, kind of seeing the parallels between the work 135 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: that I had done as an artist, where I was 136 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: trying to use a song or um, you know, little 137 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: you know, introduction to a song to connect with people 138 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: and move them on an emotional level, to try to 139 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: move them toward action of some type or another. Maybe 140 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: that was just throwing some money in the hat for 141 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: the benefit, or maybe it was you know, signing a 142 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: petition or writing a letter to a political prisoner or 143 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: whatever it was. But now with quite for the future, 144 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: seeing well, I'm doing kind of the same thing. I'm 145 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: not necessarily throwing out a song, although I still do 146 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: write and record music, and I've got a new album 147 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: coming out. The next single comes out next week. But um, 148 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: you know, we're also sort of painting and coloring with 149 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: with websites and with action tools and with videos and 150 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: with infographics. Um. But instead of reaching you know, dozens 151 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 1: or hundreds or you know, for me, on a very 152 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:45,719 Speaker 1: very good night, maybe a couple of thousand people, Um, 153 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 1: we're able to reach hundreds of thousands, millions, sometimes even 154 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: tens of millions of people and move them to take action. 155 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: And again it's that same feeling that I had at 156 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:01,319 Speaker 1: that show in Prague of just recognizing the Internet has 157 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: changed the rules for what isn't isn't possible within our 158 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: political system, you know, in some ways that are really terrible, 159 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: and I think we're starting to grapple with the reality 160 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,319 Speaker 1: of that, but also in ways that are really profoundly 161 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: transformative and democratizing. And the way that you know, Fight 162 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: for the Future's goal is to ensure that technology and 163 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 1: the Internet specifically are largely a force for empowerment and 164 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: liberation rather than a force for exploitation and oppression. Um. 165 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:32,959 Speaker 1: So that's kind of my roundabout story of like how 166 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: I came to this work and also why it matters 167 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: to me. I have to tell you that feeling that 168 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 1: you've described of the Internet being the source of uniting 169 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:45,719 Speaker 1: people and connecting people across continents, across the globe, that 170 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: was exactly the same thing that got me so excited 171 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: about the Internet when I first got my clunky dial 172 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: up computer and was definitely putting hell of viruses on 173 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: it by trying to download the music off of Napster. Uh. 174 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: That was Yeah, that was such a transport. Like you know, 175 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: I grew up in a small town, so that was 176 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: such a transformative thing for me, and is why I'm 177 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: so interested in the Internet now. And I love how 178 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: you've described this overlap. And I noticed in your music 179 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: there is quite an overlap between your stances, but as 180 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: it pertains to tech and big tech and the music 181 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: that you make. I was listening to your song before 182 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: we got on the call, Emma Goldman would have beat 183 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: your ass. And on the on the vand camp site 184 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,959 Speaker 1: you tell you describe the story behind that name. Can 185 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, so 186 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: it's funny. I um, it's interesting. For this album, I've 187 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: ended up doing a few kind of historical deep Dives. 188 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: The song I have coming out next week is is 189 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: sort of a transliberation anthem, and I made a music 190 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: video for it that features like archival footage of Sylvia 191 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 1: Rivera and Marcia P. Johnson and the work that they 192 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: did in the aftermath of Stonewall, but also going back 193 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: even further to like the Competence Cafeteria riot, and like, 194 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: I think of myself as someone who like, you know, 195 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 1: kind of knows my radical history or whatever, and every 196 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: time I like really sink my teeth into this stuff, 197 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 1: I'm just so struck by, like how much of our 198 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: history is kind of stolen or hidden from us. Um 199 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: and And so this was an example that I wrote 200 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: this whole song based on like an anecdote about Emma 201 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: Goldman that I, you know, I don't know, like had 202 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 1: heard or maybe read somewhere. And then when I find 203 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: and like I I wrote up the whole song, and I, like, 204 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: you know, it was writing the introduction for it was 205 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: like I gotta go find a source for that, and 206 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: then I found out that it like wasn't entirely true basically, 207 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: but the story that I had heard was that like 208 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: she had like literally bull whipped her like ex boyfriend 209 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: because he was like trash talking um Alexander Berkman after 210 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: he had attempted to assassinate Henry Frick, who was like, 211 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: you know, one of these Robert Baron hyper capitalists, you 212 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: know types, UM, and you know, it was sort of 213 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: this like moment of division within the left in the 214 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: United States during that era. It turns out that it 215 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: was it was and quite her ex boyfriend. It was 216 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 1: like a mentor type guy. And yeah, he had condemned 217 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: Alexander Frick and she like basically like hit him with 218 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: like a toy whip of some sort, which like to 219 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 1: which I was like, how is there a toy whip? 220 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: That's just this seems weird. I don't know if that's 221 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 1: really a toy. This is all very problematic. But yeah, 222 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: and then apparently she like expressed regret about it later 223 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:25,959 Speaker 1: in her life or whatever. But but I don't know, 224 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: I just felt like there was something powerful for me 225 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: about that kind of like um expression of um, a 226 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 1: woman's rage um, and and specifically toward kind of a UM, 227 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: you know, someone who was seen as like a mentor, 228 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: like a respected um man in the community and just 229 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: kind of like not taking any bullshit and like literally 230 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: getting up there and like whacking him in front of 231 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: a crowd. UM. And so you know, I just feel 232 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: like I aspire to to be that direct um in 233 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: my uh you know, activism, et cetera. And you know 234 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: Emma Goldman, um, you know, like every figure throughout history, UM, 235 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: you know had had many nuances and and um you know, 236 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 1: but I she's definitely someone who has been UM an 237 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: inspiration to me and many others. It's pretty punk rock, 238 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: I have to say, right, I mean, come on, it's 239 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: punk punk af the different kinds of campaigns that Fight 240 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: for the Future takes up. One of them really surprised me, 241 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: this campaign to ban facial recognition at festivals like music festivals, 242 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: and I had no idea what was going on. I 243 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 1: used to work for a music festival called Afropunk, and 244 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: I thought, God, there are spirst of all a. There's 245 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: so much overlap between digital rights and music and arts communities. 246 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: And then also there are so many ways that like 247 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: surveillance is playing out in these ways that we might 248 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: not even know, we might not even be aware that 249 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: we were being surveilled in these ways. Yeah. Absolutely, And 250 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: I mean the good news that I can say is 251 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 1: that that campaign that you just mentioned, UM, that we 252 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: ran with Tom Morello, the guitar Surrey against the Machine 253 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 1: and a bunch of other prominent musicians was hugely successful, 254 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: and we actually got more than forty of the world's 255 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: largest music festivals to say that they won't use facial 256 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: recognition surveillance at their events. UM. And you know, for 257 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: folks who maybe you know, I'm sure folks are increasingly 258 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: aware of facial recognition and the problems with it. But 259 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: you know, for me, that's hugely significant because a lot 260 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: of the conversation about facial recognition has centered on government 261 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: and law enforcement use of this technology, which makes a 262 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: lot of sense because it's being used right now by 263 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 1: police and law enforcement agencies predominantly targeting communities of color, 264 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: predominantly targeting black folks. UM. And the technology itself is racist. 265 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: It has racial bias baked into the current algorithms, and 266 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: it's automating, automating, and exacerbating these existing systems that are 267 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: also already racist. So when you take, uh, you know, 268 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: a system of policing that you know, um measurably has 269 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: disproportionately harmed black and brown communities for centuries, and then 270 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: you layer on top of that a technology that essentially 271 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: just speeds up and automates those same discriminatory processes that 272 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: were already happening. You just get supercharged discrimination and supercharge 273 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: state violence toward a community that's already uh, disproportionately affected 274 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: by it. And so it makes again makes perfect sense 275 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: that the conversation has kind of started there with government use, 276 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: but all of those same things are true with corporate 277 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: and private use as well. They're enormously discriminatory things that 278 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: private companies can do with a technology like facial recognition. Um. 279 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: And so music festivals, I think we're a really good 280 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: example because it's so public and visible, um and all 281 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: kinds of people like to go to music festivals, right, 282 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: and so I think it does. It was one really 283 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: good way not just to kind of, um, get these 284 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: policies in place to protect individual music listeners that want 285 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: to go to a festival without having their biometric information 286 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: collected by a private corporation, but it's also sort of 287 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: a way of educating people, right, Like getting prominent musicians 288 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: talking about this helped put facial recognition on the map 289 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: as a dangerous, toxic technology that no one likes, and 290 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: that's building momentum for what we really need in the end, 291 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 1: which from our perspective at Fight for the Future is 292 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: something closer to abolition than reform. We think that this 293 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: is a technology that um is fundamentally unjust and that 294 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: poses such a profound threat to the future of human 295 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: civilization and liberty um that it can't be effectively regulated. 296 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: It really does need to be banned outright for both 297 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: government and the vast majority of private uses as well. 298 00:16:49,200 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break that are back like for 299 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: the Future advocates for big stances like the outright banning 300 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: of facial recognition technology because that's what their members want. 301 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: They don't want incremental, bit by bit changes to harmful 302 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 1: tech policies. Rather they get behind big swing for the fences, 303 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: bold actions. I'm always struck by that. You know, there's 304 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: that notion in Washington, d C. That like, oh, what 305 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: people really want is like compromise and like, you know, 306 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,199 Speaker 1: watered down things, and that's just so bogus, and like 307 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 1: we see it again and again in politics that you know, 308 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 1: know what people want is like real fundamental change UM. 309 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: And you know what we've seen is that you know, 310 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: people are actually much more um resonate, much more with 311 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: the idea of this technology is harmful, let's ban it 312 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 1: than they do with you know what we what we 313 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: really need as an opt in, consent based regulatory framework 314 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: that like allows corporations to continue selling the stuff and 315 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: profiting UM, but put some rules to the road in place. 316 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: Note like that is not you know, A, that's an 317 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: incorrect UM policy that won't actually protect the most vulnerable 318 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: people from the harms of this technology, but B it's 319 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: just not a good rallying cry either, right, And so 320 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:15,919 Speaker 1: for us it's always you know, it's both about leading 321 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 1: with what we think is right and always fighting for 322 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 1: the biggest possible, you know, are we kind of frame 323 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: it as like just this side have been possible, right, 324 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: Like we always try to aim our sites as high 325 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: as we can go, and we're a very small organization, 326 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: so we have to like ruthlessly prioritize like is this 327 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 1: really one of the things to go all in on 328 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:35,880 Speaker 1: and fight for or is this one of the ones 329 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: we have to just let go and hope somebody else, 330 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: you know, picks it up and fights for it. Um. 331 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:43,880 Speaker 1: But when we decide to go in on something that's 332 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: at the top of our minds is basically a is 333 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: this a huge you know, is this a win that 334 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: if we win, will fundamentally change things and and concretely 335 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: benefit large numbers of people. I first met Evan when 336 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 1: she was leading a coalition call of of dozens of 337 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: progressive activists and digital rights groups about Section to thirty 338 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 1: in response to the Safe Tech Act, legislation sponsored by 339 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: Senators Mark Warner, Mazie Herrono, and Amy kolbachar to make 340 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: changes to Section to thirty. The last time Section to 341 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: thirty was changed was back in to Stop Enabling Sex 342 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 1: Traffickers Act or SESTA, got bipartisan support in the House 343 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: and the Senate, and was signed by Trump. SESTA becoming 344 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: law meant that platforms would be held responsible for knowingly 345 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: facilitating or supporting sex trafficking. Now this might sound like 346 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 1: a good thing, but it actually ended up causing a 347 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 1: lot of harm to people involved in sex work consensually 348 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: who were not being trafficked well. Meeting celebrities endorsed the 349 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: legislation in a p s A, call your congress person 350 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: or senator and say what the asked them to amend 351 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 1: Section to thirty and then call them again until they 352 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 1: do something. Please call yours? Will you call yours? But 353 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,120 Speaker 1: this is why people like Evans say it's so important 354 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: to have a thoughtful debate and conversation about Internet regulation. 355 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: Most people agree that something needs to be done, but 356 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: if you do something just to say you're taking action, 357 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: you could end up inadvertently causing more harm. And we 358 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,880 Speaker 1: know the people most likely to be harmed are those 359 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: who are already marginalized. Full disclosure. As someone who makes 360 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: a podcast about the Internet, people often ask me about 361 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 1: my position on Section to thirty, and I am kind 362 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: of ashamed to admit that. I said, like, oh, I 363 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: don't really know. You know, I'm glad, I'm glad that 364 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: smart people are having the conversation. You know, we last 365 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: season we spoke to Attorney Carried Goldberg, who was very 366 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 1: much in favor of changing Section to thirty. And you 367 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 1: and I were on a call, the coalition call about 368 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: Section thirty, which was fascinating and I feel like I 369 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 1: learned so much. But the thing that really struck me 370 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: was even though we were on this coalition call with 371 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: like um civil rights groups and justice groups and social 372 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: change groups, it was clear to me that there was 373 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: not consensus on the call of where folks stand. So 374 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: I guess I want, I wanna, I wanna ground our 375 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: converse station in that um. But then my question is 376 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: sort of where do you and fight for the Future 377 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,199 Speaker 1: stand on Section to thirty? And you know what, like 378 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 1: what is your position on this legislation? I think the 379 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 1: way that you framed it there is really important because 380 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 1: I think one thing that's happened is Trump just to 381 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: put it bluntly, right, like Trump started tweeting things like 382 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 1: repeal Section to thirty and and then you know, and frankly, 383 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 1: you know, Joe Biden has also called to revoke section too, 384 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 1: and so part of what has happened is something that's 385 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: actually a very complex um policy debate and conversation has 386 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 1: now been sort of thrust into the like CNN, MSNBC, 387 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: Fox News like level of debate. It is a tiny 388 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:48,479 Speaker 1: law that's had a huge impact on the internet, as 389 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: we know, it's section and anytime that happens, just like 390 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: the the thoughtfulness of the conversation, you know, there's like 391 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,479 Speaker 1: a you could draw a graph right of like how 392 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,200 Speaker 1: much how much attention is this getting on cabled TV 393 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 1: to like how intelligent of a conversation are we having 394 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: about it? And it's like a you know, I'm not 395 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,479 Speaker 1: good at math, but they're like no, right, UM. And 396 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 1: so I think but that said, you know, I think 397 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: within UM social justice and civil rights and human rights 398 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: spaces UM, there is a more thoughtful conversation happening in 399 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: the sense that I think there is. You know, there's 400 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: maybe broad disagreement around exactly what should be done, but 401 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 1: there's increasing agreement about the harms. Right, Like all of 402 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: us on you know, the call that you reference agree 403 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: like big tech is a problem. Their business model is 404 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: fundamentally incompatible with basic human rights and democracy. They're exacerbating 405 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 1: existing disparities in our society. They are amplifying harmful ideologies 406 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:01,360 Speaker 1: like white supremacy UM that have long to stronghold UM 407 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,239 Speaker 1: in the United States and around the world UM, and 408 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: within our political institutions and economic institutions. UM. You know. 409 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: So like everyone sort of agrees on the problems, and 410 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: and I think we're now trying to figure out, well, 411 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: what are the solutions. And I think it's healthy that 412 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: there's disagreement or ongoing discussion about trying to figure out 413 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: what the solutions are. Right. And so like, there's tons 414 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 1: of groups that I work with every day on issues 415 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: like surveillance or issues like privacy. And maybe we don't 416 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: totally agree on Section two thirty, UM, but like we 417 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: all know, we're like trying to get to the same place, right, 418 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: And like, I think it's healthy that we can have 419 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: these these conversations. And UM. That said, I think it's 420 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: also really important that, UM we push for a more 421 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: thoughtful conversation. UM. And for myself, UM, you know, one 422 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: of the things I've been really specifically trying to do 423 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 1: is er nonprofits and progressive groups to listen to sex workers. UM. 424 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: This has been kind of my mantra UM in this 425 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 1: section to thirty conversation because really, when we talk about 426 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 1: what would it look like to change Section to thirty, 427 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: we only have one concrete example, which is Sesta Fosta, 428 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: the last major piece of legislation that created a carve 429 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 1: out in section to thirty that lawmakers claimed was intended 430 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: to address sex trafficking. UM. And what we know is 431 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: that in fact it didn't actually do anything to address 432 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 1: actual sex trafficking. But it was devastating for UM sex workers, 433 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 1: UM and for their safety. UM. And it ended up 434 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: leading Internet platforms to shut down entire subsections of websites, 435 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 1: shut down places where, um, sex workers were able to 436 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: kind of set their own rules, set their own terms, 437 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 1: and have more autonomy. Um. And that there's actual studies 438 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 1: that show that that led to actual loss of life. Right. 439 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: And so sex workers safety and advocacy organizations have been 440 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,239 Speaker 1: sounding the alarm about this since before Sesta Fasta, and 441 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 1: for where I'm sitting, it does frustrate me, um that 442 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 1: I feel like, Um, you know, there are progressive groups 443 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 1: who are just kind of you know, looking to beat 444 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: up on the tech companies, which I'm all for, Like, 445 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 1: let's beat up with the tech companies. I am with you. 446 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: I am in the front row with a pitchfork. Um. 447 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:34,479 Speaker 1: But um, in doing so trampling or ignoring the voices of, 448 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: you know, a community that has already been disproportionately harmed 449 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: by uncareful UM policy change. Right. Um, So that's kind 450 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 1: of a broader framing. But I didn't actually answer your question, 451 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,120 Speaker 1: which is what is our position? So, you know, Fight 452 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: for the Future sees Section to thirty not primarily as 453 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 1: a protection for companies, but actually as an essential law 454 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: that is sent really enables all user generated content on 455 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 1: the Internet. So the speech of ordinary people, right, UM, 456 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,719 Speaker 1: the people who wouldn't be on cable TV or the radio, 457 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: but who are now able to create memes and jokes 458 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: and write blog posts and UM share videos on TikTok 459 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: or wherever um or um you know share photos or 460 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: um be an adult creator or be uh you know, 461 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: storybook creator or whatever it is. Section two thirties the 462 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,479 Speaker 1: law that essentially allows for all of that to take place, 463 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 1: UM by making it so that corporations who care only 464 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 1: about making money, right, and we should always remember that 465 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: are not disincentivized from UM hosting our speech and our 466 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,919 Speaker 1: creativity and our ideas and our opinions. UM. And I 467 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: think it's particularly important for myself as a transperson, and 468 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: I think for anyone who's a creator of a marginalized 469 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:10,159 Speaker 1: identity of any kind to recognize that our creations are thoughts, 470 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 1: are ideas are often unpopular among the general public. Right. 471 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: And so what Section to thirty does is it basically 472 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: allows platforms to host things that might be unpopular and 473 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 1: thus might get them sued. UM. And what happens if 474 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: you radically change or remove or gut section to thirty 475 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,919 Speaker 1: is you put these content moderation decisions, which we know 476 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 1: the platforms are already doing a terrible job at and 477 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,919 Speaker 1: it hands them to not away from the trust and 478 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 1: safety team or whoever is already doing kind of a 479 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: bad job at it, and gives it to the most 480 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: risk averse corporate lawyers in the world who are going 481 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: to do an even worse job at it. These are 482 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: lawyers that do not have a power analysis. They do 483 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 1: not care about the speech of marginalized people. They just 484 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: care about protecting their platform from getting sued. And so 485 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,439 Speaker 1: if that means that they remove wholesale entire categories of 486 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:13,159 Speaker 1: speech or engage in widespread censorship of marginalized people's viewpoints 487 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: and posts and opinions, they will happily do that in 488 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: order to protect themselves from lawsuits. And that's what we 489 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 1: saw with Sesta Fausta. It didn't actually end up coming 490 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 1: down on the companies. They just kind of figured out, 491 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: all right, fine, we'll just shut down. This is not 492 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 1: about defending the companies. I don't particularly care very much about, um, 493 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: you know, the company's profits or uh, you know how 494 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: much money they have to spend on lawsuits. What I 495 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: care about is the impact that that then has on 496 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: marginalized people's speech in particularly social movement and for me, 497 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: Section two thirty is such a crucial law for protecting 498 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: speech like, for example, a video of police violence, which 499 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: in a world without sex and to thirty would almost 500 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: certainly invite lawsuits from law enforcement who would claim that 501 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: it's defamatory or that its incitement right um, like the 502 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: me too movement UM, where you know, people are able 503 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: to speak out about abusive behavior UM, and platforms are 504 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: willing to host that speech because they know UM that 505 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: they're not going to get sued for giving people a 506 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: platform to speak um and speak their truth UM. And 507 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: so I always think about the impact on those movements. 508 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: Fight for the Future sees Section to thirty as one 509 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: of the most important laws protecting free speech and human 510 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: rights in the digital age. And that doesn't mean that 511 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: we don't think it can ever be changed. Right, No 512 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,959 Speaker 1: law is sacrosanct. Laws are just laws, UM. But we 513 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 1: are very concerned that um, you know, rushed or uncareful 514 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: changes to Section two thirty will do far more harm 515 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: than good. And we also think it's largely a distraction 516 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: from the policies that we really need to be fighting for, 517 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 1: like strong federal data privacy legislation that cuts off the 518 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: huge stream of data that these companies are collecting and 519 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: using to manipulate people, like practices like a like banning 520 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: practices like non transparent algorithmic amplification, where Facebook isn't just 521 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: letting white supremacists spout off, they are actively saying, Hey, 522 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: you seem like you might be a white supremacist. Do 523 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: you want to meet these other white supremacists in this 524 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: white supremacy group, um, for the purpose of gaining more 525 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 1: money through advertising, right, um. And so our feeling is 526 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: that there are real policies that are sitting right there 527 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: in front of us, like passing strong federal data privacy legislation, 528 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: like enforcing existing antitrust and civil rights laws, like pushing 529 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: for FTC investigations into specifically harmful business practices again like 530 00:30:54,760 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: algorithmic manipulation like micro targeting, um, etcetera. UM. And we 531 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: could be getting to work getting those done if we 532 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: weren't constantly going around in circles in this kind of 533 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: partisan gridlock debate around Section two thirty and UM, we 534 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 1: could do it in a way that would actually address 535 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: the problem at its root. Um. And then finally I'll 536 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: just say, you know, I think one thing that people 537 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: often miss when thinking about Section two thirty, or one 538 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: thing that's happening a lot is I think lawmakers have 539 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 1: almost got it into their minds that Section two thirty 540 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 1: are taking away. Section two thirty is like the only 541 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: lever that they have to hold big tech companies accountable. 542 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 1: And I hear this a lot um from lawmakers from 543 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: groups that I work with, where they're like, yeah, I 544 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 1: don't think this is really a good solution, but I 545 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: just don't know what else to do, Like someone has 546 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: to do something about these companies, right, And I resonate 547 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: with that, like these harms are real and they're happening 548 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,959 Speaker 1: right now, and they're traumatic, and we do have that 549 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: sense of like we have to do something. Um. But again, 550 00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: I think if there's one thing that we've learned over 551 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: the last number of years around Internet policy, and if 552 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: there's one thing that we should take away from Sesta Fausta, 553 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: it's that we have to do the right thing, not 554 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 1: just something, because if we just do something, it will 555 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: almost always end up coming back to hurt the people 556 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: who are already being hurt. Um. And it won't actually 557 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: hold the companies that we want to hold accountable accountable 558 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: because they have exponentially more resources, they have deep pockets, 559 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 1: they can afford the lawyers, right, And so what we 560 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 1: end up with if we make changes to Section to 561 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 1: thirty that are not thoughtful, is we could actually end 562 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: up solidifying the monopoly power of the largest, most abusive 563 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: players like Facebook and Google. They're the ones that can 564 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: afford the armies of lawyers to deal with lawsuits. And 565 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: we might end up inadvertently crushing any alternative that could 566 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: come along and provide a better service or a better 567 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: model or a better community online, and leave the big 568 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: tech companies as the only ones left standing because they're 569 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: the only ones that can afford to survive in a 570 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: world without Section to thirty. And so for me, you know, 571 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: this isn't sort of like, well, are you for the 572 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: companies or you for uh, you know, holding them accountable? 573 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: For me, this is I'm for the people. I'm for 574 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 1: human rights, and I believe that defending Section two thirty 575 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: and fighting instead for real, meaningful policy changes that will 576 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: actually address the root causes of the harms that we 577 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: see from these surveillance capitalist monopolies. Um, that's what I'm 578 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: fighting for, and that's what Fight for the Future wants 579 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: to see. More. After a quick break, let's get right 580 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 1: back into it. I'm so happy that you started this 581 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: conversation being grounded in talk about sex work. It's kind 582 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: of well to me how often people who are involved 583 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: in sex work are the ones who are really innovating 584 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: online because they have to. Yet they're so marginalized in 585 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: sideline in those same conversations about online policy. They're just 586 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: not really given a voice on conversations that impact them 587 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 1: so directly. Your average sex worker is more of an 588 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,399 Speaker 1: expert on section to thirty than like anyone any pH 589 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 1: d or or academic who like studies this you know, 590 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,799 Speaker 1: content moderation or thinks that they do because they have 591 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: to be right and like people's I think this is 592 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: also about reframing how we think about expertise, right I 593 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 1: you know, I've just been banging my head against the 594 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: wall over the last few months because I just constantly here, 595 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 1: you know, a panel and NPR and they have like 596 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 1: you know, random law professor, a random law professor B 597 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: and like a representative from YouTube or whatever, or like 598 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 1: you know, some former c. I a guy who like 599 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 1: studies disinformation when they're not busy spreading it about Latin 600 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: American governments or whatever, and like that's the panel, and 601 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,319 Speaker 1: you know, and they're framed as experts and the reality is, 602 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:05,280 Speaker 1: you know, they're the people who are experts in online 603 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: harms and and online and tech policy. Are people who 604 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: have lived experience with what these policies actually do when 605 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: they go into effect. And I think, you know, if 606 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: there is one thing, you know, like if I could 607 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 1: just snap my fingers and make anything happen, it would 608 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: be to force like every progressive nonprofit based in d 609 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 1: C and every lawmaker to like sit in a captive 610 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: audience and just listen UM for a couple of hours. 611 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: Two groups like the Sex Workers Outreach Project UM or 612 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 1: Swap behind Bars or Reframe Health and Justice UM or 613 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: the wood Whole Freedom Foundation who are UM leading the 614 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 1: lawsuit against SESTA fasta UM and actually listen and listen 615 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: to UM how these policies play out. Because it feels like, 616 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: you know, often a lot of the conversations around Section 617 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 1: two thirty are sort of framed as like, here's a 618 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 1: bunch of terrible things that have happened and and and 619 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,879 Speaker 1: everyone's like, yeah, those things are all terrible. And then 620 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 1: it's like and that's why we need to change section 621 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:11,280 Speaker 1: to thirty. And that's where the disconnect is, because again, 622 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: no one disagrees that there are real harms that are 623 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: springing from these platforms behavior, from their business models, UM, 624 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: from the status quot um. You know, I am so 625 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,920 Speaker 1: far from someone who thinks the Internet is fine, just 626 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 1: leave it alone. UM. You know, we need real policy, 627 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 1: and we need to act quickly, and we need um 628 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,839 Speaker 1: to fight for meaningful change. UM. But again, I think 629 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: that that mentality of like, UM, well let's just do 630 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: something so we can say we did, I think it 631 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 1: is actually profoundly immoral because UM, at that point, again, 632 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 1: you're not recognizing that just doing something quote unquote can 633 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: actually end up doing really profound harm. And if you're 634 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 1: not listening to folks who are truly marginalized, who are 635 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,720 Speaker 1: actually have lived experience with being on the wrong side 636 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,799 Speaker 1: of content moderation, with being on the wrong side of 637 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: platform power, UM, then you're you're not actually fighting for 638 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,719 Speaker 1: UM policies that protect the most vulnerable, and we're kind 639 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: of just recreating a lot of the same mistakes that 640 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 1: we've made in the past. Again, I think, you know, 641 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 1: for myself, I think often about the mainstream gay rights 642 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: movement UM that you know, systematically for decades de prioritized 643 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 1: its most vulnerable members UM, including sex workers and transfolks 644 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: UM and basically anyone who was not assists, white man 645 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 1: looking to get married or joined the military. UM. And 646 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 1: I think now our mainstream organizations are recognizing those mistakes 647 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 1: and starting to reckon with them and really genuinely are, 648 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,279 Speaker 1: at least on a policy level, starting to fight more 649 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 1: for policies that benefit UM, you know, trans folks, or 650 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 1: at least fight against UM this surge in discriminatory legislation, etcetera. UM. 651 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,319 Speaker 1: But then I see other movements where we're making same 652 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: mistake UM. And so for me, I always try to 653 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 1: base my activism not in what some academics says, not 654 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,839 Speaker 1: in what's popular in Washington, d C. Or what's hot 655 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:14,920 Speaker 1: button on TV, but in the lived experience of people 656 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:20,360 Speaker 1: who have UM real experience with with how these policies 657 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,879 Speaker 1: actually play out on the ground. As someone who lives 658 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: in d C and has worked for many an organization 659 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,799 Speaker 1: where I wonder, you know, who are we actually centering here, 660 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,279 Speaker 1: I think in my personal activism, I always try to 661 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,279 Speaker 1: think about the folks who are actually the most marginalized 662 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 1: or the most oppressed, because if we're able to center 663 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: them and lift them up, we will all benefit. We 664 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,919 Speaker 1: will all benefit. When the people who are directly impacted 665 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 1: and most marginalized are amplified, supported and lifted up, we 666 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:50,280 Speaker 1: will all impact. It fundamentally changes how you think about 667 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 1: these things. And I guess for me again, I just 668 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 1: wish that more folks were thinking about this through the 669 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,839 Speaker 1: lens of like what actually fixes this problem versus like, 670 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 1: you know, how can we score some points against the companies? Right? 671 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 1: Like I want to score points against the companies as 672 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,879 Speaker 1: much as anybody else. These companies are UM doing harm. 673 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: They're evil, they are um, you know, profiting off of 674 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 1: a business model that again is really incompatible with UM 675 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,360 Speaker 1: so many of the things that we hold dear um. 676 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,520 Speaker 1: But like, I don't want to just dunk on them. 677 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:24,880 Speaker 1: I want to like actually do something about their power 678 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 1: and take it away from them and put it back 679 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 1: in the hands of of everyone, right and and reclaim 680 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 1: the internet as the technology that we talked about at 681 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,720 Speaker 1: the beginning that like you and I both have felt 682 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:40,319 Speaker 1: the power of and that is giving us this opportunity 683 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 1: to have this conversation right now and to let people 684 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,239 Speaker 1: listen to it UM. And I just want to make 685 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 1: sure that we um, you know, as we're looking to 686 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:54,359 Speaker 1: address harms, we also recognize UM the ways in which 687 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:58,919 Speaker 1: this technology has profoundly liberatory potential. And I think it's 688 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 1: also part of that is also about looking at the 689 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: status quo. Right. If we think about the world before 690 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 1: the Internet, right, there was still disinformation. It was just 691 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 1: on cable TV. Look at crime reporting in the nineties, right, 692 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 1: which was so blatantly overtly anti black and racist. Right, 693 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 1: it was all about constantly hyping up crime in cities 694 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 1: to play on people's fears, specifically white people's fears, to 695 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:29,759 Speaker 1: push racist policies. Right now we see that democratized in 696 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:33,040 Speaker 1: a way on with kind of you know, things like 697 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 1: next door and Facebook, etcetera. And it's still a problem, 698 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,760 Speaker 1: but it's not a new problem, right, It's a problem 699 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,840 Speaker 1: that has shifted mediums and UM shifted forms. But I 700 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,160 Speaker 1: think there's something about the the the instinct to blame 701 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 1: technology that has rooted in a collective unwillingness to acknowledge 702 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 1: that these hateful, harmful, bigoted ideologies and movements have been 703 00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,879 Speaker 1: part of this country since its inception, and I think 704 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 1: there is sort of a you know, it's almost like 705 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:08,880 Speaker 1: a collective amnesia around that that kind of pushes us 706 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 1: to be like, oh, this is a new problem created 707 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,319 Speaker 1: by the Internet, and it's like, no, this is an 708 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,360 Speaker 1: old problem that's being reflected back to us by the internet. UM. 709 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,440 Speaker 1: And instead of blaming the Internet, we need to actually 710 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,520 Speaker 1: hold ourselves accountable UM and work for the structural change 711 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 1: that we need. Structural change to our social safety net 712 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,359 Speaker 1: could actually be one potential solution to the spread of disinformation. 713 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 1: We already know that people turn to lies and conspiracy 714 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 1: theories and distortions when they're scared or anxious. If more 715 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 1: people's basic human needs were taken care of, fear could 716 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,839 Speaker 1: drive less of our discourse and policy. I would argue that, like, 717 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 1: you know, policies like universal health care UM and UM, 718 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,440 Speaker 1: you know, ensuring that everyone has adequate housing and food 719 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 1: and access to education and basic survival would do a 720 00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: lot more to address things like viral disinformation than anything 721 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 1: you do you could do to Section to thirty or 722 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,440 Speaker 1: even anything else with tech policy. Because these are problems 723 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:10,160 Speaker 1: that are UM springing out of broad structural issues and 724 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 1: then kind of being exacerbated or amplified by technology. They're 725 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,440 Speaker 1: not being created by it. And I think that's actually 726 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:20,400 Speaker 1: really important and something that UM is uncomfortable to grapple 727 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: with because it also sort of means like there isn't 728 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,319 Speaker 1: some quick fixed silver bullet. It kind of just means 729 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 1: we've got to keep doing the work UM and recognize 730 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:33,120 Speaker 1: that change takes time. And you know, I'm so inspired 731 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,640 Speaker 1: by those who come before us, who were you know, 732 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 1: many of whom died before they actually saw the the 733 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:44,839 Speaker 1: results of their organizing UM and UM. You know, for me, 734 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,120 Speaker 1: it's it's about recognizing that every day that something there's 735 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:53,720 Speaker 1: something integral about protecting the transformative power of this technology 736 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,799 Speaker 1: in the hopes that UM in future generations we will 737 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,960 Speaker 1: look back and say, I'm glad that FOAK spot to 738 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 1: make sure that we have this tool and that it's 739 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:08,400 Speaker 1: and that it's available to UM marginalized communities to organize 740 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:11,520 Speaker 1: and fight for our liberation UM, and that we fought 741 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,799 Speaker 1: back against the worst uses of technology like facial recognition 742 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 1: or like automated license plate readers or other forms of 743 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,839 Speaker 1: harmful surveillance, because I do think this debate, or this 744 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,960 Speaker 1: fight over whether technology will largely be a force for 745 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,360 Speaker 1: good or continue down this path of being a force 746 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,759 Speaker 1: for exploitation and greed and corruption UM, is going to 747 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,720 Speaker 1: determine not just the future of technology, but the future 748 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,640 Speaker 1: of humanity. UM. And so for me, that kind of 749 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:40,560 Speaker 1: gets me out of bed every day and keeps me 750 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: up every night. UM. But that's why I think it's 751 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,880 Speaker 1: worth fighting for. Today's episode featured music from Evan Greer's 752 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,960 Speaker 1: new album, Spotify a Surveillance. Check it out at the 753 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:58,600 Speaker 1: band camp link in the show description. If you've enjoyed 754 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:05,640 Speaker 1: this podcast, please help us grow by subscribing. Got a 755 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:07,719 Speaker 1: story about an interesting thing in tech, or just want 756 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:09,520 Speaker 1: to say hi. We'd love to hear from you at 757 00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,680 Speaker 1: Hello at tango dot com. Disinformed is brought to you 758 00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:14,560 Speaker 1: by There Are No Girls on the Internet. It's a 759 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:18,040 Speaker 1: production of iHeart Radio and Unbossed. Creative Jonathan Strickland is 760 00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:21,920 Speaker 1: our executive producer. Tory Harrison is our supervising producer, and engineer. 761 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,759 Speaker 1: Michael Lamato is our contributing producer. I'm your host Bridget Tod. 762 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:28,600 Speaker 1: For more great podcasts, check out the iHeart Radio app, 763 00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:30,759 Speaker 1: Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.