Speaker 1: Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shondaland Audio in
Speaker 1: partnership with iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Parents will often say to me, out of the incredibly
Speaker 2: great intentions, I just don't mention this and that they're
Speaker 2: going to have to get Usually it's shots, right, number
Speaker 2: one question?
Speaker 1: Child?
Speaker 3: Do I have to get a shot?
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, he asked me. Last night. My son was
Speaker 1: up last night with an earache. I think he slept.
Speaker 1: He's got one big floppy year and I think he
Speaker 1: slept on it like folded. He's like, I have an
Speaker 1: ear infection. I was like, well, if you wake up
Speaker 1: and there's inner ear pain, we'll definitely have to get
Speaker 1: that checked down. He's like, oh, I have to get
Speaker 1: a shot. I was like, no, they will have to
Speaker 1: just look in your ear. But yeah. So most people's mode,
Speaker 1: which is mine too, is we're just not going to
Speaker 1: mention the shot until we get there. Hello, everybody, Welcome
Speaker 1: back to Katie's Crib. Every MoMA out here listening knows
Speaker 1: how shitty it is to take your kid to the
Speaker 1: pediatrician and give them shots. I don't know. It's so traumatizing,
Speaker 1: and I find it to be rare that there's like
Speaker 1: a few mom friends I have whose kids are not
Speaker 1: affected by it, and this woman who we have on
Speaker 1: as a guest today. It's not only about helping kids
Speaker 1: get through just the yearly shots and vaccinations. This amazing
Speaker 1: doctor Jody Thomas is dealing in this whole arena that
Speaker 1: I didn't even know existed. It's about helping kids with
Speaker 1: medical anxiety. How not to get freaked out, how to
Speaker 1: manage pain for children during annual visits to the doctor,
Speaker 1: let alone more chronic and really complicated illnesses and things
Speaker 1: that kids have to go through. How to handle pokes
Speaker 1: with needles, broken bones, which y'all I just went through
Speaker 1: Albe just broke his arm, surgeries, and like I said,
Speaker 1: chronic and lingering pain. Doctor Jody Thomas is a license
Speaker 1: clinical Psychologists and specialist and pediatric medical Illness and Trauma.
Speaker 1: She has twenty plus years of experience working with children, families,
Speaker 1: and adults dealing with medical illness and trauma, depression, and anxiety.
Speaker 1: Jody is the founder and executive director of the Meg Foundation,
Speaker 1: which is an organization dedicated to giving kids, parents and
Speaker 1: caregivers science backed superpowers to help manage the pain experience
Speaker 1: and fend off any freak out monsters in the process.
Speaker 1: This is so usually helpful this topic today, Jody, I
Speaker 1: am so stoked you're here. Welcome to Katie's crib. First
Speaker 1: and foremost, I love everything you are doing. I didn't. Sadly,
Speaker 1: I'm probably like all the people you work with, where
Speaker 1: it is not known that there are options now to
Speaker 1: help our kids with pain management, from as small as
Speaker 1: their annual checkups to more complicated illnesses and chronics, diseases
Speaker 1: and stuff. First and foremost, can you tell us about
Speaker 1: the Meg Foundation, what it is and how you started it?
Speaker 3: Sure?
Speaker 2: The Meg Foundation is the nonprofit that I run that
Speaker 2: is dedicated to empowering kids and families around pain and
Speaker 2: medical anxiety. So I'm a clinical psychologist. I've been doing
Speaker 2: this for twenty five years now.
Speaker 1: Just you look good.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much wow for that.
Speaker 2: And really what it was about was knowing that the
Speaker 2: practice of pain management is about thirty to forty years
Speaker 2: behind the research, which is just crazy. And as I
Speaker 2: tell people, you don't need me, you need what I know.
Speaker 2: We need to be able to kind of use technology
Speaker 2: and design to make sure that parents have what they
Speaker 2: need to be able to protect their kid and protect
Speaker 2: their families because it's a lot more than a difficult
Speaker 2: five minutes at the doctor's office.
Speaker 1: It's that they never want to go oh, and it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: my goodness, if we just figured out a way to
Speaker 1: manage the pain and the anxiety, then maybe they it
Speaker 1: wouldn't be so traumatic every time there's a checkup or
Speaker 1: a sickness or a common cold like anything like that.
Speaker 2: Exactly, or it becomes I'm sure we all know that
Speaker 2: adult that we worry about that quote unquote doesn't do doctors,
Speaker 2: and they don't do doctors because of that preventable stuff
Speaker 2: that happened when they were four years old, and they
Speaker 2: become people like my own brother in law who dies
Speaker 2: of stage four cancer because he waits six months to
Speaker 2: get a blood test because he scared of needles. And
Speaker 2: I wish that story was unusual, and it's just.
Speaker 1: Not five men right now that I know, and one
Speaker 1: family member of mine the same. He had a lump
Speaker 1: terrified of doctors. You never ever went to doctors. He
Speaker 1: died of a cancer that was very treatable.
Speaker 3: One hundred percent.
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry sorry to hear that, and I know
Speaker 2: that happened, so we knew that happened every day, and
Speaker 2: so that really became that mission of I tell people
Speaker 2: is tired of playing cleanup, and we need to play prevention.
Speaker 2: And so really lucky to have these amazing experts from
Speaker 2: all over the world and we come together and find
Speaker 2: a really cool and creative ways to get these tools
Speaker 2: into the hands of people win and where they need them.
Speaker 2: My turning point came when my daughter was in the
Speaker 2: nick You for twenty seven days and I found myself
Speaker 2: on the other side. I've been in Nicky's my entire career.
Speaker 2: Turns out really not so fun on the other side
Speaker 2: of that deal, right, not surprising, but like our pain
Speaker 2: management for premies, what I had to fight for her
Speaker 2: to get, knowing that poor pain management then causes depression, anxiety,
Speaker 2: chronic pain for her the rest of her life. When
Speaker 2: we're not we're damaging those not yet fully cooked neurological systems.
Speaker 2: And as I looked around that nick You, knowing that
Speaker 2: literally these other moms cared for their babies as much
Speaker 2: as I desperately loved mine, I just happened to know
Speaker 2: what I should be fighting for, that there was something
Speaker 2: to fight for and how to fight for.
Speaker 1: It that there's options which we'll get into, but we
Speaker 1: don't even know that, like, oh, there's like topical numbing
Speaker 1: cream that can help with IVS or help with needles
Speaker 1: and things like that. Where's the name Meg come from?
Speaker 2: Meg comes from a dear friend and colleague of mine
Speaker 2: who was the one who pushed me to start the
Speaker 2: foundation because I've been honestly complaining about this for years,
Speaker 2: Like I was running the Stanford pain and rehab program
Speaker 2: at the time. We were talking about all this, and
Speaker 2: when I moved from the Bay Area to Denver and
Speaker 2: imploded life and resettling things, she turned to me and said,
Speaker 2: so are you going to do what you're supposed to do?
Speaker 3: Are you going to get too busy again?
Speaker 1: What a great event?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: So Meg had this amazing ability to call you out
Speaker 2: in very helpful, productive and loving ways. And so as
Speaker 2: we were going through the process of starting the foundation,
Speaker 2: and she was actually going through cancer treatment at that time,
Speaker 2: we were desperately trying to find a name and couldn't
Speaker 2: find anything that fits, and we had just found out
Speaker 2: that her treatment it failed and she wasn't going to survive.
Speaker 3: And I was like, you know, I think it's just
Speaker 3: supposed to be the meg Foundation. I think this is
Speaker 3: what we're supposed to do.
Speaker 1: What a enlightened just a big life moment where it
Speaker 1: all just goes me exactly. Can you tell us what
Speaker 1: are the three types of pain? There is procedural, acute,
Speaker 1: and chronic. Can you explain that first?
Speaker 3: Absolutely?
Speaker 2: So, Procedural pain is what typically is almost.
Speaker 3: All of our first experiences with pain.
Speaker 2: This is needles, This is even blood pressure cuffs and
Speaker 2: things like that. So the discomfort that's associated with any
Speaker 2: sort of medical procedure, So you can tell why this
Speaker 2: is often the source of where we see the seeds
Speaker 2: of medical anxiety happen. And then there's acute pain, which
Speaker 2: is just our most straightforward it's injury, broken bones, broken bones, surgery,
Speaker 2: stepped on a lego.
Speaker 1: Like I sure all of that, Sure, a beasting.
Speaker 2: A beasting, all of that. And then chronic pain is
Speaker 2: by definition, pain that lasts more than six months. But
Speaker 2: really what we're talking about is that pain that sticks
Speaker 2: around much longer than it should. And one of the
Speaker 2: really big misconceptions. I ran the chronic pain program at
Speaker 2: the rehab program at Stanford, and everyone would always say
Speaker 2: to me, like, kids don't have chronic pain. I'm like,
Speaker 2: actually they do. So this is what people are really
Speaker 2: blown away by. But when we put in headaches, stomach aches,
Speaker 2: body pain, all of those things, one in four kids
Speaker 2: will have chronic pain, and a lot of them have
Speaker 2: that even more frequently, and we see that with more distress. So,
Speaker 2: like the rates of chronic pain in everyone, including children,
Speaker 2: totally skyrocketed during the pandemic, which wasn't surprising. Chronic stress, procedural, acute.
Speaker 3: And chronic.
Speaker 2: It's a biological, psychological, and social experience.
Speaker 3: That's not weird.
Speaker 2: It's not odd. It is how it is all the time.
Speaker 2: So when people say, oh, it's all in your head,
Speaker 2: which is used to dismiss pain, technically speaking, they're right
Speaker 2: because we do create a pain experience in our head,
Speaker 2: but not in a way that means you're crazy. Like
Speaker 2: my ultimate example, all the time, as they said, look,
Speaker 2: have you ever noticed that hurts a lot worse to
Speaker 2: stub your toe when you're in a bad mood than
Speaker 2: when you're in a good mood.
Speaker 1: Totally, So now.
Speaker 2: It's extrapolate that to what it's like to get a
Speaker 2: medical procedure or you're in an urgent care. You are
Speaker 2: with your kid who broke an arm or you're in
Speaker 2: chronic pain, that those aspects of the psychological and the
Speaker 2: physical and the social part of that experience are a
Speaker 2: huge but somehow we just don't really like talk about that,
Speaker 2: even though we have, like again, decades of research.
Speaker 1: Do this okay? So for the parents listening whose kids
Speaker 1: fly off the handle for the procedural pain management, what
Speaker 1: information should we best arm ourselves with the next doctor's appointment?
Speaker 2: Parents will often say to me, out of the incredibly
Speaker 2: great intentions, which as a mom of two I totally get,
Speaker 2: is I just don't mention this and that they're gonna
Speaker 2: have to get Usually it's shots, right, number one question?
Speaker 3: Child? Do I have to get a shot? Oh?
Speaker 1: Yeah, he asked me. Last night. My son was up
Speaker 1: last night with an earache. I think he slept He's
Speaker 1: got one big floppy ear and I think he slept
Speaker 1: on it like folded. He's like, I have a ear infection.
Speaker 1: I was like, well, if you wake up and there's
Speaker 1: inner ear pain, we'll definitely have to get that checked down.
Speaker 1: He's like, oh, I have to get a shot, And
Speaker 1: I was like, no, they will have to just look
Speaker 1: in your ear. But yeah. So most people's mode, which
Speaker 1: is mine too, is we're just not going to mention
Speaker 1: the shot until we get there.
Speaker 2: Yes, So when I say that, I said, okay, cool,
Speaker 2: So let's think about this for a sec. Picture, you're
Speaker 2: like your biggest work meeting you've ever had, only no
Speaker 2: one tells you what's going to happen until two minutes.
Speaker 1: So that's a fucking bad idea. Why are we right, Well,
Speaker 1: because we don't want to deal.
Speaker 2: Actually, here's the deal. We don't know how to deal,
Speaker 2: and that's really your issue. We think about stress as
Speaker 2: a general concept. It is the difference between what we
Speaker 2: perceive is the needs of the situation and our ability
Speaker 2: to meet the needs of that situation. I don't know
Speaker 2: what the hell to do anyway, Like why am.
Speaker 3: I going to bring it up?
Speaker 2: But we have to remember that just like with that
Speaker 2: big work meeting, it's not that you're not going to
Speaker 2: feel anxious, it's what you're going to do prepare to
Speaker 2: cope and deal with that anxiety. And that's really where
Speaker 2: we have to go with our kids. Parents will say
Speaker 2: I don't want my kid to feel anxious. I'm like,
Speaker 2: that's not the way humans work.
Speaker 1: That's welcome to life, too, Welcome to life.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's like our biggest school in general with our
Speaker 2: kids is to help them figure out how to tolery, uncertainty, discomfort,
Speaker 2: and anxiety. And it's very much that model and say, look,
Speaker 2: we're going to prepare so like with your son, he
Speaker 2: says that last night and again, lucky, we don't have
Speaker 2: a shot. We're just gonna have to look at the
Speaker 2: air and check it out.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: It's to say, well, you know what, Bud, we don't,
Speaker 2: but if we do, remember we have all of our plan,
Speaker 2: we have our coping skills, we know what we're gonna
Speaker 2: do to make that poke be totally fine and okay.
Speaker 2: So it's about preparing kids and preparing ourselves because not shocking.
Speaker 2: The largest predictor of the kid's distress is the parent's distress.
Speaker 2: And it's opening because moms will turn out to me
Speaker 2: and said, cool, you're saying it's my fault. I'm like, no,
Speaker 2: I'm saying, congratulations. You have a good attachment to your child, right,
Speaker 2: you care, you care a lot, you care, and they
Speaker 2: care about you and they pick up on you. That's
Speaker 2: called good attachment. Nice work.
Speaker 1: So you think a few days in advance. We say, hey, Bud,
Speaker 1: we have your annual checkup coming up. There's going to
Speaker 1: be a poke. It's going to be one second. I
Speaker 1: get them all the time, And let's talk about how
Speaker 1: we can best support you. Do you want to bring
Speaker 1: U stuff? Like what are the options?
Speaker 3: Yes, So we do a couple of things.
Speaker 2: One you're pointing out really the importance of language, right,
Speaker 2: so you'll hear you or poke because shot is immediately like,
Speaker 2: there's an automatic response. People have the word shot, needle.
Speaker 2: And so when we use your like poke or we're
Speaker 2: gonna put some medicine in your arm, or we're gonna
Speaker 2: put your medicine in your leg. And even when we
Speaker 2: talk about kids, how we frame it right. So what
Speaker 2: I'll said to my kids, I'm like, look, we get
Speaker 2: to go get some magic medicine at the doctor.
Speaker 3: It's going to help you stay healthy.
Speaker 1: That's great. Never phrased it that way, right.
Speaker 2: That we get to go do this, which sounds very different.
Speaker 2: And again not to sugarcoat, everyone's like, we are you lying.
Speaker 2: I'm like, no, no, believe me. I am all about
Speaker 2: being super honest with children.
Speaker 1: But it also is a privilege, like you're phrasing it
Speaker 1: in the way like we're getting magic medicine from years
Speaker 1: of studying so that you don't get measles and you
Speaker 1: don't get I mean, I wouldn't say this to him,
Speaker 1: but I'm understanding you might.
Speaker 3: Actually kids want to know.
Speaker 2: You're like, this is actually super cool.
Speaker 3: Check this out.
Speaker 2: There is a medicine that used to be kids would
Speaker 2: get really sick. So your child's at the best, at
Speaker 2: the perfect age for this because he has a great
Speaker 2: use of language, right, he can understand. He's super interested
Speaker 2: in learning and figuring things out. And you're like, Okay,
Speaker 2: this is the coolest. We're going to talk about some
Speaker 2: ways that those pokes don't even need to bother you.
Speaker 2: Let's make a game plan and let's figure out what
Speaker 2: you want to do, because remember that choice is power.
Speaker 2: Like they don't have a choice to get a poke.
Speaker 2: You know, if we've decided as parents that this is
Speaker 2: important and healthy, but they we can do a lot
Speaker 2: of choices, and kids love choice and power. Right, this
Speaker 2: what helps it? Right, we know this if it's putting
Speaker 2: on your shoes.
Speaker 1: Going to bed, it's like, how many of you get
Speaker 1: two books and one song? It's like, yes, God, and
Speaker 1: which book do you want?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: And so as long as you get to choose the book,
Speaker 2: then we've given you a sense of power and control
Speaker 2: over but you're still going.
Speaker 1: To bed dude, right, right.
Speaker 2: But when we have power control and we get to practice,
Speaker 2: be like, hey, you know what I learned some really
Speaker 2: cool ways for you to sit. Do you want to
Speaker 2: stall on my lap? Do you want to sit this way?
Speaker 2: Do you want to sit straddling me? And that's what
Speaker 2: we have all these guides to how to do that
Speaker 2: because one of the biggest mistakes that we will see
Speaker 2: repeated on repeat is holding kids down for pokes and procedures.
Speaker 2: It is quite literally a recipe for medical trauma and
Speaker 2: it happens all the time. And there's a lot of
Speaker 2: reasons for that. But if I am going to empower
Speaker 2: moms and parents to do one thing, it is never
Speaker 2: let someone hold your kid down for a medical procedure
Speaker 2: unless you plan on finding and paying someone like me
Speaker 2: later to take care of that.
Speaker 1: That's that's that's a therapy. So really we should be
Speaker 1: putting them on our lap, holding them in a hug.
Speaker 2: Yes, And there are ways to do that. Because you'll
Speaker 2: hear pushback from providers sometime be like, well, I have
Speaker 2: to keep them safe. This is the only way to
Speaker 2: keep them safe. And that's definitely the knowledge that they
Speaker 2: were given, but it's also the research would well establish
Speaker 2: it that's not true. You can use your arms and
Speaker 2: your body to help keep their body still enough to
Speaker 2: get the pope safely, but they are comforted by your
Speaker 2: physical presence. You know that same feeling. We love that
Speaker 2: hug that we get. It's releasing oxytocin and all sorts
Speaker 2: of beautiful things. We get to slow down our own breathing,
Speaker 2: and your kid will unconsciously follow that. And you're sitting
Speaker 2: there talking with them, right You're like, hey, Bud, I'm
Speaker 2: right here. All good, We're going to be done in
Speaker 2: a sec. I've got you excellent, nice work. You're being
Speaker 2: so brave.
Speaker 3: This is so cool. Check it out where we're going
Speaker 3: to go get ice cream? After all? Oh, we're already done.
Speaker 3: That's awesome. What flavor ice.
Speaker 2: Cream are we going to get? We do our mom
Speaker 2: instinct or parent instinct. You know how to comfort your kid.
Speaker 2: You do it all the time. But somehow often we
Speaker 2: walk into that doctor's office and we feel like we're
Speaker 2: not allowed to do that and we are, and so
Speaker 2: comfort positioning and practice saying that at home, be like,
Speaker 2: check this out. This is how we're going to do it.
Speaker 2: Do you want to practice on your stuffy? Why don't
Speaker 2: you show me on your teddy bear how you're going
Speaker 2: to do this. Medical play is fantastic, and you remember
Speaker 2: that kids. We work out our stuff through talking. Kids
Speaker 2: work their stuff out through play, and when they can
Speaker 2: sit there and play, they get a greater sense of control.
Speaker 2: And you're both walking in there knowing what you want
Speaker 2: to do. You're like, great, should we do numbing cream.
Speaker 2: Let's get numbing cream and explaining to kids what that does.
Speaker 2: We put this on your skin and you don't even
Speaker 2: have to feel the poke.
Speaker 3: It's amazing.
Speaker 1: Why is numbing cream not offered? I don't understand.
Speaker 3: Oh, believe me.
Speaker 2: It's spent decades struggling with this. It is absolutely it's
Speaker 2: the best practice recommendation for every major medical and pain
Speaker 2: organization in the world. It's absolutely the best practice and
Speaker 2: no one does it. So it is a number one thing,
Speaker 2: and it is when the powers it be that sort
Speaker 2: of run the medical world at this point, when they
Speaker 2: were in medical school in like the seventies and eighties,
Speaker 2: they were quite literally taught that kid's pain didn't matter.
Speaker 2: If I had had to open heart surgery.
Speaker 3: As an infant and I'm forty eight years.
Speaker 2: Old, they would have paralyzed but not anesthetized me.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, are you kidding.
Speaker 3: I'm not kidding.
Speaker 2: So the belief at that point was the anesthesia was
Speaker 2: really dangerous and which is insane we know now, and
Speaker 2: the mortality rate was crazy because we literally wouldn't anesthetize
Speaker 2: these babies. I'm like, yeah, what, Yes, they were literally taught,
Speaker 2: and they were taught especially for babies. When we know
Speaker 2: that those little infants, two things are happening. One, you're
Speaker 2: traumatizing the parent and that carries over to those neck shots.
Speaker 2: But two, we're damaging that not yet fully cooked neurological
Speaker 2: system and we are creating more pain. Later on, the
Speaker 2: thought was like, well, if they can't remember it, it
Speaker 2: doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: Yeah, then it's not going to matter. That's not true.
Speaker 2: No, at one hundred percent matters, and that matters a lot,
Speaker 2: and so being able to manage it from the beginning
Speaker 2: is this incredible gift.
Speaker 1: Do you recommend parents like bringing their own numbing cream.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. Like you can always call and be like, Hi,
Speaker 2: do you do this? If I had to place some
Speaker 2: money on the bet, they'd be like, no, ever do that.
Speaker 3: It's not a big deal.
Speaker 2: It's fine, and you're like all evidence to the contrary. Actually,
Speaker 2: but it's really easy to get over the counter LIGHTI
Speaker 2: king cream. You can now get a light on.
Speaker 3: Go. Yeah, it's really not that hard.
Speaker 1: One of my best friend's sons is going through like
Speaker 1: a lot of testing and things like that and has
Speaker 1: had like multiple MRIs and spinal taps and and Andrew
Speaker 1: Grahams and a lot of things like that, And honestly,
Speaker 1: the worst part is him getting the IV. It's he's
Speaker 1: a very active boy. So he's screaming doing backbends and
Speaker 1: she's holding him and they're trying to get this thing
Speaker 1: in place. And I don't understand it because my son
Speaker 1: was put out for nine cavities. Yep, yeah, so funny.
Speaker 1: He had nine cavities in four and a half. And
Speaker 1: don't worry. We have a whole episode of Katie's Crib
Speaker 1: with awesome dentists. I've learned a lot since that rodeo,
Speaker 1: but it was so great because what they did in
Speaker 1: the dentist's office was they actually put him out with
Speaker 1: a mask thing EF mask first and then the IV.
Speaker 1: So my son had no idea what that was happening.
Speaker 1: And then his school even went so far is his
Speaker 1: school has very progressive nursery school, but they have all
Speaker 1: of these doctor kids, and when someone has a procedure
Speaker 1: coming up, they spend weeks leading up doing play with
Speaker 1: the mask that was going to go on his face,
Speaker 1: so that when the mask was put on his face,
Speaker 1: it was not the first time. He's not not vera. No,
Speaker 1: he had been playing that at school for a while,
Speaker 1: but he had already practiced with the mask and had
Speaker 1: played a lot. But he was put out and also
Speaker 1: not woken up until the IV was out. So I
Speaker 1: don't understand why this is going on.
Speaker 2: Okay, So I just want to break down a few
Speaker 2: of what your school and what you guys did so
Speaker 2: brilliantly with that. That is one of the number one
Speaker 2: things that I tell parents to ask for. I'm like,
Speaker 2: if we're gonna do being gassed, do it first so
Speaker 2: we don't have to go through the entire IV process.
Speaker 2: There are ways we can prepare them for that, no problem.
Speaker 2: But why if we don't have to have do and
Speaker 2: let's do the mask and to practice with the mask,
Speaker 2: because the amount of mask phobia that I've treated, because remember,
Speaker 2: we're going in, we're uncertain and we're scared, and what
Speaker 2: your school did gorgeously is prepare him where this is
Speaker 2: what's going to happen. This is what's going to happen next,
Speaker 2: we're gonna put this thing and it's the coolest. You
Speaker 2: just breathe and all sending to go to sleep.
Speaker 1: We take powers and he was asleep in ten seconds.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so like your friend, that story is the
Speaker 2: reason we started the foundation because we know that those
Speaker 2: first times when she was going through that terrifying process
Speaker 2: of diagnosis and when those first things happened, whatever that was,
Speaker 2: it's we're getting all these procedures and because everyone is
Speaker 2: scared and terrified, now all of that is associated, right,
Speaker 2: So that IV just isn't about that IV. It's about
Speaker 2: everything that was happening the first time he got that IV,
Speaker 2: and how scared everybody was and how everyone felt that
Speaker 2: need to hold what's down and to restrict and so
Speaker 2: there's so much associated with that. And just let you
Speaker 2: know there are ways to undo that. But this is
Speaker 2: a cleanup situation.
Speaker 1: Again, so you're spending all of your time cleaning up. Yes,
Speaker 1: is making small changes that we could change it from
Speaker 1: the jump.
Speaker 2: From the moment we start, and that's what we want
Speaker 2: to be to do. But when we go in and
Speaker 2: we can help, okay, great, we're going to do this
Speaker 2: process and proteachure. So distraction is one of the most
Speaker 2: powerful things. Like every single one of us as a parent.
Speaker 1: Pro level distractors all day.
Speaker 2: But it's like you're like trying to get your kids
Speaker 2: attention when they're staring at that video or super into
Speaker 2: the game. An entire brass band could be going through
Speaker 2: the room and they don't notice, right, And if we
Speaker 2: can take that thing, that's so annoying when you're trying
Speaker 2: to get them to put on their shoes and get
Speaker 2: out the door. But it's unbelievably powerful when it comes
Speaker 2: to sitting there and that focus of attention, they truly
Speaker 2: aren't hearing you.
Speaker 1: So is that like a you put on a show
Speaker 1: while they're getting it? Is that? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Absolutely?
Speaker 2: Like this nurser doctor is really good at their job.
Speaker 2: They're going to take care of it, but it's not
Speaker 2: that fun. To pay attention to that. Let's figure out
Speaker 2: what you want to pay attention to to help you
Speaker 2: feel safe and calm. So do you want to watch
Speaker 2: a show? And then the more specific we get, do
Speaker 2: you want to watch Bluee? Do you want to watch
Speaker 2: Peppa Pig? Great, let's make sure we have that download
Speaker 2: to the phone and that it's ready and that remember
Speaker 2: that it's the build up that's problematic. So we get
Speaker 2: to sit here and while we spend most of our
Speaker 2: lives trying to get kids off of our.
Speaker 1: Screens, Yeah, this is when we need it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when we're sitting in the waiting room of the
Speaker 2: doctor's office or waiting for that, we're like, great, let's
Speaker 2: watch Bluey and remember, Okay, we got our plan, you
Speaker 2: got your numbing cream. On vibration, there's an amazing device
Speaker 2: called the buzzy Bee that's really great for that. Vibration
Speaker 2: is so fantastic. It's literally just vibrates, Okay, Like it's
Speaker 2: just vibration and you put it on the skin. So basically, again,
Speaker 2: pain happens in our brain when we're using vibration. You're
Speaker 2: just putting this vibrating thing on our skin and it
Speaker 2: creates this traffic jam of signals on your neurological system.
Speaker 2: So simply that pain signal doesn't get through.
Speaker 1: That's a great idea. Geez, we should be doing that
Speaker 1: for shots too. Yeah, how do we support our kids?
Speaker 1: Let's move on to the next one with the pain,
Speaker 1: which is like the be staying and the broken bone.
Speaker 2: So you've ever seen like a toddler fall like face
Speaker 2: plant and then they look at you. They're looking at
Speaker 2: you to be like, how am I supposed to feel
Speaker 2: about this? And am I safe?
Speaker 3: And okay?
Speaker 2: So that difference that are we harm are we in danger?
Speaker 2: So one is being able to remember that pain in
Speaker 2: itself is a warning signal. It's telling us something is
Speaker 2: wrong or may be wrong, and that we should check
Speaker 2: it out. So if we step on a beat and
Speaker 2: it hurts good, we should know that there's a bee
Speaker 2: stinger in there.
Speaker 3: Thing. So it's broken arm.
Speaker 2: You're like, how cool is it that your body knew
Speaker 2: how to keep you safe and tell us that your
Speaker 2: bone is broken. So now it can tell us that
Speaker 2: so when we go to the doctor and we get
Speaker 2: it fixed, so we know that we have to do
Speaker 2: to keep your body safe and okay. But here's the
Speaker 2: cool part. We know that now, so we don't need
Speaker 2: that signal anymore. So let's figure out what we want
Speaker 2: to do to turn that signal down right and okay, cool?
Speaker 2: And also it's even tricks, like when we break the
Speaker 2: arm is to rub the body, like if we break
Speaker 2: our wrist, then rubbing up at the shoulder. Remember that
Speaker 2: signal has to go from our wrist and travel up our.
Speaker 1: Arm into our brain.
Speaker 2: And so one of those things is rubbing that spot
Speaker 2: in between where the trauma is and your brain. You
Speaker 2: are creating alternate sensation. Also when we do and that's
Speaker 2: similar like when we're holding our hand or when we're
Speaker 2: doing that is to say, hey, don't you notice how
Speaker 2: it feels you feel how warm my hand is? Do
Speaker 2: you feel me rubbing you? When we focus our attention,
Speaker 2: our focus of attention is one of the most important
Speaker 2: components to our pain experience. And so in every person
Speaker 2: who's ever sat there and at the end of the
Speaker 2: day you got a bruise and you have no idea
Speaker 2: where it came from. This happens to your kids all
Speaker 2: the time. You have one example, the kids, you're like,
Speaker 2: I don't even know where that came from. Now some
Speaker 2: tell it's I'm like, look, you were having so much
Speaker 2: fun and you were so focused on something else that
Speaker 2: you didn't even notice that your body got damaged enough
Speaker 2: to get a bruise. And that's because your body was
Speaker 2: safe and okay, and your brain knew that and you
Speaker 2: were like, yeah, we don't need to we're paying attention
Speaker 2: to this. So do you think if your brother or
Speaker 2: sister came up and hit you hard enough to get
Speaker 2: a bruise, would would that hurt?
Speaker 1: Yes? Yes, stop stop.
Speaker 2: Everything, we go to everything, we go to hell right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: but it's the same tissue damage, right, That biological piece
Speaker 2: is one hundred percent the same. It is our focus
Speaker 2: of attention and the meaning we've assigned to it that
Speaker 2: totally changes it.
Speaker 3: And in that.
Speaker 2: Moment when your kid gets that steps on the bee,
Speaker 2: breaks the arm, is you get to be that person
Speaker 2: defining it. You're like, oh my goodness, you know what.
Speaker 2: You're right, but that is a big one. We're gonna
Speaker 2: have to go to the dock and get that checked
Speaker 2: out to make sure your body is safe and okay, cool,
Speaker 2: let's figure out the ways you can help yourself feel
Speaker 2: better and calm.
Speaker 3: Why we do that?
Speaker 2: So let's rub, we can watch a video, we can
Speaker 2: do those things. But your common response because that anxiety
Speaker 2: is are we safe and okay? And the truth is
Speaker 2: even if they break an arm, you're gonna go the doctor.
Speaker 2: It's not gonna be a good time. But they're generally
Speaker 2: safe and no, okay, right, You're like, we've got a
Speaker 2: course of action.
Speaker 3: You're gonna be cool.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And also that whole idea of turning it into
Speaker 2: that curiosity and adventure, like, Okay, this is awesome because.
Speaker 1: You're probably loved a cast more than an entire world,
Speaker 1: like the color watching it go on, It wasn't something
Speaker 1: to all, But.
Speaker 2: It becomes scary if we are acting scared and instead
Speaker 2: being like, Okay, this is amazing, dude, check it out.
Speaker 3: We get to pick a color.
Speaker 1: He was scared when he was like, how are they
Speaker 1: when they get it off? Is it a saw this,
Speaker 1: that and the other thing? And so I was, you
Speaker 1: know what, but I'm going to do some research and
Speaker 1: show you some videos of kids getting their cast off.
Speaker 1: And I found some videos of kids like hysterical laughing
Speaker 1: because it like tickled.
Speaker 2: It tickles, and like the vibration actually ticked.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they showed a guy actually using the machine
Speaker 1: and like putting it on bare skin and how it
Speaker 1: did nothing, and then my son was totally fine.
Speaker 2: Okay, so brilliant, And Lana lakes one, I want to
Speaker 2: point out again highlight a couple of amazing things you
Speaker 2: did there. One, when we do not know the answer,
Speaker 2: it is a perfect and good thing to say, you
Speaker 2: know what, dude, I don't know, let me check that out.
Speaker 2: But I know it's gonna be saying okay, let me
Speaker 2: get back to you. And we do have to circle back.
Speaker 2: But when we're thrown off by an answer that we
Speaker 2: don't know, it is really good to be like, you
Speaker 2: know what, I really want to answer that. Let me
Speaker 2: look into it and I'm going to get back to you.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: So that is a great strategy. We don't have to
Speaker 2: answer every scary, big question immediately. And the second was
Speaker 2: it's about expectation. If you guys both came in in
Speaker 2: a couple days before you practice, you got your game plan,
Speaker 2: you got your thing. And then when their anxiety starts
Speaker 2: to peak and you're like, you know what, bad, I know,
Speaker 2: no one loves it. Remember we got our game plan.
Speaker 2: This is going to be awesome. You're going to get
Speaker 2: to prove to yourself how we can make this no
Speaker 2: big deal. You and I we're in this together.
Speaker 3: We got this.
Speaker 1: How do we best support our kids in the more
Speaker 1: chronic pain? I don't think I've faced that yet, yasol.
Speaker 2: So, chronic pain is tough because it really a lot
Speaker 2: of it. First of all, you have to establish hurt
Speaker 2: versus harm. So when things are hurting, is there something
Speaker 2: actually wrong? Like when a arm breaks. An arm is broken,
Speaker 2: we know there's a bone, we know there's a problem.
Speaker 3: We know it's kind of get fixed.
Speaker 2: With chronic pain, like chronic abdominal pain and chronic headaches,
Speaker 2: we do want to go to our doc. We do
Speaker 2: want to get that general work up. Is there anything
Speaker 2: going on that needs attention, that needs something to happen.
Speaker 2: Is there some sort of intervention that's going to need
Speaker 2: to occur? Is this telling us something important? Is the
Speaker 2: original intent of pain happening? Like it's a warning? The
Speaker 2: problem is a lot of the warning's just we're done
Speaker 2: and we don't need it anymore, And why are we
Speaker 2: still dealing the signal itself? That pain itself becomes the
Speaker 2: problem rather than it actually.
Speaker 3: Signaling something that's wrong.
Speaker 2: But even when we're talking about something like Crohn's disease
Speaker 2: or IBS or chronic abdominal pain, those are obviously very physical,
Speaker 2: real things. Like we're not saying that psychological interventions mean
Speaker 2: the pain isn't real. Well, it's one hundred percent real.
Speaker 2: All pain is real, but these things are going to
Speaker 2: be the ways that you're going to feel better. So
Speaker 2: it also means not giving into the pain all the time,
Speaker 2: and that is a really difficult thing as a parent.
Speaker 3: So if your kid has.
Speaker 2: The flu, sticking them on the couch, letting them watch
Speaker 2: endless TV and bringing them soup is a great plan.
Speaker 1: It's finite.
Speaker 3: It's exactly.
Speaker 2: It is finite when we're talking about chronk abdominal pain
Speaker 2: or chronic pain. At some point when we determine this
Speaker 2: is going on and it's going to keep on going
Speaker 2: on that when we're doing that, we're actually prolonging that
Speaker 2: experience because instead of being able to say, you know,
Speaker 2: when kids would say to me, well it hurts when
Speaker 2: I'm at school, I'm like, does it hurt at home?
Speaker 2: And I'm like yes, I'm like them, we're going to school.
Speaker 2: Because the truth is that functioning is going to come
Speaker 2: back before pain relief because your body has had an
Speaker 2: idea that I have to stop functioning and wait for
Speaker 2: the pain to go away. But with most chronic pain,
Speaker 2: it's not gonna go away until we start functioning.
Speaker 1: Got it.
Speaker 2: And again, like your broken arm, if it still hurts,
Speaker 2: do not throw the ball or do not do things right.
Speaker 2: But your brain and your body have learned a lesson
Speaker 2: that there's something dangerous and you should stop, even when
Speaker 2: that is wholly untrue. And so to do that, we
Speaker 2: have to do that thing over and over again. Be like,
Speaker 2: hey body, we're actually cool, we're actually fine.
Speaker 3: And okay.
Speaker 2: The truth is as much as you can physiologically and
Speaker 2: psychologically put that pain.
Speaker 3: Down, calm yourself.
Speaker 2: So with kids with chronic pain, we have to teach
Speaker 2: them really amazing coping skills, yoga, meditation, realizing, going on
Speaker 2: a walk around the block calms our body, learning breathing
Speaker 2: techniques and strategies, Learning that waiting a really long time
Speaker 2: to eat until we're starving is not a good idea.
Speaker 2: That we need to learn to drink enough water, that
Speaker 2: going to bed at the same time every night, even
Speaker 2: though that's rough, it's going to be game changing and
Speaker 2: your ability to manage, and that's not and again and
Speaker 2: none of that makes pain your fault or anything you did.
Speaker 2: Your body is requiring something so much higher level.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like all this self care stuff that I
Speaker 1: wish I had implemented from the time I was little.
Speaker 3: One hundred percent.
Speaker 1: Wow, this is so amazing, I wanted to say, everyone listening.
Speaker 1: The meg Foundation your website. What I also loved about
Speaker 1: it is that you can literally enter in your kid's age,
Speaker 1: because so much of how we support our kids through
Speaker 1: each kind of pain actually changes with their age and
Speaker 1: the language we use and what's developmentally appropriate. So you
Speaker 1: can literally enter your kid's age in the website and
Speaker 1: it will change, because I'm sure it changes from a
Speaker 1: three year old to a fourteen year.
Speaker 2: Old absolutely, So it directs to you. Then we want
Speaker 2: you to be able to find the things you need
Speaker 2: as quickly as possible, and so based on the type
Speaker 2: of pain and based on the age of your child
Speaker 2: being able to like, these are the resources that would
Speaker 2: be great for you.
Speaker 1: Love it. I feel so lucky, Like I have no
Speaker 1: needle fear or trauma at all. I think it's like
Speaker 1: kind of like, yeah, fuck you, let's go like, I've
Speaker 1: got this, Like I know this isn't a big deal.
Speaker 1: My husband is like a mouse, Like he's just terrified.
Speaker 2: And I'm guessing he's not a mouse in other areas.
Speaker 1: No, But I feel so lucky that I don't have
Speaker 1: any negative feelings about it, and so I feel it
Speaker 1: would be such a gift to try to give my
Speaker 1: kids the same gift because I've been able to walk
Speaker 1: through my life like I am not afraid of doctors.
Speaker 1: I'm not afraid of like how they're going to help me,
Speaker 1: Like I don't have a negative connotation around it.
Speaker 3: And you've lived through it.
Speaker 2: Yes, you've created that reality through that expectation and that belief,
Speaker 2: and that's really what we want to do for our kids,
Speaker 2: for our kids. And again you're like, and I'm guessing
Speaker 2: your husband's a good example of that too, Like in
Speaker 2: every other area of life.
Speaker 1: Let's make the next generation of children who are not
Speaker 1: having any needle fear.
Speaker 2: And understanding pain because that is also associated to addiction.
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm sure, chronic.
Speaker 2: Pain, use of oipioids, all of this. There's so many
Speaker 2: negative outcomes that we get to avoid by understanding pain
Speaker 2: and how it works. In our body and the power
Speaker 2: and control we can have over it.
Speaker 3: The other thing that I.
Speaker 2: Want to point out that's really important is that what
Speaker 2: we say after is instrumentally important. There's unbelievably really cool
Speaker 2: research and we actually have a video on the website
Speaker 2: called Framing the Story that talks about this that what
Speaker 2: we say after is unbelievably important for forming their memory
Speaker 2: memory of that and their expectations going forward that it
Speaker 2: will dick take how they will feel. And one of
Speaker 2: the things I love to do is a video the
Speaker 2: kids right after there and I'm like, hey, that was awesome,
Speaker 2: such a good job. What do you want to say
Speaker 2: to your future self the next time we get a poke?
Speaker 3: What helped? What was good? What was awesome?
Speaker 2: And they're like, okay, I really liked sucking on all
Speaker 2: of pop and watching the video and that was cool,
Speaker 2: and like was it a big deal or no big deal?
Speaker 2: And they're like, no big deal. And so the next
Speaker 2: time that comes and there starts to be that anxiety,
Speaker 2: You're like, hey, cool, let's check it yourself. Look what
Speaker 2: you said to yourself next time?
Speaker 1: WHOA, That's brilliant.
Speaker 2: Right when we're asking that question, we are forming that
Speaker 2: for them, and even by the way, if it did
Speaker 2: not go as well, so you have to be prepared
Speaker 2: to pull the plug. If we're at mock ten and
Speaker 2: we're holding it down, I'm like, you know what, unless
Speaker 2: someone is bleeding out, we don't actually need to get.
Speaker 3: This done today.
Speaker 2: And instead we're turning around being like, you know, I'm
Speaker 2: so proud of you. You went in that room and
Speaker 2: you got the plan and we got there. That was awesome.
Speaker 2: And next time we get to go even a little
Speaker 2: bit further. But nice work. That was great. Good job
Speaker 2: not kicking the doctor this time, your body safe, whatever
Speaker 2: that was, you stayed in the room. I'm so proud
Speaker 2: of you that we are reinforcing when we are highlighting
Speaker 2: what went well and positive and how we can build
Speaker 2: on that in the future.
Speaker 3: It is game.
Speaker 2: Changing because we'd had parents come to me we worked
Speaker 2: on a plan and they're like, well it just went
Speaker 2: terribly and I'm like, okay, talk to me.
Speaker 3: What happened.
Speaker 2: They're like, we went in, we had a plan, everyone
Speaker 2: was calm, but right before the poke when they really
Speaker 2: freaked out and started yelling, and I'm like, that's actually incredible,
Speaker 2: Like they made it that far. They made it in
Speaker 2: and we got it in and you did it and
Speaker 2: I'm looking at that, I'm like, I'm so proud of you.
Speaker 2: That's incredible.
Speaker 1: My god, Jody, the work you're doing is invaluable, and
Speaker 1: I know you are climbing a massive mountain of cultural
Speaker 1: norms that are very hard to shift. But your work
Speaker 1: is seen, and I hope all of the mamas and
Speaker 1: caretakers listening to this podcast will use and check out
Speaker 1: the website. Please, what is your How old are your kids?
Speaker 3: My kids are nine and eleven.
Speaker 1: Does anybody have a birthday coming up?
Speaker 3: Yes? My daughter here?
Speaker 1: What advice would you give to your kid on their
Speaker 1: upcoming birthday?
Speaker 3: On their upcoming birthday at are brilliant.
Speaker 2: So with my nine year old, who is a little
Speaker 2: people pleaser, my advice to her always and will definitely
Speaker 2: be advice to ten year old self is it's okay
Speaker 2: to make people mad.
Speaker 1: Yes, I wish I would have told me that, because
Speaker 1: I got a big people pleaser inside my soul is right.
Speaker 1: Love that and then I always ask our amazing guests
Speaker 1: to finish this sentence. Parenthood is so hard.
Speaker 4: So hard, It's so hard, and that's why we all
Speaker 4: have to come together and have podcasts like Katie's Crib
Speaker 4: so that we have a village together to help us
Speaker 4: all have the resources.
Speaker 1: And the knowledge and the information to make it easier,
Speaker 1: especially trips to the Doctor. Thank you, Doctor Jodi Thomas
Speaker 1: for coming on Katie's Crib. This was an incredible episode.
Speaker 1: I learned a ton.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: Thank you guys so much for listening to today's episode.
Speaker 1: I want to hear from you. Let's chat questions, comments, concerns.
Speaker 1: Let me know. You can always find me at Katiescrib
Speaker 1: at Shondaland dot com. Katie's Crib is a production of
Speaker 1: Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from
Speaker 1: Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.