1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: we're back with part three of our series about ancient 5 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: Pacific island navigation. In the previous couple of episodes, of course, 6 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: if you haven't listened to those, you should go back 7 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: and check those out first so you can understand what 8 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: we're talking about today. But in the last couple of 9 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:33,279 Speaker 1: episodes we talked about a lot of these fascinating mysteries 10 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: about the population of the Pacific Islands and and how 11 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: those islands were first colonized by humans, how people found them, 12 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: and then how people traveled between them once they knew 13 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 1: where all the islands were. Because, of course, this is 14 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: a huge area of the surface of the Earth that 15 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: is covered almost entirely by water, and only polka dotted 16 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: with these tiny islands here and there. And yet somehow, 17 00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: without charts, without instruments like a like a compass um, 18 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: the navigators of the Pacific Islands were able to reach 19 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: the other islands in in the surrounding areas with this 20 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: amazing level of accuracy. So in the first episode we 21 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: talked about some of the history theories about the history 22 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: of the settlement of these islands, and then in the 23 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: last episode we talked about techniques that have been documented 24 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 1: that allowed master navigators to locate and and sail to 25 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: islands in this in this vast ocean with enough accuracy 26 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: that they could do so reliably over and over again. 27 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 1: And what those techniques without charts and modern instruments would 28 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: have been. Yeah, this this whole realm of environmental navigation, 29 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 1: which I just want to drive home again when we're 30 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 1: talking about this, we're talking not about some sort of 31 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: innate art or something that is just uh, this one 32 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: acquires by you know, being out in the water or 33 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: being uh, you know, growing up on the ocean, that 34 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: sort of thing. Now, this was this was a science 35 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: that was learned that was passed down from generation to 36 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: generation across these these different Pacific cultures. That's right. One 37 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: of the main sources we've been referring to is a 38 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,799 Speaker 1: very important book in the history of of studying these 39 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: techniques that was by a scholar named David Lewis, and 40 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: it was published with the University of Hawaii Press in 41 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two. It's called We the Navigators, The Ancient 42 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 1: Art of Land Finding in the Pacific. And one thing 43 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: that's really really cool about this book is that Lewis 44 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 1: sailed well. He he interviewed many master navigators of different 45 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: Pacific islands in Micronesia and Polynesia, but he also sailed 46 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: with several navigators including UH, two very prominent navigators named 47 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,959 Speaker 1: Hippur and Tevak, from whom he learned a whole lot 48 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: about these these techniques firsthand at sea, like they were 49 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,799 Speaker 1: navigating his boat, which was a boat called the Ispiorn 50 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: and UH, and so we got to see these techniques firsthand. 51 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: And so in the last episode we talked mostly about 52 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: techniques for navigation on the open sea. Direction finding, so 53 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: especially using the stars to to orient towards your targets 54 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: and UH, and then using backup methods as well, such 55 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: as like using the sun during the daytime and navigating 56 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: by directionally reliable C swells, which was especially astounding to me, 57 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:16,679 Speaker 1: like the idea that you, you know, you could learn 58 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: how to feel for certain patterns of C swells that 59 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: reliably come from a certain direction and then use that 60 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: to know which way you're heading. UM, and then also, 61 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: of course, you would have to pair these direction finding 62 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: techniques on the open sea with the system of dead reckoning, 63 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: which is knowing how far you have traveled based on 64 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: your rate of travel, your starting position, and your direction 65 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: of travel and so and so. That would be a 66 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: way of sort of record keeping your journey mentally as 67 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: you're going along the way, even though you don't necessarily 68 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: have new environmental clues to choose from. But today we 69 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: wanted to get mainly into the question of land finding. 70 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: So a traditional Pacific navigator has used open c navigation 71 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: techniques like celestial orientation and dead reckoning to get roughly 72 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: to the vicinity of an island. Once you are nearing 73 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: your destination, how do you actually find the land? Yeah, 74 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: because as we discussed in the previous episode, you don't 75 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: want to you know, be sailing in the right direction 76 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: to be in the vicinity of the island and then 77 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: not be able to see it to again again not 78 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: be close enough to pick up on the very obvious 79 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: cues that you were near the island, and have to 80 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 1: pick up on those more subtle cues that would require 81 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: training and expertise to notice. Right, I mean, one of 82 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 1: the biggest dangers actually for a Pacific island sailor is missing, 83 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 1: your target is going past the island you're trying to 84 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 1: get to without realizing it. Yeah, I mean, in a 85 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 1: very very loose sense, it's like depending on say, your 86 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: your GPS navigational system, which we refer to previously, you know, 87 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: using that to get to the immediate area, like the 88 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,119 Speaker 1: block where the where the or is that you're trying 89 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: to go a story you've never been to before. But 90 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: then once you're there, the GPS is only gonna help 91 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 1: you so much. Then you're gonna have to pinpoint the sign, 92 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: figure out which storefront it is, figure out your parking, etcetera. 93 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: There are a whole new set of problems that your 94 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: mirror navigational system, your GPS, is not able to help 95 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: you with. Right. And so, one thing that's very interesting 96 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: that David Lewis explores in his book is what he 97 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: calls the idea of expanded target landfall. And what that 98 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: means is that by using a suite of land finding techniques, 99 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:40,799 Speaker 1: you can essentially extend the radius of land a certain 100 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: reliable distance out into the ocean. And I'll talk about 101 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: the distances as we go on, but there's a certain 102 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: reliable distance out into the ocean that you can just 103 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 1: expect to be able to detect nearby land even if 104 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 1: you can't see it. And if you measure land, including 105 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: those radii out into the ocean beyond the shore and 106 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,919 Speaker 1: h and especially beyond sort of like reefs and submerged 107 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: or or almost submerged a toolls nearby, you can actually 108 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: greatly expand the percent of the Pacific Ocean that is 109 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 1: taken up by by by land range. Basically, so you 110 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: can expand your target from these tiny islands surrounded mostly 111 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 1: by water to basically a block of islands with mostly 112 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: or totally overlapping ranges of land detectable water. Does that 113 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: make sense? Yes, yeah, basically increases the the the footprint 114 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: of the island, like the the detectable footprint of the island. Right. So, so, 115 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: of course the direction finding techniques like celestial navigation are 116 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: extremely important and getting you towards your your target, but 117 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: also the expanded target landfall is just as important, if 118 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 1: not more important. I mean, I guess you can't really 119 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: have one without the other. It is also extremely important 120 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: because you know, there's only so accurate you can get 121 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: with steering by stars, you still need to be able 122 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: to correct course and find the land once you're close enough. 123 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: And so, how far exactly can you expect to find 124 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: land from out in the ocean. Well, it does very 125 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: a lot, depending on local conditions. But Lewis cites a 126 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: scholar named Frankel who estimates that on average, land can 127 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: usually be detected from about thirty miles in any direction, 128 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: and Louis essentially agrees with this number. Uh, And then 129 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: he writes this quote. If we draw circles with thirty 130 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: miles radii around each Pacific island, we find that the 131 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: circles overlap over vast areas, giving rise to solid blocks 132 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: i e. Islands separated by not more than sixty miles 133 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: passing between which a canoe could not be more than 134 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: thirty miles offshore. So, with these expanded target landfall techniques, 135 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: the problem of finding these tiny islands in the past 136 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: ocean actually is much more manageable. It's reducible more to 137 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: finding these blocks or screens of islands within a certain angle. 138 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: You know a certain angle of direction from your starting position, 139 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: So it means that what would otherwise be a sprinkle 140 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: of islands becomes a clump of islands, yes, which there's 141 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: some there. You actually you shared a wonderful map here 142 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: that that that demonstrates this, and it's really it's really 143 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: quite impressive because you can see it making a huge 144 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 1: amount of difference, uh, is you're traveling, you know, between 145 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: these these islands, uh potentially even charting some of these 146 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: these more distant journeys. That's right. So if you're looking 147 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: at it from a map that includes expanded target landfall 148 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: as sort of a black circle around the island, what 149 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: would have been a smattering of of little tiny dots 150 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: instead turns into a big clump of black circles that 151 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: they're all overlapping each other. So this really does help 152 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,439 Speaker 1: with the problem. But of course you you could easily 153 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,959 Speaker 1: once again pass between these islands without actually being able 154 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: to see them visually. So you need to be able 155 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: to know what to look for. And again one of 156 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: the things that stressed, especially in we the navigators, is 157 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: that the degree of what they call screening the screening 158 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: of islands rather than individual island targets. So you would 159 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: aim for a screen like a line of islands that 160 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 1: are all overlapping within land finding range of one another. 161 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: That the the degree of screening of an island or 162 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: island group target was the number one safety concern when 163 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: making a journey there, So more screening more overlapping of 164 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: the expanded targets is safer, and less screening where there 165 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: are gaps between the expanded targets is much more dangerous 166 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: because again of the danger of unknowingly passing your target. 167 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: But I guess we should talk about what are the 168 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 1: actual landfall signs? What are the environmental signs that can 169 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 1: be used to detect a land from a long distance away. 170 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: I guess we should start with the one that is 171 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 1: the most obvious. Maybe this one doesn't actually need to 172 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: be said, but there are a couple of things about 173 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 1: it that are worth sorting out. Actually, So the most 174 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: obvious one is high ground. Right. In some cases your 175 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: target island is very tall and it can be seen 176 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:20,239 Speaker 1: from very far away. So, for example, Tahiti reaches elevations 177 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: of something like seventy feet and for this reason, the 178 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 1: land itself can sometimes be seen from as far as 179 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: eighty miles away. That that's a real good distance. And likewise, 180 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 1: Hawaii that can be seen from extremely far away. It 181 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: contains volcanoes, and rising land mass that sometimes up up 182 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: to like thirteen thousand feet, but not every island is 183 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: tall like this. Many Pacific islands lie more or less 184 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: at sea level, with nothing much taller than the height 185 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: of a palm tree, and you can easily miss these. 186 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 1: Standard navigational lore holds that on these low islands, visibility 187 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: is about ten miles, given the presence of coconut palms, 188 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: which grow to about of any five feet high, so 189 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: at about ten miles you should be able to see 190 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: the tallest of the coconut palms. It's interesting. I was 191 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: reading about about this and it reminded me of our 192 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: episode on on the Font of Morgana, where we talked 193 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: about mirages and about how in some cases there were 194 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: islands that we even put on maps that turned out 195 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,199 Speaker 1: to not be real. They were based on on mirrages. 196 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: And the reverse of that is also true. There are 197 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: islands that um certainly as as European powers were coming 198 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: into play and trying to map everything out, there were 199 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: islands that were that were known to be to exist 200 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: by by the natives, but various Europeans would would have 201 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: would decide, well, this was probably a mirage. We don't have. 202 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 1: We don't know exactly where it is, but it would 203 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: turn out it was actually there. Yeah, and it's funny 204 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: you should bring up the Fedamorghana episode because this land 205 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 1: finding technique is way down the list in terms of 206 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: of how commonly it was used in the level of 207 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: priori it's given. But one of the things mentioned in 208 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: this book is that land loom, the optical illusion of 209 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: being able to see the land in a in a 210 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: superior mirage projected up above the horizon, even though the 211 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: land is not visible itself from where you are. This 212 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: actually was sometimes used by some Pacific Island navigators, specifically 213 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: Lewis Sites navigators from the Gilbert's using this one. But 214 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: coming back to the idea of vantage points and high ground, 215 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: there is actually a pretty reliable mathematical equation you can 216 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: use for determining the visibility of an object over the 217 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: horizon at sea uh and and it goes like this, 218 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: So you take the square root of the height of 219 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: the object you're looking for in feet and and so 220 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 1: this is this method will be unit dependent, but the 221 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: square root of the height of the object and feet 222 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: so that could be a you know, a seventy five 223 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: foot tall palm tree, or it could be a mountaintop 224 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: or a lighthouse, whatever that is. And then you add 225 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: that to the square route of the observer's height, so 226 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: that would also be in feet. If you're you know, 227 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: if your eyes are five feet above the water, that's 228 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: five feet, or if you're sitting down in a low canoe, 229 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: it's probably even lower. And then you you add those 230 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: together and then you multiply by I've seen different numbers. 231 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: Actually I found a navigational website that suggested multiplying that 232 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: number by one point one seven. Lewis gives gives the 233 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 1: idea to multiply by one point one five. But whichever 234 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: way you do, you'll probably get pretty close to the 235 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: same answer, and this will give you the distance away 236 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: in miles that an object can usually be seen over 237 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: the horizon. But that made me think about the height 238 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: of the observer, which makes me wonder about the land 239 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:48,439 Speaker 1: finding virtues of different watercraft, right, because they're obviously different 240 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: kinds of watercraft. People make these journeys and sometimes there 241 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: in they could be in outrigger canoes or they could 242 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: be in a double hulled traditional navigational vessel that would 243 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: have a much more raised form in the middle with 244 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: even a cabin that I guess you could technically get 245 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: on top of. I don't know how, I don't know 246 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,439 Speaker 1: what all of the techniques with with ancient Pacific watercraft 247 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 1: would be for getting higher up as a vantage point. 248 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:13,679 Speaker 1: But that seems like that that could give you an 249 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: advantage as well, right, because of course they would not 250 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: have the advantage that that you would have with agin 251 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: a crow's nest lookout in a in a western sailing vessel, 252 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: like you know, a large scale ocean voyaging ship. That's right. 253 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: But uh, fortunately, these these specific navigators had lots of 254 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: other environmental cues they could look for. And these cues 255 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: are very important because even with taller islands, so even 256 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: if you're trying to get, you know, to a place 257 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: that's mountainous, you're trying to get to Tahiti or Hawaii 258 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: or something, environmental conditions can render these less visible. So 259 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: Louis gives the example of mountains, the mountains of Mangareva 260 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: and truck which should be visible based on their height 261 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: from like forty five miles away, but he says that 262 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: in his case, when he was once approaching in in 263 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: the boat, they were unable to see the peaks of 264 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: these islands because of overcast, and so their first visual 265 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: sighting was actually of the surrounding barrier reef rather than 266 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: of the island itself. Now, as we go on to 267 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: discuss more of these land finding techniques, it's important to 268 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: note that they vary in both directions, meaning that the 269 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: land finding techniques very in preference of individual navigators and 270 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: navigator cultures and in availability at target. So there are 271 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: some like, uh, there's some traditions of land finding lore 272 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: that place more emphasis on one or the other. But 273 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: also you need to have the backup knowledge because you're 274 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: not always going to be able to find all of 275 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: these when you look for them. Yeah, again, this is 276 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: a suite of tools that one that a navigator would use. 277 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: This is a toolbox of different techniques, and you're not 278 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: gonna want to depend on just one of them. Now, 279 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 1: you're gonna use several of them, and some of them 280 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: are gonna better than others. But when used in congress, 281 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: you can get the train navigator can get really positive results. Now, 282 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: there's one thing that Lewis mentions in this book which 283 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: I thought was interesting, which is a sort of counter 284 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: example to uh. The thing we've talked about a couple 285 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: a couple of times, which is that he says, you know, 286 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: none of the navigators he spoke to or traveled with 287 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: ever ever appealed to the idea of a sixth sense. 288 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 1: Right you were mentioning this earlier, it's not just intuition 289 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: about being at sea. When they were making navigational decisions, 290 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: they could always point to specific markers. They could say 291 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: the reason I'm going this way is because of this. 292 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: It's something that was in the environment that could be 293 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: pointed out and understood. So it wasn't just a gut feeling. 294 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 1: But one place in which he does say intuition seemed 295 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: to come in was in the calculus of how much 296 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: to wait different types of observations of of land finding signs. 297 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: So navigators might get close to an island and you'd 298 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: see one kind of sign and then another one, and 299 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: they'd be trying to decide which way to go based 300 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: on maybe different conflicting signals, or or what what the 301 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 1: sort of sum total or average of the evidence was. 302 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 1: And that did seem to be more based on a 303 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 1: gut feeling after surveying all the evidence available to them. 304 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: So I thought that was an interesting counterpoint. Thank thank 305 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: thank so. The first big sign to mension, I think 306 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 1: would be birds. Uh. There's actually a part where where 307 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: Lewis sites a navigator named Tita who says that who 308 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: is quoted at length on this. He says birds are 309 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 1: the navigator's very best friends. Birds are useful up to 310 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:40,959 Speaker 1: twice the site range of an island from a canoe. 311 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 1: And he also says the site range of land is 312 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 1: about ten miles and that of birds twenty. The birds 313 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 1: which are the most significant are turns and noddies. Yeah, 314 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: I've read that. Yeah. A lot of it comes down 315 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: to familiarity with bird species. It's not just, of course 316 00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:00,360 Speaker 1: birds in general, but specific knowledge of how are out 317 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:04,200 Speaker 1: to see a particular bird species will typically go So 318 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: if it's a if it's a sea bird, for instance, 319 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: the distance could be somewhere in the neighborhood of a 320 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: hundred kilometers, which is about sixty two point one miles. Um. 321 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 1: You know, again, it's just going to depend on the 322 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: exact variety of bird, uh, while other varieties of bird 323 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 1: are going to stay much closer to land. That's right. 324 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: So yeah, you need to look not just for birds 325 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: in general, but for specific species of birds, because there are, 326 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,919 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, pelagic species like petrolls and sheer waters 327 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: that will just not lead you to land with any reliability. 328 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: If you follow them, you may end up cruising out 329 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,679 Speaker 1: into the deep and not coming back. But once you 330 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 1: get within about thirty to fifty miles of shore, you 331 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: will start to see some familiar species that are somewhat reliable. 332 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 1: So first of all, you'll see booby birds uh and 333 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: sometimes predatory frigate birds. At this distance of thirty to 334 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: fifty miles, and then even closer, within about twenty to 335 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: twenty five miles of the nearest a toll, you will 336 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: get what what Louis says are quote mixed flocks of 337 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: white turns and noddies that will be encountered busily searching 338 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:16,479 Speaker 1: for fish. And once again, they show no more interest 339 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,719 Speaker 1: in directing the wayfarer than a busy New York policeman. 340 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 1: Uh So, so there's some further deduction you have to do. 341 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 1: It's not just like you see the birds and then 342 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 1: you immediately know what's up. If you see booby birds, 343 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: frigate birds, turns and naughties, you know you're close, but 344 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 1: you can't really use their flight paths and behavior throughout 345 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: the daytime to know which direction land lies. So what 346 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,959 Speaker 1: do you do. Well, you have to use time of day. 347 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,120 Speaker 1: These species roost on land and they have to return 348 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: to solid ground daily, and so the time of day 349 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 1: tells you a lot. They typically fly out to their 350 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,479 Speaker 1: fishing shoals from land in the early morning, and then 351 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: they return to land in the evening. So to read 352 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: a passage from from Louis here he writes quote towards evening, 353 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: the frigate birds, for example, will be seen to abandon 354 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: their leisurely patrolling, climb even higher, and set off in 355 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 1: one direction, probably homing by sight. About the same time, 356 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 1: the boobies will tire of their inquisitive inspections and fly 357 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,479 Speaker 1: low and arrows straight for the horizon. As the noddies depart, 358 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,360 Speaker 1: they will weave slightly in and out between the crests 359 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 1: of larger waves, while the turns will be flying a 360 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 1: little above them, but all will be following a very 361 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: exact path towards their home island. So once you are 362 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: within range of land, and you've gotten there again by 363 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: the process of of of open sea navigation, often by 364 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: the stars, and uh, and then these backup methods together 365 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 1: with dead reckoning, you get within range of the island, 366 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: you start to see certain bird species and you know 367 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,880 Speaker 1: which species to look for and what time of day 368 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: to follow them. And if you see the birds all 369 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: trending in the same direction around sundown, then you know. 370 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 1: There are also a few stories here and there about 371 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,439 Speaker 1: islands where some sea going birds have and domesticated, you know, 372 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 1: like fed and trained. But these stories seemed kind of 373 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 1: vague and uncertain, but it is at least an interesting 374 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 1: possibility to consider, whether there's much to it or not. 375 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: Like what if an island culture could essentially train frigate 376 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: birds to be the walmart greeters of the island. Yeah, yeah, 377 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 1: and almost like living lighthouses in some respects. Yeah, because 378 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: the behavior of birds can factor and apart from just uh, 379 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: you know, flying back like booby, birds are considered useful 380 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 1: in that they will not only fly towards land at 381 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: the close of day, they will often take an active 382 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: interest in approaching boats and they will try to land 383 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 1: on them, like land on the rigging or something, before 384 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 1: eventually flying off toward home in the evening. Now, I 385 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 1: know a lot of you out there probably watched The 386 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: Simpsons or have watched The Simpsons in the past, and 387 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: you're probably thinking about the scene in the episode Boy 388 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: Scouts in the Hood. Uh uh, this is the the 389 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: episode and what let's see. I'm trying to remember exactly 390 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 1: how it went. And did they get lost at sea? Well, 391 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: first they get lost at her which then results and 392 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: then being lost at sea and they're trying to get 393 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: back to land and then what do they see in 394 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: the sky? They see a seagull. Is this the one 395 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,239 Speaker 1: that starts with Bart wanting a knife but to get 396 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: a knife, Yeah, and he has to he has to 397 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: read the book don't do what Donny Don't does. But yeah, 398 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: it ends up with them doing a boy Scout river race, 399 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: and so they're lost at sea and what I don't 400 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: remember what happens with the seagull. I think Ned declare. 401 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: Ned is with them, and Ned looks up and he 402 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: sees that there's a seagull and he declares that they're saved. Um, 403 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: but then it is it is. Then it is brought 404 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 1: up that seagulls only go out to sea to die, 405 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: and then the seagull dies, so they're still lost. Uh. 406 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: Now I was thinking about this in connection with with 407 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 1: with some of these islands, particularly with the Hawaiian Islands. 408 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 1: And this is a fun fun fact of the various 409 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: species of seagulls out there, and there are many. Seagulls 410 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 1: are not one species, they're multiple. You'll find some of 411 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,640 Speaker 1: them in the Hawaiian Islands. But a great mini goals 412 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: cannot survive in Hawaii because the islands lack the sort 413 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: of shallow coastal scavenging waters that one finds in continental settings. 414 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: Some of these goals do wind up in Hawaii, but 415 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 1: only to starve to death because they do not have 416 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: the environment they need to survive. Well, that actually ties 417 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 1: into the next thing I wanted to mention, which is 418 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,719 Speaker 1: that everything we've talked about so far is in the 419 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: context of land finding by way of local birds in 420 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: a near radius to an island, you know they live 421 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: on the island, and once you see them, you know 422 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: you're near the island. You can follow them home. But 423 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 1: there's another use of bird navigation entirely, which is the 424 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: possibility that some ancient Pacific islanders deduced the presence of 425 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 1: previously unknown islands by observing the migratory patterns of land birds. 426 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: Stories like this exist in some island sailor lore, so 427 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: it seems quite reasonable to assume that that some islands 428 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,360 Speaker 1: were indeed discovered this way. But ultimately it's it's historical 429 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: speculation and we don't know for sure, but that that 430 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: does seemed like a very plausible guess as to how 431 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: some of these islands were found when they had never 432 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: been seen by humans before. I should also add that 433 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 1: above the various birds you could site that would give 434 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 1: you an indication that you were near land, the Dodo 435 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: the absolute best. Once you've once you've spotted the Dodo, 436 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: you're good to go. But by the way, if you 437 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 1: find yourself in Hawaii, if you find yourself on the 438 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: island of Oahu, I highly recommend going to the Bishop 439 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: Museum there. Um it is. It is a wonderful museum 440 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 1: that covers so much about Polynesian culture and uh in 441 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: Hawaiian history, and it covers some of what we're talking 442 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: about here. There there there's stuff about the canoes that 443 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 1: were used, uh the navigational techniques that were used, and 444 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 1: and so forth. So I'm sure the Bishop Museum will 445 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: come up again, but I highly recommend it you if 446 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: you if you visit the islands, you you kind of 447 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 1: owe it to yourself to go to the Bishop Museum. 448 00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,880 Speaker 1: All right, So we've talked about high ground, we've talked 449 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 1: about birds. What's next. Okay? The next one is is 450 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 1: fascinating to me and and it is the use of 451 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 1: clouds to find nearby land. So you might think, well, 452 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: how could you use that? I mean, there are clouds 453 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 1: over the open ocean. What what would clouds tell you? 454 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: But it turns out they can tell you quite a lot. There. 455 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:23,679 Speaker 1: There is this tradition among Pacific navigators of looking for 456 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 1: your target by what's known as land clouds, patterns of 457 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: cloud formations that are consistent with the presence of land 458 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: rather than open water. So how would clouds appearing over 459 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: an island be any different than clouds appearing anywhere else. Well, well, 460 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 1: they're actually a number of signs that are used. So 461 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 1: navigators claim first of all, that clouds move more quickly 462 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,959 Speaker 1: over open water and more slowly over land, almost as 463 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: if they appear to become stuck over islands that are 464 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: hidden beyond the horizon. But there are also a number 465 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:01,439 Speaker 1: of difficult to describe characteristics that that these navigators look for. 466 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: Having to do with the formation, appearance, and behavior of 467 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,400 Speaker 1: clouds over dry land, and one example is the the 468 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:13,880 Speaker 1: telltale shapes, specifically the eyebrows and the V shape. Both 469 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: of these are referred to, for example, by a navigator 470 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,479 Speaker 1: named Aberra, that is that was extensively interviewed by by 471 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: David Lewis in his book, and so according to the 472 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:28,640 Speaker 1: navigational lore of Aberra, uh the eyebrows meaning these I mean, 473 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,479 Speaker 1: I guess I can't describe them any better than that. 474 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 1: Clouds that look like eyebrows appear in the sky over 475 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: where an island would be. So if they are eyebrows, 476 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,199 Speaker 1: you'd imagine the island down below the horizon is sort 477 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 1: of where the noses or maybe where the lips are, 478 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: so it's between the two eyebrows. And these eyebrow looking 479 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: clouds are more common when the weather is calm and 480 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: there are no other clouds, whereas a different formation, known 481 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: as the V shape the V shaped column is present 482 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 1: over islands when there is wind and when there are 483 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,199 Speaker 1: other clouds, and the V shape basically the vertex of 484 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,159 Speaker 1: it at the bottom points down to where the island is. 485 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: But even more fascinating than that, to me is that experience. 486 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: Navigators mentioned that there are cues rooted in the color 487 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 1: of clouds. Clouds hovering over an island below the horizon 488 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: will tend to have different colors and levels of brightness 489 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: than clouds floating over the ocean, and apparently a lot 490 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: of this has to do with the actual reflection of 491 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:33,880 Speaker 1: the colors of the land lying below the cloud. It's amazing. Yeah, yeah, 492 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 1: this is really neat. I was reading about this specifically 493 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:42,360 Speaker 1: as it concerns lagoons. Lagoons being shallow bodies of water, uh, 494 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 1: the open ocean being deep water, and therefore the lagoon 495 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: water as reflected in the cloud, will be a lighter 496 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: shade of blue. Um so, so yeah, that's so. You know, 497 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,120 Speaker 1: it's not like a mirror. You're not gonna be like, oh, look, 498 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 1: I can see the reflection of the entire island to 499 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: which we are going. No, but to the arained ie 500 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: you would be able to see the difference in the color, 501 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: like there's a lighter blue reflected in the clouds, that 502 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: that must be the blue of the lagoons on the island. 503 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: Though I should of course also stressed this, like a 504 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: lot of the things we're discussing here we should add 505 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,679 Speaker 1: the caveat under the right conditions exactly, So none of 506 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: these signs we're talking about are always observable. Uh And 507 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: and Lewis stresses this a lot that it requires consistent, 508 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: focused attention in looking for all of the available cues 509 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: that you know about. So looking for a few minutes 510 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: you are quite likely to see nothing to get no cues. 511 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: But if an experience navigator pays close attention for several hours, 512 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: usually at least one type of land sign will manifest. Yeah, 513 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: And just to get a sense of what the the 514 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,719 Speaker 1: the effects of reflected color from land on the clouds 515 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: would be, like, I want to read a section from 516 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: Lewis here where he describes some examples. So uh, he says, 517 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: quote the colors that begin to appear closer to land 518 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 1: very with the makeup of the island. There are three 519 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: kinds of island with core responding clouds. Tita says. Above 520 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: lagoon islands, the cloud roof tends to be greenish. Over 521 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: extensive areas of white sand or surf, the cloud or 522 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: a portion of it will be brighter, more white than 523 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: the rest. The clouds above a wooded green island will 524 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: be darker than their neighbors. Abera referred to a pink 525 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: tinge over reefs and green above lagoons. Re We likewise 526 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: said that lagoon islands reflect green, and ones without lagoons 527 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: a reddish color. Islands with no lagoons, like Couria said Yotibata, 528 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: reflect a dark color that must be distinguished from rain cloud, 529 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: which appears very similar. Islands with big stretches of dry 530 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: reef or mangroves have bright colored clouds above them. And 531 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: then he mentions that given the fact that all of 532 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: the stuff he's just been saying comes from different interviews 533 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: with different navigators from different islands, and with four separate 534 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: interpreters transcribing what they were saying, Uh, the fact that 535 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: they're so consistent in what they say about the colors 536 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: reflected in the clouds is pretty amazing. Now, there's another 537 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: very important thing that I'm not going to spend a 538 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: lot of time on, just because we discussed it somewhat 539 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: in our previous episode and now in the last episode, 540 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: we talked about feeling for swells in the sea as 541 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: a way of direction finding, but also a navigator can 542 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: feel for the reflection refraction and interference with swells with 543 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: no notion swells to detect that land is nearby. And 544 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: Lewis goes into deep detail on this practice in his book, 545 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: But essentially, it's it's a similar to feeling to direction 546 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: finding with the help of swells, except feeling for interruptions 547 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: and swells and reflections of swells from known land masses. 548 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: But there's one last thing I wanted to talk about 549 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: here that is really interesting and almost kind of creepy, 550 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: especially because it is to some degree still mysterious, though 551 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: there there's some ideas about what it might be. Uh. 552 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: So we've talked, you know, at length before about bioluminescence 553 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: in the ocean. You know, a kind of that is 554 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: a regular, profuse light in the water from organisms like 555 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: bioluminescent plankton and uh and Lewis recounts in the book 556 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: that some navigators say that bioluminescence in the water just 557 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 1: doesn't tell you much useful. Other sources seem to think 558 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: it increases when near near land or a reef. But 559 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: in any case, it's important to distinguish regular bioluminescence in 560 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: the water from this next land sign, which is fascinating 561 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 1: and It's what David Lewis calls deep phosphorescence, but it 562 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 1: is also known as ta lapa spelled t E space 563 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: l a p A. The navigator Tevak calls this calls 564 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: it underwater lightning. It's also described by another navigator as 565 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: ulo a tahi or the glory of the seas. And 566 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: so I wanna read Lewis describing what this is' he's 567 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: just picking up after tevk has has called it underwater lightning, 568 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: which he thinks is an excellent analog g and Lewis 569 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: writes quote. It comprises streaks, flashes, and momentarily glowing plaques 570 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: of light all well beneath the surface, exactly like lightning. 571 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: It flickers and darts and is in constant motion. It 572 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 1: occurs a good deal deeper down than common luminescence, at 573 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: anything from a foot or two to more than a fathom. 574 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: All right, So that's already strange, because I, you know, 575 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 1: otherwise I'd never heard of anything like that anymore. Flashes 576 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: of light from deep under the water, almost like lightning. 577 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: But it gets even weirder. Apparently ta lapa seems to 578 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: flash from the direction of an island or a reef. 579 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: You can see it well into the deep sea when 580 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: you're eighty two a hundred miles away from land, But 581 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 1: as you approach the island, the flashes of light become 582 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 1: more and more rare, and then they disappear entirely as 583 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: you get really close. The distance from land or from 584 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: reefs also seems to affect how the light moves. They're 585 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,040 Speaker 1: slow flashes of light far out at sea, but in 586 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: about ten to twenty miles from land it starts to 587 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: take on a rapid, whipping back and forth movement. And uh. 588 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: And it's also generally understood that tai lapa coming from 589 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: reefs is slower moving than tei lapa coming from islands. 590 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 1: So this was amazing to me because I had never 591 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 1: heard of anything like this before. Yeah. Yeah, this is 592 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: definitely new to me as well. Um and it is 593 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 1: mysterious sound and the idea of underwater bioluminescent lightning being 594 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 1: some sort of guide again, like all of these things, 595 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: not the primary guide, but some additional tool that you 596 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: could turn to. Right. Well, one thing I want to 597 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: note what you said, it's the tai lapa is bioluminescent, 598 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: which it may well might be, but it might be 599 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: some other kind of luminescence as well. It's still there's 600 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: still some question about what causes it, and we'll discuss 601 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: that more in a minute. But uh, but yeah, I 602 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 1: think it's not a given that it's necessarily bioluminescent, like 603 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 1: the you know, the like the general sort of ambient 604 00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: glow that you see in the upper area of the sea, 605 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 1: that's no owned to be bioluminescent. But it's important that 606 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: what you say that this is very much a backup 607 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: method and it's not known to everyone. So Lewis documented 608 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,399 Speaker 1: references to it in the navigational lore from two Polynesian 609 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: areas and one Micronesian area, but there were plenty of 610 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 1: other navigators who didn't seem to know anything about Taylapa, 611 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 1: like they had never even heard of this concept. Yeah. 612 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 1: One of the people, the more recent people that we 613 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: were looking at concerning this topic is a Harvard physicist 614 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: by the name of John huth Um And uh, and 615 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: he points out that, Yeah, in some cultures you just 616 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 1: see no mention of it, the Marshall Islands being one 617 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: that he specifically mentions where they just didn't didn't have 618 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 1: the concept and and it's unknown exactly why is it 619 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: an environmental reason? Like whatever this phenomena is, it's not 620 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 1: it wasn't present, uh, you know around the Marshall Islands 621 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 1: or islands that were of interest to these navigators, or 622 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: is it a situation where for this particular culture they 623 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 1: found that this was not a reliable navigational tool and 624 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 1: it just wasn't worth keeping around, Like it's not one 625 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 1: you can lean heavily on, and it would always be 626 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: just kind of like a second or third tier backup. Anyway, 627 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 1: it remained a mystery. Yeah, yeah, So some islanders explained 628 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 1: that as this backup method of navigation, they could use 629 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,240 Speaker 1: te Lapa to steer on dark, rainy nights. So maybe 630 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 1: you can't see the stars, you can perhaps see these 631 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 1: flashes of underwater lightning. And Louis actually documents that he 632 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 1: himself observed it. There was one night when it was 633 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 1: late at night and it was dark and he was 634 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: sailing with Tevak. This was on the thirty one of December, 635 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 1: he writes, quote land Lapa was seen to be darting 636 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,319 Speaker 1: to and fro along two distinct bearings, which were both 637 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 1: plain enough for me to see despite the clear night 638 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: and the comparative nearness of the islands. One series kept 639 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: flashing from a direction which tevk averred was that of 640 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,400 Speaker 1: the volcano Tina Coola. The other he said it was 641 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 1: from the island of Nadeni. Morning revealed the high islands 642 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: of Tina Coola and Nadini, each about twenty miles away 643 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 1: and respectively west and south of our position. These were 644 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 1: the directions that the old navigator had indicated. So in 645 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 1: this experience, he says, yep I saw it. Tek told 646 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 1: me it was there. I looked and I saw it, 647 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: and it was in the directions of the islands, just 648 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 1: like he said it would be. And so Louis did 649 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 1: believe he was the first person to document this navigational 650 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:31,839 Speaker 1: sign in print. Of course, it was known before him 651 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:33,920 Speaker 1: to to the people who possessed it as part of 652 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: their navigational lore. But he believed that this phenomenon had 653 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 1: no European definition and uh. And of course, again not 654 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 1: all navigators in the Pacific Islands were aware of Talapa, 655 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 1: but some were from at least three distinct regions that 656 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 1: he that he interviewed navigators from. And it was interpreted 657 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 1: and it turned out to provide accurate information. So what 658 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 1: was it? What's causing these flashes of light underneath the 659 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,800 Speaker 1: or from the direction of islands or reefs, Lewis ultimately 660 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: says in the book. And then again, this was in 661 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: seventy two, so we may have developed some knowledge since then. 662 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 1: But Lewis said he really didn't know what it was, 663 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 1: and he guessed that it may have had something to 664 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 1: do with deep swell movement, maybe a kind of deep 665 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 1: reflection of waves from islands or reefs. But that leaves 666 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: a lot of lingering questions. Why why if it's bouncing 667 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: off of these islands or reefs, why could it be 668 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 1: seen at such great distances from land, albeit moving more slowly. 669 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 1: And one thing that I that I found so I 670 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,879 Speaker 1: was reading a Harvard Gazette article about the work of 671 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: that physicist you mentioned John Huth, who had done some 672 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:43,280 Speaker 1: follow up work on this, and uh. This Gazette article 673 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,760 Speaker 1: mentioned that many scholars disputed Lewis's reports of the Talapa quote. 674 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: The lights were initially dismissed as fantasy when other researchers 675 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,840 Speaker 1: reported that they were unable to see them. Some critics 676 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,440 Speaker 1: who said thought that pursuing quote underwater lightning was akin 677 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: to chasing the abominable no Man. Yeah. John Huth seems 678 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 1: to have done a fair amount of work dealing with 679 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: with Ti Lapa and one when the source that I 680 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 1: was a reading was the article Conclusions a cross Disciplinary 681 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 1: Journey through Spatial Orientation by who, published in the journal 682 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,760 Speaker 1: Structure and Dynamics in sixteen, and in this he points 683 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: out that there is still no definitive explanation for the 684 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: origin of Ti Lapa, But one possibility that that he 685 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,759 Speaker 1: seems so like, is that it's a byproduct of fish 686 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,720 Speaker 1: darting in a patch of sea rich with uh dino 687 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,800 Speaker 1: of flagelets which emit light in response to the stimuli 688 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,000 Speaker 1: of pressure waves. But even if that is the case, 689 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 1: he says, then it still leaves a mystery of the 690 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,719 Speaker 1: directionality of the fish movements themselves. You know why and 691 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 1: how can we navigate by this information? Right? What if 692 00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 1: that's the explanation, why would it point to islands in 693 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 1: a reliable way? Right? And uh? One of the challenges 694 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 1: and researching is uh, Hooth points out, is just the 695 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: difficulty of rooper reproducing sightings. We need further studies which 696 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:09,840 Speaker 1: require both sensitive equipment and dependable sightings of the phenomena. 697 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 1: Um and and again he pointed to the fact that 698 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 1: you don't actually see it as a navigational aid in 699 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: some cultures, uh, such as the Marshall Islands, raising questions 700 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 1: of you know, is this cultural? Is it environmental? And 701 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 1: it's simply unknown. Um uh so yeah, it's it's it's 702 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 1: really fascinating. And again it it it. I think it 703 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 1: serves to just reminders als that, yeah, we're dealing with 704 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: a suite of different navigational techniques and and if if 705 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,880 Speaker 1: this is among the tools at your disposal, then you know, 706 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 1: perhaps it is useful in in deciding like fine tuning 707 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:50,759 Speaker 1: your your your directional approach. But perhaps for some of 708 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: some cultures they abandon it because it did not seem 709 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 1: useful enough. We just don't know. I mean, I'm pretty 710 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,880 Speaker 1: convinced that people are actually observing this, that it's not 711 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 1: just a fantasy. And I mean not only because it 712 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: is part of the navigational lore and seems to have 713 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 1: been used as this backup method of direction finding, but 714 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,400 Speaker 1: also because I mean there are additional modern reports of 715 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 1: people saying, yeah, I actually did see it, even if 716 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,880 Speaker 1: I was not able to photograph it. For example, I 717 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 1: found an article by a scholar named Marianne George who 718 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 1: is a cultural anthropologist who uh talks about this in 719 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,800 Speaker 1: an article called Polynesian Navigation and Ta Lapa the Flashing 720 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: published in Time and Mind, the Journal of Archaeology, Consciousness, 721 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: and Culture from and she also talks about having been 722 00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 1: able to eventually witness it herself out on the ocean. 723 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:40,839 Speaker 1: But I don't think you can find video of it. 724 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 1: I don't think anybody has ever captured it like that, 725 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:52,440 Speaker 1: so it's still a very interesting question than now. One 726 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:56,160 Speaker 1: of the really interesting things concerning all of this again 727 00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,719 Speaker 1: is the idea that in modern times, reach researchers have 728 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 1: had to to fit a lot of this back together, 729 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:06,280 Speaker 1: you know, depending on genetics and linguistics and lural histories, etcetera, 730 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:11,400 Speaker 1: all these various disciplines and as discussed in multiple places, 731 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: but specifically, you see this discussed at the Bishop Museum, 732 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,839 Speaker 1: both the physical museum and the online presence. You also 733 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: see it discussed at at the website for Hokuleau. That's 734 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:26,239 Speaker 1: how that's um at HOCA dot com. That is h 735 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 1: O k u l e uh pus v A. Is 736 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 1: that you saw something rather interesting concerning deep sea voyages 737 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,400 Speaker 1: in Hawaiian culture, and I believe I mentioned this is 738 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 1: one of the previous episodes, and that is that deep 739 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 1: sea voyages in Hawaii had been extinct for several hundred years. UH. 740 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,439 Speaker 1: This was before contact with Europeans. The period of long 741 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 1: voyages ended along with all contact with other Polynesian islands, 742 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,719 Speaker 1: and they lived in near complete isolation until seventeen seventy eight. 743 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 1: Now there remained memories of the the age of long 744 00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,080 Speaker 1: voyages and stories of their origins, of of the in 745 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:04,320 Speaker 1: the Hawaiian people, um and the waves of migration from Tahiti, 746 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,520 Speaker 1: which is two thousand five miles away, But again, the 747 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,760 Speaker 1: exact art of deep sea voyages had not been practiced 748 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:15,080 Speaker 1: for quite some time. Meanwhile, some Europeans formed their own 749 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,359 Speaker 1: ideas about how humans could have possibly made it out 750 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,600 Speaker 1: to such far flung islands. We mentioned this uh in 751 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,040 Speaker 1: passing you know, the idea that it was surely, surely 752 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 1: by accident that these ancient sailors made their way to 753 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 1: these various islands. Right, the idea that new islands would 754 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 1: have always been discovered and initially colonized by people who 755 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 1: got lost or you know, blown away in storms. Random 756 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:39,279 Speaker 1: drifts basically, and again modern scholarships has turned away from 757 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,359 Speaker 1: that idea that, of course there would probably be some 758 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: cases of islands being discovered by accident, but also a 759 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,560 Speaker 1: lot of cases of deliberate exploratory ventures. Now there are 760 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,799 Speaker 1: also some outliers, such as thor hair Dolls hypothesis that 761 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,360 Speaker 1: South American sailors made the voyage. Uh He famously tried 762 00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 1: and failed to prove this, But yeah, the predominant theory 763 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:00,719 Speaker 1: for a long time with that polina Jian sailors just 764 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:02,759 Speaker 1: simply didn't have the skill to make the journey and 765 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 1: they either rode the wind currents and or were blown 766 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,920 Speaker 1: off course and arrived at the Hawaiian Islands by accident. 767 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,920 Speaker 1: But then in nineteen seventy three, the Polynesian Voyaging Society 768 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:17,240 Speaker 1: formed to challenge this theory. Uh Dr Ben of Finny 769 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,720 Speaker 1: Herb Collinui Kane and Tommy Holmes aimed to put together 770 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,920 Speaker 1: a team to build a traditional deep sea voyaging Hawaiian 771 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:29,319 Speaker 1: canoe and sail it from the Hawaiian Islands to Tahiti. Now, 772 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:31,520 Speaker 1: one of the challenging parts in all this was simply 773 00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:35,040 Speaker 1: finding a traditional sailing master. Again, especially when you're dealing 774 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,440 Speaker 1: with Hawaiian culture. This is this is something of a 775 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 1: forgotten science at the uh SO it had not been 776 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,440 Speaker 1: practiced in a while. So they ended up going with 777 00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:47,520 Speaker 1: a particular individual by the name of of moult Pie 778 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,839 Speaker 1: long Um who lived ninety two through two thousand ten, 779 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,920 Speaker 1: a man from the Micronesian island of Sodawall. He'd been 780 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,960 Speaker 1: trained from an early age and the traditional techniques of 781 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,560 Speaker 1: of navigation environmental navigation, and he proved an essential part 782 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,400 Speaker 1: of this whole experiment and is still remembered as a 783 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:10,000 Speaker 1: major figure both in the academic exploration of of Hawaiian history, 784 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:14,040 Speaker 1: Polynesian history, uh and and Oceanic culture, but also just 785 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,120 Speaker 1: a sort of something of a cultural hero as well. 786 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,040 Speaker 1: So the story of of Hokalia is really fascinating and 787 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 1: they've been whole documentaries about it. They have a wonderful website. 788 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,880 Speaker 1: But essentially they build a sixty two ft long, nineteen 789 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:30,279 Speaker 1: foot wide, double hulled canoe or waakkula, and they called 790 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:34,440 Speaker 1: it um. They called the vessel um hoku Lea, named 791 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,799 Speaker 1: for an important navigational star. It's the star of Gladness, 792 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,560 Speaker 1: also known as our tourists and the brightest Star in 793 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,160 Speaker 1: the Boaties constellation. While the ship's construction also made use 794 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:48,200 Speaker 1: of plywood, fiberglass and resin uh and it was accompanied 795 00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:53,680 Speaker 1: by a modern vessel, um Hokala itself was completely unpowered, 796 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:57,560 Speaker 1: and even more importantly, navigation was attempted without the use 797 00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,480 Speaker 1: of any technology or devices, at least down the way 798 00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,400 Speaker 1: to Tahiti. Um for the return trip, they did use 799 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:06,680 Speaker 1: some instruments, uh, but they just yeah, they depended on 800 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:10,719 Speaker 1: the traditional navigation practices that maultpie Loon brought with him. 801 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 1: And so on May one six they set out from 802 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:18,520 Speaker 1: Honolula Bay on Maui and traveled thirty three days uh 803 00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:22,040 Speaker 1: to Papa Atta Harbor in Tahiti. And they also brought 804 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,680 Speaker 1: along with them livestock to study how these could be 805 00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,719 Speaker 1: cared for at sea, because as we mentioned, you know, 806 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:30,439 Speaker 1: canoe species were a key part of the equation. It's 807 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 1: not just could you could you voyage to this island 808 00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,319 Speaker 1: or these islands, but could you bring the species with 809 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,840 Speaker 1: you that you needed to survive? Yeah, And and it 810 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,520 Speaker 1: was a success. Again, they did use instruments on the 811 00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:44,800 Speaker 1: return trip, but at that point they had already proved 812 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,640 Speaker 1: what was possible and multiple voyages have been completed since 813 00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,680 Speaker 1: then to further prove all of this out. Now, an 814 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,399 Speaker 1: interesting wrinkle in all of this um is that during 815 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,279 Speaker 1: the nine nineties, the Bishop Museums Native Hawaiian Arts and 816 00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,920 Speaker 1: Culture Program, they set out to create an authentic verse 817 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,640 Speaker 1: of this sort of vessel using only traditional and native material, 818 00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:05,960 Speaker 1: so again, you know, not the fiberglass and so forth. 819 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:08,680 Speaker 1: But they said, let's build one like would have been 820 00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:13,840 Speaker 1: built historically. And they found that the native CoA trees 821 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,000 Speaker 1: of the islands were too small due to human activities, 822 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,960 Speaker 1: so they ultimately that they had to they had to 823 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:21,800 Speaker 1: go beyond the islands in order to get the wood 824 00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,880 Speaker 1: to build the canoe. They were ultimately gifted four hundred 825 00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:28,719 Speaker 1: year old spruce logs from a tribe in southeast Alaska 826 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:33,080 Speaker 1: and use those to construct the vessel. Yeah. So anyway, 827 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:38,680 Speaker 1: I I highly recommend looking into the Hoka Project, their website, 828 00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:42,400 Speaker 1: various documentaries about what they did and and and continue 829 00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,120 Speaker 1: to do. It is my understanding that the vessel is 830 00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:48,040 Speaker 1: still functional, still operational, and they still uh, they still 831 00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:50,239 Speaker 1: take it out. This whole series has been one of 832 00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,560 Speaker 1: those uh episodes on the show where I'm just amazed 833 00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,880 Speaker 1: because I uh this is something I knew absolutely nothing 834 00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,879 Speaker 1: about to start with. I would not have known the 835 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,480 Speaker 1: very first thing about like how you navigate on the 836 00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:05,239 Speaker 1: open sea without instruments. I mean to be honest, I 837 00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,240 Speaker 1: don't know how you do it with instruments either, but 838 00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,480 Speaker 1: but uh, but yeah, this is this has been so 839 00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:15,799 Speaker 1: eye opening, Uh, just thinking about like how much information 840 00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,600 Speaker 1: you can get from the environment if you know, if 841 00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:22,560 Speaker 1: you've when you build on the knowledge accumulated over generations, 842 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,560 Speaker 1: and you have the discipline and the attention to pay 843 00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:29,000 Speaker 1: attention to your surroundings with this level of care. Yeah, 844 00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,400 Speaker 1: as certainly as as a landsman, as Hermon and Melville 845 00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,440 Speaker 1: would put it, I am amazed by all this. But 846 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,279 Speaker 1: but I think it's also worth with pointing out that, 847 00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:38,759 Speaker 1: you know, we've touched on experienced sailors who have been 848 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:40,799 Speaker 1: very into this topic as well have been amazed by 849 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,359 Speaker 1: it as well. So uh, yeah, there's there's a lot 850 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,040 Speaker 1: to marvel at here. All right, Well, there you have it. 851 00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:49,800 Speaker 1: We hope you have enjoyed this journey, if we've enjoyed 852 00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,680 Speaker 1: a researching and discussing it, If you would like to 853 00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:54,600 Speaker 1: listen to other episodes of stuff to blow your mind, 854 00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:56,600 Speaker 1: you can find them in the Stuff to Blow Your 855 00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,280 Speaker 1: Mind podcast feed, which will good wherever you get your podcast. 856 00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:02,600 Speaker 1: Core episodes air on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We run a 857 00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:05,520 Speaker 1: short form artifact on Wednesday's listener mail on Monday's. On 858 00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:07,719 Speaker 1: Friday's we do Weird House Cinema. That's our time to 859 00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:10,040 Speaker 1: set aside the science and the culture for the most 860 00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:12,440 Speaker 1: part and talk about a weird picture. And then we 861 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,800 Speaker 1: have on the weekends a rerun. But yeah, just to 862 00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:17,839 Speaker 1: find us wherever you get your podcast. You can also 863 00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:19,160 Speaker 1: go to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com and 864 00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:21,480 Speaker 1: that will shoot you to the I Heart listing for 865 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,799 Speaker 1: our page wherever you go. If they give you the 866 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,720 Speaker 1: power to do so, just rate, review and subscribe. Huge 867 00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:30,400 Speaker 1: thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. 868 00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:32,279 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 869 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,880 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other to suggest 870 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,000 Speaker 1: topic for the future, just to say hello, you can 871 00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:39,680 Speaker 1: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 872 00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:49,680 Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of 873 00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:52,360 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio 874 00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,400 Speaker 1: usit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're 875 00:48:55,400 --> 00:49:11,960 Speaker 1: listening to your Favorite Shows by P four four FO