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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of four,

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Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger.

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Speaker 1: I'm a mother of two and soon to be three,

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Speaker 1: and a practicing physician. We are two working parents who

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Speaker 1: love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of

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Speaker 1: both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family,

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Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping

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Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get

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Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds.

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Speaker 1: This is Laura, and this is episode twenty one. We're

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Speaker 1: mostly talking New Year's resolutions today with our guest for

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Speaker 1: the main segment, Gretchen Rubin. We're very excited to have

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Speaker 1: her ons. We'll get to that in a minute, but first,

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Speaker 1: Sarah and I are both really into New Year's resolutions.

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Speaker 1: As we'll learn later talking with Gretchen, that is a

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Speaker 1: clearer sign of upholders, which we both are. Did you

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Speaker 1: set New Year's resolutions for twenty seventeen, Sarah, you're about

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Speaker 1: to tell me that you didn't. Well, Actually, I tend

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Speaker 1: to do monthly goals and habits, so I think it's almost.

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Speaker 1: It's not like I don't do yearly. It's like, no,

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Speaker 1: that's not even enough. That's for amateurs. So I've got

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Speaker 1: to do it twelve times a year. No, seriously. I

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Speaker 1: used to set like anywhere between ten and fifteen resolutions

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Speaker 1: per year, but I found myself losing track or then

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Speaker 1: sort of being sad in June if I had left

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Speaker 1: some behind. So I've found it actually works better for

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Speaker 1: me to select fewer but do sort of a reevaluation

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Speaker 1: on a monthly basis. And I also do separate my

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Speaker 1: goal resolutions, so maybe that would be like read three

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Speaker 1: books and my habit resolutions, which would be like spend

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Speaker 1: twenty minutes reading a day. So it's broken down. But

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Speaker 1: I love I love resolutions, and I love reading and

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Speaker 1: hearing about other people's resolutions. Tell me about yours. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so of course I make them, right. It would be

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Speaker 1: like sacrilege to write about productivity and not set resolutions,

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Speaker 1: although I make him in sort of a different way

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Speaker 1: like you. I guess I felt like yearly wasn't enough

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Speaker 1: or wasn't as granular as wanted to be, so I

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Speaker 1: a couple of years ago I started setting quarterly resolutions.

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Speaker 1: I got this great idea from a woman named Angela

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Speaker 1: Gia Kim, who some of our readers may have followed

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Speaker 1: the very savor of the success sort of stuff. She

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Speaker 1: owns a business called Savior the Success. But anyway, she

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Speaker 1: shared this idea of doing quarterly resolutions. I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: I really like that idea because ninety days is short

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Speaker 1: enough that you feel like you've done something at the

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Speaker 1: end of it. But it's also you know, you can

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Speaker 1: stretch your goals out through the year instead of saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to tackle all of them at New Year's

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Speaker 1: It's like, well, I can do you know, four different quarters,

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Speaker 1: like each one I have something to focus on. And then,

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Speaker 1: because I'm me, I decided to do three for each quarter.

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Speaker 1: One career goal, one relationship goal, one personal goal. And

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Speaker 1: so it's, uh, you know, it's twelve, just like you

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Speaker 1: with the monthly of resolutions, but just broken up in

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Speaker 1: a slightly different way. No, that's awesome. Oh I don't

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Speaker 1: just have twelve, I have like multiple per month. But

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Speaker 1: I like you. I like your system, and I actually

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Speaker 1: I agree with sort of like separating them, like I'll

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Speaker 1: have work ones which are very separate from my life ones.

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Speaker 1: And they're both really important to me. Best of both worlds. Hello,

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Speaker 1: but they definitely they don't overlap at all. Yeah, And so,

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Speaker 1: of your monthly habits and goals in twenty seventeen, do

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Speaker 1: you think you've hit most of them? I would say

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Speaker 1: I've hit maybe like sixty or seventy percent of them.

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Speaker 1: There are definitely some that have been elusive for me,

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Speaker 1: and some that I'll revisit each time. Like, you know,

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Speaker 1: we've talked about it in technology, but spending more time

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Speaker 1: than i'd like on my phone is like it keeps

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Speaker 1: kind of like it's perennial, Like I stamp it down

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Speaker 1: and it springs up again. And I will say, like

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Speaker 1: almost every year, I really focus on flossing, but then

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Speaker 1: I got pregnant, and I like could not floss while pregnant,

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Speaker 1: like those two things. Just so, the pregnancy did make

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Speaker 1: me a little bit less apt to keep some of

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Speaker 1: the resolutions I might have kept otherwise. But I think

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Speaker 1: I did pretty well. What about you? I did pretty

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Speaker 1: good this year. I've I've shifted a few of the goals,

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Speaker 1: so I feel like it's okay. You know, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: have to be exact in the sense of I'm flexible

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Speaker 1: about am I achieving sort of the same aims by

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Speaker 1: different means. And so, for instance, one of my goals

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Speaker 1: for Q one was to do speed work, and I

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Speaker 1: set a certain goal of doing a kind of speed

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Speaker 1: work in my running, and then I decided to set

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Speaker 1: this different goal of running every day and I kept

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Speaker 1: that and I feel like many of the same good

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Speaker 1: things happened by doing that that I would have done

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Speaker 1: through speed work. So I think that was okay, and

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Speaker 1: some I just went a little bit crazier on Like

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Speaker 1: I had a goal for Q three career to read

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Speaker 1: a book a week, just you know, as a writer,

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Speaker 1: it's good to read lots of other stuff, and I

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Speaker 1: was not reading as many books as I wanted to

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Speaker 1: be reading, and so I was like, oh, because that

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Speaker 1: the goal to read a book a week, and I

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Speaker 1: kind of blew through that. It's been a bit of

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Speaker 1: a crazy year on the on the reading front. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I did amazing on that front. So I guess pretty good.

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Speaker 1: And now I'm thinking about what I'm going to do

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Speaker 1: for twenty eighteen. Haven't I need to know? Is the

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Speaker 1: running streak going to stay a lot? You know? It's

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Speaker 1: it's funny because we're talking to mentioned we're talking to

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Speaker 1: Gretchen Rubin later in this episode, and she one of

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Speaker 1: the things she talks about with upholders is that we're

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Speaker 1: subject to this sort of tightening impulse. And I said,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to run every day for a year, and

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure at this point, I mean, you knock

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Speaker 1: on wood, I could get injured or something, but not

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Speaker 1: on what I probably will at this point because it

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Speaker 1: you know, we're nearing the end of the year. Well,

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Speaker 1: but then I'm like, well, I could just keep going, like, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to run every day for the rest of

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Speaker 1: my life. I don't know. Maybe I will. I probably won't.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the streak will end at some point, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: we'll see. So stay tuned. We'll report back in twenty

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Speaker 1: eighteen on how the running streak is going. So we

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Speaker 1: are so excited to welcome Gretchen Ruben to the program.

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Speaker 1: Gretchen is the host of the Happier Podcast, the author

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Speaker 1: of several best selling books, including The Happiness Project and

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Speaker 1: most recently, The Four Tendencies. She is also the mom

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Speaker 1: of two girls, including one who is now off at college.

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Speaker 1: I believe right now, So that's the other end of

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Speaker 1: the parenting spectrum. I'm Sarah and I right now Sarah

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Speaker 1: is expecting her third child in early December, so we

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Speaker 1: are we've got cradle to college here. But so we're

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Speaker 1: going to be talking mostly New Year's resolutions and the

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Speaker 1: Four Tendencies. We have a somewhat uncommon situation here in

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Speaker 1: that we have three upholders chatting. So so for the

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Speaker 1: half dozen listeners of ours who perhaps have not read

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Speaker 1: your books, can you tell everyone what an upholder is,

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Speaker 1: and you know, tell us briefly about the four attendancy. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: it's really unusual to have three upholders together. So this

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Speaker 1: is our heads are going to explode. So this this

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Speaker 1: has to do with this personality framework that I came

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Speaker 1: up with called the Four Tendencies, that divides the world

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Speaker 1: into four categories of people upholders, questioners, obligers, and rebels

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Speaker 1: according to how you meet an expectation. And we all

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Speaker 1: face two kinds of expectations, outer expectations like a work

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Speaker 1: deadline or a request from a friend, and we have

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Speaker 1: inner expectations our own desire to keep a New Year's resolution,

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Speaker 1: or our own desire to write a novel in our

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Speaker 1: free time. So upholders, which is what the three of

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Speaker 1: us are readily meet outer and inner expectations. We meet

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Speaker 1: the work deadline, we keep the New year's resolution without

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Speaker 1: that much of us. We want to know what others

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Speaker 1: expect from us, but expectations for ourselves are just as important.

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Speaker 1: Next questioners, Questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if

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Speaker 1: they think it makes sense, so in a way, they

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Speaker 1: make everything an inner expectation. If it meets their inner standard,

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Speaker 1: they will do it. If it fails their inner standard,

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Speaker 1: they will resist it. And typically they don't like anything arbitrary, inefficient, irrational.

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Speaker 1: Then there are obligers. Obligers readily meet out our expectations,

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Speaker 1: but they struggle to meet inter expect So this is

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Speaker 1: a friend of mine who told me, I don't understand it.

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Speaker 1: When I was in high school, I was on the

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Speaker 1: track team and I never missed track practice, So why

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Speaker 1: can't I go running now? Well, when she had a

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Speaker 1: team and a coach waiting for her, she had no

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Speaker 1: trouble going. But when she's just trying to go running

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Speaker 1: on her own, it's a struggle. And then finally, rebels.

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Speaker 1: Rebels resist all expectations. Out are and inner like they

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Speaker 1: want to do what they want to do in their

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Speaker 1: own way, in their own time. If you ask her

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Speaker 1: tell them to do something, they're very likely to resist.

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Speaker 1: And typically they don't even like to tell themselves what

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Speaker 1: to do. So and brief, those are the four. So

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Speaker 1: are upholder is actually rare? Yes, Well, the rest tendency

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Speaker 1: is the rebel tendency. It's a very conspicuous tendency, but

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Speaker 1: it's small, and upholders only slightly larger. So these are

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Speaker 1: the two kind of extreme personality types and they're small.

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Speaker 1: The biggest tendency for both men and women, the one

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Speaker 1: that the largest number of people belong to, is obliger

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Speaker 1: and after that questioner, So yeah, it's unusual that you

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Speaker 1: would have a group of three people where they'd all

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Speaker 1: be upholders. So interesting. I wonder if we're just more

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Speaker 1: inclined to make podcasts. I think beholders often are attracted.

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Speaker 1: They are good at achieving things and like and coming

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Speaker 1: up with processes and forming good habits, and they think, well,

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Speaker 1: this works for me, So if everybody will just do

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Speaker 1: what I do, it would work for me. And the

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Speaker 1: fact is they think it's because they have a good system,

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Speaker 1: but The thing is, any system works for an upholder,

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Speaker 1: and this is something they keep in mind. If you're

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Speaker 1: developing a curriculum, or you're managing a team, or you're

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Speaker 1: designing a device. Basically, anything is going to work with

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Speaker 1: an upholder, because they're good at that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: The question is, how do you get the other three

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Speaker 1: tendencies to come on board? Yeah, and there's some downsides

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Speaker 1: for the upholding tendency too. I thought, since we have

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Speaker 1: three upholders on the phone, they might all share one

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Speaker 1: of the craziest upholder things we ever did, which I'll

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Speaker 1: go first here because alert readers of the four tendencies

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Speaker 1: may have noticed an anonymous analyt. I actually saw that

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Speaker 1: in the book, and I didn't know it was you

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Speaker 1: until you tell this is crazy. Yeah, yeah, tell your story.

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Speaker 1: So it says an upholder friend told me. This is

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Speaker 1: Gretchen writing here, but it says on my way to

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Speaker 1: the hospital to give birth, I told my husband not

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Speaker 1: to speed, and I insisted that he park in the

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Speaker 1: correct lot, even though I wound up giving birth less

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Speaker 1: than twenty minutes after we pulled in, which is true.

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Speaker 1: That did happen, just as just as that Sarah You're

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Speaker 1: you're kind of a militant about your running schedule, aren't you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm real, I'm militant about my schedule in general, I

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Speaker 1: would say, but I would say my running. And I'm

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Speaker 1: not a streaker like you. But like that analogy that

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Speaker 1: Gretchen used is like the total opposite for me, Like

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Speaker 1: I am going to put it in no matter what,

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Speaker 1: and it annoys my friends and family around me, I'm sure,

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Speaker 1: but whatever just is what? And how about you, Gretcha

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Speaker 1: lack of hospit. I am one of these crazy low

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Speaker 1: car beaters and I really just won't eat things that

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Speaker 1: have sugar, flour, pasta, starchy vegetables, and you know, you

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Speaker 1: could bake me a birthday cake and hand deliver it

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Speaker 1: to me and I'm like, yeah, I don't eat that,

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Speaker 1: And to me, I get a lot of fun out

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Speaker 1: of just like sticking to it. Absolutely. But I think

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Speaker 1: our three anecdotes show something that's another aspect that it

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Speaker 1: can be a downside of being an a polter is

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Speaker 1: that we can sometimes seem cold to other people because

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Speaker 1: it's like, well, we've got company this weekend, what do

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Speaker 1: you mean you have to go for your run and

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Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, I got to go for my run

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Speaker 1: whether we have company or not. Or it's like, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't care that you handmade this banana bread. I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to eat it, you know. And it's like

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Speaker 1: to us that seems appropriate and like fulfilling our inner expectations,

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Speaker 1: but to other tendencies that can sometimes read as cold, yes,

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Speaker 1: ort crazy, yes, some flack about the fact that I

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Speaker 1: run every day, which means every day, yeah, not five,

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Speaker 1: it means every day. But anyway, that's so we're talking

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Speaker 1: New Year's resolutions today, and New Year's resolutions are one

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Speaker 1: of those classic upholder things because Gretchen and you're four

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Speaker 1: ten and see quiz, you actually ask about New Year's resolutions.

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Speaker 1: And that's one of the signs of an upholder, right,

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Speaker 1: And it's really a sign of all the tendencies, because

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Speaker 1: the question isn't do you keep them? It's how do

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Speaker 1: you feel about them? Because upholders typically will say like,

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Speaker 1: I like near's resolutions, and I make them, or I

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Speaker 1: might make them during the year, like they like them,

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Speaker 1: they're good at them. Questioners are will often like talk

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Speaker 1: about the arbitrariness of January. First, they're like, well, I

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Speaker 1: would keep a resolution when it made sense to me,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't wait for January first, because January first is

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Speaker 1: an arbitrary date, Like why would you wait? Well, that's

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Speaker 1: that is an inefficient thing, and it's an arbitrary date.

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Speaker 1: Obligers will often say, you know what, I don't make

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Speaker 1: Newyor's resolutions anymore because I've let myself down so many times.

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Speaker 1: I've made and made them and failed to keep them

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Speaker 1: so long. I don't even do it anymore. And rebels

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Speaker 1: they might do it if they thought it was fun.

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Speaker 1: A lot of times, rebels will like a challenge, so

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Speaker 1: they might do it as a challenge. But they also

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Speaker 1: might be like, well, why would I bind myself? I

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Speaker 1: don't know what I'm going to want to do. I

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Speaker 1: might not feel like running tomorrow, so I'm not gonna

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to resolve that I'm gonna run because

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Speaker 1: who knows what I'll feel like to me? So, Gretchen,

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Speaker 1: since New Year's resolutions are something that upholders tend to do,

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Speaker 1: I mean, do you make them? Did you make any

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Speaker 1: for twenty seventeen you've been working on this year? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: The thing is for the last like eight or nine years,

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Speaker 1: I'm basically making resolutions all the time, NonStop. So I

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Speaker 1: don't really make New Year's resolutions in the traditional way.

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Speaker 1: But what I often do, and I did it for

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Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, is I'll pick like a one word theme

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Speaker 1: for the year that then I try to live up too,

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Speaker 1: or I try to have its shape, because I'm basically

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Speaker 1: making resolutions and trying resolutions as part of my writing

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Speaker 1: and as part of my research and as part of

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Speaker 1: my podcasting all the time. So I'm just like a

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Speaker 1: rolling stone of gathering resolutions, I guess gathering resolutions. So

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Speaker 1: that's how you're thinking about it for next year? Then too?

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Speaker 1: Are you coming up with a year theme for next

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Speaker 1: year or something? Right, I might have the same theme

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Speaker 1: for last year as I did for this year, which

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Speaker 1: is repurposing. I need to repurpose stuffs because I've done

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Speaker 1: some repurposing, but I have more purposing that I can do,

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Speaker 1: so that's gonna be my theme. The thing, if you've

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Speaker 1: been blogging for years, you keep repurposing that content. Yes, yes, exactly.

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Speaker 1: So should people who aren't upholders, though, should they even

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Speaker 1: try to make New Year's resolutions? Or is that going

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Speaker 1: to be just a cause of unhappiness. Well, I think

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Speaker 1: the thing is make it in your resolution if it's

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Speaker 1: something that appeals to you and feels like it's going

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Speaker 1: to work for you. So if you're a questioner and

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Speaker 1: you're like, why would I make a Newyear's resolution, there's

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Speaker 1: no magic to new year's resolution if it doesn't have

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Speaker 1: magic to you. I think for a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: there's something very auspicious about starting the first day of

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Speaker 1: the year with something, and it's a catalyst for self reflection,

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Speaker 1: you know, just like your birthday is or you know,

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Speaker 1: an important anniversary in your life. So I think they

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Speaker 1: can be useful to you if you find it useful.

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Speaker 1: But if you kind of think, oh gosh, just the

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Speaker 1: idea of news resolution seems stupid to me, don't force

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Speaker 1: yourself to do it because there is there's nothing magical

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Speaker 1: about it. If you are an obliger who wants to

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Speaker 1: make a new Year's resolution, but you're afraid you're gonna

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Speaker 1: let yourself down again, here is the secret. This is

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Speaker 1: the magic answer to obligers who are frustrated because they

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Speaker 1: can't meet their inner expectations. They have to create outer accountability.

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Speaker 1: So if you want to read more, join a book group.

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Speaker 1: If you're my friend who could go running with a

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Speaker 1: track team. It's like join a class and work out

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Speaker 1: with a teacher, or work out with a trainer, or

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Speaker 1: work out with a friend who's going to be annoyed

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Speaker 1: if you don't show up or figure out some other

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Speaker 1: kind of outer accountability, because that's what allows obligers to

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Speaker 1: follow through. If you don't have that autter accountability, if

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Speaker 1: it's just an inner expectation, then typically obligers will not succeed.

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Speaker 1: So if you're going to do it, do it in

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Speaker 1: a way that set yourself up for success. You know,

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of times people set themselves up

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Speaker 1: the way that works for someone else, and then they're

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Speaker 1: frustrated when it doesn't work for them. And same thing

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Speaker 1: with a rebel. You might say to yourself, you know what,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go this whole year and not have one

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Speaker 1: drink of alcohol and it's going to be amazing and

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Speaker 1: nobody thinks I can and I'm going to blow them

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Speaker 1: away and just watch me. That could be exciting and

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Speaker 1: fun for a rebel, But if it's not, don't assume

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Speaker 1: that there's something wrong with you or that you should

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Speaker 1: do something because everybody says you should. It's like, well,

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Speaker 1: these things work for some people some of the time,

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Speaker 1: they don't work for everybody all the time. So it

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Speaker 1: sounds like rebels need to have a foil to sort

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Speaker 1: of throw themselves against hissen, Like, oh, my my friend

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Speaker 1: says I'll never succeed, so I'll show him, Well that

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Speaker 1: can work. That often can work with rebels, and you know,

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Speaker 1: and and there's sort of a question that people ask me,

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Speaker 1: like is it manipulative to say things like that to

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Speaker 1: rebel if you're trying to like ignite their spirit of

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Speaker 1: resistance in a positive way. But also rebels can do

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Speaker 1: kind of the opposite for themselves. They can set themselves

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Speaker 1: a challenge like that or kind of tap into that

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Speaker 1: all show them energy. But they can also tap into

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Speaker 1: their identity, because putting your identity forth into the world

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Speaker 1: is very important for rebels. So it's sort of like, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm an athlete. I've always been an athlete,

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Speaker 1: you know, and what do athletes do. Athletes exercise comes

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Speaker 1: snow or come rain. You know, I'm an athlete, an

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Speaker 1: athlete exercises or I'm a perform and what do performers

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Speaker 1: do performers practice. I need, you know. I choose to

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Speaker 1: practice regularly because I'm a performer. I want to put

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Speaker 1: my stuff out into the world, and this is how

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Speaker 1: I'm going to do the kind of work that i

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Speaker 1: want to do, and I want to show what I'm

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Speaker 1: capable of. So it's sort of either identity or yeah,

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Speaker 1: kind of like, yeah, you can't tell me what to do,

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Speaker 1: I'll show you. So, speaking as an upholder here with

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Speaker 1: you as well, somebody wrote on my blog I was

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Speaker 1: writing about one of my crazy upholder habits, you know

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Speaker 1: it running daily or reading or whatever it was, and

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Speaker 1: the commenter said something with long lines as well, it's

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Speaker 1: easy for you to do that because you're an upholder,

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Speaker 1: And I actually kind of bristled a bit at that

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Speaker 1: because I'm like, well, I'm still the one who set

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Speaker 1: my alarm for four point thirty to get up and

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Speaker 1: run on the day when I was traveling all day.

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Speaker 1: I didn't think that was easy. I just did it.

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Speaker 1: So do you think it's easy or do you think

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Speaker 1: it's just something? I think it comes more easily. I

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Speaker 1: think it does come more easily. I think other tendency

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Speaker 1: these would would have different issues with that, and you know,

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Speaker 1: and merely the fact that you're doing it kind of

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Speaker 1: shows that. But whatever it is, that, whatever it is

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Speaker 1: that a person needs, that is what you have. And

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Speaker 1: most people don't experience that. And I think, as the

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Speaker 1: Polders were, like, well, if other people would just like

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Speaker 1: make it to do list, set their alarm, go to

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Speaker 1: bed on time, they can do it too. It's like yo,

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Speaker 1: they don't, right, Like, what is the common experience of mankind?

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Speaker 1: The common experience of mankind is that that's not enough

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Speaker 1: for most people. So what so what's missing? You know?

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Speaker 1: And I also think the problem one of the issues

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Speaker 1: that people have with upholders is that we're not saying this,

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Speaker 1: but they may think to themselves, the obliged to the

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Speaker 1: question of the rebel, they might think like, well, if

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Speaker 1: she can do it, what's wrong with me? I must

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Speaker 1: there must be something wrong with me. I must lack

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Speaker 1: will power, I must lack self control. I must not

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Speaker 1: be able to make time for myself. I must not

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Speaker 1: be able to set my priorities correctly. I must be

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Speaker 1: late easy. And so to those folks, I say, it's

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Speaker 1: totally expected that something would come easily for Laura, and

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Speaker 1: that wouldn't come easily for you, or that something would

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Speaker 1: come easily for your coworker that wouldn't come easily for you,

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Speaker 1: or something came easily to you in college that isn't

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Speaker 1: coming easily to you now. For reasons that we can understand,

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Speaker 1: there's something wrong with you. You don't need to change,

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Speaker 1: you know, you know you're not lazy. It's just that

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Speaker 1: you need to have circumstances set up in a way

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Speaker 1: that are going to allow you to achieve your aims.

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Speaker 1: So you might need a different kind of infrastructure or

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Speaker 1: explanation than someone like Laura or Sarah or Gretchen would

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Speaker 1: need to achieve the same aim And you know, actually

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Speaker 1: listening to your podcast and reading your books has made

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Speaker 1: me think about that in others and to maybe be

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Speaker 1: a little bit more sympathetic than I would have been before.

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Speaker 1: And it's interesting, you know, the running analogy again, my

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Speaker 1: husband is a very talented runner. I'm not, but I'm

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Speaker 1: like disciplined, and for years he actually kind of like

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Speaker 1: put it to the side, not because he's in a bladger.

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Speaker 1: I think he's definitely a questioner, but because he didn't

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Speaker 1: like have like a reason, you know, And it's only

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Speaker 1: been since he sort of set very specific goals. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I want to get this much faster by the time

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Speaker 1: I'm this age because I want to do this. That

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Speaker 1: he's been able to be successful and it's not that

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Speaker 1: he's lazier or couldn't do it before. It was just

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Speaker 1: like he needed to frame it in a very different way. So,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I've found your your framework to work really

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Speaker 1: well in helping me be more well. Yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: it definitely gives you an idea of how people could

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Speaker 1: see something and you have a perspective and how people

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Speaker 1: might view a situation in a different way or face

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Speaker 1: different kinds of challenges. I'm married to a questioner too,

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Speaker 1: and it's like, the minute he makes up his mind,

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Speaker 1: he can do anything he wants, But until he makes

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Speaker 1: up his mind, he's not going to do it. And

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Speaker 1: that used to sort of drive me crazy, but now

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Speaker 1: I'm like, that's it. I don't have to think it personally,

425
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:51,719
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with me. This is the way

426
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,680
Speaker 1: he is with everybody in the world, So just like,

427
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,800
Speaker 1: let him go about his business his way, let him

428
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,240
Speaker 1: do his research. Any tricks, any tricks that you've learned

429
00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:06,560
Speaker 1: in that particular pairing that I could harness when it

430
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 1: comes to your household to give you an example of

431
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,200
Speaker 1: something that just happened. So there was this boring bureaucratic

432
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:13,640
Speaker 1: form that we had to fill out. In a true

433
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:15,720
Speaker 1: upholder fashion, I was like, let me just go ahead

434
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:17,600
Speaker 1: and do this and get this crossed off our list

435
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,000
Speaker 1: so we don't have to think about it. So I'll

436
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:20,840
Speaker 1: fill it out, being the good soldier that I am.

437
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:22,600
Speaker 1: This is why it's nice to be married to an upholder.

438
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:24,439
Speaker 1: So I'm filling it out and it asked me for

439
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,800
Speaker 1: his work address. So I called him and I say, hey, Jamie,

440
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,080
Speaker 1: what's your work address? And what does he say to me?

441
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,720
Speaker 1: Why do you want to know? And before before I

442
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:36,359
Speaker 1: knew about the worre tendencies, I think I would have

443
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,440
Speaker 1: said something like does everything have to be a discussion?

444
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,840
Speaker 1: Can't you just answer simple question? Here? I am filling

445
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:42,720
Speaker 1: out this form and you're just like slowing me down.

446
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:44,679
Speaker 1: I just want to get it done. What does this

447
00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 1: mean about our marriage? But now I'm like, he's a questioner,

448
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,680
Speaker 1: and what I should have said is, hey, Jamie, I'm

449
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,200
Speaker 1: filling out that boring bureaucratic form, what's your work address?

450
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 1: Because all he wants to know is why should I

451
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,560
Speaker 1: tell you? Why do you want to know? Why? Just

452
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:02,399
Speaker 1: tell me why? Or like I want you to do that,

453
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,359
Speaker 1: like or like. He a weird thing about questions. I

454
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:07,040
Speaker 1: don't know if you've noticed this in your husband, but

455
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,679
Speaker 1: a lot of questioners don't like ask answering questions. This

456
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,720
Speaker 1: is ironic and deeply annoying, but they don't like answering questions.

457
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,919
Speaker 1: And my husband really manifests this pattern. He will not

458
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 1: answer questions and it makes me crazy. But I've learned

459
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,000
Speaker 1: that if I give him a reason about whine asking,

460
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,240
Speaker 1: I'm much more likely to get an answer, like what time, like,

461
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 1: instead of saying, like, what time are we going to brunch?

462
00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:28,800
Speaker 1: Because he won't tell me. He like, I know, it

463
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:30,440
Speaker 1: makes him sound like a big jerk. He just won't

464
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,480
Speaker 1: tell me. But if I said, what time are we

465
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:34,880
Speaker 1: going to brunch? Because I'm wondering whether I have time

466
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:36,879
Speaker 1: to go to the gym, then he would tell me

467
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,400
Speaker 1: because then he understands why I'm asking. But he won't

468
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:45,479
Speaker 1: just tell me because I want to know, can we

469
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 1: clean the basement this weekend? Because we're having people over

470
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 1: in two weeks and we're gonna need to store the

471
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 1: bicycles there. Okay, that makes sense because he might say

472
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,359
Speaker 1: to a question or we need to clean out the basement,

473
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 1: and they're thinking, why do we need to clean out

474
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 1: the basement? We never use the basement, Like that's a

475
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,640
Speaker 1: big waste of our time, Like why would I do that?

476
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 1: This comes up a lot with children. Questioner children often

477
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,640
Speaker 1: are perceived by teachers and coaches and adults as being

478
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 1: disrespectful or stubborn or like not you know, not getting

479
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 1: with a program, because they're like, well, why would I

480
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 1: learn how to write cursive if I'm just going to

481
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 1: use my laptop for the rest of my life. Why

482
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 1: do I have to learn the multiplication tables? If I

483
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:27,199
Speaker 1: can look it up in my phone? Why do you know?

484
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 1: Why do I have to learn about ancient Mesopotamia? There

485
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 1: are there are answers to these questions, and a questioner

486
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 1: child is going to do much better if you explain, yeah,

487
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 1: I know this this book report seems really boring to you,

488
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 1: and like you, I know you've read the book, so

489
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 1: why should you have to do this book? This is

490
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: really teaching you these important skills, and this is why

491
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 1: we ask sports graders to do this because it's going

492
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,159
Speaker 1: to Actually, this is why you're being asked to do

493
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 1: this assignment, because if they think it's dumb, they're not

494
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: going to want to do it. If they understand why

495
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,160
Speaker 1: they're being asked to do something, they're much more likely

496
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,439
Speaker 1: to follow along as an upholder. I'm not sure I

497
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 1: want to clean out the basement either, but that's a

498
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 1: different matter. I found. I made my husband take the

499
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,400
Speaker 1: four tendencies quiz the other day and I got quite

500
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,920
Speaker 1: a surprise. Yes, I would have pegged him as either

501
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 1: a question or possibly even a rebel, and the answer

502
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 1: was obliged to unpack that one. I still haven't fully

503
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 1: unpacked that. But do some obligers not necessarily oblige to

504
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,159
Speaker 1: their most like intimate inner family circle because it's like

505
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 1: marriage obliger shouldn't he be he me? That is a

506
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 1: very interesting question. Well, it's actually quite romantic because to

507
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 1: an obliger way, they meet outer expectations, but they struggle

508
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: to meet inner expectations. And really with their sweetheart's fouse,

509
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:44,879
Speaker 1: they're like, honey, I'm going to ignore you just the

510
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 1: way I would ignore me, because you're so close to me,

511
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 1: You're like me, so you're in it a very nice

512
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 1: way been obliger like a sweethearts, but doesn't make a

513
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: good accountability partner, and they will be ignored. So and

514
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 1: this can be fluid. So like I have a friend

515
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: who's an obliger. He's the greatest guy of all time,

516
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 1: like terrific, terrific guy, and he will do anything that

517
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: his wife asks, unless unless his children are ask him

518
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 1: to do something, in which case he will meet what

519
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 1: his children want. And then he'll do anything that his

520
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: children want unless his client needs something, and then it's

521
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 1: everything for the client. Like he literally has a picture

522
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: of himself on the phone closing a deal while his

523
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,959
Speaker 1: wife is in the hospital giving a baby, having a baby,

524
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 1: and so he's like anything for the client. So whatever

525
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: is most outer will take precedent, and so that is

526
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: moving depending on a situation. So you might have like

527
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 1: a wife who will oblige her husband unless they have

528
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,919
Speaker 1: guests over, in which case she'll ignore her husband and

529
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 1: do what the guests want because they're more outer. So

530
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: this is something to really think about. If you're an obliger,

531
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 1: you're dealing with an abliger, which is what is the

532
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: form of accountability that's going to work because it really

533
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 1: varies dramatically among obligers. Some obligers can be accountable to

534
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,919
Speaker 1: their sweetheart. Some obligers can be accountable to like an

535
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:01,959
Speaker 1: imaginary thing like future Gretchen does want to go, well,

536
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: wish that I had gone for run, So now Gretchen

537
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: has to do it because I don't want to disappoint

538
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 1: future Gretchen. So that's like an imaginary kind of outer

539
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,400
Speaker 1: accountability to myself. It's amazing that obligers can use them.

540
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 1: Some obligers can use money, like I'm going to pay

541
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,679
Speaker 1: for a class. Some obligers, though it doesn't matter to

542
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 1: them if they've paid money. They're almost like, well, if

543
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,159
Speaker 1: I paid, it's like as good as going. So in

544
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 1: that case, yeah, you have to pay attention to what

545
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 1: actually is going to do or like some obligers could

546
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 1: feel accountable to an auto reminder through an app like

547
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,400
Speaker 1: don't forget to take your blood pressure medication. That would

548
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 1: remind them. Other obligers they would just ignore that. It

549
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 1: doesn't feel like real accountability to them. So you have

550
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 1: to be very aware of what's going to trip that

551
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 1: valuable sense of outer accountability for you. All right, well,

552
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 1: I'll view it in that light. That would be a

553
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 1: much more charitable way to view it. But it's because

554
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: we're so close that he is that he can ignore me.

555
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 1: So we wanted to pivot a little bit more to

556
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 1: We always like talking about schedules and work life combinations

557
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,640
Speaker 1: and how we make it work on this podcast because

558
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 1: we are the best of both worlds, people who enjoy

559
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 1: their families and enjoy their work too. So what does

560
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: your normal workday schedule look like these days? S gratuaates, Well,

561
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 1: I think you will fill my pain because as an upholder,

562
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: of course, I would prefer that every day unfolded exactly

563
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: the same and like the life of a Benedictine monk

564
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 1: sounds incredibly enticing to me, where like it's very like

565
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 1: everything has its place and it's on the calendar and

566
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: everything gets done. But I have my days very wid widely.

567
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: I always get up at six am, no matter what.

568
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: I walk my dog and then I do what a

569
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 1: lot of productivity experts tell you not to do, which

570
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: is I begin my day. And I'm a morning person,

571
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: so in my morning is when I met my most

572
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 1: creative and productive. But I can't do anything until I've

573
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: gone through my email and social media, So I do that,

574
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 1: then I will walk with my daughter to school, and

575
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: then I either exercise or you know, do interviews, or

576
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 1: plan my podcast or do writing. Every day has to

577
00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 1: be slotted indifferently depending on what's happening that day, which

578
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: does kind of drag me crazy. But about you plan

579
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: ahead for it, it's probably an elaborate absolutely absolutely well.

580
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,479
Speaker 1: And I think one thing that I think comes as

581
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: surprise to a lot of people is that upholders are

582
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: actually very good at taking time for themselves because to them,

583
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: the dutity yourself is just as important as duty to others,

584
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 1: and if something that's on the schedule, you'll do it.

585
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 1: So if I'm like I'm going to read on the

586
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 1: couch for four hours on Saturday, like that as important

587
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: to me as going to a dentist appointment, you know,

588
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: like I'm going to do that. And they did this

589
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 1: interesting study on Facebook looking at people who are highly conscientious,

590
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 1: which I think we're upholders, and they found that they

591
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 1: had a very high incidence of using words like weekend

592
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: and leisure and fun. And that wasn't surprising to me

593
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: because I'm like, upholders are good at that, oblagers are

594
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: the ones that have trouble taking time for themselves and

595
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 1: they have to use outer accountability even to take time

596
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 1: for themselves. So do you plan your weekends ahead of time?

597
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: I don't have an idea of what like what I

598
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: want to happen, but yeah, like I know what I'm

599
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: doing I'm going to be doing out any particular time. Yeah, absolutely,

600
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: I walk there. You know, I'm skipping around in our

601
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: questions here slightly. But one thing, Sarah about it gought

602
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: up earlier. Your children are on the older end of

603
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: the scale scale, you know, certainly since time when you

604
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 1: wrote the Happiness Project that you write about your baby

605
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: who is now I'm saying like a teenager. Yeah, so

606
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,719
Speaker 1: has things change in terms of how you schedule your

607
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: time and make your work and life work together now

608
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: that your kids are much older? Has that changed a

609
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: lot for you? I think the biggest difference is the

610
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: degree to which their daily schedule influences my daily schedule.

611
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,479
Speaker 1: So their school schedule still influences my schedule. When are

612
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: they on spring break? When do they have holiday winter break?

613
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: When is their summer? Like that still has a big thing.

614
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 1: But like I remember, I saw Anna Quinlan speak and

615
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: she said that, and she's like, you know, in her sixties.

616
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: She said she still stops writing every day at three

617
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: fifteen because for so many years her kids would walk

618
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: in the door and then that was the end of

619
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: her work day. She said she now it's like her

620
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: brain just shuts off at three fifteen, even though she

621
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: doesn't have kids coming back, and so one thing is

622
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: like the day just feels a lot looser because like

623
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: one of my daughters is in college and the other

624
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 1: one is in seventh grade, So she can walk home

625
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: by herself and she can like manage herself. I don't

626
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: have to make sure that she's covered in some way

627
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: or like you know, who's picking her up, what's happening.

628
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: I know that she could take care of herself. We

629
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: live very close to school, so for us that's like

630
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: a nine block walk, so it's on and so that

631
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 1: that's kind of a or like she can walk to

632
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: school by herself. So like if I wanted to do

633
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: an eight am interview, I could do, like I'm talking

634
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: to somebody in the UK, So if we want to

635
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:38,719
Speaker 1: do it really early in the morning, I can do

636
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: that and just say to her, oh, honey, you're just

637
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: gonna walk to school by yourself today. She's like, Okay,

638
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 1: that's fine. So it just gives me a lot more

639
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: give in my schedule, in my daily schedule. Yeah. And

640
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 1: another thing we wanted to ask you about. I know

641
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: you spent a lot of time on the road since

642
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: the Happiness Project came out in twenty ten, speaking at

643
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 1: a lot of conferences. Yes, and fortunate to see you

644
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: get a couple of them. It's been great. But do

645
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 1: you have any tips, any tips for working parents who

646
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: do need to travel a lot for work, things that

647
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: sort of keep you going with your own productivity managing

648
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: family life at the same time. Yeah, that is really

649
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,479
Speaker 1: that is really a challenge. And again that's easier when

650
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: your children are older, because I used to have to

651
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 1: make practically like hour by hour schedules for everybody, you know,

652
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: while I was gone. One thing I would say, just

653
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 1: in terms of like making time for yourself. One thing

654
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: that I a rule that I picked up from a

655
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: friend of mine that I love is when I'm traveling,

656
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 1: Like while I'm in transit, I only read for fun.

657
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 1: I don't do any work, I don't do email, I

658
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: don't do anything. I just read for fun. So I

659
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: get a lot of really fun reading done while I'm traveling,

660
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: and it makes traveling much more pleasant. So I like,

661
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 1: once I'm there, I'll do email and work in a

662
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 1: hotel room or wherever I am, But I don't do

663
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: it like while I'm in the hotel, while I'm in

664
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: the airport, or while I'm flying, and that I love that.

665
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: You know, I think it's hard. I'd be curious about

666
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: at your experiences. I think it's hard to really be

667
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: at top efficiency while traveling. And I've and every every

668
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: I've had so many book tours, and i travel all

669
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 1: the time, and I'm always like, I'm just sitting in

670
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: a hotel room. Why can't I focus the way I

671
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: can focus at home? And somehow I just can't seem

672
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: to turn that time into as efficient time as I

673
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: can at home. So I'm sorry. I always I am

674
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to make the best use

675
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 1: of that time. Well, it's funny. One of our recent guests,

676
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: who's a genetics professor, is the exact opposite of you,

677
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 1: and that she says she works. She does a lot

678
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 1: of international travel, so very long flights and such. She's like,

679
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: I work my butt off on the plane and then

680
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 1: I relax when I get there because I feel like

681
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: I did all my the essential work. So I guess

682
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: it just means no. And I think that's a really

683
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: important point, which is that And I think this is

684
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: so true in habits and happiness and the four tendancies everything.

685
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: There is no one right way, there's no one best way.

686
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: There's no magic one size fits all solution because we're

687
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: all different. And so it's sort of like like for me,

688
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 1: working while traveling wasn't working very and so somebody said

689
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 1: try this, and I'm like, well, this works much better

690
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 1: for me. So something's not working, try something else, Like

691
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,719
Speaker 1: don't keep saying I could have kept saying to myself

692
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: like I should be more efficient, like I should really

693
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: buckle down. But I'm like, you know what, it's not

694
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: a good time for me to be doing this. I'm

695
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: going to do something else that's also a very high

696
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,479
Speaker 1: value to me. And so now I'm going to get

697
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 1: it into my life in a different way that works

698
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: much better. And so that's a great example of exactly

699
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: the opposite could work for you, you know, and it's

700
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: worth experimenting. If something's not working, well, I'm going to

701
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 1: take my permission from that from Gretchen to read for

702
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: fun on the plane. I was feeling bad about it too.

703
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: Now I'm going to have to be okay with it.

704
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: So Gretchen, we have this segment at the end of

705
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: our main segment every time where we do our Love

706
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 1: of the Week. So we're hoping we can keep you

707
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: for like two more minutes while we do our Love

708
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: of the Week. So mine is I'll guess travel related

709
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: with that. I'm gonna say the Amtrak quiet power. Do

710
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: you go on the Amtrak quiet I thought you would

711
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: because otherwise I feel like when I'm not the quiet

712
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: car because it's a full train or whatever, I'm always

713
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: saying next to some jerk who wants to call absolutely

714
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: everybody he knows in the course of like a trip

715
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: from Philadelphia to New York, and I'm sitting next to

716
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: him listening to him talk about, like, you know, really

717
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: scintillating stuff, and I go crazy, So quiet car all

718
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 1: the way, Sarah, what do you have this week? Well

719
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 1: that has nothing to do with travel, but it is

720
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:20,959
Speaker 1: timely as this episode is going to air right around

721
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: the New Year, and my Love of the Week is

722
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: the tradition of doing family photo calendars as a gift,

723
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: and maybe by putting this in this podcast, it'll mean

724
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: I'll have my done, because it's a little bit of

725
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: a race since I'm due in like three weeks, and

726
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know how how much I'll have

727
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: my stuff together in December to do it, But anyway,

728
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: it brings me so much joy to give it to

729
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 1: people and to see my family members every month. So

730
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 1: that's my love of thee Gretchen, how about you. My

731
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 1: love of the week is I just discovered a novelist

732
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 1: that I love that I had never heard of, and

733
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 1: somebody was like, you got to read the novels of

734
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 1: Scarlett Thomas, and I was like, okay, So I read

735
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: one and I'm going through every single one of her

736
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 1: novels and it's rare that there's somebody who you really

737
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: want to read every single book they've written. And she's

738
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 1: also wrote a book about writing called Monkeys with Typewriters

739
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: or Typewriters with Monkeys, I can't remember. And I bought

740
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: that too, though I haven't read that because I'm so

741
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: entranced by her fiction. But I'm just so excited to

742
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,919
Speaker 1: have a new author to discover and she's kind of

743
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,320
Speaker 1: like if you like tenth of December or Cloud Atlas,

744
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 1: I would say she's kind of in that vibe and

745
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: really really good. So that has made me very happy. Okay,

746
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 1: we're writing that one down. We always book recommendations. Yeah, well, Gretchen,

747
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being willing to be interviewed

748
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 1: by us. We really oh so much fun. I never

749
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 1: get to talk to two A folders. This is great.

750
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 1: That's a funny thing is just for our listeners. So

751
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: you know, we scheduled this at three o'clock that we

752
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 1: would have our call, and by two fifty five or

753
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,760
Speaker 1: something we were all on the line. It's pretty funny.

754
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: That is despite technical difficiony yep, we need it if

755
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 1: you send me an evil but like, hey, can it

756
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: be at three thirty? I would have been like, what

757
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 1: it was? Three? How can I say? So? Restibility is

758
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: not our strong suit, but we will show up when

759
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 1: we said we'll show up. Not at all, no, exactly.

760
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, well, thank you so much. This has

761
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 1: been I mean, if you could have told me I

762
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: would have been on this podcast doing this with both

763
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: of you five years ago, I would have been floored.

764
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,399
Speaker 1: So thank you. Again so much. All right, it's time

765
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 1: for our listener Q and a segment. We got one

766
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 1: from Nikki this week, and that is another childcare question,

767
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: very popular topic around here. What are your systems processes

768
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 1: for onboarding and training new childcare providers, particularly people you'll

769
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: be using more occasionally, not daily or even weekly. So

770
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 1: you want to go first, sure, I think we probably

771
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: do pretty much the same thing. You know, I've had

772
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 1: a lot of sort of occasional date night sitters over

773
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 1: the years, and it first, it depends if they come

774
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 1: through a personal referral. Like if it's a personal referral,

775
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: then probably the first few steps aren't necessary. But you know,

776
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: I do a phone interview with them, I ask for references.

777
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: I call their references. If everything checks out, I have

778
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: them come over and sit for the kids while I'm there,

779
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 1: and you know, for like an hour or so, just

780
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 1: while I'm in the house, so you can see how

781
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 1: it's going if it all seems to be going well,

782
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: and if it does, then I might have them come

783
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 1: back later, you know, to sit a little longer. Then

784
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 1: you know, when I leave the house for a little bit,

785
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 1: you know, I'm paying them for all this time that

786
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 1: they're sitting because it's basically a babysitting job. It's just that,

787
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 1: you know, I haven't committed to anything yet, so it's

788
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 1: a little low stakes way to start, how about you. Yeah,

789
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: I've definitely done that, and you know, instead of even

790
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: thinking of it as a trial, just sort of thinking

791
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:47,320
Speaker 1: of it as like, oh, well, I get some mother's

792
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 1: help or time to see if this works. So I

793
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,839
Speaker 1: could maybe like work out at home while they're here,

794
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 1: sort of do things where I can observe but not

795
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 1: be you know, completely involved, and then answer questions and

796
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 1: then move to actual real sessions. I I would do

797
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,479
Speaker 1: have to say now that, like my oldest can talk

798
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 1: and tell me things, I feel less anxious about babysitters

799
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:09,399
Speaker 1: in general than I did when they were like non

800
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,359
Speaker 1: verbal and you're like, I don't know what's going on,

801
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 1: like Anabell would tell me, you know. So I do

802
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 1: think as your kids get older that it might be

803
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 1: a little bit easier. But I do think the sort

804
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: of trial run while you're there is very very helpful.

805
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 1: And the few times that I've gotten people off of

806
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:26,919
Speaker 1: I actually haven't done it that much. I've been lucky

807
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 1: enough to find referrals after we found our nanny fromcare

808
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 1: dot com. We've mostly found everybody else socially. But if

809
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: I you know, when you do get them off of

810
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: a website, so important not to just even email the

811
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 1: references call them. You want to actually hear with their

812
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 1: voices and to make sure it's not like actually their

813
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 1: mom with a fake email address like you don't know,

814
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 1: so to actually speak with references, to hear about the

815
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 1: person that's going to be with your kids. Yeah, and

816
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: then just trying them out is you know, you see

817
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 1: a lot in person as well about how it's going

818
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 1: to go, and that's probably good way to ease into it. Well,

819
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 1: this has been Best of Both Worlds Episode twenty one.

820
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,240
Speaker 1: We've mostly been talking New Year's resolutions with Gretchen Rubin

821
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: turn in next week when we'll be back for more

822
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 1: on making work and life fit together. Thanks for listening.

823
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com

824
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 1: or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can

825
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has

826
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 1: been the Best of Both Worlds podcasts. Please join us

827
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 1: next time for more on making work and life work together.